Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 5 Sep 1973

Formation of Sub-Committees.

Chairman

The next item deals with the formation of sub-committees. I want to circulate the suggested structure to you. The steering committee which you appointed have looked at this matter and made some suggestions. Since my colleagues and I in the steering committee met, the clerk has had a word with the people in Foreign Affairs who were very helpful about this, and it is on their advice and on the basis of their knowledge of the situation that this sub-committee structure is suggested. First of all, Senator Robinson was very keen that we should, as one aspect of our work is very clear-cut, have a sub-committee to consider Irish ministerial regulations made under the European Communities Act and also any other instruments which are made under our domestic law which have a bearing on EC matters. As those two sets of instruments are very separate and distinct and as we have a very specific commitment and statutory obligation in regard to them, it is considered we should have a sub-committee for that aspect alone. That is what we call sub-committee A. It would deal exclusively with our own regulations and our own instruments; in other words, deal with matters under paragraphs (iii) and (iv) of our terms of reference.

I think it is quite clear that we must have a separate committee for agricultural matters, and the suggestion is that sub-committee B would deal with agriculture, fisheries and lands; that sub-committee C would deal with the other principal departments, financial, industrial, legal, scientific, educational and related matters, with specific reference to the Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Justice and Education. Sub-committee D—and this is where the advice of the Department of Foreign Affairs was most relevant—would consider political matters and second stage European policies, that is, regional policy, social policy, environmental policy, transport policy and miscellaneous matters. It can be seen, therefore, that what the Department of Foreign Affairs suggest is in line with what a number of Members have been saying in regard to looking at policy documents and their implications.

Deputy B. Desmond

I think it is fair to say that the view of the steering committee was that the function of the sub-committees would be to bring forward to the main committee those areas worthy of full examination and those areas which required examination in depth by the committee. We would not take any statutory powers unto ourselves as sub-committees. This committee would have to ratify decisions.

Senator Lenihan

I propose that we adopt this sub-committee structure.

Deputy Esmonde

We could spend hours debating the sub-divisions in respect of these committees. The sub-division suggested here seems to be rational.

Deputy S. Flanagan

Could I express the view that, as the activities of the Department of Lands are more related to social policy, it might be more appropriate to sub-committee D?

Chairman

The voice of a former Minister for Lands will have to be listened to with some respect; I would not have any strong views.

Senator Yeats

One can look at the regulations before us, No. 2, for example, from the Department of Lands, dealing with forestry, reproduction materials, and compare them with 3 and 4 dealing with vegetables, seeds, etc.; they are almost identical.

Chairman

As Deputy Staunton rightly points out, every one of us would have a view as to what should be where, and I am going to ask you to adopt this structure which is before you, subject to our ability to revise it at any time.

Deputies

Yes.

Chairman

There is only one question arising out of that. I suggested to the steering committee that in the beginning, it might be as well if I acted ex-officio as chairman of each sub-committee until they got off the ground; in that way I would be able to keep a composite picture of the situation, but if anybody can think of something else——

Deputy B. Desmond

We discussed this at the steering committee, and we felt it was necessary for somebody to pull the strings together. I think it is desirable, for the first six months anyway, to keep tabs on the sub-committees.

Deputy Kavanagh

The only problem that arises is that two sub-committees could not meet at the same time under that arrangement. It might be that if they got off the ground more rapidly and if they did want to meet separately——

Chairman

We shall keep it under review.

Deputy Staunton

At what stage do we suggest that Members should be delegated to the sub-committees?

Chairman

The steering committee also recommended that each committee should consist of eight Members with a quorum of three. What I would hope is that everybody would indicate in which of these committees he would be most interested. I shall correlate all the names and discuss the situation with the various individuals concerned and try to put together the four committees with a nice, delicate political balance in each sub-committee and with a good number of non-parliamentary delegates on each committee, because we shall not be able to depend too much on our parliamentary delegates for these sub-committees.

Deputy Kavanagh

They have a lot to do anyway. It would seem appropriate that European Parliamentary delegates who are on particular committees like agriculture would be members of the sub-committee dealing with that.

Chairman

Yes, that is a good suggestion.

Deputy Esmonde

I propose that, formally.

Chairman

If Members will indicate preferences I will then put them all together, see what they look like and come back to you with proposals.

Senator Robinson

Perhaps we should mention our view that if somebody specifically had a general interest he or she might sit in at the meeting.

Chairman

You are quite right. These will really be working committees and there will not be anything exclusive about them.

Senator Lenihan

Shall we just write down at the bottom of this document what our preferences are, and return it?

Chairman

Write on the bottom of this paper one, two, three and four in the order of your preference. Let us now get down to some real live European Communities Regulations.