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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 25 Mar 2010

EU Structural Funds: Discussion with Special EU Programme Body.

Ba mhaith liom fíor chaoin fáilte a chur roimh phríomh oifigeach feidhmiúcháin an Special EU Programmes Body, SEUPB, Mr. Patrick Colgan, and the leas-phríomh oifigeach, Mr. Shaun Henry. Táimid lán sásta go bhfuil siad anseo agus molaim iad as an dea-obair atá déanta acu. Tá meas mór againn orthu agus ar an fhoireann iontach atá acu i mBéal Feirste agus i gContae Mhuineacháin.

It is a great pleasure to welcome on behalf of everybody Mr. Pat Colgan, the chief executive of the Special EU Programmes Body, and Mr. Shaun Henry, director of the managing authority at the Special EU Programmes Body in Belfast. The Good Friday Agreement laid the basis for the establishment of the North-South implementation bodies, of which the Special EU Programmes Body is one. The bodies were established to take forward policy on an all-island basis and are funded by the two Administrations. While each body has a clear operational remit, all of their work comes under the overall policy direction of the North-South Ministerial Council, with clear accountability lines back to the council, the Oireachtas and the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is a great honour to welcome, on my behalf and that of colleagues, Mr. Pat Colgan and Mr. Shaun Henry and have this opportunity to discuss the work of the body and funding plans and prospects in the near future.

Before we commence I advise that whereas Members of the Houses enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy absolute privilege. I know we do not have to worry about that today. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly with regard to references of a personal nature.

Mr. Pat Colgan

Thank you. It is a real privilege to be here. It is the first time I have come before an Oireachtas joint committee. I have been before a number of scrutiny committees in the Northern Ireland Assembly, as well as the Committee of Public Accounts. My colleague Mr. Shaun Henry and I, with other members of our team, Ms Gina McIntyre and Howard Keery, are responsible for the management of these programmes. It is part of our public accountability governance structures to have the honour of coming before elected representatives and talking about the work we have done.

The committee has a submission from us which outlines in broad terms the background of our work. I do not propose to read through it but I will pick some key items, emphasise them and perhaps give an opportunity to the committee to ask me for clarifications.

The Special EU Programmes Body, SEUPB, as the committee knows, is a result of the Good Friday Agreement. The two key pieces of legislation are the British-Irish Agreement Act 1999 and the North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which provide a statutory basis for the work of the body. We are accountable directly to the North-South Ministerial Council, which met in sectoral format in February and was attended by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and the Northern Ireland Minister of Finance and Personnel, Sammy Wilson, accompanied by the Minister for Social Development, Margaret Ritchie. We accounted to the council for our progress to date, approval of business plans and so on.

We have direct day-to-day accountability to and working relationships with the Department of Finance in Dublin and the Department of Finance and Personnel in Belfast. They are our accountable Departments, so to speak. In a practical way, however, we deal with almost all Government Departments because of the nature of our work, drawing down funds as matched funding for the European moneys we receive and accounting to them for their disbursement and management. As a body we are in touch on a daily basis, practically and operationally, with most Departments North and South of the Border.

We are subject to normal governance arrangements for non-departmental public bodies, in Northern Ireland terms, or State agencies, in Irish terms. We submit our three-year corporate plans in the normal way. I have a financial memorandum which determines how I should behave as Accounting Officer for all the funds within the programmes, and we have an audit committee made up of representatives of the two Departments of Finance. We also have external members and an external chair. Those are the general governance structures and arrangements for the Special EU Programmes Body.

Our work is concerned with the design, delivery, monitoring, evaluation and management of the INTERREG and PEACE programmes. The legislation passed in 1999 has been updated twice since — once in 1999 and again in 2007 — to give effect to the fact that while the legislation refers to the programmes as they were back then, it is also intended to cover work on successor programmes. That is the statutory basis on which we continue to do our work.

The EU, as members are aware, works in seven-year programme cycles which in itself determines the work in which we are engaged. The current cycle began in 2007 and will continue to 2013, with a further two years — that is, into 2015 — for continued implementation of the programme in terms of spending. Thus, the current cycle will run up to 2015, with a new one starting in 2013 which will bring us to 2020 and beyond.

The PEACE I, II and III programmes involve an expenditure of just under €2 billion, which is a substantial amount, while the INTERREG programmes involve €561 million. We have no direct involvement in PEACE I, because we came into existence just after it began, but I am the Accounting Officer for the programme, which is being closed during the current year. It was a complex programme involving more than 31,000 applications, 15,000 of which were approved, and the disbursement of €667 million throughout the region. PEACE II and PEACE III, which grew out of PEACE I, are successor programmes to it.

It is worth pointing out that the PEACE programmes are unique as there are no other such programmes anywhere else in Europe. Northern Ireland is the only region in Europe to have a programme which uses Structural Funds to address the legacy of a conflict and take advantage of the opportunities arising from peace. However, the requirement to work within the regulatory environment of the Structural Funds presents significant challenges to the programme. The INTERREG programmes, on the other hand, are part of a family of programmes available throughout Europe. There are almost 70 INTERREG programmes at the moment.

The expenditure involved in the PEACE and INTERREG programmes amounts to €2.556 billion. Our body has disbursed around €100 million a year on these programmes over the last six or seven years and our expenditure for this year will amount to about €70 million. As I mentioned, INTERREG II has been closed, while PEACE I is in the process of being closed. PEACE II and INTERREG IIIA, which began in 2000 and continued to 2006, are in the process of being closed now.

The total value of the PEACE II programme was €944 million, and it involved six measures: economic renewal, with a total value of €350 million; social integration, inclusion and reconciliation; locally based regeneration and development strategies; "outward and forward looking region"; cross-Border co-operation; and a technical assistance heading to provide for the management, administration and delivery of the programmes. It was a complex programme involving more than 56 implementing bodies. The structure was designed to guarantee inclusiveness and ensure every part of society was involved. A total of 7,000 projects were approved and implemented. The programme is currently going through a process of closure and will be closed by September of this year.

With regard to the size, scope and reach of the PEACE II programme, there is a table included in the documentation which gives an indication of the numbers involved. A total of 868,420 individuals participated which should give members some sense of the reach this programme has had. It is extraordinary and there is no programme in Europe quite like it. There is hardly a village, street or townland in Northern Ireland or the Border counties that has not been touched by the PEACE programme. A total of 161,599 people are involved in cross-Border activities under the programme; 1,638 groups are involved in reconciliation projects, which equates to 42,772 people; and more than 100,000 people have gained qualifications, while 77,600 have progressed in employment, education and training.

The programme had a vast reach and was quite diverse in terms of its activities. One could say it was a broad-reaching regional development programme, like many of its sister programmes in the Structural Funds family, but with a distinctive dimension of peace and reconciliation. It sought to build reconciliation between communities, take advantage of opportunities arising from the peace, and address the legacy of the conflict. The impacts of the programme have been documented in a number of evaluation exercises, to which I have referred in the documentation provided to members.

If we consider what happened in the years to 2008, when the spending aspect of the programme finally came to an end, we can see that the programme represented the peace process for people on the ground. It was their opportunity to engage with the peace process. At times, when there were difficulties with the political institutions and structures and so on, the PEACE programme provided groups and individuals, the community and voluntary sector, organisations, institutions, local authorities and other agencies with an opportunity to engage with peace building, conflict resolution and regeneration exercises throughout the region. That is perhaps the most significant and important dimension of the PEACE II programme.

Members will find in the documentation examples of some of the projects supported by the programme. It is somewhat invidious to pick out a small selection when one is talking about 7,000 projects in total. Those we have provided are examples of the diversification of agricultural activities and community start-up business programmes. The WAVE trauma centre is indicative of the importance the programme gave to addressing issues faced by victims and survivors of the conflict and their families. That theme has run throughout the three progammes, PEACE I, II and III.

That is a broad-brush picture of the PEACE II programme. It is approaching closure and will be closed formally by the commission in 2010.

INTERREG IIIA is part of a family of cross-Border co-operation programmes which exist throughout Europe. A total of 430 applications were approved, at a value of €183 million. It is a practical programme aimed at identifying opportunities for co-operation across the Border and providing the resources to enable those co-operation activities to take place. It ranges over areas such as health, transport, economics, business, training, co-operation between local authorities and so on, and is part of a family of such initiatives which happen throughout Europe. In that sense it is not unique but it has developed a very good reputation as a programme that has generated genuine cross-Border activity through joint planning, management, implementation and financing of initiatives in a wide range of different sectors.

In the paper I refer to a range of different examples, such as developing inter-regional economic infrastructure where approximately €50 million was spent, broadband access in the north west where €250,000 was spent, Co-operation and Working Together, CAWT, which is a co-operative venture between the two health Departments aimed at improving primary care services and health services generally in the region, and so on. It is a wide-ranging suite of projects.

I move to PEACE III and INTERREG IVA, which bring us to where we are now. The programming period is 2007 to 2013. It came as a very pleasant surprise to everybody in the region that there was to be a PEACE III programme. Most people expected that the PEACE II extension, which went from 2004 to 2006, would be the last bite of the cherry but the arrival of the PEACE III programme was a very pleasant surprise. A total of €333 million was made available which is what we are managing at present.

We tried to do a number of things with PEACE III; in the first place, to reduce the complexity of the implementation structures. Instead of 56 implementing bodies which we had under PEACE II, we now have only two. We eliminated a great deal of the administrative cost structure and the institutional structure. It is a sign of the progress made under PEACE II that we were able to do that. I do not believe we would have been able to do that much earlier. It is a sign of the significant progress made that there was enough confidence in the structures and systems to be able to do that. We have one joint technical secretariat responsible for implementation of the programme and one implementing body which is a consortium of the community relations council. Pobal implements one aspect of the programme, namely, that dealing with addressing issues facing victims and survivors of the conflict.

We tried to reduce the complexity in administrative structures within the programme. Another thing we set out to do was to focus very strongly on the difficult aspects of building positive relationships and reconciliation. PEACE I and II had included a great deal of physical build economic-type activity but they also addressed the very difficult hearts and minds issues of trying to build reconciliation between communities. PEACE III majors on those difficult hearts and minds issues which remain. It involves building positive relationships at local level, acknowledging and dealing with the past and identifying opportunities for the regeneration of physical aspects of communities to create shared common space. Those are the features of the PEACE III programme which differentiate it from the others. It is also a more strategic programme in its orientation and looks to fund a much smaller number of projects. These are larger and will have a long-lasting, iconic and legacy effect.

I shall give examples of some of the projects. I mentioned the peace and reconciliation action plans. A key feature of the PEACE programme has been the involvement of local authorities. In Northern Ireland one innovative thing that happened was that we created eight clusters of local authorities whereby groups of the authorities worked together on planning in their areas. It was the same in the Border counties.

I refer to some issues we face in the PEACE III programme. Obviously, meeting spending targets is a big challenge. All these were EU programmes and two years after there is a commitment of moneys for any given year they must be spent. That is a challenge but it is one the Special EU Programmes Body has met ever since its formation. There has never been one cent or penny of moneys decommitted from any of the EU programmes we have been involved in and we do not intend to make any changes in that regard.

Other issues face us. We continue to work with the victims and survivors of the conflict and to reach out to parts of the community that perhaps have not had the capacity or the propensity to apply to these programmes. I refer in particular to hard-to-reach, Protestant working-class communities. We have developed a significant number of outreach activities to reach out to those communities and engage with them. I believe we have been able to show some progress in that regard. It is something we monitor very closely.

That is a brief overview of PEACE III and shows where we are at. INTERREG IV is a programme with €256 million available to it. If one compares it to INTERREG III where we financed up to 430 projects, in this one we are likely to finance many fewer but much more strategic projects. Our four themes are enterprise, tourism, collaboration and infrastructure. Some high-profile projects of which members may have become aware are the Kelvin project in the north west which links the region with a transatlantic cable, providing significant additional speed and connectivity capacity for the region. Another significant project is the continuation of the co-operation and working together project between the two Departments of health. Totals of €30 million each were allocated to the Kelvin project and the departmental health project and two very sizeable, significant and strategic projects have been put in place.

There are many others in areas such as tourism. I mention, for example, the Sail West project which seeks to take advantage of all the coastal areas of the northern parts of Ireland and Northern Ireland. One of the very welcome and interesting features of INTERREG IV is the involvement of Scotland for the first time. Because of the new maritime border introduced by the EU in Structural Funds programmes, we have been able to engage with Scotland for the current programming period. We have a very significant and interesting number of projects involving our Scottish partners and that continues to be developed. Our chair was part of a welcoming event in foreign affairs in his previous role in meeting some Members of the Scottish Parliament. Other representatives came over at the beginning of the programme period to acknowledge their involvement in the programme. All that concerns INTERREG IV.

Another part of our role I shall mention — I am happy to take any queries members may have on it — is our role in the common chapter, which is an element of the original provisions for what the Special EU Programmes Body might do. Over the period we have generated a number of reports on the common chapter. The common chapter referred to is in the national development plan of Ireland and the Community Support Framework of Northern Ireland. We had a role in monitoring its implementation and roll-out and the promotion of North South co-operation in a range of different areas. Several reports have been generated on that issue.

We engaged in other activities including the promotion of participation in what are referred to as transnational and inter-regional INTERREG programmes. These refer to opportunities for individuals, institutions and public bodies to engage with other regions throughout Europe. Several of these regions have been formed under the INTERREG banner under which we participate. I refer to the Atlantic area, stretching from the top of Scotland down to the southern tips of Spain and Portugal; north west Europe, which covers the whole of north western Europe, including parts of Germany, France, the Benelux countries, the UK and Ireland; and the northern periphery, which covers the topmost peripheral part of Europe. The system encourages North-South co-operation and participation in projects within these programmes. I refer to a fourth programme, INTERREG IVC, which relates to co-operation with regions throughout Europe. It is based in Lille. We encourage people to become involved in that programme. There is a total of 32 projects to date. Our target for the period is approximately 50 projects and we are well on the way to meeting it.

I refer to another interesting activity which came about as a result of the Northern Ireland taskforce report on relationships between Northern Ireland and elsewhere in Europe. This involves the generation of a network of contacts to share the experiences of the peace programmes with other regions of Europe. Thus far in the development we have worked with representatives in the Basque Country and Cyprus along with several networked organisations throughout Europe which are keen to understand the works and activities of the peace programmes, which we are keen to share.

We have a role in the preparation of future programmes as provided for in the legislation and Acts. The European cohesion policy post 2013 will be responsible for the development and engagement of debate on the policy. That is a matter for the member states but at a certain point SEUPB, the Special EU Programmes Body, will be invited, as it has been in the past, to engage in the process of preparing new programmes for the new programme period. We expect this will take place some time towards the end of next year. On behalf of the two Departments of Finance and the Governments we will engage in an extensive consultation process to roll out an understanding of the new cohesion policy and to identify the opportunities and needs that exist and which can be satisfied by a new generation of programmes. Our role is to develop draft operational programmes and to have them submitted to members states and the Commission for approval, to advise the two Governments in the negotiation and implementation of these programmes and to put in place structures for that to happen. This would also apply if there were a PEACE IV programme. We would expect to have an involvement in any future generation or successors to the current INTERREG or territorial co-operation programmes and that would be post 2013. I thank the committee for its patience. It is difficult to know what to leave out in a presentation such as this and I would be pleased to take any questions or observations.

I thank Mr. Colgan. Does Mr. Henry wish to make a contribution?

Mr. Shaun Henry

No.

I will open the discussion to Members. Several people have offered. I call Deputy Margaret Conlon.

I thank the Chairman and I welcome Messrs. Colgan and Henry. They have given us a great overview of all the good work taking place and the vast amount of money that has been invested. This is to be welcomed. Recently, the PEACE III programme was launched in Clones and my constituency has benefited greatly from funding received under the programmes. The delegation indicated one of the aims of PEACE III was to reduce complexity and I thought it would go on to explain that the application forms would be a good deal easier to fill out. Unfortunately, that was not what was indicated. We must pay great tribute to those who work to promote interest in the programmes and assist relevant groups. Filling in application forms is not an easy process and if they are not filled in properly one cannot expect to be a beneficiary of moneys. The delegation deserves great credit.

I agree with much of what was said. Reconciling communities is still a very important issue. It takes many people a considerable period before they can acknowledge the past, park it somewhat and agree to move on. The scars of the past run very deep, which is a difficulty. Reconciliation of these communities is very important and must continue. There is great hope for the future when one considers the younger people who are growing up post-conflict, who are not as prejudiced or intolerant or do not have the trust issues of some of the older generations. They represent potential that should be tapped into.

I refer to the sports complex project. An amount of €7.8 million is a very substantial investment in this complex in Clones. As a Border town, Clones suffered dreadfully during the Troubles. In recent years very substantial investment has taken place through the Government and PEACE programme money. This will be an iconic flagship project. Where better to start to build positive relationships than in terms of sport for all ages? Great initiative is being shown on the part of the locals. We look forward to the day when it is fully completed and up and running.

The delegation referred to Project Kelvin. I wish it were in operation everywhere because it is remarkably important for supporting local businesses. Not to have broadband in this day an age is almost a criminal offence for a business because it is so difficult to survive. As difficult as times are now, a further impediment is added if there is a lack of broadband.

I am greatly interested in co-operation and working together in terms of health care. I have remarked previously that I do not believe the Border should be an impediment when it comes of the provision and delivery of health care. No one has a monopoly on best practice and we have a great deal to share and learn. By working together with people on both sides of the Border we could have much improved delivery of health services. There should be greater co-operation because of the close proximity of hospitals, especially in the area I represent. I am interested in some of the programmes under consideration related to eating disorders, a very significant issue, and there is much we could learn and share in this regard. Again, I thank the delegation for the presentation and I encourage it to keep up the good work. If any extra money is coming our way we will take it.

Go raibh maith agat. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an tUasal Colgan agus an tUasal Henry. I join in the welcome to Messrs Pat Colgan and Shaun Henry today. I thank them and the staff of the SEUPB in Belfast, Omagh and Monaghan for their courtesy and accessibility at all times. It is very much appreciated. I congratulate them on the work they have carried out over the years and I wish them continued success with the roll-out of the PEACE III and INTERREG IVA programmes.

I refer to the PEACE III programme which, I understand, is constructed in two phases. The first phase was to conclude by December this year but has been extended to 31 March and there is talk of a further extension to 30 June. Can the delegation clarify the position in this respect? The impetus behind my question is that, from previous experience, between when phase one ends and phase two begins a time gap arises. People employed in the administration and roll-out only have a certainty up to the conclusion of phase 1. One then has to re-advertise and go through the process. Colleagues have spoken to me and may have raised the issue with the witnesses. Such an approach duplicates the work. It is wasteful. People working in those circumstances deserve greater certainty for the future. We can avoid having to re-advertise staff positions, etc. One also runs the risk at the end of phase 1 of losing experienced staff who may not be available for the commencement of phase 2. That experience is an asset for the future and something to be built upon.

Is it possible to get to a position whereby one rolls naturally into the other and there is greater certainty throughout the entirety of the programme, from 2006 to 2013? In the document on PEACE III and INTERREG IVA circulated by the witnesses, the notation is wrong regarding the period in question. The notation in the document refers to PEACE II and INTERREG III programme periods. I raise this matter for correction purposes in terms of its validity for circulation in the future.

Before leaving PEACE III, I welcome the investment in the Clones Erne East sports partnership project. It is a very important project in an area of significant deprivation in Fermanagh and Monaghan. It has been very much welcomed across both counties and further afield, and I wish it every success in the future.

I refer briefly to Project Kelvin which Mr. Colgan mentioned in his contribution. Could he elaborate on it? A parliamentary reply I received from the Minister, Deputy Ryan, on 9 March indicated it is expected to be completed in April 2010. The fibre-optic terrestrial infrastructure is in place in the telehouse in Derry and testing of the Kelvin fibre network will be completed in April 2010. This will service Donegal, Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Dublin and all the Northern counties but Fermanagh.

Are the witnesses as confident that we will see the roll-out and access of broadband through the Kelvin project in the coming month? Is that their understanding? What is the extent of the SEUPB's commitment to the Kelvin project overall? Do the witnesses have any other salient points they wish to share with us? Is there a reason Fermanagh did not benefit from the network roll-out? They are neighbours' children. I have to ask the question.

On INTERREG IVA, correspondence was referred to me recently from the National Roads Authority regarding certain cross-Border projects. I refer in particular to Ballynacorry or Ballynacargy Bridge, depending on which side of the Border one lives. It is a link between Monaghan and Armagh. The letter from the NRA states that the level of funding available to it is significantly less than in previous years and is primarily being used to fulfil contractual commitments. It is not anticipated, therefore, that further design work will be undertaken on Ballynacorry Bridge for the improvement scheme in the medium term.

I understand the NRA has previously accessed INTERREG funding. Can the witnesses elaborate on that? What level of funding commitment from the NRA is required to qualify for INTERREG IVA? The NRA stated it cannot proceed with further design work on this essential bridge, where there have been many tragic accidents over the years, because it is not able to deflect funding from its own resources to access INTERREG IVA moneys to allow the design stage work to proceed. It is a very worrying situation.

From the delegation's extensive knowledge of this and the precedents which apply, are the restrictions of access to funding such that the view of the NRA is valid? As a result of more straitened economic circumstances for the Exchequer, will projects such as Ballynacorry now be put on hold indefinitely? That would be a tragedy. Many different projects are referred to as flagship in the Good Friday Agreement, and deservedly so. In a small way Ballynacorry is a flagship project in south Armagh, County Monaghan and the link between Dundalk on the east and all points west through Monaghan to Sligo. It is a very important crossing and I am anxious to know what the delegation could tell us about that. I thank it one again.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MLA, MP

I warmly thank Mr. Colgan for his presentation. It is wonderful to have the opportunity to focus on Europe and the European programmes. I congratulate him and his team on all that has been done over a number of years, stretching back beyond its tenure. We have gained a lot in this country and have benefitted greatly from the programmes. I am heartened by his comment that he is reconstituting the ancient Gaelic kingdom of Dalriada which had links to western Scotland.

I wish to make a number of points very simply. I am glad the issue of health features but cross-Border health issues, like draining the Shannon, are always with us and never quite completed. I do not think we will be right until a patient on the northern side of the Border can access health services in the South by voucher or whatever. Somebody on the southern side of the Border should be able to access health services. I do not want to be critical, rather I am being constructive. We have a lot of bureaucracy and discussion on cross-Border health, but very little product as far as Joe Bloggs or his wife are concerned.

Others such as Senator Keaveney are in a better position than I. I find it crazy that somebody in Buncrana has to access secondary health care in Dublin and not Altnagelvin. There is a trickle here and there, but we need to open it up and the committee would do us a tremendous favour if we could open up those gateways to ensure people in Monaghan, Donegal, Cavan and all other areas can be helped.

Dr. McDonnell did something much more upsetting. Deputy McHugh is upset he forgot to mention him and referred to Senator Keaveney.

I am from Inishowen; he is further over.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MLA, MP

I did not realise——

The problem is one has to be able to drive past Letterkenny.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MLA, MP

I do want get into the inter-party politics in Donegal or anything else.

Keep well away from it.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MLA, MP

I wish to make a comment. This health issue keeps popping up and we need results. Even though I am a fair bit away, I talk to people in County Donegal from time to time — I am sure Senator Keaveney and Deputy McHugh talk to them more than I do — and there is frustration at the level of access to some services. We have a world-class, state-of-the-art cancer base in Belfast which must be opened up to the northern end of the State and accessible to people living in those Border counties.

My contact with people in the Border region suggests that, while the INTERREG programmes are up and running, approvals are slow and implementation can be very slow. Is there an opportunity to refocus by streamlining some of the work involved and making access easier or more efficient?

Are the programmes in the South easily accessible to churches? One of the major gaps in the North and one of the best tools for reconciliation is the Protestant church structure, particularly the Methodist and Presbyterian churches which have been robbed of much of their capacity through the Troubles. In many ways they were emasculated but they operate in some of the most difficult areas where partnerships could be created. I have continuously had outreach with groups within these churches to find creative partnerships. However, they are inhibited in what they do because a lot of the money north of the Border comes from the lottery and for reasons of faith, they cannot access gambling money.

Is there involvement between the GAA and rugby clubs? One of the most exciting things I have seen in my own parish is that the GAA club could not survive without a partnership with two rugby clubs and it is probably one of the best clubs in the country as a result.

Coming from the very north of County Donegal, it goes without saying we have had invaluable support from EU programmes during the years. I cannot understand why there is no direct train service from Dublin to Derry. Is EU funding available for such a service? There are two jurisdictions and a number of Ministers for Transport have told me the service from Dublin to Belfast is one entity and the one to Belfast to Derry is another. As a result we cannot call it a Dublin to Derry service. If that is the case, I seek an increase in funding for the Dublin to Belfast line and also for the Belfast to Letterkenny line. We will call it whatever we need to to get what we need. With York Street no longer being the final destination of the Derry service, why is there a delay in upgrading the western track, unless it is the same east-west divide that has always been evident in Ulster? If there was funding available, there would be a clear indication that it was available, allowing us to put pressure on our colleagues to draw it down.

Evaluation was mentioned. We might meet, get along fine and then return to our trenches. That can be difficult but I agree with Dr. McDonnell on the need to evaluate concrete concerns about health. We have medical politics in my region in which consultants will not recommend that people travel from Letterkenny to Belfast because their pals are the people to whom they are being sent in Dublin. If a person needs a hip operation, he or she is often told if he or she goes to Ballykelly, there will be no support service if something goes wrong. That is not true. Someone who is independent should look at this to evaluate why we are not making the progress the level of investment would suggest.

A lot of European money is put into Translink for the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise train service. If I buy my ticket in Belfast, it costs £34 but if I buy it in Dublin, it costs €58. A cup of coffee costs £1.60 or €2.40. Irish Rail will not even advertise that it is doing people. I have raised the issue with the Ombudsman. As the funding agencies, we must evaluate what is happening. If it is a cross-Border entity, no one should exploit on either side. If they want to try it, they should at least tell people who could then choose what they want to do.

We have acknowledged that the level of broadband access is improving. Many, however, are returning from places where a broadband service is commonplace to places such as Greencastle and Culdaff. If this issue is still coming across the EU programmes body's desk, even after the amount spent on rural broadband provision, that is a concern. Anyone who wants a letter of support can approach any one of us.

I compiled a report for the Council of Europe on the teaching of history in areas of recent conflict. The peace process takes place at a political level and happens at various rates. Many of the programmes, however, kick in at community level and often the community which is not linked with the political sphere is moving faster or slower than the political process. When children are at school, the education policy being followed at that location is important. Peace and reconciliation must be linked with educational policy in the two Departments. Teachers must be supported, particularly in interface areas, to say what is not socially accepted in their own communities, that certain actions were wrong or that there is more than one perspective. We should examine how peace and reconciliation programme moneys get to the youngest in our communities and ensure teachers and parents are supported in viewing the wider horizons in how we look at each other. I am not excluding the Twenty-six Counties — we have not dealt with the War of Independence or the Civil War. Moving towards the centenary of 1916 I know from having spoken with some of the ex-paramilitaries on the loyalist side one of their greatest fears is that it will be a flag flying exercise of Republicanism in the negative sense that will exclude again the other people who live on the island. We have to find a mechanism towards 1916 — I do not know how it can be done — because I am not convinced that I am open to as many aspects that I sometimes preach. However, we must find a mechanism whereby we continue get to know each other. While many people talk about sport, an issue that has not been explored is music and the arts. Music can be a weapon. The Lambeg drum remains with me as a weapon when it should not be a weapon, it is an instrument of potential peace. In other words, it is just a musical instrument and unless I get to know why, it annoys me.

If programmes have been done or are about to be done on music as a weapon for perpetuating violence, given that I intend to do that as my next report, any information on it would be useful.

I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. One of the issues being looked at is funding post 2013. We are trying to get an answer to that question. The countries in each of the regions of the Baltic Sea, the North Sea, the Mediterranean and the Danube are already working as one entity and are identifying their problems and solutions. If we do not move fast we will be left behind. The perception is that post 2013, European funding will not be provided on a country-by-country basis as in the past. The witnesses talked about the Atlantic arc, the different variations of who can link with who to make up what. We are struggling with that because we thought the idea of the UK and Ireland working together under the British-Irish Council might be enough of an entity and then we spoke to others and realised that, for some people, it is and, for some people, it is very much not enough of an entity. I would like to hear the views of the delegates on how far to stretch or is it a case that for some aspects we will have to link with certain countries on certain issues and with other countries on other issues? Have the delegates a concept from the work they are doing about what is considered a core, particularly in the context of post 2013? Sometimes we wrap that wee blanket around ourselves thinking we are special because we are Ireland and we get all this money from Europe. That focus has been exceptionally good for the past decade but we cannot be smug that it will continue forever. Any advice on that could be fed into our report, taking on board the witnesses’ expertise.

I welcome Mr. Pat Colgan and Mr. Shaun Henry to the meeting and thank them for all their good works and courtesy in respect of different groups seeking information and guidance. A high point in respect of the witnesses is their accessibility. I have visited their office in Belfast. Their team is very accessible and helpful.

I wish to ask three or four questions. First, is the bottom-up approach. A small community group from Na Dúnaibh, an Irish language group, got in touch with me. How can the PEACE programme facilitate small groups in terms of trying to access project money in the area of language-cultural tourism? There is a barrier whereby the only vehicles available to drive it are the administrative and accounting expertise. Obviously in dealing with large amounts of funding as in the case of the Special EU Programmes Body, there is a need to have checks in place. If there are small community groups in Scotland, Belfast, Donegal, Cavan and Sligo, how can they be facilitated to come together? Is there a mechanism in place to bring in an accountancy firm or some recognised body to drive their application per se?

My second question is on the escalation of the peace walls in Northern Ireland. I appreciate this has been referred to in the context of funding. Do the witnesses see an opportunity within its new round of funding to drive the whole interface funding applications given that in 1998 there were 17 peace walls but that number has escalated to 53? Is there a facility to help different community groups at the interface level to drive that agenda?

My third question refers to broadband and here I will be parochial. Senator Keaveney mentioned Culdaff. There are small pockets in Donegal that have been left out of that community project, in which the witnesses have been involved with Donegal County Council, including Churchill. There are a few weak links. Is it possible for the witnesses to contact their partners with a view to assessing the present situation? Project Kelvin is great for the north west. However, with extra funding there could be joined-up thinking in terms of providing broadband infrastructure into the Inishowen Peninsula and obviously this will attract the attention of Senator Keaveney. It would not require much extra funding to bring the Project Kelvin link to Buncrana. It goes through Manorcunningham and into Letterkenny but there is also an opportunity to bring it into the Inishowen Peninsula. The Inishowen Peninsula is bigger than County Louth and has a population greater than that of County Leitrim.

My final question is on real tourism. At present we have a joint motion between the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly and Scotland, Wales and all the relevant islands, Northern Ireland within Ireland, signed up to by all parties from all political persuasions to investigate the possibility of a cost-benefit analysis in respect of tourism. Obviously we will look at the whole north-west linkage and all-island co-operation. I am also cognisant of the Chairman and his contribution to that motion because today the first phase of the western rail corridor is opening. There is a massive drive towards getting the second phase up and running and there will be a drive to have it extended to Sligo. There is a great opportunity for an all-island rail link on our doorstep. What is the best vehicle to drive it in terms of pursuing a funding application? Does it have to be a joint local authority link up? Does it have to be through the Parliaments, given that the motion has been passed and approved unanimously by the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly? Given that Scotland comes under the umbrella of the new round of funding, is there an opportunity for the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Irish Government to drive an application? Would that be the vehicle to drive an application for funding for a cost-benefit analysis?

I labour under the same difficulty as my colleague and friend, Senator Keaveney. Both of us were delayed by Seanad votes and a particular discussion. It was difficult to be here but I would have liked to have heard all of Mr. Colgan's presentation. There is a distinct disadvantage in responding without having heard it although I have been reading through his paper. I thank Mr. Colgan and his office for their courtesy and assistance. I had a personal involvement with the Castle Saunderson project and he and his office were particularly courteous in assisting the people. That is appreciated. The Castle Saunderson project is an exciting example of cross-Border co-operation and cross-island co-operation at its very best in that it will be an activity centre for young people, irrespective of the Border, and will have an international as well as a national dimension. I wish to put on record my thanks.

The major challenge for us all is to implement the Good Friday Agreement at intergovernmental and community level and bring to fruition the aspirations in terms of North-South co-operation, community building and so on. One of the major challenges remaining, from information I have gathered anecdotally and my own knowledge, is presented by low level sectarianism. While we have had good solutions offered, the intergovernmental conference and the power sharing Executive at a macro level, with much progress having been made in recent months, there is stil low level sectarianism north of the Border and, to some degree, in the South. We heard a stark announcement yesterday which will have an effect across the island by the United Kingdom Orange Order which has come out against the idea of Pope Benedict visiting England. That is a bleak and almost Neanderthal message but it underlines the fact that there is still low level sectarianism which must be dealt with.

The major emphasis should be on encouraging people to travel to the North. Many people, even those living in Border counties in the South, do not travel to the North. This is a major issue. People should be encouraged to holiday in the North and engage in exchange programmes. That is crucial, but the reverse is equally important. Anything the representatives can do in the implementation of their programme to promote exchanges in the form of trips to and from the North, meetings on either side of the Border and interplay between the North and South should be done. This should be made a condition of funding for projects. It should be written into the conditions that they must show evidence of cross-Border human contact because it is at that level understanding is built and mistrust broken down.

Very good measures are referred to in the INTERREG 4A programmes. The progress made on many fronts in the health sector is very welcome. The research produced on sea algae by third level institutions North and South is also welcome.

The all-Ireland rail link mentioned by Deputy McHugh, Senator Keaveney and others is one I would commend. It promotes the moving of people between the two parts of the island and the breaking down of the physical and psychological borders. There is nothing more enlightening than contact between people in bridge-building. It breaks down prejudice which is what ultimately must happen. I am sorry I was not present to hear the full presentation but I appreciate the work the representatives do.

On accessibility and the point made by Deputy Conlon which was reiterated to a degree by others, in so far as they can, we exhort the representatives to continue to make the application process as accessible as possible. I accept there is knowledge that must be gathered but it must be done in the simplest way possible. The application forms should not act as an inhibition, while the application process must not inhibit people from seeking grant aid. It would be a shame if a good project was missed on that basis and a bad one got through the system because those involved were very skilled in that regard.

Mr. Colgan has heard a wide range of diverse views from professional practitioners north and south of the Border. He now has an opportunity to respond.

Mr. Pat Colgan

The members have raised many interesting issues. These are matters we deal with on a day-to-day basis. I am pleased to hear they have a detailed understanding and knowledge of our programmes and projects. I am impressed by the level of detail they possess and thank them for it.

I will mention briefly the role of the Special EU Programmes Body, SEUPB, in certain sectors, including transport, broadband, health and so on. Our role is one of a facilitator of a process to bring together partners and players on both sides of the Border and give them the opportunity to come up with an idea for a project or a proposal that would meet the criteria set for the programmes for which we are responsible.

On the question of roads, for example, the issue was raised under our INTERREG programme and Ballymacarry bridge was used as an example. We have a sum of €10 million under the current programme for road related initiatives. We also have a general fund for infrastructure initiatives but it would have to be a small, infrastructural project that would be involved. Our role is to bring together the Departments or statutory agencies responsible. We have worked with the National Roads Authority, the DRD and the Department of Transport and they have come up with projects for us. We are working with them to identify specific initiatives but we would take our policy priorities from the Departments responsible for these agencies, while at the same time facilitating an exchange, contact and a debate on possibilities and opportunities. Generally, that is our role. On a number of occasions we have engaged with a few members in examining the potential for specific initiatives in certain areas. We are always happy to engage on of any of the approaches made to us in fulfilling that role. In tourism, for example, there are initiatives in the four counties of Louth, Monaghan, Armagh and Down at which we are looking. We are very happy to engage in that regard.

On broadband activities, Project Kelvin is very tightly managed, with a contract for which the lead partner is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland. The relevant Department here is the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Payments made as part of the project are tightly monitored and related to milestones reached in the roll-out of the project. All payments are up to date. That means all milestones have been reached, that the project is on schedule and that it will do what it was intended to do. That is essential for us in terms of our expenditure commitments. We are happy to take on board suggestions made by a number of members in terms of possible extensions to the project. However, it would require an intervention by way of a project application and additional funding would have to be found. We have a limited pot of funding under the current programme but in terms of our consultations on future programmes or funding that might become available in the future, we will be happy to deal with that aspect.

My colleague, Mr. Henry, will deal with phases 1 and 2 the PEACE programme, the issue raised by Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Shaun Henry

I thank members for their very positive comments about the implementation of the programmes. The staff of the organisation will be encouraged by them because we work in a very challenging environment on a North-South basis and operate in a complex regulatory environment which sometimes makes it difficult for people to access the programmes. We are very conscious of this and like to think our staff make an extra effort to try to increase their accessibility.

On the specific issues raised about the phasing of the PEACE programme, the period of implementation for the programme runs from 2007 to 2013, with a further two years in which to spend up to 2015. Most of the programme is not phased but when we launched it in 2007, we thought it would be opportune to phase implementation of those parts of it being implemented by the local authorities. The reason was that we had the expectation that with the implementation of RPA in Northern Ireland the local authorities would have different boundaries by 2010 and 2011, so we built in a natural break point in implementation of the programme for developing positive relationships at local level to enable us to take into account the new local authority boundaries. That break point is occurring now in 2010. Originally we had envisaged that local authorities would implement their programmes as to local clusters by the end of this calendar year. We have indicated to them that we can give them another six or nine months to roll that out through 2011. The local authorities south of the Border have indicated that they would still like to work to the schedule of implementing the programme as originally planned, and to implement phase 1 by the end of this calendar year. We are very happy with that.

We are hoping to make the call for phase 2 of the programme in the next number of months. That should give us sufficient time to ensure that approvals are in place before phase 1 is completed. We are confident that there should be no gap in funding between phase 1 and phase 2. We are well aware of the difficulties any gap in funding would give to staff members and so forth. We are working to ensure that will not happen and we are confident that it should not happen.

On a number of other issues that were raised, there was some discussion on health matters and CAWT. We have a programme of €30 million for health which is being implemented over a period of five or six years. It is a significant amount of money in terms of the INTERREG programme but it is a very small amount in terms of the health budgets North and South. We are hoping to pilot some of the initiatives and try to instill a new working culture within the health professionals and health managers North and South. In this programme we cannot aspire to addressing all the issues about improving the implementation of health services on a cross-Border basis but we can pilot some initiatives. Part of that is the evaluation of the CAWT programme, which will be critical so we can learn lessons and try to mainstream those lessons into wider health policy.

With regard to the implementation of aspects of the INTERREG programme by the cross-Border groups, one group, the East Border Region, was mentioned but the comments apply broadly to the five cross-Border groups within the programme. The cross-Border groups have been allocated an indicative budget of €60 million, which is approximately 25% of the value of the INTERREG programme. They were originally requested to develop multi-annual plans and to submit them for approval. They submitted those plans. It then transpired there was insufficient detail in the plans to enable us to approve funding. The groups were then asked to submit projects on a case by case basis. We are now going through that process. We clarified the application process with the groups last September. We appreciate that there has been a degree of frustration about the process but we are managing this extremely tightly. We are reporting on a regular basis to the Minister for Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland, who is taking a personal interest in monitoring the implementation of this aspect of the programme. We are hoping that the projects for which we have received applications should be through the assessment process by this summer. That is the timetable towards which we are working.

We acknowledge the frustrations that have been evident with the process. We also acknowledge that the cross-Border groups have a significantly different role to play in this programming period as opposed to previous programming periods. In previous programming periods they were managing and administrating funding. They were making calls for applications and issuing letters of offer. In this programming period we have asked the groups to develop strategic plans for their regions and to bring forward strategic interventions. Perhaps we all underestimated the challenge involved in that process but we have learned from the experience over the last 18 months and we are confident we are moving forward in a joint manner. The decisions should be made by the summer this year.

I will now hand over to Pat Colgan.

Mr. Pat Colgan

Mention was made of the GAA and rugby, and the opportunities presented by sport, art, music and so forth. There are a large number of projects in that area. Consider the Clones Erne East Partnership which a number of members mentioned. That would not have been possible without the proactive engagement of the Ulster council of the GAA, which made the grounds and space available. That, in itself, was indicative of a huge road travelled in that area. We do a great deal of work with the FAI as well as fan groups in sport, for example, addressing issues such as racism and sectarianism within sport. There are many initiatives already ongoing in that regard. There are over 7,000 projects funded under PEACE II so it is very difficult to convey a sense of all of them, but there are many small projects in that number which are doing that type of work.

It is also open to the type of initiative mentioned by Senator Keaveney in terms of engagement with education. A great deal of that type of work is ongoing through community groups and special interest groups. Senator O'Reilly mentioned that he was not present earlier in the meeting. I mentioned earlier that over 864,000 individuals have been engaged with the PEACE II programme and, of those, 164,000 people have been involved in cross-Border contact. There is a significant amount of that. Cross-Border co-operation is a condition without which one cannot get funding under the INTERREG programme. It is not an absolute condition for the PEACE programme because we believe that certain things need to be done on either side of the Border, but our target is that over 30% of the work of the PEACE programme would be specifically cross-Border. It has been in the past and will continue to be so.

The Deputy mentioned peace walls and difficult reconciliation issues between communities. Much of the work that we are doing through our local authority cluster groups and community groups at the interface area is aimed at addressing such issues. Many direct interface initiatives are taking place. That is also part of what we are doing with the creating shared spaces part of the PEACE II programme. The Skainos project, which I mention in the paper I submitted to the committee, is at the interface area at the bottom of the Newtownards Road in the Short Strand. That is creating a new village or urban area which is shared space between the two communities on both sides. The peace walls are very difficult, complex issues but we are working with communities on both sides of them to examine what might be done. Fascinating work is taking place there.

One of the members referred to the contribution of individuals. The heroes on the ground and the work they have done are the great unsung people of these programmes over the years. We are just facilitators who try to facilitate what might be possible. There was also reference to churches. EU funding cannot be given directly to a faith-based group per se but many churches and church communities are involved as part of community initiatives, making their halls, premises and facilities available. We are engaged with them in community-based initiatives and activities. I understand what Dr. Alastair McDonnell, MP, is saying about the potential opportunities there are in groups like the Presbyterian and Methodist churches and evangelical groups. However, we are actively engaging with quite a lot of these on the ground and are facilitating them to come forward with suggestions and ideas. Perhaps we could do more as there is always potential for more, but quite a lot is happening. If any members of the committee have specific suggestions for groups with which they think we should be engaging, please let us know because we would be happy to talk to them.

Does Mr. Colgan have any comment on the potential for our best way forward post 2013?

Mr. Pat Colgan

The Senator raised an interesting point about what I referred to as the macro-regions. She mentioned the Baltic and the Danube, which are developing strongly as suggested macro-regions. There is a suggestion that a Mediterranean one might emerge as well.

It is nearly there, and the North Sea as well.

Mr. Pat Colgan

Yes. It is for the member states to take forward the negotiations on the shape of cohesion policy as it goes forward. Within our Scottish, Northern Ireland and Border region stakeholders, interest has been expressed that we should be taking advantage of this. I have had some involvement with programmes in the Danube and Baltic regions, and have direct experience of how they have emerged. They are not necessarily driven solely by geography, but rather by common issues and problems. The most important thing is to identify what the common issues and problems might be here. One of them in this region, for example, could be energy and the potential for soft energy. We are seen as one of the richest potential sources of soft energy in the whole of Europe. The northern periphery of Europe is categorised and if one looks at some of the regional reports, one can see the potential is there for wind, algae-based, sea-based and biofuels energy. There is potential and that may be one of the issues that could pull together a region like this towards co-operation.

There is no significant additional funding for these macro-regions, but it does provide a structure for joined-up planning and better use of existing resources and policy instruments. There is a lot to be learned from the regions that are doing those kinds of things. As I said, it is for the member states to take the initiative. If we are asked to engage with this process, it is something that we would willingly do.

In broad brush-stroke terms Mr. Colgan referred in his reply to the National Roads Authority. I was quite particular and specific in my question. I know it is unfair to expect Mr. Colgan to answer in any detail, but could he furnish me with a considered response subsequently on the Ballinacarry Bridge issue? What funding has been available heretofore to the NRA through the Special EU Programmes Body? What is its current status? It is of great concern to communities on both sides of the Border. As I have already indicated, it is a minor flagship project that needs to get under way as soon as possible. Can Mr. Colgan do that?

Mr. Pat Colgan

I would be very happy to come back to the Deputy on that.

There is one closed Border road in my area and I would be interested to know if Mr. Colgan has any role in this matter. It is Canning's Lane-Coney Road between Derry and Muff. I am not sure if anyone realises that there is still a closed road there. If both jurisdictions were given a little nudge in that direction, I would be more than pleased. Derry City Council's solicitors will be very upset that I have raised the matter again.

I completely agree with what Mr. Colgan said on the PEACE III programme. We fought hard for it and it was one of the many occasions on which Ireland punched above its weight. Tribute for that €200 million under the PEACE III programme must go to the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, the former British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and in particular to our outstanding ambassador in Brussels, Ms Anne Anderson. I was part of the team on those negotiations. We went into a European Council meeting, doubtful whether we would get €50 million, but with a lot of skilled negotiations during that Council we came out with €200 million. I wish to acknowledge the contribution made by the aforementioned great people, as well as all the other officials who worked with them.

I have a question pertaining to the impact of the outstanding programmes that the Special EU Programmes Body administers in Northern Ireland. Are they embedding and deep-rooted in the community, and are they eliminating the sectarianism to which colleagues have referred? That is critically important.

INTERREG is another area where Ireland has punched above its weight in the past. We owe a great debt of gratitude to the former European Commissioner, Bruce Millan from Scotland. Twenty years ago, the Commission proposed the abolition of INTERREG, but we felt it was a critical instrument of support in Northern Ireland and along the Border. Bruce Millan, in particular, played a major role in assisting us to sustain it. It has been a major productive instrument right across the Union, but particularly here and in Northern Ireland.

There is great potential to capitalise on the outstanding expertise that Mr. Colgan and his staff have created in Northern Ireland as a model for peace development — not just in Northern Ireland but across Europe and the wider world. There is great future potential in the fields of geo-tourism, heritage tourism, geology, archaeology, military links and the old heritage of Ireland. Whether it concerns the Boyne, Aughrim, Athenry, Limerick, into Northern Ireland and across to Culloden, there is potential to develop a massive mobility fulfilling the European mandate for the movement of goods, people and services. In the tourism field in particular, there is a great opportunity that we can develop through the Special EU Programmes Body.

I endorse what Dr. Alastair McDonnell, MP, has said. There is a potential to have greater interactive engagement in the health and medical spheres. An outstanding centre of excellence is run at the Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast, by Professor Paddy Johnston. There is a capacity to deliver greater projects for many patients across Ulster and even into County Louth. We could have greater action in that regard.

As regards marine potential, Ireland has ten times more water resources than land. Our territorial operations have potential, particular on the marine side. Our Marine Institute is equal to the best in the world and is currently driving the smart ocean concept. There is great potential in partnership with the Special EU Programmes Body and the UK to exploit that huge marine resource, which is virtually untapped. It could have a big economic impact for the island of Ireland in future.

The witnesses may wish to respond to those comments. I do not want to delay the meeting, but I wished to put those thoughts on the record as they could form part of a work plan, which is critical for the future of our island. No organisation is better fitted to undertake such work than the Special EU Programmes Body, given its professional capacity and administrative ability to deliver on behalf of everyone, North and South. It can give value for money to the EU for the investment it has made, is making and hopefully will make for many decades to come.

Mr. Pat Colgan

I thank the Chairman and wish to comment briefly on one or two things he said. I thank him for his kind words about our organisation. We are proud of the work we do. The areas of potential co-operation and development he referred to are in the forefront of our own thinking as we move ever closer to the new funding period. The Chairman put his finger on quite a lot of things which will be themes in terms of future territorial co-operation or INTERREG-type initiatives. As we move forward, I imagine they are the ones that will start coming to the surface as matters we will be examining for future programmes.

The Chairman spoke about the impact of the PEACE programme, which is something we take very much to heart. We have developed unique and innovative methodologies to try to measure the impact of this kind of work in the area. For example, we have introduced into our current PEACE programme a technique referred to as the aids for peace evaluation methodology, which is international best practice in the region. There is not a lot of best practice around in terms of this kind of thing. We have developed a deep understanding of what reconciliation means and have provided a definition of that to guide us in the kind of activities we do.

We also do regular attitude surveys. We have been doing them for the past ten years. We take control groups of people who have participated in the programmes and people who have not and look at how their attitudes have changed and evolved over a period of time. We can see some significant developments and changes in that area.

We also measure community uptake to see if there is increased uptake from the various parts of the community. We have also measured the economic impact of the peace programme. Evaluation is very close to our heart and to what we try to do, challenging and all as it is. We will continue to take that on board.

I thank members for their comments and the opportunity to be here.

I thank Mr. Colgan. I warmly congratulate the SEUPB on the publication of its first bulletin, euroPA, of which we all received a copy. It gives a very clear message on the impact it is making and helps us, as public representatives, to be fully aware of and to be able to get the message across about the role it plays and the impact it is making.

I sincerely thank Mr. Colgan and Mr. Henry for a clear and informative presentation. It is important for all of us to remember and acknowledge the support which we, on the island of Ireland, continue to receive from the European Union as we continue to move through the peace process and into a process of reconciliation.

It is also important for us, as public representatives, in this Republic to acknowledge the generosity of the Union in that it accepts us as a member state and it acknowledges Northern Ireland as a separate entity. It also allows us to partner with any other member state of the Union, in particular a member of the UK in sourcing funds for projects in Northern Ireland, especially Structural Funds. That has been a tremendous and generous decision of the Union over the years and we can never forget that. Great work has been done through EU funding to undo the harm caused to the social and economic fabric in Northern Ireland and to the Border regions as a result of the long years of the Troubles.

Today's discussion has been extremely useful. I thank the members who turned up and participated in this very important discussion. It is my hope that we will continue this in the future. I have had the privilege of visiting the SEUPB's office and meeting its staff on a number of occasions and I thank it sincerely.

When I was Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, we ran the first and only European week in the European Union in Galway. It was a week of politics, science, research and Europeanisation and it was a statement about Europe. The contribution Mr. Colgan and his team made, physically and orally, to that week was outstanding. If I was to nominate any organisation as the most outstanding that week, it would be the SEUPB in Belfast. For that, I am deeply grateful. We wish it continued success.

It was great to have the SEUPB here today and we look forward to meeting it again and having further discussions on what we believe is a vital component in the reconciliation of the people of Ireland.

An anomaly has emerged in the past few weeks in regard to a cross-Border gun club. Members from this side of the Border are not being issued with licences for guns in order to be part of this club. It is a classic example of the sort of administrative challenges we need to overcome. Is there a way we can try to move this forward? The obvious way would be to invite the Chief Constable of the PSNI and the Garda Commissioner to the committee, which was done at the British-Irish Interparliamentary Assembly. It is a major anomaly.

Members of this gun club, which is located in the North, from County Donegal had licences up to the changes in the administrative process for getting gun licences. Despite all the positives, possibilities, etc., which go with cross-Border activities, we need to address this anomaly. With the Chairman's experience and advice, we may have an opportunity to drive this forward.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I received his e-mail and representations from people in the Republic about this anomaly. We will raise it, through the secretariat, with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department. We will come back to the Deputy at the next meeting with a report. We will try to make some progress on it.

I have invited Garda Commissioner Murphy and PSNI Chief Constable Baggot to address this committee. We hope to arrange that later this year. If we do not achieve an administrative resolution in the interim, we will have an opportunity to raise it with those good people when we meet them.

On a matter of housekeeping, if this room was part of a warmer homes scheme, it would hit the wrong side of warm. It is quite cold in the room. Perhaps somebody would——

I had not observed that but I am sorry to hear it. To eliminate the cold, we will adjourn immediately for a nice warm lunch.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 29 April 2010.
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