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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jan 2010

Waste Management: Discussion with Irish Waste Management Association.

We resume in public session to deal with No. 5 on our agenda, waste management policy. Members will recall the joint committee received a request from the Irish Waste Management Association, when it forwarded to us a copy of its report entitled, Dublin Region Thermal Treatment Needs Assessment, to meet with us to discuss waste management policy. I am pleased to welcome officials from the Irish Waste Management Association, including Mr. Brendan Keane, spokesperson, Mr. Jerry Dempsey, managing director commercial services, Greenstar, Mr. John Dunne, strategic director, Panda, Mr. Conor Walsh, technical director, SLR Consulting, and Mr. Gavin Lawlor, Tom Philips & Associates. I thank all witnesses for appearing before us here today. The format of the meeting will be a brief presentation from the delegation on its findings followed by a question and answer session.

Before Mr. Keane makes the presentation I want to draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but that this same privilege does not apply to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or an official outside the Houses by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now invite Mr. Keane to make his presentation.

Mr. Brendan Keane

I would like initially to apologise on behalf of our chairman, Mr. Jim Kells, who is unable to attend today. I will brief the joint committee on the Irish Waste Management Association's position in regard to the direction of the waste campaign, a subsidiary item within which is the Poolbeg incinerator, an aspect which not alone affects Dublin, but waste management throughout the country.

I thank the joint committee for giving the association the opportunity to appear before it. The Irish Waste Management Association, IWMA, is a trade association representing the private waste management industry in Ireland. We have 26 members representing approximately 95% of the private waste management sector in Ireland and are affiliated to the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, and the European Federation of Waste Management and Environmental Services, FEAD, which is a key element in Europe.

While the IWMA is not opposed to incineration in our presentation we will be outlining our grave concerns with regard to the proposed size of the incinerator at Poolbeg, which we believe is far too large, the impact this oversized facility will have on our sector, jobs and recycling levels, the liability that Dublin householders and taxpayers in general will be exposed to, and the extraordinary level of public moneys that have been spent on this project which, in our view, have been largely wasted. Following our presentation we will be delighted to take any questions from members.

Good environmental practice and business sense dictate that a diversity of technologies should be utilised when dealing with waste that is generated by households and commercial enterprises anywhere in the country. We believe that private waste operators, working in partnership with local authorities nationwide, have made and will continue to make a substantial contribution to waste management in all parts of the country.

Ireland has seen a dramatic rise in waste recovery rates during the ten years to 2008, the period for which the most recent data is available. During this time, household waste recovery has grown from 3% to 28% and commercial waste recovery has grown from an estimated 18% to approximately 50%. These dramatic improvements have coincided with an increased involvement by the private waste sector in providing sustainable and cost effective waste management solutions. Private waste operators have invested in new and innovative technologies that have driven and delivered on increased recycling rates and have offered a better, more efficient and more cost-effective service to the consumer. Some 12% of households in Dublin have in the past two years switched to private waste collectors and 90% of commercial waste producers utilise private waste contractors. Countrywide, 55% of domestic waste is collected by private operators. Most of the country's commercial waste is collected by private waste operators.

I would like to highlight a situation which arose in the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown local authority area in 2007. When private waste operators entered the waste management market in this area, two IWMA members offered a waste collection and management service to householders that was up to 24% to 25% cheaper than the incumbent local authority. Given our members were charging VAT, which was not being charged by the local authority, we were in real terms almost 40% cheaper. We employed better and more environmentally friendly technology, offered better recycling of an expanded list of materials including glass and WEEE previously catered for within the green bin, and we offered increased recycling collection frequency resulting in the achievement of higher recycling rates. As reported in The Irish Times on 3 October 2008, Mr. Owen Keegan, county manager of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown local authority stated in a letter to councillors that private sector operators offered a significantly better service at lower cost to households than the authority. In short, this was a win-win case for householders and for the environment. Similar examples can be found in many other locations across Ireland. That was also backed up by Mr. Justice McKechnie’s ruling in the High Court.

The proposed Poolbeg incinerator threatens the positive consumer and environmental developments that Dublin has witnessed in achieving waste management goals. It also will impact on infrastructure throughout the country as it tries to fill its massive capacity. The four Dublin local authorities, led by Dublin City Council, propose to construct an incinerator at Poolbeg which will have a capacity to burn 600,000 tonnes of waste per annum. In late 2009, the IWMA commissioned an independent environmental consultancy, SLR Consulting, to undertake an independent review of the level of waste that would be available for the Poolbeg incinerator assuming realistic growth rates and recycling rates. The findings of this research — it is available on the web — show that from this date until 2037 the level of waste available tor incineration at the facility at Poolbeg will never exceed 300,000 tonnes per annum, based on EU established growth criteria.

The incinerator proposed for Poolbeg is, therefore, grossly oversized relative to the available waste market. The IWMA cannot understand why the size of the incinerator has increased to a 600,000 tonne capacity when the initial tender called for by Dublin City Council was for a facility with a maximum size of 400,000 tonnes. Building an incinerator with an excess capacity of more than 300,000 tonnes will have a significant negative effect on waste management in the Dublin region and further afield.

The facility will hurt recycling rates. Once commissioned, the oversized incinerator will only perform one function. Every day for 25 years it will burn waste, and fuel must be found to feed the facility. To operate at capacity this incinerator must suck up waste that private operators are currently recycling, and also future material that can be readily recycled using alternative technologies that is currently found in the black bin from across the Dublin region and other parts of the country. This will have a negative environmental impact and reduce the positive gains already achieved. I suspect it may give rise to us missing the recycling level targets set by the EU.

In recent years private waste operators invested in a range of new technologies to manage waste. Our members invested more than €500 million in the past ten years developing facilities here. These options include mechanical and biological treatment and more efficient and effective recycling. The proposed incinerator is so oversized — relative to the available waste market — that it will dominate the market, driving other operators out of business and making other technologies obsolete. This would be a significant backward step in terms of reuse and recycling which are higher order activities in the waste hierarchy above that of incineration.

As part of their investment in new technologies for waste management, waste operators now employ thousands of people in collection, sorting and processing all types of waste. The Poolbeg incinerator will be so dominant that, if constructed at its proposed scale, it will wipe out alternatives to incineration, turning waste management operators into waste couriers who simply will collect and transport the unsorted material to Poolbeg. This will inevitably lead to job losses. We suspect 1,000 job losses directly, and probably another 1,000 outside of that — in total, 2,000 more jobs gone.

In common with most of the rest of the country, the waste market in Dublin is becoming competitive and this has benefitted consumers, the environment and employment. These benefits are threatened by an oversized Poolbeg incinerator.

In addition, the IWMA believes the taxpayer is at considerable risk from this project. Dublin City Council has entered into a contract whereby it has guaranteed to supply 320,000 tonnes of waste to the operators of the Poolbeg incinerator. If this level of waste is not reached then the local authority must pay compensation that, we understand, may be in the order of €80 to €100 per tonne. This has resulted in the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government estimating that the taxpayer may have to pay up to €18 million in penalties for every year the incinerator is in operation. This would amount to €450 million over the lifetime of the project and we consider this to be total madness.

This could be examined in more detail if Dublin City Council released in full the details of the contract it has entered into with Covanta and Dong Energy. However, to date the local authority has refused to do this, and will not even release the contract to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government which has responsibility for waste. A contract of such importance to the taxpayer should be open to scrutiny. What secret is being hidden by not releasing this contract and its details?

Based on its scale, this incinerator must draw waste from outside the Dublin region. The ongoing costs will be underwritten by the Exchequer and the taxpayer. However, the officials in Dublin City Council are only responsible for the Dublin metropolitan area, and yet the plant they are developing will have a national impact. Given the consequences this facility will have on a national level, it is astonishing that the contract continues to remain shrouded in secrecy under lock and key in Dublin City Council.

While these costs represent a huge risk for the taxpayer, the IWMA also believes the expenditure already committed to the development of the Poolbeg incinerator should be examined in more detail. The Dublin city manager recently stated that the local authority has spent €120 million in the development of the Poolbeg incinerator to date. This expenditure does not include plant equipment or building construction and at this stage the site is empty. The IWMA is astonished that Dublin City Council could have spent €120 million on what is effectively an empty site. As a point of reference, an IWMA member company is in the process of developing an incinerator which will be completed within the next two years and has cost the promoter the princely sum of €6 million to get to the same stage as Poolbeg for a similar facility, that is, 20 times less than the spend to date by Dublin City Council.

Of the €120 million expenditure thus far, €22 million has been spent on professional and consultancy fees on the project. It has been reported that one firm, RPS received a significant proportion of these fees. This is the same firm which was employed as consultant in the development of the Dublin waste management plan and the initial strategy identifying incineration for the Dublin region. This firm has also been put forward by Dublin City Council to justify the incinerator development in recent days even though it has a considerable financial interest in the Poolbeg incinerator proceeding. This is quite inappropriate on the part of the local authority which is responsible to the taxpayer, not its consultants. The IWMA therefore views the €120 million spend as an example of the cavalier and wanton waste of taxpayers' money by Dublin City Council. If the Poolbeg incinerator continues in its current form then further hundreds of millions of euros will be spent in the development of a facility which is not appropriate for our city and which will do untold damage to recycling in Dublin for generations.

The IWMA has lodged several complaints with the planning enforcement division of Dublin City Council as we believe the local authority has not complied with a number of planning conditions. These conditions were set by An Bord Pleanála and should be policed by Dublin City Council. We do not believe IWMA members would get away with this attitude.

The IWMA has also lodged a formal complaint with the European Commission as we believe the guarantee to provide a minimum of 320,000 tonnes of waste annually to the Poolbeg incinerator amounts to a State aid. We have requested that the European Commission examine this aspect of the agreement. In addition, we believe this State aid allows Dublin City Council, with Covanta and Dong Energy, to exploit the market at marginal cost driving competition out of the market before again increasing prices during the tenure of the contract to the detriment of consumers. As is obvious from other monopolised markets, one large player will eventually profiteer at the cost of the consumer.

It is worthwhile noting that Mr. Justice McKechnie found against Dublin City Council in a judgment delivered on 21 December. In this case, which involved an IWMA member company, Mr. Justice McKechnie found that Dublin City Council had abused its dominant position in the capital's waste market and based on his judgment, also said that the planned Poolbeg incinerator was "not free from uncertainty". I will quote from the uncensored, unapproved document I have here. It states that "in the course of the hearing a number of draft reports prepared by RPS and Dr. Francis O'Toole were handed up to the court, which contained comments written by the respondents indicating which parts of earlier drafts were acceptable to them, and either deleted or reworded those parts which would not have supported their position". He goes on to say that "such massaging of reports which were in their edited versions later released publically is a strong indicator to me of unacceptable influence in a process supposedly carried out in the public interest". We suspect this is simply the first tranche of massaging that has been done. What other massaging may have occurred in respect of getting to this point? That is a critical item for us.

Proceeding with this project in its current form entails serious, long-term, negative consequences for waste management, Dubliners and for taxpayers throughout this country for at least the next generation. Therefore, the IWMA urges that this committee examine this project in detail before any further moneys are squandered on a development which, simply put, is not fit for purpose.

I welcome the Irish Waste Management Association to this meeting. There has been a significant amount of media activity, including press launches, and various reports have been published in recent months regarding waste management generally and targeting the incinerator issue in Dublin in particular. This has been going on for a considerable period in the lead up to granting permission. The proposed incinerator has gone through a planning process that involved An Bord Pleanála and it was granted an EPA licence. What is Government policy on waste? Now that this project has gone through the process to the extent to which I have adverted, what can be done about it?

Mr. Brendan Keane

Policy on waste is defined on a regional basis. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is responsible for overall policy. However, local authorities, which are combined into ten regional areas, actually define policy in their area by developing a waste management plan and implementing it. A major problem for our industry has been that local authorities have operated as the bodies responsible for enforcement but they compete in the market place as well. There is this dual role that makes no sense. We have called for a segregation of duties for some time. In the case of Dublin, it has been brought to a head because we believe Dublin City Council made large funding benefits from operating the landfill site at Arthurstown for many years. It is aware landfill is on the way out and takes the view that it should hop straight from depending on one method, that is, landfill to going straight for incineration. Its view was that if the boys were going to build the plant for 300,000 tonnes, it would be the same price for 600,000 tonnes and that it could benefit on the upside on that and take back the marketplace in which it had lost position. That is where we are at present. I call on Mr. Dempsey to add some comments.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

It is late in the day in terms of what we might do at this stage and I understand this is the point Deputy Hogan makes. However, the facility is not yet built. The county has seen several crises following which there have been retrospective inquiries and we have tried to learn lessons from the past such that we can put them right in the future.

This has not happened yet. Some €120 million has been spent to date according to the Dublin city manager, but millions remain to be spent. This contract could cost millions for the Irish taxpayer in the future and we must question if this is appropriate now before pushing on. The people who can answer these questions include Dublin City Council, Covanta, Dong Energy and the consultants they have engaged in this project. We need them to come forward and indicate what is in this contract, what exactly has been underwritten by the taxpayer and what the participants seek to be underwritten by the Exchequer. They have signed us into it without explaining what it is. We have been through situations in which we must trust the experts and once again we are being asked to trust the experts and that what they know is right for this country and city and that, apparently, what they planned 14 years ago is still appropriate in the modern era. What we need is for them to come forward and indicate what they are asking us to sign into and if it is still appropriate. Let us do a cost benefit analysis now before we press on. Just because we have spent €120 million does not mean to say we should push on and spend a further €450 million before completion.

My problem is that policy has not changed in respect of waste. Notwithstanding the comments of the Minister, we have had the same policy since 2006. The Minister has taken an active interest in this matter which I understand because he is a Deputy for the constituency. However, am I correct in saying that Government waste management policy is the same today as it was in 2006?

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

That is a good question. What constitutes Government policy? Is it the programme for Government?

No, that does not constitute policy. What constitutes policy is what is agreed at Cabinet. What is Government policy? We hear ministerial statements but that does not constitute policy. Policy is something that is agreed at Cabinet and I understand this has not changed. I would have thought the Minister would have done something about that since 2007 if he was so active in that regard.

Mr. John Dunne

I understand from the Deputy's question he wishes to know why we are rallying at this late stage. It is quite simple from the private waste sector's point of view. Up until the middle of 2009, although an incinerator was to be built there was no legislation in place, through a permit or otherwise, forcing private operators to use the incinerator. However, in recent months Dublin City Council has brought about a situation whereby through the permit regime it is trying to direct private operators' waste to the incinerator. This was new. Whether the Deputy refers to this as a Cabinet or ministerial directive, at local level Dublin City Council has already issued permits to that effect. With these permit regulations in place several members within the IWMA — all except 5% of members — cannot collect waste in Dublin at this stage. It is at the behest of Dublin City Council where they must bring whatever waste they collect in Dublin. That is the change and that only took place in the early part of last year. That is what has changed at grass roots level and what has brought about the waste industry's ire over this incinerator. This is the reason we believe in the need to curb either the size of it or to abandon it altogether if necessary.

Mr. Brendan Keane

It may be helpful to add a further comment. The McKechnie ruling will have a dramatic influence because in the case of the policy position and the interpretation of it by local authorities a line has been drawn in the sand. Local authorities believed they could direct waste or could define where it went because they believed they had that responsibility as defined in the 1996 Waste Management Act. However, Mr. Justice McKechnie went further——

Did local authorities always understand that to be the case? I am from the midlands and the local authorities there maintain they cannot stop waste going in and out of the region. Was it only Dublin City Council which believed this was the position? It is not the assumption of any local authority in the midlands. We all know of the existence of what is known as waste tourism.

Mr. John Dunne

Some 25 out of 26 counties do not have a problem with this. Dublin is the only one that has a problem with the direction of waste.

When Mr. Dunne refers to Dublin, is he referring to Dublin City Council as the lead authority on behalf of the other local authorities?

Mr. John Dunne

That is correct.

We are aware of it but it is important to state it such that everyone is clear.

Mr. Brendan Keane

The Waste Management Act 1996 defined that local authorities had a responsibility for household waste in their region but the nature of that responsibility was not defined. Dublin City Council took the view that this meant it owned the waste and could define what happens to it. Most other authorities took the view that they did not mind as long as it was being properly managed, processed and that it met the proper criteria.

Dublin City Council signed a deal with Covanta and Dong Energy and indicated they would build it and direct the material into the plant and that they could do so. The reality is that Mr. Justice McKechnie turned this on its head and clearly defined in his announcement that it was no longer the responsibility and that the legislation did not mean the local authority owned it. He takes the view that the collector of the waste at the time was responsible, was the owner of that waste and could define what happened to it, provided it went through the appropriate hierarchy.

In terms of statements made by the Minister, as opposed to Government policy, waste policy has directed itself towards dealing with the problem of meeting our landfill directive deadlines. How will we deal with 500,000 tonnes of biodegradable municipal waste? The international review carried out recently put forward various suggestions but still came back to source separation as the way forward, either at the home place or via emergency actions. What will we do with 500,000 tonnes? We face a serious problem of being fined by the European Commission if we do not meet our landfill directive. What proposals do the delegates suggest waste policy should enshrine?

Mr. Brendan Keane

Mr. Conor Walsh might comment on that because he is totally independent, as an environmental consultant with SLR. However, one thing we see is that the tonnage available can be diverted. There are facilities under construction or in planning which will be quite capable of taking that material and processing it appropriately. We are building an incinerator in this country that will take 200,000 tonnes. We have landfills that can take inert materials and reach the levels, having regard to the types of material that can go in there. All that is required is that prior to doing that we take out the biodegradable fraction and compost it and take out the other fractions and find the best recovery routes for them. Many of our members are employing that technology now and it is only a question of ranking it up in their facilities. Mr. Walsh might wish to comment on the overall picture.

Mr. Conor Walsh

The figure of 500,000 tonnes was reduced recently. The EPA recalculated what was and was not biodegradable. At latest it said——

I hope a consultant did not do that.

Mr. Conor Walsh

No, the EPA did it. The figure now is 280,000 tonnes as what must be reduced by July of this year. It is still a significant amount. The EPA takes the approach, irrespective of policy, of implementing the European legislation from the bottom up in the sense that it is just stopping the waste going to landfill and is developing protocols and agreements with the operators of landfills in how they will reduce those numbers. That material will be pushed up the hierarchy. The main thing that will happen is the roll-out of the brown bin which is expected this year, both commercially and for households. That will have the potential to divert that 280,000 tonnes to composting, anaerobic and other facilities. There are other options in that area.

The way the industry sees itself developing in the country is that there are about six mechanical biological treatment, MBT, facilities, one incinerator, one gasification plant and one autoclaving facility, which is mechanical heat treatment. All these facilities would be able to take that biodegradable waste out of landfill. It will not all happen by 2010. Some facilities are ready to go while others will take a number of years but by the time the 2013 target comes along and if the Poolbeg plant is on stream at the same time, it can all be dealt with by spreading that load across a number of facilities.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

We need a balanced portfolio of technology and infrastructure to deal with the waste. There is no silver bullet, no one magic technology or facility that will solve the issues we have. My understanding of Government policy is that it is looking for integrated waste management and facilities. As part of that it has also looked at incineration. We all say we do not have a problem with that but we do have a problem with building a plant that is so large as to suffocate the development of other technologies and industries and having over-reliance on a single technology that will do the same thing now as it will do in 25 years' time. At current size it does have enough of the flexibility we need in terms of our growing needs. It is no longer a question of incineration being appropriate but a question of the level and scale of the facility.

I was looking recently at certain costs of treating waste per tonne. The Minister often spoke about mechanical and biological treatment. It is the most expensive method of dealing with waste according to the international review and the figures we have been given. Whether the review is right or wrong, it mentions MBT as having a significantly higher cost.

Committee members will wonder what we should do now about the contract entered into with regard to the Poolbeg plant without exposing the taxpayer further regarding breach of contract on tonnage or in stopping the project. Perhaps the delegates might give the committee some notion of where to go from here in line with their statement that we should stop now after €120 million has been spent. Projects have stopped in mid-stream before. If we proceed with the project at this stage and if there were to be some challenge regarding breach of contract, would the taxpayer be exposed further?

Mr. Brendan Keane

I shall ask Mr. John Dunne to answer the question on MBT and the costing before providing the Deputy with the answer.

Mr. John Dunne

On the costing of the MBT, my company, Panda, is developing an MBT facility at a cost of €21 million. That will be opened, or the sod turned, on Friday, believe it or not. As a commercial organisation, that would never have got past bankers if we had not put the cost benefit together and if it had not made sense.

Panda, per se, is not particularly affected by a 600,000 tonne facility in Dublin now that the judge has kindly ruled we do not have to bring the material we collect in Dublin to it. We are actually spoilt for incinerators because on our way down from our facility in Slane we pass the one in Duleek. The Deputy asks whether MBT is cost effective. All I can tell him, from the perspective of one company, is that we spent a lot of money and did all the research and it is, absolutely. It comes back to Mr. Keane’s point about the size of the incinerator. If at 300,000 tonnes it will cost so much per tonne, when one ups it to 600,000 tonnes one is into the realm of predatory pricing and all sorts of competition issues. One opens a whole can of worms.

The delegates have good experience of that with the Competition Authority.

Mr. Brendan Keane

I ask Mr. Dempsey to contribute.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

Building on that one must look at — I am not sure what data the Deputy means——

I mean the international review.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

Yes. One must look also at the total cost. It is not just a question of gate feeds. In this instance, given the size of the incinerator and the waste available for it, it must hunt waste from all over the country. Therefore, one will have to add on the transport costs and the levies that are being proposed and the various treatment and disposal taxes the Minister seeks to apply. When one equates all of that, MBT can certainly compete. Greenstar, along with Panda, has chosen that technology because, on a cost benefit, we know it can compete in the market.

Mr. Brendan Keane

To give a full answer, if one looks at waste treatment technology versus recycling — I am in this business for 28 years — I can tell the Deputy the magic number is €100 per tonne. Once one gets to €100 per tonne one can probably carry out most processes on waste and decide which way one wishes to divert it, whether for recycling or whatever. At that number everything will come in.

The other question asked was what we would do about the problem we have at the moment. A really big benefit would be to see this contract and get it out in the open. Perhaps the Minister cannot see it but we hear rumours coming out in the newspapers. The reality is we have not seen the contract or the out clauses. At the moment we have an organisation which was accused in the courts of massaging information, telling us we cannot see the contract and even if we could, that it cannot get out of it. I would like to see that in black and white print. The Deputies here deserve to see it in print because they represent the taxpayers who will have to pay for this. We should see it, see if there is a clause in its regard and find a methodology to get out of it. This is at the cusp. We should find the method to get out now rather than cost ourselves potentially €500 million over the next 25 years. This is madness. We should look at it because there must be a cheaper way out of it than what is there at this point. It is something we are going to have to do. We must ask to see the document, open it and look at it.

As a public representative for Dublin South-East where the incinerator is, I have a vested interest. Mr. Dempsey said it very well. This facility will suffocate everything else under it. Dublin City Council, Covanta Energy, Dong Energy and the consultants should be invited to appear before the committee to go through the implications of the new directive. They have many questions to answer in respect of the size and the impact of this facility on recycling and employment. The delegates may have commented on the number of people the companies employ. The sum of €120 million was mentioned. Was it necessary to spend that amount? It was also stated that the Irish Waste Management Association has lodged a complaint with the Commission. At what stage is that? Is there any feedback from the Commission?

Mr. Keane quoted from Mr. Justice McKechnie's judgment which found that Dublin City Council had abused its dominant position in respect of one of his members. Does the Irish Waste Management Association believe Dublin City Council abused its position in respect of this development on the Poolbeg incinerator?

Mr. Brendan Keane

The Deputy has asked a number of questions. My colleagues may respond to different points. That document was only submitted to the European Commission last week. It was based on the fact that Dublin City Council is using State aid to operate a facility which gives it a competitive advantage so that it can again monopolise the situation. Its objective is to put its competitors out of business and have the material delivered to it so that in the future it will be able to increase the price and make a great deal of money. If State aid is being provided our view is that one has to advise that such aid is being provided. The EU Commission then says whether it approves it. It is pretty evident that providing State aid in this case was for something for which Dublin City Council truly had a responsibility at that time. Mr. Conor Walsh has established that Dublin City Council is probably talking about 200,000 tonnes of material that is required to go to an incinerator if it does not wish to get the maximum recovery out of it. On that basis, why are State funds being used to build a facility that will deliver 600,000 tonnes to the market? Mr. John Dunne's company has spent €21 million to get a facility on which there will have to be a return. He cannot get that return if the material is not available because somebody else has managed to get a facility built. The 320,000 tonnes put or pay contract is, essentially, guaranteeing the set up costs of the operation. Therefore, it can sell the other 280,000 tonnes of waste at marginal costs. If it wants to come in zero it could do that. There are very significant issues in relation to all of that.

Is that the case in all authorities?

Mr. John Dunne

In regard to the €120 million spent, the best information we have is that €70 million related to the purchase of the lands from Dublin Port. The other €50 million is made up of €22 million to RPS consulting and we do not as yet have any breakdown for the other €38 million. It is not hard to accumulate it when an oral hearing continues for 18 days and another for 12 days. While the residents were doing their best Dublin City Council came along with 20 consultants, all staying in the Westbury Hotel enjoying five-course meals and so on. That is where we feel much money has been squandered.

The recent court ruling opens up a much bigger problem for Dublin City Council. Dublin City Council always assumed, for whatever reason, that it could deliver whatever waste it guaranteed to the incinerator. Because of the recent ruling, even the 200,000 tonnes of waste it controls, by virtue of the fact that it lifts it, is under serious threat. We now have a situation where the market is open to competition. We have seen what happened with just two operators coming in. In less than three years 12% of the market has been taken. If that continues for another four or five years, Dublin City Council will not have any waste tonnage to give. Dublin City Council, like the other four local authorities, cannot compete when a typical bin man works for three-and-a-half hours per day. That is what it is up against, the labour and unions. All four local authorities operate on the basis of a driver-helper working for about three-and-a-half hours per day. Mr. Owen Keegan quoted these figures when he started to lose market and was trying to justify either staying in or dropping out of the market. That is well established. It is far less than the commercial operator. Regardless of what way it is packaged they will never be competitive in the market. Therefore they will lose in an open competitive market for market share.

Mr. Chris Andrews

What is the average in the commercial sector?

Mr. John Dunne

It is nine hours per day. We are all bound by the 48-hour rule. No matter how hard we want to work we are limited to 48 hours but it is a full day. That brings about a situation whereby if the waste is not collected by Dublin City Council and the other three local authorities it is not owned by them and, according to the ruling by Mr. Justice McKechnie, they cannot direct it. In that case there is no fuel to go into this incinerator so they have a major problem.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

To qualify Mr. Justice McKechnie's ruling, obviously the local authorities tried to vary the waste management plan and, effectively, say that only they could collect waste in Dublin city or they could appoint agents to do so. Mr. Justice McKechnie felt there was motivation to do this and felt that a reasonable person could find "that they would have an interest in ensuring that they would be able to meet their contractual obligations. Indeed, it would only be through remonopolisation that they would conclusively ensure that all waste they collected was delivered to the Poolbeg facility". He certainly appeared to see this. To return to the Deputy's question as to whether we believe there is abuse of its dominant position, it is impossible for us to say. Mr. John Dunne gave a breakdown of the €120 million. I am confused having read reports in The Sunday Business Post at the weekend as well as previous reports in December from John Tierney where he said he had spent €120 to date. It was stated in The Sunday Business Post that €70 million is to be spent on land costs. Is that incremental to the €120 million or is it included in the €120 million? We do not know. That is the reason we need Dublin City Council, Covanta Energy, Dong Energy, and their advisers to come in and answer that question. It is worth kicking the tyres with Dublin City Council to find out what is going on. In his judgment, paragraph 139, Mr. Justice McKechnie said, ”The only bodies which would ultimately benefit from the variation are the respondents [that is Dublin City Council] since he would restore to them a de facto position of monopoly. It is clear, therefore, that the actions of the respondents amount to an abuse of their dominant position” and, obviously, he sets that out.

They put forward arguments in regard to efficiencies and the environment which the judge did not find credible. He said, "I am also satisfied that any efficiencies arguments advanced by the respondents, which almost entirely relate to efficiencies obtained by them rather than consumers, must also fail in this regard." He says they are motivated for their own reasons, not for Dublin, not for the greater good, but for their own commercial benefit. It is incumbent on us to say these are the people who are asking us to make a huge leap of faith with no facts before us and with a contract under lock and key. They are hiding behind commercial privilege. It is commercially privileged but we, the Irish taxpayer, are underwriting it. It is in that regard that they have serious questions to answer.

I will call Deputy Andrews for a brief supplementary question.

Mr. Chris Andrews

Have the figures been done in the event that this incinerator goes ahead with the existing contracts? What type of numbers would the waste industry lose over a year or two?

Mr. Brendan Keane

Is the Deputy referring to jobs?

Mr. Chris Andrews

Yes.

Mr. Conor Walsh

That was one of the conclusions of our report. When we questioned the waste industry we found that the people who felt their businesses were immediately threatened by the Poolbeg incinerator employ 2,154 people in waste management out of which we estimated that about 50% were in operations and about 50% in collection. While these companies are developing new facilities and expanding their existing operations, they cannot finance anything if they do not control their business. The difficulty for the waste companies is that Dublin City Council is telling them that the material they collect is under its control and direction and it can direct all waste to the incinerator or wherever. That leaves the waste companies with no control of their business. When they go to the bank for finance for a development, the bank will refer them to somebody like us to do a due diligence examination and when we are asked if they can make it pay, the answer is "no" because they have no control over their business. In that situation, none of the developments can go ahead and we will have one incinerator in Dublin. Unless the waste companies can pay for the development from the balance sheet, which is very difficult for any company in the current climate, the development will not go ahead and people will lose their jobs.

Mr. Brendan Keane

Up to 1,000 jobs directly and probably another 1,000.

Is that immediately?

Mr. Brendan Keane

It is 1,000 immediately. Having gone through shut down of an operation, I can say that once a tap is turned off, one has to tell the people one is sorry, that one can no longer employ them because there is nothing for them to do. One thousand people will be out of work as soon as this facility opens its door and possibly many more. By my reckoning 2,500 people will be laid off after the opening of this facility.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

Direct and indirect.

Mr. Brendan Keane

It will employ probably 30 to 50 people. The jobs created during the construction of the facility are irrelevant, they come and go.

I congratulate the delegation on its presentation. The members of the Irish Waste Management Association are hard nosed business people. If the Dublin City Council were to halve the capacity of the facility, would the delegates be happy with that? As far as I am aware, there was a proposal for an incinerator in Rathcoole, which was rejected by the board on account of the capacity of the incinerator under discussion. Am I correct in stating that when the local authorities finalise their waste management plans, they must make provision for facilities to dispose of the waste? When the delegation referred to working in partnership with local authorities, do they mean that it was a 50:50 arrangement or was it an understanding of tendering for the work? What facilities are available for dealing with waste within a 25 mile radius of Dublin?

Mr. Brendan Keane

The Deputy raised several issues. I will deal with some of them and refer the others to my colleagues.

In response to the question of halving the capacity from 600,000 tonnes to 300,000 tonnes, there has been so much said that we need to establish a realistic figure and Mr. Conor Walsh has established that it ranges from 200,000 tonnes to 300,000 tonnes. I suspect that we hold that view. Dublin City Council has to come to that conclusion and be comfortable with it. We are quite happy to make the data available and to have it reviewed to make the best decision. We need to use science to arrive at the correct figure. We know it is commercially viable to build a 200,000 tonnes unit because Indaver decided to construct a 200,000 tonne incinerator in County Meath, and it did not do that for the goodness of its health. One assumes one can start at a particular size and grow into it. We are happy with a smaller unit because we think competition is a good idea. We do not want to see a single member having the unit, that is the be all and end all. This does not suit us, neither does it suit our customers. We want to be able to compete with each other. It is a good idea to have a competing facility. It should be sized correctly. It should have a capacity of between 200,000 and 300,000 tonnes.

In terms of the Rathcoole facility, Indaver was not a member and we know the proposal was thrown out for a range of reasons, including the waste management plan. My colleague might comment on it further.

The local authorities are responsible for writing a plan which addresses all of the waste arising in their area. Hazardous waste is the responsibility of the EPA, but the local authority takes account of the types of waste generated by businesses and households in its area, and decides how it should be dealt with, for example that a certain percentage of the waste goes for composting, energy recovery or some other procedure higher up the waste hierarchy. Realistically, at a maximum we need one or two waste authorities; we do not need ten but we have them. A country of 4 million people does not need ten waste authorities pulling and dragging each other in different ways.

On the question of the partnership, there are several businesses operated by local authorities that are run by commercial operators following a tender process. Local authorities have stepped back and let other operators into their area, however much of the waste ended up in landfill, owned by the local authorities. There had to be some kind of agreement. Local authorities wanted to take the waste material and were quite happy to see it come into their area.

Mr. Conor Walsh

I will clarify the question. There are a great many facilities within a 25 mile radius of Dublin. Does Deputy Fitzpatrick mean an alternative to landfill, to incineration and so on?

Is there a need for incineration in Dublin?

Mr. Conor Walsh

The conclusion drawn in our report is that there is need for capacity of 300,000 tonnes in Dublin.

Is that figure based on what is available in the landfill in Dublin?

Mr. Conor Walsh

No, it is based on the Dublin waste management plan and the targets set, on the availability of waste to the authority and on the waste growth projects that we have in our report. That gives a figure of between 250,000 tonnes to 300,000 tonnes over the 25 years of the life of the incinerator up to 2037.

Mr. Brendan Keane

Landfill will be needed as well, because 30% of what goes into an incinerator comes back out to landfill and there are solutions required for that. Our point is that with the segregation of material, plastic and so on will go to the cement kilns, as essentially one is replacing coal. Irish Cement and Lagan have stated publicly they will take material. Paper and plastic can be sent directly for recycling. Composting is a key element to deal with biological material and facilities are being developed to deal with it. Our members have facilities that can easily be cranked up to process higher volumes at existing facilities. The infrastructure is quite close to Dublin, within a 50 mile radius of the city centre. An incinerator with a capacity of 200,000 tonnes is being built. We like competition in the market, so it would be a good idea to locate a similar facility somewhere else that can compete with it.

I have a question. The proposed incinerator will have a capacity of 600,000 tonnes of waste per annum. Are the delegates satisfied that they will construct an incinerator of that capacity and on day one have half of it idle? Do they have the ability under the contract to construct the 300,000 tonnes facility, which Mr. Dunne appears to believe is approximately the right figure, and add on another 150,000 tonnes facility in ten years' time if and when required? If there is 600,000 tonnes they will do it but if Mr. Dunne is saying the 300,000 tonnes figure is about right, I put it to him that the 320,000 tonnes Dublin City Council has signed up for is not a mile away from the mark.

Another question he might answer, although he might ask us to follow up on it, concerns when the contract was signed. Do we know what year it was signed? Was it last year, the previous year or several years ago?

Mr. John Dunne

It was when the new Minister came into office, that change of Government. It was between Governments.

In 2007. My question, which Deputy Andrews might be interested in, is that a contract like that has major financial implications for the local authority in terms of what I call a contingent liability under the put or pay contract. Has the local government auditor examined this contract as part of his audit?

Mr. John Dunne

Nobody has seen this contract except Dublin City Council and Covanta.

How could the auditor for Dublin City Council sign his accounts without seeing this? Mr. Dunne probably cannot answer that.

Mr. John Dunne

We do not know the answer to that.

We, as a committee, will ask that question.

We have had one side of the story——

We are not disagreeing with what the representatives said but we are teasing out the issue.

——but it would be helpful if we invited Covanta, Dong, Dublin City Council and the consultants to come before the committee to make a similar presentation following which we could ask many questions.

That will probably be the outcome. We will take this issue further.

The committee might consider that.

I have an interest in two other State organisations, one of which is the local government auditor. What did he say about this contract in his audit for the past year or two? This committee will write directly to him and ask if he covered this, whether he has published anything in his internal reports, and to give us a copy of what he published because he should have done that if an issue arises.

Second, this is a public private partnership and my understanding is that the National Development Finance Agency, which is a subsidiary of the National Treasury Management Agency, has a responsibility to advise all public bodies regarding any capital project over €20 million. We will write to it to determine if it examined the contract. I will be surprised if it has not seen the contract because my understanding is that the financing of this contract by way of PPP should have been cleared through the National Development Finance Agency. We will write to it asking about its role and any information it can supply by way of correspondence, and if needs be we will take the matter further with it.

This committee might invite in those groups again.

Before this committee, yes. This committee will follow up the issue of the local government auditor and the National Development Finance Agency, and we will keep our options open regarding Dublin City Council and Covanta.

That is a separate company.

We should also consider the consultants because they were centrally involved.

Yes. The council is free to bring them.

And Dublin City Council.

We will do that in any event and that will open up the process. To go back to my first question, are they building or do the representatives know that?

Mr. Tony Smith

May I answer that, Chairman?

Mr. Tony Smith

It is about the technology used and how an incinerator is constructed.

Mr. Tony Smith

The engine of an incinerator is the waste bunker. That is where all the waste is tipped in the first instance. It is taken out by crane and then conveyed into the kiln, which burns the waste. Essentially, that size is to take a certain amount per week or per month and so on and therefore they must build the infrastructure. It is not as scalable. It is not like a housing estate where a sewage treatment plant works——

Can they not add on different cells to it over a period?

Mr. Tony Smith

No. It is one big bunker, one big building. They could potentially take out boilers at the back and only put one boiler on——

The burner.

Mr. Tony Smith

No, a boiler as opposed to a burner. They have a line that burns the waste. It has a certain thermal capacity. It is a certain throughput of tonnes per hour, and it is designed as such. If one wants to change that, one must take that out and put in a new one.

Why would Covanta-Dong build a facility for 600,000 tonnes if they are only guaranteed 320,000 tonnes?

Mr. Brendan Keane

That is a good question.

It might be an obvious question. I do not know.

Mr. Brendan Keane

It is an obvious question——

There is no obvious answer though. That is the trouble. We are not getting it.

Mr. Brendan Keane

The obvious people to answer that are Covanta, Dong, Dublin City Council and their consultants, RPS. Our view is that there is a commercial benefit to doing it. We think, and this is conjecture, that the 320,000 tonnes put or pay contract pays for the whole ship. In other words, the people said: "Fixed cost. That gets that done for 320,000 tonnes. That will be——

Break even point.

Mr. Brendan Keane

----break even point. After that, it does not actually cost us much more to expand the heat capacity of the unit so we will make it for 600,000 tonnes for the same price and then we will go out and compete in the marketplace." That is fine if our waste activity growth is like this and our population is going through the roof, so to speak. However, it will not work in a closed market like Ireland with 4 million people unless they say they will bring it in by ship from elsewhere or compete on other markets, which are generally not realistic. We believe this is a commercial undertaking. They were thinking they would profiteer out of this and do so in an anti-competitive way.

On a point of clarification, I presume under the contract it has to be segregated waste. It cannot be collected waste. Do we know that? I presume it has to be segregated waste.

Mr. Brendan Keane

By the householder.

From then on, yes.

Mr. Brendan Keane

The householder chooses what to throw in the bin.

The 320,000 tonnes we are talking about is household waste. Is commercial waste going into it?

Mr. Brendan Keane

We believe the 320,000 tonnes put or pay contract is for household waste. If, say, a local authority gets material from the commercial sector we believe it does not relate to the 320,000 tonnes put or pay contract.

That probably gives it an element of comfort that it can do it through the commercial waste collection system.

Mr. Brendan Keane

We believe it is outside it.

Mr. Tony Smith

If I might help the Chairman. In the original planning application and the PA they applied for 500,000 tonnes of household waste, municipal waste, and 100,000 tonnes of commercial-industrial waste.

Mr. Tony Smith

They recently wrote to the Environmental Protection Agency and applied to reduce the amount of commercial-industrial waste to 50,000 tonnes and increase the amount of municipal waste to 550,000 tonnes.

It has gone the opposite way.

Mr. Tony Smith

It has gone the opposite way around, yes.

Mr. Brendan Keane

They may be looking at dragging it from other places across the island, possibly out of Cork. That would create a traffic issue in terms of that material being brought up and down the roads, or bringing it out of the south east or some other region.

In terms of the energy generated out of this facility, is it just electricity into the national grid or——

Mr. Brendan Keane

And steam. They are hoping to put in a district heating system which will take the hot water out of the facility and provide it as district heating into the local area.

They will not generate electricity out of it.

Mr. Brendan Keane

As well.

Is that significant?

Mr. Brendan Keane

It is but——

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

It is quite significant. We are talking about 6% of the——

That is small in heating terms. That is only a fraction of the city. I presume the electricity generation——

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

They are talking about 50,000 to 60,000 homes between heating and electricity.

That is a small number.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

That is presupposing it gets there because some of the combined heating and the pipe work is due to go to Spencer Dock. It remains to be seen what will get built in Spencer Dock. It has the capability to do that but it is not necessarily running into existing homes.

Separate from the heating, are they generating electricity for the national grid?

Mr. Brendan Keane

Yes. They will use a certain proportion of that energy themselves. They will produce that, reuse that energy and distribute the rest to the national grid.

Electricity.

Mr. Brendan Keane

Electricity. There will be a benefit.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

Fifty thousand homes.

That is not a lot.

Mr. Brendan Keane

It is not but anybody will say that is a good thing, and it is. However, the point is that a good chunk of that is recycling material that could go back as a primary feed stock to somebody else who will utilise it. Why build this animal, so to speak, when Lagan Cement, which will be making cement for the next 50 years, is happy to use that material as a fuel replacing coal that is shipped from Bolivia or elsewhere? Those are the other arguments behind this.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

In terms of the question about the 600,000 tonnes, Dublin City Council and its representatives are the best people to answer that but they have consistently gone on the record saying they will build the facility at that level. They have said in meetings with the Irish Waste Management Association that they will keep going on this until somebody stops them. That is what they said to us at a formal meeting of the IWMA. I do not know whether that is a gauntlet being thrown down or whether they believe they can get out the gate with this one.

On a point of information, I see the names of two operators on the name tags. How many operators is Mr. Keane representing? Are they part of a national organisation?

Mr. Brendan Keane

The Irish Waste Management Association has 26 members and is a country wide association. We represent companies that operate at local and county level, for example, Mulleady's Waste Management in Longford. We have most of the operators in counties Kerry and Cork and in the midlands. There are three or four waste processors who are not current members. They were members in the past, but with the difficulties they have dropped out. We represent those in waste processing who collect almost 90% of the waste that is collected by private enterprise.

Who is the largest operator in the association?

Mr. Brendan Keane

Two of them are represented here.

Mr. Jerry Dempsey

Greenstar is the largest.

The main players are here.

Mr. Brendan Keane

I am the spokesman.

We have had a useful discussion and as a committee we will take the matter further. We will contact those organisations.

The local authority, Dong and Covanta might attend.

We will take advice. Dong and Covanta, being private companies have no obligation to come before the joint committee, but we can ask them.

Even a refusal would be significant.

There is a precedent in the West-Link Toll Bridge which was operated by a private operator. The Committee of Public Accounts invited it to appear before it and although it had no obligation to reply, it chose to accept the invitation and came in.

I thank the delegation for coming. The joint committee will continue its consideration of this issue during February.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 3 February 2010.
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