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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 2011

Climate Change Policy: Discussion with Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government

I propose that we discuss the Government's climate change policy until 5 p.m. when we will discuss the second topic, the forthcoming European Environmental Council meeting, until 6 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, and, from the Department, Mr. John McCarthy, assistant secretary, environment division, Mr. Owen Ryan, principal officer, and Ms Petra Woods, administrative officer. I thank the Minister and his officials for their attendance. I advise the Minister that the opening statement he has provided will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I call on the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, to commence I will make a few opening comments. The committee is anxious that the Minister comes here to outline the Government's climate change policy. Members regard this as an issue of prime importance and one on which Ireland must be shown to be fully committed to meeting its internationally agreed targets. We have a responsibility to lead in this area and to do all we can to reduce our emissions while at the same time continue to grow our economy. It is not an easy task and, therefore, it is essential that Ireland has a clear and understandable policy in this regard. We need to know exactly what we intend to do, step by step, in the coming years and the strategies that are being put in place to assist us in doing this. I now call on the Minister to address the committee and make his opening statement.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to meet them today. I very much welcome the opportunity to set out my approach to the development of national climate policy, and I look forward to hearing the views of the committee and to working with it in the coming months and years.

Before I get into the policy agenda, I would like to thank the sub-committee for its co-operation in approving the Supplementary Estimate which the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, presented last week. Fast-start finance is the term applied to the commitment in the Copenhagen Accord on foot of which developed countries undertook to make US $30 billion available to assist developing countries in the period 2010 to 2012. As part of the overall EU commitment to contribute €7.2 billion to the fast-start finance package, Ireland undertook to contribute up to €100 million during the three-year period. Taking last week's decision into account, we have now delivered €76 million towards that commitment.

The object of fast-start funding is to assist developing countries in addressing climate change. As the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, explained last week, it constitutes an important demonstration of good faith by developed countries and acts as a downpayment on the longer-term commitment to assist developing countries in deploying clean energy, reducing deforestation, and adapting to the inevitable impacts of climate change as a result of current and historic greenhouse gas emissions.

I know that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, set out how the additional €10 million approved last week will be invested, but for Members who may not have been present at that sitting, I am happy to repeat that €8 million will be channelled through the Global Climate Change Alliance, which is administered by the European Commission, and the remaining €2 million to the Least Developed Countries Fund, which operates under the 1992 UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. Both funds specifically target least developed countries which are the most vulnerable to climate change, least responsible for the threat it presents, and least able to pay for the necessary adaptation measures.

Last week, I had the honour of representing Ireland at the high level segment of the 17th Conference of the Parties to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change in Durban, South Africa. After what turned out to be, by any standards, a marathon session, I am pleased that the conference ended with a decision that represents a major step forward in mobilising a comprehensive global response to climate change. The nucleus of this hugely positive and encouraging outcome was the decision to establish the Durban Platform for Enhanced Action, a process or roadmap to develop a new protocol, another legal instrument or an agreed outcome with legal force that will be applicable to all parties to the UN climate convention. The new instrument is to be adopted by 2015 and implemented from 2020. The significance of the decision was captured by the UN Secretary General when he pointed to the fact that the roadmap, which is seen as a major weapon in the fight against climate change, for the first time will bring all major greenhouse gas emitters under the one roof.

As the party that proposed the roadmap approach to a comprehensive global response to climate change, the outcome was a major success for the EU and its acknowledged leadership in the international negotiations under the UN climate convention. Key to that success was an alliance which the EU successfully forged and sustained with small island developing states and least developed countries. Work on developing the new instrument will commence next year under a new body, established under the convention, which will be known as the Ad Hoc Working Group on the Durban Platform for Enhanced Action.

In return for agreement on the Durban Platform, the EU agreed to enter a second commitment period under the Kyoto Protocol. It is unfortunate that a number of key countries who are parties to the convention, including the United States, Canada, Japan and the Russian Federation, are not in a position to join the EU and other parties signing up to the second commitment period. EU leadership on the second commitment period ensures the continued operation of the Kyoto Protocol and avoids a gap in the international response to climate change at the end of the current commitment period in December 2012. It also protects the architecture of the protocol for consideration in the context of developing the planned new legal instrument. Further details of the arrangements to mobilise the second commitment period will be developed during the course of next year. Participation by the EU and its member states will be underpinned by internal EU policy and commitments.

From a national perspective, there were important decisions at the Durban conference on agriculture, and land use, land use change and forestry, LULUCF. Since taking office, I have been highlighting the need for more joined-up thinking on agriculture and climate change. After an intensive round of negotiations during the two weeks of the conference, I am pleased that the final outcome included a decision to consider issues related to agriculture, with the aim of exchanging views among parties and adopting a decision at the next conference at the end of 2012. Since the convention was adopted in 1992, almost 20 years ago, this is the first time that agriculture will be addressed in the international climate change process. I am hopeful that the decision in 2012 will lead to a comprehensive international work programme on agriculture and climate change in terms of mitigation and adaptation.

On the land use, land use change and forestry sector, an important decision was adopted on new international rules for forestry carbon accounting in the case of pre-1990 forests. Agreement on these new rules, which will apply for the post-2012 period, followed four years of intensive negotiations and will allow the climate change mitigation benefits of the forest sector and forest products in Ireland to be fully realised.

To conclude on the Durban conference, I should acknowledge that a great deal of the detail on the post-2012 international regime and how it is likely to affect or influence internal EU policy development remains to be worked out. Of particular and immediate importance to Ireland is an anticipated internal EU proposal from the European Commission on land use, land use change and forestry. These developments will have an important bearing on the national climate policy agenda and I will be happy to meet the committee again to reflect on further developments at EU level and in the wider international process.

Members will be aware that on 3 November, I released the review of national climate policy undertaken by my Department. The review is intended to create a basis for a national debate on further policy development with a view to meeting our low carbon commitments and objectives in the medium and longer term. Against the background of the National Climate Change Strategy 2007-2012, it sets out our current position on meeting our mitigation commitment for the purposes of the Kyoto Protocol and the major challenge we face in further reducing emissions in the period to 2020 and beyond.

Much of the national climate debate in recent times has been of a very difficult and polarised nature. It is my view that this will not serve anyone well and that we must seek to build broad support for the steps that need to be taken if we are to meet our binding obligations under EU and international law; play our role within the EU and at the wider international level to combat dangerous climate change; and achieve our aspirations as a progressive and competitive player in the emerging global green economy. The review seeks to form the contextual basis for such a debate. It is an important stock-taking exercise in terms of the progress that has been achieved to date in reducing national greenhouse gas emissions and the deeper reductions to which Ireland, as a member state of the European Union, is already committed in the medium and longer term.

The basis for any discussion or debate of future policy must be the national greenhouse gas emissions profile. It is somewhat unusual in a European context due to a number of factors, including a very high level of agriculture emissions, mainly associated with ruminant livestock; a relatively low proportion of emissions falling within the EU emissions trading scheme and a low population density coupled with a tendency for dispersed settlement that encourages car ownership. In 2010, provisional estimates showed that the agriculture, transport and energy sectors accounted for 71% of total national greenhouse gas emissions. When we probe deeper into that figure and exclude emissions covered by the EU emissions trading scheme, agriculture and transport alone made up about 69% of remaining emissions, with a further 17% from the residential sector.

This "non-ETS" sector, as it is known, is where Ireland has a target of achieving a 20% reduction on 2005 emissions by 2020. There are also intermediary targets for each of the years from 2013 to 2019. The challenge is significant and serious and must be dealt with in a manner that has regard to our specific national circumstances. Lessons from other countries must certainly be considered, but it would be folly to think that what works elsewhere provides an easy or appropriate solution for Ireland. We must make progress on the basis of what will work best for Ireland in meeting our greenhouse gas mitigation obligations in the medium and long term, and in pursuing new growth opportunities in a low-carbon future.

The review shows that Ireland is on track to meet its commitments in relation to the Kyoto Protocol. In line with the national climate change strategy, this is being achieved through domestic emission reductions supplemented, on cost-effectiveness grounds, by carbon units, including units acquired through the flexible mechanisms provided for in the protocol.

I fully acknowledge that the economic downturn is also a contributory factor in this regard, as evidenced in the significant drop in emissions in 2009. In issuing its most recent greenhouse gas emission projections last April, the EPA made no bones about stating that Ireland cannot rely on a recession to meet its greenhouse gas mitigation obligations in the 2013-2020 period. The challenge is formidable. An immediate priority is to fully implement current policy and achieve all that is expected in terms of carbon reductions. However, that will not be enough, and a ‘distance-to-target' in 2020 of the order of 4 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent remains, even in the most optimistic scenario.

To assist members in appreciating the scale of this gap, the building regulations recently introduced are expected to result in an annual saving of about 0.2 million tonnes per annum by 2020, the equivalent of just 5% of the projected gap. Given Ireland's unique profile and the ever growing penetration of renewable resources in our energy system in particular, increases in economic growth would not necessarily go hand in hand with increases in emissions. That said, there is a valid concern that a return to improved economic growth will inevitably lead to an increase in national greenhouse gas emissions. Addressing this prospect is a policy development priority.

In our efforts to return to stronger economic growth, it is of the utmost importance that we embed rigorous sustainability requirements in economic and environmental terms. If we get our growth strategy wrong, we run the real and significant risk of locking ourselves into an environmentally unsustainable future that will undermine our credibility on environmental grounds and our competitive position in the medium and longer term. The deep cuts in emissions that will be required in the period to 2050 represent a huge challenge for Ireland, but an early and effective transition to a low-carbon path holds out the prospect of a real opportunity to demonstrate environmental credibility and achieve competitive advantage in the emerging global green economy.

The review was a stock-taking exercise, a state of play assessment at a particular point. In issuing the review, my intention was to move the focus on to the next steps towards meeting our commitments and pursuing our national objectives. In that regard, I have announced a three-pronged approach to develop the necessary policy mix to support an ambitious but realistic national mitigation agenda. First, an independent analysis - to inform policy development - will be carried out by the secretariat to the National Economic and Social Council. As well as setting out a range of mitigation policies and measures that can support the effort to meet national targets to 2020, the analysis will address the longer-term requirement for deep emission reductions across the economy in the period to 2050. I will initiate public consultation early in 2012 which will allow all stakeholders to engage in the policy development process. In addition to these two specific steps, I intend to continue to pursue further mitigation initiatives through the Cabinet Committee on Climate Change and the Green Economy, as well as with the Departments directly responsible for the sectors in which the most significant emissions occur.

I see this meeting as the first of what I hope will be a series of working meetings where we seek to develop a progressive and robust low-carbon agenda for Ireland. On that basis, I want to be direct and clear with the committee on the fact that there is no easy answer to the steep greenhouse gas emission reduction trajectory which developed countries must follow in the period to 2050. The review I published last month aims to ensure that our efforts, this committee's and mine, to initiate and lead a constructive national debate on climate policy development, particularly in the context of wider economic renewal, have a clear and informed reference point. The review is factual and I fully intended that it should not seek to influence the orientation of policy in any direction. There are no easy answers to the challenges we face, and my intention is to ensure that the ultimate decisions on the way forward will be taken on the basis of a fair hearing for all stakeholders and will enjoy the broad national consensus and support of an enlightened and progressive society.

I am determined to make progress on our transition to a low-carbon future, with a firm focus on the challenges and opportunities now and in the period to 2050. I intend to pursue progress as a matter of priority but not in narrow haste. Just as there are no easy answers, I am not convinced that there is a monopoly of wisdom in any one body but that a successful way forward lies in structured dialogue on the range of views across society. My direct appeal to the committee today is to join me in seeking to draw on those views and facilitate a positive and fruitful dialogue to put Ireland on a path that is sustainable in environmental and economic terms - a path which we can acknowledge with pride in terms of playing our part in a comprehensive global response to climate change and meeting our responsibility to the well-being and prosperity of future generations.

In the committee's deliberations, the question of climate legislation will inevitably feature, which I welcome and encourage. It is a key issue and I sincerely hope the divisive and damaging debate that occurred around the Climate Change Response Bill 2010 will not be repeated. Much has been said and written in recent weeks about climate legislation and I take the opportunity to set out my position. The language in the programme for Government is clear - we must develop policy first and underpin it with legislation as required. Attempts to legislate in the absence of policy have proved controversial and counterproductive in the past and have, if anything, distracted from the real need to cut emissions sooner rather than later and to plan in advance how we are to deliver on a long-term low-carbon vision for Ireland.

In recent months, I have met Government colleagues in an effort to encourage a new impetus to cut emissions. We have made some progress in this area, but more must be done. Many of the easier options have already been implemented and factored into the national projections. Closing the gap to our 2020 mitigation targets remains a challenge for Ireland and a commitment on the part of the Government. I appreciate the concerns among some that without legislation we will make no progress on either mitigation or adaptation policy. I also understand the wish to follow some of our European partners in developing flagship legislation in this area. I am duty-bound to consider the national situation. Our national emissions profile is different from most other EU member states and any new processes must take account of that reality. We do not have the broad base of support that exists in some other member states for this type of legislation. I want to be clear about what can be achieved and how it can best be achieved, before setting an institutional architecture in legislation.

In summary, I want to be absolutely clear on climate legislation. I fully intend to follow through on the commitment in the programme for Government to bring forward climate legislation within the lifetime of this Government, but it will be on a transparent and inclusive basis, informed by a robust assessment of the policy options. I have set out my approach to ensure that we develop the necessary policy mix to support an ambitious but realistic national direction towards a low-carbon future. Robust institutional arrangements will be essential to support the decisions we make on the way forward, but a clear understanding of how we propose to meet our commitments and pursue our objectives is essential to identify an appropriate support structure.

Our individual and bilateral deliberations on climate policy development revolve around matters of profound importance to the future of our country and its people. Transition to a low-carbon future is not a discretionary option. The issue is not whether we make a transition, but rather how we do it and how we ensure a speedy and successful outcome. Our deliberations and the decisions we need to make, and will make, are urgent but they must be taken carefully after full consideration of all relevant national issues, as well as our wider international obligations as a responsible society. I look forward to our collaboration as the national debate advances and matures in the weeks and months ahead.

Thank you. As we have agreed to conclude this session at 5 p.m. and since we have a packed attendance, I ask members to be cogent and clear in their comments and questions to the Minister.

I thank the Minister for his detailed opening statement on this complex area. One thing on which we would all agree is that climate change is not a myth, but is here to stay. We have experienced events here which have been deemed to be once in 100 or 150 years events, yet they appear to occur year after year, unfortunately. Will the Minister enlighten us on the Department's thinking with regard to whether there is a cost neutral means for citizens, householders, businesses, and agriculture to meet our targets? If we do not meet our commitments and targets, will a financial penalty be imposed on the citizens?

With regard to the public consultation outlined in the Minister's opening statement, has the Department considered rolling out a public awareness campaign on climate change? Most citizens are not engaged in the debate on this. It is something they read or hear about, but they do not think about the future impact, whether financial or environmental.

We certainly seek to progress policy on the basis of the least cost to the citizen. However, we cannot be immune to the fact that there will be considerable pain if we do not move quickly and early. We are opening the debate now knowing that we are going to meet our Kyoto Protocol commitments, but between now and 2020, we must meet more ambitious targets on mitigation and adaptation. These targets are even more ambitious up to 2050. In moving towards a low carbon economy, there are competitive opportunities economically for Ireland that will set us apart for certain industries and businesses. While helping our economic activity, they will also help us to meet our environmental obligations under climate change.

We cannot answer definitively on the extent of the cost to the citizen, but we have to start to take the necessary steps across different sectors, particularly the three main sectors of agriculture, transport and energy, to ensure we have made a head start between now and 2020. Part of that process will be informed by the strategy I have outlined, by getting the necessary policy options available to us through the NESC secretariat, and in parallel with that we will have the stakeholder consultation as well. Feeding into the debate in 2012 will give us a good range of options on how we can meet our targets. We have had campaigns in the past and we will certainly keep that under review.

We know the IFA and the national representative organisations are engaged in the campaigns, but we need something for the citizen. Something like the Forum on Europe would be a consideration.

I accept that. It is a very constructive suggestion. There is much information available, but it might not be in the type of language that people will easily understand, so perhaps we can look at that.

Will the Minister ensure local authorities are prepared for the effects of climate change, which have contributed to extreme weather events such as recent flooding in Dublin and west Cork? Can the Minister explain his statement on 3 November that climate change is not a priority?

I said that climate change legislation was not my priority, but policies were. Policy options will be part and parcel of the 2012 process. We will then underpin policy with legislation. We are effectively bound by EU policy at the moment, and that is legally binding, so we have obligations to meet. I know there is a perception that we need to have our own national legislation, and I am moving to ensure this is met in the programme for Government. In conjunction with all other stakeholders, local authorities will be engaged in an adaptation programme which will be outlined in early 2012.

There is a certain contradiction between what the Minister is saying and what is proposed to be done. I think the Government's policy has changed since it was elected and is quite different from what the Government parties were stating when they were in Opposition. We have to look at this issue in the context of the severity of the climate change crisis. It is probably the most serious issue affecting humanity. Hundreds of thousands of people die every year as a result of climate change. A report recently published by the International Energy Agency basically stated that we have a five year window to deal with this issue. All of the predictions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have been met, or have been reached more quickly than anticipated, so the clock is ticking on this issue.

People are very worried that we might delay in taking action on the problem. A strong call has been put out that we need the heads of a Bill early next year, and this committee should strongly request this. The Minister has said that he wants to do a bit more research. We do not need to do any more research on this. It is certainly not a basis for delaying the Bill itself. An all-party report was carried out in October 2010 on the issue. We have much information on it, so now we need to move things forward. If we delay and lose this year in a legislative sense, we will be playing catch-up in our efforts to reach the targets by 2020. I do not think the Minister will be in a position of fulfilling what he said he would like to do, which is to implement this change during the lifetime of this Government. We do not have the time to play around with this issue.

Why has the Minister's policy shifted? I will not bore him by reading out quotes from his party when they were in Opposition, but the policy has changed. I do not think that is good enough and I ask that the heads of a Bill be sent to us early in the new year in order that we can start working on it.

I am sure the Deputy will be busy with other things over the coming year. I have been in office for nine months, and I have done more in that time to inform policy development and mainstream the economy and the environment than my predecessors did in 30 years. The new protocol at international level is what is urgent. We have been centrally involved with our EU partners in ensuring this happened in Durban. We got an outstanding decision in Durban, which was led by the EU and in which Ireland was a major participant. We have a got a breakthrough for the first time in agriculture in terms of the measures needed and the programme to be developed. We will only get a global solution by engaging globally on this issue.

Policy is as important as legislation in my view. We already have legislation with which we have to comply. This legislation consists of the legally binding agreements with the EU that we are obliged to meet. I said in my opening statement that legislation will be brought in to enact a climate change Bill in the lifetime of the Government. That is what we agreed in the programme for Government. In the meantime, we will have policy development, which is ultimately the only way that we will meet our 2020 obligations. That will involve everybody and will ensure we have a measure of consensus at the end of 2012 that we did not have at the end of 2010.

I think the Minister said previously that he feels the Oireachtas committee Bill is the template for this. He has just referred to cross-party co-operation and so on. Surely he should be coming back to this committee and giving us stuff to work with in order that we can begin the legislative process earlier. I do not understand why he is delaying, unless it is a delaying tactic.

I refute that completely. I will do this in a measured way. I will do it by including everyone rather than excluding people. People might not agree with the Deputy's view or my view, but they are entitled to their view. We will have a parallel stakeholder consultation and an informed, open debate about these matters in 2012, and we will also have expertise in the NESC secretariat working the policy options that we must face to meet our 2020 targets. At the same time, we will work with our EU partners and all our Departments to ensure we put measures in places under the mitigation and adaptation agenda. We can then look at legislation to underpin all that. That is my approach.

I thank the Minister for allowing us to examine the open statement and for coming back to this committee quickly after the request was submitted. Deputy Nash cannot be present for this meeting, but he moved the motion requesting the Minister to attend as soon as possible.

I recognise the work the Minister has carried out since coming into office and the consultation process he has announced, but I would ask him to reconsider it. There is an opportunity to give Ireland an advantage through developing the climate change Bill, and this committee should see the heads of a Bill early next year. I do not believe we have anything to fear. If the committee received the heads of a Bill, it would help the legislation. The committee could work with the Minister, alongside public consultation, to deliver on legislation as soon as possible. It is important that Ireland has flagship legislation. The consultation process should certainly take place, but I do not believe the committee or the Minister have anything to fear if we develop a twin-track approach to this by bringing the heads of a Bill before the committee while carrying out a consultation process.

There is no issue with targets as such because it is outlined in the programme for Government that we stay within the EU targets for 2020. I am asking the Minister directly to reconsider his position and bring the heads of a Bill to this committee as early as possible next year.

I do not share the Deputy's view with regard to bringing in the heads of a Bill immediately. I want to see what policy options we have, and that legislation will underpin policy options and how we are to implement them. Bringing in legislation first and then wondering what policies we will have to implement is putting the cart before the horse. I am going to do it the other way around. I want to hear the views of all stakeholders, not just a few. I know there are a few active people in the area, some more than others. We need to ensure that all stakeholders are consulted. It was not always the case, but we will give them an opportunity, in a structured way, to have full engagement in this process and examine what we have to do as a country to implement policies that can ultimately be underpinned by legislation.

Quite an amount has already been published, not only by the Fine Gael Party but also by former Deputy Liz McManus. I disagree with the Minister that this is a limited group. As far as I am concerned, this is a topical issue and there is huge interest in it. People have considered the issues and the effects not only in Ireland but internationally. I certainly disagree with the Minister as far as heads of Bills are concerned and I will be pressing the Minister further on that.

Just to clarify, I will be introducing the heads of a Bill, I hope, at the end of 2012, arising from the stakeholder consultation and the work that will be done by the NESC secretariat. However, I will not be bullied by any organisation or individuals into making decisions. The tactics that were used in the past failed miserably to achieve our national climate change objectives.

I thank the Minister and his officials for coming along today to brief us on the European Council meeting. I also welcome the Minister's positive and common sense approach to climate change. It is much required and very welcome. I also welcome the engagement with the stakeholders. As the Minister said, it is important that we hear the opinion of each and every stakeholder, not just those who shout the loudest. All people have a significant contribution to make.

The scene has changed significantly since this was discussed a few years ago. I come from a rural constituency, and at that stage the contribution of agriculture to the economy and to this country was virtually airbrushed out. We were living in good times - and, as we now know, way beyond our means - and the role of agriculture was significantly downgraded, so much so that in fact there was a silly suggestion that the cows in the field, similarly to the jarveys' horses in Killarney, would have to go around wearing nappies. Most people did not realise then, but certainly do now, the importance of agriculture to the economy, to job creation and to getting us out of the mess we are in. There is a major role to be played by agriculture and a major opportunity for increased production around the world, not just in Europe but also in south-east Asia and the BRIC countries whose economies are now developing. This is an opportunity we must grasp with both hands. We must be careful that any policies or statements we make do not have a negative impact on agricultural production in this country. It is our one shining light and our one real hope of survival and recovery into the future.

From that point of view, I welcome the Minister's decision to be cool, calm and collected and to seek the thoughts and opinions of all sectors in a reasonable and reassuring manner. Some of the suggestions the last time were absolutely outrageous. If there is to be a clash - there is always a clash, because somebody has to suffer when new directives and proposals are introduced - production and the interests of this country must be put first. I am sure that in consulting with all stakeholders we will find the best way forward in the interests of the country and of the world with regard to climate change.

We have received, as I am sure the Minister has also, e-mails from across the country seeking a dual approach and asking for the heads of a Bill to be introduced immediately. I ask the Minister not to panic and to continue the way he is going. He must engage not only with this committee but also with everybody else, and I am sure that ultimately he will have the backing of everybody in the committee when he puts forward what I hope will be sensible, reasonable and sustainable proposals that will carry the country into the future.

Before the Minister replies, I must point out that there are people watching this online and that the meeting is getting some degree of media attention. If members have mobile phones switched on and this is creating the type of distortion we are hearing, it does not matter what is said here of any value, it will not be recorded. Mobile phones create massive disruption, which is detrimental and damaging to the committee's own engagement with the Minister. If members have mobile phones, I insist that they either remove them from the room or turn them off.

With regard to the three objectives - this is related to what Deputy Daly said earlier about changing policy - I have shifted in my ideas, and I make no apologies for this. I have shifted in order to make sure we have a prospect of success. There are mainstream economic and environmental considerations, and we must also take account of food security at a time of global food crisis. That is one of the areas in which we achieved a major breakthrough in Durban. Ireland actually led the way with our European Union partners in ensuring not only were we open to a second commitment period but also that food security issues were centre stage, along with climate change matters, when going into the negotiations. There must be a balanced approach, not just an extremist approach. That is why some efforts failed in the past; we were too extreme. I will certainly ensure that we bring people along with us through stakeholder consultation and consider all the policy options. They will be difficult ones. I will not in any way be reluctant to take those policy decisions in order to achieve our 2020 objectives. However, at the same time, there are opportunities here that we should not ignore. Ireland must become a leading competitive, low-carbon economy. In January, I will be publishing a document that will set us on the path to a green economy, particularly in the area of green public procurement. We will be playing our part. Around €15 billion worth of goods and services are procured by this State on an annual basis and we will be examining ways in which to implement policies that will bring about the greening of that procurement process to help us along the way to meeting some of our targets.

I assure Deputy Coonan that there will be a balanced approach to food security and climate change. We are in the midst of a global food crisis, with starving populations, but at the same time, mitigation and adaptation measures are urgently required to meet our 2020 targets. However, our approach will be balanced, and everybody will be consulted.

Before I bring in the next speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Am I correct in stating that he gave an indication that we may see the heads of a Bill by the close of 2012?

That is my objective.

With regard to the three-pronged strategy the Minister is talking about, the independent analysis that has been done by the economic council - which has a lot on its plate at the moment, as the Minister can well imagine-----

It is the National Economic and Social Council, not the economic management council.

The Minister's comment clarifies that, because those guys have a lot to worry about.

It is a different council.

Will the council bring in expertise in this area to carry out the analysis, or does the Minister see that competency within the council itself?

The other issue is the public consultation process. We are all aware that different players in a consultation process carry different weights. Organisations such as IBEC and the IFA are serious players - we deal with them every day of the week. That is not to say that Friends of the Earth is not a serious player also; it is. However, we must ensure there is a balance to the representation and that it is not those with the most money, who can throw presentations at the Minister, who are heard the most. What consideration has he given to balance in the consultation process?

The Minister mentioned putting policy before legislation. My understanding of this concept is that policy can often find its way into the House not through direct legislation but through statutory instruments or secondary legislation. Is the Minister indicating to the committee that the process of policy identification will manifest itself through implementation of statutory instruments and secondary legislation?

I strongly welcome the Minister's categorical statement that he intends to work very closely with the committee on these issues.

The necessary expertise and whatever else is required to assist the NESC secretariat will be made available. The Department is committed to providing whatever supports the NESC requests in terms of resources and expertise in order to allow it to examine all policy options. We will publish all of the submissions received through the process of stakeholder consultations. It will be an open, transparent and inclusive mechanism. Friends of the Earth or Christian Aid, for example, will be able to make a submission and everybody will know its position. I will be very open in terms of policies and submissions from all quarters. We will not be influenced in any way by whoever has the largest cheque book.

On policy instruments, I envisage that we will bring forward policy through this process in 2012. I do not see legislation as an issue next year in order to move forward. It will take the bones of the year to conclude the comprehensive consultations and discussion of policy options envisaged. As part of this, we will update the committee on a regular basis. We should use 2012 effectively by engaging with the process, before coming to conclusions about statutory instruments or legislation. However, I assure the Chairman that, in parallel with this process, I will be keeping pressure on the relevant Ministers to ensure they bring forward policy positions in their own Departments in line with our targets.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. What is the proposed timeframe for making submissions? There are major concerns among the public about these issues. I am sure colleagues have, like me, been inundated with queries in recent weeks and months. I agree that we should not rush into legislation. The Minister referred to heads of Bills, but I would be more concerned that there be ample opportunities for interested parties to make submissions and that those submissions be adequately dealt with. The committee could play a pivotal role in any decisions made. At the very least, there must be ongoing communication between the Department and the committee. This is the appropriate forum in which to debate these issues and we should be consulted at different levels.

I also agree that there is an increasing recognition of the issues related to agriculture and afforestation. However, it is regrettable that some of the key countries, including the United States, Canada, Japan and the Russian Federation, are not engaging on these matters in the second Kyoto Protocol commitment period.

On the consultation process, I envisage that submissions will be sought from the end of January and accepted in a two or three month period, probably until the end of April. These submissions will inform the work of the NESC secretariat in bringing forward various policy options. The consultation process and the submissions that will be made are part of the essential work we have to do on policy options. Members should bear in mind that it will be a two-way process. I am sure the committee will invite delegations to make presentations on these issues, which will allow it to keep us informed of any issues, insights and suggestions it may wish to raise.

By mid-January 2012, I will have conducted a climate change review and we will have had a very successful outcome to our involvement in an EU delegation in Durban. In addition, we will have published our action plan on green public procurement, the first such plan to be produced by a Government. Furthermore, a renewed framework on sustainable development will be published in the coming days and put out for public consultation between now and the end of March. That will present another opportunity for the committee's work programme for 2012. A great deal of work is ongoing behind the scenes. As such, I take the opportunity to thank my officials and others for their hard work. We are now ready to put that work to the committee and the public for discussion and consultation.

This is the most important discussion we have had in the committee all year.

It is my Christmas present to the Deputy.

Yes. There have been urgings for everybody to stay calm on this issue, but the reality is that there can be no calmness because it is happening now. We cannot remedy this problem unless we take affirmative action. I understand the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security in the last Dáil drafted the heads of a Bill on this issue. I do not understand why the Minister cannot publish the heads of a Bill while simultaneously pursuing the consultation process. I hope that process will be completed within a reasonable timeframe as, unfortunately, time is not on our side.

In regard to agriculture, we are all aware of the difference between this and other countries in that a huge part of our carbon emissions are produced by that sector. As a representative of a rural constituency, I am aware that there is no point in deluding ourselves. We must be honest with the agriculture sector in indicating our determination to push ahead with strong climate change policies and legislation. I am of the view - others may disagree - that the very poor crops of 2008 and 2009 were the result of climate change. Huge tracts of land were flooded on those occasions, and once land is flooded, it is damaged for three, four or five years. We must face the facts. I say this as a firm supporter of agriculture and a representative of a largely rural constituency.

We are behind other countries in addressing these matters, including the neighbouring countries of England and Scotland. In the North, the Minister of the Environment, Mr. Alex Attwood, is pushing ahead with climate change legislation. Will the Minister consider approaching the issue on an all-Ireland basis? We can set up customs posts and checkpoints to stop many things from passing over the Border but we cannot stop climate change. It is not the same as diesel.

(Interruptions).

We had a good time reopening some of the roads in the 1990s, at a time when many others were showing no interest. However, we will not pursue that matter today. The important point is that we push ahead with action in this area. We are clearly out of step with other countries in this regard.

I am concerned that having spent €86 million in purchasing overseas carbon credits, they went, as I understand it, to a private interest in the State and were subsequently sold on at a profit. The Minister will correct me if I am mistaken. What has happened to these carbon credits? We are spending a great deal on this element of climate change strategy and, given our obligations, the cost will undoubtedly increase. It is a no-brainer that we should also seek to tackle the issue from the other end.

In regard to awareness of climate change issues, Deputy Niall Collins referred to the possibility of having regional fora similar to the consultative forum we had before. I would support any such initiative. However, there is already huge awareness and as such, Oireachtas Members could well be behind the public on the issue of climate change. The recent incidents of flash flooding in the Dublin area provide an example in this regard. It is clear that a large section of the population is aware of the impact of climate change. If there is a need for further action in respect of this matter, then we should take the lead. The committee must be to the fore in the context of developments in this regard during the next 12 months.

Any carbon credits purchased by the State are in its portfolio. None has been sold or given away.

So we still have them.

I am glad to provide the Deputy with an assurance to the effect that none has been sold or given away. They remain under our economic sovereignty, wherever that might be at present.

I stated that we must remain calm because people can engage in all sorts of knee-jerk reactions. We all know what we have to do but we are not sure how we are supposed to do it. The policy proposals must be brought forward in order that we might decide how we should proceed. The targets are in place and we have already signed up to the EU's legally binding commitments in respect of reducing, by 2020, the level of greenhouse gas emissions which obtained here in 2005 by 20%. There is already a law in place which we are obliged to implement and with which we must to comply. If we do not do so, fines will be imposed on us. It is a misnomer to state that there are no existing laws in this area. The position has been presented in a mischievous way.

We are not lagging behind Scotland, England or Wales. When responding to the proposals put forward by the Northern Ireland Minister for the Environment, Mr. Alex Atwood, MLA, in respect of climate change and on whether legislation should be passed, I understand the UK committee on climate change stated that it would be crucial, in the first instance, to put in place a series of policies and incentives in order to drive down emissions. That is the position I am taking.

Not so long ago I was involved in a discussion with a senior executive from a major multinational which has its operation in the constituency I represent. He referred to a system of modelling devised at Harvard University which indicated that, regardless of how the figures were considered, there was going to be either an economic or an environmental crash as a result of issues relating to sustainability. Even in the context of the worst case scenario, we could not have foreseen the economic crash that has occurred. It is impossible to envisage just how bad would be an environmental crash of that magnitude. However, we must attempt to envisage what would happen if such a crash occurred because we need to be in a position to respond to the kind of problems that would arise. It is already clear that large parts of the areas along our coasts could be under water in 20 or 30 years' time. We are not discussing lengthy periods in respect of this matter. Most of us understand that this is an extremely serious problem. What is at issue is how and how quickly we respond to it.

The Minister stated that there are things in this country which are different and referred to the dispersed nature of our population, the agriculture sector, etc. There is no doubt that we would all want to ensure that we have food security. People are generally supportive of the agriculture sector. Now that we know there is a problem regarding the dispersed nature of our population, is it intended to deal with this issue in the context of the overall response? Will the Minister indicate whether he met representatives of the IFA and IBEC to discuss the nature of those organisations' concerns in respect of this matter? It is important for us to understand the position in this regard if we are also to understand the responses the Minister is considering.

If I understood what he said correctly - I hope he will forgive me if I have not done so - the Minister appears to have some objections to sectoral targets, which would be at odds with the European Union's position. If he does harbour such objections, will he indicate the particular sectors involved and outline why the targets are not achievable? In general, it is possible to state that an issue arises in respect of agriculture. However, will the Minister indicate what are the other issues involved and what are likely to be the responses in respect of them?

Will the Minister outline his views on the withdrawal of Canada from the Kyoto Protocol? I would have expected Canada to have signed up. In the aftermath of the Durban climate change conference, is the Minister of the view that what the United States has agreed to is likely to give rise to the kind of response we would hope would be produced? Domestic policy in the US is quite hostile in respect of this matter and only 40% or so of Americans even accept that there is an issue with climate change. Consequently, there is a major problem in this regard.

The Minister referred to the lack of broad-based support. There are many matters in respect of which there is a lack of such support and we dealt with one of them yesterday. There does not appear to be a difficulty in dealing with some sectors when there is a lack of broad-based support. Was the Minister referring to broad-based support within a particular sector or within society in general? Deputy Stanley is correct in stating that in many ways members of the public are ahead of us in respect of climate change.

There is a broad-based requirement for an understanding of the issues and to bring forward policy propositions with regard to how we are going to meet our targets. The threat in respect of climate change is global in nature and there will be a need for a global response as a result. All we can do is develop - in conjunction with the European Union - policies that are essential to allowing us to meet our targets. I would love to be in a position to answer all the questions that have been put to me but I would be obliged to abandon my plan in respect of the NESC secretariat's study and the parallel stakeholder consultation. That plan is fundamental in the context of the issues to which members refer. Everyone is aware of the objectives we are obliged to achieve. However, there is a lack of agreement in respect of how we should proceed. I established this process for the purpose of putting together a broad-based approach - whereby environmental issues would be mainstreamed in the context of other social and economic considerations - in order that we will be in a better position to obtain an agreement.

Previous efforts in this regard proved disastrous because attempts were made to legislate for sectoral targets. This allowed people to take the State to the court on a monthly basis and tie it up in knots. As a result, nothing could be achieved. That is not the way we intend to proceed from here on. In the coming days I will publish the framework for sustainable development, which will strike a balance in respect of social, economic and environmental considerations. It will also indicate what we must do, in an integrated way, across all Departments in order to draw up the necessary policy options in respect of mitigation and adaptation measures. This will inform the debate here and elsewhere in the context of what we will be doing with regard to the parallel consultation in the new year.

There is one other issue to which Deputies Catherine Murphy and Stanley referred and on which I wish to comment. When I had the occasion to receive representatives from Glanbia recently, I was heartened and surprised by their acknowledgement that demand from various parts of the world for the company's product reflects a demand for products which are sustainable. Ultimately, this demand will drill its way down to primary producers. If rural communities want to survive, they will eventually realise that they will be obliged to reduce carbon emissions further and to meet the requirements of food producers for their customers. This will have to be the case because we are operating in a competitive, low-carbon economy for sustainable agricultural products. It is a major breakthrough for the food companies to drive the particular agenda to which I refer in order to meet demand.

Ireland is a small country and its greenhouse gas emissions are already split between those covered by the EU emissions trading scheme, ETS, and the remainder of the economy. In the case of emissions which are not covered by the ETS, the current climate change strategy is based on a least-cost approach across the sectors concerned. Primarily, these are the agricultural, transport, commercial and residential sectors. I have no plans to change this approach. However, I remain open to ideas in respect of the full range of issues relating to climate policy. The outcome of the consultation process and the findings that will be contained in the study being carried out by the NESC secretariat will be very interesting. When the former has been concluded and when the latter emerge, we will then be obliged to reach conclusions on the policy instruments we are going to put in place. Our actions in this regard will be based on an informed debate on the policies we will be obliged to implement in order to achieve the necessary outcomes in each of the sectors. I am committed to bringing forward legislation to underpin what emerges in this regard.

What is the Minister's view with regard to the US and Canada?

Everything gets tied up with an election and the US has electoral considerations coming down the tracks. The US election will have happened before the new protocol comes into being and before it is agreed by 2015, which I hope will make a major change. In the case of the Canadian situation, it is regrettable that the Canadians did not stay on board.

We are progressing well and I hope everybody will have one, if not two, more opportunities to contribute. Before I call Deputy Nash, Deputy Kevin Humphreys indicated he wishes to contribute. I note Deputy Terence Flanagan is indicating he also wishes to contribute. Before I call Deputy Flanagan, I will bring in Deputy Kevin Humphreys to ask a brief supplementary question as he has to leave early.

Thank you, Chairman. I apologise for having to leave the meeting early. While listening to the Minister's remarks, I thought of the concept of thinking globally and acting locally. I have one direct question for the Minister. He indicated that he does not want to bring forward the heads of a Bill early in the new year. Could he publish a timeframe and road map setting out clear specific targets to be hit along the road and in that way we would know when a climate change Bill would be introduced and whether we were the achieving the targets set? There is a great deal of concern in this regard and the public is ahead of us on this. We need to send out a message that there is a definite timeframe with targets set and when there will be an outcome in this respect.

I will consider that and will come back to the committee on it.

I welcome the Minister and his team and acknowledge his personal commitment to the area of climate change. I welcome the outline he gave us on the consultation process and the inclusiveness of it in that all NGOs and interested parties will have an opportunity to put forward their case, which is to be welcomed. Everybody wants to have a fair and balanced Bill. As the Minister said, there is a huge opportunity for Ireland to become competitive and to have a leading edge as a low carbon emissions economy. Is there any economy or country he would like to see Ireland emulate? Will he outline how climate change and a carbon budget tie in together?

I am considering the role of carbon budgeting in regard to how we deal with our policy options and that will be part of the informed debate we will have in 2012. In regard to the development of a low carbon future, I indicated earlier that we will publish a green public procurement action plan in January 2012. We will have public consultation next week in terms of the framework for sustainable development, which will set out the sectors across each Department where the challenges exist and the policy options to inform people on these issues. That will be concluded, hopefully, by the end of April 2012 and it will be part of our programme of work that will be completed in advance of the sustainable development conference in Rio de Janeiro at the end of June to which the Heads of State will be invited. The seriousness with which sustainable development issues are being considered will be demonstrated by the attendance of the Heads of State at that conference. The policy initiatives alone will demonstrate that we are serious about the economical opportunities in a low carbon economy.

Is there any economy towards which the Minister would like to see Ireland aspire?

The Scandinavian countries are well ahead of us and we can learn much from them, especially from the Danes and the Germans who have been supportive and strong in driving all other member states of the EU towards meeting the objectives they have achieved, which are also our objectives.

New Zealand is seen to be a green clean economy and its agricultural sector fits in with that concept. We have a good deal going for us in that respect.

I am pleased to confirm that the New Zealand Embassy here and their departments are engaged in consultation with us on how we can meet some of the challenging targets in agriculture.

I apologise to the Chairman and the Minister for the lateness of my arrival. I trust the Minister was not offended - it was not anything personal. I am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss this very important issue at the committee today and this is a very timely discussion.

The Minister referenced the fact that we are bound by 2020 EU targets and we all recognise and accept that. I have a concern about the track it appears we are taking, given the Minister's reported earlier comments. We sometimes, culturally, have a fairly frivolous attitude towards the implementation and transposition of European Union law, regulations, directives and so on. We saw the response to that in some of the antics at a committee meeting yesterday in respect of attitudes to septic tank inspections. If there are any further delays in legislating in terms of a climate change Bill, I fear we will not only see a repeat of the sorts of antics and resistance we saw yesterday but probably an even more serious situation down the road in terms of getting people to the table to accept the need for legislation and what that will involve. EU law in many respects here has been brought into disrepute in terms of the septic tank issue and European Court of Justice judgments which have meant that we have to legislate for a new regime in regard to inspections and so on. I am on record as having said here and elsewhere that my preference is that we would adopt the twin track approach and introduce the heads of a Bill early next year to ensure the appetite of this committee for hard work is satisfied. We are not fearful of that work - we want to engage in it and embrace it.

It seems from the Minister's reported earlier comments that the heads of a Bill will not be brought forward early next year. I understand, recognise and accept that the Minister is entitled to pursue a process of consultation with the National Economic and Social Council next year but there is no reason that cannot take place in parallel with the process of legislation. I accept that the Minister addressed this point earlier but I wanted to put that on the record.

There are many vested interests who will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table and I fear the Minister will only be permitted to move as quickly as the most obstinate stakeholder will allow. There needs to be a determined political will around dealing with this issue. We talk about EU targets and sometimes confuse those with legislation but they are entirely separate. The early introduction of legislation and permitting us to discuss it in a considered framework is something we have never done here, that is, plan properly for the future. We need to do that and need a legislative framework to allow us to do that. I ask the Minister to reconsider that approach while respecting his position on it. I ask him to take full advantage of the new reform mechanisms introduced in the Oireachtas in recent times where we have had the early delivery of the heads of a Bill, which we discuss in an informed way and thus have an input in the process. I have no difficulty with a parallel process taking place but I would like them to occur in a twin track way, as per the recent commentary around it. A good deal of hard work was done on this by the previous Oireachtas, including by the Minister, then a Deputy, in coming to a consensus on climate change legislation. The Minister referenced the electoral cycle and the pressures the American Administration may be under. I would not like to see us under that pressure again. A good deal of solid work was done on climate change.

Can we expect the introduction of a carbon budget any time soon? It was practice in recent times that this was the approach we would take. It is a positive approach that would enable us to plan better for the future in a sustainable way.

It is very hard to bring forward the heads of a Bill when the policy discussion has not been concluded. What would I put in legislation in parallel with having a policy discussion? Am I not expected to get an outcome from a policy discussion first before I know what will underpin that policy in legislation? That is my dilemma. I understand from where the Deputy is coming but I cannot legislate before we have an outcome to the policy deliberations because I do not know what I would put in the legislation. I would be operating in vacuum in that respect. I have the experience of having been through this process with my predecessor, Mr. John Gormley, and it ended up in a shambles possibly because of the electoral issues the Deputy mentioned but there were also other issues in that an extreme and narrow-focused view was taken. I want an all-embracing, mainstream approach that includes the economic, social and environmental considerations of policy.

Next week this committee will get a great opportunity in terms of a detailed body of work that has gone on for two years when I publish the framework for sustainable development for public consultation. I encourage the Chairman to ensure there will be a much better understanding of the policy issues and our challenges arising from that consultation process and that document.

I learned a little from what happened in Copenhagen. It was chaired by the current Commissioner on the environment, Commissioner Connie Hedegaard, and it ended up in a shambles. They stood back and took stock but they had no friends at that stage. They developed relationships with the smaller states and the least developed countries and members saw the difference post-Durban where the European Union had partners. They had people in the room who were prepared to back the issues on which the EU was leading. They were doing all of that in Copenhagen but nobody was backing them because they did not have the groundwork done or the necessary partnerships built up with those groups of states. The end result was that when we went into the last meeting in Durban 120 states out of 192 were backing the EU. Ultimately, the big countries had to take stock in terms of whether they would be blamed for another collapse of a conference and for the fact that they were not taking climate change responsibilities in their countries seriously. They had to answer to the electorate in their countries and they blinked because the EU led the charge due to the groundwork done in recent years post-Copenhagan.

Regarding the infringements from the European Union, which is a subject close to my heart, at the start of 2010 my predecessor, Mr. Gormley, had 32 infringement cases imposed on my Department arising from cases taken to the European Court of Justice. It was a scandal that a so-called environment Minister who had so-called credentials-----

I must ask the Minister to refrain from commenting on people who are not before the committee.

They have many other arenas to comment on what I am doing. I do not have many opportunities, Chairman, and you will have to forgive me when I get carried away about a scandal that went on which involved exposing taxpayers to environment judgments against our country and which my predecessor did not see his way to make sure they were addressed. I have reduced them to 15 in nine months and I am making steady progress to get that into single figures by the end of February. I am glad the Chairman gave me the opportunity to explain that.

I am glad the Minister responded. At our very first committee meeting I discussed that very issue with the Minister's colleague, the former Minister of State, Deputy Penrose. Some credit is due to the Minister and the previous Minister in terms of addressing those issues, which were a stain on our Administration.

I reiterate the call by my colleague, Deputy Humphreys, for a road map in terms of the promulgation of legislation and the consultation process to ensure that all of those involved have confidence that this process concludes sharply. As Deputy Stanley and others stated, we are in a position yet again where the general public are ahead of the curve and we are responding to that. I take on board everything the Minister said and I appreciate his frankness.

I give you a commitment, Chairman, to come back to members in regard to a road map.

I have that noted.

I welcome the Minister and his statement because there was confusion in terms of the difference between policy and informed action, and publishing a Bill for the sake of it, which is what was done in the past. When the previous Bill was initiated it was not thought through because the requirement went up from 20% to 30% by 2020 when the Kyoto Protocol requirement was 13% in 1990. We are great for passing laws in Ireland but passing laws that we cannot implement is not a way to develop legislation.

I welcome the Minister's methodology in terms of going about that by consultation. I do not know if there is a scientific value whereby we can adjudicate what is or is not necessary in this regard. There are different schools of thought on what the protocol identified in terms of the scientific element. I would like to know if there is a scientific way for Ireland to examine the pros and cons of this in terms of science in that if we do A or B what will be the result. It would be then up to this committee to take an informed decision on that and determine how we can progress.

Some people criticised the Durban agreement in that it did not go far enough because it is not legally binding until 2020. It would be advisable if the committee was given information on what was agreed at Durban and how it will affect Ireland because there is an argument that because it is not legally binding now, and will not be until 2020, it will leave us open to having much more to do once it becomes legally binding. That is the purpose of this committee and there might be some expertise around the table that could be used in that regard. However, we must consider what we can do in the meantime, not as a committee but as a Government, to educate the public on what they can do in this area. We have a fine agriculture industry but it was against the previous Bill as it went through the Houses. I am aware the committee on agriculture in the previous Dáil opposed the Bill at the time. We would not like it if what this committee proposed was ignored by the Minister. We would ask what we were doing sitting here. That is what happened in the previous Government. I would not like to see that happen in the term of this Government. This committee was set up to say to the Government that what it puts forward might be worthy of consideration but the committee on agriculture in the previous Government was not given that courtesy. A good deal went wrong in that regard.

There is little point in being able to say we produced a Bill. The Minister has said that all of the stakeholders will be included but in the meantime a process of education should begin now because the people can do something about climate change. I could do it now by switching off my computer, which is one of the worst offenders in that regard. We can all do something in terms of climate change.

As soon as the consultation process is announced I hope the committee will commence hearing the views of all stakeholders and start the process of drawing conclusions on what will work best for Ireland. Ireland is in a unique position vis-à-vis other member states of the European Union and countries outside of the EU. I suspect we will have to come up with some unique policy propositions by the end of 2012 that will be underpinned subsequently by legislation.

To clarify the matter regarding Durban, there is an agreement that what we have agreed will be agreed in 2015 as part of the consultation and commenced in 2020.

I apologise for being late but I have been issued with a copy of the Minister's statement. I add my support to the sensible and pragmatic way in which the Minister is approaching this issue. People on one side, both internationally and domestically, say that we should have legislation and targets set immediately while others say we should have full stakeholder buy-in and pragmatic mechanisms to deliver our targets. Only this week one major international player, Canada, stepped out of the Kyoto Protocol. That must be a concern internationally but we should take account of our economic competitiveness as well as the targets we set to achieve reduced carbon emissions.

The previous Government, in a rushed phase of action in its dying weeks, issued a climate change Bill that caused consternation. We have identified agriculture and farming as one of the main growth sectors that can help our economy to recover and have set targets in Harvest 2020 that I hope we can achieve because that will be good for our citizens and our country. There are pragmatic people in the Irish Farmers Association also who understand that climate change legislation will be needed and the way the Minister and the Department is approaching it now is more inclusive and achievable. We should not set targets unless we have realistic mechanisms on how those targets will be delivered. There was much hysteria a number of weeks ago when the Minister announced he was undertaking a policy review. It is but a policy review and allows adequate time for proper consultation with all stakeholders, from all sides of the argument. Accusations were made that the Government was walking away from its climate change obligations, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I welcome the extensive consultation programme we are entering. The Minister announced that the National Economic and Social Council would undertake the study. I invite anybody interested in this area to make a submission. The Minister might have clarified that submissions are still welcome from anybody who wishes to make them on this important issue.

I wish the Minister and the Department well because this is important legislation. It will have to be set down at some stage very soon, but we need to make progress cautiously with the support of the relevant stakeholders. There will be debate and disagreements but, ultimately, we need to find compromises that are acceptable to achieve our targets, while simultaneously protecting our competitiveness and the prospects for economic growth.

I agree with everything Deputy Paudie Coffey said; I do not believe I have to respond.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. I was concerned when I read the heads of the Bill would not be brought forward as early as anticipated, but I am reassured by the Minister's welcome comment that he intends to have something by the end of 2012. With regard to his points on policy, providing for the involvement of all stakeholders represents a very level-headed and welcome approach.

I used to ask how Ireland, being so small and with such a small population, could make much difference in tackling climate change in the grand scheme of things. Having thought about the matter in more depth, I now believe we need to lead by example. We have an opportunity to fix problems and do everything we possibly can, bearing in mind there is only so much we can control in the grand scheme of things because we have no control over the impact of the sun on our climate and atmosphere. However, where we have control, we should be taking it.

On the Minister's consultations with stakeholders, what is the Department's thinking on the impact of the production of energy saving technology? There is a discussion taking place on whether the energy generated by windmills is offset by the impact of their production on the environment. This should be compared with the impact of the production of solar energy technology. I understand from my not very in-depth scientific brain and my reading that solar energy technology production has a lower impact than windmill production.

There are three areas that will present challenges for the economy and the State generally in meeting its targets, namely, agriculture, transport and energy. Energy efficiency and renewable energy policy will feed into the debate. The policies implemented will have an impact not only on our energy requirements and ability to meet our energy needs but also on our energy targets, particularly our renewable energy targets which are fairly onerous and ambitious and must be met by 2020.

The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, is fully engaged in this process. At sectoral meetings I have had with him, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, I noted that, notwithstanding our engagement in this process, they are under no illusions that they must continue to make proposals to meet their Departments' emissions reduction targets. They have started to identify how we can make early wins in meeting some of the targets without actually waiting for the conclusions of the process.

I agree totally with the Deputy that it must not be presented solely as a climate change agenda for a small number of people to have a conversation about in various national newspapers but as an opportunity for the economy. In decarbonising the economy and presenting Ireland as a competitive low-carbon economy, the Irish will respond if they see opportunities. They will respond even more if they see they are not only availing of economic opportunities but also accounting for essential environmental considerations, provided there is a balance between the two. The identification of opportunities that will lead to a low-carbon competitive economy is critical. The work done in the coming year will feed into that process. Ultimately, people will be a lot more informed and there will be much more consensus as to where we need to be in meeting the targets to be achieved by 2020. On achieving this consensus, we will be able to determine, from the policy menu, the best options for delivering on the agenda.

I will make my closing comments, to which the Minister might respond. When I became Chairman of the committee, with its very broad remit, I did not want to go through the motions regarding what had been done by the previous Administration to engage with sectoral interests concerned about climate change. If the committee is to meet, it ought to move in a specific direction. I was never of the view that we should give people a hearing or a day out and then send them home again solely in order to tick something off the work agenda. The stakeholders share this view.

There are a couple of points that have not been raised that we ought to examine as we proceed with the process. The first concerns measures on offsetting. I met representatives of the Irish Road Haulage Association last week or the week before and they are obviously very concerned about the carbon tax. Their suggestions are very interesting. They were considering the possibility of charging a carbon tax on services in the same way as VAT is charged on services. We are inviting representatives to appear before the committee. They have a number of very positive proposals which would be to the betterment of the economy. Apparently, many hauliers are buying their fuel outside the State, at a cost thereto. If we were to implement similar measures to those implemented in Belgium, we would not only be generating revenue but also taking some very positive steps.

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, mentioned smokeless coal in the budget last week. With regard to offsetting, if the industry was making a contribution to offsetting measures, through afforestation and water schemes in countries in Africa or other developing nations, for example, we would be in a better position. We must consider the difficulty at a global level. Ireland cannot tackle climate change and global warming on its own. A recent report by the EPA contains some innovative ideas that would not only be cost-effective but also economically sound in terms of offsetting. I hope these will be raised at the committee.

With regard to comments on public opinion made by a number of Deputies, the public is a little like St. Augustine in that it is saying, "Lord, give me climate change policies now but do not give them to me specifically."

That is a good description.

We saw this in the debate on septic tanks. An appalling arrangement has resulted in once-off housing becoming the bane of the countryside. There is a septic tank for every such house. The Minister has introduced measures to tackle the phenomenon of every household having its own effluent treatment system in its back garden. We have witnessed NIMBYism in the response to this issue.

Deputy Brian Stanley's commentary on cross-Border measures was very positive. On our visit to the North early in the new year we should examine the proceedings of committees in the Northern Ireland Assembly to determine whether we are duplicating their work and we should share information with them. Ultimately, we would be doing well were an action to emerge from today's meeting to put in place a roadmap. The Minister has been a Member of the Oireachtas for much longer than me but I refer to the great nonsense of the publication of White Papers, Green Papers and even Bills for which one still awaits the enabling and enactment of certain sections. While it is the easiest thing in the world to publish a Bill, the hardest thing to do is to get it enacted into legislation. For instance, sections of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 still remain to be enabled by local authorities. The critical point is to have a roadmap that will contain specific, measurable targets that will show to everyone that progress is being made. Part of the process would entail the Minister and the joint committee co-verifying this on occasion but I am hopeful in this regard. I make a strong request to the Minister that the construct of a roadmap on his intended direction on this issue will be laid before the joint committee.

The Minister put some other suggestions to the joint committee with regard to material coming before it and I would be happy to take them on board. However, to conclude this summary, the development of a roadmap on the direction being taken on this issue would lay down a benchmark and would demonstrate progress is being made. As for heads of Bills, White Papers, Green Papers and so on, I worked in the education sector before becoming a Member of the Oireachtas. I recall that a White Paper on education was published in 1990 and I still await its implementation.

The Chairman has given a practical view of the future direction in respect of climate change policy, which I welcome. The practical nature of his comments over the past few minutes is very much in line with my thinking. I will repeat to the Chairman my comment to Deputy Kevin Humphreys that I will revert to the joint committee with a roadmap and will be glad to so do. There is no monopoly of wisdom in the Department or anywhere else with regard to this complex issue. We must bring people with us and I will try to do this through the process I have outlined. I want to work with the joint committee on the aforementioned roadmap to achieve, within the lifetime of the Government, the objectives it has outlined to the people. Moreover, this will be done in a practical way that will include social and economic considerations, as well as environmental considerations. The first leg of this process is the publication for consultation of the framework for sustainable development, which will appear shortly. A great body of work has been done in this regard by many people over the past two years and the fruits of this work will become evident within the next few days. The question of domestic offsetting is under consideration in the Department and I also will revert to the joint committee on proposals in this regard.

Is the Minister's paper available online?

The Minister's presentation to the joint committee this evening will be made available online.

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. The joint committee's consideration of this topic is concluded for this meeting. While we had been scheduled to commence discussions on the forthcoming European Environment Council meeting at 5 p.m., I will try to begin earlier. We will suspend for ten minutes to notify some of those who currently are absent.

Sitting suspended at 4.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.45 p.m.
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