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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010

Waste Policy: Discussion.

No. 3 is the main business of the meeting, a discussion on waste policy. Members will recall our discussion with the Irish Waste Management Association, IWMA, and the concerns it raised regarding its report entitled, Dublin Regional Thermal Treatment Needs Assessment. I am pleased to welcome officials from Dublin City Council, DCC, and Covanta Energy to discuss these concerns. I welcome the following: Mr. John Tierney, Dublin City Manager; Mr. Seamus Lyons, assistant manager; Mr. P.J. Rudden, RPS Consultants; Ms Elizabeth Arnett, RPS Consultants; Mr. John Single, project manager, DCC; and Mr. Michael Phillips, city engineer-director of traffic. I also welcome Mr. Scott Whitney, president of Covanta Europe, Mr. Malcolm Chilton, managing director, and Mr. Paul Gilman, chief sustainability officer, Covanta Limited.

The format of our meeting will involve a brief presentation by both delegations followed by a question and answer session. Before we begin, I want to draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Tierney to make his presentation.

Mr. John Tierney

I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the waste-to-energy facility at Poolbeg. It is a welcome opportunity for me to set the record straight, given some public comments in recent times, and the concerted campaign now being waged against the project by, among others, the IWMA. It should be noted that the IWMA did not object to the facility during the various statutory processes and members are significant operators of landfill facilities. Its representatives made certain allegations against the Poolbeg project at their recent session with the committee. I will simply present the facts and this in itself will deal with many inaccuracies in their comments.

In 1996, the four Dublin local authorities appointed consultants to prepare a new wide-ranging waste management strategy for the Dublin region. The brief required a thorough technical, environmental and economic appraisal of waste management practice in Dublin, including an appraisal of internationally available policies and technologies. After a wide-ranging public consultation, the new waste management strategy was published in January 1998. It advocated an integrated approach in accordance with best international practice. A policy of maximum realistic recycling and minimum landfill was recommended. Performance targets were set as follows — 59% recycling, including construction and demolition waste, 25% energy recovery and 16% landfill. The mechanisms recommended for dealing with the residual waste, left over following recycling and biological treatment, were thermal treatment of up to 750,000 tonnes per annum and a new regional landfill of 11 million tonnes. The elected members approved preparation of a regional plan in early 1998 based on the strategy as presented. Further rounds of public and stakeholder consultation were held before, during and subsequent to the draft plan preparation. All four elected councils formally adopted the regional waste management plan, some unanimously.

Following adoption of the regional plan at political level DCC commissioned consultants to further investigate biological and thermal treatment options and to carry out site selection studies. The site selection study for thermal treatment recommended Poolbeg as the optimal site but left the technology choice and eventual size of the plant open to the PPP procurement process.

In March 2001, DCC appointed a consortium to act as client's representative for the Dublin waste-to-energy project. During 2001, 2002 and 2003 baseline data for the project were reviewed and verified, and the contract conditions were developed and approved by DCC and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, DEHLG. It was decided that the project would be developed as a public private partnership using the appropriate EU procurement procedure. At that time, further diligence was carried out to validate the volume of waste to be diverted from landfill. This informed the put-or-pay aspect of the project. In July 2002, DCC commenced the procurement process and set detailed criteria with respect to financial strength, relevant technology, operations experience and strong organisation to be met by applicants but welcomed all proven technologies to pre-qualify. The preferred site for the project was the Poolbeg Peninsula, but applicants were invited to propose alternative sites, if such were under their control in areas with applicable zoning. The invitation to negotiate was issued to the selected bidders on 4 November 2003.

A project board was established and first convened in January 2004. The board comprised representatives of DCC, DEHLG, the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, and the client's representative. A process auditor from the Department was also appointed and co-ordinated directly with the project executive board on matters relating to the PPP procurement process and acted as an observer of the board. Three bids were received on 16 April 2004. In June 2005, the procurement report was finalised and issued to the DEHLG, NDFA and the Dublin local authorities. The project agreement and related documents were submitted for approval to the DEHLG and NDFA in June 2005. In September 2005, the project agreement was sanctioned by letter issued by the assistant secretary, environment division of the DEHLG.

Elsam AS was selected as the preferred bidder on foot of its tender. Due to a number of company acquisition-merger arrangements, the participants in that tender were restructured such that Covanta became the major participants in it. A project board meeting was held on 14 May 2007 at which DCC requested approval to proceed to finalise and enter into the project agreement with a PPP co-owned by DONG Energy and Covanta, substantially in the form that had been sanctioned. The project board decided that approval to award the contract for the project would be given in accordance with the original sanction given in 2005.

The project agreement was executed by all parties on 4 September 2007. Planning permission was granted by An Bord Pleanála on 19 November 2007. The EPA licence was granted on 2 December 2008 and the licences from the Commission for Energy Regulation were granted on 4 September 2009. Works commenced on site on 14 December 2009.

The IWMA has made much play about the potential liability for site acquisition, relocation costs, the cost of statutory processes, etc. The breakdown of expenditure to date is site acquisition and relocation, €34 million; client representation costs, €25.5 million; and preparatory works on district heating, €3.5 million. The balance of the site acquisition and associated cost has yet to be determined through the CPO process, but we are working on the basis of a worst case scenario. We have to provide the site for the building under the PPP agreement. Acquisition of a site in a city context for a plant of this nature is a difficult process. Price is based on either agreed valuations, having regard to expert advice, or if no agreement is reached, on valuations through an independent CPO and arbitration process. Client representation costs are significant because of the complexity and length of the processes over ten years, including the PPP aspect and the input required to achieve the statutory permissions. The project involved expertise in planning, stakeholder engagement, engineering, environmental, financial and legal aspects. It should be noted that an amount of €7.5 million was allocated by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government with regard to costs for procurement, with support from the EU Cohesion Fund. This is further evidence that the Department and the European Union were locked into the project. In addition, an amount of €4.7 million has been recouped to date from Covanta towards the costs of the statutory processes.

The Dublin local authorities have been directed by Government policy for almost 14 years in respect of this project. They have incurred the costs outlined above and are in a contract for the provision of a waste-to-energy facility because of Government policy. Indeed the law was changed in 2001 to give powers to the managers to ensure the implementation of the policy. At all stages our actions were approved by the Department and the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, and were in accordance with Department of Finance guidelines for PPPs. There has been much comment recently about the "put or pay" clause. The provision of major public infrastructure using the PPP approach has been a central tenet of Government policy for the past 15 years and this involves risk and benefit sharing on the part of the public and private sector. Without some right to raise revenue, such projects would not be funded by the private sector and the full cost would have to be provided by the State. From the point of view of the public sector — local authorities in this case — it is essential to have access rights to the plant. In its report, the ESRI deals in great detail with "put or pay" clauses and confirms the appropriateness of entering into advance contractual commitments in projects such as this.

The contract between DCC and the PPP company does not provide for an automatic payment from DCC if it does not need to use the 320,000 tonnes capacity set aside for its use. There are 38 pages in the contract dealing with payment and performance. The Dublin local authorities are only obliged to make a payment if a waste provision or revenue target for the plant as set out in the contract is not met each year. Even if the Dublin local authorities present less waste to the plant, the commercial dynamic operates such that Covanta will source the waste itself directly from the market to meet the Revenue targets, thereby avoiding or minimising any payments by the Dublin local authorities. It must be remembered that residual waste within the region must go to the highest point in the hierarchy and based on current plans and EU legislation, that is likely to be the Poolbeg plant for the foreseeable future. It should be noted that there are economic benefits for Dublin arising from the successful operation of the plant. For example, electricity generation will result in a payback which will assist in meeting our liabilities under the project, aside from the benefit itself.

The size of the facility has also caused much debate recently. The Dublin local authorities are of the view that the plant is appropriately sized and this was confirmed by the Environmental Protection Agency in the granting of the waste licence. Recent waste statistics have confirmed the need for the plant. In 2008, some 735,000 tonnes of waste from the Dublin region was sent to landfill. This is an underestimate of the figure, as not all commercial operators have made their returns for the year. Waste is a function of economic activity and population growth.

The ESRI and the EPA acknowledge that there is a reduction in waste at present due to the recession, but both agencies predict waste increases of from 3% to 4% per annum in the next 20 years. There will be a significant population increase in the region in the period to 2030. Dublin is an international city region and in order to attract investment we must have an infrastructure to cope with future development. We have been criticised for capacity issues with regard to water supply and waste water. Are we now to be criticised for proposing a plant of a proper size to deal with residual waste for the next 25 years — a plant that can be used to produce district heating and electricity at the same time? The incineration plant proposed by an IWMA member for the north-east region is proportionately the same size, for the population and waste arising in that region, but appears to have the support of the IWMA.

Dublin's current waste management plan is similar in strategy to the waste plans of many of Europe's top waste management cities, including Stockholm, the European green capital for 2010. A report just published by COWI, reviewed and endorsed by Professor Thomas Christensen of the Technical University of Denmark, states that the Dublin waste-to-energy project is an integral part of the Dublin waste strategy which complies with EU climate change policy. The report goes on to say that the proposed Dublin waste-to-energy plant contributes significantly more towards reaching climate change targets than any combination of MBT, anaerobic digestion, co-incineration using waste as a fuel or landfill. Professor Christensen was chairman of the waste and climate conference in Copenhagen in December 2009.

The IWMA is of the view that the Dublin local authorities are involved in waste management for financial gain. Local authorities operate on the polluter pays principle and therefore we strive to break even in the provision of waste management services. Were Dublin City Council to make a profit in any one year, it would lead to a reduction in charges the following year. We have a statutory responsibility to be involved in waste management. With regard to waste collection, the IWMA is right in that local authority involvement takes different forms around the country. However, there is evidence that where local authorities remain involved, recycling rates are higher. Local authorities are also concerned about the treatment of lower income households. Waiver schemes are prevalent where local authorities are involved. In Dublin city alone, there are 40,000 waiver cases and the full cost of schemes is borne by the local authority without Government assistance.

We agree with the recommendation in the international review, as do the ESRI, the Competition Authority and the OECD, that there should be competition for the market rather than in the market. There are major downsides to a free-for-all in the market. If this particular recommendation in the international review was implemented by the Government, it would address our concerns on this issue.

The ESRI, in its report published today, believes that despite some positives, the international review does not provide a road map for the way forward for waste management in this country. The National Competitiveness Council has also commented negatively on the international review. The ESRI states that the international review sets forth some sensible general principles for guiding policy and makes some welcome recommendations with respect to household waste collection, producer responsibility and refundable compliance bonds for construction and demolition waste. However, it believes the international review must be considered a failure in respect of its proposals for setting residual waste levies, per capita targets for reduction in residual waste and guidance in the appropriate mix of waste technologies. In its opinion, the review does not explain how its proposed levy structure was derived from its underlying research. There is no explanation of how Ireland will accelerate recycling rates way beyond levels in the UK and it does not find the target of 70% for recycling credible. The review did not provide any guide on the mix of technologies and leaving stranded assets through a cap on incineration is not addressed. There is no analysis of how alternative options, such as MBT, can be fast tracked.

The ESRI believes that the task undertaken in the review was too big. It argues that the programme for Government and the proposed policy direction on incineration and other matters placed constraints on policies for no coherent or compelling reason. In particular, incineration was to be disfavoured and MBT encouraged. Making this a precondition in the analysis distorted the results from the outset. The terms of reference for the regulatory impact assessment stipulated that the levy rates should be set so as not to provide any competitive advantage to incineration and instead to encourage MBT. The ESRI points out that this is a very debatable approach and instead the levy should have been set on the basis of the associated externalities of a particular method of treatment and examining the evidence in this regard. Despite nods towards greater attention to costs and benefits, these issues are conspicuous by their absence.

The ESRI is of the opinion that nothing in the review suggests that it will enhance international competitiveness. Rather it is of the view that instead the whole process of waste management is likely to have generated unnecessary uncertainty that is likely to have increased regulatory risk and thus raised investment costs and biased technological choices, so damaging consumers and taxpayers. Moreover, by not achieving a least-cost mix of waste management facilities and practices, the proposals are likely to lead to higher prices for users of waste management services. The ESRI refers to the Minister saying that considered research is the essential foundation for good and robust policy, but it is of the view that the international review does not fulfil that description and that it is unlikely to lead to a sustainable waste management policy.

In its concluding note, it makes the point that the past two years have been wasted and the question of whether the change is necessary has never been asked. These are the words of the ESRI under this heading, not mine.

The Dublin local authorities believe that if certain proposals contained in the international review are implemented, they may be open to challenge. The Dublin local authorities have no wish to be in conflict with the Minister. In my meetings with him I have explained that we are in a contractual position. I have written to him and detailed the evolution of the project to date and pointed out all of the facts of the case. I have set out the potential consequences of the project not going ahead. To stand in the way of a contract entered into in good faith under existing policy would be unprecedented, when, as the ESRI put it, no good reason exists for doing so.

I will describe the situation as of now. Work on the site is under way. The plant is needed and it is the correct size. It is compliant with Government policy, and it has the consent of An Bord Pleanála, the Environmental Protection Agency and the Commission for Energy Regulation. The contract price mechanism is below the affordability cap as set by the Department and well within the public sector benchmark. It has been certified as value for money by the Department and the NDFA; it provides value for money for the taxpayer and the ratepayer. It is a €350 million inward investment in the Irish economy and it has the necessary finance to be constructed. It will be a net energy producer with a significant proportion of renewable energy and it will contribute more to climate change targets than any of the alternatives. With the introduction of the three-bin system, we have gone beyond MBT and in the short to medium-term, waste to energy is the most efficient way to meet the requirements of the EU landfill directive and avoid the fines which have already been triggered from 1 January 2010.

I will conclude by asking why the project is being subjected to so many obstacles and why attempts are being made to penalise the Dublin local authorities for implementing Government policy.

Mr. Scott Whitney

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for their invitation to participate in today's committee meeting. My name is Scott Whitney and I am president of Covanta's European region which includes, among other countries, Ireland and the United Kingdom. I am accompanied by Malcolm Chilton, managing director of Covanta Limited, and Paul Gilman, chief sustainability officer, Covanta Energy Corporation. We welcome this opportunity to discuss the key facts surrounding the Poolbeg energy from waste project and our involvement in it. Covanta Energy is extremely pleased to be involved in this important environmental initiative. The public private partnership arrangement under which this project is being implemented is very similar to the project structures that exist for most of the 40-plus energy from waste facilities that Covanta currently operates on behalf of municipal partners.

I propose to begin by giving the committee a very brief introduction to Covanta Energy. I will then go on to deal with the key features of the Poolbeg project and to address some of the related questions and concerns that have been raised by members and by various other parties. Thereafter, my colleagues and I will be pleased to attempt to answer any questions the members may have.

Covanta processes more waste into energy than any other company world-wide. We employ over 3,500 people. The company has a strong financial balance sheet and a very stable operating business with turnover in 2008 of over €1.2 billion and total assets greater than €3.1 billion. In the United States, we operate 41 energy from waste plants as well as eight biomass plants. We have two energy from waste plants in China and in Europe and we partner in the operation of one energy from waste facility in Italy, just outside Milan. We are also involved in a number of new projects in the UK, some of which are in advanced stages of development.

Our business model is to partner with local authorities under long-term relationships, as is the case with this project, and we have had very positive experiences with our client communities in implementing this model. Covanta has a wealth of experience and technical know-how in this specialised field and we have successfully built 21 large-scale plants of the kind currently being constructed at Poolbeg. Our track record is outstanding and our commitment to excellence in every facet of our operations is paramount. I am proud to say that we have an outstanding environmental and health and safety record.

Covanta's comprehensive environmental compliance programme has resulted in consistently outstanding environmental performance at our facilities over the years. A table is included in the material that we provided to the committee that documents this fact. The table shows for each year the total number of hours operated by our fleet of plants in the United States and the proportion of time in each year that the plants were completely compliant with their environmental licences. Specifically, during the eight-year period ending in 2008, we achieved an average of 99.9% environmental emissions compliance. Typically, actual emissions fall 60% to 80% below permitted levels for individual constituents so the overall emissions of our facilities are typically well below regulatory requirements.

As required by permit and regulation, Covanta reports any breaches to enforcement agencies and seeks to work co-operatively with the agencies and other environmental groups. When breaches occur — which is rare — immediate action is taken, including shut-downs if necessary, until the problem is rectified. Breaches are not acceptable, but when they do occur comprehensive incident investigations are performed to help prevent future incidents.

The critical nature of consistently outstanding environmental compliance is woven into the fabric of Covanta's corporate culture. Annual pay for operating employees is directly linked to the environmental and health and safety performance of the facilities in which they are employed. In fact, a significant component of annual pay for all employees, including home office personnel, is tied to ongoing environmental and health and safety performance.

I will now detail our involvement in the energy from waste project here in Ireland. We commenced site development works at Poolbeg in December and expect the new facility to be operational in early 2013. It represents a capital investment by Covanta of about €350 million. Approximately 500 workers will be employed directly on the project during the construction period. As mentioned earlier, this is a public private partnership with ownership of the plant transferring to Dublin City Council at the end of the 25-year operating contract so this facility will provide benefits to the citizens of the greater Dublin region well beyond the initial contractual period.

Once operational, this plant will divert up to 600,000 tonnes of waste annually that is currently going to landfill. It will produce approximately 56 MW of electricity — enough to supply about 50,000 homes calculated on a very conservative basis, or almost 12% of Dublin's household electricity needs. It can also provide district heating to the equivalent of up to another 60,000 homes. A substantial portion of the energy produced will be classified as renewable, helping Ireland meet its energy renewable targets. The fuel is indigenous, thereby reducing Ireland's dependence on imported fuel. The additional waste processing capacity will enhance competition within the Irish waste management sector.

Poolbeg will move Ireland away from over-dependence on landfill, which is currently the disposal method for about 60% of the country's waste arisings. Landfill is universally recognised as the most environmentally damaging waste disposal method and this fact is reflected in the official EU waste management hierarchy which specifies waste reduction, reuse, recycling, recovery, including energy from waste, and landfilling, in that order of priority. Beginning this year, if it does not substantially reduce its dependence on landfilling, Ireland is liable for annually increasing landfill diversion fines from the EU that could run to millions of euro.

I am aware that there have been claims from various quarters that a 600,000 tonne facility is too large. This is not so. At present, about 700,000 tonnes of waste from the Dublin region is being landfilled annually. The figure was 735,000 tonnes in 2008, from an overall waste output of 1.2 million tonnes. Large quantities of waste in other parts of the country are also being landfilled. I wish to assure the committee that this facility has been sized correctly and is designed to take residual waste which is left after Dublin achieves its ambitious recycling targets.

We should also bear in mind that by the time the plant comes on stream, we expect renewed economic growth to have kicked in, which will in turn generate further waste for treatment and disposal. There is also population growth to consider. Even at conservative growth rates of 1% per annum over the next 30 years, which is lower than the projections of most analysts and the Central Statistics Office, the population in the greater Dublin area will increase by 500,000.

Having operated in this business for over 25 years, Covanta is aware that the production of energy from waste is a matter of anxiety for many people. It is a comparatively new form of technology in Ireland. This project has been rigorously examined over a considerable period of time by An Bord Pleanála and the Environmental Protection Agency. They gave the project their approval, subject to rigorous operational standards. The EPA in Ireland has the power to enforce compliance with stringent EU directives on emissions and plant operations. The plant will be continually monitored throughout its life and environmental data will be available in real time to enforcement agencies for scrutiny and compliance. This information will also be accessible by the public. Dublin City Council and Covanta have held several open days for the local community and the wider public. Our most recent open day took place last Saturday, with over 100 participants from the general public. We will continue to hold open days on a regular basis during the construction period. We are committed to keeping the public regularly informed.

Under the terms of the planning permission, Covanta and Dublin City Council are establishing a major community gain fund, which will allocate up to €20 million to worthwhile projects in the Poolbeg region over the next 25 years. Decisions on how the money will be spent will be made by a community liaison committee, comprising three nominees from the local community, three elected representatives of Dublin City Council, two officials from the council, one representative of Covanta and an independent chairperson.

I wish to deal briefly with some of the claims made by the Irish Waste Management Association when it appeared before the committee recently. We have already addressed the issue of why the capacity of Poolbeg — 600,000 tonnes per annum — is appropriate and soundly based. Unfortunately, the association has also made a series of other inaccurate claims. It has claimed that if the Poolbeg project proceeds as permitted, it will lead to the loss of 2,000 jobs in the waste management industry. Indeed, it randomly raised this number to 2,500 when members of the committee asked questions on the matter. Frankly, we believe neither figure has any veracity. If the amount of waste sent to landfill reduces over time, consistent with Government and EU policy, a small number of jobs directly related to landfill operations may be displaced by higher paying jobs associated with the operation of energy from waste or mechanical biological treatment facilities. Existing jobs in waste collection and the various other recycling technologies will continue. We ask the association to provide the specific data and analysis on which its claim of significant job losses is based.

There is no justification for the Irish Waste Management Association's claim that the Poolbeg facility will adversely affect Ireland's recycling rates. In other EU countries with advanced waste management systems, high recycling rates co-exist with high rates of energy from waste capacity. Ireland's expanding kerb side recycling programmes and mechanical biological treatment applications are expected to continue beyond the commissioning of the Poolbeg plant. This is confirmed in the various market studies I have mentioned. Communities in the United States where Covanta operates energy from waste facilities have higher recycling rates, on average, than communities not served by energy from waste facilities.

The association has also claimed that the implementation of the Poolbeg facility will be anti-competitive in terms of the Irish waste management market. The introduction of an additional 600,000 tonnes of waste processing capacity will increase, rather than reduce, competition within the local waste processing sector, and will drive down waste disposal costs. While this may not be good news for one or two private companies with ownership of significant existing landfill capacity, it is good news for residents and businesses in the Dublin area. Frankly, we are puzzled by the association's recent stance. I suggest that members of this committee should bear in mind that no objections from the association or any of its members were raised at either of the two lengthy oral hearings that were held in relation to Poolbeg at the inquiry stages.

We are aware that some people in Ireland have expressed a preference for mechanical biological treatment rather than energy from waste. The problem is that mechanical biological treatment, which involves taking mixed waste from a black bin and extracting the compostable and recyclable materials, with the remainder going to incineration or landfill, has limited applications. It is not a magic solution and is particularly unsuited to the three-bin system being rolled out in the Dublin region. The three-bin system will remove many of the recyclables that mechanical biological treatment is designed to extract. This would increase the net cost and decrease the viability of the system. Mechanical biological treatment is typically more expensive than energy from waste and this would only increase that difference.

The EU waste directive states that both mechanical biological treatment and energy from waste are recovery technologies and are to be treated equally within the EU waste management hierarchy. Therefore, there is no logical basis for a preference for mechanical biological treatment rather than energy from waste. Ireland is investing in technology to develop a modern waste management industry where some operators invest in mechanical biological treatment and others invest in energy from waste. Competition is healthy and benefits the consumer. This is a typical approach in countries and municipalities with superior and best practice waste management systems. The Poolbeg facility will allow for an efficient apportionment of waste to recycling, thermal treatment and other technologies, including mechanical biological treatment.

I would like to address briefly two other issues which have given rise to public concern. Questions have been raised about the nature of the signed contract for the Poolbeg plant, particularly its put or pay provisions. It has been claimed that those provisions could cost Irish taxpayers up to €18 million per annum. The agreement with Dublin City Council is a normal contract for facilities of this nature. Under the vast majority of public private partnerships that have been implemented for similar projects in the US and the UK, the public partner is obligated to supply waste for the entire capacity of the facility on a put or pay basis. In the case of the Poolbeg project, however, Dublin City Council is required to supply waste for approximately half of the facility's capacity. The private partner is responsible for obtaining waste for the remainder of the capacity. In addition, the council has the right to reserve additional capacity under favourable terms on relatively short notice. This puts the city of Dublin and its rate payers in the advantageous position of benefiting from the economies of scale of a larger facility without having to take on the financial risk associated with the entire project. Dublin City Council will also benefit from the sale of electricity and heat.

The contract does not provide for an automatic payment to be made by Dublin City Council if it does not need to use the annual capacity of 320,000 tonnes that is set aside for its use. There is a revenue target on the plant and it can be met in a number of ways. It will be met by the council providing 320,000 tonnes of waste, or by Covanta procuring additional tonnage from the market. The agreed tonnage is at a reduced rate and represents good value to the council because it ensures it will always have access to the plant for their waste. In other words, it will provide a stable waste treatment option for many years to come.

The contract was subjected to exhaustive scrutiny by various State agencies including the National Development Finance Agency, the role of which is to maximise value for money for the Exchequer. It was approved not only by the agency, but also by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The contract is a balanced and fair risk allocation between the public and the private partner. The contractual arrangement provides an equitable sharing of economic benefits and risk and will keep the parties aligned in the success of the facility.

In summary, Covanta is the world's leading operator of modern energy from waste facilities. We have committed to an inward capital investment of €350 million in the Irish economy. The facility that is the subject of this public private partnership will enable Ireland to reduce its current dependence on landfill in order to meet the requirements of the EU landfill directive, thereby avoiding significant financial penalties in future years. It will provide a substantial number of well-paying jobs, both during the three-year period of construction and the more than 25-year period of operations. It will assist in Ireland's efforts to meet its renewable energy targets, reduce the production of greenhouse gases and reduce the impact on global warming, all at an economical cost to the citizens and businesses of the greater Dublin region. I thank the Chairman and his colleagues for their attention. We will be pleased to attempt to answer any questions they may have.

I thank Mr. Whitney. Before I call Deputy Hogan, I would like to ask Mr. Tierney a question. I am approaching the matter from the perspective of Irish and EU taxpayers. Covanta claims it has built 21 large-scale plants of the kind proposed for Poolbeg. Were Dublin City Council, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the National Development Finance Agency advised by someone with equivalent experience in negotiating a large number of similar projects? They were dealing with a large multinational company with vast experience of negotiating contracts of this nature. I suspect it was one of the first contracts of this nature to be signed in Ireland. It is, therefore, impossible, that anyone in Ireland could have matched the experience Covanta had clearly acquired, having gone through this process on 21 previous occasions.

Will Mr. Tierney indicate who was advising Dublin City Council? Did the adviser or advisers have a proven track record in negotiating on behalf of local authorities or government agencies in other countries? The joint committee would like to have the comfort of knowing that there was an equal level of skill and ability on either side of the negotiating table.

Mr. John Tierney

It must be remembered, as explained in our submission, that the company changed during the process. Covanta eventually ended up as the majority shareholder in the original company, Elsam AS. I can supply the joint committee with a list of the client's representatives, from RPS to McCann Fitzgerald, the legal representatives from which the city council took advice across all the various disciplines. Covanta will admit that the deal done on the project in Poolbeg is better for Dublin City Council than any contract the company has negotiated elsewhere. That is the proof of the pudding.

In that case, will Mr. Whitney explain the reason Covanta was so soft on Ireland?

Mr. Scott Whitney

That is a good question to which I would like to respond.

As a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, I have encountered many cases of State bodies entering into contracts with companies which have the best expertise available to them. Covanta's financiers probably include some of the major investment banks. While there are many excellent public servants in the Irish public sector, they do not have commercial knowledge or experience of negotiating contracts of this nature. We have had several cases of private sector companies running rings around the public sector, despite the excellent commercial advisers available to the latter. Examples include toll bridges and motorway contracts. The reason the private sector has been able to do this is its experience. I am concerned that we may be taking a similar route in this case and that in 20 years Covanta will have made an abnormally large profit. While I am not suggesting that will occur, I would like to believe there was equal ability on both sides of the negotiating table. However, I am not certain that was the case. Did Dublin City Council have available to it advisers with experience to match that of Covanta? I am aware that the National Development Finance Agency has excellent staff who may have experience.

Mr. John Tierney

We also had a Danish company, COWI, involved as part of the client's representative consortium.

Will Mr. Tierney provide information on that matter to give members some comfort?

Mr. Scott Whitney

As Mr. Tierney stated, Covanta entered into this project, in partnership with Danish Oil and Natural Gas, relatively late in the process. After the speech I gave, I cannot claim that Covanta is naïve in the energy from waste business. However, by the time we entered the process, the contract was virtually completely negotiated. We were told in no uncertain terms by Mr. Tierney and the Dublin City Council team that we had to shoehorn into the existing contract and that there would be no negotiation on any of the key items. We were initially somewhat distressed by this and tried several times to change several components of the contract. We were told, however, that if we wanted to be involved in the project, we had to live with the existing contract which had been negotiated between Elsam, Danish Oil and Natural Gas and Dublin City Council.

The National Development Finance Agency would have used a public sector benchmarking comparator to determine whether it would have been more economical for the State or the private sector to complete the contract. Is the relevant report available to the joint committee, city councillors or members of the public? I am informed that for waste treatment plants and so forth, a public sector comparator is normally available to the local authority which signs the contract. Is that information confidential?

Mr. John Tierney

The Chairman would need to check the position with the National Development Finance Agency. I understand it would not be available.

In the interests of being upfront, the joint committee has corresponded with the NDFA on this issue in the past week. We will follow up directly with it.

I thank the Chairman and welcome the delegations from Dublin City Council and Covanta to the joint committee's hearings on waste management, with particular reference to the facility proposed for the Poolbeg Peninsula. The joint committee has a difficulty in so far as we are receiving representations and presentations from people who believe either the Poolbeg project is too large or incineration is not the correct approach to waste management policy.

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government had an international review of this issue carried out and employed consultants. Dublin City Council also employed consultants, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. Senator Boyle has stated the ESRI does not have the expertise to deal with environmental issues. On what basis does Mr. Tierney believe it can deal with these matters more effectively than the international review commissioned by the Minister? Is the institute qualified to do that job? Does Mr. Tierney disagree with Senator Boyle's assessment that environmental issues are not necessarily its expertise?

Does the Deputy have further questions?

I am trying to set the scene. I ask Mr. Tierney to answer my questions before I proceed further.

Mr. John Tierney

The Department's spokesperson stated this morning that it was difficult to understand Dublin City Council's motives in commissioning the ESRI report, other than that it was an attempt to undermine the national review of waste policy. The same spokesperson pointed out that the Government decided waste policy and it was not up to local authorities to dictate what should be national policy. Dublin City Council is well aware that the Government decides national waste policy and that the council implements it at local level. That is precisely what it has been doing. It appears any submission contrary to the views of the international review is about undermining that review. That is a strange supposition in a democracy. The ability of local government to express a view prior to a policy being made is good. The Economic and Social Research Institute is an independent organisation which based its findings on evidential research.

What is Mr. Tierney's understanding of Government policy on waste? Has it been notified to him?

I ask Mr. Tierney to give the short rather than long answer to Deputy Hogan's question.

Mr. John Tierney

Government policy is enunciated in policy determinations such as Changing Our Ways and Taking Stock and Moving Forward and legislation such as the Waste Management Acts. This policy is used as the basis for decision making by local authorities, the Environmental Protection Agency and An Bord Pleanála. Dublin City Council is following current Government policy in what it has done.

Mr. Tierney may forgive me for saying he and the Minister appear to have a difference of opinion about policy. The Minister makes pronouncements. Has Dublin City Council been notified by the Department or the Minister that Government policy on waste has changed?

Mr. John Tierney

Again, I ask the Deputy to note Dublin City Council's submissions to the Environmental Protection Agency. The agency, which also has regard to Government policy in making decisions, concluded that the council's proposal should be approved. Indications of a possible change in policy are separate matters which require assessment. Such an assessment takes place before a decision is made. In many ways, the ESRI report is a contribution to that process.

Mr. Tierney has indicated that the Department was aware. Was it represented on a steering group?

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

Mr. Tierney has also indicated that the Department allocated €7.5 million from the Cohesion Fund for the purposes of dealing with procurement costs. When was that done?

Mr. John Tierney

While I will have to check the exact date, it was done around 2005. The full sum did not come from the Cohesion Fund.

It was a contribution.

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

The Irish Waste Management Association has been strongly critical of the project on the basis of the amount of waste it will be possible to gather for the purposes of meeting the contractual requirements associated with the new incinerator. Where will Dublin City Council find the waste if the association's figures are correct? Is the council allowing for waste produced in surrounding counties or other parts of the country to supply the required tonnage? Is that option open to it?

Mr. John Tierney

I advised of the figures and referred to having the appropriate infrastructural capacity in a city like Dublin, an international city region. An Bord Pleanála, the EPA and the ESRI have all agreed with the proposed size of the facility and that it is allowing for the correct balance between recycling and energy recovery from residual waste. I remind the committee that all of our actions have been heavily focused on recycling, from initiatives such as the green bin and the roll-out of the brown bin. While recycling will increase, so will the population. The spatial strategies are focused on making urban areas such as Dublin higher density and more compact. We saw how quickly the capacity of something like the waste water treatment plant was used up. Under-forecasting and lack of funding have bedevilled infrastructural investment policy for years.

What is Mr. Tierney's understanding of the role of the authorised officer the Minister proposes to appoint? Speakers referred to a cost of €18 million in the event of the council not being compliant with the Minister's wishes, as well as a cost to the taxpayer. What is Mr. Tierney's understanding of the role of that initiative?

Mr. John Tierney

As yet, we have not been advised on the exact role of that person. I have simply pointed out to the committee the different checks and balances we have had to go through to date to bring the project to where it is. We are talking about more than ten years' work to get to where we are today having regard to all the hoops that we rightly had to go through as part of this process. What was the second part of the question?

Does Mr. Tierney have any idea of how the sum of €18 million was arrived at?

Mr. John Tierney

We have no idea of how that was calculated.

Mr. Tierney indicated that he has been in correspondence with the Minister and that he has met him. Did he ever ask Mr. Tierney to stop the project?

Mr. John Tierney

The Minister's views on Poolbeg have been well stated by him, without any need for me to put words into his mouth.

Is it the case that the Minister never asked Mr. Tierney to stop the project but that he read it in the newspaper?

Mr. John Tierney

I have advised the Minister of the position of Dublin City Council. That is my job.

At this stage, what steps can the Minister take to stop the council from going ahead? What are the consequences of making any contractual change on capacity? As Mr. Tierney has pointed out, that is a big issue. What are the options? Are we on an irreversible course towards completing the project?

Mr. John Tierney

The contract has been signed and work is under way. That is the position with the project. I have advised what the position would be on the basis of certain scenarios but I cannot predict what will happen.

I have just one question for Mr. Whitney. Is it his understanding that the project will go ahead through hell or high water?

Mr. Scott Whitney

The project is proceeding. We started construction on the site in Poolbeg on 14 December. We are doing site work. We have released the major equipment vendors, the boiler, the turbine generator and the air pollution control equipment vendor to do their initial design so that we can review it, finalise it and use that as a basis for them to start the fabrication of those major pieces of equipment.

Has Mr. Whitney entered into contractual obligations to get that equipment?

Mr. Scott Whitney

It is bespoke equipment, not off the shelf, so it is an ongoing process. We have committed €350 million to finance and build the project. We do not spend it all in one day. We spend it over time. We are obliged to move forward under the contract.

I thank Dublin City Council and Covanta for coming before the committee this afternoon. I have three questions for Mr. Tierney and three questions for Mr. Whitney. I know other speakers wish to contribute so I will be as brief as I can.

During Mr. Tierney's presentation he put on record that there are conflicts between him and the Minister. I would be grateful if Mr. Tierney would give specific examples of the conflict between Dublin City Council and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Minister?

If the council is in conflict with the Minister and his Department, what does Mr. Tierney believe to be the legal standing of his side of that conflict? Has he taken legal advice? If so, could he communicate that advice to the committee this afternoon?

Who is implementing Government policy? Is it Dublin City Council or the Minister, Deputy Gormley? Currently, there seems to be two different views as to what Government policy is being implemented.

Mr. John Tierney

What I said in my presentation was that we have no wish to be in conflict with the Minister.

But the council is.

Mr. John Tierney

One obvious issue relates to building the plant to a certain size. That is well known. Another issue is the cap on incineration. They are some of the differences. We have taken legal advice on the contract and where we are in terms of that.

Has that advice been furnished to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

Mr. John Tierney

I advised the Minister by letter of the potential consequences of not going ahead with the project based on legal advice. As to who is implementing Government policy, I have argued today that we are implementing Government policy as it stands.

Perhaps I can move on to Mr. Whitney. I thank him for attending the committee this afternoon. Regarding page 7 of the presentation, my colleague, Deputy Hogan referred to the possibility of additional waste being procured from different regions but the document suggests that it is not the responsibility of Dublin City Council, that it will be the responsibility of Covanta. The document states that there is a revenue target on the plant and it can be met in several ways, either by Dublin City Council providing 320,000 tonnes of waste or Covanta procuring additional tonnage from the market. Where does Mr. Whitney see the extra tonnage coming from? Would it be from other local authority areas or is there a potential that Covanta would import the material from abroad to maintain the incinerator as a commercially viable operation?

What are the implications to Mr. Whitney's business plan in the event that other incinerators are introduced into the Irish waste market? There are talks currently about two other possible incinerators, one in Meath and one in Ringaskiddy in my constituency of Cork South-Central. What would be the business implications for Mr. Whitney were those two incinerators to get up and running — in spite of the strong opposition to them? Would he be able to find additional waste to burn?

Mr. Scott Whitney

I will address the first question, on where the waste will come from. We are confident that there is enough waste in the local greater Dublin region to fill this facility. In 2008 more than 700,000 tonnes of waste from the greater Dublin area went to landfill. The capacity of the facility is approximately 600,000 tonnes per year. We are confident that for the foreseeable future, assuming that this country complies with European Union waste management policy, the EU landfill directive and the waste management hierarchy, that one way or another that waste will come to this facility. To the extent that it does not, there is plenty of additional waste within a close radius of the Poolbeg facility to fill that plant.

That is not answering my question. Mr. Whitney has a business plan, as does any company that will essentially enter any market. Covanta's business plan is based on Dublin City Council being able to provide it with a given amount of waste. It is news to most members that if that waste cannot be acquired, it will not be the responsibility of the council to find it. Part of the contract stipulates that Covanta will look for the waste. Where does it believe it will find it? There must be contingencies in its business plan. Does it envisage finding waste in Athlone or Limerick or, ultimately, abroad? If the predictions are correct, the company will have to operate in a commercially viable way. The oxygen of the company is waste. Where will it find it?

Mr. Scott Whitney

Based on our experience in the couple of dozen facilities we have developed and operate and the 20 or so we have acquired and operate, we are confident there will be enough waste.

Can Mr. Whitney rule out that his company will not be seeking waste outside the Dublin City Council region and from abroad to keep it commercially viable?

Mr. Scott Whitney

I cannot predict what will happen.

Mr. Scott Whitney

One must assume Ireland will comply with the EU landfill directive. A member asked what Government waste policy entailed. It is a little uncertain and, as long as this is the case, there will be turmoil in the Irish waste management market. The facility is at least three years from the start of operation. The folks who are to bring the waste to the facility are wondering what will happen. These questions are to be answered in the next two or three years as Government policy becomes more clear and it becomes more clear how and when Ireland will comply with the EU landfill directive.

Should companies other than Covanta enter the market? I refer to Indaver which is trying to put a proposal together with Cork County Council. If it and another incinerator company enter the market, how sustainable will it be for Covanta to operate in the indigenous waste market? Will it have to go abroad to find waste?

Mr. Scott Whitney

We assume other companies with plans to enter the market will carry out the same analysis as Covanta on what the market will bear in terms of the amount of waste that needs to be processed in any of the waste facilities. Those companies will make their decisions accordingly. If there are operators which believe they can compete with another energy from waste facility elsewhere in the country and obtain the necessary approvals and permission to proceed, we will be happy to compete with them in an open market.

Is the importation of waste for burning in Poolbeg within the scope of Covanta's business plan, now or in the future?

Mr. Scott Whitney

Yes.

Mr. John Tierney

Waste will not be brought in from outside Ireland.

According to Mr. Whitney's presentation, that is the Government's responsibility.

Mr. John Tierney

Waste can only be sent to the plant on the basis of the regional waste management plans and Irish law applicable at the time.

The procurement of waste, as Mr. Whitney stated, is not the council's responsibility but that of the incinerator company.

Mr. John Tierney

No, it is the legal responsibility. That could still happen.

Could it be brought in from Northern Ireland?

Mr. John Tierney

Only if it were catered for in Irish law and waste management plans.

Mr. John Tierney

Not at present.

I welcome the delegations. In the city manager's report it is stated that in 1996 the consultants put together a brief and considered internationally available policies and technologies. One imagines progress would have been made in the interim. However, we are still working from the 1996 template, although technology has improved.

The private sector has indicated it could develop a similar incinerator project for €6.5 million. It has been stated in the newspapers that the project under discussion has cost €120 million to date. May I have a breakdown of the cost in terms of land and consultancy fees? Why did the scale of the project expand such that the initial figure of 400,000 tonnes increased to 600,000 tonnes when during the same period the council lost its share of the waste over which it had control? In the period in question construction work begun on an incinerator just 30 km up the road in County Meath which will take approximately 200,000 tonnes of waste a year.

Deputy Hogan referred to the €18 million to which, according to the Minister, the taxpayer would be liable every year for 25 years. The delegation has stated it does not realise from where that figure came. What is its estimate of the liability to the taxpayer?

Two weeks ago representatives of the Irish Waste Management Association were before the committee when they made a very interesting presentation. Does the council work in isolation regarding waste policy or are there joint initiatives? As far as I am aware, the High Court indicated the private operators achieved better recycling levels. Why is this the case?

For years, landfilling was the only means of dealing with waste. It now seems we are moving from a giant landfill solution to a giant burning solution. Does this make sense? Even if one buys into the ESRI prediction of an increase in the volume of waste of 4% per annum, how can one see sense in the figure of 600,000 tonnes of waste, bearing in mind that the High Court stated the council no longer controlled the waste market? The private sector is developing other facilities to deal with waste. As I stated, there is an incinerator being developed only 30 km up the road which will cater for 200,000 tonnes of waste. Why spend €120 million on an incinerator that seems so huge it will not be viable?

Mr. Whitney stated Covanta had a turnover of €1.2 billion. While a fine of $250,000 payable to the US Department of Environmental Protection, a fine of $32,000 for excessive emissions in Pennsylvania and a fine of $5,000 for failure to report air quality violations probably do not eat into the company's budget very much, an offence attracting such a fine would have a big impact on Dublin Bay.

I am not sure whether Mr. Whitney is aware of the wastewater treatment plant which did not work and which caused huge problems for residents all around Dublin. It had a serious impact and was a PR disaster for Dublin City Council, as I indicated on another occasion. Is it any wonder that residents are unhappy when they note Covanta's track record in the United States and couple this with their really bad experience with a big infrastructural project? Does Mr. Whitney understand why people are sceptical and unhappy?

How much did the ESRI report cost? The ESRI stated there would be a 4% increase per annum in the volume of municipal solid waste from 2012. However, Dublin City Council's report illustrates the volume of household waste only increased by 0.65% per annum during the Celtic tiger. Are we expected to believe the ESRI that Dublin will experience a greater increase in the volume of municipal waste now than it did during the boom?

Was the ESRI made aware that the recycling and biological treatment of waste occupied a higher position in the hierarchy of waste treatments and as such, under EU law, had to be prioritised?

Mr. Scott Whitney referred to community gain. How much will this come to and who will benefit from it? Has there been any contact with community groups about this? What are the timelines for such a scheme and how will it work?

Mr. John Tierney

I have already given the costs. They comprise site acquisition and relocation costs, €34 million; client representation costs, €25.5 million, and preparatory work costs on district heating, €3.5 million. The balance has not yet been paid but we have estimated a worst case scenario. This has been determined on the basis of expert valuation advice. It may also be determined through the compulsory purchase order process which may be decided by an independent arbitration process. I have referred to the difference in a city and rural context. The process of providing this facility in Dublin has been complex and lengthy. There was recoupment from both the Department and the public private partnership towards these costs.

Regarding the €18 million figure, we do not believe there will be a liability to the taxpayer.

At the beginning of his statement Mr. Tierney said it would be minimal.

Mr. John Tierney

I did not say anything like that. I even pointed out that funds provided for electricity generation could go a long way in meeting costs.

Mr. Tierney's presentation reads:

Even if the Dublin local authorities present less waste to the plant, the commercial dynamic operates such that Covanta will source the waste itself directly from the market to meet the revenue targets, thereby avoiding or minimising any payments by the Dublin local authorities.

Mr. John Tierney

That is providing for a scenario because of some of the issues raised about the agreement. That does not assume there will be a liability. It points to what the situation wil be if certain other events occur.

The ESRI report cost €103,000, plus VAT. Mechanical biological treatment and incineration are on the same level in the EU waste treatment hierarchy.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

In 1996 Dublin City Council cast its eye around not just Europe but the world to see how municipal waste management was handled. At the time up to 95% of our waste was landfilled at a cost of about €1 per tonne, which means only 5% was recycled. We knew we had to start from scratch. We brought on board European partners from Copenhagen's environmental protection regulatory authority and economic consultants with an international reputation, KPMG. All the various technologies were examined from environmental, technical and economic perspectives. It was not the case that we decided we wanted a particular technology. We examined how waste was handled, particularly in cities equal in size to Dublin. At the time there were some exciting beginnings with regard to alternative waste management policies and technologies. A mechanical biological treatment method was available known as refuse derived fuel, RDF, which had already been tested in the United States for ten years. There were alternative thermal technologies that did not involve incineration, some of which were being promoted by environmental organisations, namely, gasification and pyrolysis but many of them were on a small scale. It was concluded that the best practical environmental option, having modelled various scenarios, was to use a tried and tested technology. For a city the size of Dublin, it was not hard to find European examples where incineration with maximum energy recovery was the favoured technology. The leading European capital cities still use that technology and are extending its use with little public opposition. The challenge we are facing in Dublin is that it is a new technology. Having regard to the technological developments since we first examined this issue, we would still recommend incineration for Dublin city. There is no other technology that is as reliable, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, with low emissions in accordance with EPA guidelines.

Many a city has had a public relations disaster with alternative waste technologies. They include, for example, Naples with mechanical biological treatment and German cities with gasification in which whole towns had to be evacuated. We do not want any guinea pigs in Dublin. We want it to work, be safe and clean.

Our recommendation has not changed. This year the European Commission short-listed eight green cities and Stockholm was the winner. Seven of the eight cities use the very technology under construction in Dublin.

Mr. John Tierney

Deputy Chris Andrews asked if Dublin City Council worked in isolation. The four Dublin local authorities work together.

I meant working with private industry. Does the council have any joint initiatives with private industry? The High Court has indicated private sector recycling is more effective and efficient.

Mr. John Tierney

I would certainly dispute that assertion. Having read the details of the court case, I have no recollection of the judge referring to that point. Where local authorities are still involved in waste management in particular areas, recycling levels are actually higher. I worked in Galway city before I came to Dublin and we drove the recycling situation there, for example. Mr. Lyons wants to come in on the issue of community gain.

Mr. Séamus Lyons

There is provision for a community gain fund, as mentioned, and that would go towards helping various projects in the area of Poolbeg. The provision involves asking an initial sum of 3% of the capital cost of the facility. Thereafter, when the plant opens on an ongoing basis, €1 per tonne is payable.

What would the 3% amount to in euro?

Mr. Séamus Lyons

It would depend on the ultimate cost of building the facility, but if, as Mr. Whitney has said, they are talking about €350 million, it would be 3% of that, equivalent to €10.5 million. As to how that is to be dealt with, the membership of the community gain committee was set out earlier by Mr. Whitney. It will comprise a number of Dublin city councillors as well as other local representatives. We advertised at least a year ago for people who might be interested, but because of various delays we intend to readvertise to allow people who might now be interested to come forward. We have been asked by the south-east area committee of Dublin City Council to come back to it at its February or March meeting with a report stating how we intend to take matters forward, and we intend to do this.

Thereafter, we shall be asking the public for nominations for representatives and it will be a matter for the south-east area committee to determine how it will select those people.

What sort of groups would benefit from that?

Mr. Séamus Lyons

It could be local community groups or----

Would this include schools?

Mr. Séamus Lyons

It could. The only thing it cannot do is replace projects that the council under normal circumstances would be obliged to carry out. Therefore, it would be additional to anything the council is doing in the area.

Mr. John Tierney

On the question of joint initiatives, I should have mentioned that we are involved with Repak. There is a joint initiative involving the green bin, and we have contracted with the private sector to do that.

Mr. Scott Whitney

I wish to address Deputy Andrews's concern about the technology, but first I want to clarify a point relative to the community gain fund. The initial funding of the community gain fund that applies during the construction period is set out by formula under the contract and there is a specific definition for the capital cost to which the 3% applies. It results in a very substantial sum, equivalent to about €8 million for the capital cost. As Mr. Lyons has said, it is another €1 per tonne of waste process at the facility during the operating contract.

Is this for the whole of Dublin or will a specific area benefit from that?

Mr. Séamus Lyons

It is specifically for the local area.

Will Mr. Whitney comment on the perception of Covanta and the difficulties it has encountered in the United States?

Mr. Scott Whitney

We take environmental compliance very seriously, as I have said in my statement, to the point where a substantial portion of the annual pay of all our employees is based on our environmental compliance record. On average, the facilities we operate have complied completely with their environmental emissions standards — 99.9% — over the past eight years during which statistics were kept.

The monetary fines mentioned by the Deputy in terms of their amount are of critical concern to Covanta, but what is more important to us is the negative attention they draw. The very fact that we are discussing them today tends to highlight that, so we take those breaches very seriously. We strive for 100% compliance and we hope to achieve this with each of our facilities.

I wish to characterise for the Deputy the nature of the enforcement and the nature of the emissions measurements at our facilities. The emissions are monitored continuously. Electronic monitors take samples every few seconds of the key constituents being emitted from our facilities. Those samples are analysed and in many cases are sent on a real-time basis to the local regulatory agency. They are available to the local regulators for enforcement purposes. The analogy I use is having a continuous speed monitor in one's automobile to measure one's speed every few seconds. As one drives through Dublin city every time one goes over the 30 km/h speed limit by 1 km/h, one gets an e-mail violation notice and a fine.

They are looking at that technology.

Mr. Scott Whitney

We are probably the most regulated industry in the energy business, apart from the nuclear industry. We really take compliance seriously. We need to reach 100% compliance and hope to do that. Mr. Paul Gilman is our chief sustainability officer and has overall responsibility for our ongoing environmental and health and safety compliance record, and for improving that record. He joined our company just over a year ago. He was a high level official at the US Environmental Protection Agency and we have created a whole department in this area within the past year or so. We spend millions of euro a year in our efforts to improve and reach 100% compliance.

The nature of the fines encompassed failure to report air quality violations and excessive emissions. What has Mr. Whitney to say to people in Dublin who may be worried, having read about or heard of this? Whatever about the technology, is it not a case of somebody not bothering to report such infringements? Can Mr. Whitney offer some words of comfort to people who await reassurance in this regard?

Mr. Malcolm Chilton

On that particular issue, many of these reports come from the Internet and one must be careful what one believes from such sources. However, the non-reporting fine was a mistake by the regulator who subsequently apologised. That was never reported.

Covanta got its money back.

Mr. Malcolm Chilton

I do not believe it was handed over in the first place.

Will there be a difference in the charge for waste from the private waste provider as against Dublin City Council? There has been a good deal of reference to Government policy, and I would like it clarified whether such policy determined or interfered with the site selection. Did the Government determine the size of the incinerator?

Mr. Scott Whitney

As far as the gate fee per tonne is concerned, the intention under the contract was that Dublin City Council would receive a preferential rate in return for sponsoring and partially in return for committing to supply 320,000 tonnes per year to the facility. There is certainly a possibility that different rates could be charged to the various folks who bring waste.

That has not been decided yet.

Mr. Scott Whitney

It has not been decided yet. That will depend on the market and Government waste policy at the time as well as a number of issues that still have to be determined.

Mr. John Tierney

Government policy would not have determined the particular site. That comes from many considerations, which were dealt with in the site selection study. Government and EU policy would have been factors in the size of the facility because of diversion targets and so on and because of the targets set in the Government waste management plan.

Did the plan indicate that there should be just one location when there could easily have been two smaller facilities?

Mr. John Tierney

I believe the Chairman will appreciate the difficulty in providing material for one location without having to source more. It was decided to have one location.

I have questions on three separate areas. One is the overall project cost, and the second is on the nature of the contract between Covanta and Dublin City Council, with particular emphasis on the put or pay clause and the relevant waste statistics that informed that contract. Finally, I want to ask about the findings in the ESRI report.

Deputy Andrews has already mentioned that €120 million of public money has been spent on this project to date. Mr. Tierney did not confirm or deny that cost. In his presentation, he outlined costs of €63 million, €34 million of which has been spent on site acquisition or moving costs, something curiously known as client representation costs of €25.5 million, and preparatory works for district heating of €3.5 million. There is a significant difference between the figure of €63 million reported here and the €120 million that has already been publicly reported. Mr. Tierney states that the balance of site acquisition has yet to be determined through the CPO process, so I am presuming that most of that money will be accounted for then. There have been reports that the full site acquisition cost is in the region of €70 million, which would leave ancillary costs — planning process and consultancy fees — of around €50 million.

Mr. Tierney reported to Dublin City Council that the cost of consultants to date has been €22 million. I would be interested to know to which consultants that money has gone. The only publicly recorded contract for consultancy in respect of this work is the 2001 contract the council undertook with RPS, which cost €8 million. Why has this subsequently risen to €22 million? The €120 million that has been spent to date is a very telling sum because there is no visual impact of spending that money. It is equivalent to twice the amount of money spent on electronic voting machines and is equivalent to the amount of money the HSE has wasted on the PPARS computer system. That scale of public spending requires more answers than have been forthcoming to date.

To what extent has there been Government approval for these costs? To what extent is the Government aware of them? Is sanction sought from the Government for these costs? The project has been described as a value for money project by the National Development Finance Agency. Is it not true that the NDFA is excluded from considering site and bid costs for public private partnerships? If those costs have come to €120 million to date, does that not undermine the whole question of value for money in this project?

Mr. John Tierney

I have given the Senator the figures to date and I explained them to Deputy Andrews. The figure of €120 million has been described as a worst case scenario. We have advised the committee of the expenditure to date. If the Senator requires a further breakdown of the €25 million, it can be provided to him in detail. There is still an outcome to a CPO and we have put in a worst case scenario for that because it may have to go to arbitration.

In terms of the money that has been spent and may still be spent, it highlights the difficulty of trying to provide a project like this in an Irish city, having regard to the processes through which we have to go. Whatever we pay for the land is based upon the value of the land at the time. If it is done through a CPO, it must be based on the valuation at the date of the notice to treat. That is the law.

It is not a problem to provide the breakdown of the client representation costs, and I mentioned the different expertise involved that is needed to get through the required statutory processes that are required in this project. People can be assured that the best expertise has been used before it is built. Decisions on site acquisition are taken as an executive function of Dublin City Council management because that is the mechanism in law for dealing with site acquisition.

We would have certainly included figures in respect of land and bid costs for the public sector benchmark. The key figure that demonstrates the value for money is what was subsequently bid as part of the contract for Gate 3, and that will be value for money.

Is Mr. Tierney saying that the cost may be €70 million for land acquisition? How many landowners are involved in that process? The land has been sought through the CPO process, but how much land has been through direct sale? How much has been paid to date?

Mr. John Tierney

There are three main landowners and businesses involved. I can get the exact breakdown for the Senator. I cannot give him the final figure on the land until it is determined through the final process. I have given him the figures on the client representation costs, which includes everything from planning fees, legal fees, stakeholder consultation, environmental issues and so on. I have given him the cost to date of €3.5 million for the advanced works on district heating. The balance of that is what will be paid for land.

I would like to move on to the issue of the contract between Covanta and Dublin City Council, especially the so-called put or pay clause. Mr. Tierney spoke in his presentation about being in line with Government policy. Dublin City Council cannot have been unaware that during the general election campaign of 2007, public reaction to the council's proposal was a live political issue and that the result of the general election, while uncertain, was very likely to bring about a change in the composition of the Government. This would at the very least bring about a re-examination of the policy of waste management. I would be surprised to hear Mr. Tierney deny that. The council signed a contract three days before the general election. Why would Mr. Tierney do that in the middle of a campaign when the issue was live, public and controversial?

A programme for Government was produced three weeks later that explicitly stated the Government's intention not to have contracts with a put or pay clause in them. However, the council had already signed a contract. Why is that contract not public? Has it been made public either to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or to the Minister? If not, why not? Given the scale of public money that is being spent on this contract, why are details of that nature and the expenditure of public money not being made more publicly available?

Mr. Tierney gave very spurious statistics in respect of the amount of waste available for the put or pay clause and the council's ability to meet the 320,000 tonne requirement. At the moment, the council is only able to collect 280,000 tonnes through its own resources. As there are private operators in the market, the council has no way of knowing how that market will go in the future, whether their market share will improve and whether the amount of material available to the council will decrease. If an incinerator were in place today and the council had to invoke the put or pay clause, it would be paying €4 million per annum of public money, and that is disregarding the recycling targets that exist in the Dublin regional waste management plan. The four local authorities in Dublin have a recycling target that is 25% of the volume. At the moment, they are reaching half of that level. The more successful the local authorities are in achieving that target, the less material available for this incinerator and the more the cost will be to the taxpayer. That is in direct contravention of Government policy.

What concerns does Mr. Whitney have about the fact that this contract may be appealed owing to constraints of trade or because it constitutes a state aid under EU rules? Where would Mr. Whitney see the status of that contract if such findings were to be made available? Going back to Mr. Tierney, he indicated in his presentation that the council has had legal advice throughout this process, yet it lost the one legal case it has had to fight in regard to private waste contractors. There was a damning judgment in the case which stated both the council and its consultants had been involved in a massaging of reports and that there had been unacceptable influence in the process supposedly carried out in the public interest. This was stated by a member of the Judiciary in a court case that Dublin City Council had lost. Despite this, we have had statements from the council's own consultants stating the judge was entirely wrong in his judgment. As someone who represents a State body — an arm of local government — does Mr. Tierney find it acceptable that one arm of the State, the Judiciary and the courts system, is questioned in this way?

With regard to Covanta and the double standards and misleading signals evident here, the Dublin local authorities, Dublin City Council in particular, have been very proactive in preventing competing incinerator projects within the same municipal area. There was a proposal in Rathcoole in respect of which the consultants argued that the environmental standards that applied in a plant in Massachusetts, the SEMASS plant, would have been the standards that would have applied in Rathcoole had the plant gone ahead. The SEMASS plant in Massachusetts was operated by Covanta at the time. I find it inconceivable that in our planning process arguments are being made on behalf of a supposed partner about its safety and environmental record.

The last point against Covanta which contradicts the two sets of evidence we have heard today is that a tendering process has begun in which I understand Covanta has applied to take waste from the south east. This indicates there is already, before any plant is built or becomes operational, a lack of confidence that the figure of 320,000 tonnes can be met from the greater Dublin region and that the intention is, to justify the plant economically and make it viable, to source waste elsewhere on this island. I would like confirmation as to whether Covanta has entered into that tendering process.

Mr. John Tierney

The Senator made comments about what had happened in the last general election. The fact is we have been locked into this process since September 2005, the project agreement was finally signed in May 2007, the letter of intent issued on 20 June 2007 and the contract was signed on 4 September 2007. We have to proceed on the basis of the actions we took up to that date. A programme for Government was put in place subsequent to some of these actions. It was mentioned this morning that I had been aware in June of the proposed cap on incineration because it had been included in the programme for Government. However, it was not in the programme for Government and was not brought forward until long after the decision to enter into the contract had been made. Therefore, I stand over the correctness of the procedure we went through from 2001 until the contract was signed in 2007. The Senator is suggesting, in effect, that the EPA and the ESRI are producing spurious statistics. We have provided a copy of the contract for the Minister.

Dublin City Council has made no comment on the court case to date except to say the findings are being analysed and that we will make a decision on whether we will appeal the decision post the final decision of the court to be given on either 12 or 15 February — I am not sure of the date. The issue raised by the Senator concerns the appearance of a member of RPS on the "Prime Time" programme, on which that person gave a view on the comment made in the judgment on the report. The person concerned made that comment on the basis of the RPS position. As to whether we will appeal, that decision will be taken following the giving of the final decision of the court. I will not comment further on the court case until that time.

Mr. Tierney does not even have an opinion on whether the massaging of reports amounted to unacceptable influence in a process supposedly carried out in the public interest.

Mr. John Tierney

RPS will answer the question of whether it considers its reports were massaged.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

Our reports were not massaged by us, nor would we have clients massage them. Our reputation is very well known in that regard. There has been a misinterpretation of the court judgment. If one examines the wording closely, one will see that the judge was referring to a number of reports, not specifically ours, but we got caught up in the language used because our reports were before the court also. What happened happens to all draft reports to clients. They are submitted beforehand in draft form but neither fact nor opinion was altered in the case of Dublin City Council. Anyone considering the reports could only come to that conclusion.

Mr. John Tierney

Senator Boyle referred to the "put or pay" clause, an issue I covered in my statement. This is standard in the industry. As Covanta has pointed out, we have lowered the bar for ourselves more than it has been lowered in other jurisdictions.

On the point on state aid, if this is state aid, every PPP in this and other European countries is in trouble. We believe there is no basis on which to win in that case.

Mr. Tierney has not answered the question on the fact that the recycling rate is only half what it should be and that if the council is to attain the required rate, there will be even less material available for the incinerator and a greater cost liability.

Mr. John Tierney

I made this point earlier. We have committed to attaining the recycling rates set out in the plan. The level of performance demonstrates how we are progressing. It was 26% in 2003, 40% in 2006, 41% in 2007 and 41% in 2008, with a target figure of 45% in 2010. There is no let-up on recycling. I have personally given a commitment to the Minister that there will be no let-up on my watch. When I was in Galway, we managed to attain a figure of 52% for domestic waste, the highest rate in the country. I have given that commitment.

I have explained in the submission the manner in which the commitment on the figure of 320,000 tonnes operates. We have been very careful in the contract to protect the city council as much as possible in that regard. If we do not provide the waste, it does not automatically mean the city council will be subject to an automatic payment. In my submission I note that accepting waste at the Dublin waste to energy plant will have to be in accordance with Irish and EU policy. Currently, the proposed incinerator at Poolbeg is at the highest point of the hierarchy in the Dublin region.

There were questions for Covanta. I had one other set of questions about the contract.

Mr. Scott Whitney

On the question of competition, we are very confident, given the structure of the contract, that it will withstand scrutiny in any examination relative to competition law.

Regarding procurement in the south east, it is up to the authority in that region to determine whether and when it is appropriate to publicise who is participating in its procurement. In addition to the 320,000 tonnes Dublin City Council is obligated to send to the facility under certain conditions, there is capacity for another 280,000 tonnes which both we and the council would like to fill. It would be irresponsible of us not to monitor the market and look for opportunities to obtain that fuel stream. We will continue to do so through various means in and around the greater Dublin region.

I appreciate Mr. Whitney's honesty in that response. Many will be surprised to learn that Covanta intends to go to the rest of the country to seek additional waste.

In regard to the environmental standards of plants, I understand there are issues regarding Covanta's management of a plant in Massachusetts. That was used as an argument to prevent competition in this country.

Mr. Scott Whitney

I am not sure I am aware of the precise scenario to which the Senator is referring.

A SEMASS plant managed by Covanta in Massachusetts was cited as a bad example of environmental practice.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

I may be able to answer that question since it was I who went to Rathcoole on behalf of South Dublin County Council. The proposal before An Bord Pleanála did not comply with either the county development plan or the Dublin waste management plan. The developer who was proposing to build in Rathcoole was the same developer who had designed and built the SEMASS plant in Massachusetts which he subsequently sold to Covanta.

Mr. Scott Whitney

Only a few years ago, after it had been operating for several years, we took over operation of that facility. We would not design or construct a facility of that technical nature of our own volition. It is not the best technology available but it processes waste on a continuous basis in an environmentally compliant manner. As such, we intend to operate the facility as best we can for the client and the communities within that region for as long as we are charged with operating it.

I have several questions about the release today of an ESRI report which seems to contain several erroneous assumptions. The people who compiled it on behalf of the ESRI indicate that, in the case of the incinerator at Poolbeg, the carbon dioxide costs do not have to be taken into account, even though incineration is a form of combustion and creates CO2, because of the existence of the European Union's emissions trading scheme. Is Dublin City Council aware that the waste sector is not included in that scheme? That is a significant factor in calculating the overall cost.

Likewise, the assumption is made in the report that other forms of emissions that result from the combustion process such as nitric oxides and sulphur oxides will not be an issue because a licence has been granted by the Environmental Protection Agency. As I recall, the terminology used is that "externalities resulting from the remaining issues are zero". There is a difference between a licence existing and controlling emissions and saying there are no such emissions. That is another major error in the report.

Going back to the first error, in terms of putting a price on CO2 emissions alone, while the report indicates an incineration levy should reflect a cost of €5 per tonne from 2015 onwards, the actual cost is €31 per tonne. This totally undermines the report and entirely undermines the economics of the project. It demands an appropriate response in the light of the inappropriate way in which the information was made available today.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

I will deal with that issue. We only received this information at lunchtime and must consult the ESRI. However, I would be very surprised if it has made errors of the type referred to by the Senator.

Will Mr. Rudden clarify that issue in writing for the committee when he has had an opportunity to examine it?

Mr. P. J. Rudden

Yes.

Mr. John Tierney

I understand the Senator's concerns. We asked whether the committee wished to invite representatives of the ESRI to today's meeting but were told only ourselves and delegates from Covanta would be in attendance. We offered that facility.

Yes; I will bear that in mind. In the meantime, we would appreciate if that matter might be clarified.

We can invite representatives of the ESRI next week or the week after.

The business for next week has already been ordered. We will discuss how we should proceed at the end of the meeting.

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to address the committee, even though I am not a member. I welcome Mr. Tierney and his team from Dublin City Council and Mr. Whitney and his colleagues from Covanta. I thank them for their presentations and answering the questions put to them. However, I am not filled with confidence as a result of much of what I have heard.

The point raised by Senator Boyle on the tendering process in the south east is very important. It was my understanding, as a former member of Dublin City Council and as somebody who has been following the project closely, that this was to be a waste treatment facility or an incinerator waste to energy project or a thermal heat treatment facility — whatever one wants to call it — for the Dublin region. The assurances I have received from city management over a long period bear this out. However, we have had an important revelation today before this committee in learning that Covanta has not ruled out importing waste to the facility.

On the face of it, I accept Mr. Tierney's contention that, unless it is facilitated or enabled via legislation, such activity will not be possible, but we must have clarification of this. I am not sure the importation of waste to the facility is regulated either by legislation or otherwise and, as such, whether the importation of waste is excluded. Moreover, Covanta which will operate this incinerator if it goes ahead is already tendering to deal with waste in the south-east region. Will Mr. Whitney clarify, as is my understanding, that Covanta does not plan to build a new incinerator in the south east? In other words, it is, apparently, proposing to import waste through the city of Dublin and bring it to the facility at Poolbeg. As a representative of Dublin South-East, that is something I will not accept. It is not the understanding we had when the project was initiated.

Other members have referred to some of the inconsistencies in the data regarding the household waste being produced in the Dublin region. In 2005 RPS, on behalf of Dublin City Council, indicated that 488,345 tonnes of household waste was being produced in the Dublin region. However, in its recent review of the waste management plan for the Dublin region, it states 245,117 tonnes of waste is being produced, a drop of almost 50%. This reduction is welcome, as it suggests recycling and other forms of waste treatment have taken off in the city and region. However, it begs the question — we have not yet receoved a lucid answer to this question — that if the rate of production of household waste has fallen so dramatically in a three-year period, why is there a need to increase the capacity of the incinerator at Poolbeg from the original projected figure of 400,000 tonnes to 600,000 tonnes? The planning officer for An Bord Pleanála who conducted all of the investigations and made recommendations to the board after the oral hearing on the proposed incinerator project recommended a reduced capacity. He indicated there was no demand in the Dublin region for a facility with a capacity of 600,000 tonnes, but the board, surprisingly and interestingly, went against the recommendation of its own officer. Will Mr. Tierney or one of his colleagues comment on this aspect?

I have not had an opportunity to read all the detailed ESRI report released today but I have read summaries and press statements. The ESRI is a body which receives significant State funding and, in this instance, was carrying out an exercise on behalf of another body, Dublin City Council, which is also in receipt of significant State funding. While I do not imply anything, there certainly is a joint objective when one such body commissions another such body to produce a report of this nature.

The waste growth projections in the ESRI report simply do not compute. They do not match the reality of what has been happening in the Dublin region in the past five years according to Dublin City Council's own statistics. I simply do not understand how a growth rate of 4% for waste in the Dublin region can be projected when it was a fraction of that during the Celtic tiger years. Since then, the rate of recycling has increased, more waste treatment is carried out and the economy is not growing. Moreover, it is not projected that it will ever again grow at the rates experienced over the past 15 years. I seek a response in this regard from either Dublin City Council or from Covanta. Some statistics have been suggested to me to the effect that were the projections regarding a 4% increase in the production of domestic waste correct, the Dublin region would be expected to have a population of 15 million and 50 million people by 2025 and 2037, respectively. I seek a response from the witnesses in this regard.

I have a specific question to ask of the city manager regarding another issue pertaining to the site for the proposed incinerator on the Poolbeg Peninsula that is subject to a compulsory purchase order. In common with all the area's representatives and most of its residents, I am aware of proposals to extend and expand the sewage treatment plant. I understand that at its current operational capacity, the sewage treatment plant is not capable of dealing with the sewage treatment demands for the Dublin region. Although I am open to correction, I believe the city council has advertised in the Official Journal of the European Union its intention to expand the facility within the past 12 months. If this is the case, on what site will the sewage treatment plant be extended? Where is the space that has been identified and acquired by Dublin City Council to extend the sewage treatment facility? Might there be a conflict in that it may be necessary to use the site that has been earmarked for the incinerator for the sewage treatment plant expansion proposed by Dublin City Council?

I join with Senator Boyle in pointing to the McKechnie judgment in the High Court before Christmas. Unfortunately, I am not surprised, to put it mildly, but certainly am highly alarmed that a learned High Court judge would deem figures, statistics and evidence put forward by Dublin City Council to amount to a massaging of figures. He went on to state that the massaging of reports was "a strong indicator ... of unacceptable influence in the process supposedly carried out in the public interest". On that basis alone, I ask the city manager how the people of Ringsend, Irishtown, Sandymount and the wider Dublin area or that area's elected representatives can have confidence in this process.

Moreover, on the basis of the experience since 2003 of the utterly shambolic sewage treatment plant project, how can one have confidence in the ability of Dublin City Council to engage in a sophisticated public private partnership that can serve the needs of the people of Dublin? It is very difficult for me to have confidence in this regard given my experience of the sewage treatment plant. While a member of Dublin City Council, I asked to receive a copy of the contract between the ABA consortium and Dublin City Council pertaining to that facility. Although I thought I would be so entitled as an elected representative and member of the city council, I was refused and was told it was commercially sensitive. It was quite extraordinary that an elected member of Dublin City Council was not allowed to see the contract. Will councillors, as the effective board of directors of the city council, be entitled to scrutinise this contract? Will the city manager provide this joint committee and its members an opportunity to scrutinise that contract? It was extremely disappointing to see what happened with regard to the sewage treatment plant. The company did not perform and in objective terms was in breach of contract for non-performance. Nevertheless, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, sanctioned a payment of €38 million of taxpayers' money by Dublin City Council to that private company. I must again ask the city manager how one can have any confidence in the ability of Dublin City Council to deliver for the people of Dublin. While I could go on, I will move on.

I will turn to the issue of Government policy to which Deputy Hogan has already alluded. I am pleased to note that towards the end of his statement to the joint committee, the Dublin city manager put on record that the incinerator as proposed at Poolbeg "is compliant with Government policy" because listening to Senator Boyle, one might be forgiven for thinking otherwise. I wish to put on record that in response to an Adjournment matter I raised at least six months ago, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, stated his intention to appoint a responsible person to investigate this agreement between Dublin City Council and Covanta. Six months later however, his response to today's ESRI report still talks about appointing a responsible person to investigate the contract between Dublin City Council and Covanta. The clear fact on which I believe members can agree is that there has been no change in Government policy in respect of incineration, which is lamentable. There was a great opportunity to do so immediately after the general election when a new programme for Government was negotiated. However, as the city manager correctly stated, that did not happen. Similarly, this did not happen as part of the review of the programme for Government and consequently, there has been no change in Government policy in respect of the incinerator. This does not mean the project is economically viable and I do not believe it is.

One of the witnesses, I am unsure who, mentioned Copenhagen. I visited the incinerator there with a delegation from Dublin City Council, which also visited a facility in Malmo. The incinerator in Copenhagen was run by Elsam AS, which was the previous company selected for this project and in which I believe Covanta is the major shareholder or has taken over. Essentially, Covanta is the same company as Elsam AS. First, I note the operation of that incinerator was completely different. The organisation was not based on an arrangement among four regional authorities whereby one took landfill, another took an incinerator, a third took green waste and so on. Everything was contained in a single facility and I believe we are making a grave mistake in this regard. While it is politically expedient and I accept that politicians are to blame, it is completely farcical to have an incinerator in one part of the city, a green waste facility in another and brown waste in a third, with trucks going from one to the other, dividing waste and bringing it here, there and everywhere. We need a single facility to deal with incineration. While I have no doubt that a 600,000 tonne incinerator is not required, we need a co-ordinated and coherent approach to waste management that is lacking at present.

My second point regarding the facility in Copenhagen is that its management was clear on one point that I believe to be in direct contradiction of what has been stated here regarding how the imperative or incentive for recycling would be affected by this incinerator. Were members to accept what has been stated today, they would be led to believe it would have no impact on the imperative or incentive for recycling and waste reduction in the city. However, the experience in Copenhagen was different and when I visited the incinerator there, its management made it clear that there was a huge conflict between the city municipality, that is, the council and the private company that was operating the facility. The conflict arose because the private company had a commercial interest in filling up the facility and burning as much waste as possible. The city had a different priority, so the two priorities were not compatible. I am concerned that the same problem will emerge for Dublin City Council because of the put-for-pay clause. If it does, it would be unfortunate.

On community gain, I accept that the council intends to advertise for committee members to find people who can be appointed to allocate funds and so on, but does it plan on targeting the area's individuals and community groups through advertising or via groups currently dealing with the council or would there be another way for people to avail of that community gain?

Given the comments of Covanta and the city manager, I am neither encouraged nor confident. What we have been told about the city's projected waste creation and the reality clearly diverges from the figures previously provided by Dublin City Council. I hope the council can explain these inconsistencies, but I am not sure that it can. I would be interested in hearing its response.

Mr. John Tierney

The Deputy has raised a number of issues. I highlight the point that Irish and European law must be accorded with when waste is taken to the facility. I will ask Mr. Rudden to respond to the Deputy's detailed figures on household waste. She raised the question of the planning board's decision almost as though the overruling of an inspector is an unusual occurrence. It is not. There are two separate functions. The board must take a view that includes the inspector's report and all other submissions made and reach a final decision. It is not uncommon for inspectors' reports to be overruled.

I cannot accept the Deputy's comments regarding the ESRI report. While she stated that she was making no implication, she referred to joint objectives and so on. If she examined the terms of reference we supplied and the report, she would see that the ESRI produced the latter as an independent body. She claimed the projections on waste growth do not add up, but the ESRI might get the opportunity to answer that charge. The EPA and so on were also involved, but Mr. Rudden will cover the matter in more detail.

Regarding the site and the CPO, the sewage treatment plant and incineration facilities are separate matters. The waste water treatment plant should have been built larger in the first place. As I pointed out in my submission, that we did not provide facilities of sufficient size to cater for future growth has presented considerable difficulties. This was demonstrated in the case of the waste water treatment plant, but we are now being criticised for providing a plant that we have deemed to be the appropriate size.

Mr. Rudden and I have addressed the McKechnie judgment. It dealt primarily with one aspect and, consequently, the competition situation in the market remains as opposed to competition for the market. On the generalities of the case, I would point out that competition for the market has been advocated by the ESRI, Eunomia, the international review and the OECD. The fact that competition for the market was being sought is a European norm. How the subsequent contracting is organised is a separate matter. Eunomia could only find two European countries that did not follow the norm, those being, Poland and Kosovo.

The Deputy welcomed the matter of the responsible person. However, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, have been involved in every step of putting the contract in place. Regarding the Deputy's comments on Copenhagen——

No. I welcomed Mr. Tierney's acknowledgement that Government policy has not changed, yet I lamented the fact that the Minister made his announcement six months ago but has done nothing about it.

Mr. John Tierney

I apologise. The Deputy mentioned Copenhagen. Perhaps Mr. Rudden will deal with that matter, as he has more detailed knowledge of the Danish situation. Vienna, for example, has a number of stand-alone waste-to-energy facilities, including in the middle of the city. Gradually, Vienna has developed district heating for 250,000 homes, a significant payback to the city in terms of an independent energy resource. Mr. Lyons addressed the question of community gain.

Mr. Séamus Lyons

I will come in on two questions raised by Deputy Creighton. She referred to an increase in the size of the waste water treatment plant, but it is actually the plant's capacity that is due to be increased using more advanced technology to meet new standards and so on. As Mr. Tierney mentioned, the two sites are separate and there is no question of an overlap.

The Deputy's second issue is community gain, which I mentioned. There will be two processes, the first being setting up the board or choosing the individuals who will make up the board and who will ultimately make decisions. We will place an advertisement in the newspaper inviting all and sundry to apply to be included in this process. We will then take reports to the south east area committee and councillors will make decisions as to which people should be selected. When the board is up and running and must make decisions, it will take proposed projects from any groups within the locality that believe they should be funded or part funded in delivering whatever it is they want to deliver. The criteria by which they will be assessed will be set down in the riding instructions and, as time goes on, they will be funded or part funded from the fund. The two processes will be separate. The first will deal with the selection of people to sit on the board and the second with the selection of projects to fund or part fund.

Mr. John Tierney

Deputy Creighton asked about the contract, but I must take legal advice before I can release it. In any particular situation, commercial sensitivities are associated with contracts of this nature.

I have two follow-up questions, with the Chairman's indulgence.

With all due respect, the format of this meeting has discriminated against the people left until the end despite being full members of the committee. This matter of back and forth and no time limits being set on people asking questions is not the right way in which to organise a meeting. The Dáil has time limits and limits on how often people can speak. I am not referring to Deputy Creighton, as others have spoken for longer than her, but the situation has got out of order.

It is not out of order and I am trying not to stop anyone.

It is probably unfair on those who contribute later, but I did not want to cut anyone's contribution short. I could have given everyone a limit.

There should be a time limit and people who need to speak again should only do so if there is time.

I ask Deputy Creighton to conclude as soon as possible.

I seek a clarification, with the Chairman's indulgence. Will Mr. Tierney confirm that there will be no requirement for an expansion of the site for the sewage treatment plant? Is that the conclusion that I can draw? Is it a question of the capacity and not the site?

Mr. John Tierney

I cannot say that absolutely, but the Deputy's question was on whether the site would infringe on the other site. The answer is "No".

I apologise to Deputy Tuffy for the long wait.

I have a few questions and hope that some of them have not been answered already. I have tried to adjust my questions as we went along. I seek clarification on a number of matters.

When the contract was signed in May 2007, was it legally binding on the council at that stage or at a later stage? Can any changes be made after May 2007? What about plans for the roll-out of brown bins? Not everywhere in Dublin has a brown bin yet. How many tonnes of waste will be collected in brown bins? What will happen to that waste and will any of it be incinerated?

Covanta can source waste from markets, as can other operators. Following the recent court case, waste can be sourced from other waste providers. Can some of this waste be recycled or are there any rules against that? The city manager referred to examining the worst case scenario and working out the figures from that. Has the city manager worked out what penalties he must pay under the contract for the next few years? I presume he has worked out an amount to be paid on penalties if he has worked from the worst case scenario.

The city manager estimated that he must pay some of the €120 million in the worst case scenario. How much of that is an estimate? Will the money be paid irrespective of whether the project goes ahead and if it is the same size? What role did Dublin City Council play in the international review? What if the Minister was to ask the ESRI to undertake a report and the results were different? I wonder about the ESRI because it is a public body but that was a rhetorical question in a way.

Representatives of Covanta suggest it will be able to produce electricity. When do they expect the full amount will be produced? This plan was prepared on the basis that economic growth would continue. It still seems predicated on the basis of a return to economic growth. The ESRI has produced a similar report. The ESRI predicted economic growth for a long time and it did not predict the recession. Is the idea that we can go back to the way we were not too optimistic?

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. Lyons will deal with the issue of brown bins. The court case question concerned whether recycled waste would go to the facility.

I was asking whether Covanta can source waste to make up the difference, to bring it up to 320,000 tonnes.

Mr. John Tierney

No. It will be residual waste that will go to the facility.

Can it be guaranteed that no recyclable waste will be burned at the facility?

Mr. John Tierney

That is correct.

I am sure that is included in the licence.

Does that cover organic waste?

Mr. John Tierney

Organic waste is dealt with separately. We take that out through the brown bin system and deal with it through biological treatment.

The idea is to roll out the brown bins. The council is not leaving much space for growth of recyclable waste and so on if the capacity of this is up to 600,000 tonnes and at the moment approximately 700,000 tonnes is going to landfill.

Mr. John Tierney

I have already stated that we are committed to maximising recycling rates.

Will no recyclable or organic waste be burned? Can that be guaranteed?

Mr. John Tierney

The only waste that can be treated is residual waste, in other words, waste that is subject to recycling. In case there is any misinterpretation, if organic waste gets into the waste stream of the black bin, for example, we cannot say it will not be treated in the facility. We are trying to take the maximum amount possible of that out through the roll-out of brown bins.

If Covanta gets waste on the market, is it possible that some of that waste will be recyclable or organic waste?

Mr. John Tierney

Whether the waste comes from Dublin City Council or from the market, it must be treated in the same fashion. On the figures paid to date, I have pointed out the worst case scenarios in this regard. Deputy Tuffy referred to worst case scenarios in regard to payment provisions. That is easily calculated across figures from zero to 600,000 tonnes. We are confident we have appropriate measures built into this in respect of the viability of the project for Dublin City Council.

Is Mr. Tierney saying he will never pay penalties?

Mr. John Tierney

I cannot say that.

Surely Mr. Tierney can put an estimate on how much he will have to pay.

Mr. John Tierney

How can I put an estimate on that now? I can provide Deputy Tuffy with our best projection but the future must play itself out. We have based our decision on the best possible projections.

Is Mr. Tierney saying he will not pay any penalties?

Mr. John Tierney

That was considered as part of the project evolution and due diligence at particular times in drawing up the contract.

What about now, when there is a recession? Have calculations been done?

Mr. John Tierney

The point made consistently this afternoon is that if we are to base our projections on last year, this year or the next three years, this is a 25 year project and will continue beyond that.

However, Mr. Tierney must budget every year for how much he will spend. The Government has budgeted for how much it must pay if it does not reach carbon emissions targets. Does Mr. Tierney have to provide for how much he might have to pay in penalties each year?

Mr. John Tierney

That is done on the basis of a prediction from the previous year to the following year. Our estimates are done on annual budgeting. Equally, I pointed out that we estimate electricity will come on board in 2014.

Mr. Scott Whitney

Deputy Tuffy asked when the facility will produce the full amount of electricity. Towards the end of the three-year construction period we will go into what is called the start-up phase. It is a comprehensive phase of the construction and implementation of the project and takes several months. We will start each of the three individual processing trains one at a time and test them out. We will probably produce the full amount of electricity slightly before the end of the three-year construction period. We expect to produce close to the full amount for the entire operating life of the facility.

Mr. John Tierney

Regarding the point about the international review and the Dublin City Council role, there was a representative of the County and City Managers Association on the steering group for the international review. Reading the three submissions by the County and City Managers Association to the international review, it is fair to say that the views of the County and City Managers Association were not taken on board.

What about the contract?

Mr. Séamus Lyons

I will return to Deputy Tuffy's question on brown bins. These have been rolled out in Dublin City Council areas and Fingal but not in south County Dublin or Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Presentation rates have been relatively light to date but there must be an education process as part of the continued roll-out to make people aware of how they can be used. Some people have expressed concern that they do not want to use the bins because of possible smells. We try to get over that to increase the amount presented in brown bins. Anything presented in brown bins goes through a particular stream and goes nowhere near the waste to energy plant. Similarly, there is a separate plant, constructed and opened by Dublin local authorities in Ballymount, to process recyclable materials from green bins. There are separate streams for different streams of waste.

Was the contract legally binding in May 2007?

Mr. John Tierney

As I explained earlier, the project agreement was signed off in September 2005 but because of the changes in structures in the companies, it was finally signed off in May 2007. A letter of intent issued in June 2007 and the contract was signed on 4 September 2007. Any changes to the contract subsequent to that would have implications.

After September?

Mr. John Tierney

Given the way the project agreement was constructed, any departure from it at that stage potentially could have caused issues.

It was not legally binding until September.

Mr. John Tierney

The Deputy will probably get different legal interpretations of that but certainly the final part of the process was done on 4 September 2007 and we would argue that we were very much tied into the process as far back as 2005.

Mr. Scott Whitney

The Deputy expressed concern about what the amount of future waste growth and economic growth might be in the greater Dublin region. In the short term, internationally and here in the greater Dublin region, we have seen that economic cycles can be very cyclical. We will be a partner of Dublin City Council for 25 years or longer and we fully expect that over that 25-year cycle there will be many ups and downs in the economy and probably in waste growth also because, as we all know, waste growth tends to follow economic cycles.

With regard to recyclables, we fully embrace the EU waste hierarchy and we have no desire to combust material that can be handled via recycling or any other process higher on the waste hierarchy. We have no intention of importing waste from outside the country. The EU landfill directive has to be met by Ireland as a country and not just by the greater Dublin region. This facility has been labelled a giant facility. Covanta has developed and constructed 21 facilities that range from 200,000 tonnes per year to 1 million tonnes per year and this facility is in the middle of that size range. It is appropriately sized relative to the population in the greater Dublin area.

I appreciate it has been a long session and I will try to be as brief as possible. Many of my questions have already been answered and I will not go over them again. It is important that we tease out the facts and that the committee hears the facts of the situation. I welcome the delegation and it is good that the witnesses are presenting the facts as they see them to the committee.

Many of the arguments I heard today on the capacity of landfills and the capacity, size and location of incinerators I also heard ten years ago in the council chamber in Waterford, and they were also heard in council chambers throughout Ireland. At that time there was much opposition to them. I can clearly recall the Government implementing policy in 2001 that took powers from the democratically elected members — the councillors of those local authorities — and gave them to the executives of those local authorities. This resulted in the regional waste management plans that are in place at present. Since becoming a Senator I have raised at this committee and at other fora the up-to-date situation of the regional waste management plans. All Dublin City Council is doing is acting on and implementing a Government policy which has been in place for many years, whether we like it or not. It is very difficult for me as an Opposition Member to listen to Government party Members now opposing this policy of which they have been part for more than a decade. That is what is going on.

That policy was put in place by the Labour Party and Fine Gael. If Senator Coffey wants to score political points——

It is a bit rich for Government committee members, such as Deputy Chris Andrews, at this very late stage of the process——

I have been in the process from the start.

——to try to oppose this infrastructure that they as a Government——

The Labour Party and Fine Gael have now washed their hands of this. Those parties had an involvement from the very start.

Senator Coffey has the floor.

——imposed on the people in 2001. The record has been spelled out to many committee members. It is a pity Deputy Chris Andrews and other members of the Government who are now opposing it so vociferously did not stand up and be counted at that early stage.

What we have heard today from the delegation provides an exercise for the committee to get clarity on the up-to-date situation of the various regional waste management plans. It is related to what we heard today on how to manage the waste streams from those regions. Today, we heard that possibly some of those waste streams will end up in the Poolbeg incinerator. It is important we get some clarity and establish where exactly they lie. Are the other regions engaged in contracts? There is much manufactured confusion about Government policy. As far as I am concerned, the Government's policy is quite clear: an incinerator was planned for every region in the country and the executives, which include people such as Mr. John Tierney and the other city and county managers, were given the task of designing regional waste management plans that included incinerators. They have been working on these for the past six, seven or eight years.

I listened carefully to Senator Boyle and his problem with the general election. The Green Party knew quite well with whom it was going into Government and the policies that were in place at the time. However, today we heard that the final contracts were signed in December 2007 when Deputy Gormley was the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Whether or not it is in his power to change it, to date he has done nothing to do so.

Will the Chairman clarify whether we can bring before the committee somebody representing the regions or a co-ordinating body, if it exists? The waste management plan for the country seems to be rudderless at present. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is at odds with Government policy even though he is part of the Cabinet. We have no clear strategy on the national waste management plan, which we need to be fair to taxpayers and local authorities. Those investing in waste management strategies could not have confidence given the carry on between the Government and the Minister. There is no co-ordination or direction and the committee can play a role to establish clearly where it lies and I ask the Chairman to facilitate this at a future debate.

Having stated all this, I have a number of questions for the delegation. Are agreements in place with the other regions on diverting waste streams from them to the Poolbeg incinerator under the present contract? Are they open to Covanta trying to secure those waste streams to help make the facility viable? These are simple questions and I would like simple answers. The target for completion of the project is 2013. Many obstacles and barriers have been overcome already but are any obstacles in the way at present of implementing Government policy and completing this project and facility?

Mr. John Tierney

The answer to the first question on whether agreements are in place is "No".

Is there co-ordination between regions?

Mr. John Tierney

There are separate regional plans——

I understand that.

Mr. John Tierney

——and in a number of areas individual local authorities have stand-alone plans.

Who co-ordinates all the regional waste management plans? Is there any co-ordination?

Mr. John Tierney

Technically, co-ordination would be done through the Department.

Is that co-ordination happening?

That is a matter the committee will address to the Department.

Excuse me, Chairman, but from the Dublin city manager's point of view is that happening?

Mr. John Tierney

The city and county managers made a submission in which we stated we would welcome increased emphasis on national co-ordination.

The managers would welcome it.

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

It is quite obvious from that statement that it is not happening at present.

Mr. John Tierney

We would welcome more co-ordination than the degree to which it is happening.

Mr. John Tierney

I already covered what was asked in the second part of the question. It will only be open to a facility, irrespective of where it is located, to take waste from outside its region if it is allowed to do so by the waste management strategy, the law at the particular time and the appropriate level of the hierarchy. I would be trying to predict the future if I described the obstacles that might get in the way.

The project is progressing as planned and there are no obvious obstacles at present.

Mr. John Tierney

We do not anticipate obstacles.

Mr. Scott Whitney

The lack of certainty in future waste policy is somewhat unsettling for everybody within the industry, including our friends from the Irish Waste Management Association.

I wish to correct a slight misstatement I made in my earlier response to Deputy Tuffy's question about electricity. I stated that electricity would be generated by each of three processing streams at the facility but there are in fact two such streams, each of which processes half the facility's capacity.

I sat through debate in Dublin City Council on this issue during my 12 years as a councillor. We had come up with a solution for which we were seeking a problem. From the outset senior council management and the consultants wanted to build an incinerator and as a result the other options were not considered sufficiently. The council has spawned a monster in throwing a 19th century solution at a 21st century problem and the people of Dublin will pay the price for the next 35 years. I was less than impressed with the consultative process or the options presented to councillors.

This will be one of the largest incinerators in Europe and it will require waste from the other regions notwithstanding waste management policies which advocate minimisation of waste transhipment across regional boundaries. My concern is that by gobbling everything up it will make it difficult to develop markets for recyclable materials or create the kind of jobs we want to see in that area. Several years ago, I spent a week studying waste management in Switzerland. I examined a number of incinerators in that country which burnt paper, plastic, PVC and all but the kitchen sink. It is very difficult to separate recyclable materials if one builds a facility that gobbles up hundreds of thousands of tonnes annually. By building this monster, we will stifle markets and jobs in waste reduction, reuse and recycling.

Waste minimisation should be at the heart of our waste strategy. That is the approach advocated by Europe and in our national plans. However, the implication of this huge incinerator is that the less waste we produce, the more we will pay. It is the exact opposite of minimisation. It is not "the polluter pays" principle, it is "the polluter makes a profit" principle. It is madness. The put-or-pay principle commits the people of Dublin to continually produce large amounts of waste. I am appalled this line is being pushed at us.

Mr. Tierney referred to competition when he wants to take control of the market. He wants to control everything that happens to every piece of waste in Dublin. He takes court actions against waste companies which try to avoid putting material into that damn thing in Ringsend. He is trying to create a monopoly on waste so that he can funnel it into the hellhole he wishes to create. He wants to contract out collection at his discretion. I would welcome his thoughts on the matter.

A clear change of policy was made in the 2007 programme for Government and last October's transformed programme. Cognisance has to be taken of these formal, published documents of Government.

In regard to the tendering process, RPS has acted as consultant to Dublin City Council for as long as I can remember. Perhaps Mr. Tierney can clarify the tendering process for the service and whether Mr. Rudden has simply been around for the past ten or 15 years.

I ask Mr. Whitney whether the quotes attributed to him are true. Has Covanta been fined in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania and New Jersey? One mistake is acceptable but four are a matter of significant concern. Perhaps he could confirm whether he stated his company has a compliance rate of 99.9%. I am not impressed with a reliability figure of 99.9% in the 21st century. If the car I own boasted that safety record, I would drive fairly slowly. I tried to find real time information on emissions from Covanta plants but apparently the only up to date data made available is the company's stock price. Emissions information for Vienna is available on a 24 hour basis on websites. Given the serious public health concerns that arise in regard to dioxins and flourines, I would worry if Mr. Whitney could only assure us that we will be safe 99.9% of the time.

Mr. John Tierney

I do not agree with the point of view that has been expressed. Unfortunately, Deputy Cuffe missed some of my previous comments.

I was listening to the discussion on my monitor.

Mr. John Tierney

We engaged in a major consultative process before finalising the waste management strategy. I remind members that the four local authorities in Dublin adopted that plan and some did so unanimously. A great deal of blame has been ascribed to council officials because they have had direct responsibility for certain functions since 2001. That was a Government decision.

I accept that it was a Government decision, although not one by my Government.

Mr. John Tierney

Let us call a spade a spade. It was done because of the difficulties associated with locating facilities. The principles of waste management plans were fine but it had become incredibly difficult to locate facilities.

We have discussed the issue of size on a number of occasions already. I do not accept the Deputy's description. Our sole objective has been to develop an integrated waste management——

With respect, what part of my description does Mr. Tierney not accept?

Mr. John Tierney

I refer to the deputy's description of the size and the adjectives he used in that regard.

What about the actual size?

Mr. John Tierney

As I have already pointed out, we consider the size to be appropriate. Our sole objective has been to provide an integrated waste management solution for Dublin. If we do not have this — as I have pointed out in every local authority in which I have worked — we do not have the basis for the economic, social, cultural and environmental development of an international city region.

I disagree, with respect.

Mr. John Tierney

That is a fact. I do not know how anybody could disagree that an integrated waste management solution which caters for future growth is a sensible approach. That is my point of view.

I do not think a large chunk of it should be burned.

Mr. John Tierney

The terminology associated with this is important. The Deputy is saying it is just burning, but this is a waste-to-energy scheme. The electricity generation and heat recovery aspects are never mentioned. These are valuable resources that will be available to Dublin city, which should not be forgotten.

The recent court ruling was mentioned. In any event, under the waste management plan, waste is directed to the highest point on the hierarchy, not necessarily a particular facility.

I explained the change of policy in my submission. As we have said, we have carried this out in accordance with Government policy and there is a difference between the intention to change the policy and actual change. On the consultant process, from recollection, we have tendered on at least three separate occasions for different aspects of the process over the years——

When was the most recent tendering?

Mr. John Tierney

——whether it was the waste management strategy, the client's representative in the project itself, or the site selection.

When was the most recent?

Mr. John Tierney

The most recent was probably the client's representative for the project.

I do not think Mr. Tierney addressed the issue of the put and pay clause. Does he accept that the less waste the people of Dublin contribute to this waste-to-energy plant, to use Mr. Tierney's phrasing, the more we will have to pay if we do not reach the targets?

Mr. John Tierney

I have explained this a number of times.

It is a simple question.

Mr. John Tierney

I will explain it again. In drawing up a public private partnership contract of this nature — this has been certified in accordance with the procedures of the National Development Finance Agency and Departments of Finance and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government — one must make a decision on the quantum of put or pay as part of the project. We took a judgment on this, and the whole process has been deemed to be value for money.

With regard to the figures themselves, that judgment is based on a 25-year period. That is the decision that was made as a result of the entire process. However, we have also built in a provision that where we do not directly provide the waste ourselves, it is not an automatic payment by Dublin City Council. I have clarified that.

What is the threshold above which we do not have to pay? Is it 320,000 tonnes?

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

How much waste are we currently producing in the four local authorities that would be suitable?

Mr. John Tierney

I beg your pardon. It may be less than 320,000 tonnes in a number of scenarios. It could be a great deal less.

All right. How much waste are we producing at the moment that would be suitable for burning?

Mr. John Tierney

Again, this is part of the explanation. A total of 735,000 tonnes went to landfill in 2008.

How much was collected by the four local authorities?

Mr. John Tierney

The most up-to-date figure on that is probably around 280,000 tonnes.

Does that represent the amount collected by local authorities——

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

——and not by private companies?

Mr. John Tierney

I am sorry, that may include——

I think Mr. Tierney is confusing the local authorities and the private waste collectors.

Mr. John Tierney

No, I am not. We must remember there are other figures also. For example, street sweepings are also valid in terms of throughput.

Much of that is compostable, such as leaves.

Mr. John Tierney

I do not think we will get into that debate here. The point was about what will be available for the facility. Private operators will make a judgment within the Dublin region based on the price offered under competition. We must also take into account the EU landfill directive and the amount of waste that must be diverted away from landfill over the period.

Some private waste contractors are being paid to take the domestic waste they collect, yet the city council will be charging to bring it to Ringsend. My basic concern is that in the waste hierarchy, the top of the pyramid is minimising waste, yet the put or pay principle means we have to maximise waste to the waste-to-energy plant to avoid paying money to the Covanta or DONG, that is, to the PPP.

Mr. John Tierney

The Deputy is ignoring what I have already said about the position of the Dublin local authorities with regard to maximising waste. Actions have spoken in terms of what we have done. It is not being acknowledged that waste to energy is higher on the hierarchy than landfill.

It is not higher than minimisation.

Mr. John Tierney

Absolutely. I agree with the Deputy: the more minimisation, the better, and the more recycling that is done, the better.

We are now at a stage at which the vast bulk of domestic waste does not have to go to landfill. Increasing proportions can be recycled as time goes on. That is in 2009. I do not know where we will be in 2020, but I can be damn sure we will be able to recycle a higher percentage.

Mr. John Tierney

The figures for recycling, for example, that have been put forward in the international review have been found by the ESRI not to be credible.

With respect, the city council employed the ESRI.

Mr. John Tierney

I am sorry, that is casting aspersions on——

That is the council's report.

Mr. John Tierney

The ESRI conducted the research for the report. That is what happened.

For the council.

Mr. John Tierney

I am not too sure what the Deputy means.

We can throw reports at each other all afternoon. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has his report and the council has its report.

Mr. John Tierney

The Deputy is questioning the independence of the ESRI on this issue.

I am not questioning its independence for a second. I am simply pointing out that the report to which Mr. Tierney refers was commissioned by the council.

Mr. John Tierney

Absolutely.

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

Great. The Minister's report was commissioned by him.

Mr. John Tierney

Yes, yet when our report was produced, it was cast as undermining the international review rather than being a valid contribution to the debate.

Different parts of the report were analysed by different people.

Mr. John Tierney

I am sorry, I have forgotten what the Deputy was asking.

It was about waste minimisation. My grave concern is that the impetus to minimise waste will be gone. There is an effort to reduce waste, but the council will take the wind out of its sails. Every household in the city has been making an effort in this regard. In all the Race against Waste and climate change campaigns, we are being told to reduce waste. Every four year old in Dublin knows it is important to reduce the amount of waste. My children tell me not to throw things into the bin under the sink. It is about minimising. Despite this, the contract to which the council has committed me, my children and my children's children is all about sending however many hundred thousand tonnes of waste to the incinerator in Ringsend this year, next year and in 25 years' time.

Mr. John Tierney

The Deputy is envisaging that Dublin will stand still in terms of growth over the next 25 to 30 years. Irrespective of what we do with regard to waste recycling——

Dublin will never stand still. It may well double in population——

Mr. John Tierney

May I finish?

——but the amount of waste we produce must be reduced if we are to meet climate change targets and we are to evolve beyond the "throw it back over your shoulder" approach to waste. It will change. I do not accept the graph that equates economic growth and population growth with waste growth. I do not think they are inextricably linked. I am concerned that the council, when planning for this project, is putting economic growth on the same line of the graph as the amount of waste going into the incinerator.

Mr. John Tierney

There will be a substantial population increase in Dublin. That is part of the national spatial strategy and of making Dublin a more compact city.

Mr. John Tierney

Extra people will produce waste, as will extra economic activity. These factors must be taken into account over a period of 25 to 30 years. What we have done is sensible in respect of providing a facility that will cater for 25 years and longer and in terms of the future of this city. I pointed out that one of the things that has bedevilled us is that although facilities needed to be larger in capacity, when there were problems, they had to be rectified. One thing we should have learned from the past is to ensure we have the correct size of facility for the future.

I have a few brief comments. Since the introduction of county waste management plans things have moved forward substantially and we are in a better place than we were. Whether it is the executive or the elected members that make the decision, things have worked well.

I thank the county manager for discontinuing the bringing of waste to County Kildare. I am delighted he will now provide a facility and will stop building pyramids in Kill. County Kildare brought some waste to Dublin too, if I may be flippant.

The big issue, as discussed here all afternoon, is the size of this incinerator. The county manager says this is the size required for the next 25 years. I am no authority and cannot contradict him on whether this is required. However, regarding size, if it is to be built in the way described and if it were then to be discovered that such a large facility was not needed, perhaps it should be built in stages.

When the waste operators spoke to the committee they made much play of the number of jobs that will be lost if this incinerator is built. This was referred to in the report but perhaps the manager might elaborate further on this point.

These are comments rather than questions. The county manager mentioned community gain. Spreading out such gain to a large number of communities and groups on a willy-nilly basis where everyone gets a little bit is not the right way to do it. There should be a flagship project each year, perhaps scholarships for people in disadvantaged areas so that they could go to second level or something that would make a significant impact on communities. Giving grants to community groups is always beneficial.

The county manager must now drive this project on, listen to the people and hear whether adjustments should be made. I do not believe we have gained very much from this debate. The project is now at a certain stage. I am an ordinary Joe Soap, a Deputy from north Kildare. I cannot see how the thing can be reversed. It cannot go backwards so it must go forward.

I have a further point in respect of the ESRI report. The ESRI based its assumptions on a 4% increase from 2012 whereas during the Celtic tiger years the figure was 0.65%. This may have been mentioned and responded to already and I apologise if has been covered.

I acknowledge the city manager's commitment to recycling. As a member of Dublin City Council, I can testify personally that he has a real commitment in this regard and has worked exceptionally hard. Despite everything, it is important to give credit where it is due.

I refer to Senator Coffey's point. Many political points are being made but it is important to remember that the Waste Management Act 1996 was introduced by Deputy Brendan Howlin and supported by Fine Gael. That has led us on to our present road and it should not be forgotten, as it often is.

I have one other comment on the development in County Kildare. I live within one mile of the largest landfill site which was operated by Bord na Móna. I do not like the location but it is there. If one were to ask the community now where the landfill is, very few would be able to answer.

Mr. John Tierney

If I may, I shall comment on the last point. Much play was made earlier of Covanta and its record. There is no doubt that the facilities provided today are of a great standard because of the way things have moved on and the standards that are required as part of the licensing process. The US standards are even higher than EU standards and that should be acknowledged too in certain areas.

Deputy Fitzpatrick made a point about building the facility in stages. That is not an option with an incineration plant as it is with other facilities. The technical people can explain that in more detail if members require it.

Regarding the number of jobs, there is going to be diversion from landfill in any event so those jobs cannot be sustained on that basis. We do not have the basis to know the number of jobs involved or how it is calculated, and that was the point made. If MBT or incineration plants are developed, obviously jobs will be available in those facilities which are higher up the hierarchy. I may get Mr. Rudden to come in at this stage in regard to some of the figures.

There appears to be a flaw in the assumptions the ESRI made.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

I welcome the chance to answer that. I did not get the chance to answer the same question when Deputy Creighton posed it. The most recent waste management plan progress report has been posted on the Dublin waste website in recent weeks. That casts back over the years from 2003 and tries to project what will happen in the future.

It is true to say that in the past year or so, with the economic decline in terms of commercial activity, waste figures have reduced to some degree. They have not reduced as mentioned. The figure of 0.65% should be 0.77%, if one does the sums.

Looking forward, in terms of population projections, the ESRI is the national authority from which all planning authorities take their starting point in looking at city and county development plans, waste management plans and so on. The model used in the ESRI report to project forward in waste management terms is more or less a model used by the Environmental Protection Agency. It is an EPA-approved model designed by the ESRI and it is the model we used to project the needs of the Dublin region with respect to that annual report which is now available and with respect to what the future size of the plant should be. We accept there has been a fall-off in figures.

We all want to minimise waste. The city council has been very modest in this regard today. It has not mentioned the very innovative things such as free trade websites and the work of its environmental offices and all that. It tries to do the best it can to reduce waste. However, at the same time, internationally we are finding that it is impossible to get away from those figures of 3% or 4%. All over the world governments are trying to get away from it. There is a reality, which I assume the ESRI is taking on board, in terms of getting back to, perhaps not as strong a growth but steady growth over the bulk of the 25 years the city manager mentioned.

Is that not a huge gap, from 0.77%?

Mr. P. J. Rudden

It is.

Whatever the models, the ESRI——

Mr. P. J. Rudden

It evens out.

Four per cent seems a huge figure if it was 0.77% during the height of the boom.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

It does. If the Chairman likes, we might clarify this issue when we come back on the other points.

I have a few straight factual questions. One or two things have intrigued me about the debate today. First, people are expressing concern that waste might come into Dublin from outside the Dublin region. That is a fact of life. Let us be real. I live in the midlands in County Laois. Waste has gone from County Laois to County Kildare and in reverse, and from County Tipperary to County Limerick. That happens. We live in a free country and people can move and drive their trucks.

There is a fear of international involvement——

No, I mean within the country. The market dictates there will be movement of waste. It is happening. A second point is the great deal of emphasis on whether the city, depending on what it collects, can guarantee delivery of X and Y. I live in a county where the council does not collect. It has not had a waste truck in 20 years. Everything is privatised. The private sector delivers the goods to wherever it is to be delivered. There is a hang-up about this. I would be happier if Dublin City Council were not involved but that is a personal view. There is no reason wheelie bins should only be collected by a local authority. Several counties throughout the country overcame that issue decades ago. There is something of a hang-up about the matter.

I refer to the tendering process. Elsam AS were the preferred bidders. An issue was made of the change of owner. Did that cause a complication? There have been other public debates in which people have tendered for large projects but there was a change in ownership structure during the course of the process. Obviously, the delegation is satisfied, but will it explain the matter and provide the committee with some comfort that there was no difficulty. Will Covanta outline the construction costs of this project, if it is in a position to do so?

I refer to the issue of 320,000 tonnes per annum. Is there anything in the contract whereby in exceptional circumstances that amount could be averaged over a two or three-year period? Let us suppose there were a strike or whatever. Is there any way the 320,000 tonnes the council is committed to providing could be averaged over two or three years? Let us suppose force majeure or something outside the council’s control prevented the movement, or perhaps a strike or some other catastrophe. Is there a way of averaging the amount to cope with a once-off problem to deliver in a particular year?

I gather the company intends to build the full capacity in one go at the beginning and that it cannot build half an incinerator now and the other half later. Will the company inform the committee how much residual ash there will be and where it will go? The company is building a 600,000 tonne capacity plant. Could the plant operate above that? I realise it is designed for that level but could it operate at 110% or 120% efficiency? What is the company's break-even point in terms of the number of thousand tonnes per annum? Is that commercially sensitive information or can the company provide it?

In his final summary, Mr. Tierney stated the project had been certified as value for money by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the National Development Finance Agency. Will the council inform the committee of the source of this claim? Does it have a copy of the document in which the Department stated as much, because there has been a good deal of toing and froing about the Department. It seems a strong statement from the council to suggest the Department had certified that the project is value for money. If the council were to cite the source, it might be of interest to the committee.

I refer to the revenue from the electricity generation and district heating. Who receives the revenue, the council or Covanta? I realise the council does not expect it to happen, but in the unlikely event of a fine because the council did not meet its delivery target, how would it be shared between the four local authorities? I realise the council has stated it is unlikely and I do not predict it would happen but if it did, how would it be shared? These are all routine questions and perhaps the council and the company will give us the information as best they can. If anything cannot be answered today in respect of any of the points, the delegations could send the committee a letter to clarify matters later.

Mr. John Tierney

We will do our best. The only issue or main issue with the change during the tendering was the delay. The construction cost has been estimated——

Was Covanta not an under-bidder that came back? Mr. Tierney will understand why I put the question.

Mr. John Tierney

No, absolutely not. Covanta's outlay has been estimated of the order of €350 million. I refer to the suggestion of 320,000 tonnes averaged over several years. We must deal with this in accordance with the contract provisions and it is impossible for me to negotiate these today. I imagine the break-even figure is commercially sensitive. Mr. Rudden will refer to the matter of residual ash. The licence is for 600,000 tonnes.

The EPA will not allow in excess of that?

Mr. John Tierney

I will see what I can get in respect of the certification from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. There is a revenue share on the electricity, but electricity output will be substantial. Based on current prices, it should be very helpful in terms of recouping our outlay on the project. Reference was made to 320,000 tonnes. There is a procedure for sharing it among the four local authorities. This is a project involving the four local authorities, even though we are the face of it.

Okay. The city council is the lead player. Are there any other comments?

Mr. P. J. Rudden

I refer to the matter of ash. If 600,000 tonnes were processed, approximately 25% to 30% of it would become ash. However, the vast bulk of that, some 90%, would be bottom ash, which can be recycled and reused in road construction and so on. The Dublin waste plan clearly states that bottom ash is to be recycled. In the long term we wish for it to be recycled in Dublin but as of yet there is no appropriate construction and demolition waste recycling operation in Dublin. In the interim, Covanta's proposal is to export it to the UK by ship for recycling. Some 10% of that bulk of ash is fly ash, which is hazardous. The intention always was and remains to export it to a facility that can handle the material, either in Norway or Germany. That is a matter for the contractor.

If there were 600,000 tonnes going in, some 150,000 tonnes would be exported. Is that correct? There were some concerns about material coming in but the traffic seems to be going the other way.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

It is exported by ship from the site and the facility is there along by the quay.

Do other European countries find it acceptable to take our fly ash? Are they allowed to do that? They told us we cannot bring anything in.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

Some 90% of it is recycled and we are allowed to export it for recycling. We hope there will be an enterprise in Dublin or Ireland to recycle it.

Would it be recycled into cement or tar or other road building materials?

Mr. P. J. Rudden

Yes, and if there were such a facility here, that is what would happen. However, that was the proposal that went through the planning process. Covanta can further clarify the matter.

That is probably something of a surprise. The discussion today has been about stuff coming in but it appears some 25% of what passes through will be exported.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

There will be no stuff coming in. Absolutely not.

It is going the other way. Does Covanta wish to add anything?

Mr. Scott Whitney

The Chairman asked a question about the break-even point. Believe it or not, we have not calculated a specific break-even point.

What is the range?

Mr. Scott Whitney

The break-even point will depend on how much waste comes in, from where, what the market for that waste is and how much electricity revenue is produced, based on the electricity market in Ireland in the coming years. Not all of the 45 facilities we operate at present run at 100% capacity all the time. There is some ability to buffer the amount of operations and the percentage capacity over time.

Is it possible to get information about the 4% figure produced by the ESRI?

Is that report publicly available?

How did the ESRI make that assumption? What models were used to get that 4% figure? The European average is 1%, so the figure is quite high.

I thank everyone for attending. We have been here for three and a half hours at this stage and I thank everyone for their patience, which was an issue of concern. It has been useful to get this information following our discussion at the previous meeting. I thank the members of the committee for their contribution and the other Members who attended today.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 16 February 2010.
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