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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 4 Feb 2010

North-South Co-operation in Education: Discussion.

Sa chéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom fíor chaoin fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Oideachais ó Thuaidh, Caitríona Ní Ruadháin MLA, agus an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta ó Theas, an Teachta Parthalán Ó Caoimh. Tá an Chomhchoiste um Feidhmiú Chomhaontú Aoine an Chéasta ag súil go mbeidh díospóireacht forleathan againn ar scéimeanna oideachais ar fud na tíre. Tá mé ag súil leis an díospóireacht sin.

I warmly welcome Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA, Minister of Education, Northern Ireland, who is from the west like me, and Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, Minister for Education and Science. I welcome their respective officials, Mr. Paddy McDonagh, assistant secretary, Department of Education and Science, Mr. Éamonn Murtagh, assistant chief inspector, Department of Education and Science, Mr. Micheál O'Fiannachta, assistant principal, Department of Education and Science, Mr. Paul Sweeney, permanent secretary, Department of Education, Northern Ireland, and Ms Maura McCusker, director of equality and all-Ireland directorate.

Before we commence our discussions on North-South co-operation in education, I formally record the support of this committee for a very successful and hopefully positive outcome for the ongoing talks in Northern Ireland. I have no doubt that through determined leadership a resolution is possible and that this in turn can bring hope and confidence to the people of Northern Ireland. Finally, a social, cultural, economic, stable and prosperous Northern Ireland can be achieved under the institutions established under the Good Friday Agreement.

We turn our attention now to the subject matter before the committee today, North-South co-operation in education. I am very pleased that the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, are with us today to outline from their respective perspectives initiatives currently under way in terms of North-South co-operation as well as perhaps, to share some ideas for further enhanced co-operation, or to indicate any obstacles in the way of such co-operation.

This committee is very keen to hear the progress being made on the comprehensive joint study on North-South co-operation in education and science.

I warmly welcome Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA, and all our colleagues. With that, we shall open the proceedings by asking the Minister for Education, Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA, to address the committee.

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

Go raibh maith agat agus ar dtús cuirim fáilte chuig an process san oileán seo agus idir an dhá oileáin.

I thank the Chairman for his welcome as a Mayo woman to a Galway man. It is nice to be here and it is a very important time in the peace process for this island and the neighbouring island. What emerges from the negotiations is very important and I hope we can reach agreement so that there is a better island for all of us. I thank the Chairman for his comments and I shall convey his good wishes back to the North.

When the institutions — the Assembly, the North-South Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council — recommenced in May 2007, all the Ministers in the Executive faced unique challenges and opportunities within their Departments, with local Ministers accountable to local people making decisions.

Nuair a cuireadh tús leis an rialtas cineachta, bhi dúshláin agus deiseanna éagsúla roimh na hAirí ar fad sa Choiste Feidhmiúcháin thar na ranna éagsúla rialtais. Bheadh Airí áitiúla, a bheadh freagrach do dhaoine áitiúla, ag glacadh cinnti. Seachas mar a bhi amhlaidh le hAirí faoin riail dhíreach, bheadh daoine áitiúla ábalta teacht ar Airí áitiúla agus níos tabhachtaí ná sin go mbíonn siad amuigh sna pobail.

One of the principal challenges facing education was the need to reform a system put in place more than 60 years ago and still in place today. We now have an opportunity to truly transform our system in the North of Ireland. I have been undertaking a radical programme of change and improvement across the whole education sector in the North. The inequalities inherent in the rigid system of education, which had changed little in 60 years, could no longer be tolerated. I set out an agenda of change which would seek to remove educational underachievement and deliver excellence, not for the few, but for all, placing all young people at the core. As a result, the 11-plus examination has now gone. It is many moons since we had the equivalent here in the South. There is now no state-sponsored testing of children and I am sure that all of us in this room agree with that.

We intend to build a modern and flexible education system, with interconnecting policies which are fit for purpose in the 21st century. We have 1,278 schools in our system. A small minority of those are attempting to block change and hold the education system to ransom, but we will not allow this to happen.

Central to achieving our aims is the need to derive the maximum benefit from co-operation between our education sectors in Ireland. There is so much good practice that we can share across this island. There is enormous potential for joint working and we are keen to realise this. It is a priority for me that our two education systems work together and harmonise to share best practice and tackle common problems.

Tá an oiread dea-chleachtais ann ar féidir linn a chomhroinnt — agus atá a chomhroinnt againn le beagnach tri bliana anuas ó ceapadh mar Aire Oideachais mé. Ach thiocfadh linn cur leis an gcomhoibriu atá á dhéanamh againn agus sin go díreach ba mhian liom a dhéanamh.

There is a great deal of co-operation in education, both formally within the North-South Ministerial Council and informally through a range of contacts and initiatives, and I want to continue to encourage both strands. In the formal arena, the North-South Ministerial Council recently celebrated its 10th anniversary and I attended an event in Armagh in recognition of this. In the education sector much progress has been made across the four mandated areas of educational underachievement, special educational needs, school, youth and teacher exchanges, teacher qualifications and teachers' superannuation.

I believe firmly that children, young people, parents and teachers in Ireland should be treated equally — there is no justification for inequality and there should be no obstacles to mobility. The North-South Ministerial Council has sought to make this a reality and I welcome this. However, there is much still to do and both Departments are committed to effective and productive engagement to strengthen co-operation further.

The Middletown Centre for Autism in County Armagh is a ground-breaking North-South project. The services provided by the centre have the potential to greatly improve the educational opportunities of all children and young people with autism in Ireland by working in close co-operation with other key services and the wider education sector. It is funded on a 50:50 basis by both Departments and is under joint management.

The centre currently provides a research and information service and training and advice for parents, teachers and other professionals. So far, this has benefited more than 2,300 individuals. I welcome the lifting of the DES pause in funding, and I look forward to the full and complete roll-out of services, including an educational assessment service and learning support service, as soon as possible.

In addition to providing facilities and services for children with autism at Middletown, our Departments have engaged regularly on initiatives to tackle autism. Last November we held an autism conference on enabling communication, attended by some 400 teachers, parents and educational professionals from across Ireland. This followed on from a very successful joint conference, "Education through the spectrum", held in Croke Park in April 2008. I cannot explain the dynamism witnessed at that conference, in the coming together of people from all the different parts of this island. There was a real buzz about the event.

Through the North-South Ministerial Council, we have taken steps to reduce levels of educational underachievement and raise standards, particularly among those children who face the greatest barriers to learning, such as Traveller children, newcomer children and those with special educational needs. I recall that when the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, visited Downpatrick, rather than holding our meetings in hotels we held them in schools and educational centres. We held one in De La Salle, Downpatrick, where both of us as Ministers found the presentations to be really good. We brought school leaders together from across the island to share good practices and make presentations to us.

The programmes of work undertaken by the educational underachievement working group on attendance, retention, literacy and numeracy will serve to improve provision across Ireland. In November 2008 the two Departments jointly hosted a North-South conference in Cavan, which I was privileged to attend, on the teaching of numeracy in primary schools. If we do not get it right at primary level the problems just move on to post-primary.

Last March, we held a joint conference on best practice in Traveller education in Newry. Again there was great dynamism at that conference, which I also attended. Later this month there will be a joint conference on numeracy in the post-primary sector in Enniskillen. Later this year, because of the enormous focus on literacy and numeracy, an all-island children's book week will target children with little or no tradition of reading at home, or who have limited access to reading materials. A task force has been set up to examine the particular needs of Travellers in the North, and the chairperson will be a woman from this part of Ireland. I am delighted that there will be colleagues from the South present and as I have indicated, we are working very closely with the Department here.

The reconstituted working group on teacher qualifications is due to hold its first meeting in the near future to agree a programme of co-operation focusing on teacher education issues generally. The standing conference on teacher education, North and South, SCoTENS, continues to make a valuable contribution to teacher education research, conference activity and funding of the North-South student teacher exchange programme. I had the pleasure of addressing the seventh SCoTENS annual conference in Malahide last October, on the theme, "Reflective Practice: the Challenges for Teacher Education".

There was a great dynamic when teachers came together from across the island. Both Departments are liaising closely with a view to facilitating provision in the North of preparatory courses for the Irish language qualification requirement for teaching in schools in the South. Through the NSMC, much work has been done to inform teachers who wish to transfer to work in the South of the pension options available to them. A variety of additional publicity activities are taking place this year.

In recent years there has been a range of exchange activities at all levels of the education system. Our inspectorates have undertaken regular exchanges, including trial paired exchange visits. They recently held a joint workshop to report on the success of the exchange programme and agree a programme of future exchanges. Those people availing of exchanges through the North-South exchange consortium have found their experience to be of significant benefit to their personal development. I visited a school in Warrenpoint that had a pairing of inspectors, and the school found it very useful. I hope we continue and intensify that work.

While the work of the North-South Ministerial Council reflects the formal areas of co-operation in education, there is a significant amount of other work which goes on between the two Departments. A joint study has just begun which will scope all areas of current co-operation to give an overview and assessment of the key themes and patterns of current and recent North-South cooperative activity. It will then identify agreed themes for potential future co-operation, with a costed programme of action focusing on clearly defined benefits for the education sector. A draft interim report is due in June this year, and Deputy O'Keeffe and I are due to receive the final report by early 2011.

Tá an teanga beo i dTuaisceart na h-Éireann. Last Friday I was at a celebration to commemorate 40 years since the establishment of the Belfast Gaeltacht and the North's first Gaelscoil, Bunscoil Phobal Feirste. We have come a long way since that first group of five committed and enthusiastic Irish speaking families established a Gaeltacht community on the Shaw's Road in Belfast. Bunscoil Phobal Feirste owes its very existence to that group of parents who had the courage and vision to decide they wanted their children to be educated in Irish, and founded the school. Although the figures are not available for the past 40 years, in the past 25 years more than 8,000 pupils have passed through the school.

In 1999, my colleague Martin McGuinness, MLA, became the Minister for Education in the North. During his period in office, Mr. McGuinness reduced the viability numbers required to establish new Irish-medium schools. This change has seen the number of children able to avail of Government-funded Irish-medium education more than double. The number of grant-aided schools has increased from eight to 22, and units from two to 11. Since I took up office in 2007, there has been a steady increase in those educated in Irish in the North. There are now 2,253 pupils attending Irish medium primary schools, with a further 681 in Irish medium primary units. There are 561 pupils in Irish medium post-primary schools, with a further 145 in Irish medium post-primary units. The number of Irish medium youth groups is also increasing. We recently opened a wonderful new Irish-speaking centre in Derry, with the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

Unfortunately, the needs of a significant number of Irish speaking primary school children are not being met due to a lack of post-primary education through Irish and this is something I am exploring with Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta. This is a statutory duty for my Department. We are doing everything we can to ensure that this need will be met. As well as approving the development proposals relating to Irish medium nursery provision, seven new Irish medium preschool playgroups have received funding from my Department since 2007. These are located right across the North of Ireland — in Belfast, Limavady, Magherafelt, Ballymena, Newry, Cookstown and Kilkeel. The total number of Irish medium preschools now stands at 29, with a total of 410 children in attendance. We also have three new nursery units in Derry, Armagh and Belfast and three new primary schools in Glengormley, Crumlin and Derry.

There is a scarcity of Irish medium teachers, and we are working closely with the Irish Government on this. However, we approved additional places for the Irish-medium primary education degree programme, with the result that overall intakes for Irish medium courses have increased by 70%, from 30 in 2003-04 to 51 in 2009-10. This increase in pupil numbers supports a greater desire to meet the needs of those demanding education in Irish. Last year, my Department completed work on a wide-ranging review of Irish medium education provision. The review produced 24 recommendations aimed at developing the sector and providing high quality provision and outcomes for children. I would like to thank the Department of Education and Science here, because it played an active role in that review. We are working closely with it to develop a curriculum, because there is little point producing material on our own when there are only 5 million people on the island and a small percentage work through Irish.

An Irish Language Act for the North remains one of the key outstanding issues from the St. Andrews Agreement. The two Governments need to fulfil their duties in order to resolve this issue. I was at the meeting of the British-Irish secretariat, as were the Taoiseach, Mr. Martin McGuinness and Mr. Nelson McCausland, and language was one of the issues raised with our Welsh and Scottish counterparts. There are language Acts in Wales, Scotland and this part of Ireland, but we do not have one in the North. It is an outstanding issue for a society coming out of conflict. The best way to deal with that issue is to legislate for it.

I am very keen to remove obstacles to mobility for families in Border areas. This is particularly so in respect of school transport admissions to schools. I have raised this matter with the Minister for Education and Science and am pleased that our officials are now giving serious consideration to these matters.

We have made progress on North-South co-operation in education across a wide range of areas. As part of a recent restructuring exercise in my Department, an equality and all-Ireland directorate was established to give a clearer focus to our equality agenda and to maximise the benefits of an all-island approach to education. I realise that there is much still to be done and I hope the joint North-South study will point the way to future areas of collaboration. It is good to have Ms Maura McCusker with us today as she is heading up that survey. This is Mr. Paul Sweeney's first week in the job as permanent secretary, and it is also good to have him with us today. There is much work to be done, but I hope the joint North-South study will point the way to future areas of collaboration. We must continue to work together, to expand co-operation to all areas, thus fulfilling the aspirations of the Good Friday Agreement and the St. Andrews Agreement. Sin an méid atá le rá agam. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Ta mé lán sásta teacht chun labhairt leis an gcoiste seo faoin obair atá ar súil agam féin, ag an Aire, Caitríona Ruane, agus ag ár Ranna. Is é atá idir lámha againn ná comhoibriú a chur chun cinn i réimse an oideachais faoi scáth na Comhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas.

We all endorse the Chairman's support for a successful outcome to the talks in the North. As this is my first appearance before this committee as Minister for Education and Science, I welcome the opportunity to join the Chairman, members of the committee, the Minister, Ms Ruane, and other colleagues from North and South to consider co-operation in the education sector under the auspices of the North-South Ministerial Council.

This meeting also affords me the opportunity to outline the main areas of North-South co-operation in education between my Department and the Department of Education in Northern Ireland and to outline the formal North-South Ministerial Council processes and other arrangements that operate in that regard, including an important new study on co-operation that is now getting underway. I shall also refer to the ongoing co-operation between my Department and the Department for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland, although it should be noted that co-operation in that area does not come within the ambit of North-South Ministerial Council structures.

The general context for co-operation between our two Departments is that the North-South Ministerial Council meets in the education sector to make decisions in regard to co-operative activities in a number of agreed areas. My Department formally engages with the Department in the North at ministerial level under the auspices of the North-South Ministerial Council to advance co-operation in four main areas: special education needs; educational underachievement; teacher qualifications and mobility; and school and youth exchanges. In the normal course, two such ministerial education sectoral meetings take place each year to consider developments and progress in those areas. Education issues are also considered at North-South Ministerial Council plenary meetings. There is ongoing liaison between officials in the relevant policy areas in our two Departments to progress co-operation in the agreed areas.

The Department for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland has responsibility, inter alia, for further education and training and higher education in the North. My Department does not formally engage with the Department for Employment and Learning within North-South Ministerial Council structures due to the provisions of the Belfast and St. Andrews agreements, which designate the specific sectoral areas for North-South co-operation. However, my Department has been involved in co-operative activities with that Department at official level on a number of issues. Moreover, there is a considerable degree of co-operation between individual colleges, North and South.

Within my own Department, there is a dedicated North-South co-operation unit. The principal function of the unit is to take forward co-operation through the North-South Ministerial Council. The unit co-ordinates bilateral contacts with officials in the two Departments in the North. This unit is also involved in developing, supporting and managing joint funding for a range of programmes and joint initiatives designed to increase mutual understanding and promote closer co-operation. A number of these extend beyond the island of Ireland, involving co-operation with education authorities in Britain, the United States, the European Union and other countries and institutions with a view to maximising the positive contribution they can make to North-South co-operation.

In regard to the four agreed areas for co-operation in education under the auspices of the North-South Ministerial Council, I shall now outline some of the current issues and recent achievements in these areas. The main focus of North-South co-operation in special education has been on the development of policy responses across the range of special needs and on identifying the scope for collaboration in the provision of highly specialised services. The main development in this area of course has been the Middletown Centre for Autism in County Armagh. The centre is a jointly funded initiative by the two Departments aimed at supporting the promotion of excellence in the development and harmonisation of education and allied services to children and young people with autistic spectrum disorders.

I appreciate that the pausing of the funding for this project last year caused a degree of uncertainty for all involved in developing the project. At the December 2009 plenary meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council, the Irish Government announced the lifting of the pause on capital funding for the Middletown centre and the North-South Ministerial Council requested both Ministers to prepare an updated phased multi-annual plan for the future development of the centre, in conjunction with the board and taking account of international best practice and the development of autism services on the island of Ireland since the centre was established in 2002. I look forward to continuing to work with the Minister, Ms Ruane, in preparing the new phased multi-annual plan for the future development of the centre in conjunction with the Middletown board.

Regarding the 2010 budget for the centre, my officials are at present discussing this issue with their counterparts in the Minister, Ms Ruane's, Department. I would like the centre to have certainty in regard to its budget for the next fiscal year and I have asked my officials to ensure that this work is completed as quickly as possible.

Our two Departments jointly organised a conference on autism spectrum disorders in Armagh in November, 2009. This conference had a practical focus, showcasing good practice in providing support to children with autism spectrum disorders and their parents and to professionals working in this area.

With regard to educational underachievement, our two Departments have been collaborating closely in recent years by way of a joint working group with a focus on the exchange of expertise and experience and the development of initiatives to cater for children who are educationally disadvantaged. The joint working group has tackled topics such as literacy and numeracy, along with school attendance and retention and education for the Traveller community.

In the context of their joint work on tackling educational underachievement, our two Departments jointly organised a joint North-South conference on Traveller education in Newry in March 2009. The conference focused on good practice in helping Traveller children overcome barriers to improved attendance and achievement at school.

Our two Departments also jointly organised a very successful peer learning event on school attendance in Dundalk on 21 October 2009. This event saw a range of academics, professionals and policy makers jointly considering existing services, sharing their experiences and examining best practice relating to school attendance issues. This involved attempting to identify which interventions work and seeking to obtain an insight into the strategies that work over time to successfully reduce absenteeism.

In a few weeks, our two Departments are holding a conference in Enniskillen on numeracy in the post-primary sector, with the theme "Promoting Change in Teaching Mathematics for the 21st Century". This follows on from a very successful conference on the attainment of numeracy in the primary sector that was held in Cavan in late 2008.

In the area of the integration of newcomer children, I am happy to report that my Department's inspectorate has recently agreed to participate in the strategy and steering process for a joint project that is being spearheaded by the Inclusion and Diversity Service in Northern Ireland. This joint project aims to develop a "co-ordination training tool" to facilitate capacity building in schools in regard to English as an additional language.

In the area of teacher qualifications and mobility, our two Departments have co-operated over a number of years in examining barriers to the movement of teachers between North and South at primary and post-primary level, including the provision of information about the Irish language requirement, pension entitlements and qualifications generally. As regards pension issues, a North-South pensions working group continues to do valuable work. An information event was held in Armagh on 20 January, when the teacher unions were briefed on the proposed way forward and their assistance was sought in a campaign raising the awareness of teachers on their options in regard to transfer of pension rights. This was an important element in the information plan developed by our two Departments which will ensure the arrangements for transferring pension entitlements will be well publicised.

In the area of continuing professional development, there is close liaison between the professional development services for teachers in both jurisdictions relating to in-service education for teachers in Irish medium education. Similarly, in the case of our two inspectorates, there is an ongoing programme of exchanges each school year between the inspectorates of both Departments aimed at supporting the continuing development of inspection practice in both jurisdictions.

It was recently agreed that the North-South Ministerial Council working group on teacher qualifications would meet early this year to agree a programme of co-operation focused on teacher education issues generally, beyond the confines of teachers' qualifications. It is planned that the work of the teaching council in each jurisdiction will be discussed.

Our two Departments are committed to North-South educational exchanges as a means of contributing to fostering mutual understanding and exploiting opportunities for mutual benefit. The Departments have been working with the North-South Exchange Consortium, NSEC, comprising Léargas, the British Council and the Youth Council, towards the establishment of structures to facilitate policy development and to support and co-ordinate this diverse field of activity. NSEC's work programme is aimed at supporting the Departments to give effect to the recommendations of the May 2008 report, Review of North South Co-operation on Educational Exchanges and Supporting Mechanisms . The overall joint aim of the Departments in that regard is to develop a framework that will include a joint policy and a joint programme for the future management and funding of North-South educational exchanges. This will include identifying and agreeing, in light of experience and changing circumstances, policy areas and themes for co-operation, along with financial allocation mechanisms and management and delivery structures. Both the Minister of Education, Ms Ruane, and I will continue to report to the NSEC on progress in this area. I expect the new study on co-operation that the Departments are now undertaking to have a bearing on and inform future developments in this area.

To complete the picture, I refer again to the comprehensive joint study on North-South co-operation in education that is being undertaken by the two Departments of Education. This meets a commitment made in the Government's National Development Plan 2007-13. Late last year, our two Departments formally agreed the terms of reference for such a joint study. It will cover current co-operation in the education sector between the Departments, the potential for further collaboration and a recommended programme of action. It will cover preschool, primary and secondary education, including those elements of educational provision for 14 to 19 year olds that come within the remit of the Department of Education in the North. The arrangements for carrying out the study were recently formalised and the Centre for Cross-Border Studies together with the North-South Exchange Consortium are supporting our Departments in undertaking certain aspects of it. The target for the submission of a final report to the Ministers is early 2011, with an interim report expected by summer 2010.

At a time when our Governments are confronting enormous fiscal and economic challenges there is an even stronger argument for increased North-South collaboration in practical areas that promise mutual benefit. In that context, I am pleased that our two Departments are undertaking this study, which I am confident will assist us in identifying and agreeing new themes and areas to enable us deepen our co-operation. Táim ag tnúth le díospóireacht spreagúil le baill an choiste seo agus lenár gcairde ón Tuaisceart. Tá se tábhachtach a chuimhneamh gur ar son na ndaoine óga ar fud an oileáin atáimid ag obair.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

I thank both Ministers, Ms Ruane and Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, for their presentations. I am pleased to see so many officials in attendance for this discussion on how to proceed into the future. I endorse the Chairman's comments regarding the talks in the North. The late nights will be worth it if we can move forward collectively on the basis of genuine equality.

My first question is for the Minister of Education, Ms Ruane, and relates to what we in the North refer to as barriers to mobility. A recent court ruling in Derry indicated that children living in the North have priority over those living in Donegal in terms of access to schools in Derry, even though Donegal is only a few miles up the road. There is a view that this residency criterion may be in breach of European Union law. Likewise, in Strabane and Derry, children partaking of secondary education through the medium of Irish in Letterkenny, which is less than 20 miles away, are not eligible for transport funding, but those who choose to travel 80 miles to Belfast for the same type of education are eligible for that support. Will the Minister comment on these issues? They are genuine barriers to mobility.

My next questions are for the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. The first relates to the statistics for leaving certificate students in Donegal who proceed to third level college. I am often struck by the fact the figures for Donegal seem to be lower than those for some of the western counties. Do the data for Donegal include leaving certificate students who enrol in Queen's University or Magee College?

On teachers' qualifications, I note the very encouraging remarks in the Minister's statement, but I have a query regarding the one-year postgraduate certificate in education, PGCE, course which is available in Queen's University and other universities in the North. I understand the Teaching Council of Ireland charges teachers from the North €1,000 in order for their qualification to be recognised in the South. Will the Minister comment on this obstacle to co-operation?

I welcome the Ministers and their officials. Like other speakers, I hope there is a speedy conclusion to the talks in the North, which will be to the benefit of us all. We have heard in the Ministers' presentations that there is a tremendous level of co-operation between North and South, which is as it should be. If we hope to achieve a post-conflict society, is education not the best way of all to break down barriers? We must help to ensure that children, who remember nothing of the past and are like sponges as they absorb information, grow up without prejudices. That is the best way to move forward and foster good relations North and South.

I am particularly interested in the area of preschool education. For too long, there was a misconception that only children from a certain social class could avail of such schooling, which is one of the most important learning environments of which children can avail. I welcome the free year of preschool education introduced by the Minister. There has been a great take-up of the scheme which achieves what both Ministers referred to, namely, ensuring equal treatment and equal access for all children. Will the Minister of Education, Ms Ruane, comment on that and indicate whether anything similar might be incorporated in the North?

The presentations indicate that models of good practice have been developed in both jurisdictions. I said at another committee meeting that nobody has a monopoly on good ideas. Rather, good ideas must be shared and we must all seek to learn from each other. That is particularly so in the case of children with special educational needs. We have come a long way in this area and made great advances. As a representative of Cavan-Monaghan, I am delighted to see that funding has been restored for the Middletown Centre for Autism. This centre of excellence will allow models of best international practice to be developed for the benefit of all.

In recent years I have developed a keen interest in the issue of autistic spectrum disorder. I was privileged to attend the conference in Armagh at the invitation of the Minister at which there was certainly a sharing of good practice and that was attended by both providers and parents. Every discipline was present and contributed to a highly worthwhile and enlightening debate. As for curricular developments, it is wonderful to see a commonsense approach as this is not about reinventing the wheel. Good materials that are available here in which the Department in the North is interested should be shared and vice versa because ultimately it is all about developing good practice.

While members have discussed the preschool, primary and secondary sectors, the third level sector also is extremely important. In these straitened economic times, one should examine the courses that will be on offer for children when they leave second level education to ensure they will be best placed to pick up jobs on qualification. I would like to hear of co-operation at third level. I share the views of Mr. Pat Doherty regarding third level participation. As I represent the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, and taught in a school in Monaghan from many years, I know that considerable numbers of school leavers go North for third level education but this is not reflected in the figures. When such tables are published, one may see the participation rates of such counties at the bottom but this is not a true and accurate reflection because such students go on to third level. I thank the Ministers for their presentations and encourage them to keep up the good work. They have come a long way and there is a tremendous level of co-operation.

My final point pertains to the 11-plus examination and I am delighted to see an end to it. For children in primary school in particular, school should be an educational, social and enjoyable experience. As they will face enough pressures in their lives later on, why should one do this to them when they are in primary school? Although I acknowledge that assessment is essential and one must know children are progressing, this should be done on a continuous basis in a non-threatening way that does not put them under any pressure. As they grow up, they will have enough pressure in their lives without encountering it in primary schools.

I need the joint committee's indulgence for a moment. As Senator Keaveney is due to speak on a Adjournment matter in the Seanad, she has asked permission to speak now. Is that agreed? Agreed.

While I appreciate members' indulgence, were I to spend too long saying so, I would be obliged to leave anyway. I am delighted to attend this meeting as a person who attended primary and secondary school in County Donegal, spent seven years in Jordanstown and taught in St. Mary's College, Creggan. I understand the importance of the North-South mobility issue or that of the northern, and even further northern, mobility issue. As another attendee at the Armagh autism conference, I commend both jurisdictions on that initiative, which was fantastic. The people who were chosen to participate were exceptionally generous with their time and were exceptionally open with their information. Those who attended workshops were highly varied and it was extremely informative both for those who are involved with autism and those, such as members, who encounter the issue at clinics and so on.

One issue to emerge from the conference is the need to check two year olds for autism, after which one then can have available the facilities when they reach the age of five, six or seven. I note that in her speech, the Minister, Ms Ruane, mentioned that check and assessment. Early intervention is much better and much more cost-effective and economic, if one wishes to be blunt in this regard, than are later interventions. Is there a way to secure an all-Ireland commitment to such a health check?

The second issue I wish to raise relates to a report I drew up for the Council of Europe on how one should teach history in areas of recent conflict. A very strong political message emerged from some politicians who were in charge of education within the committee structure at the time, to the effect that schools and classrooms were safe havens away from the realities of the evilness within the community. However, I refer to the findings of people such as Dr. Alan McCully of the University of Ulster, Coleraine, who conducted research with students. They reported that the students knew the reason mammy, daddy, granny, grandad or whoever had been in trouble with the law, had encountered difficulties or had been in prison. However, such children sought the wider picture and wanted to know the reason this had taken place. The only information they were receiving was from the murals on the walls, the colours on the streets or from everything except the source from which they expected to get the whole truth.

Is much being done with regard to the image of the other, particularly at the interfaces, to develop this understanding? Are the Ministers aware of my report or can this matter be furthered? I am aware that a small amount of work is under way separately in each jurisdiction. However, is enough going on at the interfaces? On days such as this, when attempts are being made to drive over the line the final aspects pertaining to policing and justice etc., is there an understanding that the image of the other in the classroom will help the communities to understand each other? In other words, my hackles should not rise on sight of a Lambeg drum, while someone else's hackles should not rise on sight of a bodhrán. Instead, it should be like "Riverdance", in which the two are combined. Consequently, I am very interested in the attendance of Mr. Paul Sweeney, who recently has moved from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to the Department of Education because I also would like to prepare a report on how music has the capacity to either drive conflict or to help develop peace. Education and culture are not often intertwined sufficiently but usually are kept separate in that music is something that one does and at which some people are good. In fact it is integral and, as a recent documentary broadcast about music in the classroom in St. Agnes's national school in Crumlin shows, there is more to music than simply the topic itself.

What is the present status of the Omagh campus concept of putting together the five different campuses on a single site? Another issue I wish to raise pertains to obstacles to mobility. A difficulty has arisen in respect of the gaelscoil in Buncrana, whereby people travelling to it from Derry cannot get transport beyond Bridgend. How can this be overcome? Another difficulty has arisen in respect of the hundreds of people who relocated over the Border into County Donegal. However, that movement, for example, resulted in only one extra child in the school at Muff. How does one plan for mobility? Were all the children who are from Derry but who now live in County Donegal to change their minds and decide to integrate into County Donegal, would the primary and secondary schools in County Donegal have the capacity to cope? While the delegations may have been considering this issue from the other direction, if people wish to integrate within their own communities, should it not be not facilitated? However, were they to decide to do so tomorrow, I do not believe we have the capacity to cater for it.

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús fáilte a chur roimh an beirt Aire agus na hoifigigh ón dhá Roinn Oideachais. At the outset, I wish to extend a warm welcome to both Ministers with responsibility for education and their respective officials. Given that this is the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, it would be remiss of me not to comment briefly on matters in respect of Hillsborough and Stormont in recent weeks. I had an exchange with other Members of the House yesterday in which they broadly were of one view with the Taoiseach. I wish to record that the understandable public impatience with the protracted engagement taking place aside, it is important to bear in mind that much constructive work clearly has been achieved in the course of these negotiations between the parties and with the direct involvement of the representatives of both Governments. In addition, the role of the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister must be acknowledged. I hope for an early conclusion and it is certainly the wish of my party that the matters involved would be satisfactorily and successfully concluded before the end of this week. As I stated, I welcome the two Ministers with responsibility for education. The focus of today's meeting is on both the all-Ireland co-operation in education that is already taking place and on the potential thereof. We must acknowledge the significant potential for the development of co-operation in the provision of education and related matters on an all-Ireland basis. The situation is well presented and I would like to thank the secretariat to the committee for the briefing paper circulated in advance of today's meeting. It is a substantive piece of work. Combined with the two addresses by the Ministers, Ms Ruane, MLA, and Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, it underscores the fact that there has been substantial interaction between the two Departments North and South. Several worthwhile initiatives have been undertaken. I especially welcome the new jointly commissioned study on co-operation, which will cover the potential for further collaboration and a recommended programme of action.

The Minister, Ms Ruane, once commented about many of the Deputies at a meeting of this committee being from the Border counties. I looked around and we were all from the Border counties at that time. Many of us will focus on issues that directly impinge on the Border counties, but people should also be mindful that they have a much wider jurisdiction. I speak specifically regarding the all-Ireland autism centre of excellence in Middletown. The withholding of the moneys was described as a pause, a word used by the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, today, although not one I remember being used on the floor of the House when the matter was first announced. As I was critical then, it is right that I acknowledge the lifting of the pause. I welcome this development.

I have specific questions for both Ministers. When will the promised new phased multi-annual plan for the development of the centre be ready and when does each Minister anticipate that the capital works involved will get under way? We all agree that we need to see early progress on this particular project and I hope we are all agreed on it being a flagship project. I would be anxious to hear the responses to these questions.

I note the workshop held last June on education through Irish and the commitment for further co-operation in that regard. Previously, I raised with both Ministers the issue of the scrudú cáilíochta na Gaeilge, SCG, which must be taken by teachers before they can teach in this State. I have direct and personal knowledge of this matter. Where teachers north of the Border want to undertake the SCG, I urged that provision be made to accommodate their assessment vis-à-vis the classroom engagement in their current schools. This examination of a teacher’s experience in a classroom is important. Currently, people are being forced to seek temporary posts in the Twenty-six Counties or to borrow an opportunity of access to a classroom setting in order for that assessment by a visiting inspector to be carried out. Surely this is an area we can jointly overcome. These are practical barriers to teachers north of the Border completing the scrudú and being awarded the achievement of same. Has this issue been examined further since I last raised it with both Ministers? What proposals, if any, have they to address this significant obstacle and what information can they give the committee?

A matter addressed by Mr. Doherty, MP, and others is the school transport situation. He rightly reflected on where he knows best, namely, the Derry-Donegal-Strabane-Letterkenny axis, but the situation is reflected along the length of the Border. It presents particularly in respect of Irish-medium education. A bunscoil in Crossmaglen in south County Armagh is closer to Monaghan town, which has a meanscoil, than to Carrickmacross, where pupils from the bunscoil travel to attend second level education through Gaeilge. In the absence of a second level Irish-medium education within accessible reach of children in Crossmaglen, would it not be within the gift of the Departments North and South to come to terms with the need to provide transport for children to access the closest facility irrespective of in which jurisdiction the objective school is placed? It is a major anomaly that presents a considerable difficulty. Communities have taken the courageous steps to establish bunscoileanna in different parts of the North in the absence of second level education. Currently, the only facility is in Belfast. Others might be planned, but how soon will they be in the offing? An entire cohort, perhaps even a generation of young people will not be able to gravitate on to second level education through Gaeilge, which would be their and their families' choice. All that is missing is the willingness on the part of the respective Departments to fund the transport. I would like to urge that this situation be taken into account.

In the context of cross-Border anomalies, I want to reflect on the preschool credit that applies to workers in the public service in the North. The Minister, Ms Ruane, might like to take my comments on board. Credits are provided to public sector workers north of the Border for preschool access for children. However, if people working in the North's Civil Service are domiciled south of the Border, as is the case in my constituency and is undoubtedly reflected along the Border's length from Dundalk to Letterkenny, and if they place their children in preschools before they leave their respective communities in the morning to head for wherever north of the Border they work, they will not receive the preschool credit. That is discriminatory and is not in the spirit of an EU perspective in terms of so-called cross-frontier workers. This also applies in respect of medical card access and a range of other benefits. In this context, there is discrimination in preschool access for public service workers north of the Border living south of the Border. I urge the Minister, Ms Ruane, to address this particular discrimination. The basis of the responses to representations I have received and to inquiries I have made is that only accredited preschool facilities within the Six Counties or UK area qualify. This is only a requirement. Since we have a high standard applying to accreditation of preschool opportunities south of the Border, we need North-South reciprocal recognition of same. This is the key to opening up that opportunity for that cohort of workers currently excluded.

I welcome the recent decision by the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to lift the circular on Irish language immersion education. It would be remiss of me if I did not record this. I am reserving all of my criticisms for the Dáil Chamber and another day.

There are not many issues left.

I am choosing the areas appropriate to this meeting. I want the Minister to go away in a very happy mood about cross-Border co-operation in education pursuits. I welcome that and believe it was a worthwhile decision.

I wish the further initiatives well, including the post-primary numeracy conference in Enniskillen, to which the Minister for Education and Science referred. It sits uncomfortably with me given that 1,200 special needs assistants have had their contracts concluded by the end of this month.

That is not correct.

If that is not correct the Minister can correct me when he responds. I understand the announcement was made that 1,200 special needs assistants would be cut before the end of February in this jurisdiction.

With the indulgence of the Chairman I refer to the peace talks in Northern Ireland. Like others speakers I recognise the patience of both Governments. We must recognise how the Sinn Féin organisation has handled these negotiations. Last Friday it would have been very easy to walk out the door and give up hope. On the way into this meeting I said to Mr. Pat Doherty that he must have no nails left because it has been a long ten days. Credit to them for staying there and I hope a resolution will be agreed sooner rather than later to the debacle of policing and related issues in Northern Ireland.

I welcome the Minister, Caitríona Ruane, MLA, on what is certainly not her first visit to Dublin. I also welcome the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and I thank the Chairman for giving us the opportunity to discuss North-South issues and providing an update on what has taken place. It is a welcome opportunity to raise issues with both Ministers.

One of my areas of interest is access to third level education, particularly for students in my constituency of Donegal North-East. As mentioned by Mr. Pat Doherty, many travel across the Border to Magee, Limavady, Coleraine, Jordanstown or Queen's University Belfast. Many more would go but for the lack of enthusiasm or drive by the Government or the authorities in Northern Ireland to take a welcoming approach to students. With that in mind, I ask both Ministers, particularly Caitríona Ruane, to consider sharing grant aid for students south of the Border. This will show they are welcome there and will appeal to students to come north of the Border for their third level education. This would be a good gesture.

I ask the Minister to consider scholarships at third level to break down the barriers that exist on either side of the Border. We are used to questioning the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and for that reason more questions are aimed at Caitríona Ruane on this occasion. I welcome the development taking place through North-South co-operation in the Department of Education and Science. I welcome the comments of Caitríona Ruane on harmonising matters, best practice and tackling common problems together.

I also welcome her belief that children, young people, parents and teachers should be treated equally. There is no justification for inequality. Much debate in the Republic of Ireland in recent months has concerned budgets and pay. There is a significant difference in levels of pay on either side of the Border. What is the opinion of the Minister, Caitríona Ruane, in bringing equality to the anomalies that exist between teachers' pay on either side of the Border? Should pay be increased north of the Border or are we paying too much on this side?

Cuirim fáilte roimh an beirt Aire chuig an cruinniú seo. Is breá liom cloisint go bhfuil jab an-mhaith á dhéanamh acu sa Tuaisceart do dhaoine a bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge. Molaim an dul chun cinn atá déanta ansin. Tá sé an-tábhachtach go mbeidh daoine a bhfuil suim acu i gcúrsaí Gaeilge ó Thuaidh agus ó Dheas agus ar an dá thaobh i dTuaisceart na hÉireann. Tá ceist agam don Aire Ruane. Cé mhéid scoileanna ina bhfuil daoine nach dtagann ón taobh poblachtánach ag foghlaim Gaeilge agus cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ag an Roinn chun suim a spreagadh sa Ghaeilge i measc Protastúnaigh? Molaim an méid atá déanta. Tá sé an-tábhachtach chun daoine ón dá thaobh a spreagadh cultúr an taobh eile a chur chun cinn chomh maith. Maidir leis an curaclam, cén dul chun cinn atá déanta chun polasaí agus traidisíuin an dá thaobh a mhúineadh i gnáthscoileanna an Tuaiscirt? Is rud bunúsach é seo. Molaim freisin an dul chun cinn atá déanta ar uimhir 4, school and youth exchange, mar sin í an áit is tábhachtaí chun gnáth saol a chothú do ghach duine sa Tuaisceart.

Coming from the South, we live in the 21st century, as you do in the North but it is an entirely different process when one travels to the North, as I did after the last general election to support the football club of Drogheda United in a game against Linfield of Belfast. I was driving within the speed limit and as I approached the ground I heard roars and shouts of Taig. I wondered how they could know I was representing Drogheda. I had forgotten I was driving my election car, with "Vote No. 1 O'Dowd" on the side. I got a rude awakening about how difficult it is when one is confronted with a strange reaction. The timewarp in Northern Ireland is a historic one and I welcome the process and the progress that has been made in breaking it down. The fundamental issue is not teachers' pensions, qualifications or scoping reports but about getting people together, changing the curriculum and the interaction of school exchanges. Can the delegation comment on breaking down the barriers? I welcome the progress that has been made in the field of Irish language. To what degree is that breaking through to people who do not normally speak it or are not interested in such things? That is the measure of the progress made.

Deputy Ó Caoláin mentioned that he reserves his politics for the Chamber. I congratulate the progress that has been made. We need to go further and draw people in. Whatever progress has been made is welcome. We must break it down further and I wish the delegation well in its endeavours.

I welcome the two Ministers and their officials. On behalf of Fine Gael I welcome the progress that has been made on talks at Hillsborough and Stormont. It may be a long process but at the end of the process we will have more understanding and co-operation. It is important to ensure that all parties feel part of the process and that they are not marginalised. It is easy for big parties to believe they are the only people and that nobody else counts. However, the importance of this process is to ensure that the Assembly truly works as an assembly and not just as a meeting place of people with daggers drawn.

Last week, I had a group down from Northern Ireland and while everything is not perfect in this House they were happy to see people discussing issues rather than personalities and history. This is extremely important. The education of young people has much to do with this and that is the importance of co-operation. I welcome the commitment to the joint study on North-South co-operation. It is important for the future.

In the past, prior to Fine Gael — the party of which I am a member — introducing free fees south of the Border, busloads of people travelled from Monaghan for education in Coleraine, Jordanstown and Queen's. Deputy Ó Caoláin referred to this earlier. Many people in Border areas could not have otherwise afforded the third-level education they received and for that we are extremely thankful. Over the years there has been much co-operation in education with Northern Ireland.

The importance of the Middletown Centre for Autism has been mentioned by several speakers. I welcome the removal of the brakes on that and I hope it can move forward. Will the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, comment on this? He stated that he would like the centre to have certainty on its budget for the next fiscal year. It will be a long-term cross-Border co-operation project and we need a commitment for more than the next fiscal year. We need to know when the capital funding will be spent. It is a major step forward. Autism is a very serious problem and it is good to see it being dealt with. However, we need assurance that in another year's time another problem will not arise. This is just not good enough.

Others spoke about the benefits of interaction between schools on either side of the Border and there has been much of this in recent years. In 1995 and 1996 I was involved in establishing a cross-Border co-operation project between Protestant schools in Aughnacloy and Catholic schools in the parish of Truagh. That has built up and there are now training sessions for older people in the special training centre in Ballyocean. It shows how co-operation can actively bring families and young people together and I fully support it.

Children in the Derry and Strabane areas who could get education in Buncrana were mentioned by Mr. Pat Doherty MLA and Deputy Joe McHugh, who is absent through no fault of his own, also asked me to raise it. I understand that five children this year, and possibly 11 next year, want to attend Gaelscoil Chineál Eoghain in Buncrana, which is only 14 miles away. They are advised that they should go to a school in Belfast which is 80 miles away. This is not realistic. I believe the Minister for Education, Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA, meant what she said earlier. She spoke about the need to remove obstacles to mobility and stated that the two education systems are working in harmony to share best practice and tackle common problems. She also mentioned the transport issue. We want to adopt practical solutions to these problems. I understand a Southern Irish school bus will collect the children at Bridgend and that problem can be solved very quickly if a bus is provided to bring them five miles.

Will the Minister reconsider this situation and with her colleague, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe work out something to solve the problem? When people want to learn Irish they will go to all ends and in case the Minister for Education thinks this has to do with being Catholic I can inform her that one of my best friends is married to a lady from Craigy Road in Belfast and their four girls, three of whom are teachers, are fluent in Irish. They enjoy the language and wanted to have it. They all went wherever they had to go to learn it. The issue should be dealt with in a realistic way and I hope the children's problems can be solved.

I welcome the level of co-operation that exists. We can solve many of our North-South and all-Ireland problems through co-operation, common sense approaches and trying to deal with matters through talks rather than other methods.

I thank the members of the joint committee for what has been a very positive response to the level of co-operation that exists between the Minister for Education, Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA, and me and between our respective officials, who are extremely serious and assiduous about their work. Great progress has been made and we hope that it continues.

Deputy Blaney raised the issue of student grants. Southern residents going North can take their maintenance grant with them. The difficulty is that we have fees here and we do not meet the cost of fees in the Six Counties, which is a practical difficulty for parents. With regard to scholarships, the McManus scheme was introduced in September 2008 and in 2009 it was introduced in Northern Ireland. Each year, 100 leaving certificate students and 25 A level students from disadvantaged backgrounds who are progressing to higher education benefit from the contribution of a €30 million fund by Mr. J.P. McManus. The Minister for Education, Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA, and I have had the pleasure of presenting these scholarships. It is a very exciting development which we welcome and we would like to see it continue.

There is a very high level of third level co-operation and collaboration. I have visited third level institutions in the South and called for far greater collaboration between them. We need them to share expertise and professionalism. It is fair to say that the collaboration between North and South is very good. For example, we are happy with the interaction taking place between Letterkenny Institute of Technology and universities north of the Border. An examination of the EU research funding under the seventh framework programme reveals that 73 North-South collaboration applications have been made to date and 22 of these have been successful. In the programme for research in third level institutions, which is funded by the Irish Government, seven out of 17 cycle 4 applications for collaborative projects with Northern Ireland colleges have been successful. A study on higher education capacity in the north west has been approved under the strategic innovation fund and is due for completion in 2010.

I can make available to the committee a copy of the letter I wrote to Reg Empey, MLA, on 14 January outlining opportunities for collaboration at third level. From the meetings I have held with him, he appears very open to such collaboration. I have proposed that we would hold two meetings per year to explore further partnership possibilities in regard to research and building on existing all-island initiatives.

Several members raised the issue of school transport. Following our last North-South Ministerial Council meeting on 25 November 2009, it was agreed that the issue of school transport provision for pupils travelling across the Border would be further explored. On 11 December 2009, officials from the school transport section of my Department held an initial exploratory meeting with officials from the Department of Education Northern Ireland and it was agreed that the Departments would prepare a joint paper for their respective Ministers on issues including pupil numbers and flows, current provision and capacity, school ethos, teaching media at primary and secondary levels, legal implications, charging and implications for school closures.

Deputy O'Dowd asked about barriers to education and cross-Border exchanges. Our Departments have consulted the North South Exchange Consortium in regard to developing a new programme that meets our respective policy objectives and a joint study is underway in this regard.

In regard to Middletown Centre for Autism, the Government has decided to lift its pause in funding and my Department is committed to the capital programme for the centre. The programme of remedial works for 2010 will have to be carried out. As a result of agreement at the North-South Ministerial Council, we will be preparing an updated phased multi-annual plan for the future development of the centre. We have to be reasonable, however. Since Middletown was first mooted in 2002, the way we deal with special needs has progressed dramatically. We are now spending €1.2 billion out of my Department's €9 billion budget on special needs. The professional perspective on autism has changed since 2001. My Northern counterpart and I have regard for the best professional practice on autism as we develop our plans and while we are committed to Middletown, we would be remiss if we had not taken account of the progress that has been made on autism. We want to ensure new practices are investigated in order that we can provide the best possible professional development.

Senator Keaveney asked about the teaching of history. We are addressing this important issue on the basis of promoting mutual understanding and investing in teacher education. We want students to learn how to locate and critically examine historical information from a variety of primary and secondary sources. They should be able to detect gaps and inconsistencies in accounts, as well as alternative voices and perspectives. The leaving certificate history examination includes an assessed research project whereby an extended essay can be prepared. The History Teachers Association of Ireland is actively involved in disseminating new developments in historical research and international thinking and the curriculum has progressed significantly from the regurgitation of facts and events to a focus on using evidence, detecting voices and critically reflecting. This is in keeping with best international practice.

We gave the first word to the Minister, Ms Ruane, MLA, and we will also give her the final word.

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

I thank members for their comments and questions. I am really glad to be here today and that we are starting to work together to deal with the many obstacles in our way. Our task will not be easy because there are major blockages to bringing about change. I pledge to do all I can because I do not believe these obstacles serve any child, whether from the Nationalist and republican community, the Unionist and loyalist community or our ethnic minorities.

In the North, major obstacles to mobility are written into our legislation, including residence criteria which I believe violate EU law. This needs to change. I am at present preparing a paper for the Executive. In case members do not understand what has happened to many of the papers I have brought to the Executive, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister must agree to papers before they can be tabled for consideration. When I brought proposals on banning academic selection, the Executive refused to even discuss them. My proposals on special educational needs and inclusion, which needed legislative change, took a year to be put on the agenda and sent out for consultation. My proposals to establish the education and skills authority were aimed at streamlining the administration of education and reducing the enormous bureaucracy we have in the North, where there are 11 organisations delivering education across six small counties. One can imagine the waste of resources on administration, with 11 human resource managers, 11 finance officers and so on, where one or two would do. The proposals were agreed on 19 July — I remember this because it was my birthday and it was a great achievement — and then, two years later, just as we were ready for the new education and skills authority to come into being, lo and behold, it did not happen. My officials and I spent an enormous amount of time putting in place a convergence plan for 11 organisations and the amount of resources used was incredible.

The only reason I am going through all this with the committee is that I intend to introduce papers to deal with the obstacles to mobility in terms of residency criteria. It is ridiculous that a child in Derry cannot go to his or her nearest school because it happens to be three miles across a so-called border, and it is the same for a child in Donegal. It is a two-way process. It does not just affect Irish-medium schools or people from the Nationalist or republican tradition; it also affects people from the Unionist and Protestant tradition. It discriminates both ways and this is wrong. As someone who lives south of the Border but was elected north of the Border and whose children have gone to school on both sides of the Border, I feel it is ridiculous.

There are children in Cavan from the Protestant community who want to go to the royal schools in Armagh, Dungannon or Fermanagh and it is very difficult for them to do so. The reason they can, in some cases, is that the parents can pay to board their children there. In other cases in which they cannot pay, there are difficulties. We should not have a situation in which only children whose parents have money can go to a particular school. I am bringing papers to the Executive with regard to the transport and residency issues. We have built a beautiful new school in Strabane — Holy Cross College — which Mr. Doherty will know about. It is fantastic. I want children from both sides to be able to access these schools.

I welcome Senator Keaveney's points about planning. It should not be just about co-operation. We need both Departments to sit down and plan our schools. There is no point in my building a school in Strabane which costs £20 million or £30 million if there is not proper planning. We should not be doing that. Equally, in terms of Irish-medium provision, let us consider how we work together in Buncrana. To date, our Department has failed in its duty. I make no bones about that. We have failed a generation of young people. I understand that clearly. My children were some of those who were failed. They go to naíscoil and then to bunscoil and then there is nowhere for them to go. It is simply not good enough for my Department to tell children they can go on a bus to Belfast. We need provision and we need high quality. We do have a brilliant unit in Armagh which is doing great work but it cannot take the required number of children. We need a school to deal with the children from Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Derry, and we must be creative in how we do that. I know from talking to Mr. Doherty that we should not be standing with our backs to each other when it comes to planning our schools.

I hope we get this through the Executive. We must plan on the basis that we do and, if we do not, we need to go to a plan B which would include memorandums of understanding and so on. It is simply not good enough that children in Derry are told they cannot have a bus to the Border. Surely in this day and age our Department can do something about that. It is one of the first issues I raised with our new permanent secretary and we will be dealing with it. I thank members for their interest in this area.

We have good preschool education in the North although, obviously, we are never complacent. We also have a social disadvantage criterion. I get many letters from more affluent parents saying we are discriminating in favour of disadvantaged children, but I make no apology for that. We need to give those children a leg up and prioritise them. We will continue to operate in that fashion because one of the things we negotiated at St. Andrew's and as part of the Good Friday Agreement was targeting on the basis of objective need. It is not unlawful to target on the basis of need and to target disadvantage. As members can imagine, there are protests, but I make no apology for doing this because we need to give our working class children opportunities they have not had.

I do not have the statistics offhand but at the moment, 93% of children have one full preschool year. In the Irish-medium sector we have gone further because of our support for tumoideachas, or immersion education. It is essential that children in Irish-medium education get two years of naíscoil. The Irish-medium sector in the North consists mostly of children from the working-class communities because that it where it sprang from, although I expect that will change. Anyone who knows the geography of the North will know that when one starts talking about Glengormley and Crumlin one is moving into areas that I will not call affluent but are not at the same level of disadvantage as the Falls Road or the Shankill Road, although there are pockets of disadvantage in those areas.

There is an issue with the PGCE course. The Irish Teaching Council does not recognise the course at Queen's University Belfast and students must pay €1,000 to have their qualification recognised. This is one of the issues we can consider. I think Deputy Blaney thought I dealt with further education, but I do not. However, I agree with many of the points he made and I will certainly make representations to Mr. Empey, who comes to some of our North-South Ministerial Council meetings, in this regard. Mr. Doherty's point was very specific, but where I do have a remit is in the area of teacher training. We need to take a common-sense approach. If we have ten students paying €10,000 for the same course to be recognised, there is obviously an issue there, but I hope we can get it ironed out with a common-sense approach.

I am 100% supportive of the Middletown Centre for Autism. This is an innovative all-Ireland project celebrating good practice. I want to consider best international practice, and I have ring-fenced money in my budget for this project. This is about more than North-South relations or special needs children; it is also about decentralisation. I come from Mayo and represent a rural constituency, I am sure Deputy O'Keeffe is the same, as he is from the republic of Cork. Some people in the North think that centres of excellence can be only in areas such as Belfast and some people from Dublin have a similar viewpoint, but I do not share them. We should have international centres in rural areas.

Coming from Castlebar, I remember that one of the best things that happened to it was the decentralisation of the Land Commission, especially in view of the fact that Michael Davitt was a famous son of Mayo. It is good to have jobs in different parts of Ireland. It is important to destroy the myth that centralised services should always be based in Dublin or Belfast. Our Department will actively support this centre and we will work with the Department in the South to prepare this plan. We will work from the point view of optimising the Middletown centre and I look forward to the support of the committee and, no doubt, the support of the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, as well in respect of this matter.

I refer to comments in respect of health checks and two-year-olds. The earlier we identify issues, the better; the longer we delay, the more we disadvantage the children. Working class children will be those disadvantaged most because middle class parents, rightly, fight for their children. It is great that they do so but they have more resources in many, but not all, cases.

It is very important that the health and education Departments work together and we are working together in the North. My colleague, Mr. Michael McGimpsey, MLA, is from the Ulster Unionist Party. We have set up a young person's group across Departments under the auspices of the junior Ministers in the North. We have some way to go yet and that is the purpose of the negotiations at the moment, in addition to policing, justice and equality. They are also about better working in the Executive because, let us face it, it is no secret that it could work better.

I welcome the comments on the 11 Plus exam and I agree with them. I agree with the comments on diagnostic assessments and I have no difficulty with it. It is criminal that we test children at ten and 11 years and decide their outcomes. Some 47% of our young people leave school without an English and maths GCSE. That is junior certificate level and it is shocking. Our two-tier system is not working and it must stop. The discussion is timely because on Saturday test results will emerge concerning breakaway grammar schools. I realise something similar took place in the South decades ago. It is disgraceful that these grammar schools are breaking away from the system, that they are testing children against the advice of the Department and putting children through that trauma. It should not happen and I will do everything I can to ensure it does not continue. I have informed them we will not fund, correct or facilitate the tests. That is a matter for the breakaway grammar schools and the parents. They tried to bring primary schools into it but I would not allow it to happen and I will not allow a distortion of the primary curriculum; it has been distorted for too long. There are children doing the test who sit at the front of the class and children at the back of the class colouring in. The committee will appreciate why our literacy and numeracy problems are so severe and we will not allow it to continue.

There was reference to St. Mary's College, Creggan and I pay tribute to that school. It is at the cutting edge, a leading school, led by a Donegal woman, as Senator Keaveney is probably aware. It is a fantastic school and it carries out tremendous work against all the odds. Marie Lindsay is a wonderful woman.

A former teacher is a wonderful woman as well.

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

I have been to the school and I have worked with her. They attended the BT Young Scientist and Technology exhibition some weeks ago. That is the model to which we are moving in the North.

I refer to teaching of history. I do not believe we have it right yet but we have moved significantly in the North. In the past, it was as if Ireland did not exist and we simply learned about British history. Thankfully, we have moved somewhat in respect of this and there have been some good developments. However, there is a difficulty with teaching history in conflict situations. Deputy Fergus O'Dowd raised some interesting points about the difficult circumstances in which we work. It is not easy.

I travelled to Cyprus and, as the committee is aware, the island is partitioned. I was invited for a conference on education. I went to discuss equality but all they were interested in was how to teach history in conflict situations. There is a debate raging at the moment in Cyprus. What have we done in the North? We are teaching about the other and working in the areas of cultural diversity and history, including teaching of the famine and the world wars. Is it enough? No. We are afraid of difference. I have no wish to generalise but I am aware from talking to young people that, in some cases, they find history very boring because, they maintain, it is too neutral. My Department inspectors might have a different view but I listen to young people. They find the use of language in history difficult. They believe it is far too neutral and that a disconnect remains between the classroom and the community. I agree with some of the comments made. In the past, the focus was on keeping the classroom and the community separate. Some 30% of learning is in the classroom and 70% is in the community. In terms of learning, we should bring the two together if we are to increase outcomes. Major issues remain for us there. I do not believe we have it right yet but there is a good start and our inspectors are working together.

Some 60% of all history teachers will retire in the next decade and there is an opportunity for a new approach throughout Europe. That is a European rather than a local figure.

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

I welcome the Senator's interest in this area and it is something we must consider.

The Lisanelly campus is a fantastic project and we have appointed a manager to run it. It is a former British military barracks in the heart of Omagh. There will be six schools, including a special school, made up of different ethoi. It will include State schools and Catholic schools but it will involve sharing and collaboration. Mr. Pat Doherty is the MP for the area and has done a great deal of work. I chair a working group dealing with the project and we are in negotiations at all levels. It will be brilliant and add so much to Omagh. A project development worker is in place, a position we fund. She is from this part of the island and it is very exciting.

I refer to Scrúdú le hAghaidh Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge. It is something the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, and Mr. McDonagh have been working on with us. We are working on making it available in the North because we need to have it there. It should not only be available in the South. I referred to immersion education and I support An Tumoideachas 100%. My children did An Tumoideachas. We have always had it in the North and it is very good. I refer to scholarships. The Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, mentioned that when we were down in Limerick. There is something of an issue in the North in this regard and we must deal with it. The only sector that received scholarships this year was the grammar sector. That must change and our officials are examining the matter to ensure it is across the board.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd is not here but I wish to answer his questions about Gaeilge on record. I fully agree with the remarks; Irish is for everyone. It is not only for the nationalist or any one community. Irish is a beautiful language and it is for every community. Like Deputy Crawford, I am aware of many people from the Protestant community whose children are educated through the medium of Irish and I meet such people on a daily basis. We are doing everything we can to ensure people can avail of it in a very difficult context. There are many attacks on the Irish language and children who use the Irish language, which is unfair. This is something we must work through and I believe Acht na Gaeilge is one way to do that.

We are in difficult contexts. I do not wish to make too much of it but five Ministers from my party have received death threats. They are almost routine at this stage and it is difficult for us to operate in this environment. I received a death threat recently, as did other members of my party and it is not easy on our children. We take it for granted in some ways because we are so used to it but it is not an easy situation for our children, families and communities. This is why it is so important to move forward on the basis of equality and partnership. I hope and trust we come out of these talks, that new environments are created within our Assembly and that we move forward on the basis of respect and equality.

I thank the Minister, Ms Ruane, very much. We are very grateful to both Ministers——

If the Chair could indulge me with his patience, I asked a question on the differential in teachers' pay either side of the Border.

I wish to hear a very brief comment on the pre-school credits for employees of the public service north of the Border. These are people whose children attend pre-school south of the Border.

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

I forgot to refer to the questions on pre-school credits and teachers pay. Gabh mo leithscéal, rinne mé dearmad. I was not aware of the issue of pre-school credits and certainly I will examine it. I realise there was an issue with child care vouchers in the North.

That is what we are talking about. It is the same thing.

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

I wrote to my counterpart in England because it is not up to me to bring that in. It goes across the entire Civil Service rather than only inside the Department of Education. Wherever that may be an issue, I shall raise it through the North-South Ministerial Council in plenary session. This is one of the areas with which we must deal in the plenary format. It refers to obstacles to mobility in general rather than only to the educational format and it cuts across all areas.

It concerns the child care vouchers

Ms Caitríona Ruane, MLA

Right. I raised that issue with my counterpart in England and said it was something that should be brought to the North of Ireland. Obviously, we will also need to look at the issue from a North-South point of view and it must be raised at both North-South level and at the British-Irish Council.

Again, teachers' pay is a similar issue because it cuts across public sector pay. This is one of the other obstacles to mobility. I am a republican. I want a united Ireland. I want all of us to work together, to remove the obstacles to mobility and this is obviously another obstacle. Again, the issue is bigger than education but I will certainly play my part and will return to the Deputy on the matter. We will examine how we can raise it in the North-South Ministerial Council plenary format and at British-Irish level. I would welcome dealing with it through all the different structures. Once one names something that is the way to begin to deal with it.

I thank the Minister. We are very grateful to both Ministers for their very detailed and informed presentations. We congratulate both of them, their managements, Departments and senior officials on this excellent co-operation which is very obvious as such. We also congratulate them on their joint partnership and funding of the Middletown Centre for Autism and wish them continued success with that. We believe it is very important.

There is great potential here and I am especially grateful for what the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy O'Keeffe, said concerning the area of science, research and innovation. There is enormous potential on this island, North and South, to take into account the post-Lisbon treaty situation and the emphasis across the island that research innovation and science are vital for the future of both our respective economies and an all-island economy. It is critically important for the future.

With the support of the European Union, the great work of the special EU programmes body in Belfast and the leadership of the two Ministers in their respective Departments, in collaboration with others through the framework programmes, and perhaps through other member states as third partners, we can use this great potential for development in the future.

Ireland, North and South, is renowned worldwide for high educational standards. It is very appropriate, therefore, that we should seek to learn from one another and, as colleagues have said, to share best practice in this area on a North-South basis. We wish both Ministers continued success in their respective offices.

We have one piece of correspondence, a letter from Mr. Liam Nellis, chief executive officer of Intertrade Ireland, formally inviting the committee to visit the organisation's offices in Newry. Members will recall that he visited the committee with his colleagues some time ago. We look forward to doing that in the near future.

Is there any other business?

I do not know if it is appropriate but since the last meeting we witnessed the death of Cardinal Cathal Daly. We should recognise the great efforts he made during the progress of the Good Friday Agreement and during his life to try to develop a level of understanding on an all-Ireland basis.

In addition, perhaps the committee might consider sending its sympathy, empathy and support to the family of Constable Peadar Heffron who, as a Gaelic speaker, a player of Gaelic games and a PSNI officer, is so much a symbol of the way we should be moving forward on this island. We should be very glad he is alive, is now eating and getting physiotherapy and that those who carried out this atrocious act did not succeed.

I second both those sentiments. Cardinal Daly did tremendous work in a very difficult situation and played a major role. It was a very sad day that a PSNI member who happens to be a Catholic and a Gaelic speaker should be earmarked. It was obviously an effort by some people who are not represented in this room — I wish to say that — who do not want to see the peace process being finalised and moving forward. It is important to note both matters.

I endorse what was said. The committee will extend its sympathy to the family of Cardinal Cathal Daly. May he rest in peace. I once had the opportunity to deal with him and Archbishop Robin Eames when I was dealing with strand two of the Agreement. They were excellent people who did an outstanding job. We respect that great contribution.

We shall send a message also to the family of Peadar Heffron at this traumatic and tragic time. We are very optimistic for his future and hope things will improve for him. The resilience of the man, his family and those around them is very important at this time in Northern Ireland.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.45 p.m. until 11:30 a.m. on Thursday, 25 March 2010.
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