JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2011

Role of Sports Organisations in Combatting Sectarianism, Racism and Discrimination: Discussion

Chairman

We now move on to the main item on our agenda today which is a discussion on the role of sports organisations and individuals in combatting sectarianism, racism and discrimination. I welcome Mr. Ryan Feeney, head of community development, Ulster GAA; Mr. Garrett Mullen, co-ordinator of Show Racism the Red Card; Mr. Trevor Ringland, a former Irish rugby union international; and Mr. Robin Wilson from the Irish Football Association and founder of Democratic Dialogue. I look forward to hearing from our guests today. I firmly believe in the power of sport in making a positive contribution to a better shared future everywhere but, in particular, in those communities that are divided.

The Good Friday Agreement made clear that, in our endeavours to build a real and lasting peace, we must strive in every practical way towards reconciliation. The agreement also notes the work being done by many organisations to develop reconciliation North and South of our island and recognises that such work is having a vital role in consolidating the peace process.

The aspect of this agreement charges us as public representatives to engage with groups, organisations and individuals addressing these challenges. Today's session will focus on this issue and we will listen to organisations and individuals and hear about their experiences and thoughts on how we can combat sectarianism and racism. The speakers addressing the committee today come from a range of cultural and sporting backgrounds and it will be very interesting to hear their thoughts.

Before I invite the delegates to give us their thoughts, I inform them that they are protected by absolute privilege in regard to any utterances they make before the committee but if they are directed by the committee to cease making particular statements and they continue to so do, they are entitled only to qualified privilege. I ask delegates to take that into account. In any evidence they give, they should not name any individual inside this House or outside it nor should they identify anybody in a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call our first speak, Mr. Garrett Mullen.

Mr. Garrett Mullen

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation. I hope we will have a good discussion. I have circulated a pack to members to familiarise them with the kind of work we do. I will explain Show Racism the Red Card, how it was founded and the kind of work we do to impact on the issues of racism and sectarianism, because we have had an impact on that also. In the north east of England in 1995, Shaka Hislop was the Newcastle United goalkeeper. Newcastle United were 15 points ahead of Manchester United at the time and the players were seen as heroes, adored by the city, which is a one club town so there is a particular resonance. The team was multicultural and Shaka Hislop also played internationally for Trinidad and Tobago. One day he was out with his family and stopped at a garage close to St. James's Park. He was putting petrol in his car and some teenage boys, perhaps with nothing better to do, started to shout racist abuse at him until one of them clocked who they were shouting abuse at. I do not know how the committee members would react but the young lads, as soon as they realised who they were shouting racist abuse at, smiled and ran over to ask for autographs. There had been a quick change in perception from that of a black man putting petrol in his car to seeing this man as the goalkeeper of Newcastle United. That caused Shaka Hislop to reflect on his role as a footballer and a role model. He started to do school visits and talk to young people about the impact of racism. While racism has been largely addressed at the top levels of English football, it is still a problem in society.

Other players such as Les Ferdinand, Irish ex-Newcastle player John Anderson, Curtis Fleming from Middlesbrough and David Kelly and Niall Quinn from Sunderland got involved in the campaign, along with players like John Beresford, who was playing for England at the time. The campaign grew from there in the north east of England and now the Show Racism the Red Card project has offices in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany and Ireland.

We launched the project formally in Ireland in 2006 with the support of Dessie Farrell, the Gaelic Players Association, and Niall Quinn, along with the players' associations from rugby and soccer. We recognised then the difference between Ireland and Britain in terms of harnessing the role model and profile of sports stars to convey an anti-racism education message that in Ireland there is a diversity of sporting interests, not least Gaelic games having a higher profile perhaps than soccer and rugby and being one of the top sports.

When we launched in Ireland we wanted to work with different sporting codes to convey the anti-racism education message. We had some funding in 2007 that enabled us to produce an educational DVD and I have supplied committee members with copies in the pack that was distributed. It comes with a 28 page booklet that is now out of print but the pack is an educational resource available to teachers and youth worker to promote learning around racism and responses to discrimination. The pack features players such as Seán Óg Ó hAilpín, Kevin Kilbane and some League of Ireland players, as well as young people relating their views and experiences. In the presentation, we give an idea of the reactions of teachers on the effectiveness of the package.

How big a problem is racism? Deputy Ó Riordáin is here today and he made a complaint about the statements by the councillor in Naas. The problems with responding to racism politically are highlighted by the request for him to clarify his report. There is a discomfort in Ireland about responding to racism and we must recognise it is a reality. Although the Office for the Promotion of Migrant Integration records only just over 100 racist crimes per year, racism is a reality. The ESRI carried out a survey that found that one in three immigrants had experienced racism, rising to one in two for those from black African backgrounds in the year previous to the survey.

It is also a problem for young people. The Teachers Union of Ireland carried out a survey of the delegates attending the 2010 conference which found 45% had witnessed racism in the classroom during the previous month. It is also a problem in society in general where reports have highlighted racism as it affects those working in the taxi trade, both from other drivers and customers. We can look at reasons why this is a problem but those are points that indicate there is a problem. We have also profiled some incidences on our website and there have been quite a few violent attacks.

As well as promoting an anti-racism education message through harnessing the roles and profiles of the players, we have done a lot of work with some sporting codes to promote integration and awareness. The FAI introduced a rule specific to racism in the 2007 rule book and as a result players have been banned for five matches at League of Ireland level and at grassroots level, players have been fined and clubs have been fined for racist chanting or abuse directed towards players.

That response makes it useful for us when visiting schools and youth facilities to say to young people that if they experience racism, they should report it because something can be done about it. I have included the penalties that have been applied to clubs in my written presentation. That also applies internationally through UEFA.

We have done a lot of work with different bodies on sectarianism and cross-Border, cross-community projects, particularly in the peace partnerships in the Border counties of Cavan, Leitrim and Donegal. In Scotland sectarianism has been recognised as a specific problem and the Scottish Government funded the Show Racism the Red Card educational resource pack called Show Bigotry the Red Card. It has players from both sides of the sectarian divide within Scotland to talk about "Rivals, not Enemies", which is the title of the resource the campaign produced.

The programmes we have encourage schools to engage with the anti-racism education message and do something about it. Our creative poster competition has so far attracted 63 schools and youth services to participate in many counties across the State. The competition has been evaluated and the feedback has been very positive. We are excited to be running the competition again; it is a great way to encourage schools. One of the teachers has commented that it also helps the children in terms of working as a team and developing IT skills. Those are unintended outcomes but they add to our resource base. We received a €6,000 grant from the reconciliation fund in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which we used in our programme to run an inter-cultural summer camp in Glencolmcille in west Donegal. Children from both sides of the Border, from many backgrounds and at least six or seven different religions were exposed to learning about different cultures. It was modelled on the Gaeltacht experience and members will see the feedback on it in the presentation as well as on our website.

We have a project in Scotland, which addresses the issue of sectarianism there. Sometimes in the rivalry between Celtic and Rangers, the Irish question is a so-called political football with which to bash the other side. On our website, we take reports of racism and how it occurs and I can answer questions.

I would be happy to take questions from members, should they have questions relating to the points I made.

Chairman

Is the next speaker, Mr. Trevor Ringland?

Mr. Trevor Ringland

My paper Platform for Change is about sport and reconciling society and it is complementary to what I will say this afternoon. I thank members for providing me with the opportunity to address the joint committee on this important issue.

Attitude reflects leadership. That comment ran to the heart of a Walt Disney film "Remember the Titans", based on a true story around the racial tensions faced by an American college football team after the respective black and white colleges were integrated in the 1970s. Overcoming inherited racism was a problem and it illustrated the importance of doing the right thing and the power of friendship in meeting the challenges faced as they strived to build a successful team. I would argue that it has been a failure of leadership in our past that has left us with a society too heavily influenced by sectarian and culturally racist attitudes and which damaged the true heart of the nation as a whole and those same prejudices emerged as racism in our increasingly diverse society against those seeking to build a home here.

Our society is facing significant economic difficulties as a result of the current recession. As we seek to address those problems and build a strong economy, it is also an opportunity to reflect on the social foundations of our society and, in doing so, create an inclusive and stable society at peace with itself and reflective of the true nature of the Irish people. A strong social economy underpins a successful financial one. The way we practised relationships in this island in the past too often caused division, death, poverty and tragedy. The Troubles led to more than 3,600 deaths, thousands more injured, 20,000 imprisoned, a Balkanised country and a fractured economy and it is still uncertain if we in Northern Ireland can escape the consequences of that conflict, so as not to repeat it. Much has been achieved and our society in Northern Ireland is much better but considerable work remains to be done in our marathon without end, to build that better and shared future, the achievement of which surely will be the greatest tribute we can pay to all of those who suffered loss.

I pay tribute to those seeking to challenge the issues of sectarianism, cultural racism, which I describe as an anti-Irishness and an anti-Britishness and racism. It is time that it is a political imperative. I define the problems as follows. The first is identity. To create a concept of Irishness that denies its British tradition or Britishness that refuses to accept that there is an Irish dimension to its identity is quite frankly nonsense, particularly in Northern Ireland and in a Northern Ireland context. To do so is a denial of the complex history of how the social make-up of this island has been shaped by the past and continues to be so. A variation of a quotation from the Ulster poet John Hewitt points to a different way when he found himself in a debate on the complexities of the Irish identity held in The Irish Times in 1971. He said that I am a Belfast man, an Ulster man, I am Irish and I am British and those last two are interchangeable and I am European and anyone who demeans any one part of me demeans me as a person. That best defines Northern Irishness and can be adapted to include Polish, Indian, Chinese and so on in our increasingly diverse society. It can be also adapted to reflect the true character of the rest of the people on this island and its key strength is that it is inclusive, which was recognised by the former President, Mary McAleese, who readily accepted that one could be both British and Irish. It is a simple but more pragmatic updating of the Wolfe Tone vision of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter.

The second is a bad religion. Gandhi once said in South Africa that when he reads the scripture he sees Christ, but when he meets Christians he does not see Christ. If he had visited Ireland he may well have come to a similar conclusion depending, of course, on whom he met. While we have the victims of bad Christianity in the past, there also have been some fantastic examples of true Christian principles being applied and worked through such as the Corrymeela Community project and Ray Davey and John Morrow, Fr. Gerry Reynolds, Reverend Kenneth Newell, Archbishop Robin Eames and the Reverend John Dunlop and many others. Living out that simple message of love your neighbour and treat others the way you would like to be treated, together with promoting a tolerance of all other faiths will provide a solid foundation for our society to build upon.

The third is bad politics. Our politics in the past was too often about demonising the other, exclusion, the promotion of fear, victimhood, sectarianism and cultural racism. Under the 1998 Agreement, the consent principle was endorsed by the people on this island as the only basis for constitutional change. As a consequence politics could be argued in a different and, importantly, in a constructive way. As a Unionist, it could be about promoting a Northern Ireland for all inside the United Kingdom, but with strong relationship with those with whom we share this island. As a Nationalist or republican it could be making Northern Ireland work to prove that an all island Ireland would work, while having good relationships between these islands. To argue our politics in such a way, would first and foremost be the right thing to do while also strategically making sense.

The fourth are the social structures for which we argue. There are three types of social structures: assimilation, where everyone is the same, which is totally unrealistic; multiculturalism, where everyone is different and allowed to act independently and without concern for others, which tends to fragment society; and interdependence, where we recognise the difference between individual groupings but work to find a way in which they can operate together constructively. A mixed rugby team would be probably the best example. It has different shapes, sizes and characters all having to find a way to work together constructively so that the team succeeds. Each understanding that while he has rights and entitlements he also has responsibilities to others on the team.

The fifth is conflict and death. What we have done to each other has been terrible. It has left much tragedy and significantly damaged relationships, partitioned Ireland and Balkanised Northern Ireland. In the past we allowed those who hated the most to determine the relationships between the rest of us, and we should stand up clearly and state never again will we revisit the wrongs of the past. We must seek to build a shared and stable society on this island. Is that not the best tribute we can pay to those who suffered so much?

How can sport help? There is one group of people, much demonised, who have shown real leadership in respect of the issues we seek to address today. It is the Northern Ireland football fans under the Irish Football Association, IFA. I use them as an example because what they did is really what the rest of the people of Ireland need to do, particularly our leaders. They stood up and admitted they were sectarian and culturally racist and recognised that it was destroying the game they loved. Through the leadership of such individuals as Michael Boyd and Jim Rainey they challenged themselves and in doing so created a much more inclusive environment in their sport, turning Windsor Park from a sea of red, white and blue to a sea of green and a more inclusive place. The sectarian songs were challenged and abandoned by the fans themselves. They want everybody in Northern Ireland to support its football team. The work continues as they look for a new more inclusive song to add to the national anthem to be played at the matches and crucially, through the football for all programmes, they have shown that with good leadership the people themselves respond to it and sectarianism and racism can be tackled. In the same way, the GAA has taken a strong anti-sectarian approach and has been working to reach out to a section of the community on the island that previously felt alienated from its games. The GAA represents the cultural aspect of society and coming from that position, is working now to try to show that it is open to others to come and enjoy those cultural expressions as well as their sport. It is extending its strong sense of community. As with the IFA, that is a work in progress, but again inclusive leadership is being shown and I pay tribute to Ryan Feeney for that. I quote the words of the Ulster secretary, Danny Murphy, when he states that when a county plays, they represent all the people of the county. It reaches out a hand of friendship and this again has been shown by the opening up of Croke Park to other games, the removal of rule 21 and the invitation of the Queen to visit. While some of the Ulster counties were not represented, they also did not prevent the event from happening. To me, rugby has always represented itself as a sport for all the people of this island, reflecting an Irishness that could be also British and a Britishness that could be also Irish. I played rugby for Ireland during the worst of the Troubles. As a Unionist coming from a police family, myself and my father never experienced anything other than friendship. At that time, I often reflected that the dynamic at play on this island in respect of our constitutional question was such a pity. I reflected on how much better relations would be if things were different.

In more recent times, the IRFU has lacked the courage to make progress on inclusive symbols. It failed to play the national anthem of the UK when the Irish team played in Belfast before the 2007 Rugby World Cup. I should explain that when we play in Dublin, the anthem that is played is "A Soldier's Song". The reciprocal agreement that is supposed to be in place means "God Save the Queen" should be played when we play in Belfast. The IRFU failed to do that. It was a massive opportunity to show that Irish rugby represents all the people on the island. I think it is something we will work out eventually. The IRFU has lacked courage with regard to inclusive symbols. Perhaps agreed protocols on all-Ireland sport are needed. I can speak about this later if members wish. Such protocols would be good to ensure sport is as inclusive as possible.

People who love sport want others to enjoy their sport and to work together constructively through all the challenges they face. I challenge the FAI, which is actively encouraging young Nationalists and republicans in Northern Ireland to play for the Republic of Ireland, to stop alienating Northern Ireland football fans in such a manner. As my 17 year old son said to me without prompting, those involved do not seem to realise they are at risk of creating separate Catholic and Protestant teams on this island. Perhaps young Nationalists and republicans should understand that people from such backgrounds did more in the past to build relationships on this island by representing Northern Ireland than those who wrap themselves in their flags and songs can achieve.

Sport is a way of building relationships. Many organisations have been working for years on targeted action to achieve results. Paul Brown, who is a youth convener at Knock Presbyterian Church, has developed a coaching initiative, A Game of Three Halves, which has been adopted by the three main governing bodies as a template for creating opportunities for young people to experience rugby, football and Gaelic football in an inclusive environment. The "fourth half" of the initiative, which is about promoting better community relations, is delivered through Peace Players International, the motto of which is "children who play together can learn to live together".

The work of Peace Players International is targeted in areas where there has been significant conflict in the past. It provides an opportunity for those who want a different future - a shared one - to work together. Mr. Feeney and Mr. Wilson can talk about the opportunities it provides. When opportunities are created, people will take them. Leadership from head teachers in schools, teachers, parents and the community as a whole in those communities enables these kids to get to know each other better. Such examples can be found in Holycross and Wheatfield, and in St. Matthew's and Avoniel.

When we ran a game of three halves in north Belfast last summer, the three governing bodies participated and as a result, kids in north Belfast got to play these three sports. A parent said to me, "I do not want a relationship with those people; there is too much history". When I said I was disappointed to hear that, he said "but Trevor, I want my children to have one". This shows that many people are prepared to let go of what happened in the past to create something different.

I am also involved in the One Small Step campaign, which is run by a cross-community group that wants to promote a shared future in Northern Ireland, on this island and between these islands. There are three aspects to the campaign. First, it encourages everyone to take a small step to build a relationship or to break down a barrier. If everyone does something, cumulatively that will make a significant difference. Second, it challenges our leaders by saying they cannot practice politics and relationships as they have in the past while expecting to have a stable society. Some 24 of the 26 councils in Northern Ireland have signed up to support the campaign, which highlights the good work that goes on, much of which involves sport. There are many examples of that in Northern Ireland. Even though we do not often hear about such initiatives, they are happening on the ground.

We avoided a civil war in the recent past. Much credit for that goes to those at community level who built relationships while others were destroying them. If we are to tackle sectarianism, cultural racism and racism, it has to be seen as an imperative by the leaders in our society. We should not miss this opportunity, or take for granted what we have at present. Those interested in sport have an ability to move between different identities and allegiances at different times, when appropriate. We need to be prepared to do the right thing and show leadership that genuinely changes attitudes. Friendship works. As we look to the future, that should be the driving dynamic rather than the hatred, fear, victimhood, violence and conflict of the past. I thank the committee for giving me an opportunity to address it.

Mr. Robin Wilson

I thank the committee for its invitation. I will begin by making an apology. The invitation was rightly extended to Mr. Michael Boyd, who is the head of the communications department of the Irish Football Association. Unfortunately, he had a prior commitment he could not get out of. He asked me to convey his sincere apologies to the committee. Mr. Boyd is committed to this issue and would have liked to be here today. I am not in the employ of the IFA. I am an independent researcher. Nothing I say should be taken as an official statement on behalf of the IFA. Mr. Boyd asked me to speak to the committee because I have done a lot of work with the association and individual football clubs since 2005 in connection with the IFA's Football for All campaign. I have worked with the Football Association of Ireland since 2007 on its intercultural work. I have been involved with Football Against Racism in Europe, which is a Europe-wide non-governmental organisation that campaigns on these issues. I hope I have some independent expertise that I can bring to bear.

Why is football relevant to a discussion about the politics of ethnic division that takes the form of racism, sectarianism or other forms of intolerance? The answer to that question is essentially twofold. First, football is a global game that is played by universal rules. When we challenge ethnic division of various sorts, we do so in the name of universal norms of democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Those who espouse particular ideologies of racism, sectarianism, anti-Semitism and other forms of intolerance never accept those norms. In football, those principles are policed - at least in theory - by an impartial referee. Players are supposed to sign up to the idea of fair play. The game provides us with a kind of model of how a multi-ethnic society should operate. For example, players are selected on the basis of merit, rather than on the basis of skin colour or any other consideration. The second reason football is of interest in this context is that it has virtually no entry costs. It is just as possible to play football with a makeshift ball on a dirt track in Africa as it is for most kids in Ireland to do so. Therefore, people from socially marginalised backgrounds can contribute to the sport and, hopefully, get as much fulfilment from it as those from more elevated backgrounds.

Football and other sports have been used in Ireland as a positive vehicle in recent years. Mr. Ringland referred to the role of rugby and Mr. Feeney will speak about his sport. Football has been deployed in both jurisdictions to good and positive effect. The Irish Football Association launched its Football for All campaign in 2000. It employed Mr. Michael Boyd as its first community relations officer. He now heads a bigger department. The IFA did so because, as Mr. Ringland mentioned and members will be aware, there were some pretty visceral sectarian incidents in the 1990s. There was an awful atmosphere in Windsor Park when Northern Ireland played the Republic of Ireland in 1993. There were episodes of Northern Ireland fans booing Catholic members of the Northern Ireland team. The current Celtic manager, Neil Lennon, was subjected to death threats from loyalists.

The IFA decided to address an issue that lots of people in Northern Ireland had preferred to avoid. Its Football for All campaign initially focused on cleaning up the atmosphere at Windsor Park. As Mr. Ringland has said, that was done in partnership with football supporters in Northern Ireland who genuinely wanted to deal with the intolerance they found among them, from a minority of supporters, but were unable to address in any other organised way. The partnership that developed between the Irish Football Association and the Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs was the basis for the Football For All campaign. It has been very successful in the past decade in dramatically changing the atmosphere at Windsor Park from an occasionally sectarian bear garden to one of celebration and fun for anyone who wants to visit the stadium.

The two principal changes were the development of new chants - "We are not Brazil, we are Northern Ireland" being the most famous - to replace the old sectarian chants and changes to the appearance of the stadium. In the 1980s Windsor Park often looked like Ibrox with its colours of red, white and blue. The Irish Football Association and organised supporters encouraged fans to attend matches dressed in green and white colours and refer to themselves as the green and white army. The result was a change to the image of Northern Ireland football games, including for those who viewed them on television. While it remains the case that the Northern Ireland football team is mainly supported by Protestants, thankfully this no longer carries the same connotations as it once did, which is a major plus.

I evaluated the Football for All campaign on behalf of the Irish Football Association in 2005, the year my involvement with the IFA started. I discovered that the partnership worked very well. Organised fans and supporters of Northern Ireland now have to sign up to the Football for All vision if they want to be part of the official network of fan clubs which has grown significantly in the past decade. I recommended in my first evaluation that the IFA needed to ensure progress at Windsor Park was not just a bubble. As one fan put it to me, it needed to cascade down through football clubs in Northern Ireland to the grassroots. In fairness, the recommendation was adopted by the IFA in a number of ways. Last year, for example, after a decade of the campaign, it changed its logo, which now has the words "Football for All" inscribed in it. This was a significant statement of commitment to the Football for All campaign. It demonstrated that it was not a marginal, nice marketing idea but an ethical issue to which the IFA was dedicated.

Club licensing requirements for senior clubs in Northern Ireland have been progressively tightened to require them to do things they did not have to do before. Most notably, this season they are required to audit issues of intolerance and develop strategies to deal with them. With others, I have worked with senior clubs to meet this requirement and my work with the Irish Football Association in recent months and has been an interesting experience. I have also worked with a couple of great grassroots amateur clubs which are adopting the same approach. This initiative is cascading down to the grassroots, as are other initiatives that have been taken under the Football for All banner.

There has been considerable growth in female participation in football in Northern Ireland, with the number of registered women players increasing by 60% in the past decade. Moreover, the international women's football team does much better than its male counterpart. Disability football is treated seriously by the Irish Football Association and a large number of people are involved in disability football at youth and other levels. The IFA established the "World United" initiative a few years ago. This is a squad of migrants, refugees and some local players which spawned a women's World United counterpart established in the past year. These are all innovative and positive ways in which political philosophy, an area about which political scientists such as Mr. Feeney and I know a great deal, can be translated into practical initiatives on the ground.

As I am conscious of time, I will not discuss in detail the limitations of what is taking place, although we could discuss them in subsequent exchanges. I will, however, briefly address developments in the Football Association of Ireland. Individuals in senior positions in the association were probably more far-sighted than some members of the then Government when they recognised some years ago that a downturn could be on the way. In doing so they identified a risk that people could scapegoat members of minority communities should the Celtic tiger come to an end. In that context, the FAI secured some support from UEFA to develop an intercultural plan and employed an intercultural co-ordinator, Mr. Des Tomlinson. Like Mr. Michael Boyd in the IFA, Mr. Tomlinson does a great job in leading this work.

I was commissioned with a colleague to prepare the intercultural plan launched by Mr. Mick McGrath in 2007. Mr. Mullen will be well aware of the details from his involvement with the plan. It seeks to address relationships between the new Irish migrants, including refugees, and indigenous communities through football. As Mr. Mullen noted, a great deal of good work has been done among the senior clubs. The Show Racism the Red Card initiative has been leading the way in this regard, but good work is also being done at grassroots level by the FAI development officers and particular clubs which have made a determined effort to make themselves open and reach out to non-traditional players. In that sense, in both jurisdictions, one can see many positive ways in which football is being used to good effect to challenge intolerance and express in practical and concrete ways - in a manner that people who do not have PhD qualifications in politics can understand - that one really can embody a different type of society, one which is integrated and intercultural and in which everyone can feel he or she plays an equal part.

Mr. Ryan Feeney

It is a great privilege to appear before the joint committee. Deputies, Senators and MPs should not underestimate the important role the committee plays and how it is viewed in the Northern context. Mr. Wilson, Mr. Ringland, Mr. Mullen whom I met earlier today, Mr. Boyd and I travel this island together to try to highlight and promote the very important role sport plays in cohesive community relations and the very important impact it has economically and socially on the island. I do not believe the Governments, North or South, could calculate the value of the impact of sport or the level of positivity it brings to society, particularly in the very difficult times we face.

Trevor Ringland is a very good friend of mine and a man for whom I have great respect. He comes from a totally different background from me, being a proud Unionist, whereas I am a proud Nationalist and republican, but we discuss issues on an ongoing basis and respect each other's views. The underlying theme of everything we do through sport, whether rugby, the Irish Football Association or the Ulster GAA, is to try to bring a level of positivity and respect using the idea of a shared future.

In 1998 the Good Friday Agreement indicated that we could be British, Irish or both in the context of these islands. The first ever vote I cast was in 1998 when I voted for the Agreement. The GAA sticks to the letter of the law in this respect. We are Irish and respect the right of others to be British, Northern Irish or both. That very important cultural or, if one likes, political identity is at the very core of everything we do to build community relations.

I will briefly run through the presentation I have prepared, copies of which I have circulated to members. In 2007 the GAA took a conscious decision at Ulster level to reach out the hand of friendship to those who traditionally would not have had any involvement with our association. I note that I am in the presence of a famous leading county manager and a former county player, both of whom will know only too well the work we are doing at provincial level. For the first time, our strategic plan in 2007 included a section under the title "Community and Inclusion" with a very simple mission of extending the hand of friendship to anybody who wanted to extend a hand of friendship to us. The GAA is 98% Catholic, a fact we recognise and do not underestimate. We also accept there are members of the Unionist community on this island who have issues with and may, for genuine reasons, have suspicions of the Gaelic Athletic Association, Cumann Lúthchleas Gael. It is my job and that of the GAA, not only at Ulster level but also at central level, to educate and extend the hand of friendship to such individuals.

In 2009, at our annual congress, the rules of the association were changed to ensure we moved from taking a non-racist, non-sectarian, on-the-fence stance to adopting an anti-sectarian, anti-racist stance. This has consequences for how we do our business across the association. The director, Mr. Danny Murphy, and I were given the role of community outreach co-ordinators on behalf of the Ard Comhairle, the central council of the GAA, reporting directly to the Ard Stiúrthóir on all these issues. The latter leads on these issues at an Coiste Bainistí level.

The GAA is strictly non-party political, which has consequences for everything we do. For example, Croke Park may not host a party Ard-Fheis because of GAA rules on this issue. The slide on page 3 shows the work the GAA does at grassroots level. Clearly any sporting organisation can be put into that model. We have an important and positive role to play across our community. We are dealing with suicide prevention, which is a scourge in the community, in terms of community cohesion and community relations. The GAA recognises that as an organisation it has to reinvest in clubs in counties to ensure we sustain the important work taking place in community relations. That is the reason right across the island, 85% of our income goes directly back to clubs and counties. That is something of which we are proud.

We recognise that to get things right on the pitch we must get things right off the pitch. We put capacity and social programmes in place such as the Club Maith initiative. That initiative ensures that every member of the GAA in Ulster must go through a diversity process and be trained up in community relations before they can hold an officer post at club level.

In the past three years, more than 3,500 people have gone through that process. As an association at community level, we have made it clear that one extends the hand of friendship to those who are willing to extend it back. Anecdotally, I have seen that happen where we now have Church of Ireland and Presbyterian Church of Ireland ministers attending the opening of pitches alongside Catholic priests. I have seen boys brigades doing drills inGAA halls in rural areas. That is a shared feature, that is people working together.

We have also had to work with Unionist politicians at senior level. The relationship with these politicians, particularly the Ministers, who held the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure portfolio was mostly positive. Edwin Poots, the first Minister from a rural background, like my chief executive, had a very positive and respectful relationship with us. That filtered all the way through to Nelson McCausland, the previous Minister, before Karl McCallum. We worked with them to try to educate people on what the GAA is about. Rightly or wrongly there may be times where they would have challenged us on some of the things we did as an organisation. We were never behind the door in accepting that challenge but were also not behind the door in standing up for ourselves.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA, may correct me on this issue - the GAA now has a stronger position in the North than it has ever had before. While it may not have people's respect they certainly understand us better. Perhaps we are still facing issues. Recently in the week when the Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, called the GAA the big society in action, we had a situation where young girls aged 12 and 14 were packing bags in a local supermarket. An elected representative who holds a mandate that I respect, churlishly criticised these young women for packing bags to try to raise money for their voluntary sporting organisation. That is the issue we still face in society and particularly in the North.

The Cúchulainn project is a project of which we are proud and have rolled out with the support of Ard Comhairle and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in the past four years. It gives young people from the controlled education sector the opportunity to play Gaelic games - hurling and football. At present, we have more than 500 young people from the controlled education sector who have no GAA background whatsoever engaging in our games. We also give their teachers and their boards of governors an opportunity to see what the GAA does first hand and give a presentation to them on the association. We link this very strongly with the shinty model. As the committee we have east-west relations which are vitally important and a very important strand of the Good Friday Agreement in which we all have to engage. We deal with the Scottish Shinty Association, Comann Camanachd, and work with it for the purpose of joint shinty-hurling matches. The Ulster Scots Agency in the North is also involved in this and it was something the previous Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure strongly endorsed.

We have had four teams, Belfast, Armagh, Enniskillen and Limavaddy who have been taken to America to participate in intercontinental GAA youth games which are held across the US on an annual basis. These teams have two schools from the maintained sector and two from the controlled sector - five boys from each school. Many of these children come from deprived backgrounds and have never left the country previously. We give them an opportunity to spend ten days in America, to engage with the association there and they are extremely well received. I am proud to say that the Belfast Cúchulains won the under 14 section of the intercontinental youth games the first year we took part. The joint captains, a pupil from St. Patrick's College, Bearnageeha, north Belfast, and a pupil from Ashfield boys' school lifted the cup together and it was presented by the then president, uachtarán Nicky Brennan.

Since then we have had a range of schools that participate outside the Cúchulain trip in the Cúchulainn Cup which is a one-day event held in Cookstown every year. I am proud to say the winning team was Enniskillen this year. A young guy from Portora college, Enniskillen, which is not a traditional GAA school, was presented with the cup by uachtarán Uladh, Aogán Ó Fearghail.

Mr. Robin Wilson and Mr. Trevor Ringland mentioned the game of three halves, a fantastic initiative, which has been rolled out across the three sporting bodies. As Mr. Ringland has done I pay tribute to Mr. Paul Brown, the director of youth ministry at North Presbyterian Church, who initiated this process which runs in east Belfast. More than 90 children participate over a week in sport. We deliberately hold this event during the marching season or during the summer when the position can be difficult in the North. It is a tribute to Mr. Paul Brown and others that this project gives young people an involvement in sport, promotes the idea of a shared future, gets them exposed to different cultures and brings sport into urban areas where, sometimes, we suffer due to lack of facilities and support.

There are many schools, including Victoria College, which have a camogie and ladies Gaelic football team with our support that would never have these teams previously. That is the work we are doing and the idea we are trying to promote. It is all done on the simple basis of respect.

Ulster Rugby, the IFA and ourselves also engage in the Unite Against Hate Programme which took a very strong and strict line on hate crime, not just in terms of sectarianism but homophobia, racism and non-nationals in our country. The PSNI, the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister and a range of other statutory bodies engaged in this process which had cross-party support in the Northern Ireland Assembly. We were delighted to play a leading role with our partner organisations. The relationship between the IFA , Ulster Rugby and the GAA has never been stronger than at present.

We have a strong relationship with the PSNI and, perhaps, one day someone will get the opportunity to do some research into that. It is a relationship where we challenge each other but it is built on respect and engagement. Recently we had the PSNI and the Garda Síochána play their historic match for the Thomas St. George McCarthy Cup in Croke Park. It was clear from the result that day that the Garda Síochána was training more than the PSNI team but perhaps that is something that I and others can help address.

There is a lot done, and a lot more to do, particularly in our work in the Ulster council. Each year we have a non-traditional GAA spokesperson at our community conference. We are grateful to Mr. Trevor Ringland who undertook that role last year, also the Minister Edwin Poots and, more recently, Rev. Norman Hamilton, the former moderator of the Presbyterian Church of Ireland. I do not wish to be emotional about this but certainly Rev. Hamilton and the Presbyterian Church have been strong friends of the GAA. I thank them for the important and strong role they played with our organisation during the tragic death of Michaela McAreavey.

We have strict rules on sectarian and racist activity which are strongly enforced. We have taken 500 community leaders to All-Ireland finals and semi-finals in Croke Park. This includes elected politicians, former loyalist paramilitaries and people with strong Unionist backgrounds. We do not do any publicity on this issue. Uachtarán náisiúnta hosts them for the day. We give them a presentation on our work and they enjoy the match. We have almost full backing from the membership of Ulster for the work we are doing and from the membership of the GAA across the island. On 12 November I gave a presentation to Ard Comhairle and it endorsed the work we are doing. Last year, 90% of the delegates at the 2010 Ulster GAA conference voted to continue the community outreach and inclusion programme.

We are not resting on our laurels. There are still many issues that need to be dealt with in the North. Sectarianism is growing stronger in our urban and rural areas every day.

On page 12 of my presentation there are two final slides I wish to highlight. The first is the children of the most important place in the world to me, my place, Faughanvale, County Derry. In our area there is a place called Greysteel which is the centre urban area. In 1993, the year my county won the all-Ireland final, two gunmen went into our local bar and murdered eight people in cold blood. After that the scars remained in our community. They were members of loyalist paramilitary organisations. At the time, my next door neighbour, Mr. Colm Murray, whom I greatly admire, called for peace, not revenge. He did not ask for anyone's life to be taken in the name of his father who, in his 80th year, was gunned down. He asked for peace because he did not want anyone else to suffer what he suffered.

The community from which I come is very mixed, a staunch Republican community on one side and a strong Unionist community on the other but we share the community in which we live and the sports we play. The people in that slide are the most important people to me. That is why we are here today and the reason we do this work. It was indicated earlier that this is all about the next generation and building up their sense of pride and sense of place. In Derry City, there is a statue Pat Doherty, I and others know well. It was done by a great sculptor, Maurice Harron, and is about leadership and respect, the two facets of everything on which the community relationship between the GAA and the other sporting organisations are based. We live in austere times and there is a lot of negativity in the community but I believe, as with our visits earlier this year, that "Yes we can". We can achieve a very cohesive community, can show each other respect and can respect each other's differences culturally.

In 1980, a great Irishman, Ted Kennedy, ran for President of the US and failed. He stood up at the Democratic convention and gave a speech that we in the Ulster council have kidnapped and which is something we use to highlight how we do our work within community relations and diversity. He said simply, "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die." That is how we all should move forward in partnership as we build a shared future on this island. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Chairman

We will now take comments from members, a number of whom have signalled they would like to ask questions.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly

I welcome our four guests. I am not being patronising when I say that the value of the work they do within their organisations and co-operatively cannot be underestimated. The good they do will never be fully quantified because the harm that would ensue were it not for what they do will not be seen. We cannot overestimate the work being done, not alone the stand-alone work, but particularly the cross-community work.

Sport, by definition, should be unifying, classless and non-sectarian. It is a distortion of sport when this is not the case, but sadly this does happen. Sport has enormous potential. The town of Ballyjamesduff in Cavan is an example of this. It is not strictly a Border town, but it is close to the Border. Due to the fact the town has a large meat-processing factory, there is significant ethnic diversity in the town, remarkably so for a small town. In order to achieve integration, the local community council and leadership, including a colleague of mine, Councillor Paddy Smith, came together and developed a soccer league in the town involving all the estates, with an ethnic mix on each team. This was an enormous success and a catalyst in breaking down barriers and is a model that merits consideration and emulation.

I was disturbed to hear Mr. Feeney say - he is not the first to say it - that sectarianism is growing. What he said is consistent with other presentations we have had. This is disturbing because if it continues to grow, it will become the engine for further problems. Whatever can be done to end sectarianism must be done because it forms a dangerous cocktail. Our guests have addressed many of the issues about which I might have had questions, but what further steps do they think can be taken to end sectarianism? What is lacking in regard to this significant issue? The initiatives mentioned by our guests seem very good and have had a commendable effect, but it is disturbing there is residual sectarianism. While there has been some change lately south of the Border - I understand it is not much different North of it - the lack of involvement in the GAA, despite the rule change, by Protestant communities is disturbing. I would be interested to hear Mr. Feeney comment on what steps are being taken to overcome that and what progress there has been in that regard. There is a perception that soccer is for one religious grouping and Gaelic football for the other. It is critical to overcome this from both sides.

I am delighted our guests are here. It is extremely important we do everything possible to root out sectarianism wherever we can.

Chairman

We will take some more questions before we revert to our guests.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome the delegates and am delighted we can talk about the various issues by way of sport. I come from a different community, from Boyle in Roscommon. On a Saturday I could go to Dublin to a rugby match and I remember Mr. Ringland playing and scoring many tries for us. On Sunday we would play soccer and on Sunday afternoons we would play Gaelic. The only conflict between Gaelic and soccer in our area was that the best players were required to play the two games. We came from a very different background and did not fully realise the issues.

On the night in question in November, we were perhaps naive. We certainly did not fully understand the complexities. We felt going up that the Republic of Ireland was going to the World Cup and almost felt a favour could be done. I think that night brought home to us that there were significant fundamental problems and I am delighted it was a catalyst for change. Was there much resistance to that change? The IFA and the Northern Ireland football team have brought about an obvious festive atmosphere which has helped ensure we are not as concerned about conflict arising. What did the opening up of Croke Park achieve? Was it a significant symbolic gesture? To me it made sense, but what did it mean for the delegation's work?

It has always been an almost non-declared rule that people from a Nationalist background could play for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. Has the FAI stance been unhelpful with regard to it going public on this? I was at the Northern Ireland versus the Republic of Ireland football match in the Aviva Stadium a few months ago and I noticed a banner which more or less stated that the Northern Ireland supporters were not happy about this. Is there a better way to approach this issue? I feel the FAI may have been a bit too upfront on that.

On the question of understanding, the proposed building of the joint stadium has obviously been shelved. The two stadia, Windsor Park and Casement Park, are within a quarter of a mile of one another. Is there any compromise solution proposed in that regard?

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank our guests for their interesting contributions. I think what people appreciate from sports people is honesty. Jason Sherlock was my favourite Dublin player because he was a very honest player, and even though I am not really a rugby fan, it is also why Brian O'Driscoll is a favourite of mine. I am trying to think of an honest soccer player. Kevin Kilbane was mentioned earlier and he was a very honest player. Fans always respond to honesty so we have to be honest in what we say.

I was at the integration centre's pre-budget launch a couple of weeks ago and Fintan O'Toole was saying that we in the South have a terrible history of being completely unable to deal with difference, and that we have a history of incarcerating people who are different that is worse than any other state in the world. That legacy remains today. I grew up in a house in Dublin where rugby was a game played by people who went to private schools. My father taught in a school which famously expelled Liam Brady for playing soccer. I go to GAA matches a lot and I hear some of the pretty poisonous things said about some of the very small minority of ethnic players who play in Croke Park and a level of homophobia which is absolutely outrageous. We have a problem and it is not just a Northern Irish thing. We have a problem across the island with difference and with embracing it.

The strides that have been made by the IFA are remarkable. I have never been to Windsor Park. I would appreciate an invitation and we would all like to go to a game at some point and see it at first hand. The atmosphere has changed completely from what I can see on the TV screen.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly

That is a good suggestion.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Yes it is a good suggestion. Mr. Ringland mentioned earlier that there is a potential for having two soccer teams on this island which would almost be exclusively from one religious background or the other. I would defend the right of somebody whose particular personal identity fits in more with the Republic of Ireland team than with Northern Ireland to choose the former. However, if this is being manipulated by a particular association, that has to be rooted out and challenged.

My view of the Celtic and Rangers issue is that there are two very well resourced soccer teams in Scotland that benefit commercially from sectarianism. We even had a sports manufacturer promoting a jersey of one of those teams and its tag line was "Identify Yourself". That is making money out of sectarianism. I wonder if both sides in Glasgow deliberately target Irish players in order to promote their idea of being representative of one side or the other. Racism and sectarianism makes money for people. We have to be aware of that.

Emblems and anthems were mentioned before, along with the problem of racism, sectarianism and political identity. It is impossible to divorce politics from sport. I wish we could, but we cannot, because once a person represents a place with some kind of border around it, then that is a political thing. How do we address the issue of anthems and emblems in a way that empowers people and brings them along with us? I go to many games in Ulster. My wife is from Monaghan, God love her. It is not an easy team to support, but we go to many county grounds in the North of Ireland and the anthem is played, and I find myself, as a Dublin person, wondering how embracing this is. Then again, Mr. Ringland made the point about the anthem of the Irish rugby team, and there is a similar problem with the Irish Football Association. Gerry Armstrong made reference to that recently, when he stated it is not necessarily as embracing to those of a Nationalist background when only one anthem is played. How important is that, or is it a red herring? Are there more fundamental problems that we need to deal with?

I appreciate the presentations made and I want to thank Mr. Mullen for the work he does on eliminating racism. Everybody probably knows at this stage, because I say it often enough, that I taught in a disadvantaged area in the north inner city of Dublin. The problem I discovered is that if somebody is discriminated against every day of his or her life, as a working class person, then discrimination towards somebody else comes almost naturally, because there is a perception that somebody else is scrambling around for scarce resources. It is about empowerment and education. It is often more about fear of poverty than it is about instinctive racism.

Chairman

Thank you, Deputy. We will have three batches of questions, so not all witnesses have to address the questions already raised. They can come in on another two occasions to give answers, but perhaps some of them can come in now.

Mr. Robin Wilson

I must make another apology. I was referring to the former Aston Villa and Irish international star, Paul McGrath, and not the fictional character from the Irish Rover, Mick McGrath.

I am coming here as a representative of the Irish Football Association, but now I will put on my political scientist's hat and answer the question on why sectarianism is increasing. The answer is something that is hard for us all to face up to. I did work for the Council of Europe a few years ago on a White Paper on intercultural dialogue, which the member state foreign ministers launched in 2008. There are basically three ways we can deal with diversity in a multi-ethnic society. The first is assimilation, where members of a minority community assimilate to a dominant ethos, which they obviously find objectionable. The second is multiculturalism, where we assume there are discrete cultures which belong to different communities and each of them is stereotyped and single. This has led in many places, particularly in Britain and the Netherlands, with their colonial backgrounds, to mutual incomprehension and ghettoisation. The third way is that which has been emerging in the last decade and is known as interculturalism. It was the basis for this White Paper in 2008, which was designated by the European Union as the year of intercultural dialogue. Interculturalism puts much more emphasis on individuals being free to make a choice of identity, accepting they have complex identities and letting them develop relationships with each other. The problem in this context is that the Good Friday Agreement is about multiculturalism in an interculturalist world. Unfortunately, that is why the consequence in the long run has been the institutionalisation of sectarianism, rather than reconciliation. This is my opinion as an individual, rather than that of the IFA.

The next thing I am going to say about football is also not from the IFA. My personal belief is in an all-Ireland football team. That is the background to what I am about to say about the eligibility issue. My personal belief on this issue is that the FAI has made a mistake in its approach to the eligibility issue. I perfectly agree with the phraseology in the Good Friday Agreement that one can choose to be Irish or British, or both. As it happens, I have an Irish passport. What is happening in the North is that individuals who are playing for Northern Ireland at junior level get onto the FAI's radar and are then being poached to play for Ireland, following investment in them in Northern Ireland. That is what causes the frustration, over and above people who are just motivated by sectarianism. If there was a willingness on the part of both associations to agree to it, then the obvious solution is to say that if a young person chooses to play for Northern Ireland at junior level, then that is the choice made and the FAI will back off and not try to recruit him to play for Ireland. The decision will be made at an earlier stage and that is the decision. That does not prevent people playing for Ireland; it just means that if they play at a junior level for Northern Ireland, they should stick with Northern Ireland. I think that is the answer to the eligibility problem.

In 2005, I did an evaluation of Football for All. I am a recovering journalist, so I thought I knew a lot about the media. I was faced with an absolutely wall-to-wall barrage of media attention for that report. Over 24 recommendations were made, one of which was to drop the national anthem for Northern Ireland games. That was the only recommendation that anybody in the media wanted to talk about. Having said that, after the storm abated, people in the IFA started to talk privately about the issue. I had recommended that in the context of the move to the new stadium, this would be the time to make the change. It could be presented, if we wanted to do so, as something similar to Scotland and Wales, who play their own anthems at international football matches. Unfortunately, when devolution was restored, it was not possible to get agreement on a stadium at the Maze, even though the IFA, the IRFU and the GAA had all agreed on it. It was not possible to get the main parties in the Executive to agree to how it would operate, so that opportunity has been lost.

There are technical issues with a new stadium from a participants' point of view, due to the size of the pitches and so on, and I perfectly respect these. It does create a problem because the two big issues which deter Catholics from playing for Northern Ireland are the anthem and Windsor Park. There has been a lot of change in Linfield in recent years but the association with it and the fact that the area, which is called the Village, has strong Protestant connotations carries all sorts of baggage. It is unfair to other teams in the premiership in Northern Ireland because there is a hidden subsidy for Linfield as it is used for international games. In an ideal world we would have a different place to play Northern Ireland internationals and would not play the British national anthem or the option of playing something else would be pursued.

On the investment in Celtic and Rangers, ironically they both have the same drinks company on their shirts. As has been the case in Northern Ireland there are people who profit, politically and otherwise, from various ethnic divisions. Yugoslavia is a perfect example. There are people in Celtic and Rangers who seem to be in denial about the problems the clubs have to face. It may come down to UEFA being as tough on them as it currently is on Serbia which has been threatened with expulsion because of problems with nationalism and violence. It will probably take intervention from outside for the situation to be fundamentally changed

Mr. Trevor Ringland

I will deal with some of the points raised. On Celtic and Rangers, I sometimes feel the promotion of the cross-country work they do with the "Old Firm" alliance is like tobacco companies sponsoring cancer research. If there were two football teams Northern Ireland could do without it is Celtic and Rangers. It might not be a popular view.

If one got a group of children to play Celtic against Rangers and at half-time asked them to play Manchester United against the rest one would see a cross-over. That is the beauty of sport. It enables one to have different identities at different times, to be able to compete without destroying relationships and hate without actually hating.

People asked what could be done, something I tried to allude to in my comments. The quote "attitude reflects leadership" is from the film "Remember the Titans." It is a good film and every child should see it. It is about doing the right thing and leadership. The committee is hearing about leadership at a community level among sporting organisations.

Leadership at the very top needs to face up to the sectarian problems, cultural racism and racism in our society. That will impact on the attitudes people have. The work we are all involved in works and makes a difference. We have had it independently assessed and the assessment showed the work has an impact.

Incremental change is another issue. It involves taking small steps. Time and again I see people gradually build relationships and break down barriers as they gain confidence and trust. That is how sectarianism and racism will be challenged.

I was at the match in November and decided not to go back again. I would normally stay involved and a friend told me I should stay involved and change things rather than leave. He was absolutely right and I was wrong. I went back to the Sports Council of Northern Ireland a number of years later knowing it had appointed Mr. Michael Boyd and was involved in tackling sectarianism. It was fantastic to see the achievement. It shows that where leadership is given sectarianism and racism can be tackled.

On Northern Ireland versus the Republic of Ireland in football, I would love to turn it into an Ulster and Munster or Leinster and Munster game with 40,000 or 50,000 people attending. I would also love it to be done for purposes such as sponsoring cross-community activities across the island or other charitable purposes. It would create another basis for the game and allow us to enjoy the North-South rivalry and the rivalry we have when an Irish rugby team takes on England, Wales or Scotland.

The other paper I submitted to the committee outlined that people from Northern Ireland will be competing in the Olympics because of the structure of Olympic sports, which is fine. Mr. Paddy Barnes and rowers will compete. Others will compete for Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The key thing for Mr. Barnes and others is that when they can compete for Northern Ireland they do so. They can move between different identities.

I find the FAI stance unhelpful. I am more concerned than Mr. Wilson. It is an awful pity that people do not want to play for Northern Ireland, especially when all the work has been done. It is a challenge the IFA is up for. It will continue to work on it and reach out. I am disappointed when the FAI does not recognise the consequences of a very small gain. It undermines a lot of the work that is going on.

I am on the record as supporting the stadium but Mr. Feeney and I disagree. A Gaelic pitch is too big for football and rugby. In Northern Ireland we are developing Ravenhill for rugby, Windsor Park for football and Casement Park for GAA. If there is a big football game on I would like to see it played in Casement Park which holds 35,000 people. It is even more important that facilities are shared in towns and villages around the country, which would have a real impact and people would get to know each other.

When I played rugby for Ireland we stood for "A Soldier's Song" out of respect and the deal was, as I understood, that when we played in Belfast, which happened in the 1940s and early 1950s, we stood for "God Save the Queen." I gave that example to councils in terms of how Irishness can accommodate Britishness and vice versa. It would take a two-year course to explain to somebody from west Cork playing for the current Irish team why he or she should stand for “God Save the Queen” in Belfast because of the history involved, which I totally understand.

A gesture should have been made in terms of offering to play the anthem. Northern Ireland football fans would do the country a big favour if they came up with a new song for Northern Ireland. We could enjoy "A Soldiers Song" being played for an Irish team in Dublin and a song played for the Northern Ireland team in Belfast. "Ireland's Call" could represent everyone.

It would be nice to see the Northern Ireland flag flown at the Aviva Stadium as well as the tricolour. Northern Ireland exists. There is all sorts of history but it will probably continue to exist for a considerable period of time. It might be overcome by Mr. Feeney offering me tickets for Northern Ireland finals on a regular basis over the next 20 or 30 years, as well as a meal and as much as I can drink. I will offer him tickets for various matches as we battle. Both of us are committed to an inclusive concept in terms of what we are doing, which is the key. We want a relationship and friendship.

From the Unionist side, one thing which annoys me is the continued reference to the North of Ireland, the Six Counties and different names. A friend of mine turned 50 and we stood her in her kitchen and asked her say the words "I am 50" which took about half an hour. She then relaxed and enjoyed the rest of the night even though she had not told anyone this was her 50th birthday. Relationships are there to be built. The spectrum of sport shows an ability to enjoy relationships. We should not waste the opportunity, as Mr. Feeney said.

Mr. Ryan Feeney

On the issue of the inclusion in the GAA of Protestants south of the Border, we have a national integration officer, Mr. Tony Watene, who is currently doing a lot of work in this area. I completely accept the comments made by Deputy O'Reilly that work needs to be done in terms of outreach to those in the State who still feel slightly excluded by the GAA.

In terms of what can be done, I do not want to sound like a Northerner asking for money but the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has a strong reconciliation fund. We know we are in austere times and both budget announcements were made at the start of the week. We want the reconciliation fund to continue because of the amount of work that is being done and areas which it funds across the community are very important. If this committee has any leverage with the Tánaiste I would appreciate it if they could use it. The Government provided funding for Croke Park but it was minimal compared to what the GAA put into it. In my view, if one costs what the GAA has given to the economy from Croke Park in employment, we are owed money from the Government. It would have been churlish and small-minded of us not to have shared our stadium with rugby and soccer. There were those in the GAA who were against it. With one exception I cannot think of anybody who was against it for sectarian reasons but rather they were more against it from the point of view of marketing because they wanted to ensure it could compete against rugby and the FAI. However, the decision was made democratically and it was the right decision. I stand by it and it would have been wrong for the GAA not to have done it.

I was involved in the process leading up to the development of a shared stadium. Trevor Ringland and I disagree on this point but only as regards the technical side of things. We could have had a shared stadium at the Maze-Long Kesh site which would have represented all the sporting cultures in Ulster. It was a project we could have been proud of and a place which could have been shared by all. It was supported by Edwin Poots, the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure, the IFA, the GAA and Ulster Rugby. My view is that most of the political parties were in favour of it. However, when Edwin Poots left the ministry, the project failed and I will allow the committee draw its own conclusions.

Chairman

A number of speakers wish to contribute. I am conscious of the time as some of our panel must leave soon. I propose taking the remainder of questions now and then return to the panel.

Senator Jim D’Arcy

I will be brief. It was an Ulsterman, Con Short, who proposed the abolition of the ban, rule No. 27. When I was growing up my father took us to both Dalymount Park and Windsor Park. I was there when England played Northern Ireland for the first game after England had won the World Cup. They won two nil. I was talking to Mervyn Gibson last week and I told him I was at the Benfica-Glentoran match. He said that if I told his people this that it would break down more barriers than all the committees or meetings or funding.

I refer to the playing of the anthem at Windsor Park. Another barrier to interculturalism has been seen in England. This is the practice of making it compulsory for players to wear the November poppy. I have great respect for the poppy because my mother used to make them for us at home when we were little children. However, it was being used as a political symbol rather than a remembrance of those lost in wars, with the Prime Minister and Prince William demanding from FIFA the right to wear this symbol on the jerseys. If the symbol of the poppy is permitted and expected what will be the situation with all the other symbols? This could spread and could become a problem. There are two very big estates in Dundalk, Muirhevna Mór and Cox's Demesne and they kill each other all week but they come to Dundalk matches on a Sunday and they sing together. I am worried about the spread of this use of the poppy.

Deputy Martin Ferris

I thank all the delegates for their presentations which were excellent. I come from Kerry, from outside Tralee. Sport was a very important factor in reconciliation in Kerry in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. I refer to a book In the Name of the Game, by JJ Barrett. His father was interned from 1922 to 1924, along with John Joe Sheehy, both famous names in Kerry football. There had been terrible atrocities committed during the Civil War and serious divisions in the county with neighbours set against each other and families divided. However, on his release, John Joe Sheehy made contact with Con Brosnan who was a Free State Army officer during the Civil War. The outcome of that meeting was people coming together. Many of the team were ex-internees. That Kerry team went on to win five All-Ireland titles, four in a row from 1929 to 1932 and the 1925 All-Ireland. The team became the catalyst for reconciliation in the county. The role of sport in the process of reconciliation and in challenging sectarianism and racism is fantastic and it can be used and exploited for the benefit of society and for our communities.

I also had the privilege of playing the three sports. The GAA has always been my first sport but I played soccer and I played rugby for a period of time but, where I live, rugby is regarded as being the sport of a certain class and when the boys came home from Rockwell College, the local boys would stop playing it. It was not an inclusive sport, to be honest. It is when one finishes playing competitive sport that one realises the value of the friendships forged through sporting organisations between people from different parts of the county or the country. This connection contributes to our own self-development.

Some of the points made in the presentations are very striking such as the attributes of leadership, strength and respect. This can be political or community leadership and the challenging of wrongs in communities and in society. Respect can mean respecting our differences and respect for the other point of view. One of the most striking aspects in my lifetime was in the aftermath of the killing of Ronan Kerr in Omagh. The GAA in Tyrone and nationally, flanked his coffin and this gave great leadership. It was a statement to the people from the other communities about the role of the GAA in bringing about reconciliation. I note also the political leadership shown by Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness which had a very important effect.

It was stated in a presentation that sectarianism was on the increase in large urban areas. If this is the case, how can sporting organisations deal with it? It is a worrying development. I refer to the role of integration in schools and in sporting bodies to take sectarianism out of communities and to build a tolerance and respect for each other. I ask the delegation to address those questions. I commend the work of the sporting organisations which is invaluable for the next and subsequent generations.

Chairman

Three speakers are offering but we must be finished in six minutes as the room is required by another committee. I suggest the remaining members ask their questions and they can be answered during lunch. If all of the issues are not addressed over lunch, the delegates might communicate with us through correspondence which we will deal with at the next meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed. I ask the three remaining speakers to be as brief as possible.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the delegates for the invitation to the committee and compliment them on their presentations and on their leadership in the various organisations. They are playing an important role in using sport as a vehicle to unite rather than divide. I have personal experience and knowledge of the GAA more so than any other sport. Through that I have an idea of the steps the delegates have taken and the length they have come in overcoming sectarianism and discrimination. All sporting organisations have had to confront these problems. I recall Mr. Ringland scoring tries on the right wing for Ireland. I was not aware of his politics at the time and I have no less admiration for those tries now that I am aware of his background. No Irish supporter would feel otherwise.

I have trained and managed players who are non-Catholics. I have had people in my back room teams who are of an entirely different persuasion politically, by which I do not refer to party politics. The only concern in all instances was the jersey for which each person was playing or working. The former President, Mary McAleese, has been praised in this committee for the great work she did behind the scenes to combat sectarianism. I have no doubt that her and her husband's involvement in sport assisted her in exploring that work and facilitated the tremendous progress made in that regard.

In regard to the so-called poaching of players by the FAI from the IFA, it would be a pity if this led in any way to a heightening of tensions between the two communities in the North. Is it exclusively players from a Nationalist or Catholic background who are transferring? The Republic of Ireland team that will play in the European Championship next year is not a Catholic team as such. I would support calls for that transfer facility to be at least paused if it is a genuine source of sectarian tensions between the respective footballing organisations.

In regard to the proposals for a shared pitch, the opening up of Croke Park to other sporting codes was a tremendous development. However, a mistake was made in regard to the usage of facilities in that the Aviva Stadium should have been developed for Gaelic games as well. I agree with Mr. Ringland that Gaelic matches with 30,000 attendees, for example, should be played in the Aviva Stadium, while Ireland versus England games in rugby, which attract 80,000 plus every time they are played in Ireland, should take place in Croke Park. The failure to make such arrangements was a huge mistake.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

I thank Mr. Wilson, Mr. Mullen, Mr. Ringland and Mr. Feeney for their submissions. It is said that politics and religion are a dangerous mixture. When one adds sport to the mix, it becomes even more dangerous. However, we are all in this room because we collectively are concerned with the implementation of this aspect of the Good Friday Agreement. Given our collective commitment in this regard, we should challenge each other respectfully on attitudes as we see them and seek to address those attitudes in an inclusive way.

I was not at the famous November 1993 game to which reference was made but I was in the car with Martin McGuinness, on our way to and from various meetings, and we listened to it on the radio. When I arrived at the carpark where Mr. McGuinness was dropping me off, the game was not yet over. As he was going out the gate he rolled down the car window and shouted back to me that McLoughlin had just scored. The famous play by Dan Gordon, "A Night in November", should be seen by anybody who wishes to explore the attitudes that were highlighted in that game.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin referred to the rivalry between Glasgow Celtic and Glasgow Rangers football clubs. I was born and grew up in Glasgow and am acutely aware of that rivalry. I hate sectarianism. Other than watching Lionel Messi and George Best on the television, the best individual player I ever saw play live was Jim Baxter of Rangers. As genuine as is my hatred of sectarianism, Deputy Ó Ríordáin is being a little harsh on both clubs in claiming they promote it. I do not accept that is the case; rather, they are living with the reality of it, just as we are in the North. Sectarianism is rife in the North, and we must be honest with each other about that reality if we are to seek to challenge it. I am trying to challenge it.

Mr. Mullen referred to the Irish question. It is not about the Irish question but about the British question in Ireland. That must be examined. Mr. Ringland spoke about consent as if consent were merely to do with the referendum in which we will vote on whether or not we want to be part of a united Ireland. Consent is a much wider concept than the Good Friday Agreement. What we consented to in the Agreement included a huge dimension on equality, a huge dimension on power-sharing and a huge all-Ireland dimension. It includes an agreement that we will potentially have a referendum at some stage.

In regard to Mr. Wilson and Mr. Feeney and the Football for All campaign, one can physically see this concept of the green and white taking hold, but it is very late in the day. The question is why it took so long for both the GAA and soccer to challenge attitudes in both codes. That is what the discussion should focus on. I appreciate the huge work that is being done, but it has taken a long time to challenge these issues. It has also taken politicians a long time to do so - and the delegates have every right to point that out - but at least we have made a start in the outworking of the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement. It is society generally, working together and putting up challenges to each other respectfully, which will find a way forward.

I look forward to discussing these issues further over lunch.

Deputy Seán Crowe

We are all familiar with the expression, "I am not racist, but....". We would need the whole day to discuss what exactly people mean by that term. We have heard many inspiring stories from the delegates today. Mr. Ringland referred to a person commenting, "I do not want to have a relationship with those people but I want my children to". I have heard that sentiment expressed on numerous occasions by people who have been hurt. The hope for the future is in that sentence.

Chairman

Well said, Deputy. Senator Mary White has indicated. I ask her to be very brief as we must vacate the meeting room.

Senator Mary M. White

I agree with colleagues that we have had very moving presentations from the four delegates. I congratulate Mr. Ringland on his One Small Step initiative. I am familiar with his work from my involvement as an observer on the Garvaghy Road for many years. His leadership was in contrast to that of Big Davey, whose purpose seemed to be to cause trouble rather than to bring people together, as Mr. Ringland did.

Mr. Feeney made an outstanding presentation. I have a question in regard to the Northern Ireland counties or the Six Counties. Depending on whose company we are in, we tend to use different names when referring to the Six Counties. I was surprised that the terms "North" and "South" were introduced into the equation in the Good Friday Agreement. This is just my honest opinion. On a visit to London approximately 20 years ago I challenged Edward Heath for referring to the Republic of Ireland as "the South". We need to move on. Will Mr. Feeney indicate the number of people from the other community who are members of county teams from the Six Counties?

Chairman

I thank the Senator for her question. If it is acceptable to everyone, we will deal with it during lunch.

Senator Mary M. White

I am travelling to Donegal and I will not be present at lunch.

Chairman

I will ensure that the Senator receives a reply to her question.

Mr. Robin Wilson

I will write to the Senator.

Chairman

Excellent. I thank our guests for attending. Theirs was an enjoyable and interesting presentation. We all learned a great deal, which is extremely positive. We can talk further over lunch. If our guests are of the view that some questions were not answered in full, perhaps they could communicate with us in writing and I will include their replies with the correspondence for our next meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 2 p.m. sine die.