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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 2009

Annual Report and Accounts 2007: Discussion with Private Residential Tenancies Board.

We will now discuss the 2007 annual report and accounts of the Private Residential Tenancies Board with members of the board. I welcome Mr. Tom Dunne, chairman of the board of directors, Ms Anne Marie Caulfield, director, and Ms Carmel Diskin, Mr. Frank Gallagher, Mr. Kathryn Ward and Ms Máire O'Mahony, assistant directors, and thank them for attending. The format of the meeting will be that we will hear a presentation by the delegates which will be followed by a question and answer session with members of the joint committee.

Before the delegates begin the presentation, I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee and would like to begin by introducing the committee to the chairman and senior management of the Private Residential Tenancies Board. The chairman of the board of directors is Mr. Tom Dunne who was chairperson of the Commission on the Private Rented Residential Sector which reported in July 2000. He is also head of the school of real estate and construction economics at the Dublin Institute of Technology. I am the director of the Private Residential Tenancies Board and accompanied by four assistant directors. Ms Carmel Diskin has responsibility for registrations and the enforcement of registrations; Mr. Frank Gallagher has responsibility for disputes at mediation and adjudication stages; Ms Kathryn Ward has responsibility for tribunals, the enforcement of determination orders and judicial reviews and Ms Máire O'Mahony has responsibility for our finance, human resources and ICT sections.

The Private Residential Tenancies Board was established in September 2004 under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. Its functions are to maintain a national register of private rental tenancies, provide a dispute resolution service, conduct research and advise the Minister on policy matters that impact on the sector.

It is important to recognise that the Private Residential Tenancies Board has replaced the courts for most landlord and tenant disputes. Prior to this, tenants very rarely had the financial means to take a landlord to court. The Residential Tenancies Act represented a significant change in the private rental sector in that it sought to strengthen the rights of tenants and support a more professional approach by landlords, resulting in a better developed and regulated private rental sector. For the first time the Act placed many aspects of the landlord and tenant relationship on a legal footing. In what had been a relatively unregulated sector the Act introduced a structured approach at a detailed level. For example, it introduced security of tenure for tenants, with the introduction of four-year tenancy cycles after an initial trial period of six months. It sets out a list of explicit obligations on both landlords and tenants. It regulates the circumstances in which tenancies may be terminated, sets out the notice periods which increase with the length of tenure that must be observed by both landlords and tenants and prescribes the format the notices take. It addresses the issue of security deposits and the circumstances in which they can be retained. All aspects of the functions of the board and its role in dispute resolution are set out in detail.

Given the fundamental change the Act has brought to the private rental sector, it is not surprising that the Private Residential Tenancies Board has faced considerable challenges in its first five years in operation. It has taken some time for both landlords and tenants to become familiar with their obligations. Demand for the board's services is increasing year on year.

I will take the committee briefly through each area of operation. At the end of the statement we will take any additional questions members may have on particular aspects of our work.

On registrations, as of the end of May, there were 217,276 tenancies registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board. This figure represents 106,981 landlords and 373,975 tenants.

Extracts from the register are available on our website. A copy of the register is made available to each local authority twice yearly to assist them in their responsibilities with regard to inspections and to enforcement of minimum standards in rented accommodation.

The standard registration fee is €70. Landlords are given one month within which to register, after which time an additional late fee of €70 also applies. A composite fee of €300 is payable where multiple units in one building are being registered at the same time, within the time limit and by the one landlord. The fees have not changed in line with inflation since the PRTB was established in 2004.

Since April of 2009 four sevenths of the registration fees is retained by the PRTB to defray operating costs. Previously this was set at two sevenths. The remainder of the registration fee is allocated to the local authorities, on foot of specific payment directions by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, to meet the cost of inspections of private rented accommodation. To date we have paid €10.6 million to local authorities and we understand, from the Department, that almost 48,000 inspections have been carried out since the PRTB was established. It should be noted that the PRTB has no policymaking or operational role in regard to the inspection of rental properties as this is a local authority function, as is the enforcement of the new building energy rating, BER, system.

The PRTB actively pursues landlords for non-registration, within the constraints of the resources available to us. We follow up on information received from a variety of sources including the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the local authorities, members of the public and elected representatives. The steps being taken by the PRTB are in accordance with the provisions of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and, in particular, sections 144 and 145. They include the obligation to issue notices to landlords of the dwellings in question, and the prosecution of offenders for non-compliance with the registration requirement. To date the board has issued more than 6,700 landlord first notices and 3,400 landlord second notices. A further 1,300 solicitors' letters were also issued and as this generally ensures compliance, we have had to proceed to prosecute in just one case.

The committee will be aware of some criticism of the length of time it takes to register a tenancy with the PRTB, at present 14 weeks. Registration is currently a manual process and is very labour intensive. The PRTB computer system does not have the technical capability at present to provide on-line registration and we have employed agency staff to manually input registration forms. A further difficulty is that up to 33% of registration forms which we receive are incomplete. Each of those forms must be followed up individually with the landlord, since the Act prescribes the information which we require.

The year 2008 was particularly challenging for registrations. Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 provides that tenancies must be re-registered where they have existed for four years. The first four-year cycle expired in August 2008, and to date the PRTB has issued more than 76,000 reminder letters to landlords reminding them of the need to re-register tenancies. This has resulted in a significant increase in the number of tenancy registration applications received. The volume of forms received by the PRTB tends to average about 500 per day. However, during the four months from September to the end of the year, the average volume of forms received each day increased substantially and reached more than 1,000 forms per day for some weeks. This very substantial increase in registration has placed a considerable burden on the staff in registrations and has increased backlogs significantly. It has also affected the rate at which the PRTB can lodge fee income.

The PRTB's ICT strategy provides for web-based, on-line applications to register and on-line payment of fees. The necessary legislation to allow the PRTB to introduce on-line registration has been included as part of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Our request for tender is published on the eGovernment website. We hope that on-line registration, when introduced in early 2010, will provide the solution to the current problems in the registration area.

The Private Residential Tenancies Board replaces the courts in the majority of landlord and tenant disputes. Any registered landlord, and all tenants, whether registered or not, can apply to have a dispute processed by the PRTB. We offer three dispute resolution mechanisms. After mediation or adjudication the outcome can be appealed to a three-person tribunal. After a tribunal has reached a determination the outcome can only be appealed on a point of law to the High Court. The fee is €25 for mediation or adjudication and €40 on appeal to a tribunal.

However, as we offer a quasi-judicial service and since our orders must ultimately be enforced through the courts, we must adhere to the same standards as the courts in terms of fair procedures. The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 is quite complex and very prescriptive in terms of the procedures to be followed in our dispute resolution service in regard to respecting parties' rights regarding 21 days' notice of hearings, submitting evidence, allowing adjournments in special circumstances, allowing 21 days to appeal and so on. We must ensure that our staff and our adjudicators adhere strictly to, and do not exceed, the powers which the Oireachtas has granted us. We may be subject to judicial review in any case.

Another daily challenge we face is tracing respondent parties to a dispute, either tenants who have moved on or landlords who are operating through agents. If we do not have a current address we cannot serve the case papers on the parties. The board of the PRTB is seeking legislative changes to facilitate greater data exchange with other State bodies on address details and to require greater co-operation by agents in providing landlord details.

Demand for our adjudication services has grown from 899 applications in 2005 to 1,646 in 2008. Last year 69% of cases were referred by the tenant, 28% by the landlord and the remainder by third parties. The three largest categories of cases are deposit retention at 43%, invalid notices of termination at 15% — both of which involve complaints by tenants — and complaints relating to rent arrears by landlords at 19%.

Deposit retention complaints have consistently been the single largest category of cases submitted to the PRTB for resolution. Deposit cases increased from 35% to 43% of all cases between 2007 and 2008 and represented nearly 61% of tenants' cases during 2008. In 76% of such cases during 2008, it was determined that landlords should refund to the tenant part or all of the deposits which they had retained.

The PRTB has emphasised repeatedly that deposits are the property of tenants and not landlords and must be returned to tenants in a timely manner. Deposits should only be retained, either fully or partially, where rent or utilities are owing or for damage which is in excess of normal wear and tear. The PRTB is concerned at the serious consequences for tenants, particularly for those on low incomes, of landlords not refunding deposits. Deposit retention cases also contribute to the workload of the PRTB. If landlords returned deposits in a timely manner, significant PRTB resources would be freed up to process other categories of cases.

The PRTB management has recently written to our independent adjudicators reminding them of their discretion to award damages to tenants in addition to ordering the return of wrongfully withheld deposits. Equally, tenants are required under the Act to pay their rent in full and on time, even if there is an ongoing dispute with their landlord. However, the PRTB is aware that some tenants may exploit delays in the PRTB's dispute resolution mechanisms to remain in rental accommodation where they were not paying rent. Earlier this year the board of the PRTB authorised management to prioritise for hearing all cases where it was alleged a tenant remained in a property without paying rent after being served with a valid notice of termination, which amount to 5% of all cases. The board also authorises the prioritisation of alleged cases of illegal eviction and serious anti-social behaviour for early hearing.

Unfortunately, backlogs of cases awaiting hearing developed during the earlier years of the PRTB's existence due to insufficient staffing to meet the emerging work demands at the time. Adjudication processing times have generally improved over the past year from 12 to 18 months to six to 12 months. Up to the end of May 2009 we have set up 624 cases for hearing, an increase of 65% over the same period in 2008. In addition, a significant number of cases are being settled and withdrawn prior to adjudication hearing. However, we appreciate that our processing times are still not satisfactory from our clients' perspective.

We have introduced a range of measures to improve processing times including requiring adjudicators to hear three cases per day for the same daily fee, increased initial screening of disputes applications and earlier contact with case respondents to encourage parties to settle. We have also introduced the ongoing streamlining of internal procedures and processes, including processing targets for staff, a pilot scheme using paper-based adjudications, where appropriate, and a phone queries management system to allow staff to focus on the core work of setting up cases for hearing.

As a result of these initiatives, the PRTB's dispute resolution service has, for the first time, been able to process more than the 30 to 40 new cases it receives each week. We should be able to achieve significant reductions in case processing times and backlogs over the next year, if current staffing levels are maintained. We currently have a backlog of 1,157 dispute cases awaiting hearing. We anticipate that it will take 18 months to work this down to the stage where we will process cases within the five to six month processing time we aim for in the corporate plan.

On tribunals and enforcement, it must be emphasised that cases will take longer to process if either party exercises their automatic right of appeal to a PRTB tribunal. Cases that proceed to tribunal can often be quite complex and it is the client's last opportunity to seek a satisfactory resolution of the dispute. Following the tribunal, parties can only appeal on a point of law to the High Court. The demand for tribunals has also greatly increased. There were 156 appeals to tribunal in the first six months of 2009 compared with 106 for all of 2008. Processing times for tribunals are now approximately two to three months, down from five to eight months, of which 21 days is a statutory notice period.

It is the policy of the PRTB to enforce all of our determination orders. Sections 9 and 126 of the Residential Tenancies Act empower the board to initiate a criminal prosecution in the District Court against a party who fails to comply with determination orders made by the PRTB. Section 124 of the Act permits the initiation of civil proceedings in the Circuit Court to obtain an order directing the non-compliant party to comply with the terms of a determination order.

When we are informed that there has been a failure to comply with a determination order, the PRTB's policy, in the majority of such instances, is to pursue a criminal prosecution against the non-compliant party. It is our experience that the parties are most likely to comply before court proceedings are necessary. However, for over-holding cases, civil proceedings are taken to allow the landlord to regain possession of the property.

From 2005 to date the PRTB has initiated 456 enforcement cases. We have secured in excess of 48 criminal convictions and 46 settlement agreements with 38 civil convictions. A number of cases are still pending. To date we have had 20 judicial reviews in respect of our operational procedures and have been successful in all cases defended. Demand for enforcement has increased substantially in the past year. To date in 2009 we have had 140 enforcement applications, compared with 99 for 2008. Unfortunately, in a small number of cases enforcement can be prolonged where, for example, a tenant remains in a property in spite of a determination order to vacate. Both a court order and the services of the sheriff are required to effect the eviction in such circumstances. Delays of this nature are unfortunately outside the control of the PRTB.

The PRTB has 40 permanent members of staff. This was increased from 26 last year because the PRTB took over responsibility for functions such as ICT, finance, HR and corporate services. At present we also employ 25 staff members from an agency and these staff members are mainly engaged in work relating to the registration process.

We published a corporate plan for 2009 to 2011 last autumn. Each section prepared work programmes for 2009 which were approved by the board of directors. Performance management was formally introduced in January for all staff members and they have all signed up to individual targets. The PRTB has been proactive in engaging with our stakeholders. We have quarterly meetings with tenant and landlord associations and have addressed a number of public meetings of both.

ICT is critical to the future success of the PRTB. At present we do not have on-line facilities, all evidence submitted is maintained on paper files and we do not have a case management system. There is no ICT linkage between the areas. We published an ICT strategy in October 2008. We recruited a very experienced ICT manager from within our core staff of 40 people in December. We have just gone out to tender on the procurement of the new system. The ICT steering committee is chaired by a principal officer from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and its membership includes experienced ICT experts from the Revenue Commissioners, the Local Government Computer Services Board, LGCSB, and the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA. The NTMA has also provided us with independent peer reviews of our process re-engineering and our RFT, free of charge. The LGCSB is providing us with disaster recovery and we are also negotiating other support from it. We hope to provide on-line registration in early 2010 and on-line dispute applications and case management in mid-2010.

The review of the Residential Tenancies Act, which is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, will also be extremely important in terms of learning from the experience of the past five years and streamlining our processes. The current position is that the board of the PRTB has been invited by the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and local services, Deputy Finneran, to give its views on potential changes to the Act. The board is currently considering this and will be making proposals to the Minister by 10 July. We understand that the Department hopes to have preliminary outcomes from this review by the autumn of this year, at which point it will commence the legislative process, as necessary, following on from that review.

That concludes our statement. I thank the members for the opportunity to address the committee and we will now take any questions they may have on the operation of the PRTB.

Before I bring in the members I have an issue to raise relating to the end of 2007 in the annual report. There are many questions relating to the number of inspections taking place. The PRTB had €12.5 million sitting in a bank account and was due to pay local authorities over €7 million. It is no wonder inspections did not happen in these circumstances, given that the fee money had been paid. We find this extraordinary.

It says in the report that the difficulty in processing registrations has also affected the rate at which the PRTB can lodge fee income. It sounds as though there are cheques sitting in the office that are not being sent to the bank in the evening. Can we have an update on the PRTB's current bank balance? It was indicated that €10.6 million was paid to local authorities to date, an increase of €3.6 million from the €7 million paid up to 18 months ago. A figure of €3.6 million in a year and a half is not an awful lot, in view of the fact that fee income per annum is well over €6 million. It sounds as though there is still a lot of money in the bank.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

With regard to fee income, as I mentioned in the opening address, the amount allocated to local authorities has been reduced by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and this reflects many factors. At the moment €10 million due to local authorities is in the bank for inspections. This money is drawn down at a rate determined by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government based on performance in inspections. That is to say, the money is drawn down at the rate at which inspections are carried out by local authorities.

Why not give them the money in advance to help them conduct the inspections? Local authorities are very short of money at the moment and it is hard for them to carry our inspections and run a programme with such limited funds. Why must they seek reimbursement from the PRTB at a later date, given that €10 million is in the account? Could an advance not be given?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

The policy with regard to draw downs is a matter for the Department. The agency pays over the money promptly, when instructed to do so. The committee would have to contact the Department on this matter.

The PRTB does not pay out in advance.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

No, we make payments subsequently, based on the inspections.

There is €10 million sitting in the PRTB's bank account at the moment, though it is due to local authorities in respect of inspections that may not have yet been carried out. Landlords and tenants have paid money to have the inspections done.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

There is €10 million in the bank at present earmarked for local authorities for inspection purposes. The Minister revised the proportion of the registration fees allocated to local authorities in view of the fact that such money is not being drawn down as quickly as had been anticipated. We now get four sevenths of each registration fee to fund the PRTB. That means that the Exchequer grant to the PRTB has been substantially reduced — this year it will be €1 million. It could be argued that there is a substantial saving to the taxpayer in the revision of the proportion of fees.

Where is the saving to the taxpayer because local authorities have not carried out the inspections for which the landlords have paid? It is a funny way of doing business. It is not all within the PRTB's remit. I accept the local authorities and the Department come into it, but that is the outcome. There is €10 million sitting in a bank account that has been handed over by landlords. I would say that is really tenants' money because the landlords collect that money from the tenants. In a way, it is not the landlords' money. We all know about some of the standards. It is still amazing that there is a State body under the remit of Department with €10 million sitting in a bank account and people are screaming for inspections at local level. Mr. Dunne can understand how we are bewildered.

Mr. Tom Dunne

This is an historical legacy. In the 1990s the original registration system was one whereby the local authorities registered properties that were owned by landlords and they received a fee for that. That fee was supposed to be spent on carrying out those inspections. When the registration system under the legislation under which we operate was introduced it was seen fit not to deny that money to the local authorities, but the local authorities would only collect it on foot of the inspections they carried out. What happens to the money is that it sits in our accounts and we earn the interest on it, which goes to keeping the board going and, therefore, reduces the cost to the State of doing that. That money sits in our account until the local authorities carry out inspections and inform the Department and the Department then tells us to pay the money.

It is the system.

Mr. Tom Dunne

It is the system. It is to fund local authorities to do registration. That is the system that exists to fund local authorities.

There might be a question mark from local authorities' perspective as to whether it is a profitable enterprise for them to carry out an inspection and receive €30, €40, €50 or whatever is the amount. There is something in the system that needs to be looked at.

The €10 million still sitting in the bank would cover approximately 30,000 inspections. Has Mr. Dunne a view on this? Maybe he does not want to comment. Are the local authorities interested in doing these inspections? There is money sitting available for the local authorities to do a job and they do not seem to be taking up the job.

Mr. Tom Dunne

I cannot speak on behalf of local authorities.

However, Mr. Dunne can understand how we might think it looks like that. I call Deputy Bannon on this point.

Does the embargo on the recruitment of personnel within local authorities affect manpower to carry out inspections? Many local authorities encounter difficulty in providing personnel to carry out inspections.

I note the demand for the PRTB's adjudication service has grown, from 899 in 2005 to double that number in 2008. There could be a problem in that regard.

Deputy Lynch, just on this topic.

On the inspections, the Official Report will show that I raised the issue of inspections with the Minister at nearly every Question Time because inspection rates across the country have been appalling since 2004 when records began. Some local authorities have not carried out any inspections.

Perhaps the PRTB could clarify the money trail of the inspections so that we get a better idea of it. As I understand it, as part of the registration process, a sum of money — whether the landlord takes it out of the deposit or out of his or her own bank account or wherever — is paid to the PRTB. A specific portion of that registration fee is then ring-fenced for inspections and is lodged by the PRTB on account.

The Minister said on many occasions that he put €3 million or €X million into an inspection regime. That is not the case. The money the Minister has put into inspection is money that is paid as part of the registration process. As I understand it, there is no money provided for inspections other than the money that has accrued as part of the registration process. If I am wrong on that point, I ask the PRTB to let me know because then I would have been wronging the Minister. The Minister has stated there is X amount of money for inspections every year and has made quite a virtue of this in the Dáil. I understand the money for inspections is the money the PRTB has on account that goes out to the local authorities.

To pursue this a little further, there is no uniformity of inspection regimes across the country. Some local authorities are good at inspections and others are poor. There does not seem to be any stimulus with regard to inspections, how they are monitored and how they are carried out.

The PRTB might explain how the money comes out of its account. According to the reply to my most recent parliamentary question to the Minister, extra funding is given to local authorities that have improved their inspection ratio and less money is given to those which have a weak or poor inspection history. I criticise the PRTB, but this is not an area where the PRTB is at fault. The fault lies completely with the Minister. Perhaps the PRTB could talk us through that process.

Does the PRTB meet the relevant official in each local authority responsible for inspections, whether it is the director of services or whomever, once per annum to discuss this? Is it the PRTB function to do so?

It is the function of the Minister and the local authorities.

I ask the PRTB to clarify the matter for the members.

Mr. Anne Marie Caulfield

The inspection regime is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The PRTB's function in the matter is to collect the registration fees and to disburse, when instructed to do so by the Department, amounts owed to the various local authorities. I understand the amounts owed are calculated on the basis of inspections carried out in the previous period. It is a matter for the Department. The PRTB operates in such a way as to collect those fees and to fund inspections.

On meeting local authorities, that is a function of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. However, to ensure that we are kept up to date with what happens, on an ad hoc basis we meet representatives from local authorities from time to time on various issues. For example, Dublin City Council has come in to us on several occasions to give feedback on issues it identifies in the course of such inspections. However, it would not be our remit.

The account the PRTB is holding could be emptied in the morning if the inspection regime was stepped up by local authorities.

Mr. Anne Marie Caulfield

The amount is €10 million.

The Department could state so many inspections were carried out, hand over that money and it will be allocated. The PRTB only holds that money. It has no input into how the inspection regime is run.

Mr. Anne Marie Caulfield

That is correct.

Mr. Tom Dunne

I make one important observation on this. I do not wish to correct the Deputy, but I wish to ensure that it is understood fully that the registration fee is payable by the landlord. Landlords should not take it out of deposits or any other source. There should be no hint that a deposit could be returned to a tenant net of the registration fee.

I welcome the delegation from the PRTB. It is interesting for us to tease out the many issues concerning the private rented sector and the role the PRTB plays. I acknowledge the important role of the PRTB in legislation, especially in dispute resolution.

The representatives from PRTB may correct me if I am wrong, but the three main areas for which it is responsible are: managing a database for registrations and collecting the registration moneys; dispute resolution which the delegation outlined to the committee, and referral for inspection to local authorities which was just spoken about.

The PRTB delegation was present earlier when the Irish Property Owners Association made what I would consider are serious charges against the PRTB. The delegation from the Irish Property Owners Association more or less called the Private Residential Tenancies Board a talking shop. It stated the PRTB was ineffective and inefficient and that there was excessive bureaucracy. It also charged that dispute resolution was taking far longer than the length of time identified in the PRTB's corporate plan — I believe five to six months. Although the PRTB's presentation notes the time taken for such resolution has reduced from a maximum of 18 months to a maximum of 12 months, that is still double the target identified in its corporate plan and a long way off the mark. Moreover, the property owners claim that although the legislation provides that rents must be paid during a dispute, the PRTB is not applying the relevant legislation in many cases. It should consider this point and reply as to its truthfulness.

In respect of the database and registrations, there has been a complete failure and all I have heard this evening are excuses as to why the system is not working. The PRTB surely should have made recommendations to the Department on the barriers or problems that they saw arising such as those pertaining to its information and communications technology systems. It is a lame excuse to state a strategy was published in October 2008 but that the PRTB does not expect delivery until mid-2010. This constitutes two years for delivery of an ICT system that can manage the business the PRTB was established to manage, that is, the database, registrations, case management and so on. This is utterly inefficient and the property owners' charge in this regard is correct. While I am open to correction, I understand it will take two years to put in place the tools the PRTB needs to manage the work it is expected to do. In this day and age, it has 40 staff and 26 agency staff engaged in manual labour. Even as members call on the Government to try to introduce efficiencies in how it runs its business, here is an example of a State body which is tied up in knots with bureaucracy and a lack of resources from an ICT perspective.

As the Chairman noted, it is bewildering to understand why there are such delays in the system. One can imagine the delays when someone manually registers a tenant. If a new tenant is in place by the time the first person has been properly registered, the process must go through the entire mix again and there is no proper flow of information. The PRTB is playing catch-up continually and will find it extremely difficult to catch up until the proposed system is introduced in the middle of next year. I seek the delegates' views on these serious charges, on which I did not comment before hearing their initial responses to them.

I wish to ask a specific question regarding standards. Legislation has been put in place for private rented accommodation which provides for very high standards which everyone supports. Do the same standards apply to local authority accommodation or does the PRTB have a role in this regard? While I suspect it does not, the delegates should clarify this point. While standards apply to the private rental sector, there are no standards for the local authority rented sector. Does the PRTB have a role in this regard?

I welcome the delegation from the PRTB to get the other side of the story. I wish to comment on inspections and standards in general. The delegates should explain how, in the absence of inspections, the PRTB can decide whether proper standards obtain. As for disputes, is the PRTB satisfied that it is handling the process well and is on top of the dispute resolution process? The time factor brought to members' attention is absolutely crazy. In my experience, tenants often are aware that they can play this game and, in many cases, after spending up to two years in rent-free accommodation, they walk away scot free. The delegates should comment on this regard. I may raise a few more issues later.

I call Deputy Flanagan.

I was in the room before Deputy Flanagan.

Deputy Scanlon was the next speaker.

Only one other Deputy was in the room when I arrived for the presentation.

Yes, but the Deputy already has spoken on this section.

No, I spoke on the IPOA.

The Deputy has spoken on this section already.

The Chairman raised a point on which I spoke. I indicated a long time ago.

Deputy Scanlon will be brief and I will then call the Deputy.

I thank our guests for their presentation. It was stated that the situation relating to disputes involving tenants not paying rent is improving. Due to the fact that such individuals are not paying rent, rental agreements are being broken and landlords are obliged to try to have them leave their premises. It was stated that the period for resolving such resolutions has been reduced to between eight to 12 months. Unfortunately, however, a landlord could lose out on €8,000 to €12,000 in mortgage repayments during that period as a result of the rent not being paid.

I understand a review is currently being undertaken. Do our guests hope to improve the situation further or is it the intention to ensure that in cases where disputes arise rent will still be paid, whether to the PRTB, an independent body or whomever? The current position is being abused, which is unfair. In the case to which I referred earlier, the tenants did not pay €10,000 in rent and the landlord was obliged to pay €3,000 to encourage them to vacate the property. That is a great deal of money in anyone's book. It is wrong that behaviour of this type should be allowed to happen. I am not aware of many cases where this occurred. However, if there was one case, there will surely be others. Are people who break every rule and agreement in respect of a particular property pursued, or do they just move to another property, obtain another rent allowance and behave in the same way again? Perhaps this matter should form part of the review.

On anti-social behaviour, everyone must be allowed to live their lives and people must respect the place where they reside and those who are their neighbours. It is important that the rights of people who are trying to survive and pay their mortgages be protected. Again, I am of the view that this matter should be contemplated by the review.

What is the position with regard to rent-to-buy schemes? Under these schemes, people rent a property for two or three years and then subsequently buy it. Are such people, or the landlords or those who own the properties in the first instance, obliged to register with the PRTB?

I am aware of a person who rented out a house four years ago and who was not aware of the existence of the PRTB at the time. The tenant involved is setting his own rent. Is it possible that the landlord might avail of the services of the PRTB at this stage? The solicitor employed by the individual in question has indicated that there is no way to bring the tenant into line, either by asking him to leave the property or to pay his rent. What is the position with regard to landlords who were not aware of the need to register with the PRTB? Is the board in a position to deal with their cases?

Before I call Deputy Ciarán Lynch, I wish to point out that during this session Senator Coffey and Deputies O'Sullivan and Scanlon posed questions and took nine minutes to do so. This is the only delay that occurred during the entire meeting.

The Chairman stated that I had already spoken. I contributed in respect of a matter on which he had invited comments from other members.

Nine minutes is not an excessive delay.

I accept that. However, it was the sequence, not the delay, to which I was referring. The Chairman invited questions from Deputies who were not even present when this session began. He was, therefore, out of order.

I was not out of order. If I was out of order, then the meeting cannot proceed. The sequence is determined by members indicating a wish to contribute rather than by their time of arrival at the meeting. There are people present who have not even indicated.

I indicated a wish to contribute when others were not even present. I do not, therefore, know how they were called ahead of me.

Is the Deputy withdrawing his statement with regard to my being out of order?

I will withdraw the statement.

That is fine.

However, the record of proceedings will attest to what I said.

The Deputy may proceed——

I thank our guests——

——and I will not impose time constraints on him.

I thank the Chairman. We will have a nice cup of tea together after the meeting. Perhaps the Chairman could order some camomile tea for his nerves.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss a number of important matters with the representatives of the PRTB. I have continually requested that they should come before the committee. At the first meeting I attended I requested that they do so. Two years down the line, I welcome the opportunity to have that conversation. In the famous Profumo affair, Mandy Rice-Davies responded to a statement with, "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" There is an aspect of that in the responses of the IPOA this afternoon but there is a degree of validity in what it says. The PRTB and the Residential Tenancies Act should serve landlords and tenants. Members are incorrect to say the Residential Tenancies Act favours tenants. It does not, it is balanced legislation. My party was not part of the Government that introduced the Bill but I see serious merit in the legislation.

The argument comes back to the structure and the processes that emerge from the structure. The structure is undergoing a review at present. I am interested in the views of the PRTB on how the structure and the Act could be improved. Operational anomalies may have developed and could be cleared up by a review of the Act. One of the frustrations I have concerns the delivery of the PRTB. When I table questions to the Minister with responsibility for housing I am told it is an operational matter for the PRTB. When I write to the PRTB I am told that the body is governed by the legislation passed in 2004 and operates within the confines of the Act. I end up chasing the Minister and the PRTB for an answer. The review should lead to the PRTB being included in the scope of the Freedom of Information Act. I am interested in an opinion on the work of the PRTB being under the scope of the Freedom of Information Act, which is not the case at present.

The introduction of the new rent allowance scheme from 1 June has had serious implications for tenants and landlords. One obvious implication is how this is having an impact on contracts between tenants and landlords who made one-year agreements one month previously, which should run for another 11 months. Is this coming to the attention of the PRTB? The tenant may say that he or she cannot pay the sum agreed because of the reduction in the allowance while the landlord is saying that there was a legal agreement for 12 months but the measure on 1 June is creating a shortfall. I am interested in the implications of these cuts for the PRTB and how this fits in with the Residential Tenancies Act. What is the view of the board?

We dealt with the inspection regime, a subject that will continue. A matter not dealt with by the Act and to which I got no answer from the IPOA, is licensee arrangements. Has this matter come before the PRTB? Does the PRTB have a view on it and should it come within the scope of the Act?

The other matter is inspections. The figures show that much of the delay is caused by deposit disputes. What is the view of the PRTB on the implementation of a deposit retention scheme? Would it increase the workload of the PRTB or would it take an area out of the remit of the PRTB? Would it allow the PRTB to operate on red flag issues?

The Chairman opened up this debate on an accounting exercise and costs. I am concerned about one operational element of the PRTB. How much is an adjudicator paid per day? What are the additional costs arising from that adjudication, such as travel costs, and hotel or room hire? What is the ballpark figure for the cost of getting an adjudicator to work on a case? How many cases does an adjudicator deal with currently per day? I accept it has been suggested that in future an adjudicator would deal with three cases per day, but what has been the practice? How many cases per day does an adjudicator complete? When will the target figure of three adjudications per day be reached? That issue is a significant part of the presentation because it not only deals with the backlogs but it also gives an explanation on how much the system costs. I do not imply that it is profitable to have a backlog of adjudications, given the significant payment for them, but that could be suggested from the figures produced.

How many adjudicators are on the books? What is the recruitment process for their appointment? Is there ongoing review of the system? Could anyone in this room apply for the job or does one require a specific qualification? My questions relate to cost, the number of adjudications processed and whether the pool of adjudicators is closed.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

I invite Mr. Dunne to address the questions on rent arrears.

Mr. Tom Dunne

That issue has been the subject of a number of questions asked. It arises where a tenant is overholding on foot of a demand from the landlord to pay in a case of non-payment, a dispute ensues, time passes and the landlord loses money. This was one of the most significant changes to landlord and tenant legislation that was introduced under the Residential Tenancies Act, RTA. Prior to the operation of that Act, if a landlord wished to end a tenancy he or she served a notice to quit. As soon as it was served, the landlord had to cease collecting the rent, no matter how long it took subsequent to that to get the tenant out. By receiving the rent a landlord was, in effect, continuing the tenancy. That was an intrinsic part of landlord and tenant law.

The RTA changed that in a significant way. It stated that the tenancy comes to an end on foot of the service of a valid notice of termination. However, as long as a tenant is in occupation, because there is a process that must ensue afterwards to ensure that if the tenant feels that the notice of termination is not valid and is right about that, the tenancy may not be at an end. That process will take a bit of time to work through the dispute resolution process.

During that period the tenant must continue to pay the rent. That is the law. The position is that the tenant is liable for the rent. Whether it is paid or not is another question. Issues arise around making a tenant pay. One important point that people often forget is that it is not, as Deputy Scanlon said, a consequence-free decision of a tenant not to pay the rent. If the tenant does not pay the rent he or she is still liable for it. When the dispute resolution process comes to an end and a determination order is issued against the tenant, that determination order will find that the tenant is liable for the rent and will direct the tenant to pay that rent to the landlord. So long as the tenant has the rent, he or she will eventually have to pay it. If the tenant does not comply with the determination order, the board will prosecute him or her and he or she will be found guilty of a criminal offence and the rent will still have to be paid because the landlord can take a civil action if he or she so wishes and the board will continue to go after the tenant until the rent is paid.

The non-payment of rent is not a consequence-free decision for tenants. It is wrong to give that impression. I would be concerned if that impression got out. To some extent that is the case. If we create the impression that tenants do not have to pay rent if they are in dispute with landlords and eventually get an order, unfortunately many tenants will end up with a big backlog of rent to pay. They will not like paying it, but they will have to pay it. It is important to realise that it is not a consequence-free decision. Unfortunately, it takes some time for disputes to be resolved through the board and it will take time no matter what process is brought to bear on the landlord and tenant relationship.

Everybody in this country is entitled to due diligence and Deputy Ciarán Lynch made the point that the Act tries to balance the rights of landlords and tenants. It does that within a constitutional framework which guarantees property rights as well as the right to a dwelling. There is a specification in the Constitution that guarantees somebody's right to a dwelling so if a landlord gives a property to a tenant who then uses it as a dwelling, there is an issue. The Residential Tenancies Act is about trying to balance these competing rights.

Whether it gets them right or wrong is a question we could have a long debate on and the commission I chaired attempted to get that balance right, taking everything into account. People may have different views and I would not be surprised to hear the IPOA state it did not get the balance right. Threshold might have a different view and it is up to the Oireachtas to achieve that balance, as has been pointed out.

It is very important to note that as a result of that, disputes between landlords and tenants will inevitably take time to resolve. Once there is a dispute, a process must be followed, notices must be served and a system has to unfold. People are entitled to appeal a decision made against them, for example. The result is that time will inevitably pass and tenants, if they choose not to pay their rent, will fall into arrears.

The board and I personally have spent much time trying to resolve that issue and we have made some suggestions to the Government, which have been looked at by various legal authorities. These concern how to evolve a process where if a tenant stops paying the rent, the landlord can get him or her out on foot of that. There is one idea — and whether it is legally sound is a question that may be eventually resolved here or in the courts — where by stopping the payment of rent, the tenant is ending the tenancy. If that could be enshrined in legislation, tenants will cease the non-payment of rent willy-nilly. It is a very difficult issue that is not easily resolved. The board is in discussions about resolving it and we will also give advice to the Department, as is its legal responsibility.

If somebody could come up with a solution, they should contact me immediately as I would love to have a solution that can be legally implemented, given that the rights of a tenant to a dwelling and the landlord to his or her property must be balanced. That is the nub of the point. I can take supplementary questions.

I agree with everything Mr. Dunne has said. Taking the case of the example I cited, it will probably be another four or five months before a decision will be taken, and the rent would not have been paid in that time or the eight months before. It is more than likely the finding would be against the tenant. The landlord has the option of taking the tenant to court to try to get back the rent due, amounting to €14,000 or €15,000 at this stage. The person involved is probably on rent allowance and it will probably take another €2,000 or €3,000 to get into court. There may be no point.

Mr. Tom Dunne

The solution is to speed up the dispute resolution process as much as possible. The IPOA has indicated it should be down to ten days but that will not work. People are entitled to have notices served on them and all the rest of the structures we choose to impose upon legal due diligence in this country, so it will take time. The board has a target to get the period in question down to approximately six months.

We have looked at this very carefully and given the requirements to serve notices and go through due processes, it is unlikely it can ever get much shorter than that period, unless we bring in some legislation that looks in a drastic way at notice periods and issues surrounding dispute resolution. Even if a board was operating incredibly efficiently, there would always be a question of arrears of rent where a tenant chooses not to pay the rent. The solution is very difficult, although one possibility would be to reduce the period over which a dispute takes place, and that is what the board is intent on doing.

I have made the point that it took up to 18 months and is now down to 12 months, but this is still far in excess of the target. The PRTB has been in operation for four years and has targets, but it is not meeting them and in the meantime stakeholders are suffering. This is not good enough; it is not an appropriate answer to say "we have a target," yet not meet it. At 12 months, it is double the target level.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

It should be borne in mind that this is a new area of operations. When the PRTB started, it had eight members of staff. This was increased to 26 and only since last summer have we had 40 members of staff. With this level of staffing, we have, for the first time, been able to process cases at the rate at which they come in and the results can be seen. We have reduced the dispute processing time considerably and taken a number of new initiatives which I outlined in my opening statement. For example, we now require three adjudication hearings a day for the adjudication fee; we have paper-based adjudications and streamlined our internal processes to maximise throughput. It will take time to work through the backlog that has accumulated over a number of years.

A wide range of questions were asked and I will start to address them.

Ms Caulfield did not mention mediation much. Is there not a case for sending in a sensible person to speak to the parties involved for five minutes and see who talks sense? Mediation was mentioned, but Ms Caulfield has focused on adjudication and formal legal procedures. Surely mediation is the most simple approach that should be tried first; if it does not work, the other procedures can be used. It seems 80% of cases could be weeded out within ten minutes by applying common sense. This may seem simplistic.

Mr. Frank Gallagher

That is something to which we aspire, but, in reality, the law states both parties must agree to enter into mediation. My staff advise me that approximately 10% of applicants seek mediation, but in most of these cases the other parties do not want mediation, they want an adjudication. That is the reality under the legislation.

There is scope as part of the adjudication process for parties to agree on the day and a cooling-off period follows. This provision has worked reasonably well, although it applies to a relatively small proportion of cases. At each board meeting between 6% and 8% of cases seen are those agreed on the day of adjudication. It is fair to say mediation was envisaged under the commission originally, but it has not worked out that way.

Is the emphasis in the wrong place?

Mr. Tom Dunne

I will make an observation. The concept of mediation was intended to apply where a landlord and tenant have a secure relationship and a dispute arises. The landlord and tenant must wish to maintain their relationship. In the past such disputes led to the ending of the relationship and the landlord serving notice on the tenant, but the commission considered this did not contribute to security of tenure. It was believed a process whereby agreement could be reached on the dispute and the relationship could endure thereafter would be good. Mediation arose from this idea. Most of the disputes that come before the board are ones where the relationship has been sundered. Some 60% relate to landlords refusing to return deposits; mediation will not solve such a dispute. If the tenant says "I want my deposit back" and the landlord says "I will not give it back because you did something wrong," there must be a resolution process.

With regard to Deputy Coffey's concerns, the end product of all this is a determination order. A person who does not comply with such an order may end up with a criminal conviction. As that is the end of the process, it is necessary to go back to the start to ensure everything the board does, from the moment it receives a dispute resolution form, is done with the utmost strictness and diligence. If strictness and diligence are not applied, the determination order making the tenant pay or the landlord do something will fail on a technicality. The board has been very successful in having its orders enforced by the courts, despite the fact that they have been challenged on many such technicalities. That is part of the process and it takes time. That is one of the reasons disputes take time. It is inevitable if we are to have a very high hurdle, i.e. not "on the balance of probabilities" but "beyond a reasonable doubt" to convict somebody, everything has to be done with a degree of certitude. That is the reason for the delays in the process.

Perhaps a member of the delegation will clarify whether an inspection is carried out when a landlord registers with the Private Residential Tenancies Board to ensure the property is up to standard? If not, when a dispute occurs between the landlord and tenant, how can the PRTB decide on the state of the property on the first day and its state when being vacated? So far as I can see this issue is up in a heap. How can one determine who is right or wrong in that situation?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

With regard to disputes involving the standard of the accommodation, that is a matter on which we liaise closely with local authorities.

If they do not make inspections——

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

In regard to a dispute of that nature we would ask the local authority to carry out an inspection. Its report would be central to the determination.

When the property is not inspected in the first place, how can anybody decide?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

With regard to a dispute submitted to the PRTB which alleges breach of landlord obligations with regard to the standard of accommodation we would arrange for an inspection to be carried out in those instances.

When a landlord registers with the PRTB surely the first item to be looked at is whether the property is in a proper state to be rented out. The PRTB must have some function in this area.

Mr. Tom Dunne

May I make an observation?

That is not——

Surely the PRTB must have some responsibility in that respect.

It appears the PRTB has a very limited role and probably far more limited than some of us would have expected, perhaps through our own ignorance. People felt the PRTB had a wider remit. The PRTB is spancilled.

Mr. Tom Dunne

The three functions of the board are to resolve disputes, to run a registration process and to provide policy advice to the Government. That is all the board can do. If the board is to resolve disputes it is like a judge. Unfortunately, either Deputy Scanlon or Deputy O'Sullivan said he telephoned the board about a particular case and he may have been very unhappy with the response from the board. I am happy to hear that because if a member of the board gave out information about a particular dispute to somebody and that got out, that would be cause for the other party to that dispute to head off to the courts and we would be in deep trouble. We cannot operate on that basis. That is a very good observation.

Perhaps I can comment on the registration. When the registration system was first looked at, I recall in discussions around that commission that it would be nice to have a system whereby before a property is rented it could be inspected by a third party. There are probably 220,000 tenancies out there and they churn at the rate of 50% or more per year. That would require 100,000 properties to be inspected before being rented. I am not sure the State would want to enforce such a rule because it would have to carry that as a burden and it would probably cost approximately €200 per inspection or, at least, €100. The other point is that would be a burden on tenants. In that case the IPOA would be very annoyed if it was to be burdened further with the cost of that inspection. By and large the private rented sector works reasonably satisfactorily. While 220,000 tenancies are registered there are probably many more that are not registered and outside our system that we should chase. Of those we get 1,500 disputes, which is a fraction of the actual number of tenancies. One can infer from that, by and large, that our private residential tenancy system operates satisfactorily. It is not ideal but it works satisfactorily.

I gather from the proceedings that the inspection system will not work because of its cost factor.

Mr. Tom Dunne

That is a matter for the Dáil.

That is a point of view.

It is a fair point.

May I come in on the inspection issue? While I criticise the PRTB it cannot conduct the inspections and become judge and jury afterwards as to whether an inspection was upheld. That is not legally possible. When a complaint regarding a standard is made, the role of the PRTB is to adjudicate on that complaint. The local authority and the Minister are responsible for inspections. I suggest to the Chairman that he raise his concerns with the Minister.

About the planning system?

No. It is the Minister who is responsible for the inspection regime.

It was to do with the planning system.

It was the responsibility of the then Minister of State, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, but is now the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran. If Deputy O'Sullivan looks at the Official Report, he will see that I have raised the matter with the Minister of State on an ongoing basis. Let us focus on that for which the PRTB is responsible. I am still waiting on the matter of adjudication costs. On inspections, a recommendation that could form part of the next residential tenancies Bill is that local authorities undertake what are called priority inspections. A house built within the last three or four years should be okay.

There could be one rental subsidy paid for by the taxpayer.

If one must prioritise, a house built in the last three or four years would probably have a decent BER rating and be in decent order.

It might be half finished.

It might well be. We know a lot about that, having regard to NAMA, Anglo Irish Bank, the Galway Races, etc. I imagine properties which are ten to 15 years old are the ones on which the PRTB is encountering difficulties in carrying out inspections. Would that be true?

In a high percentage of cases rent subsidy is paid to tenants to help them pay the rent. The community welfare officer must visit a person to ascertain whether he or she is entitled to claim rent allowance and whether he or she should inspect the property.

Mr. Anne Marie Caulfield

The Deputy raised concerns about the payment of rent supplement in his previous address also. We are in discussions with the Department of Social and Family Affairs which is obviously one of our stakeholders. We have discussed the payment of rent supplement; in cases in which perhaps it had not been passed on, the issue came to our attention as a result of a dispute. Senior management in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has been discussing new procedures with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. They will be looking at the question of paying rent supplement into a separate account with the PRTB where there is an ongoing dispute. At the end of a dispute the situation which the Deputy described would not then arise as rent supplement would have accumulated and on foot of a determination order be paid out, not having been disbursed in advance.

Would the Chairman like me to address some of the other questions raised?

There are many questions to be addressed.

Mr. Anne Marie Caulfield

Senator Coffey referred to the ICT strategy which he correctly pointed out is central to the future efficiency of the PRTB, both in terms of registrations and also case management in disputes. He expressed concern about the length of time it was taking to implement our ICT strategy, which was approved in October. As I pointed out, we appointed an ICT manager in December at which point we started to draft our request for tenders. As the Senator will be aware from other major investments in ICT throughout the public service, it is extremely important to plan for what one intends one's system to do and to manage the project carefully in order that it represents value for money. We have been in discussions with the Department of Finance and, within it, CMOD to obtain approval for the procurement of our system, whether it be through the purchase of a bespoke customised system or buying off-the-shelf products. Our request for tenders was placed on the e-government website yesterday and I understand from our ICT manager that there have already been 87 hits. That is not to say they will all come in but a substantial number probably will in the current economic climate. We are bound by the rules on public procurement which apply not only to potential Irish customers but also EU customers, in other words, we must allow people a minimum of 52 days in which to reply. We will then evaluate all of the tenders received and give those who will be short-listed an opportunity to appear before us and make a presentation. Before we award the tender, there will be standstill time of one month which is obligatory after an EU ruling on the matter during which dissatisfied parties may dispute the matter in respect of the party to whom we will award the tender. As a public sector body we must adhere to those standards, which I know might seem quite a long time to a private sector company. We would hope to have on-line registration in place by early next year.

Is the money ring-fenced for that system? Are the resources available once one goes through all that procedure?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

I would not be able to comment on the amount of money, but we have a certain level of fee income on account and we could use that to fund the system. Given that the project has gone to tender, I will not comment on costs or anything else.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch asked if the PRTB comes under the scope of the Freedom of Information Act. The intention is that the PRTB will be covered by the Freedom of Information Act before the end of the year. Given that the PRTB has a quasi-judicial role, the board will be seeking an exemption for certain aspects of its activities such as personal information on people's bank accounts and their home addresses. We would release most of the information in the normal course of events but there would have to be circumstances in which we do not release all the information.

Is the Private Residential Tenancies Board in negotiation with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Finance or the Information Commissioner? Who is involved in that discussion?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, but I suppose ultimately the Parliamentary Counsel will draft the legislation and the Oireachtas will pass it in the normal way. They have to get an appreciation of the role and the functions of the PRTB and——-

Would the Information Commissioner have a role in this discussion?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

Not to my knowledge. I do not know how the freedom of information legislation is drafted. It is done by the Department of Finance.

Mr. Tom Dunne

If one thinks about the process of registration, dispute and resolution and the ordinary operations of policy, the Freedom of Information Act can apply only to a very limited degree because one of the matters that landlords were rightly concerned about in discussions on the registration process was they did not want their names and addresses, personal details or ways of identifying them and their home to become available to tenants, who sometimes may have nefarious notions in their head about how one might persuade landlords to do things that they would not want to do. There is a concern that the registration process must be in some way confidential. We publish informationon the website, but the extent to which the Freedom of Information Act applies to that would be somewhat difficult.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

Deputy Scanlon asked about the enforcement of our determination orders and the effectiveness of this and I invite my colleague, Ms Kathryn Ward, who actually enforces our cases to address this issue.

Ms Kathryn Ward

As has been mentioned earlier, the board's policy is to take criminal prosecutions in the vast majority of cases taken to the PRTB for non-compliance with its orders. We would take a civil prosecution where somebody is overholding in a property. First, we would take a civil prosecution so as to get the person out of the property and return it to the landlord. The civil prosecution would also take into account any terms that were in the order, such as rent arrears. Our orders would cover rent arrears up to the date the person was in the property.

If those rent arrears were owed by the community welfare officer what happens in that case?

Ms Kathryn Ward

If it is a case that the tenant has already got the rent from the community welfare officer.

In the case of this particular tenant, whose rent was paid by the community welfare officer, a report was made that somebody else was staying in the house with her. The community welfare officer stopped paying the rent into the landlord's account, yet she is still in the house nine months later. What happens in that case where the rent should have been paid?

Mr. Tom Dunne

Presumably that case is all done and dusted and is over because it would be inappropriate to discuss it. We have grave difficulties discussing specific cases or even cases that might be seen to be near specific cases. That would land us in the High Court.

This case was resolved because the landlord paid the tenant €3,000 to leave the property. We will not mention names.

Perhaps the Deputy will find some other way to raise the case.

Rent allowance was being paid by the community welfare officer, but the payments ceased because somebody made a complaint about the tenant. The landlord has not been paid for seven or eight months, but if he continues with the process and it emerges that he was wronged, how will he seek redress?

The HSE and the Department of Social and Family Affairs will pay up if the judgment goes against them.

Will they? Can they?

Mr. Tom Dunne

It is important to bear in mind that the supplementary welfare allowance is an income supplement. It is not given to the landlord for rent but to the tenant in order that he or she has sufficient income from which to pay rent for accommodation. We cannot get involved in that.

We are talking about rent allowance.

Mr. Tom Dunne

The supplementary welfare allowance is an income supplement.

The person who adjudicates on the rent allowance is the community welfare officer.

Mr. Tom Dunne

This is a technical point, but it is an income supplement, not a rent allowance. It is at the discretion of the tenant whether he or she pays it directly to the landlord. If such an arrangement has been entered into, the tenant has the right to withdraw from it at any time.

We seem to have our wires crossed. Mr. Dunne is talking about a social welfare payment to a tenant, but I am talking about rent allowance.

In this case it was income to cover accommodation and the tenant had agreed it could be paid directly to the landlord. The tenant can withdraw that consent at any time.

The tenant did not withdraw consent. The Department of Social and Family Affairs made the decision.

If a community welfare officer found that the person was cohabiting with someone, he or she would cut off the money. The tenant would then be liable, not the HSE, nor the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The PRTB would hold to account any person who told lies to the community welfare officer and require that person to pay back the money.

It went on for seven or eight months.

We have exhausted this case.

Would Mr. Dunne advise the landlord to privately prosecute the tenant?

Before Mr. Dunne answers, Deputy Terence Flanagan wishes to speak.

I thank the reprsentatives of the PRTB for coming before the committee to answer questions. With Senator Coffey, I am very critical of the board's performance to date, especially in the light of the large backlog of cases. It is shocking that, four years since its establishment, it is now looking for an ICT unit to be provided. Why was that need not spotted at an earlier stage? A landlord should register directly with the PRTB on-line rather than leaving it to the PRTB staff.

Will Mr. Dunne give a breakdown of the various roles undertaken by the 40 staff working for the organisation? Will he also give a full breakdown of the duties of the 25 agency staff and the breakdown per department?

The report states 33% of applications received are incomplete. How long does it take to weed them out and return them to landlords? I know of a few instances where it has taken months for landlords to receive cheques because of the fact that information was missing from their application. Why can that not be done automatically as applications come in?

Could the board describe in a nutshell the weaknesses in the mediation and dispute resolution process? We have already discussed the length of time it takes. I understand due process must be observed, but it is a laborious system and takes a very long time. How many cases ultimately end up in the courts? What kinds of indicators does the board use to judge its performance? Obviously, it has failed to an extent if cases end up in court. What penalties are there if the board misses some of its indicators? What is the daily fee for adjudicators? How are they appointed and what qualifications do they need?

Regarding the Freedom of Information Act, I have had some feedback from landlords who feel they cannot get information from the PRTB on tenants and that the tenant is very much protected. The Freedom of Information Act does not seem to be functioning in that regard.

That is outside the scope of this discussion.

I know it is outside the scope of this, but is it up to the Minister to change that situation? Why is it outside the scope of this in the first place? That is a relevant question.

Ms Ward was in the middle of giving her response. Forgive me, but an exchange of views is probably better than long formal statements from both sides.

Ms Kathryn Ward

I have no problem in that sense. I will go back to some of the questions relating to criminal convictions. Of all our orders issued to date we have received 465 enforcement requests in relation to those orders. To date we have been successful in getting 50 criminal convictions. In regard to the criminal convictions, not alone do we get a criminal conviction for somebody but the courts have made compensation orders on the parties, whether landlords or tenants, to the tune of something like €6,500 which is the maximum they can award. There is a fine on top of that and there is also the PRTB's costs. It is very expensive for somebody to go the full hog and get a criminal conviction. We have been very successful to date in any of those cases we have taken. We have had 46 agreements reached either at court stage or just prior to court stage. Again, in relation to those, that would mean the landlords or tenants would get whatever the order decreed they should get and the PRTB will always look for the majority of its costs to be paid. Again, it has been very successful in relation to that issue.

With regard to the civil judgments under section 124 that we take to get the tenant out of the property and give the property back to the landlord, we have had 38 cases taken to date and we have been successful in all of those cases. We have only ever had to bring in the sheriff on four occasions when tenants patently refused to leave the property. A number of them are at various stages in the courts at the moment. We are in settlement talks on a number of the cases. Our policy on enforcement is working and we are getting results for either landlords or tenants and it is costing them more if they insist on going that route. We take enforcement proceedings in respect of every order that we can take an enforcement request on. The only limitations on us would be when a party has left and we have no current address. In that case we cannot serve summonses. We make all endeavours to try to get this information. We contact the Department of Social and Family Affairs or, perhaps, the local authority, and we look at our own systems to see whether somebody has been registered with another tenancy. Any information we can get we will examine to see whether we can take a case. Where we have no current address there is a problem because if we cannot serve summonses on someone we cannot take a case to court. That will happen in any walk of life in which judicial processes take place.

As for judicial reviews and if one is looking for a validation of the work of the Private Residential Tenancies Board, to date we have received 23 judicial reviews or Circuit Court appeal procedures. Of the ten such reviews we have defended to date, which would pertain to the PRTB's processes and procedures, we have been successful in defending all ten. Consequently, examination of our enforcement and judicial review processes shows they are a validation of the work and processes of the PRTB.

As our chairman pointed out earlier, we must be extremely careful from the outset as to how we deal with cases that come in, how we document them and how we ensure fair procedures for everyone concerned. Tribunals were mentioned earlier and we have held a number of tribunals since our establishment. We started off with 37 in 2005 and heard 101 tribunals in 2008. In 2009 to date, we already have received 156 appeals from adjudications to tribunals and have set up and heard 88 tribunal cases. As for those orders that have been challenged, where we have defended them all have stood up to the test. This alone constitutes a validation of our procedures and processes.

We continue to review and revise all our procedures in respect of these matters and will continue to so do. However, dealing with such a level of enforcement requests, such volumes in respect of setting up and convening tribunals, managing the judicial review process in 23 such cases, registering 217,000 registrations, which equates to 106,000 landlords and 373,000 tenants, while only getting in 1,600 applications in 2008, constitutes an extremely significant body of work for a permanent staff of 40. Moreover, the PRTB has only had 40 staff since the summer of last year. I emphasis this because of all my colleagues present, I have been with the PRTB for the longest time. As I noted earlier, we started with a full-time staff of six or eight, which increased to 23 or 26 and now stands at 40. This constitutes a significant body of work that has stood the test of the courts.

Is €6,500 the maximum that can be awarded?

Ms Kathryn Ward

Yes, that is at the discretion of the court and is the maximum the court can award.

That is despite the fact that someone might be owed €8,000 or €10,000.

Ms Kathryn Ward

That is a separate issue. In criminal convictions, the judge is not necessarily concerned with the terms of the order. The judge is concerned that someone failed to comply with an order of the PRTB. Although the judge does not take into consideration the terms of the order in the criminal process, the judge and the courts award a compensation award to a maximum of €6,500 or whatever. We have had a number of successful cases in this regard. For example, only last week we had a number of successful cases in the courts and we continue to be successful in prosecuting.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

Ms O'Mahony will respond to the questions on adjudicators' fees and tribunal fees.

Ms Máire O’Mahony

I will also take the question regarding the staffing of the PRTB.

As for the fees we pay to adjudicators and mediators, they are paid at a rate of €660. The same fee will be paid regardless of whether one, two or three adjudications have been set up. The fee is payable on a per day rather than a per case basis.

The target is three cases. If they do not achieve the target——

Ms Máire O’Mahony

It is not target-based.

—— they still get the money.

Mr. Frank Gallagher

We assign three cases per day to them and in general, they fully co-operate with us. There was no negotiation in this regard as the adjudicators co-operated fully with this change. Obviously what will happen——

It is easy to secure co-operation on payment of €660.

Mr. Frank Gallagher

Yes. While they are paid a daily fee, obviously occasions arise whereby a case may be withdrawn at the last minute. However, they have no control over instances in which parties settle before a case. In general, an adjudicator will hear three cases on a given day.

What qualifications are required to be an adjudicator?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

The adjudicators were all selected on foot of an open competition. They were obliged to sit a casebook examination and selected on the basis of their results. Their term will be completed next year, at which stage we will be obliged to consider further recruitment. It is a question of open recruitment.

Adjudicators are paid €660 a day. In addition, due to the fact that adjudications may take place in a hotel, room hire costs must be taken into consideration. Will our guests provide an indication of the total cost of hosting an adjudication?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

Since we moved to O'Connell Bridge House last year we have our own adjudication rooms; therefore, there is no cost for room hire.

What about adjudications which take place in Limerick, Cork and Waterford?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

In most cases, such adjudications take place in local authority offices. Obviously, there is no charge for the use of such accommodation.

When did the PRTB move to holding three adjudications a day? As I understand it, one adjudication a day was the norm until recently. Is the practice of holding three a day a new development or has it been in place for a number years?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

As that practice was introduced in September or October last, it is not that recent.

Therefore, between 2004 and September or October last year, only one adjudication a day was held.

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

It was one or two a day.

I am not an expert, but I did work in the area of conflict resolution. In the light of what occurred between the Chairman and me earlier, our guests might not believe that to be the case.

The Chairman and Deputy should seek mediation.

We will do so later. There is a skill involved in carrying out mediations, adjudications and conflict resolutions. I imagine conflict resolution skills would be among the qualifications necessary to be an adjudicator. It cannot just be the case that one must be conversant in property law. I am of the view that whether it is marriage mediation, there is a timeframe involved and that a particular methodology must be employed. In that context, three cases a day must be the baseline requirement. I accept that one might encounter an extremely complicated case that will require all of the time allocated to be resolved. However, there will be others that can be resolved in five minutes. It is similar to what happens on "Judge Judy" — one listens to each of the parties involved, indicates that one has heard similar stories 100 times over and then offers a solution.

Mr. Tom Dunne

Absolutely. However, a difficulty arises in that under our legal system — this applies to the PRTB — it is a constitutional right of any party to a dispute to make his or her case as he or she might see fit. We could be subjected to a judicial review on the basis that we did not allow a party to make the case as he or she saw fit. We do not, therefore, really control the way cases are made to us, other than through good case management on the day. I have sat on tribunals and I am aware that people take the time to make their case in the way they want.

Does one of the difficulties involved relate to the fact that one of the two parties involved — landlord and tenant — might bring professional representation with them?

Mr. Tom Dunne

That is an interesting point. One of the aims behind the Residential Tenancies Act was to try to create a speedy dispute resolution process. Members may state we failed in that regard, but we are working towards having such a process. Another of the aims was to make this process inexpensive for the parties involved. That is one aspect in respect of which we have been successful. It is entirely possible for a person who knows little or nothing about the law to navigate through our systems. In contrast, it is extremely difficult for people to navigate their way through the court process.

I am aware of landlords who brought legal representation to PRTB proceedings.

Mr. Tom Dunne

That would only be true in a fraction of the cases with which we deal.

Is that correct?

Mr. Tom Dunne

Yes. That is one of our successes. People feel it is incumbent upon them to attend our proceedings and make their presentations in whatever way they believe to be suitable. They are not legally advised or represented in the majority of cases. It is not a feature of our dispute resolution process that people should feel the necessity to employ legal representation.

It should not be.

Mr. Tom Dunne

Absolutely not, quite the reverse.

On adjudication, up to now, there was an expectation that three cases a day could be dealt with but that was not part of the contract with adjudicators. Has something significant changed so that adjudicators have an expectation placed on them by the PRTB that they will deal with three cases a day? Has that been communicated to them by some correspondence or a change in the contract?

Mr. Frank Gallagher

We wrote to the adjudicators in autumn 2008 telling them that this was the basis on which we would offer them work. We had to be mindful of the cost to the taxpayer and had to try to get cases through as quickly as possible. It is quite practical to suggest they could hear two less complex cases in the morning and a slightly more complex case in the afternoon. In fairness to them, they have complied with that.

What is the qualification for adjudicators? If they do not reach the target of three cases a day, will they be penalised? Will they not be paid if the PRTB does not give them three cases?

Mr. Frank Gallagher

We engage them on a case basis. There is a panel of adjudicators. Dublin is straightforward because there are ongoing cases. In other locations we contact an adjudicator, explain that we have three cases in that location and assign them. The adjudicator does not have to take the work but is assigned work on the basis of a batch of three cases. That has not been an issue, adjudicators have been very co-operative.

How many hours does each case take?

Mr. Frank Gallagher

As the chairman has pointed out, it depends on the nature of the case.

They could easily get three done in one day. Could they get a higher target?

Mr. Tom Dunne

A report must be drafted. The case could be judicially reviewed so some diligence is required for that job. It takes time.

How many days a week is an adjudicator employed?

Dublin sittings are ongoing, according to what Mr. Gallagher said.

Mr. Frank Gallagher

They sit on the basis of scheduled cases for a specific day.

How many days work a year does an adjudicator get?

Mr. Frank Gallagher

I do not have those figures. We have a large panel of adjudicators so I could not tell the committee the average number. Much depends on availability. In Dublin it is more straightforward. We draw from a large panel and I could not give a typical number of cases that an adjudicator hears. Certain cases have specific complexities so we are inclined to assign certain adjudicators to certain cases. I cannot provide a specific figure.

What about my question on qualifications?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

We can send the committee the advertisement that was publically issued. Offhand, at this stage, I cannot recall the relevant experience in the field.

Is that advertisement reviewed every year?

Ms Anne Marie Caulfield

Adjudicators are appointed for a three year term.

Mr. Tom Dunne

There was a process for doing this. We put an advertisement in the newspaper, invited applications and invited all those who applied to take an assessment. Some former adjudicators withdrew because they did not think it was appropriate that they be assessed in this way. There was an interview at the end. It was a rigorous process. We have learned from what the board has learned about dispute resolution in this sector. The lessons we learn from operating the Act are being applied and will be applied.

Senator Coffey referred to much manual work in the board, a good representation of what goes on. Under the registration procedures in the Act, it is a requirement that a physical form signed by the parties arrives at the PRTB. This was included in the legislation following the commission and I do not know why someone did not think of doing this on-line. I have some vague memory of an argument about this. It was not decided by the Government that the process should be completed in accordance with the current ICT strategies. The Senator is correct. That is a good observation. There is manual labour to deal with 100,000 forms. It is important to remember that the landlord's right to have a dispute resolved through the board is on foot of that landlord having the tenancy registered. If the registration is not right at the beginning, a tenant could challenge it at any stage and that would bring the case down from the landlord's perspective. It is in the landlord's interest to get those registration forms right. The board cannot register a registration form that is not correct. Therefore, we have to scan those and send them back to landlords. The point was made earlier to the IPOA about encouraging its members to ensure those forms are correct, as that would reduce the amount of work involved in sending the forms back and it would allow the board to get on with the job of dispute resolution.

How often does the dispute resolutions committee meet?

Mr. Tom Dunne

It does not meet every month.

Does the entire committee meet?

Mr. Tom Dunne

It meets once a year.

How does the system function?

Mr. Tom Dunne

The dispute resolution committee is part of the board's processes. It goes back to the point made previously by the IPOA. The members of the tribunal are not drawn from members of the board; they are drawn from people who are on the dispute resolution committee. Board members might or might not be on the dispute resolution committee. There are rules and regulations governing that area. The dispute resolution committee does not only include members of the board, it also includes a wide variety of other people. If I am correct, there are approximately 40 members.

Ms Kathryn Ward

One can have up to 40 members. There are 29 members at present.

Mr. Tom Dunne

There are 29 members at present and there are 15 board members. The tribunals are drawn from the dispute resolution committee of the board. It meets once a year formally to review its processes but the members of the dispute resolution committee are members of the tribunal. Therefore, the issue of whether board members sit on tribunals does not have any influence on how many tribunals the board can operate. That is determined by the number of people who are on the dispute resolution committee. We are comfortable with the number of people that are on it and that from an administrative perspective we can run the number of tribunals that are necessary based on the number of people we have available at tribunals. That is not a limiting factor at all.

On the issue of how the rent allowance is affecting the PRTB at the moment, I wish to raise an issue that was brought to my attention. In the case of anti-social behaviour a tenant or a landlord can make a complaint. Can a residents' association make a third party complaint or does it have to be an individual?

Mr. Tom Dunne

It has to be an individual.

Is that because of the legislation or practice, as it creates a particular difficulty?

Mr. Tom Dunne

It is in the legislation. It may be that the provision can be amended.

One of the obvious difficulties with that is in cases where a tenant is engaged in anti-social behaviour that is affecting an entire estate. The resident who has to become the lead objector becomes very exposed. If a residents' association or a group of people could act in solidarity and its name or multiple names could be put on an application, it would offer some level of protection to them. I expect that is something the PRTB has been considering following its review, as it is likely to have encountered the difficulty.

Mr. Tom Dunne

Sure. I wish to make one or two observations to tidy up matters. Deputy Lynch inquired about licences and leases. That issue arose in the IPOA presentation previously. The law on that is very interesting. When the legislation was being created there was a history of when the landlord and tenant code was being introduced, people in the 1930s tried to use licences to get out of it. There are a number of precedent court cases which would allow any dispute resolution authority examining whether a licence is a licence or a tenancy lease to make a determination on the case. It is fair to say that by and large it would want to be very clear that it is a licence rather than a tenancy.

Any dispute resolution process would consider the circumstances around the case and with past instances, we have come to the conclusion that any licence coming before the board might turn out to be a tenancy. One can contrive something to be a licence and call it such but whether it is a licence or not is something that an adjudicator, tribunal or court will determine afterwards. The history of those sorts of precedents tend to show that where there is a contrivance to avoid a tenancy, it will be found that it is a tenancy.

The previous question related to the breakdown of staff numbers. How many people are involved in data inputting?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

We have a sanction for 40 staff. We have one director and 14 staff working in the disputes area, with seven dealing with tribunals and enforcement of cases to the courts. There are eight in registration and enforcement of landlords who have not registered with us. There are ten in ICT, finance, human resources and corporate services. We also have approximately 25 agency staff, although it does vary a little depending on volumes, four of whom work in the disputes area, with one helping with tribunal and enforcement work, 16 working on the registration of forms, four processing the cheques for those forms and two agency staff dealing with all the other ICT, human resources, corporate and finance issues.

When the cheques are received, are they lodged on the day?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

There is no way we could lodge 1,000 cheques straight away and there must be a process of checking, validating and scrutinising them. We have a case tracking system and when they are found to be valid, they can be processed. If there are invalid returns, they are sent back to the landlord with the cheques.

Is that done immediately?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

It is not immediately because we have a backlog. They are sent back to the landlord when they have been processed.

Would the cheques be in date by the time they are processed?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

They are not in date in some cases. There is an anecdotal example of a form which has come back to us incomplete seven different times from a letting agent. Of course the cheque would be out of date in that instance.

Is there an ongoing absence of PPS numbers on those forms?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

I will allow Ms Diskin answer the questions on registration in particular.

Ms Carmel Diskin

There may be a variety of reasons for incomplete forms. There may be a failure by the tenant or the landlord to sign the form. Where the landlord has stated that he or she has made a reasonable effort to get the PPS number, we will accept that. There is no obligation to have the PPS number but a reasonable effort must be made. The tenancy commencement date is frequently left out and the incorrect fee may have been paid. These are the main reasons for an incomplete application, which some 33% of applications are. That contributes significantly to our backlogs. Where possible, we try to resolve the issue by phone in order to speed up the process.

Mr. Tom Dunne

It is important that registration is done properly because if it is not, a case could fall because a tenant could hold that the property was incorrectly registered. In this case the landlord would have had no right to take the case in the first place. Under the law we have, it is crucial that registration is done properly. We must operate within the constraints of the law.

How are non-resident landlords handled? I am sure many landlords live in England, for example.

Ms Máire O’Mahony

They are processed in exactly the same way. We have non-resident landlords in our database, although there would not be a significant number. Many letting agents supply forms to us and we imagine some of those would come from non-resident landlords, although we do not know the details of their residency.

Is the PPS number for the landlord recorded as well as that for the tenant?

Ms Máire O’Mahony

Not necessarily. The Act allows us to accept the letting agent's details as the relevant information and we do not always get landlord details.

Where an application is made and the cheque is submitted, if there is a backlog and the processing time goes beyond six months, is it possible that everything in an application and registration may be correct but because the cheque is out of date, the application is rejected? What percentage of cases would fall into this category if it is applicable? It seems to be crazy that a registration could be correct but a cheque is out of date by the time it is processed. Can anything be done about this?

Ms Carmel Diskin

That would not be an issue as it would have been resolved by that stage.

The only way to approach it is with regard to ones that go back. At this stage——

I asked a question about people who rent to buy apartments and houses as this sector has taken off recently. Is the landlord, owner, agent or tenant obliged by law to register the property with the PRTB? Can the board help a person who rented a house four years ago and is now experiencing problems?

Mr. Tom Dunne

I will take the last question first as it is easier one to answer. A landlord who cannot register property because the tenant does not satisfy the requirements for registration may contact the board which will issue a section 84 letter to the landlord which will enable him or her to use the courts where the dispute will be dealt with. There is a vehicle for dealing with such disputes.

The other question is complex. A landlord or tenant in such a situation who has a problem can come to the board and fill in a dispute resolution form which will be processed in the normal way. The first thing an adjudicator will do is determine whether he or she has jurisdiction. Such questions are answered differently, depending on the individual case. Only by examining a few cases can one get a feel for the situation. I am not sure what the status is of a person who is in a contractual relationship, has contracted to buy in two or three years and paid over a sum of money to a vendor. The question of whether such a person is a tenant would be determined by an adjudicator based on the circumstances of the case. Circumstances can vary from case to case.

The question is whether the people concerned are required to register. What is the view of the PRTB on the offsetting of rent for two years against the purchase price? Such rent to buy schemes are advertised every day.

Mr. Tom Dunne

One of the things I have learned from being on the Private Residential Tenancies Board is to think carefully when I am asked for my view. I usually say "I will make that decision based on the specific details of a case." Unless there are many cases from which a general conclusion can be drawn, it is difficult to comment.

What about the rent to buy circumstances I outlined?

Mr. Tom Dunne

We have not yet had such a case.

We will conclude because we have had a long, extensive and useful discussion. As the delegates have attended the Committee of Public Accounts previously, they are used to visiting the Oireachtas. However, this is the first time this committee has hosted the Private Residential Tenancies Board. I thank Mr. Dunne, Ms Caulfield and their colleagues for attending. It is late and I appreciate the time they have given us.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.05 p.m until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 July 2009.
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