JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jan 2010

Flood Damage: Discussion with Emergency Response Co-ordination Committee.

Chairman

I welcome the delegation from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, whose members are here to represent the Emergency Response Co-ordination Committee. I welcome Mr. John Hogan, chair of the committee, and Mr. Des Dowling, assistant secretary at the Department. Whereas our initial intention was to discuss flooding only — this meeting was arranged prior to Christmas — the weather events of recent weeks cannot be ignored. We would be grateful, therefore, if our guests would address the effects of the recent snow in addition to the issue of flooding. I also welcome Deputies and Senators who are not members of the committee but who requested that we hold hearings in respect of the devastation caused by flooding.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to delegates appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Mr. Dowling to make his initial contribution.

Mr. Des Dowling

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to make this presentation and to discuss with them the flooding that occurred in late 2009. I am joined by my colleague from the local government division, Mr. Seán Hogan, who is the Department's fire adviser and who is designated as national director for fire and emergency management.

The committee asked to meet officials from the Department in the context of the recent very serious flooding. I appreciate that members may also wish to reflect on the more recent very severe cold weather. Before dealing with the flooding that occurred prior to Christmas and any other matters, it is relevant to set out for the committee's information the Minister's role in respect of this area and to describe the departmental and associated structures utilised in the recent crisis.

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government does not have a direct legislative role with regard to flooding. Substantially, the Office of Public Works has the primary role, particularly in respect of flood risk management. Local authorities often have a role in the context of dealing with the impact of flooding at local level and, furthermore, may in the context of planning, water supply and management or other functions, be able, through their actions, to influence the risk, avoidance and management of flooding.

The Minister has several roles emanating from his broad range of responsibilities relating to fire and emergency management, as well as more general oversight of local government. It is from these roles that the various organisational arrangements and actions stem. The organisational arrangement underpinning our approach to fire and emergency management has been subject to close review in recent years. In 2009 these were enhanced through the reorganisation of the Department's organisational arrangements and the introduction of other structures resulting in the establishment of the national directorate for fire and emergency management.

The decision to put the directorate in place drew, in part, from the experience gained through the fire services change programme 2005-2007 and the major emergency management development programme. The review process culminated in the launch, in mid-2009, of the structures comprehended in the national directorate for fire and emergency management. The putting in place of these new structures dealt conclusively with all previous reviews.

The objective of the new arrangements is to have a solid management structure at central government level, with a clear mandate and visibility to develop national policy and drive consistent achievement of value for money services by local authorities, while not interfering with existing and appropriate political accountability at national and local levels. The national directorate for fire and emergency management involves a tripartite and mutually supporting structure with a management board, a revamped fire and emergency management section within the local government division of the Department and a consultative committee. The three components operate as interdependent elements of a functioning national directorate.

There is in place a management board with independent chair, former Secretary General of the Department of Defence, Mr. David J. O'Callaghan. The board is otherwise comprised of representatives from the Department, a number of local authority county managers, a chief fire officer, the head of the office of emergency planning, a nominee from the insurance federation and international expertise in the form of the chief fire officer of the Strathclyde Fire Service. The board provides oversight and national leadership in respect of fire and emergency management and its delivery at local level.

The second element of the directorate is the departmental administrative and advisory staff of the local government division of the Department, with the national leadership role being undertaken through the designation of the Department's fire adviser, Mr. Hogan, as national director for fire and emergency management. In this context, the Department's roles comprehend support to the management board and implementation of ministerial roles with regard to policy formulation, training, the capital infrastructure programme, fire safety promotion and support to local authorities in the context of their role as fire authorities. It will be possible to provide more information on these roles should the committee so desire.

The third constituent element of the national directorate is a consultative committee to provide for the input of wide stakeholder involvement, including those of staff interests, in respect of all aspects of the directorate. The directorate has been in full operation for six months and the management board has a significant programme of work under way and has already signed off on several initiatives.

Among the experiences influencing the approach to the directorate was that drawn from the development process for the framework for major emergency management. The Government approved the new system in May 2006 and it was introduced subsequently during the period 2006 to 2008. The purpose of the new framework is to put in place arrangements that will enable the three principal response agencies — the local authorities, the Garda Síochána and the Health Service Executive, HSE — to co-ordinate their efforts whenever a major emergency occurs. The framework also provides for the involvement of other agencies and bodies such as the Defence Forces, Civil Defence and other relevant organisations.

The production of the framework was overseen by international consultants — OCTO (UK) — in the emergency management field. The consultants provided independent validation of the process and reported that the new framework is comprehensive and addresses key issues appropriately in an innovative way. It was their stated view that the framework is to a world-class standard.

In the wider sphere of emergency planning and management, based on work of the office of emergency planning, the Government approved the adoption of leadership roles by several Departments in a range of areas. In this context, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has a leadership role in the event of emergencies arising as a result of severe weather. The flooding crisis involved the utilisation of all of the foregoing elements, namely, the departmental elements of the national directorate for fire and emergency management, the Department taking a national co-ordination role and the operation of major emergency management arrangements at local level.

In considering the recent flooding, I acknowledge the deeply upsetting and traumatic nature of the experiences for many people. I also recognise that, in light of the damage to their property and the disruption to their lives in so many ways, this experience remains ongoing for a large number of people. It is not a matter for today to try to identify all of these experiences or compare one with the other as regards the degree of difficulty involved. However, it would be wrong not to recognise the heart-rending nature of many of these experiences. While recognising that there was a quite exceptional level of rainfall involved, we must affirm our desire to learn from this experience, both from an emergency response viewpoint and in the context of the role of local authorities. Mr. Hogan will describe more fully the deployment of these arrangements and his first-hand experience of dealing with the different Departments and agencies.

We cannot at this stage produce a full record of the incidence and nature of flooding in all parts of the country or, in the context of the Department's responsibilities, the responses at local level. The Department, in conjunction with the Office of Public Works, has asked local authorities to complete a questionnaire which will provide the data and material for the necessary comprehensive picture of the nature and extent of the flooding across the country. These comprehensive data will be essential for our evaluation of the flooding and the associated response.

While anxious to obtain this information from local authorities as soon as possible, I acknowledge that many local authority staff moved almost directly from dealing with the flooding crisis into that arising from the sustained extreme cold weather. I am also conscious that members will have had first-hand experience of the position at local level. We are keen to avail of today's opportunity to obtain as complete a picture as we can.

As members will be aware, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, and the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, Deputy Martin Mansergh, recently jointly published statutory planning guidelines on the planning system and flood risk management, which are aimed at ensuring a more consistent, rigorous and systematic approach to avoidance and minimisation of potential future flood risk and to fully incorporate flood risk assessment and management in the planning system. The new guidelines are aimed at ensuring development vulnerable to flooding will only be permitted by planning authorities in areas at high or even moderate risk of flooding in exceptional circumstances where decisions are based on clear and transparent criteria set out in the guidelines.

Where there is serious flooding, the role of the Department is to ensure the local authorities are prepared to respond promptly to ameliorate the worst effects in relation to those aspects for which they have direct responsibility and to lead the collaboration with the other principal response agencies — the Garda Síochána and Health Service Executive — the voluntary agencies and the Defence Forces to limit the effects on individuals whose lives may be put at risk or may be exposed to serious hardship. The management of the emergency response then falls to the local authorities and the other response agencies. It is a general and well accepted principle of emergency management that the response can only be delivered effectively locally.

As indicated, the framework for emergency management put in place in recent years enables the Garda Síochána, Health Service Executive and local authorities to prepare for and make a co-ordinated response to a variety of major emergencies, including flooding. All principal response agencies have been through a two year preparatory programme, which culminated with the operation of new format major emergency plans based on this framework since 30 September 2008. The various State and voluntary bodies used the procedures and training they received in responding to the flooding in their areas. The framework is also supported by a multi-agency protocol on flood emergencies produced in conjunction with the Office of Public Works and the guide to flood emergencies.

The Department discharged its national emergency co-ordination role through its convening and chairing of a national emergency response co-ordination committee. The national committee met first on Friday, 20 November and took its direction from the Government. The committee used the facilities at the national emergency co-ordination centre, NECC, located in Agriculture House in Kildare Street.

The operation of the committee is such that it brings together Departments, agencies and specialist services and front line response representatives, including local authorities, the Garda Síochána, HSE and Defence Forces. Deriving from the nature of the Minister's statutory responsibilities, the Department's role is primarily in co-ordinating at national level support for the emergency response. Once this emergency response comes to finality, the task of national co-ordination may be wound down. Other follow-up actions remain relevant subsequent to the emergency phase of the operation, for example, humanitarian relief.

As indicated, Mr. Hogan will describe more fully the co-ordination and other actions taken by way of emergency management. I acknowledge the commitment and sustained action taken by colleagues in local government and other agencies in responding to the situation, for which I am grateful. I also acknowledge and underline the support given by the Department of the Taoiseach in helping to underpin the Department's co-ordination role and in its support of the emergency response committee. I also thank the Department of Defence and office of emergency planning for their contribution.

The capacity to respond at local level derives from the management, emergency response and other capabilities developed over recent years. These draw, among other things, from the better local government programme which developed the management cadre in local authorities, the fire services change programme which contributed to the more recent modernisation of the Fire Service and the accompanying investment programme in physical and equipment infrastructure as well as training. In addition, the development of the framework for major emergency management, as adverted to earlier, provided the fundamentals of the approach to co-ordinating in emergencies involving multi-agency responses.

The Department was able to bring its national co-ordination role into play with the confidence that the ground had been prepared through the implementation of these measures over the period 2006 to 2008. Also from the perspective of the Minister's general oversight role of local government and without taking from local accountability and performance, the plans and programmes put in place in respect of and by local authorities were crucial to the responses at local level.

Completion of the Department's national co-ordination role in support of the front line emergency response led by the local authorities necessarily comprehends a review of the experience in the flooding crisis. The Minister has asked the national director to initiate such a review with very comprehensive terms of reference to allow the full functioning of the emergency response arrangements to be evaluated. The review will be undertaken and completed over the coming months.

Before asking Mr. Hogan to address the joint committee, I affirm our desire to listen carefully to members and the views to be expressed, bring these views to the attention of the Minister and take them into account in our future deliberations. Whatever we may feel about the nature of the co-ordination of the emergency response — the area in which the Department's role primarily rests — we know we can learn from this and hopefully put it to good use if called on in the future.

In accordance with the joint committee's invitation, I have focused my statement on the flooding crisis. However, the arrangements described also apply to our more recent and current experiences arising from the severe weather.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I apologise to the joint committee as I did not have time to prepare a script. I have circulated a hand-out and some documents, including the framework document for major emergency management and its appendices. This is a vital document which sets out the position and I propose to speak about it in depth.

I have been national director for fire and emergency management since 22 June 2009. I worked previously in the Department as principal fire adviser and prior to that in various local authority fire services. I propose to provide some detail on the framework for co-ordinated response, address the flooding which occurred in November 2009 and examine the issue of national emergency response co-ordination as well as the review of the emergency response. We can then discuss the current emergency arising from the extended period of snow and ice.

I emphasise that the mandate of the national directorate is in fire services and fire safety and major emergency management, that is, the co-ordination of the principal response agencies — the Garda Síochána, Health Service Executive and local authorities. The Department's role is as the lead Department for some of the national emergencies, as Mr. Dowling outlined.

The purpose of the framework for locally co-ordinated response is defined on its front page. It is a framework to enable the Garda Síochána, Health Service Executive and local authorities to prepare for and make a co-ordinated response to major emergencies resulting from fires, transport accidents, hazardous substances and severe weather. The document was published in September 2006 and is primarily inter-agency in nature.

I flagged some milestones in the major emergency development project. The review was commissioned in November 2004. The review process and drafting took place in 2005. The framework was approved by Government in 2006, as was a two year major emergency development programme for the period from 2006 to 2008 and a national steering group was formed to oversee it. The programme commenced on 12 September 2006 and, as planned, the new arrangements contained in the framework came into effect on 30 September 2008.

At the end of 2008, the various bodies involved, namely, Garda divisions, the Health Service Executive and local authorities, carried out an appraisal of their preparedness, including the steps they had performed, and reported on their preparedness. Without discussing the matter in great detail, the framework is based on an international systems concept for emergency management. It is a cyclical process involving preparedness, from risk assessment through to response and review, as my colleague noted. It is not about having an emergency plan.

Ireland has structures at national, regional and local level which enable the principal response agencies to work together. A risk assessment process contained in the framework was one of the first steps for the agencies in question. The intention is to identify the most likely threat. In most cases, flooding featured in the assessment. Each Garda division, HSE area and local authority has a new format of major emergency plan since 30 September 2008, the date on which the plans were adopted. The local major emergency plans link with other emergency plans, such as national plans, including the national emergency plan for nuclear accidents, the Department of Health and Children's plans for infectious disease control and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food's plans for animal disease control. They also link and can be linked with site-specific or event-specific local emergency plans such as Seveso emergency plans, airport emergency plans, port plans, sports event plans or major crowd event plans.

One of the most significant aspects of the framework was to introduce the concept of a lead agency for co-ordination. This was intended to address the old chestnut as to who is in charge in an emergency. Language is very important in this matter and "co-ordination", rather than "in charge", is the language that the framework adopts. The lead agency is essentially given responsibility and the mandate for the co-ordination function. That is the significant step that has taken place. The senior person from the lead agency will exercise the co-ordination role at the site, if it is a bus crash or other such incident, or at the local co-ordination centre, which is what one has seen in operation since November.

The framework introduced the idea of a generic co-ordination centre. Irrespective of whether the Garda, HSE or local authority is involved, the idea is that people would be using the same type of approach at the co-ordination centre. At least one existing building has been designated per city and county as a local co-ordination centre for use in interagency co-ordination. In the vast majority of cases, the local authority headquarters were considered the most suitable. One will have seen those centres in use. Dedicated spaces within local authority headquarters were used to manage the flooding emergency.

Allied with the generic co-ordination centre, there is a generic information management system. One of the main issues in emergency management is managing the flow of information. This is a simple system that was introduced for all agencies. It is a low-tech, rather than a high-tech, system and it is based of four boards. One monitors the current situation, the second deals with the key issues for the group involved, the third concerns the objectives and priorities in the circumstances, and the fourth records the actions.

Some 360 information managers were trained between April and June 2008 and the system has been used. It was obviously used to manage the flooding emergency. The system enables people who are experiencing a dearth of information or who are flooded with information to sort out the priorities and determine the main issues and trends, such that they can identify to where they need to divert the available resources. By definition, emergencies overwhelm and, therefore, one needs to divert resources to areas with the most pressing needs. The big issue in Cork arose when the wall was breached, with a consequent effect on the hospital. One must have a system to identify areas to where resources can be diverted. This is what the generic information management system does.

The development programme has been widely documented. In addition to the two documents the committee members have, there is a suite of guidance documents, multi-agency protocols and risk assessments. Each local authority, Garda division and HSE area has a new plan. There is older documentation associated with training and documentation on exercises and the appraisals. The programme has been well documented.

There has been significant training and induction of people in respect of key roles, such as controller of operations, on-site co-ordinator and chairman of the local co-ordination centre. The critical point is that 1,300 senior staff of the Garda, the local authorities and HSE participated in 88 training courses in the period 2007 to 2008. That is just in the interagency context. I do not refer to training within those organisations. The next stage comprised a series of exercises to practise what people picked up and test the system and plans. They are ongoing in areas. Reality has probably been sufficient and we probably do not need exercises in many cases.

My conclusion on the framework is that our principal response agencies have been through a thorough preparatory process in accordance with international best practice. The local co-ordination structures and processes kicked in and provided for co-ordination not only of the three principal response agencies, but also of the others necessarily drawn in, including the Defence Forces, the voluntary sector and, to varying extents, the community and business sectors. Everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet, which is critical. People were familiar with each other and worked together. This has been a significant achievement. Since the system has been implemented, there have been no issues arising or reports suggesting the framework document is flawed or that we have got it wrong. However, we must obviously review the whole area.

I have referred to local co-ordination and will now refer to national co-ordination. I am speaking about the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and will describe the process in which I have been involved regarding both flooding and the snow and ice. I propose to examine some of the similarities and differences between the two cases. What I say will be limited because I have come straight from the situation this morning. I am afraid this paper was prepared last night without the benefit of access to many of our papers. I would not swear by every fact and figure but am reasonably confident about most of them.

With regard to the preparedness of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, as Mr. Dowling has outlined, there are certain scenarios for which that Department is the lead Department. There has been restructuring, which resulted in the national directorate on 22 June, to take account of some of the changes. Almost immediately after we were mandated to do so, I prepared generic standard operating procedures for the national emergency response co-ordination committee. They draw on the experience of the Department in respect of the national emergency plan for nuclear accidents. I have circulated extracts and a briefing paper to members. It is from a working draft of the standard operating procedure, version 1.4, which I approved on 10 September 2009.

Having listened to the conversation of the committee, I do not know whether I need to go into much detail on the flooding itself. November 2009 was the wettest month on record in some areas and it followed other wet months. The river catchments were at saturation point when the rain of 17, 18 and 19 November fell. The result was widespread flooding in many river basins in the following days, which in turn resulted in extensive damage to residential, commercial and public buildings, in addition to the disruption of traffic and water supplies. The local authorities took on the role of lead agency, as described, and their work involved rescuing people stranded in vehicles. Some people who were rescued had been washed away by flood waters.

Houses and businesses were flooded and people were evacuated. There were road closures and infrastructure was damaged. Roads, bridges, culverts and water and sewage treatment plants were damaged. The impact was such that people were in very difficult circumstances for a significant period. They have obviously moved into the clean-up phase. Issues arose in respect of temporary accommodation, insurance and dealing with all the misery that flooding can bring.

Let me explain the role of the national emergency response co-ordination committee in respect of the November flooding. On Thursday, 19 November, my staff were monitoring potential flooding situations being reported that day. At 11 a.m. on Friday, 20 November, I briefed the Minister, Deputy John Gormley, and senior management on the situation that had developed or was developing. At 12 noon, having consulted the Minister and senior management, I decided to convene a meeting of the national emergency response co-ordination committee for the first time. It was held at 3 p.m., three hours later, in the national emergency co-ordination centre. Two hours later, the Taoiseach was briefed by the Minister and me and he confirmed and supported our national co-ordination arrangements.

On Saturday, 21 November, the Minister and I visited Cork, Clare and Galway. The national emergency response committee met at 3 p.m. We briefed the Taoiseach, after which we returned to the centre and held the first press briefing. On Sunday, 22 November, the meeting was held at 12 noon – I would not swear to that detail – and it was followed by a briefing of the full Cabinet. From 23 November to 1 December, the national emergency response committee met daily. From 2 December, we scaled back our operation and met every second day. I am not precisely sure of the dates. On Tuesday, 8 December, we met for the final time and held an initial review of the whole national co-ordination operation.

As I have explained, the systems approach is part of my approach to emergency management. Reviewing what one has done, with a view to learning what one can, is an essential and standard part of the approach. Our proposal for a review process was approved on 22 December 2009 and the review will be carried out in accordance with international literature in the same way as the framework was developed. It will use an action research methodology and will probably be guided by the work of Enrico Quarantelli, who has been one of the main writers on the subject for a number of years and has developed methodologies for evaluation. We will use the framework for benchmarks to measure how well the co-ordination worked.

Chairman

Before I call on Deputy Hogan I will ask a few questions. What is the linkage between the emergency response co-ordination committee and the Government?

Mr. Seán Hogan

During the flooding review the Taoiseach and the full Cabinet were briefed on three occasions by either myself or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley.

Chairman

Was Mr. Des Dowling or Ms Geraldine Tallon involved in those briefings?

Mr. Seán Hogan

They were not directly involved. If the Minister was involved in one of our meetings, we would go to the Taoiseach. On a number of occasions we were invited to brief the Cabinet after our meetings had concluded.

Chairman

I see from one of the charts that Mr. Hogan decided to convene the emergency response committee. Whose responsibility is it to start the ball rolling in that regard?

Mr. Seán Hogan

The document indicates that it is my decision but I would not take the decision in isolation. I would take it after discussion with the Minister and senior staff in the Department.

Chairman

When was the first meeting held to deal with the snow and the freezing conditions? I do not ask for a specific time of day but would like to know if meetings were held on those matters.

Mr. Des Dowling

Mr. Hogan will go through the dates and times. The Chairman asked about the relationship between the committee and the Government. The standing of the committee derives from the Government's approval of a set of arrangements. Once the committee is convened, it has a certain standing and that is reinforced by the briefing which takes place once the committee gets going. It has been a matter for the Minister and senior management to review the situation and convene the committee accordingly.

Chairman

What meetings were held on the recent climate problems, such as the snow and the freezing conditions? When did they start?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I can take the Chairman through a timeline.

Chairman

I am asking about the emergency response co-ordination committee.

Mr. Seán Hogan

There was a build-up to the formal convening of the emergency response co-ordination committee. The freezing conditions began in December and local authorities implemented road-gritting procedures under the ice alert system of the NRA. They have in excess of 200 gritting machines and use their salt stocks. Local authorities continued to grit routes comprising 2,750 km of national primary road, 2,750 km of national secondary road and 4,500 km of other roads. The cold spell was forecast to continue and, on 30 December, the Department made contact with local authorities and the NRA about the situation. On Thursday, 31 December a situation assessment report was sent to the Minister and senior departmental staff. On Monday, 4 January the Department reviewed the situation internally and decided to convene an interdepartmental meeting, rather than an emergency response co-ordination committee meeting, for the following day, Tuesday, 5 January. The meeting was held in the Custom House, as distinct from the national emergency co-ordination centre. The situation was reviewed and emerging issues were considered.

Chairman

Who chaired that meeting?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I think I did but I would not swear to it without checking the records. A further meeting was scheduled for the following day, 6 January, in the Department of Transport. At this stage many of the issues were connected with transportation. I think the meeting was led by an official of the Department of Transport but I cannot swear to that. Following that meeting, the Taoiseach was briefed by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, and senior departmental officials. On the Wednesday, the Taoiseach requested that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, activate the co-ordination arrangements as was done during the November flooding.

On Thursday, 8 January the first formal emergency response co-ordination committee convened, under my chairmanship, in the national emergency co-ordination centre to review the situation and to deal with the emergent issues.

Chairman

Last Thursday was 7 January.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I do not have my diary so cannot give the exact dates.

Chairman

It was at the end of last week anyway.

Mr. Seán Hogan

Since that date the emergency response co-ordination committee has met daily.

Chairman

It took until Thursday, 7 January until the first meeting was held. Mr. Hogan made clear in his presentation that climate issues were within the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Mr. Seán Hogan

Yes, severe weather is dealt with by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Chairman

The Department of Transport seems to have convened some meetings as the lead authority but the responsibility then seems to have come back to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. If the issue was weather conditions, why did it ever drift away from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government? It appears that time was lost in the process.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I would not use the word "drift". The situation had been monitored by ourselves and the Department of Transport since the previous week and up to 3 January or 4 January. While the first formal meeting of the committee took place on the Thursday, the first interdepartmental meeting took place on the Tuesday. As with any crisis, issues emerge and on those days the issues were transport-related.

Chairman

They were caused by climate and weather issues.

Mr. Seán Hogan

They were caused by an extended severe weather issue, such as ice and snow.

Mr. Des Dowling

Our task was to keep in touch with the steps that were being taken and to monitor the situation to decide if a multi-agency response was required. As Mr. Hogan said, three things became very clear as the week progressed, namely, that the extreme weather was sustained, it was getting worse and the forecasts were for it to continue into the future. These three factors made it clear that it was not a one-dimensional issue relating to roads and transport. The consequent effects on the lives of individuals around the country necessitated a multi-agency response. That is the key point at which the committee must bring the different parties to the table. We assessed that more fully throughout meetings on the Tuesday in question. As we all know, the weather continued to take hold and as its impact became more severe around the country the multi-agency approach became absolutely vital. It is at that point the committee needs to kick in, in a formal sense.

In the flooding the multi-agency element was there from the outset and therefore, of necessity, the committee was brought together almost immediately.

Chairman

I take up the last two points with Mr. Dowling. Last week most of the country was infuriated by a programme on RTE in which we saw a string of national agencies and well-paid senior people, all of whom said flooding was not their responsibility. Flooding was not the responsibility of the local authorities, Waterworks Ireland or the OPW. Speaker after speaker said it was not their responsibility. That drove me mad.

I refer to Mr. Dowling's opening statement. The first sentence in paragraph 4 states: "The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government does not have a direct legislative role in relation to flooding". Every single person has washed their hands of responsibility in this area. Mr. Dowling says there is a leadership role but he makes it very clear in his opening statement there is no legislative role and that is part of the problem.

I wish to tease this out further. I am very pleased to meet Mr. Hogan whom I never met before. He seems very confident concerning his role. I wish to get a fix on where this fits into what I term overall government. Is Mr. Hogan a principal officer?

Mr. Seán Hogan: Yes.

Chairman

I shall start with that. There are 15 Secretaries General and, in each Department, probably half a dozen assistant secretaries. There are about 100 people above Mr. Hogan's rank. How many principal officers are in his Department? Mr. Dowling might know this. Are there 30, 40 or 50?

Mr. Des Dowling

Around 35.

Chairman

With 15 Departments that means there are probably 600 principal officers and in the higher grades of the local authorities there are managers and directors of services. As Chairman of this committee, my first finding is that the fact that this national emergency response committee is being chaired by a person whose rank is principal officer says it all. I mean no disrespect. Mr. Hogan probably should be at a higher rank. It is utterly unacceptable that this committee should have been led by anybody ranked lower than Secretary General level. The idea that it is not dealt with by a Secretary General or even an assistant secretary but that one goes down through the ranks of the public service to pick one of 600 principal officers to lead the response is unacceptable.

I do not know whether the grade of the person to lead the response emerged from the document produced in 2006. I am not talking about political accountability here though people may talk about that too. However, from a public service point of view and leaving out the political factor, the situation is that one goes down the ranks of the public service and hundreds of people to find a person to chair this committee which is over the OPW, the ESB, local authorities and all the bodies we mentioned. I am appalled that it is not a Secretary General who deals with this job. Even an assistant secretary would not have the rank to deal with a national emergency like this. I cannot believe how it was identified early on that this should be the person to lead the response. This is nothing personal concerning Mr. Hogan and I wish he were on a higher grade. The fact that the system has decided a person so low down the ranks——

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

It is not the system, it is the Government.

Chairman

I am coming to that. Where did the recommendation come from that one of the 600 principal officers in the public service should be chairman of this committee? If it was a Government decision so be it but however it was made years ago it was a wrong decision. Do the delegates know from where the decision came?

Mr. Des Dowling

I have a couple of introductory comments, dealing first with the legislation. It is always important to try to make this clear and therefore we have dealt with matters where there is not a legislative role. I hope we also made clear in the statement where the leadership role is. Although there might not be a substantive role I would not want to underplay the importance of the co-ordination. That is implied by the Chairman's subsequent comments that the task of co-ordination is a very critical one. The framework approved by the Government gives the Minister and his Department a central role in its regard. The legislative role also extends to broad oversight of the local government system and again there is a co-ordination and leadership role here. I certainly would not want to minimise those things but they are quite different roles to that covered by legislation for the OPW and so on, which is of interest to the committee.

We then come to the question of how the committee is organised. We are very fortunate in having somebody of the experience and calibre of Mr. Hogan in the Department. There was not, and never has been, any difficulty for the Department's purposes with regard to the committee as established in these two cases, either in respect of the authority available to Mr. Hogan and its substantiation by either the senior management of my Department or, as I have recognised, the support given by the Department of the Taoiseach. The question of the grade of the individual, in terms of modern public administration, is not the issue. The question is the authority with which the person has been——

Chairman

If it is not an issue, a clerical officer could have done the job of chairing the committee.

Mr. Des Dowling

The Chairman exaggerates that point somewhat.

Chairman

Either it is an issue or it is not.

Mr. Des Dowling

At senior management level, between Secretary General, assistant secretary and principal officer, individuals carry significant responsibilities and chair similar committees across the——

Chairman

In his opening statement Mr. Dowling asked for a flow of information from this committee to him. A committee of this kind should be chaired by somebody at Secretary General level. People talk about leadership. How can one appoint one of the 35 principal officers in the Department and say that this offers leadership? I stress again to Mr. Hogan that I do not take from his ability but a higher level should have been chosen to demonstrate leadership.

I call Deputy Hogan who assures me he is no relation to Mr. Hogan.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I do not think we are related. The only problem is that both of us would have descended from Tipperary.

Mr. Seán Hogan: We all have our problems.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Many phrases were mentioned by Mr. Dowling regarding this and that document and this and that committee and it is quite confusing. If one were not directly involved one would not understand it very well. What is the status of the framework document which Mr. Dowling waved around? What does it do? Does it say how to make a plan?

Mr. Seán Hogan: Yes. I have tried to explain the process. Nowadays and for several years the thinking has been to have a systems approach, not just have a plan. One goes through an entire process. This set out the process each agency went through from 2006 to 2008. The status of the actual document is that it was adopted by Government decision. On the front it is signed by the three Ministers of the time and the introduction is signed by the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Health and Children and Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I want to get that clear because everybody thinks it is the actual plan.

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is a framework.

Deputy Phil Hogan

It helps give guidance on how to make a plan.

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is stronger than guidance. This is a framework within which people operate. Many countries are moving to this concept of a framework. Ireland was one of the first countries to publish a framework in this area and this document is up there.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Obviously, according to this framework as drawn up we were not expecting severe weather.

Mr. Seán Hogan

We were.

Deputy Phil Hogan

There are 120 words on page 38 of the framework plan devoted to severe weather plans. I read this but would not know from it who was to be directly responsible. It is very weak. I draw members' attention to page 38 and these 120 words. From early November until now we have had a severe weather crisis and it is not finished yet. We developed a more exhaustive plan for nuclear accidents but are now dealing with flooding, snow and frost. How is the framework for major emergency management rolled out? Does the emergency committee ask the local authorities or agencies to devise a local response plan? Is that what takes place next?

Mr. Seán Hogan

Yes. Each body is required to have and has written its own major emergency plan. I am sorry I did not make that clear.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Each of the local agencies that come together interactively must draw up their own plan. Is that correct?

Mr. Seán Hogan

That is right.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Who validates that?

Mr. Seán Hogan

They are validated in two ways. They are validated by the regional groups. There are regional steering groups comprised of the Garda, the HSE and local authorities.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Does every local area have a local response plan?

Mr. Seán Hogan

Yes.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Are these validated by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No. The appraisal process is validated. It was conducted at the end of December 2008 and has been validated by our Department.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Did every local area come up trumps under the appraisal?

Mr. Seán Hogan

Yes. There were several issues. We wrote back to each body highlighting areas we believed there were issues to be further developed. That was done in the first quarter of 2009.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Everyone was ready to rock and roll in respect of severe weather arising from the appraisal. Is that correct?

Mr. Seán Hogan

In respect of any kind of emergency. The principle is to have generic emergency management which ensures the co-ordination system will work, the structures and the right people are in place around the table. The issues will change and vary. This is based on a generic plan. I point out to the Deputy that there are not only 121 words in respect of severe weather.

Deputy Phil Hogan

That is what I counted.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I have some more reading for the Deputy, if he does not mind. Appendix F6 sets out how Met Éireann sends around the severe weather warning. On flooding, there is a guide to flood emergencies which is available on the website, www.mem.ie. I did not bring a copy for everyone in the House. There is also a multi-agency protocol for flood emergencies.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I would not like to depend on the advice the emergency committee received from Met Éireann on this occasion. That is all I will say about the appendix which relates to Met Éireann. Does Mr. Hogan believe the meteorological information he was getting was accurate?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I have full confidence in it. I express my gratitude for the work Met Éireann colleagues have carried out with us on the two emergencies. We have worked very closely with Met Éireann since November.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Is that why it took two and a half weeks before the national emergency committee sat?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No.

Deputy Phil Hogan

When were the local co-ordinating centres put into operation for the flooding and weather crises?

Mr. Seán Hogan

In the case of the flooding, they were activated immediately. We were in Cork and Ennis on Saturday 21 November in both the co-ordination centres in Cork City Hall and in Ennis. We also attended the co-ordination centre in Ballinasloe. We were not in the Galway County Council headquarters, but certainly those two were in operation on that Saturday and had been in operation since before that date. In fact, one of the issues that has arisen for review is why no one actually declared a major emergency. One of the comments people have made to me was that the co-ordination committees had been in session and working together from 11 a.m. on the Thursday morning such that they did not need to declare a major emergency to get everyone to come together. In several cases, this was the reason people did not do so.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Many people say the postman in Donegal was more accurate than the meteorological office in respect of the snow in Donegal.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I have no wish to comment on weather forecasting.

Deputy Johnny Brady

The postman also stated there would be a good summer last year.

Deputy Phil Hogan

He said there will be a good spring.

Mr. Seán Hogan

The committee will realise we rely on international literature, best practice and scientific advice.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I understand that. This is why I believe we need something more in respect of the framework document for severe weather plans. If I rang any local authority today or six months ago, would I have been handed a document outlining the procedure for a severe weather crisis from a local response point of view?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I guess that would have been the case for most bodies, although I have not seen all the documents.

Chairman

They would have been cleared by the members as well.

Mr. Seán Hogan

Many of these documents and plans are on the websites, including the ice alerts systems and the various other elements of the plans.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am asking these questions because of the tardiness with which we saw action take place and the lack of co-ordination. I refer to flooding in Cork in particular. Was Mr. Hogan satisfied with the inter-agency co-ordination between the local authorities and the ESB in respect of the flooding of Cork city?

Mr. Seán Hogan

It would be premature for me to comment on that.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Therefore, Mr. Hogan was not satisfied?

Mr. Seán Hogan

It would be premature of me to comment on that at the moment. I hope to be involved in reviewing the matter. One of the aspects I hope to review is the inter-agency co-ordination and the involvement of other bodies, including the ESB.

Deputy Phil Hogan

If Mr. Hogan was satisfied I am sure he would inform us of it.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I am not in a position to comment on that at the moment.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Is it of concern to Mr. Hogan that there is no flood monitoring stations in the Lee valley?

Mr. Seán Hogan

Flood warning and monitoring systems are of concern to more than me. However, I emphasise and repeat that I deal with emergency response. This is the area I have worked on developing, as distinct from the broader area.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Minister for State with responsibility for the OPW, Deputy Martin Mansergh, has indicated that we will have an early warning system. Have we made any progress in respect of tendering for that scheme?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I am not involved in that process and I am not in a position to advise the Deputy on that matter.

Deputy Phil Hogan

That is all for the moment.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I welcome Mr. Dowling and Mr. Hogan to the committee. There appears to be many documents and publications in circulation, including the document given to us this afternoon by the deputation and the planning system and flood risk management report. There are a host of other reports too. I wish to find out who is at the top of the pyramid of documentation and, in the case of an emergency, who is running the show. Will the delegation explain to the committee how an emergency is defined? When does someone say the State is in a state of emergency and that emergency measures must be taken on board? I refer to the recent flooding. Was the flood declared a national emergency? Was the flood in November declared a national disaster? At what stage was the recent cold snap of weather declared an emergency and at what stage did emergency measures kick in?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I refer to page 15 of the framework document which defines a major emergency. It may be worth repeating what the document states. The framework defines a major emergency as follows:

A Major Emergency is any event which, usually with little or no warning, causes or threatens death or injury, serious disruption of essential services or damage to property, the environment or infrastructure beyond the normal capabilities of the principal emergency services in the area in which the event occurs, and requires the activation of specific additional procedures and the mobilisation of additional resources to ensure an effective, co-ordinated response.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Who makes that value judgment? Is the emergency committee running the show?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No. These decisions are made by someone within the local authority, the Garda or the HSE.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

While the emergency committee is overseeing a national emergency, does it not make the value judgment that we are in a state of emergency?

Mr. Seán Hogan

We do not declare a state of emergency.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

If a local authority, the Garda or the HSE determines an emergency has occurred in a particular part of Cork, do they have a direct line of communication to the emergency committee such that they can inform it that there is a state of emergency and that the emergency committee must do its job?

Mr. Seán Hogan

They have a direct line to our national directorate and we have a 24 hour line in place. In any event, there is a requirement in paragraph 5.4 which outlines that every time a major emergency is declared, we must be informed and the Departments of Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform must be informed as well.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Was there an emergency called for the flooding in Cork and as a result of the recent cold snap? When was the emergency declared in those situations?

Mr. Seán Hogan

We were informed by people in Cork city and County Cork of threatened flooding, which might result in the declaration of a major emergency on Thursday 19 November.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Was an emergency declared in Cork?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I do not know that.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Mr. Hogan's man was at the end of a telephone line expecting a call. Did someone from Cork ring up and state there was an emergency?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No. The phone call on 19 November stated that they were in a developing situation and it looked as if they might have to declare a major emergency. I do not believe we received a call that they had declared a major emergency.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Thus, there was no——

Mr. Seán Hogan

I cannot swear to that and I cannot answer for Cork.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

This is something to which I will come soon. These are matters about which Mr. Hogan was very explicit in his presentation this afternoon, namely, the mechanisms of communication. I imagine the most critical part of a communication process is, first, someone declaring an emergency and then someone from the emergency committee picking up the message. Did that happen?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No. In the case of the flooding in Cork, we were aware from Thursday, 19 November that there was an evolving situation. Without the declaration, the effect was the same in terms of the co-ordination kicking in. When I was there on Saturday, 21 November, I did not ask if they had declared a major emergency because the people in Cork were managing the crisis on that morning. They were busy using the co-ordination structures that would have kicked in if they had used the major emergency plan based on this framework.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Neither Cork County Council nor Cork County Council contacted your structure and declared an emergency situation?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, they did contact us to warn us that there was a situation——

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

A possible situation.

Mr. Seán Hogan

——that they might be declaring.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

They never came back to confirm it?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No they did not come back to confirm but they did confirm it. That was on the Thursday.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

With regard to the recent cold snap, was an emergency declared in that situation? Was the committee contacted?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Neither the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government nor the Department of Transport contacted you to say there is a national emergency due to the cold weather?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Would you see that as being a protocol that would assist the functioning of the committee, knowing there is an emergency in place so the committee would know it needs to be activated?

Mr. Seán Hogan

In the same way as the framework and the local major emergency plans, the benefit of the exercise that had been done for two years with local authorities, the Garda and the health service, was that people came in and worked together. The objective of the plans is to get people working together. Once that happens, that is the important point.

This will be one of the interesting issues in the review I propose to undertake, to find out why people did not declare a major emergency. In a number of places people have not declared a major emergency and I would like to know why. Is there a reluctance to do it or is there something wrong with the structure?

From my perspective, the co-ordination structure kicked in, the information management structure that supports it functioned and on 21 November I saw it operating in Cork City Council and in the local authority headquarters in Ennis.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I find it extraordinary that there are protocols and documents that deal with emergency situations but there is no mechanism that states we are in a state of emergency.

Mr. Seán Hogan

There is in this one but not in the national element.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Can Mr. Hogan confirm for me this afternoon that neither Cork City Council nor Cork County Council contacted him to state there was an emergency taking place? We turned on our televisions and radios and read the newspapers to see that Cork was in a state of emergency but no one declared it.

Mr. Seán Hogan

They had contacted us to say they thought they might declare a state of emergency, that the situation was developing in such a way.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

An emergency has three elements: preplanning, the emergency itself and the post-emergency period. With regard to preplanning for an emergency, there are mechanisms that must be examined. Mr. Hogan talked about local and regional reports being put together and local emergency plans.

A circular was sent to all county managers on 30 November which included a detailed questionnaire. It was to be sent back to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government by 18 December. Am I to assume the details of the responses to the circular will go to the emergency planning committee or will they remain with the Minister, whom we learned earlier has no direct responsibility for emergencies?

Mr. Seán Hogan: The national emergency response co-ordinating committee is a vehicle to bring together Departments, State agencies, specialist agencies such as Met Éireann and various other bodies, including frontline responders, city and county managers, the HSE, the Garda Síochána——

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

That is not the question I am asking. The Minister wrote to every city and county manager asking them for a detailed response to questions such as locations and numbers of residential properties evacuated, numbers of people evacuated, details of alternative accommodation, provision of emergency telephone helplines and publication of such numbers. In Cork that was an issue, the freephone number was not in place until Monday afternoon. There are suggestions as to how flood response measures might be improved in future and general descriptions of the rain storm that caused the flood. Detailed information was requested by the Department with a deadline of 18 December. I assume the Department now has that. Earlier in the meeting the Minister said it is not his responsibility, despite the impression that it is. Is this information going to be sent to the emergency planning committee?

Mr. Seán Hogan

Not to the committee. Can I get this clear? The committee met from 20 November until 8 December. I would live happily without that committee ever meeting again.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Flood risk is here to stay and it will meet again. I hope it learns from what is happening.

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is a response co-ordination committee and it kicks in when required. The documentation will not come to the committee.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Will a summary of the documentation be sent to the committee?

Mr. Des Dowling

The committee is not a standing committee so it is not a case of the information received on the circular coming to it. That circular was a joint exercise between the Department and the OPW. The view taken when this happened previously was that rather than the two Departments or offices writing to local authorities, we would send a joint circular to gather information in which we are interested and the information the OPW wants. It is a genuine attempt to gather information about what happened. That will feed into all deliberations.

The separate matter of the response to these events as they happen is the structure that kicks in during such a major emergency response phase. It does not, however, carry on. As Departments with joint interests in these matters we want to work with our colleagues to see what we will learn from it. The raw material that came through in response to that circular will be essential to that.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

When the emergency kicked in, no one had anything but the highest praise for local authority officials and everyone else. They did the best they could but ultimately that is confined by the type of plan they are given for emergencies. That is why I raised the issue of risk assessment. It is at the centre of all of this. An emergency plan can be based only on the risk assessments that were carried out. Mr. Dowling said these emergency plans are on the different websites but I would question the risk assessments that were carried out.

In Cork, two things happened. Flooding in Cork has historically taken place with floods coming up the river. If there is a south-easterly storm with a high spring tide, the eastern region of Cork city will flood. In this scenario the flood developed from the western region as a result of a yet unexplained situation at the Inniscarra dam. I note that the witnesses will not commit themselves to the specifics of what happened there because they claim not to have all the information.

We know that 500 million cubic tonnes was passing through the Inniscarra dam every second. I know Mr. Hogan's other role with regard to the Fire Service means he has a particular expertise and that is why he has this role. We might find a higher ranking civil servant but not with Mr. Hogan's type of qualifications. Was a risk assessment, as part of the emergency plan for the Cork area, carried out that determined the consequences if so many cubic tonnes of water were let flow through the dam? That is an engineering calculation. An engineer can calculate that if one moves so much water in a particular direction at a particular time and speed, it will raise the sea, tide or water level in a city. If Mr. Hogan cannot give me an answer this afternoon, I will gladly wait for it. However, can he confirm whether, as part of the emergency plan for Cork, a risk assessment was carried out regarding the volume of water that would go through the Inniscarra dam? This also applies to other regions where there are ESB dams. Have risk assessments been carried out regarding the amount of water going through them?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I can confirm that a risk assessment process was carried out based on a guidance document which we issued as part of the process. That was carried out on a number of levels and in a number of ways. Each individual agency carried out a risk assessment. They then met jointly in their emergency management region and pooled their information, because what might be the ten top issues from a Garda perspective would not be same as those from a local authority or a HSE perspective.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Can Mr. Hogan confirm this afternoon that part of the risk assessment was a quantification of the risk of moving that amount of water through the dam?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, I would never have that detail. I am sure flooding would have been considered but it might well have related to the normal flooding experience in Cork, which is gradual tidal flooding. In the Cork region there were other areas such as Mallow and Fermoy, so I have no doubt that flooding would have featured as an issue in the risk assessment that was carried out.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I have two final questions. Mr. Hogan said in his presentation that local authority headquarters were selected as being the most suitable co-ordination centres in most cases. Peculiarly, the local authority headquarters in Cork was flooded during the crisis.

Mr. Seán Hogan

Yes.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The headquarters had been built on a flood plain so it was always going to be a risk. Given that an extensive amount of money was spent on developing the headquarters, it is something I believe should be included in the review Mr. Hogan mentioned. Mr. Hogan said an initial review of national co-ordination was carried out on 8 December 2009.

Mr. Seán Hogan

Yes.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Is that report in the public domain?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, it has not been reported yet. That was a round table discussion, a little like this meeting, where we went around the room to find out what people thought. This is the first time the national emergency co-ordination arrangement has been run.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Will a publication arise from it?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I intend to do a report as part of my systems approach. I have been mandated to do a review report and I intend to include the national co-ordination as part of that review.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Does Mr. Hogan's committee have the remit to investigate agencies where further questions must be asked of them? Can the committee, for example, question the ESB in greater detail about the management of various dams, such as the Inniscarra dam? Can it investigate the role of Cork City and County Councils and other local authorities or is the committee's role that of an observer, which does not have teeth? Ultimately, the public want to know that there is a committee in existence that has the teeth to investigate, show leadership and run the show in the case of emergency. Does the committee have investigative powers with regard to the information coming from the different groups with which it is working?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I do not have any specific investigative powers, nor would that be the approach I would recommend. I am a believer in the systems approach to emergency management. That involves reviewing and gathering information in a situation where people contribute to things. One of the ways to kill co-ordination is to introduce the concept of investigation. How would people work with the Garda if the Garda then turned around and investigated the work they were doing? One can have the best structures and processes but that will kill effective co-ordination. The approach I suggest is not from the top of my head but is in the international literature on how one reviews. That is why I mentioned Enrico Quarantelli, in particular, as an approach for evaluating the effectiveness of co-ordination.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Unfortunately, international best practice does not reflect the number of quangos in this country, from which Members of the House cannot get responses to parliamentary questions. I hope the committee will not be another quango, and I wish it the best of luck with its operations. However, the review Mr. Hogan will carry out is dependent upon the level of co-operation he receives from the various stakeholders. He does not have the remit to seek further information other than what they give him.

Mr. Seán Hogan

If there are issues, we will try to explore them with people from all areas.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I welcome Mr. Hogan and Mr. Dowling. I differ slightly from what the Chairman said earlier.

Chairman

No problem.

Deputy Johnny Brady

It is not always the person at the top who is the best to lead a campaign. I did not know Mr. Hogan other than having seen him on television, listened to him on the radio and read about him in the newspapers but he appears to have done a very good job as chairman of the emergency response committee. I compliment him on that. He was probably thrown in at the deep end and it was not an easy job.

We experienced a crisis some years ago in Meath when there was a serious school bus crash and the rapid response of the emergency services at that time was second to none. I will never forget that excellent response. Deputy Hogan spoke about county councils having emergency area plans. I do not agree with my county council on everything but every year it puts in place an emergency plan. The plan is given to public representatives. It provides the telephone numbers of the different people involved in the different areas and so forth. I will not discuss the flooding, as we will examine the situation ourselves. Thank God it did not happen in my area although we bore the brunt of the bad weather. The frost and snow occurred at Christmas and, naturally, many of our officials were on family breaks and so forth, to which they are entitled. Some of them had returned to their families in other counties. Not all their families live in the county and the officials go home to their families at weekends or occasionally. Many of them were on holidays. It was a difficult time for everybody.

However, the roads continued to be gritted before and over Christmas. Unfortunately, only the national primary and secondary routes are gritted. I believe regional roads should be gritted as well. Perhaps Mr. Dowling will say this to the Minister. Most regional roads lead to major county towns so it is important that they be gritted so people can get into or out of town to work. People were complaining about the footpaths and the roads in villages and small towns. Much business was lost because of that.

The last heavy snowfall we experienced was 28 years ago, in 1982. As bad as the current snowfall has been, in 1982 people in my constituency who worked in Dublin or in other parts of the country did not get home for a week or ten days. Thank God, we do not have that situation at present. It might have happened in Cork but it has not happened in Meath. With regard to the frost, farmers are suffering drastically. They could not harvest their potatoes in the autumn because of the rain. There are thousands of acres of potatoes and last Friday we visited a farm to see the damage that had been done. I spoke to an elderly man on the farm who told me that the last hard frost to occur in this country that caused as much damage to crops was in 1947, which is more than 50 years ago.

It is very difficult to predict the weather and, indeed, the weather forecasters were not always accurate. They predicted snow and frost but said there would not be a thaw until next weekend, yet the thaw started Sunday night and yesterday. It is, therefore, difficult for people to trust the weather forecast because it is not always correct.

There was a serious scarcity of salt for use on our roads. That is understandable, particularly in view of the fact that recent winters have been extremely mild and not much salt was required. What is the position with regard to stockpiles of salt? Is it possible to stockpile it from year to year? I am aware that salt melts if it is left exposed to the elements. However, we probably do not have the facilities to stockpile sufficient amounts of salt to cater for difficulties such as those caused by the recent bad weather.

When compilation of the report to which Mr. Hogan referred is completed, it would be important that the committee should receive a copy of it. We could then invite Mr. Hogan to come before us again to discuss the report. It is vital that Members of the Oireachtas who represent Cork, Galway, Clare and other areas that were badly affected by flooding should be given the opportunity to peruse the report and tease out the relevant issues. They would also have a chance to comment on matters which might not be contemplated in the report. I hope Mr. Hogan, Mr. Dowling and other experts might come before the committee at a later date to discuss this report.

Chairman

Is Mr. Hogan in a position to indicate when the report will be completed?

Mr. Seán Hogan

It has already been delayed by a couple of weeks in light of the recent weather events.

Chairman

Will it contemplate both the flooding and those recent weather events?

Mr. Seán Hogan

As far as I am aware, many issues remain outstanding in the context of the current situation. We have not even considered the nature of the review process which might be put in place in respect of the most recent weather events.

Chairman

I accept that a report is being compiled in respect of the flooding that occurred prior to Christmas. Will such a report be compiled in respect of the recent snow?

Mr. Des Dowling

The Minister specifically asked that a report be carried out in respect of the flooding to which the Chairman refers. He has not, as yet, made a request with regard to how we might deal with the recent snow. We will revert to the committee——

Chairman

I thought the emergency response co-ordination committee would have compiled a report on its own initiative.

Mr. Seán Hogan

The emergency response co-ordination committee is not a standing committee.

Chairman

I understand that.

Mr. Seán Hogan

As already stated, I would have been happy if that committee had not been obliged to meet again during my working life. Unfortunately, however, it was obliged to reconvene within a month of its previous meeting. Once the committee stands down, I will certainly not be reconvening it to consider issues relating to recent weather events. It is not a standing committee in the way that this committee is a standing committee.

Chairman

Members were completely confused by our guests' opening presentation. What does the directorate do? Does the chairman of the directorate, without being asked by the Minister, not carry out a review with regard to how the emergency response co-ordination committee operated?

Mr. Seán Hogan

In the normal management structures, there is a board to which I report.

Mr. Des Dowling

What we were trying to——

Chairman

What is the position with regard to the directorate?

Mr. Des Dowling

——was outline the position with regard to the recent emergency and highlight the specific structures relating to dealing with what occurred. In this regard, I refer, in particular, to the emergency response co-ordination committee. Those structures operate alongside those of the Department and its internal organisation. As part of the recent reorganisation of our structures relating to dealing with fire and emergency services, we put in place certain new structures. One of those is a management board which has an independent chair. That board has a mandate in respect of the development of fire and emergency services generally, in so far as they relate to the Minister's area of responsibility. That is part of the management and operational structure of how the Department does its business in conjunction with local authorities.

This, along with the resources available to it, including the designated national director, Mr. Hogan, comes into play in circumstances where the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is the lead Department. The emergency response co-ordination committee, which Mr. Hogan currently chairs, only exists for the purpose of dealing with any crisis which may be at hand. If another Department takes the lead role in respect of an emergency, we may or may not be involved. That would depend on whether there is local authority involvement. The committee only comes into play, when required, during a crisis. Its operations are overseen by whichever Department has the lead role in respect of any given crisis. The committee can then draw upon whatever resources are available within the relevant Department. In our case, this would be the national directorate for fire and emergency services.

Chairman

I wish to move on.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I thank our guests for their presentation. There is no doubt that lessons must be learned from what has happened. I live in the north west, where six inches of snow fell on 19 December. The roads in the area remain covered in ice. There are people who have not had access to water supplies since 23 December. I agree with previous speakers that people are entitled to time off at Christmas in order that they might see their families. Unfortunately, there was no emergency response in my area. The various councils gritted the national primary and secondary routes and regional roads in an effort to keep them open so that people could get to work. However, there were people in particular areas who did not have access to water supplies and who could not use their cars to travel to places where they could obtain water. After the Christmas holiday, the local authority eventually provided tankers at which people could get water. Even today, there are people in my area who do not have water.

As a public representative, I did not know where to turn with regard to obtaining assistance for the people to whom I refer. People deserve to be treated better than has been the case in respect of this matter. I appreciate that the snow hit during the Christmas period when it is difficult to ensure that action is taken. I am disappointed that the initial proposal relating to this matter was that a meeting of the emergency response co-ordination committee should take place on 31 December. People in the north-west region, including those in counties Sligo, Leitrim and elsewhere, had been suffering for almost two weeks by that time. These people are still being badly affected.

It is disappointing that a national emergency can only be declared when the east coast is threatened with four to six inches of snow. That amount of snow fell in the north west on 19 December and people have been suffering ever since. The entire country was not affected on that date, as members will be aware from television reports, etc. I am of the view that a system or structure should be put in place to ensure that in adverse weather conditions, such as those recently experienced, people should at least have access to water and the roads should be kept clear. I accept that emphasis must be placed on keeping major roads clear in order that individuals might travel to work. However, during the recent cold snap people living in estates of 80 or 90 houses who lost their water supplies could not drive out of those estates to obtain water because the roads were not clear. When council workers did arrive to assist the people to whom I refer, those driving the trucks were afraid to enter such estates. That is frightening for many people.

If there is ever a repeat of recent events — I am sure there will be such a repeat — there should be a person in each county which public representatives can contact to try to obtain assistance for people from the emergency response co-ordination committee or some other agency or body. A back up system must be put in place so that people can deal with the issues that arise as a result of adverse weather conditions.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I am conscious of the fact that our providing details of the work we have done over the years or in respect of the structures that have been put in place will not provide consolation to those who have suffered misery, distress, trauma, injury or loss as a result of the flooding that occurred before Christmas and the recent bad weather. I take the Senator's point that lessons must be learned.

I am in a position to state, as a result of my contacts with local authorities, that local representatives played a significant role in bringing matters to the attention of county and city managers who could then organise assistance, etc. I am aware of a number of particularly difficult situations that were resolved as a result of this type of intervention. Public representatives were central to bringing about such resolutions. During the flooding crisis, those representatives acted as a conduit for disseminating information to members of the public. In that context, reference was made to public information announcements. There are many lessons which can be learned. I want to emphasise, however, that it would be neither appropriate or right that we in Dublin should be trying to use a long spanner to fix something in Sligo. Sligo people need to establish their priorities and decide what the big issues are which need to be resolved. That is the way the system is geared. Our job is at a level above that.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I shall be brief. I shall mention one or two matters in relation to the flooding and move on to more recent events. There was not that much flooding in Kildare, but nonetheless it was very severe. Some of this was caused by the Liffey, as I mentioned earlier, and the way in which it is managed. We need to examine carefully how the Liffey is managed, because while it is flooding in Clane, it then starts to move down to the Strawberry Beds in Dublin, so there is a whole ripple effect.

Perhaps I can ask Mr. Dowling about The Waterways in Sallins. It was flooded very badly, mainly because of blocked drains and outlets. It would not have been flooded at all if proper maintenance had been done before the event. In a recent television comment, the Minister made reference to The Waterways and said the name indicated the development had been built on a flood plain. I have known this area for many years and it was not built on a flood plain, but rather on what was formerly a pitch and putt course, in a strategic location close to the railway station. It got its name from the Grand Canal which runs through the village and the promotional literature when the development was being sold highlighted the canal as a very special amenity, which it is. Comments such as that are very severe on the people now living in those houses, if they want to sell a house in the Waterways since the Minister has indicated it was built on a flood plain. The position needs to be clarified in the public arena about this particular estate. I appeal to the officials and indeed, the Minister, to clearly state that this enormous estate which contains all the infrastructure needed for a proper development, is not built on a flood plain.

As regards the Clane flooding, this was caused by water back-filling from the Liffey, not by water coming down from the hills or streams. As regards building on flood plains, the Department now has a policy to ensure this will not happen in the future. However, how can we identify flood plains? Do we go back to the old ordnance survey maps and take them as the norm or have surveys been done to establish where the flood plains are now, because streams have been diverted and watercourses changed? Flood plains, which were effective many years ago, will not be effective today and it is important to highlight the fact that all drains must be kept clear and managed appropriately.

I do not know whether it was Mr. Hogan or Mr. Dowling who mentioned the information available on all the websites of the relevant Departments. However, many people do not access information in that manner. I would suggest that in emergencies such as this in the future there should, perhaps, be a rolling scroll on say, the 9 o'clock or 6 o'clock news. In addition, on the Department's website there should be a rolling scroll to show people how they might access information in an easy and clear manner. I am not overly computer literate and I found it difficult to access that type of information in the Department's website. Perhaps we might have something easier, although not necessarily big advertisements in newspapers.

The situation is ongoing and in this sense everything is local. I want to compliment, in particular, the role played by Kildare County Council as a lead agency in both emergencies. I compliment its PRO and the road safety people on the way in which they handled the crises. In particular, I compliment the local radio station because it played a major part. If I wanted information on flooding or on the roads, I listened to the radio, rather than accessing the Department's website. It provided a great service to the people, as did the rural transport services. While some months ago we were talking about cutting back on rural transport, the service it provided in this emergency was without equal.

A minor detail that is not, perhaps, worthy of national comment concerns gritting. A wonderful job was done on the motorways and the national roads. However, the people who live in the cul-de-sacs and on side roads need a service too. A local councillor last year in Kildare allocated €25,000 in discretionary grant funding to provide a small salt-filled gritter which could be hitched on to a tractor or a small lorry or large car, to grit the country roads. This proved to be very effective on roads not covered by the larger gritting initiatives. It would not be costly for local authorities to provide two or three of these for the people living in rural areas.

In addition, I believe we must be self-critical in order to see how we may do better. In the overall scheme of things everything worked reasonably well but it is important that we reassess how we dealt with each of these emergencies. I compliment Mr. Hogan and the emergency response committee on the way they handled the situation. The establishment of the committee gave people a degree of confidence, at least to the effect that something was being done. When people can be confident something is being done, they are more at ease and can see an end in sight for a particular emergency, and I thank him for that.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I do not want to claim I am the oldest in the House, but I remember 1947 when the snow lasted from January to March. I was the child of a farming family, looking out the back window of the house. There was a graveyard close by which priests and people were finding difficult to access for burial purposes. The world has moved on, we are now more sophisticated, society is different and the demands are greater. We have gone from the ass and cart into a modern age.

We had no flooding in Mallow on this occasion, because the flood plan worked very well. That can be taken off the list for the time being, at any rate. In Fermoy, however, we had difficulty. The flood work is going ahead but the southern part of the town is not being addressed. I would predict that Fermoy will be flooded by 6 o'clock this evening or by tomorrow morning, based on today's weather there. The Department's framework document makes suggestions on all sorts of things. Where mistakes have been made, will these be rectified or will they be taken into account as regards future planning, for example, building on flood plains? My colleague, Deputy Fitzpatrick, referred to flood plains, and they are still around, regardless of what the ordnance surveys say. If there is building on a flood plain the water is shifted onto another site, which then becomes flooded. Flood plains have all been built on because they were cheap sites, and therefore the real problem lies with the planning authorities.

I know of badly built and poorly finished housing estates, where no standards have applied. The people living in them have ceilings falling down on top of them because of the waterflows overhead, which were not properly catered for. Such situations should not arise. I have seen this in Mallow and other towns within my constituency. It is shocking and people have no water.

Although I normally support local authorities, I have to be somewhat critical because in many estates in my area which have not been taken over, the council has refused to make water available to the people concerned. I am mindful of a particular site in River Valley, Mallow, where they were refused water by the local authority. Mr. Hogan's is an emergency operation. Water is essential to life. If one is on hunger strike, one gets water, so that matter should be addressed and there should be no question of priorities. Everyone should be entitled to access the water supply in a town, irrespective of whether the house is under the aegis of the local authority or has not yet been taken over. Such situations create problems and frustration in people right across the community. The Department should have something in its programme to address that issue.

I drive to Dublin three or four times per week and I travel through the Chairman's constituency. I hit the Suir in Cahir, the Nore in Durrow and the Barrow in Monasterevin. In my 30 years as a Dáil Deputy, those rivers have swollen more and more every year. There must be a change taking place in the atmosphere, because there is more water in those rivers. The Barrow was always classed as a shallow river, but in recent years horrendous flooding has occurred at harvest time. Something is taking place in the atmosphere or in the hills and valleys of our country, and this must be addressed. The Blackwater is behind me in Fermoy, so I do not pass that river.

Before the State was founded, there was one river agency in Ireland. There are several agencies today. The local authorities, the OPW, the fisheries boards and the ESB all have responsibility for rivers. Why do we not have one agency to deal with rivers? This recommendation should be made, because somebody must be responsible for the state of our rivers. If we look at all our major rivers, there is no management and nobody does anything about it. I gather that there is a river agency in the UK, so we should have something similar. The sole responsibility should not be with the ESB, because that organisation has a different agenda to the ordinary citizen of our society and the ordinary people in local authorities. Somebody should be in charge, and I hope that this is addressed in some form.

Our rivers are in an horrific state. The banks of the rivers are destroyed compared with 30 or 40 years ago. There is no management and nobody is doing anything about them. This is causing flooding as well, because the banks of the rivers are silted up. Overgrown trees are falling into rivers and holding back water, causing flooding and blocking bridges. We have cases where bridges have been blocked and water has overflowed. Many areas could be tidied up and the delegation's plan could work. I welcome the plan and I believe Mr. Dowling is capable of doing the job, even though he might not have the status of a Secretary General. He might get that some day.

It is very hard for people living in rural areas who have seen no gritting of their roads, whether they are regional or county roads. County roads have been very dangerous in the last ten days. I was getting phone calls on my way to Dublin today from people who were travelling on county roads, because water is falling on those roads but the ice is still there. It is a credit to society that there has been no loss of life. We had a few car accidents with loss of life due to the frost, but in comparison with other countries, we have done well.

I wish Mr. Dowling well and I have no doubt he will be here in the future to answer further questions on his plan.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I thank Mr. Hogan and Mr. Dowling for staying with us. Deputy Brady made reference earlier to 1982, but it is extraordinary, given the growth of our interurban road network, that Ireland ground to a halt for two weeks. If we did not have the M50, the M7 or the arteries in Cork, it would have been as bad as it was in 1982. People gave out about Michael O'Leary back then, but have we learned anything at all about how to be prepared for a major emergency?

I wish to go back to the flooding in Cork. I want to use phrases that were thrown at us today, such as "might result in" or "looks like we might have to". Why was an emergency not declared in Cork? What constitutes a national emergency? Who makes that decision? If there was not a national emergency in Cork over the past two weeks, then I do not know what it was. The Middle Parish — Grattan Street, Patrick Hanley Buildings, Grenville Place and the Mardyke — was flooded severely. There is a link between the ESB and the management of the Inniscarra dam, as there is in Ardnacrusha. Is Mr. Hogan happy with the relationship between the ESB and the city and county councils in Cork? We need to see responsibility here. The Chairman set the tone in his opening remarks. The buck has to stop somewhere. I am not suggesting that it stops with the ESB, but would Mr. Hogan support the need for an independent investigation into the flooding of Cork city? His plan refers to preparedness and communication. There was a major communication deficit in Cork from the Thursday evening through to the early hours of Friday morning, where but for the grace of God, people were not killed. This does not add up.

Has every local authority submitted an emergency plan to the Department? If so, is Mr. Dowling satisfied that every plan is workable and complies with the framework document? He mentioned in his speech that he has asked local authorities to complete a questionnaire that would provide the data for the necessary comprehensive picture. Can he talk to us about that in greater detail?

The city manager in Cork prepared a report for Cork City Council on 7 December. He listed a number of recommendations on the final page of the report that have a resonance for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The first recommendation requires approval from the Department for funding to enable the proposed upgrading of the Lee Road waterworks to proceed. It is extraordinary in modern Ireland that the city of Cork had no access to running water for two to three weeks. Another recommendation was to link the mains pipe on the Wilton Road roundabout to the Lee Road waterworks, which again requires funding from the Department. Total funding for both these schemes comes to about €21 million. Where are we at in respect of the provision of assistance to the two councils for this link? The quay walls in Cork have not been reinforced in years. The city council has made several requests to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, but it has not received any monetary assistance yet.

If we were to use the yardstick of the framework document, is it fair to say that we failed the people of Ireland in our response to the current crisis? This includes headings such as a declaration of emergency, mobilisation of resources, and the command and control of a co-ordinated response.

I appreciate where Mr. Hogan is coming from and I have no problem with those present. However, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, went AWOL — he went missing, showing a lack of leadership at a political level. With regard to the information management system and protecting exposed populations, have we not let down the people? Deputy Scanlon referred to Sligo. I had somebody staying in my house in Cork for the past week who could not get to west Cork. Despite what Deputy Brady said, people in modern Ireland were not able to get from point A to point B.

Have we lost our sense of preventative maintenance at local authority level through cutting funding due to the budgetary situation? We do not seem ready to respond. If one considers Chicago or Boston, which are used to dealing with winter weather conditions, they are way ahead of us. We have not learned at all. I mean this with the best of intentions to the gentlemen present. We have learned nothing from anywhere else. How can they explain to me, as a simple person, that Ireland ground to a halt for two weeks? It should not have.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I will begin with that point, the national primary roads. The national primary roads have been prioritised, which has been the position for quite a number of years, as they carry an estimated 70% of the traffic on the roads and carry the foods, fuels and the rest of the goods transported. The suggestion that the national primary roads have been closed with one or two little exceptions does not tally with my reports or with media reports. I pay tribute to the local authority staff who worked at the front line and who I have been in contact with. They have been working since 17 or 18 December to keep those roads open in difficult circumstances, getting up at 3 a.m., 4 a.m. and 5 a.m. to go out to grit roads several times a day. It needs to be stated that they have had an impact.

From what we have learned, the difference from 1982 is that we have 200 gritters and, when the snow came, we had snow ploughs to put on the front of those gritters. The equipment is now there. The ten-day salt stocks were in place. In common with other countries, salt stocks ran down but that is a universal problem. One of the jobs of my committee was to manage the salt supply, which we were able to do with the NRA and the local authorities, and with the help of several other arms of Government which were brought to bear. I begin from the perspective of, I regret to say, disagreeing with the Senator because the national primary roads were, by and large, kept open.

I am not talking about the difficulties people suffered for the past three or four weeks in rural areas and urban areas, in particular pedestrians, which I recognise. However, the objective that was set was a long-set objective. I have looked at the situation in Boston and elsewhere and believe there are many differences. One can go back to 1982, 1963 or the previous periods, but the cities referred to by the Senator cope with snow every year — they are in a different league. We have set our objectives and, by and large, achieved them, although I await a review process to establish that those objectives have been met.

When one passes comment on services, one has to say what one is measuring them against, and what standard we have asked them to achieve. One cannot change the rules, tell them to do something and then say we want them to achieve something higher. I say this as a committed and passionate public servant, leading and working with the people I have worked with on this project and on various projects over several years. The people who are involved in the world I work in are anxious to do the right thing.

There are lessons to be learned. The Deputy referred to local public radio and public information. I fully take that point. I also fully take the points about the deficit of public information, without reference to any particular area. Those were lessons to be learned. As we were managing all the issues, those issues were being managed.

Deputy O'Flynn referred to water supply. Again, I take the point with regard to the horrendous difficulties this poses for people and families. Unfortunately, we are back in the same situation again on a much more extensive scale. In Cork, 18,000 families were without water. To set the record straight, my information is that water was restored within seven days to the last houses and was not out for two or three weeks. Again, full credit is due to the people in Cork city.

I was asked about funding for protection works at Lee Road. I understand a request was made and this has been sanctioned, to the best of my knowledge.

With regard to whether I am satisfied on various issues, we had the OPW, the local authorities, the ESB, Met Éireann and a variety of other agencies working with us at national level. I am probably omitting some agencies. There was fantastic co-operation and collaboration between the people involved. We have all seen how the future should look in terms of converting Met Éireann's forecasts of rainfall levels into what that will mean in a particular river catchment. I would like to think that is one of the lessons we have seen in action at the committee we were running, and that this was able to be applied. This is where the OPW study applies, namely, with regard to how we join up the various systems in place. While there may be systems in place, they may not be joined together well, which I fully accept. I hope those are the lessons my review will bring forward.

I have probably missed some of the Senator's points, and I apologise for that.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Has each local authority submitted plans?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I can confirm that. My section has received the major emergency plan of each local authority as required by the framework.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Does Mr. Hogan support an independent investigation into what happened in Cork with the ESB, the councils and so on?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, I have already spoken about what I intend to do. It is not for me to discuss investigations.

Chairman

That is a policy issue.

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is a policy issue and not for me.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I made the point that there should be no exemption on any person with regard to water supply, whether for public or private estates. This is a point I raised in regard to Mallow.

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is not exempt, and I emphasise the point——

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Water is a very important part of life.

Mr. Seán Hogan

Absolutely. However, let us bear in mind the circumstances we are talking about here, namely, what happened in terms of rainfall and in terms of an extended period of severe cold weather — extreme cold weather for the past week in particular. There are consequences of that which I cannot ameliorate. What I have to do is work with the people to make sure they are ameliorated as best they can be.

We have seen the situation in Cork. One of the joined-up parts of our emergency management was the drinking water incident response schemes. Those were kicking in to varying degrees around the country, although I take the point the Deputy makes about the difficulties of lorries going into estates. There are always issues around water supply.

While I have not been involved in my committee's meeting today, I emphasise to the committee that water conservation is a critical issue at present. It looked as if very significant elements of population would be without water yesterday, and I am not sure what the position is today. This is because of frost that has occurred. It is not because of something I, my committee or the local authorities did but because of frost and the fact that temperatures dropped to well below zero. Unfortunately, I regret to say, the view was that the most severe damage will be done when the thaw sets in. While someone's water may have been cut off when their inlet pipe froze, it will probably be found that such pipes will burst or a joint will be pulled when the thaw sets in. That is the situation we are in.

The demand for water in the past week has been 25% higher than the previous greatest ever recorded demand in the Dublin city area, and a similar situation has been reported right across the country as well. Demand is up hugely. This may indicate that some people have been leaving taps running, which will cause problems for everybody. If people are leaving taps running, their neighbours will be without water.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

On that point, I have just received a text stating that most areas of south Dublin have lost their water and it will apparently not be back until 4 a.m. That is obviously a very difficult situation. I got that text because I am a politician but it will be difficult to get that information out to people and many will be stuck for water, including older people. There is an issue in this regard. There must be a better system to communicate the actions being taken and get the message out to people. The other side of it is education for individuals and local communities about how to deal with this type of crisis.

Regarding Senator Buttimer's point, I heard on the radio that somewhere in Canada ground to a halt in October because snow at that time of year was unexpected. This type of weather is not unheard of, but it is a question of how quickly we can get our act together. The emergency response committee did not meet soon enough about the freeze. I drove back from Cork on 1 January, having visited someone I know there, and it was then that the large snowfall started. However, the committee does not seem to have met until 6 January and the Cabinet, as far as I can remember, did not make an appearance until 7 January. Does the Cabinet decide whether the committee will meet? Mr. Hogan might have answered my question already. Leadership is a political concept and relates to what Ministers do and where they are. This is the bottom line.

The booklet provided to the joint committee refers to the determination of the lead agency, specifically that there should be an early decision on which agency should take the lead. Ideally, this should be a Department. In rare circumstances, however, local authorities should take the lead by default. For example, the report on the floods states that local authorities took the lead agency role. This is not good enough. Local authorities must do the work, but they cannot lead where circumstances cross county boundaries or where they do not have the capacity. They are down on funding and staff. South Dublin County Council in my area ordered enough grit for 24 days because that was as much as it could store. One could not say that the council was totally responsible for its own gritting. The issue is greater than any individual local authority.

I received a report from South Dublin County Council stating it was in daily contact with the Garda, HSE, Dublin Bus, Civil Defence and its neighbouring authorities, but the report did not mention the emergency response co-ordination committee. Is there co-ordination and does it entail ringing a local authority and asking how things are going that day?

Mr. Seán Hogan

There is co-ordination on two levels. From my experience of working with the committee, one of the most significant developments has been the bringing together of central government agencies and local authorities. This is done in two ways, the first being daily reports on transport issues via the Department of Transport and the second being representation of city and county managers on our committee. The managers appear at our committee supported by information, bring their perspective to the issues and then leave with decisions and information. I cannot overemphasise the support we have received. We have tried to lead, but we could be answering a different set of questions on why there is no framework if not for local authorities grasping this framework in recent years. We are examining how to make our framework work better. The freeze was our second great test, the first being the flooding. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and South Dublin County Councils will not have engaged in our processes because people are feeling their way into them.

I wish to emphasise the fact that, while my role may extend to "leadership" in this regard, I have worked with colleagues from the Garda Síochána, HSE, local authorities, Defence Forces and a considerable range of agencies working with the Department to move these matters forward. We want to do and be in a position to do the right thing for the public. That is what we are here for. This is a question of delivery and the local government system, despite its constraints, has stepped into the lead agency role well in those cases with which I have dealt. This situation reflects local authorities' position on interfacing directly with people, which is the way in which the crisis should be managed.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

There should be a national leader. The lead agency should not be a county council. The booklet stated that local authorities would lead by default in rare instances. The policy should not be to make them the lead agency.

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, it must be the case. The principle is that a response to an emergency should be managed locally.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

Managed but not led locally. The lead agency should be a national one. Flooding is not a local issue, as it occurs in many localities simultaneously. The same situation pertains with snow.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I must debate the approach to managing situations with the Deputy.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

The booklet contains the policy. On page 58, it states: "In these situations, which should be rare, the Local Authority will be the 'default' lead agency."

Mr. Seán Hogan

That is in appendix 7.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I apologise. It is on page 56 and states:

The second is a default arrangement, where the categorisations in the Table do not seem to apply and the lead agency is not obvious. In these situations, which should be rare, the Local Authority will be the 'default' lead agency.

Mr. Seán Hogan

That is because appendix 7 sets out a table detailing situations in which the Garda, HSE and local authorities are the lead agencies.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

Would it not be a Department? Snow is not a local issue.

Mr. Seán Hogan

No. There are lead Departments, but let us separate the two areas. First, co-ordination of the local response. Second, the national level, where I come in and where the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is the lead Department. I have been mandated to exercise that lead departmental role in a certain way, namely, through the national emergency response co-ordination committee. This approach to doing the job is not universal, but it is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government's.

Chairman

How did the emergency response co-ordination committee come together to deal with a national emergency if no one had declared an emergency, even at local level? Reverting to the Cork issue, is there a format that the 52 designated officers must adhere to when declaring emergencies, such as their names, ranks and services and the types of incident? If no one sees fit to declare an emergency at local level, is Mr. Hogan in a position to sign the form as a designated officer?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, I am not in a position to declare a major emergency in the way set out in the document. To do so, one must be an officer of the local authority, the Garda Síochána or the HSE, which relates to the matter of a local response.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I want to direct the Chairman to the graph on page 57 of the document provided. It outlines three tiers — the coal face is at the bottom, the middle section shows local co-ordination centres, namely, local authorities, the Garda, HSE and others working as a co-ordinating committee, and the top shows the NECC lead Department. A line of communication crosses the three tiers. In terms of the Cork situation and the recent snow, what occurred in this respect? Local authorities deal with difficult situations all the time, such as a major oil spillage on a road. It would not be a major emergency, but it would still be a local emergency. Something determines whether a scenario is more than a local emergency and of national consequence. Reverting to an earlier question, are those involved in this structure required to declare an emergency?

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is their judgment. That would occur on-site. For example, the first fire brigade officer or garda who rolls up to a bus crash and decides that it cannot be dealt with locally because it is a greater emergency than "normal" could declare a major emergency by, for instance, putting a message on radio.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

That kicks this structure into place.

Mr. Seán Hogan

The upper structure.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

What kicks the rest of the structure into place? We are being told that someone is at the end of a telephone 24 hours per day, seven days per week expecting a call. Who is he or she? Is that person a member of Mr. Hogan's committee? Where is he or she listed in this graph?

Mr. Seán Hogan

We have a system in place with one of the fire service co-ordination centres, whereby when a declaration is made at the lower level, as part of the automatic notification the centre will receive a call saying a major emergency has been declared in County Cork. They will get some details and they will contact us in the Department.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

According to the document, as soon as something of significance happens this structure comes into play. Is it a requirement of one structure to inform another structure that there is an emergency?

Mr. Seán Hogan

I refer members to the relevant section.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Is that in the appendices?

Mr. Seán Hogan

It is in the main document, on page 63.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

This concerns linking with national co-ordination.

Mr. Seán Hogan

There are more than the 121 words that Deputy Hogan was worried about earlier. This provides that when a major emergency is declared, the Garda division will notify the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, HSE officials will notify the Department of Health and Children and the local authority will notify the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

If more than one of these occurred on a similar theme, this will determine that a national emergency is taking place.

Mr. Seán Hogan

It could be or it could be at a regional level. These have not been determined or set down.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Is there such a thing as a declaration of a national emergency or a national disaster?

Mr. Seán Hogan

There is no framework for declaring national emergencies in the same way as there is for declaring major emergencies.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

If six or seven local authorities are snowed under, there is a procedure in place to communicate up the line that we are in a state of major emergency. There is no definition of a national emergency.

Chairman

There is no crisis.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

In all of this, there is no such thing as a national emergency.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I am sure there is but I do not have a definition of it.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

There is no mechanism to state that Ireland is in a state of national emergency.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I am trying to be as helpful, open and straightforward as I can be in respect of the information I am providing to the committee. My responsibility has extended and my work for two or three years concerned major emergencies. My work at the moment concerns the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I am trying to explain how we discharge our responsibility.

Chairman

Was the foot and mouth disease outbreak a national emergency or a major emergency?

Mr. Seán Hogan

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was the lead Department in that scenario.

Chairman

Was that dealt with under this document as a major emergency?

Mr. Seán Hogan

No, but the framework document can be used if there is need for local co-ordination. A serious situation arose when foot and mouth disease broke out in Louth. The framework document enables the Garda Síochána, the health services and the local authorities, as well as anyone else who needs to be involved, to work locally. The framework document provides for linking with national emergency plans, such as foot and mouth disease and the flu pandemic. I appreciate that it is difficult for members to grasp this when those of us who have been working on it for several years make certain assumptions about it. My apologies if I have not made myself clear.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I wish to clarify one point about the contact that was fed up to the committee with regard to the recent flooding in Cork. What time was contact made, stating that there was an impending or possible emergency in Cork?

Mr. Seán Hogan

This was not made to my committee; it was made to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government staff. I do not know the exact time, it was some stage in the afternoon.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Was it on Thursday or Friday?

Mr. Seán Hogan

Thursday. The main flood happened on Thursday evening. A call was received at some stage on Thursday. I did not take the call but I was made aware of the call from Cork.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

We are unsure of whether there were further telephone calls up the line to the committee. At 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the morning a substantial amount of water came down the River Lee. We are not sure that any risk assessment was undertaken to indicate the consequences of such a volume of water moving into the river. People were in their beds, leaving town after a night out or making their way across town. No one could quantify the level of emergency. This is the key point. Emergency plans are only as good as the risk assessment undertaken. If risk assessment was not made of the implications of moving a certain volume of water down the River Lee, one has no idea about the extent of the emergency.

Mr. Seán Hogan

I agree entirely. One of the benefits of the systems approach we have adopted and promulgated is that risk assessment was done as part of the major emergency process, probably in late 2007. The systems process now requires us to start again, not just in the Cork area but across the entire country. We will all look slightly differently at where flooding might come from, based on the experience of what has happened. That is the benefit and beauty of the systems approach. I speak passionately about it because it is internationally recognised as the way to approach these matters. This is not just an emergency plan that is put in the corner, waiting for something to happen. The system goes on. One undertakes risk assessment once again. We all learned about flooding, the ESB and we all know many facts that we did not know in the original risk assessment two years ago. We can incorporate this into the next round, which is the beauty of the systems approach, in which one is constantly learning. The review is a fundamental part of the systems approach. One learns from what is done and the cycle starts again.

Chairman

From a local government point of view, can the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government ascertain how much money is spent on river maintenance and drainage? Most members understand at local level the problems with rivers. We accept that there is more water hitting the rivers quickly as a result of over 20 years of improved agriculture, with greater land drainage. The water from the land gets into rivers and streams quicker than it used to because of afforestation, not to mention building. Agriculture and forestry, as well as building, have contributed to getting water into rivers quicker.

In every local authority, everyone knows that the maintenance, clearing and draining of rivers has been utterly neglected for a generation. The rivers are not capable of taking a fraction of the volume of water they were capable of taking 20 years ago. This is due to lack of drainage and maintenance and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has a role in this. When funding is made available to do something, other issues arise. Because the rivers have not been cleaned, wildlife and vegetation has started to grow in the river where it never was before. Now, one cannot touch what one has allowed to establish a habitat over previous years. One cannot go to the bias of the river or the bank of the river and one can only clean one side of the river this year and the other next year. I do not have any disregard for the habitats in the river systems but the lack of drainage has been a systemic weakness in local authorities. The work was not done over the years, not to mind the abolition of some of the joint drainage boards a few years ago. Can an observation or comment be made on this? We know what we are spending on roads. I am not talking about the OPW flooding relief. I refer to what goes into drainage. I am told that money for drainage of streams that cause flooding in local towns comes out of the roads budget in most local authorities.

Mr. Des Dowling

I have spoken with the committee on a number of occasions about local government funding issues, although I cannot answer with regard to funding and grant aid from the Department of Transport. In the normal course of events, we do not retain details on what local authorities spend on drainage but, as the committee knows, we provide general support in terms of allocations and the local government fund. That money is not specific to particular usages; it is up to the local authority to determine spending. Some of it could well be used for that purpose. However, we do not have reason to scrutinise the individual estimates in that way. It is not information that the Minister is obliged to retain. We can certainly look into it and determine whether we can compile some information for the committee.

Chairman

The Department probably does not have that information and I do not see how it would get it.

Mr. Des Dowling

No; we do not have such detailed information as a matter of routine.

Chairman

The point I am making is that the accounting system is standard across all local authorities, or most of them. With regard to budget headings, is there a figure for water management? It would be worthwhile because flooding and management of rivers is now such an important issue. It should be a separate budget line in the annual estimates of local authorities.

Mr. Des Dowling

This will vary from one authority to another depending on how important the issue is. Some authorities have had to give attention to this in recent years but for others it is not a consideration.

Chairman

Is there a standard format for the estimates?

Mr. Des Dowling

No. Members of the committee are probably as familiar with this as we are. There is not a single budget line in each authority for water management because, as the Chairman said, some of this work, such as dealing with culverts, is done through the roads budget.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Will local authorities be compensated for the extra costs they have incurred in this regard?

Chairman

Will there be a Supplementary Estimate next October?

Mr. Des Dowling

No, but I thank Deputy Scanlon for drawing attention to some aspects of what happened in his area. We take it seriously and such comments are welcome. Supplementary funding was given to those authorities which suffered most acutely from the flooding, but that came at the end of the year when local authorities found themselves in extreme difficulty. We are only in January now and we have made allocations which are reasonable in view of the tight budgetary constraints. We do not expect local authorities to seek supplementary funding in January as there is much of the year to get through yet.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I have one more question for Mr. Dowling, whose answer he may communicate to the committee later. I made a comment earlier about The Waterways in Sallins. A statement was made by the Minister on television which has the potential to devalue properties in the area substantially and many people are under stress due to this. Most of them are in negative equity at the moment and if his comments stood up, it would be serious for them.

Chairman

I will assist the Deputy. He has raised the matter and the committee will write to the Minister in this regard. We will try to obtain a transcript of the Minister's comments. I saw the broadcast myself and I remember a certain phrase he used about the name of the estate, but I did not think of the consequences for the estate. We will obtain a transcript and ask the Minister to clarify his comments. We will write to the Minister rather than ask Mr. Dowling.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I am much obliged.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for spending such a long time here this afternoon. Our next meeting is a discussion with the Irish Waste Management Association.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.05 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 January 2010.