JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 25 May 2010

Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010: Discussion

Chairman

Members will recall a request from the Wild Deer Association of Ireland — an organisation that represents deer stalkers — seeking to discuss with the committee its concerns with the recently published Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010, in particular, the proposed prohibition of the use of two or more dogs while hunting deer.

I am pleased to welcome its spokespersons to discuss the difficulties its members are encountering with the legislation. We are joined by Mr. Pat Scully, chairman, Mr. Damien Hannigan, secretary, Mr. Thomas Murphy, vice chairman, and Mr. Liam Nolan, secretary of the Deer Alliance — the body charged with assessment and certification of licensed hunters hunting on Coillte forest property. Thank you all for attending.

The format of our meeting will involve a brief presentation by the delegates followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. That means they cannot be sued if they say something wrong. If they are directed by the chairman of the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Damien Hannigan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Damien Hannigan

On behalf of our members I thank the committee for its invitation to brief it today on the issues and concerns we have raised in respect of the recently published Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010.

I acknowledge the courtesy and assistance we have received from the committee secretariat, notably Mr. Pat Neary, in preparing for this session.

I am the secretary of the Wild Deer Association of Ireland. I am accompanied by Mr. Pat Scully, our chairman, Mr. Liam Nolan, secretary of the Deer Alliance, which is the body charged with assessment and certification of licensed hunters hunting on Coillte forest property, and Mr. Thomas Murphy, vice chairman of the Irish Deer Society, an organisation which represents deer stalkers. Our associations represent more than 1,500 deer stalkers throughout the country. Our interest goes beyond one of sport and extends into the training and certification of hunters in the skills of deer stalking as well as into the area of the conservation of our deer population.

As members will be aware, there has been considerable public and political controversy about the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill. That is because the Bill is designed to give effect to the commitment in the renegotiated programme for Government "to ban stag hunting". Several statements and comments have been made by the Minister, Deputy John Gormley, as well as by other members of the Green Party, that suggested that the phrase "to ban stag hunting" referred only to their proposal to ban the Ward Union Staghounds in County Meath. However, the controversy over the banning of the Ward Union Hunt must not be allowed to obscure the fact that the Bill goes much further than that single objective.

For the first time ever in law, section 3(2) creates a new offence that will curb, inhibit and possibly render unworkable the officially recognised and endorsed method of deer stalking. Section 3(2) states:

Subject to subsection (3), a person, including the holder of a licence or permission granted under this Act, who hunts deer with two or more dogs shall be guilty of an offence.

In simple terms, deer stalkers are now limited to only one dog. I will explain the purpose of dogs in deer stalking. Unlike other forms of hunting, it is not to seek and find a live quarry. It is quite the opposite. The dogs are used to locate a fallen deer extremely quickly so that the animal may be despatched humanely. When a deer is wounded, it immediately retreats and hides in deep cover. Without the assistance of dogs, it could take stalkers several days to locate a wounded deer or the deer might never be found. Thus, the purpose of using dogs is an entirely humane one.

The proposed limit to only one dog is a fundamental change to the way deer stalking has always been conducted. When a small group of hunters go out together for the sport of pitting themselves against nature and their quarry, several of them may bring a dog with them. Often, this is a way of training and developing a young dog into the required level of proficiency in locating deer.

Apart from the requirements of having a gun licence and a licence to hunt deer, the normal practice for deer stalkers is to lease an area of forestry land from Coillte for the purposes of stalking the deer on it. This has the obvious benefit of reducing the damage caused to saplings and young trees by foraging deer. It is a requirement of the Coillte lease that the stalker must have access to a dog or dog trained for the purpose of tracking deer, including injured deer.

Thousands of hectares of State forestry are leased for deer stalking for five-year terms. The annual leasing cost to a licensed hunter will range from several hundred euro to many thousands of euro, depending on acreage and cull numbers involved. The annual leasing cost for a forest in north Wicklow, for example, with high deer density and close to the centre of human population, could run to €20,000 to €30,000 per year. This revenue, payable annually and with commitment to a five-year licence duration, is hugely important to Coillte.

Many of these leases will come up for renewal in June. With the publication of the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill, deer stalkers are faced with a dilemma as to whether they should renew these expensive leases. If section 3 is enacted as it stands a few months into the new leases, they could be stuck with costly leases with a severely restricted hunting capability. This is creating huge uncertainty and could lead to a reduction in the number of new leases taken up. The result will be that the deer population will begin to get out of control and cause serious damage to forestry plantations and adjoining farms.

We have met senior management of Coillte to discuss this matter. It is fair to state that it expressed deep concern about the implications of creating this new offence and it will write to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, to express its concern. We also met recently with senior officials of the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It is a fair representation of that meeting to state that they too are concerned about the implications and it is their view that section 3(2) must be referred to the Minister, the Attorney General and the Parliamentary Counsel to see if a wording may be devised to remedy the defects. A report in The Irish Times on Thursday, 20 May stated:

Earlier it emerged that Minister for the Environment John Gormley is prepared to alter forthcoming wildlife legislation to allay the concerns of deerstalkers who claim that further restrictions are about to be imposed.

A meeting took place this week between senior officials in the Department of the Environment and representatives of deerstalking associations who are concerned about the implications of the recently-published Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010.

Mr. Gormley's spokesman said the officials gave assurances at the meeting that there was "no intention to restrict traditional deerstalking", and that the proposed legislation "could and would be amended to ensure clarity on this issue".

It is important to state that there is no public demand for the imposition of the 'one dog' requirement. There is no controversy about the way deer stalking is conducted. Quite the contrary, more than 30,000 deer are culled every year under licence from the Minister and some Green Party representatives claim that the Minister has issued more licences to stalk deer than any of his predecessors. No reason has been given for this proposed change. There was no prior consultation with licensed deer stalkers, who now number more than 4,000, on this Bill. The first they knew about it was when the Bill was published. No regulatory impact assessment of the Bill has been conducted, as recommended in the Government guidelines.

In short, this situation is a total mess. How could this happen? Is this a way to treat law-abiding citizens? In the absence of a statement by the Minister on his reasons for proposing section 3, we must give him the benefit of the doubt as to his bona fides. However, it is beginning to look as if in his headlong rush to ban the Ward Union staghounds, he is trampling over deer stalking as well.

We appeal to the committee for its advice and support in preventing a great wrong from being perpetrated. It would be helpful if the committee heard directly from Coillte and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Perhaps the Minister and his officials could appear before the committee to explain the rationale for section 3. At the minimum, the Minister needs to agree to initiate consultation with all the stakeholder affected by the Bill as well as to conduct a full regulatory impact assessment.

We are prepared to enter wholeheartedly into the process of dialogue recommended by the committee. However, we foresee no solution other than the total deletion of section 3(2). We are open to persuasion, but we do not believe a suitable formula of words can be found. There is neither demand for nor support by anyone for the introduction of a "one dog rule" into deer stalking. This would safeguard the current humane method of deer stalking, which has worked well not only for us but for Coillte and the National Parks and Wildlife Service.

Go raibh maith agat.

Chairman

Thank you. Before I call Deputy Bannon will Mr. Hannigan clarify several points in his presentation? He stated that 30,000 deer were culled last year and Coillte was mentioned a number of times. How many of the deer were culled on the Coillte land. There is deer stalking in other forests and estates around the county. For the benefit of those who are not familiar with deer stalking, will he tell the committee what deer stalking entails. I am from a rural area and I know about deer stalking, but the phrase may give some people the jitters.

Mr. Damien Hannigan

I will ask my colleague Mr. Liam Nolan to explain it.

Mr. Liam Nolan

Thank you. Without going into a lecture on the history of sport, I will give members a flavour of what it entails. Deer stalking is the method by which wild deer are controlled and managed in so far as they can be. There is a very strong element of sport attached to it, but it is a fundamental tool of management. Wild deer have no natural enemies other than extremes of climate. The days are long gone when wolves and bears helped to keep the population in check. It falls on man to control the populations. Deer are an amenity under different headings. They are a social, sporting and scenic amenity. To some degree they are an economic amenity, but are also an economic threat. The IFA delegation that follows us, would be the first to agree that where wild deer are not controlled, they can represent a significant threat to agriculture in all its forms, in particular to silviculture.

I cannot give the committee an exact answer on the numbers of wild deer shot on Coillte property today. It would be somewhere in the order of 50% to 60%, but I would issue a caveat, that Coillte forest property represents the reservoir of wild deer. The three species, red deer, fallow deer and Sika deer are all found in Coillte and Sitka forest property in the natural home for Sika deer as anyone who is familiar with the Dublin and Wicklow mountains will testify. Fallow deer are woodland deer and red deer are associated not merely with old broadleaf forests but with open mountains, such as Glenveagh National Park or Killarney National Park and other such areas. Somewhere between 40% and 60% of wild shot deer are sourced directly from Coillte forest property. The latest figure for the number of licensed deerhunters is 4008. The Deer Alliance, which is the certifying body has already certified just under 1,000 of these hunters since the inception of the Deer Alliance hunter competence assessment programme.

I digress to point out that the Deer Alliance is composed of 12 or 13 different organisations, not just the four or five deer organisations such as the Wild Deer Association, the Irish Deer Society but also Coillte Teoranta, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the Irish Farmers Association, the Irish Timber Growers Association and the Garda Síochána and of course, the forest service. These bodies all came together in 2001 to set up a scheme whereby hunters would be properly licensed and certified as to their competence. I mention that background as a way of providing a general perspective on the issue of dogs. We have published for example a stalker training manual, and we have sold several thousand copies to deer hunters from all over the world. We give an entire chapter over to the subject of dogs for deer stalking. Quite apart from the fact that it is a specific condition of the Coillte licence that we have access to trained dogs, we recommend that anyone hunting wild deer must have access to a trained tracking dog, whether they are hunting on Coillte forest property or on private farmland.

Chairman

Deputy Bannon was the first to indicate.

Deputy James Bannon

I welcome the delegation from the Wild Deer Association of Ireland and compliment it on its most informative and interesting presentation. As I see it rural Ireland is under threat. The traditional way of life is facing destruction, not only in this area but in several other areas. I am a farmer from rural Ireland and there is a great fear in the community about what is happening.

The Green Party, an urban based party is essentially putting a ban on rural traditions, rural tourism and the rural economy. Ireland needs field sports, which has been widely recognised. Apart from the sporting aspect, we need revenue generated by wild life activities. The current figure amounts to €150 million per annum. It is madness at a time of national economic recession for legislation on wildlife to be brought forward and that a Government party could consider putting such revenue at risk, when we need it now. This legislation can be seen as an attack that will lead to a ban on all field sports. I have had representations, and as the chairman of an angling club, I know there is concern in that area about what can happen in future.

The Government, particularly the Green Party, have destroyed the farming sector by their support for the turf cutting ban and so on. To date, has the Minister met the association, Coillte or other bodies concerned? Good government is about listening to people, engaging with them and coming to a compromise on issues of concern to various organisations. Through its spokesperson, Deputy Phil Hogan, Fine Gael will strongly oppose any change to existing licensing arrangements for hunting. We will reverse any changes made by the Government, a commitment that is on the public record.

Has the Minister met representatives? He hopped around the country yesterday and visited Longford but he failed to meet the councillors and several other bodies that requested meetings. He raised green flags over schools and in public libraries launching this, that and the other. He failed to meet people on his tour of duty around the constituency. He should engage with the various bodies and associations. I have met many associations with whom he has not engaged. Is it any different in the case of the associations before us?

Chairman

We will take a number of questions before reverting to the delegations.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I welcome the delegation from the Wild Deer Association of Ireland and thank it for the presentation. Wild deer were confined to certain parts of the country in the past but now every part of the country has some quantity of wild deer. Some people have a problem with this but I welcome it. From an economic and tourism point of view, we can make hay. As a rural Deputy, I have queries from visitors who want to engage in the sport. Section 3 is a concern for the Minister. My concern is that the Minister's understanding of the sport leaves much to be desired. The purpose of the dogs in stalking is to help the situation rather than hinder it. I have a problem with the Minister's stance. I hope he will see sense and rectify this situation by amendment. The sport should be promoted rather than hindered. I see huge potential in the sport from a tourism point of view and I would like to hear the views of the delegates on this issue and how far we can take this as a sport to promote and to invite people to the country for the purposes of deer stalking.

Senator Paudie Coffey

I will try to be as brief as possible. I thank the delegation for appearing before the committee. It is important to have all the information from the stakeholders affected by this Bill. I thank the delegations for laying it on the table for the Oireachtas Members to consider. The presentation referred to the Minister consulting only at a late stage. This is the second successive committee meeting referring to the problem of the Minister drafting legislation without any real consultation with stakeholders. We heard about this in respect of the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill. The stakeholders told us there was no real engagement or consultation by the Minister and his officials prior to the drafting of the Bill. We are hearing again today that those directly involved at the coalface, for many generations prior to the history of the association, have not been asked for their views prior to the drafting of the legislation. That is regrettable and must be addressed by the Government and the Minister. I remind committee members that this is a Government Bill, not a Green Party Bill. It will require the support of the largest party in the Dáil, Fianna Fáil, before coming into force. It is fine for Government Deputies to come into this committee meeting to say they support the delegation but when it comes to tabling amendments and voting on the Bill we will see the real colour of their money and we will see how they support the rural groups they speak about. We heard this in respect of other legislation and we are hearing it again today.

I agree with Deputy O'Sullivan on the lack of understanding the Minister displayed in respect of this sport. Reference was made to the training manual and the importance of having a number of dogs when deer stalking. They are a fundamental resource when deer stalking. This Bill will criminalise those who go out with more than one dog, which is a worrying development. Many people have concerns about the banning of the Ward Union Hunt. The argument has been made that this is the thin end of the wedge. The intention of the Bill, which was to ban the Ward Union Hunt, is far exceeding the initial proposal. This is also true of the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill. It was originally intended to deal with puppy farms but the Bill, when drafted by the Minister, is reaching into the greyhound industry and the hunting industry, areas into which it was not intended to go. As Oireachtas Members, we should be concerned that a Bill is being produced here under the guise of animal welfare but is far exceeding that area. The Bill will have wide-reaching implications for rural, traditional country sports. That is what will happen here. As a Fine Gael Member I have serious concerns about this.

I respect the fact that Fianna Fáil Deputies are from rural constituencies and that they understand rural sports. I hope they will impose their will and numbers on the Minister of the day, Deputy Gormley, to ensure adequate amendments are introduced to stop a measure that will wipe out rural traditional sports.

State agencies, such as Coillte, the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Garda Síochána are also concerned about this Bill. That is noteworthy. This is the objective view from State agencies concerned about the implications of the Bill. The committee needs to take this on board and take a view from them. The delegation is viewed as having a vested interest in respect of deer stalking but those agencies are objective and can provide a view to support the cause of the delegations. It would be helpful to hear those views.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I welcome the Wild Deer Association of Ireland and the Irish Deer Society. We have all had difficulties with wild deer across our counties and it is still a serious problem. The delegations have referred to the deer population getting out of control and causing serious damage to forestry plantations and adjoining farms. That has already happened. Deer stalking is very important.

I remind Senator Coffey and Deputy Bannon that we have already sought changes to this Bill. I did not realise the delegations were affected to this extent until last week. I agree with other speakers that consultation——

Deputy James Bannon

Were the Deputies not listening to their constituents?

Deputy Johnny Brady

I did not interrupt Deputy Bannon when he spoke and he should have some respect for me when I am speaking. I know he does not have much respect for anyone. Consultation is very important and as a group of rural Deputies we had difficulties in our constituency with the Ward Union Hunt. I said this to the Ward Union Hunt at the time. It has made massive changes to its regulations and has improved. Deputy McEntee comes from that area and his constituency is more affected by these measures. I have seen the improvements they made from the difficulties they had in Kildalkey and the accidents that took place. They have made massive changes in the area. I visited the Ward Union Hunt and saw its kennels, its deer herd and its hounds. It does a very good job but it is a pity there was not more consultation and more time given for the changes. This, however, is part of the programme for Government and if there is a vote on the proposals I will vote with the Government.

Deputy James Bannon

It is a pity that the Deputy's party sold out to the Green Party.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Have a bit of respect for other speakers, Deputy Bannon.

Chairman

Allow the Deputy to speak.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Deputy Bannon is not down in a bog in Longford, footing turf. He is in the Houses of the Oireachtas and he should have a bit of respect. We will try to make whatever changes are necessary because the issue is very important. I have seen many farms damaged by wild deer and the enormous damage they have done to fences and forestry. The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, WDAI, is an important cog in the wheel which will ensure the deer population does not get out of control. Changes need to be made and we will fight to see that they are made.

Deputy Bannon and Senator Coffey say they will make changes when they get into Government but do they have consent for those changes from their potential partners in Government?

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I thank the delegation and have a couple of questions on their presentation. Did the Minister's officials say why section 3(2) was put into the Bill? They have been reported as saying that they will consider an amendment. Did they say they would consult the WDAI or will the association get to see the amendment in advance of printing? Did they give any indication of the timescale?

Did the delegates receive any response to their request for a regulatory impact assessment? What would that entail? How many wild deer are in the country and how does this compare with other countries? To what extent can it be seen as a sustainable number?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

The culling and stalking of deer are a necessity. If it is legal to do it with two dogs, provided one of them is trained, then it should be done. I respect what officials of the national parks and wildlife service say, because they are an authority on the subject, and I respect the opinions of Coillte. I do not believe anybody at this table wants the same thing to happen to deer as happened to mink. Mink were imported many years ago and kept in cages but certain groups took it upon themselves to release them into the countryside, causing enormous damage to farmers and the country way of life.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I welcome the group to the meeting. It represents an essential structure in this area. I live near Coillte woods in Dartry, Cootehill, where there are many deer. Having had a small run-in with one of them I appreciate the need for control and for culling. They are lovely animals and should be respected but they have to be dealt with.

Some colleagues agree that culling is necessary and believe the Minister has a lack of understanding of the issue. That is an understatement. The Minister has brought in many things which he did not understand and it is unbelievable that he appears not to have sought advice before he acted.

I have attended several public meetings on wildlife issues and the policy of the Minister and the Green Party is totally unacceptable. This is a way of life for many people. People travel from Donegal and other places to join up with colleagues. It is ridiculous to confine the practice to one dog and make a person liable to heavy costs for not following the rules. I will encourage amendments to be tabled so that common sense can prevail.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I welcome the delegates. Every day is part of a learning curve and this started with the banning of the stag. As our colleagues in Fianna Fáil have said, there are 4,008 licensed hunters, bringing €150 million to the economy while 30,000 deer stock are shot legally every year. It is a massive sport and I have no doubt it will not be touched. It cannot be allowed to happen because it is worth too much to the economy.

As members know, RISE! has been formed with the support of the WDAI and all the hunting, fishing and shooting clubs in the country. It has turned into a very big campaign. This will turn out to be like England, where it took ten hours to decide to go into Afghanistan but 600 hours to debate hunting.

This amendment will have to come in. My biggest concern is over how to convince everybody not to ban the Ward Union Hunt in County Meath. I know the money only amounts to €1.3 million but that is a great deal of money in my constituency. We are not gentlemen farmers or gentry, as the press would have it. These are people with whom I grew up and the gentry have now left. This is their livelihood and their way of life. Deputy Brady spoke about how members of the hunt always picked up the dead animals. Two or three years ago the Minister introduced new restrictions and they have worked very well.

How many deer are illegally shot on an annual basis? How will members of the Wild Deer Association of Ireland support the Ward Union Hunt on the day of the vote to ensure they are not hung out to dry? If one sells out one group one sells out all of them.

Deputy Máire Hoctor

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak as a non-member of the committee and I apologise for being late. I add my support to the Wild Deer Association of Ireland. Section 3 is not in the programme for Government and we know why the Bill was introduced. It is regrettable that the ban on the Ward Union Hunt became part of our programme for Government because I am not certain that it was fully thought out. A valuable service is provided by the Ward Union Hunt in the way it disposes of fallen animals. Neither the Minister nor his Department appear to have addressed the question of what will happen to those animals when the Ward Union Hunt is eventually disbanded. However, we are here to discuss an important issue. Section 3 is not part of the programme for Government, so it is important that the Minister and his officials and advisers examine the situation. I welcome the fact that the Minister met officials during the week. It is important all the stakeholders are consulted on this and that a full regulatory impact assessment is carried out. It is clear that the lease with Coillte requires the presence of at least one dog, as part of fulfilment of the lease. We are also aware that from a humane point of view it is important the deerstalkers have dogs with them. I am baffled as to why this section was put into the legislation. However, there is time to examine it and to ensure that the deerstalkers are protected. I agree with my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, that deerstalking is a pastime we should advertise abroad. We should not forget that people were hunting deer here long before we could speak English.

The delegations have outlined their concerns very well. I welcome Mr. Damien Hannigan and his colleagues and urge the Minister to examine this section and to address their concerns. These are genuine concerns that deserve our attention.

Deputy John O’Donoghue

I have been coming in and out to this meeting because I have been attending another committee meeting which is on at the same time as this one. It is certain that the great poet, Walter Scott, would never have written The Lady of the Lake if this legislation had been in place and English literature would have been deprived of the stag at eve drinking his fill.

I am always concerned by the introduction of legislation which seems unnecessary or superfluous. My concern is that somebody has decided to include the provision that it would be an offence to hunt with two or more dogs just to create the impression that he or she is more concerned about the welfare of animals than anybody else. This makes sense, but it does not solve any problem. The Minister is an intelligent and sensible man and I expect he will tell whoever inserted this provision to remove it because it makes no sense. Nobody can give a reason one could hunt with one dog, but not with two. If somebody can come in and explain to me why this provision is sensible, I will listen, but not until then.

Deputy Máire Hoctor

Hear, hear.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I cannot understand how a man as sensible as the Minister would introduce such a senseless section into the Bill, if he did.

Chairman

We will return now to the delegates for responses to the questions.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

The question of how deerstalking works was asked earlier. I would like to move a bit further than that and profile the field sports industry. This industry encompasses an annual spend of approximately €150 million per annum, but this spend is just one field of its activity. Field sports activists spend tens of thousands of hours on their fieldcraft and are, by default, de facto guardians of the countryside. They are the eyes and ears of most State bodies and NGOs. Their feedback forms and contributes to environmental initiatives regarding flora and fauna on a national and international basis. However, they were not consulted on this Bill. There are more than 4,000 licensed deer stalkers and probably another 1,000 or 2,000 retired deerstalkers and between them they probably have between 60,000 or 70,000 years of experience. However, nobody referred to, consulted or asked any of them what they thought of this provision. In response to earlier questions, it seems that because nothing was found wrong with the way things operated, it was decided to invent a paper trail of sorts to suit somebody. It appears whoever included this has his or her own spurious reasons for doing so.

To return to the people involved in field sports, this body of people is a massive and brilliant reservoir of knowledge which State bodies and politicians ignore at their peril, as has happened in the case of this legislation. That is the reason we have come before the committee. We are here because there is no mechanism which provides for State bodies to answer for their actions. Nobody was able to ask whether they had consulted the stakeholders. We are stakeholders in this process and that must be recognised. Our mission statement supports a move in that direction. We want to be referenced and consulted on our dedicated areas of interest.

I am a deer farmer, and yesterday evening I went for a walk with my wife on our farm, but by the time we had finished our walk we had committed a green crime, because we had brought our two dogs with us. Lo and behold, we spotted an outlying stag during our walk and the two dogs got very excited and wanted to chase it. While this is a hypothetical crime currently, if this silly legislation goes forward, we would be guilty of breaching it. The arbitrators of this breach would probably be nominated by the same people who drafted the legislation. Our dogs could not understand why I spoiled their chase. I stopped them from chasing the stag and explained the forthcoming legislation to my wife. She found it incredible that this could come to pass and asked what could be done about it.

It should be pointed out that the approximate 4,000 licensed deerstalkers form part of a much larger family. This family probably comprises 150,000 field sport activists. This group of people would like to thank the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and the Green Party for a number of things. He has energised the entire family of field sports activists and given us all a common purpose. He has managed to define the mythical urban-rural divide. Nobody else has been able to do that, but he has managed it. He has brought common purpose to the farming and field sports industry, which has thousands of jobs and a €10 billion turnover. This €10 billion comes from processing animals, forestries, nurseries, gamekeeping and tourism. Game tourism is a big industry here. On average, every deer shooter who comes here spends a minimum of €1,200. This money goes to bed and breakfast establishments, gunshops and outfitters. When the tourist returns home, he promotes the industry more when he tells people he had a brilliant time here. These tourists are the best ambassadors we can have for creating indigenous income. However, we are shooting down this industry at a time when we need jobs. In the middle of the biggest depression in living memory, we are hammering an indigenous industry.

People sell jeeps, tractors, sprays and livestock. We probably have 50 different indigenous streams of activity in this area. It was suggested this activity may not have the same impact on urban people, but these indigenous streams of activity impact on rural people. In rural areas people automatically know where Jimmy is working and that he is up in the forestry dropping a few trees. They know Mick is down the road and probably skinning a few deer or that Johnny is out policing the river and protecting the salmon. This knowledge is second nature to people in the country. It should not be forgotten that there are thousands of jobs in the area.

In this legislation, the Minister has caused the field sports body to look at itself and it has committed to defending itself, consolidating what it has and to advancing its contribution to society. The field sport industry is quite integrated and is peopled by progressive, imaginative and conscientious members, within all of its constituent member bodies. This finds a natural ally in a seamless fit into rural life. It also lends itself to a quick mobilisation and is fast becoming a political bloc. The utilisation of its vote is, can and will be directed to defend, consolidate and improve its contribution to rural and urban society. This is in stark contrast to the offering from the Green Party.

The field sports industry perceives that the agenda being pursued by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, is ill-advised, vexatious, vacuous and personally mischievous in nature. It represents an attack on the jobs and lifestyle choices of certain people and comes in the middle of the worst depression in living memory. Needless to say, níor gortaíodh aon ainmhí agus an óráid seo á thabhairt agam.

I was asked if the Minister, Deputy Gormley, had consulted us. The answer is no. The basic thrust of Deputy O'Sullivan's statement is that there was no background knowledge behind this decision.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I was inquiring as to who advised the Minister in respect of this matter. I do not know whether those who advised him actually know what is involved in deer stalking.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

If I was sceptical, I might suggest that he kept it quite tight. He gave a particular brief to people. They were given directions and were tasked with arriving at a particular point.

Senator Coffey inquired whether we are objective. If one were to profile the field sports industry in general or those who work in the area of deer stalking in particular, one would find that people who are directly employed in both rely on them to make a living. It is possible to say that we are objective. We are passionate about our sport but we are also passionate about our livelihood.

Deputy Johnny Brady indicated that in principle he supports field sports. I find that difficult to reconcile because I was brought up in a house where right was right and wrong was wrong. I was not allowed to say "You are right and you are also right". Some part of the equation must go left or right, it cannot remain in the middle. If one's power base depends on attacking an indigenous industry, it is not for me to ask——

Deputy Johnny Brady

Mr. Murphy need not try to politicise the matter. I do not believe he should have been allowed to do so.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

No.

Deputy Johnny Brady

It seems he is being political about this matter but that does not worry me. I stated that I will support the programme for Government to which my party agreed. As Deputy Hoctor stated, however, this amendment was not contemplated within that programme. That is why I stated we will try to obtain changes in respect of that matter. We will continue to seek such changes. As Deputy McEntee is aware, we met the Ward Union Hunt at the time in the schoolyard in Kildalkey——

Deputy Shane McEntee

It has been resolved.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Yes, I accept that and I stated that massive changes have been made.

Deputy Shane McEntee

The matter should be left alone.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I support fox hunting, greyhound racing, coursing, fishing, shooting, and so on, and if those sports were affected, I would have serious difficulties. However, our guests are not here to dictate to me what decision I should make.

Mr. Liam Nolan

Not in the least.

Deputy Johnny Brady

They should not try to do that.

Mr. Liam Nolan

Perhaps we could show members, at first hand, some of the attractions and mechanics of deer stalking.

Deputy Johnny Brady

We are trying to assist our guests.

Mr. Liam Nolan

Exactly.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I am somewhat disappointed that Mr. Murphy is being political in his comments.

Mr. Liam Nolan

I assure the Deputy that it is not our intention to be political——

Deputy Johnny Brady

I would hope not.

Mr. Liam Nolan

——except in the following sense. We have been presented with legislation which, it appears, will have a direct and immediate effect not only on our sport but on the management of wild deer. The latter has wide-ranging implications.

If I could move to the general and away from the political, I will comment on one or two of the specific questions that were posed.

Chairman

I want to confine the remainder of the discussion to a particular subsection. There is a broader debate involved and some 40 Deputies and Senators attended last week's meeting with RISE. However, this meeting relates to a specific topic.

Mr. Liam Nolan

Exactly. A couple of direct questions were posed and I will try to address them. I have no political agenda in doing so.

Deputy Tuffy inquired as to why section 3(2) has been included in the Bill. We do not know. To paraphrase an American politician, it is either a known unknown or an unknown unknown. It will have a specific and unintended consequence. Regardless of what the objective was in respect of hunting deer with hounds in the form and shape of the Ward Union, it has an even more dramatic effect on 4,000 deer hunters and on the population of deer they control.

The Deputy also inquired with regard to the numbers of wild deer in Ireland. The only figures about which we can actually be certain relate to the number of people who apply for and receive licences to hunt wild deer. That number stands at just over 4,000 per annum. People are obliged to send in a bag return at the end of every hunting season. The most recent figure for the latest full-year return — to the end of August 2009 — is that there are just over 30,000 wild deer. In so far as calculating a total population of wild deer, a figure as high as 150,000 has been quoted.

As someone who has been involved with deer hunting and deer management for more than 30 years, I am in a position to state that there has been a dramatic upsurge in the number of wild deer. Through to the end of the 1980s, we estimated a total population that would have been probably slightly less than the current annual cull, that is, somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000. However, there has been dramatic climatic change in the interim. There has been a major increase in the acreage of land under forestry, both that owned by Coillte and that which is in private hands. This has created routes by means of which deer can move easily, silently, discreetly and safely to areas in which they were not previously found.

We have also seen, to some degree, a decline in deer farming. Luckily, some of the better deer farmers have lasted very well. Some of the less successful ones simply opened their gates. We had no control over that matter and it is not an indictment of the deer farming industry. From personal knowledge I am aware that those involved in it operated in a hugely professional way. More power to them because it is a major investment.

Where do we start in respect of numbers? The figure of 150,000 to which I refer seems somewhat excessive. The actual number could be between 80,000 and 90,000. In such circumstances, a cull of the order of 30,000 per year would be appropriate. Be it nationally or locally, we must aim to cull at least one third of the deer population. If we do not control the female portion of the deer population, local herd numbers will quickly get out of control. The bottom line is that our ability to do so will be severely curtailed if section 3(2) becomes law.

Deputy Shane McEntee

How many deer are killed illegally?

Mr. Liam Nolan

I would be horrified by the thought that it could be a further 10,000 to 15,000. However, that could be the case.

Mr. Damien Hannigan

It is unquantified and unknown.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Who is responsible for killing deer illegally?

Mr. Liam Nolan

Unlicensed hunters who do not care about legislation. They hunt at night and use lamps, which is illegal. Quite often, they use illegal firearms. As long as they have a channel through which they can market the venison they kill, we cannot do much about their activities. I again pay tribute to the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the conservation ranger force, which numbers approximately 70. The latter have a huge amount of land to monitor and control and they do the best they can. They could do more if additional resources were provided. However, that is probably a matter for another forum.

Chairman

Deputy Christy O'Sullivan wishes to make a quick comment. I wish to bring this part of the discussion to a conclusion because there is another item on the agenda.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

When I spoke earlier, I confined my comments to the subject matter of the meeting, namely, the stalking of deer. The Chairman is aware that I have my own opinions on this issue and have at different times made obvious my position on the other aspects of the Bill. I asked a question on tourism, its current status, future direction and potential for making it something that could be——

Mr. Liam Nolan

As I am conscious of the time constraints under which we are operating, I will answer briefly. While the deer interests in Ireland have no particular problem with deer hunting or stalking as a tourism amenity, I wear the hat of the Deer Alliance, an assessment and certification body. We have spent nine years developing a programme that allows people to be certified as to their competence. Essentially, our rule of thumb is that the aforementioned certificate of competence should be a prerequisite for the issuing of a hunting licence and that anyone entering the country should have a certificate of an equivalent standard. For example, the British Deer Society has a very high standard, as do its German, Swedish and other equivalents, all of which have high standards of training and certification. Our view is that tourists should have the same standards or be extremely tightly controlled and monitored. It cannot be a question of opening the floodgates and allowing people to hunt wild deer willy-nilly, as there would be severe implications in so doing.

Chairman

As a vote has been called in the House, I will bring this section of the meeting to a close. I believe there is a general appreciation across all parties present of the specific problem raised. We will resume immediately after the vote with a discussion with a delegation from the Irish Farmers Association.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Briefly, the Ward Union hunts a specific deer.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

Yes, it hunts the red deer.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Is the Ward Union aligned with the Irish Deer Society?

Mr. Thomas Murphy

No.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their attendance. The point was well made and the specific issue is well understood. After the votáil we will resume with a discussion with the IFA delegation.

Sitting suspended at 4.55 p.m. and resumed at 5.10 p.m.