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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 16 Nov 2010

Retail Planning Guidelines and Sustainable Local Employment: Discussion

I welcome Ms Margaret O'Rourke, Mr. Michael Walsh and Mr. Adrian White of Scallys SuperValu, Clonakilty, County Cork, who will make a presentation on retail planning and the creation of sustainable local employment.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the representatives of Scallys SuperValu to make a presentation.

Mr. Adrian White

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak. Today we are deputising for Mr. Eugene Scally who is recovering from a recent illness and, unfortunately, is unable to attend. We are here solely to represent Scallys of Clonakilty and not in any other capacity.

Scallys SuperValu, Clonakilty, began in 1983 when Mr. Eugene Scally acquired a building on the Bandon side of the town of Clonakilty in west Cork. Given the economic climate of the time very few people would have thought that a viable business could emerge from such a site in a sleepy west Cork town. However, Mr. Eugene Scally had different ideas. He planned to turn this site into a supermarket and set the foundations for his business and life in west Cork.

Today, approximately 26 years later, Scallys of Clonakilty is to the forefront of Irish retailing. An award winning supermarket, winning prestigious awards such as the national supreme hygiene award, the Checkout "Best in Fresh" awards, the SuperValu national store of the year award 2010 and the BIM national seafood store of the year 2010, to name but a few. Today Scallys is recognised as one of the most innovative food retailing outlets in the country.

Central to the success of Scallys of Clonakilty are the people who work there, the customers who support us and the suppliers who supply us. Currently we employ 130 workers in our store, to whom we are committed to offering sustainable and stable employment. We have built our business on offering our customers a superior level of service, quality, range and value. Our dedicated workforce has been instrumental in our success and for that we are extremely grateful.

At the inception of our new store in 2004, as part of our strategic planning process, we formulated our company mission statement which reads:

Scallys Promise: We take pride in bringing you the finest quality, freshest food. We are passionate about our store standards and customer service. We are proud of our role within the local community. We endeavour to add value and enjoyment to your shopping experience. It is our pleasure to serve you.

Our vision statement reads, "SuperValu Clonakilty strives to become synonymous with fresh food - and organic, natural and local foods in west Cork."

A company's role in the local community can be construed in many different ways. We are fully aware of our dependence on the local community in which we operate our business and for this reason we have always been compelled to give back to the community in return for the support we have received throughout the years, whether it be through local sponsorship of events or charities or through the support of local enterprise and locally-produced goods. In Scallys we believe in buying local products and providing an outlet for local people to purchase these products.

The following excerpt was taken from the John and Sally McKenna, Bridgestone Irish Food Guide, page 121:

Twenty five years of doing the good thing, that's what Eugene Scally and his team have managed to do in Clonakilty. Their modus operandi and their buzz-words are the very polar opposites of how conventional supermarket theory works. Instead, they talk about community, about service, about respect, about the local harvest.

In Clonakilty we are affiliated to the west Cork Leader scheme or Fuchsia brands, an initiative to promote rural development. We believe this type of initiative should be rolled out nationally on a regional basis. Indeed we have enjoyed working together with Leader and the Fuchsia brands as they have been very successful in helping small producers meet all the standards necessary to supply an outlet such as ours. Together we are all committed to ensuring the sustainability of the rural community in which we live. We provide local farmers both organic and conventional, cheese makers and local artisan food producers, with an outlet to sell their goods without the hassle and red tape of dealing with a large multiple type operation.

Today we deal with 55 local west Cork food producers on a direct basis - that is separate from purchasing from the Musgrave group through the SuperValu group - from whom in 2009 we purchased a combined total of €1,809,816 worth of goods. In addition to the 130 employees in Scallys, there are a further approximately 808 employed by these local producers. At Scallys we believe in treating these suppliers in a fair manner, we provide them with a fair price for their goods and we pay them on time for the goods they supply. We recognise the size of these operations and we strive to ensure the sustainability of such enterprises within our locality.

I would like to give an example of the local sponsorship we have been involved with in recent years. In promoting our own local heroes, we encouraged our customers to support local producers and rewarded the customers' chosen national school for doing so. This promotion was facilitated by our value club system and saw us donate a total of €10,000 to local national schools. We have also been involved in the sponsorship of local initiatives and charities such as the west Cork model railway village, local GAA clubs, local Tidy Towns committees, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Clonakilty hospital. As part of SuperValu we are also involved in the sponsorship at a group level of the national Tidy Towns awards, the GAA All-Ireland football championship and the west Cork annual Garda youth awards.

We will not dwell on the finer details of the retail planning guidelines, but simply express some of the worries we have should there be changes to the guidelines in their current format. At present we are very concerned at possible changes to the retail planning guidelines. We fully believe that in their current format the guidelines have struck the right balance in accommodating new retail development. We believe that if the sequential test which favours town first development or the cap which currently limits retail outlets to 3,000 sq. m., it is 3,500 sq. m. in the greater Dublin area, were to be removed it would pave the way for significant out of town retail developments. In our opinion this would be catastrophic for employment and the sustainability of many enterprises in rural towns such as Clonakilty. We believe that large multiple type operations would not offer the same support to local indigenous enterprises and would result in job losses in rural communities. We fully believe that it is vital to protect employment in our small local industries and that by sustaining and creating these types of jobs we are adding to the viability of rural Ireland.

The lack of retail planning guidelines in the UK has allowed huge retail outlets to be developed in strategic locations. This has wiped out many rural towns in the UK. As these outlets dedicate much of their floor space to items other than food, it has resulted in the closure of other types of retail outlets in towns, creating what is now known as the ghost town phenomena. In the UK the National Retail Planning Forum carried out an examination of the impact on local employment of the opening of 96 superstores throughout England and Wales and issued a report. The forum concluded that "each Superstore opening resulted in an average net loss of employment of 276 full time equivalents". The number of UK farm workers also fell by 100,000. The opening of these larger stores would in the long run result in the closure of local shops, the loss of local jobs, less competition and less choice for local people. This concludes the story from Scallys in Clonakilty. We are aware, however, that many other retail outlets both in the SuperValu chain and other independent and symbol group stores have a similar story to tell as our own.

I thank the Chairman and members for taking the time to listen to us and we hope that our views will be taken into consideration when a decision is made on this matter. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

I thank Mr. White for that fine clear presentation, which raises important issues such as local employment, sustainable development and the retail planning guidelines. We will take these points on board. I will call Deputies in the order they indicated.

I welcome my fellow townspeople to the joint committee. They have outlined in no uncertain terms what they are doing for the local community in Clonakilty. By any standards, Scallys SuperValu is a success storey for everybody involved. It is a major team effort but where they really excel is in the service they give to people and by creating sustainable employment not alone for the 130 workers in SuperValu but the spin off employment for 800 people in producing different products right across the board. These producers have been listed in the presentation, but are far too numerous to mention. It is very hard to attract multinational industrial type developments to remote areas, although some multinational retailers are trying to locate in Ireland. I question the prudence of taking that road. Multinationals locate in areas where they can do business and take what they can get from a country. It is much easier for multinational companies to deal with other companies producing en masse than with the small producer. Indigenous businesses have the interests of local people at heart and can do business with small producers. When they deliver their product to the store, they present their invoice and are paid for the goods. That is the secret of how small producers survive. This is an example of how people with local knowledge can help each other. The presentation today shows what can be done locally and I would like to see the model that Scallys has followed rolled out across the country. I can even see great potential for producers to advance further. There are areas here where big farmers do not want to produce in small quantities because they are involved in an entirely different game. I see potential for small producers in the west or the south of Ireland, or wherever, to get going, spread the work further and create sustainable jobs into the future.

I welcome the delegation from Clonakilty, a place I would describe as a model village and very much a brand in itself. Although the presentation today might be seen as being very localised, it is not. This is very much a national issue and is being looked at in the context of the retail planning guidelines. A number of factors are involved. The retail sector does not mean only Scallys supermarket or other supermarkets but involves retailers in general throughout the country. Approximately 290,000 people are employed in the retail sector if supermarkets, shopping centres and high streets in towns and cities throughout the country are included. The retail industry is the single largest employer in the private sector in Ireland. The models of good business in the sector are those which retail indigenous products and materials, such as Clonakilty black pudding or the chocolates of a company such as Butlers which makes and retails its product.

The key point throughout is sustainability, not only of businesses in Clonakilty but of those throughout the country. To pick up on Deputy O'Sullivan's point, one cannot discriminate with regard to the businesses that wish to come into Ireland from abroad. That is the wrong approach. We should invite businesses in from abroad. The issue in question is the type of playing field on to which those businesses come. Without mentioning too many brands, there are types of business models that have become self-devouring. These have developed, not so much in the UK, as mentioned in the presentation, but in the United States. A very famous documentary was made about a particular branded supermarket that cannibalised the local town in which it was located. I am sure the delegates are familiar with this programme. The brand ate up its local town and the local people who manufactured the product ended up seeing their product outsourced to China because of the company's desire to drive down costs.

We will achieve the type of sustainability we require in Ireland if we do not allow that business model into the country. Ireland is a small island that can produce added value in manufacturing, whether with Clonakilty's famous black pudding or other products made in the country. We are still some distance from examining the retail guidelines. There will be a process of consultation and further down the line the matter will come before this committee. I am not so much of the "if it's not broken don't fix it" belief but we should seek to have some means of protecting the existing business model rather than merely protecting existing businesses. In that way we can ensure that new businesses can develop. For this to happen across the retail sector we need to see businesses develop in a sustained structural model.

I am glad to see the delegates from west Cork discussing a major issue, not only for Clonakilty but for all towns in Ireland. I declare an interest in that I am a director of a company that is involved in a couple of supermarkets. I know Scallys store very well and from time to time I am a customer there. It is one of the best supermarkets in the country, which I sometimes envy. It is a marvellous store and I ask the delegates to pass on my best regards to Mr. Eugene Scally. I hope he will recover in full soon.

This is a very serious issue that goes far beyond Scallys SuperValu store and relates to the future of towns in rural Ireland. It is very appropriate that the delegates are present to offer their marvellous experience of a store in a very fine town in rural Ireland which has given marvellous service to the local community, to both customers and local suppliers.

Having set out that background, I wish to put on record that I believe in competition and do not believe in stopping same. However, that competition should happen on a level playing pitch and that is where the crux of the issue lies. I do not believe in superstores descending on our towns, building greenfield operations outside them and sucking the heart out of those towns. That has proved a disaster for rural towns wherever it has happened, in the United Kingdom, clearly, but also in towns on the Continent.

We should hear more about one of the issues involved, namely, employment. Scallys supermarket provides employment for 276 full-time equivalents which is not unusual for stores of the kind we are discussing. However, if a superstore were to be built outside the town in a greenfield operation there would be great trumpeting about major new employment being created. Would the inevitable consequence not be that existing employment would be decimated? This was found in the UK national retail planning forum report which concluded that in such cases the effect on local employment is entirely negative. That is the crucial issue as we consider our planning guidelines. We should not be taken in by major public relations announcements about major "extra" employment because what is involved is major extra profits for multinationals.

I am not against multinationals and I support competition. Multinationals are very welcome here but let them come in and establish stores on the same basis and terms as existing local businesses. If they wish to compete on the high street or in a situation such as the excellent example given of Scallys supermarket, I have no doubt Scallys will take the multinationals head on.

The presentation today underlines what we, as local Deputies, hear from SuperValu stores nationwide. My local supermarket spoke to me about this issue. The retail planning guidelines introduced in 2001 provided local authorities with a comprehensive framework to deal with planning. The figure given by the delegates of 3,000 square metres, or 3,500 square metres in the city, is for a fair-sized supermarket. The delegates mentioned the sequential test by which supermarkets are encouraged to set up in town centres rather than on the outskirts of towns. It is important that we encourage supermarkets into town centres to keep the heart in the towns and keep them vibrant. If a supermarket is built on a greenfield site it will initially create an additional couple of hundred jobs. However, in the following two or three years, the small shops and businesses in the town will lose those numbers, leaving us with a town abandoned by all businesses that will revert to a residential area. The retail planning guidelines, particularly the cap and sequential tests, are examples of best practice planning and I believe the delegation wants us to support their retention. They promote a retail environment which creates substantial jobs - probably an understatement - and sustains a retail environment which enables competitiveness on price. If we end up with only 20 or 30 major supermarkets dotted throughout the country, we will not create competition. Nobody wants that type of development, other than the Competition Authority. If we end up with developments of that size, we will not have competition because they have the market to themselves. The guidelines sustain a retail environment which has enabled competition on price and has facilitated access to a wide variety of stores throughout the country, promoting customer choice and competition.

I welcome and appreciate what Scallys SuperValu is doing in Clonakilty in supporting local indigenous industries. I was very interested to hear earlier about the involvement of the west Cork Leader scheme. I did not hear about this before and would like to hear more about this important initiative. Supermarkets like Scallys support their communities. Scally's supports the GAA nationally, but it also supports local voluntary groups which do tremendous work. In the current environment, it is through all of us working together that we will manage to get out of the hole in which we find ourselves. I thank Deputy Christy O'Sullivan for suggesting the delegation be brought to this meeting because it has made a worthwhile contribution. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, which is chaired by Deputy Penrose, has discussed this issue many times. Today's contribution adds significantly to that discussion in the area of planning. I welcome the presentation and thank the delegation for making it.

I welcome the delegation from Scallys in Clonakilty. I have had the privilege of knowing Mr. Scally, since he established his supermarket in 1983. I come from a family that is a long time engaged in the retail business in south-west Cork. My father, Lord have mercy on his soul, opened a retail business in the rural area of Goleen, seven miles from Mizen Head, at a time when there were no lorries available to bring products from Cork due to the troubles. He had to take a horse and cart 21 miles to Bantry three times a week to bring meal and flour to the people in the Goleen district of west Cork. I know only too well what it was like for that business to survive, yet it still survives in the humble little village of Goleen 90 years since it was first begun by my late father. He brought supplies to Goleen in the troubled years when nobody else brought supplies. People would have starved only for him opening the business. There were times when he had to sew the money into the harness of the horse, because he was attacked on several occasions by groups -----

He must have been making a good few bob at the time.

It was long before Deputy O'Keeffe was reared with a silver spoon in his mouth. What I am saying is that I know only too well what it is like just to survive. I recall the Deputy's uncle coming up to our humble shop in Kilbrown when I was only very small to put in orders for the John Joe Daly firm. I presume the Deputy has shares in that firm always.

Eugene Scally was a breath of fresh air for west Cork when he opened up his business in Clonakilty 20 years ago and the facts on that have been put forward clearly in the presentation today. Without a shadow of doubt, if we took Eugene Scally's business out of Clonakilty, there would be nothing left. He has built up a reputation that is second to none and employs 130 people. He did this long before any Government offices came to Clonakilty. It is a revelation to see how he can compete with Dunnes Stores and the many co-operative creameries all around him, but he survives and continues to provide a good service to the people. We want to maintain such businesses in rural Ireland. Otherwise, I foresee the demise of local villages. Many of our villages have already been wiped out. We must ask ourselves whether we want to end up in a situation like that in England, where people have to travel up to 50 miles to get to a supermarket or petrol station. That would be diabolical.

We must approach the issue in the proper fashion. If we are to allow international conglomerates come in and open up in greenfield sites outside our towns, the towns will die out. I visited Liverpool for a conference about 15 years ago and recall the town centre was completely closed up. People had to travel five miles out of town to where the big developments had sprung up on greenfield sites. As a result, the town centre died. While I am not talking about a town as big as Liverpool, I want the towns and small villages of west Cork to survive. How can a person living in Goleen be expected to travel ten or 20 miles to buy a fresh bottle of milk in the morning or to get the Irish Examiner? The day of the candy shop on the corner is fast disappearing and we must wake up before it is too late. The time is ripe to approach the issue and deal with it in the proper fashion for the betterment of future generations. It will be too late to close the door when the horse has bolted.

I welcome the delegation and thank Deputy Christy O'Sullivan for arranging for it to make its presentation. This meeting is very important given that the review of the retail planning guidelines is under way. In that context, it is important that due consideration be given to those currently in business who anticipate a grave threat from outlets which might be in breach of current sequential tests or the cap on the size of a new outlet. In so far as the cap and sequential tests have been concerned, the current situation has been generally successful. Even 30 years ago, one heard the same argument from small shopkeepers that Scallys makes today. They warned they would be driven from business if a supermarket were allowed to set up in their town. Their warnings did come true.

In the same way, if the sequential test and the development cap are changed to allow more outlets, many extant businesses will disappear. That would be detrimental and have a severe effect on provincial towns. The lifeblood has been sucked out of many small provincial towns already without the need to injure them further.

Providing for the area and space required by a large multinational retailer would mean changing the sequential test which would inevitably result in a dominant position in the marketplace for the retailer, if not a monopoly. This would be to the detriment of local employment and producers as large retailing monopolies, or those with a dominant position in the marketplace, tend to buy in bulk from larger suppliers. In turn, this would lead to a situation similar to that which exists in Great Britain which has become an urbanised society.

Ireland is on the way towards becoming more urbanised. There is no point in hastening that day because it will be to the detriment of society generally. In the years to come the retail planning guidelines will change. It is inevitable because of the shift in population from country to village, village to town and, in turn, town to city. It is a move I would regret inasmuch as the small shops disappeared. One can envisage the day when the large retail outlets will be allowed build their monstrosities outside of towns after the sequential test and the cap disappear.

Thankfully, we have not yet reached that stage. In those circumstances the committee must recommend the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government retains the retail planning guidelines as they are because they suit the Irish disposition and demographics. Anything else would be ill-suited to us at this point in our history.

Mr. Michael Walsh

I welcome Deputy O'Donoghue's comments. We are not against any competition in the marketplace but we would like a level playing field. All committee members have made this clear to us today, which we welcome.

At Scallys we are passionate about local produce. It drives our business and while we need to take a margin, we also see the producers as partners. They also need to get a fair price for their product. As Deputy Christy O'Sullivan knows, our producers after they make their daily delivery will be paid for their previous delivery. We understand our countryside needs to be preserved and that farming is sustainable. These producers get up off their backsides to produce good quality and decent food. We have some of the best food produce in the world yet we sometimes do not shout about it as much as we should.

The Fuchsia Brand, part of a Leader group, brought together many west Cork producers to allow them get their products to market more easily. I accept through the years a little has been going on between producer and retailer. We came around that and now understand the producers' needs. The Fuchsia Brand is a link between the retailer and the producers. Our business knows any product affiliated with the Fuchsia Brand meets all the hygiene and food safety regulations and other accreditations in the food industry.

The Fuchsia Brand has worked closely with Scallys over the past seven years. It has brought delegations from all over the world to the store to show them how local produce can be marketed and sold. Many of them cannot believe a supermarket our size accomodate local produce.

There is a great opportunity for the country to roll out regional brands similar to the Fuchsia Brand. Once the initial hesitation between retailer and producer is removed, the relationship can start to work.

I thank Deputy Christy O'Sullivan for requesting this presentation. The general comments by committee members on the retail planning guidelines review are relevant to Scallys and other indigenous supermarkets. All members accept there needs to be competition but with a level playing field.

I thank the delegation for its presentation.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. sine die.
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