JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 6 Oct 2009

Regional and Local Roads Investment Programme: Discussion.

Chairman

The next item is No. 4, the implications for local government arising from changes to the management of the regional and local roads investment programme. It was agreed at our last meeting to invite officials from the Department of Transport and the National Roads Authority to discuss the new arrangement for managing local and regional roads programme. I am pleased that the delegation is here today. We are joined from the NRA by Mr. Fred Barry, chief executive, and Mr. Michael Egan, head of corporate affairs and professional services. From the Department of Transport we have Mr. Pat Mangan, assistant secretary, and Mr. Dominic Mullaney, principal advisor at the roads inspectorate. The witnesses are very welcome.

The format of our meeting will involve a brief presentation by the witnesses. Prior to the presentation, I want to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the Oireachtas have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Mangan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Pat Mangan

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee and discuss this issue. I will be brief. Agreement was reached earlier this year between the Department and the National Roads Authority which provided that from 1 September 2009 the NRA would undertake the management of the regional and local roads grants on behalf of the Minister for Transport and a copy of the agreement underpinning that arrangement has been provided to the committee.

The decision to do this was taken on grounds of administrative efficiency, particularly in circumstances where there is increasing pressure on staffing and financial resources in the Department as a result of the current difficulties with the public finances. It is the view of the Department that it makes sense to use one organisation to administer all road grant payments and to monitor the expenditure of those road grants. The NRA already had very effective systems in place to administer the national road improvement and maintenance programme and it seemed to us that the most logical and efficient approach was to use that NRA expertise to administer regional and local road grants as well. It is important to stress that these revised administrative arrangements will not affect the statutory role of local authorities or the Minister for Transport in any way.

The improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads is the statutory responsibility of road authorities under section 13 of the Roads Act 1993. This statutory position is not affected by the new administrative arrangements. The NRA is not being given any new statutory powers similar to those it has with regard to national roads. Under section 82 of the Roads Act the Minister is empowered to pay grants to road authorities and he uses this power to allocate regional and local road grants to the authorities each year to supplement expenditure from their own resources. This power is also unaffected by the new administrative arrangements. The Minister will still continue to decide on grants policy and on the individual allocations to local authorities each year. Given that the Minister's statutory powers are unaffected, he will continue to be accountable to the Oireachtas in the same way as he is at present. In particular this means that he will reply to parliamentary questions on regional and local road grants in the same way as he does at present.

I hope that these assurances allay any concerns expressed by Members on the transfer of administrative functions to the NRA. It does not affect the Minister's statutory functions in any way or the statutory functions of local authorities and it does not affect the Minister's accountability to the Oireachtas through parliamentary questions.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Mangan.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the Chairman and my comments echo those of Mr. Mangan. I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee. Members are aware that the Minister for Transport has arranged that certain functions relating to the management of the regional and local road investment programme will now be undertaken by the NRA rather than the Department of Transport. The decision confers no statutory powers on the NRA with regard to regional and local roads. For example, the Minister will continue to decide the grant allocations to be made to individual road authorities. Programme systems and procedures will operate in accordance with current practices for now. However, we will probably introduce electronic payment of grants from an early stage using the IT system already in use for the national roads grant payments. We will offer technical support and expertise to road authorities for the regional and local roads programme but will not be assuming responsibility for these areas. The road authorities continue to have statutory responsibility for the construction and maintenance of regional and local roads.

Not only are the Department's functions being transferred to the National Roads Authority, NRA, in particular, representations and meeting with deputations remain with the Department and are specifically excluded from the NRA's role. The NRA has no role in planning approvals which impinge on regional or local roads.

We have already started working with roads authorities, many of which we work with already. We look forward to a smooth transition over the coming months.

Chairman

This decision was taken to ensure administrative efficiency. Will Mr. Mangan give us a cost-benefit analysis of this?

When we became aware of the decision, one matter that angered us as public representatives was that the Department did not issue a press release or an information note? The NRA regularly releases press releases, yet no Oireachtas Member was aware of this decision. Who came up with the thinking in the agreement? All we have been given is a memorandum on the agreement. Is there a signed agreement or an exchange of letters about a memorandum? The memorandum states the NRA will not deal with or have meetings with political representatives or the public. From where did this concept emerge that a State organisation responsible for billions of euro of public funding will not meet with members of the public or public representatives?

A local authority will draw up its local roads programme. If there are issues with a programme, how can the public or public representative raise it after it has been sent to the NRA? No doubt the authority will increase its influence and role. The only body a public representative can make representations to is the Department of Transport which has effectively devolved its management role and will only be a talking shop because it will have no hands-on management role.

At least the HSE, bad and all that it is, has not written into its rules that it will not speak to the public. It may be standard in other walks of life but it is an extraordinary concept I have never seen before. Will the Department of Transport explain the thinking behind this agreement? It has already been stated that the Minister will answer parliamentary questions but that is always the case. How can one think of any State organisation effectively being muzzled from speaking to members of the public?

Mr. Pat Mangan

First, the Minister replied to a parliamentary question put down by Deputy Ulick Burke on 8 July about this decision and stated it had been taken. The memorandum and the exchange of letters the committee has constitutes the agreement.

The main benefit of the agreement for the Department will be in the redeployment of staffing resources. Departments are under severe pressure with staffing resources and will be further so when the impact of the early retirement and career break schemes takes effect. Already, for example, the principal officer in the regional and local roads division has retired and will not be replaced. The division has been merged with the national roads division with reductions in staff. This will allow the Department to redeploy resources or suppress posts as part of the ongoing restraints on public expenditure and staff reductions.

The reason the agreement states the NRA will not meet with public representatives and so on is a reflection that the responsibility in law and in decision-making remains with the Minister not with the NRA. It is simply doing an administrative task on behalf of the Department. The Minister will continue to make the decisions on allocations to local authorities for types of funding for regional and local roads. Public representatives can make their representations to the Minister and the Department as usual. The NRA is simply doing an administrative task and not taking over any statutory function.

Chairman

I understand that but the agreement referred to is about the management of regional roads and not the administration of the payment system. There is a difference in my language between the management of the regional roads programme and what Mr. Mangan is describing as an administrative function just to process payments. I do not accept it is an administrative function only.

Every one of the documents by Mr. Mangan has been headed, "management of regional and local roads". If the NRA were to be true to what a State agency should do, it should be managing its €500 million budget and not just administering it and e-mailing out payments. There must be a distinction between administration and management. There is no problem if it is easier to administer the programme from an office in Waterloo Road. However, technical support was referred to which is management and not administration. In due course, I am sure the expertise of the NRA will be brought to bear with various county engineers. This will be done on a management not an administrative basis. Does Mr. Mangan accept there is a difference between administration and management?

Mr. Pat Mangan

I do but we will have to agree to disagree on this. As far as we are concerned, the NRA is doing an administrative task. It is administering the grant system and carrying out inspections. All of this is set out in detail in the memorandum as to what the NRA will do.

Chairman

In the interest of clarity, will the Department send out a letter to local authorities stating that the previous circular issued is not about the management of regional and local roads programmes but its administration? If I received a letter informing me the management rather than the administration of a programme was changed, I would take it more seriously. There is a significant difference. The term "administration" is used on the one hand to make light of this. However, when the circular landed on local authorities, they were informed it affected the management of the programme. The circulars have been wrongly titled and the draft agreement, drawn up by the Department, is headed, "NRA management of the regional and local roads investment programme". If it were only an administrative role in sending out payments, I do not believe the committee would be meeting today. No local authority member or county manager believes this is only about administration of payments. It is about management. We will have to agree to disagree.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I do not think we can agree to disagree with Mr. Mangan. It is clear from the Chairman's remarks that the management of the regional and local roads programme will be transferred lock stock and barrel to the NRA. Oireachtas Members and county councillors will be making representations to the NRA to get potholes filled. That is the tenor of the letter the Department sent out. If it is a mistake, the least the Department can do is acknowledge it and correct it.

County councillors have been in contact with Oireachtas Members about this matter. When they do not get the proper information they become concerned. For example if, since the letter was circulated, I was to attend a briefing with county managers and a county manager does not even tell me he received the circular clarifying the new responsibilities I would wonder what is going on. The easiest way to clarify this, which Mr. Mangan has done today, and to clear up any misunderstanding, is for the Department to re-issue the circular, as the Chairman said, and discuss the administration of regional and local road grants.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I agree with the previous speaker. There is confusion here. Local authority members who meet three or four times a year to decide which local roads to work on, with the advice of the local engineers, thought they were losing the authority to select the local roads. If they knew that the NRA will be administering the grants to the local authorities for the works to be carried out on regional and local roads we would not be here today. That is where the confusion came in and people grew concerned about that.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I welcome the witnesses from the Department of Transport and the NRA today. I am glad to see Michael Egan here because he has been very helpful whenever I have made contact with him. I compliment his staff who have been very helpful whenever I have asked them to come to talk to people while the M3 has been under construction. They always attended meetings and it is great to get that kind of help. Many problems can be resolved on the ground and that is the way to deal with them. Mr. Egan's officials have looked after me very well in respect of the M3 and I am very grateful for that.

Like everybody else I am concerned, having been a long time member of a local authority. Will the council staff continue to oversee the spending of money and will the council staff, the director of services in infrastructure, and the five or the three year plan, if there is one, still be in place? We had both a five and a three year plan and we knew what roads would be done in a particular year. The councillors used to examine the five year plan and if a road was deteriorating rapidly they would apply to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to bring work on that road forward in place of another. I would like these issues to be cleared up. Will that type of system continue and will the director of services for infrastructure continue to oversee the work so that if I have a problem I can go to him or to the area engineer and do not have to go to the Department of Transport or the NRA?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee this afternoon. Perhaps this issue started on the wrong foot. What is the rationale behind this decision, what sort of efficiencies does it create and does it lead to joined-up government? We are all working towards joined-up government but there is a strong impression arising that this diminishes democracy and communications. I am surprised at the responses we have heard this evening. They were the briefest introductory speeches I have heard in my time on this committee. Each is only a page long. One is not looking for a tome from people coming before the committee but the standard is that a better explanation and presentation is made to the committee, as the Official Report shows.

Am I correct in understanding that this was announced in response to a parliamentary question? That is not an announcement, it is a response from a Minister to a question from a Member who had some information. That is the type of behaviour we are trying to get away from. Members have a difficulty when they table a question for the Minister for Transport and he says that it is an operational matter for the NRA and kicks the issue into touch. Are we going to see more of this, as the Chairman has indicated, as the NRA takes over management of these programmes? Will neither the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government nor the Minister for Transport answer our questions because these will be operational matters of the NRA? Who has the final say on these issues? If the NRA is administrating a programme who determines what works are the priority, the county manager, the senior engineer and the public representatives or the NRA?

One of the points in the correspondence that came with the presentation today is that the NRA will not deal with county development plans, local area plans, response to EU noise pollution directives and meetings with political representatives and the public. These are only examples of a long list of things with which the NRA will not deal. We should be creating joined-up government. The idea that the NRA has no relationship with these issues is a further drift away from what we hope to achieve in local government.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I have a letter addressed to this committee which refers to the management of the non-national roads investment programme. Is it management or administration? It would be helpful to clear up that point.

I can understand the concerns of town and county councils about this information. The message has not been as clear as it should be. There is confusion. Where national roads go through or by-pass towns the tidy towns committees have problems getting signs and so on from the NRA. They have well-founded concerns about the NRA managing local and regional roads. My experience of signage on national roads has not been the best, contrary to what my colleague, Deputy Brady said. In that regard I can understand the concerns of town and county councillors.

It is unacceptable that representatives of the NRA will not meet with public representatives, whether Oireachtas Members or local authority members, to discuss these issues. It seems unusual that a decision should have been made to preclude such contact. It is the duty of every semi-State body with a national remit to be accountable to local and central government. The NRA has a vital role to play and it is important that it meet with county councillors, Deputies, Senators and this committee to discuss its implementation of that remit.

Before the Chairman brought this issue to our attention at the last meeting none of us was aware of the proposed changes. I have outlined my concerns regarding the proposal. There is merit in a development whereby the NRA assumes responsibility for ensuring the system is operated in a proper manner from an administrative point of view. However, I see no role for the NRA in managing local road infrastructure, filling potholes and so on. A local engineer can be there in person to deal with issues as they arise, but I cannot see the NRA sending staff to investigate potholes on local roads. That is not and should not be the authority's role, but there is widespread concern that such a change is proposed. The sooner that is clarified the better.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I was obliged to attend another meeting and I apologise for being late. I have heard the concerns of local authority members regarding the new arrangement and in the absence of a clear explanation of what is involved, I share those concerns. All of us engaged in this process, whether staff of the NRA and the Department or public representatives, must bear in mind that we are in our roles for a finite term and that we must, during that time, do our best for local communities. Local authority members have done their best for their communities in so far as maintaining the roads in their constituencies. Are we now facing a situation where in view of a reduction in the NRA's allocation for next year, new powers are being granted to that body in order to keep it busy during the recession?

Chairman

I invite Mr. Mangan to respond to members' questions.

Mr. Pat Mangan

The statutory responsibility for the maintenance and improvement of local and regional roads remains with local authorities. It is their function to decide on priorities, carry out works and so on, and that will not change in any way under this proposal. As such, there will be no change in the responsibilities of local engineers, directors of services and so on. Under the Roads Acts, the Minister's role has been to provide grants from the Exchequer to supplement local resources, and that will not change under the new arrangement. All we have asked is for the NRA to perform, in future, the bulk of the administrative work. Decisions will continue to rest with the Minister as to what grants are given for what purpose on an annual basis.

It is important to recognise that the NRA's purview does not include any statutory role in this area; that statutory function remains with the Minister. Deputy Ciarán Lynch asked whether the NRA will have an input into county development plans. As the body with statutory responsibility for national roads, the authority can make representations to local authorities in regard to development plans where such plans impact on national roads. However, in the case of regional and local roads issues, such matters will remain within the remit of ministerial responsibility. In other words, the Department, on behalf of the Minister, will make representations in respect of county development plans where there are issues of concern to it.

It is clear from what members have said that there is a need for clarification of these matters. Would it help for us to communicate to local authorities my opening statement to this committee and the memorandum of agreement between the NRA and the Department? This would facilitate a clear understanding within local government of what the NRA is and is not doing. There seems to be a concern that the authority is assuming a statutory power in regard to regional and local roads akin to its existing responsibilities in regard to national roads. That is not the case. We are anxious to provide the clarity necessary to allay the concerns expressed by members and other public representatives.

Chairman

It would be helpful if Mr. Barry explained the practical implications of the proposed liaison between the NRA and the local authorities, the number of NRA staff involved and so on. We recognise that NRA staff will not be coming down to manage roads and that this responsibility will remain with local staff. What is the purpose of this extra tier of bureaucracy between the local authority and the Minister? I assume the NRA will have something to say about the differing work practices among the various local authorities. I expect the authority will use its expertise to rationalise work processes and ensure there is a more consistent approach. How do the delegates see this working?

Deputy Phil Hogan

To be fair to him, Mr. Mangan has acknowledged the confusion that exists regarding this issue. In addition to circulating the memorandum of agreement to committee members, will the Department reissue its circular to the management of local authorities?

Mr. Pat Mangan

That is precisely what I have proposed, that the information we have put before the committee today will be sent to local authorities.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am confident that would resolve the difficulties.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Meath County Council has been assigned €20 million from the NRA for 2010 for regional and local roads. Can Mr. Barry guarantee that this sum will be spent on regional and local roads and will not be diverted at some stage during the year to national primary and secondary routes?

Mr. Fred Barry

That funding is ring-fenced.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Does the Department envisage a saving to the Exchequer from what is proposed or will it be business as usual except for the administration side?

Mr. Pat Mangan

We do not envisage a saving in regard to road grants. The key driver of this proposal is the significant staffing pressures we are experiencing. The new procedures will allow us to reduce the numbers of staff allocated to regional and local roads. As I said, the principal officer with responsibility for this area has already retired and the two divisions dealing with national and regional roads and local roads, respectively, have been merged, with a consequent reduction in staff.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Will Mr. Mangan offer an assurance that no part of the funding allocated for regional and local roads will be siphoned off for national roads?

Mr. Pat Mangan

The relevant funding is ring-fenced and each fund is entirely separate from the other.

Chairman

Will Mr. Barry outline how he envisages the practical operation of these changes in the coming years?

Mr. Fred Barry

Certain tasks currently undertaken by the Department will be done by NRA staff. For example, the priority listings compiled by local authorities in regard to annual spending will be submitted to the NRA this year instead of the Department. We will pull all of the information together before sending it on to the Minister. As before, it is for the latter to decide how funding is allocated. We will then administer that funding against the invoices coming in from the local authorities. We are not adding any staff for this purpose but will instead borrow staff on a temporary basis from the Department of Transport to assist us with the transition. We are not interested in interfering with local authorities in the management of potholes and so on. Even if we wanted to, we do not have sufficient staff to engage in that type of activity.

The reason certain issues are marked as in and others out in the agreement between the Department and the NRA is not to exclude contact and consultation with public representatives but to set down a clear agreement between the NRA and the Department as to who is responsible for what. If we do not have a clear understanding of our responsibilities, something will inevitably fall between the cracks. Members are aware that we meet regularly with deputations of interested parties, including public representatives. We never refuse a meeting with a public representative in regard to national roads.

Chairman

That is because the NRA has a statutory function in respect of national roads, but there is no such statutory function in regard to regional and local roads.

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, we have no statutory function in that regard. That will stay with the Minister and the Department to the extent that the Minister wants to bring the Department into it.

Chairman

Will the Minister be a step further removed under the new process?

Mr. Fred Barry

Most dealings in regard to regional and local roads are with the local authorities, and that will not change. On the rare occasion when one goes beyond the local authority to make representations or seek clarification on a particular issue, such queries will continue to go to the Minister's office. They will not come to the NRA. We have no decision-making power in terms of where the money is allocated and we cannot move money, in either direction, between the regional and local road Vote and the national road Vote. We have no authority in that regard.

Chairman

I assume there is a significant variation from one county to another in the cost of tarring 1 km of road or paving 100 m of footpath. It may be the case that some local authorities are getting poor value for money and are unaware of it. Will the NRA have a role, on the basis of its acquired expertise, in tendering on a regional basis for some of these types of works? There must be some benefit to somebody from the proposed changes.

Mr. Fred Barry

The early benefits I envisage will relate to design standards and the engineering side. We have developed design standards, specifications and so on in respect of national roads that represent best value for money for the different types of structures. As we see what the various local authorities are doing, I expect we will do some work on that and make our expertise available to them to whatever extent they want to buy into it. We have been granted no authority to instruct local authorities in this regard that the Department does not currently have. There is no legislative or practical change in this regard. Our function in regard to regional and local roads is not the same as that in respect of national roads where we can mandate how the work is to be done.

Chairman

What is Mr. Barry's view on the issue of variation in contractor costs across the various local authorities?

Mr. Fred Barry

If, for example, we find that one local authority is paying €10 per sq. m. for a particular service while another is getting it for €5, we will let the first manager know and explain how his or her counterpart in the other authority is able to get a better deal. We will be able to offer assistance from that point of view. As I said in my statement, we have a good deal of expertise. While we do not wish to impose that expertise on anybody, it will be accessible to local authorities to the extent to which they want to draw on it. That also applies to the maintenance of bridge structures and so on.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Will the NRA have any role in the tendering process for regional and local roads, footpaths and so on?

Mr. Fred Barry

The Department of Finance has set out the terms and conditions to be used in tendering for large and small projects of various types. We do not have any role in that regard. In the case of national roads, we tender certain projects either on a national or regional basis in order to secure better prices. If county and city managers are interested in pursuing that approach in order to obtain better prices, we will certainly facilitate them. However, we do not intend to impose that on anybody.

Mr. Pat Mangan

The NRA, as a large engineering organisation, has a great degree of technical expertise which is of clear benefit in terms of driving value for money. However, decisions on tendering are ultimately for the Minister. For example, if the latter is concerned about cost variations, as referred to by the Chairman, he or she can, in deciding the allocations, impose ceilings on costs. Similarly, if he or she is of the view that it is appropriate to do tendering in a certain way, that can also be made a condition of grant. Such issues will continue to be the Minister's call, not the NRA's. The advantage of involving the NRA in the process arises from that organisation's strong engineering expertise developed through its remit in respect of national roads. The Department will be pleased to avail of such expertise but it will ultimately be the Minister's call as to what is included or not included as a condition of grant.

Senator Paudie Coffey

I apologise for missing the presentation as a result of being called to a vote in the Seanad. With regard to grant schemes, I presume the role of the NRA is merely to administer them. For example, in the case of the low-cost safety improvement schemes, will the NRA be involved in any way from a technical perspective? Will it merely take proposals from the local authorities and allocate accordingly or will it examine them and, according to its technical expertise, give recommendations as to prioritisation and so on to the authorities? In other words, will the NRA have a role in prioritising applications to the Department for grant allocations for schemes such as the low-cost safety improvement schemes?

Mr. Fred Barry

We are already involved in supporting the Department in regard to the low-cost schemes and I do not expect that to change significantly. Our involvement in this area will more or less continue as it has heretofore.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Is it a requirement that every contract must be tendered? It often strikes me that it is the same contractor winning all the local authority contracts. That contractor may well be the cheapest and I am not saying it is doing bad work. However, it is a cause for concern, particularly in the current environment when there is good value to be had.

Mr. Fred Barry

I cannot comment on that issue. I assume local authorities are tendering in accordance with Department of Finance procedures.

Chairman

Sometimes local authorities tender every two years, for example, for competent contractors and a list is drawn up.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

Local authorities must go through a formal tender procedure except where a project is of very low value. That procedure is set out in the guidelines of the Department of Finance and the authorities are subject to audit in that regard.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I do not have great confidence these days in Department of Finance guidelines.

Chairman

On that note we will conclude our discussion. I thank Mr. Barry, Mr. Mangan and their colleagues for their contributions. We have had an informative discussion. I note Mr. Mangan's undertaking to issue another notice to local authorities to clarify the situation.

The next meeting of the joint committee will take place on Tuesday, 20 October. I propose to have a discussion on the nitrates directive, to be attended by representatives from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Environmental Protection Agency and the Irish Farmers Association. The latter has often raised concerns about the operation of the directive.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Will the Chairman allow members of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to attend the meeting?

Chairman

Absolutely. I will formally extend an invitation to the members of that committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.40 p.m until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 20 October 2009.