Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 5 Sep 1973

Report on Regional Policy.

Chairman

The next item after the four regulations is the report from the Commission on the regional problems of the enlarged Community. I would like the Committee to deal with that matter now because some Members are anxious to leave early. We circulated to each Member a document which was not a full one, or rather a summary of the conclusions. The situation has moved on very considerably since the Commission published that particular document. I have had a word with the Minister for Foreign Affairs about this whole matter and he made it clear that this is something which is engaging his attention very fully and actively at the moment.

As Senator Lenihan has pointed out, this is going to be a very important political issue in the coming months. It is something which I believe we must get down to considering immediately. There are two things which the committee can do and I should like the Members to consider both of them. Firstly, we could try to have a meeting of the sub-committee convened immediately to discuss this matter or, alternatively, we could appoint today an ad hoc sub-committee to look at this regional policy question immediately and urgently.

In particular, I suggest that second course because the Minister for Foreign Affairs has said that he would very much like, if the sub-committee or the whole committee decide to discuss this matter, to attend the meeting and talk with us about it.

Deputy Staunton

I think the latter suggestion is the better one.

Deputy Esmonde

How soon can such a meeting be arranged?

Chairman

Unfortunately the Minister cannot attend a meeting with us before——

Deputy B. Desmond

He will be away after the 20th September; we would have to see the Minister before that date.

Senator Lenihan

I think we should see the Minister before 20th September. The net issue in all this is that it is a departure from the basic principle laid out in the preamble and incorporated in the summit decision to switch resources to the less-favoured areas to drop that and go to a simple naked quota system where everybody receives according to his strength. It is as naked and as net as that. It is a total departure from the very basic principles in the preamble and the summit mandate and, indeed, the Commission's own report.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald

Should I be able to understand that from the report before me?

Deputy B. Desmond

No.

Senator Yeats

That is only a list of the guidelines.

Chairman

As I have already stated, the situation has moved on very much since those guidelines were prepared.

Deputy Esmonde

Would it be possible to have it in writing where this arose? We have nothing before us which indicates where this change arose. I am aware that it may be difficult to do that.

Chairman

One of the big political questions at the moment is where it did arise.

Deputy Esmonde

Mr. Dalton has, through the Chairman, given us the preamble on this but I think that it would be very important from this committee's point of view if they had Chapter 3 copied and given to them. Chapter 3 gives comparisons with other countries. It gives the details of all the countries that are involved in this. If there is going to be a dog-fight about this we must know what the position is in other countries. The Preamble does not give us any clue to that. In making that suggestion I am aware that it may cause administrative difficulties but it is very essential from the point of view of Members of the committee.

Chairman

The scene has changed so considerably since the original guidelines and report was issued by the Commission that we thought at this stage a summary would suffice.

Deputy Staunton

Is there any documentation available to substantiate the suggestion that a quota system would be adopted rather than the basic philosophy originally propounded?

Chairman

Perhaps Deputy Herbert who is very much involved on the Parliamentary Committee which deals with regional policy and transport would care to make a statement on this matter.

Deputy Herbert

I am a member of the parliamentary sub-committee which deals with regional policy and transport. The Commission was required by the Paris summit of last October to submit a regional policy for the Community. The Commission submitted this document to the Council of Ministers on the 3rd May and at the Parliamentary session in June Parliament was asked to submit this report to the appropriate committee dealing with this aspect. The committee on regional policy and transport considered the Thompson Report in great depth and detail and finally submitted a report to Parliament. This report was considered by Parliament at its July meeting. The basic guidelines were adopted by the Parliament and, broadly speaking, it could be said that Parliament agreed with, and strengthened, the guidelines as laid down by Commissioner George Thompson.

Deputy Esmonde

Is the Deputy talking about the May report?

Deputy Herbert

Yes.

Chairman

I should like Deputy Herbert to go over that again for us.

Deputy Herbert

The guidelines, as requested by the Paris summit, were issued in May. They were submitted to the Council of Ministers in May. The Council of Ministers sought parliamentary opinion on this at the June session of Parliament. As is the procedure, the president of the Parliament requested the chairman of the Committee on Regional Policy and Transport to report back to the Parliament as soon as possible. The report of this committee was received at the July parliamentary session.

This report strengthened the guidelines of Commissioner George Thompson's policy with a few additions. We were against the principle of Juste Retour. We wanted the peripheral areas to be priority areas. The two peripheral areas mentioned in this report are all of Ireland and the Mezzogiorno region of Southern Italy. This was unanimously adopted by Parliament and sent back.

Chairman

Unanimously?

Deputy Herbert

Yes.

Chairman

So the report of the regional and transport committee strengthening the guidelines was unanimously adopted by the Parliament. That is very important.

Senator Yeats

The next stage will be the production of a joint directive by the Commission.

Chairman

For the information of the committee I want to establish how this guideline document now stands in parliamentary terms.

Deputy Herbert

We have considered the interim report and we will consider a final report over the coming months, I presume after October.

Senator Yeats

Presumably this will not be produced until the draft directive has been published and sent to the committee.

Chairman

The important point is that the guidelines as we have them before us, as propounded by the Commission, have been unanimously endorsed and strengthened by the Parliament. This is very significant.

Deputy Herbert

And the Commissioner agreed at the end of the debate to take full account of all the suggestions made by the members of the Parliament.

Deputy Thornley

I want to support Senator Lenihan in pressing the urgency of this matter. Deputy Herbert has clearly spelled out blow by blow what happened in Parliament. I think this is vitally urgent. This problem contains major issues of principle which, more than anything else affect Ireland. We on this committee have to accept that in many areas like this we are going to have to adopt a bi-partisan, or tri-partisan, policy on the continent because here we are concerned with issues which have nothing to do with socialism, ideology or anything else. We are simply concerned with the economics of specific areas.

I mean no disrespect to the people who prepared the documentation. I can understand the confusion of people like Deputy Esmonde because the document contained on the file is utterly useless to us unless we have an explanation of the sequence of events which caused us all to interpret that the guidelines may have been retreated from. As I understand it, the position is that the guidelines still remain fully with the support, approval and sanction of the Parliament, but in terms of the power struggle in the nine member states this may not be a very significant asset to us.

Senator Lenihan

It comes down to inter-governmental power politics.

Deputy Staunton

We have listened to Deputy Herbert's interpretation of what happened over the past three or four months. That seems to be at variance with the suggestion that there is a move afoot to work out something. Is there a suggestion that the Community are now talking about adopting a completely different methodology?

Senator Lenihan

It is said so on the inter-governmental grapevine.

Deputy Herbert

Commissioner Thompson gave a Press conference on July 26th and announced more detailed proposals. These draft regulations were sent to the member governments for their consideration.

Deputy Esmonde

We have the original report here—the green one—which goes to the Council of Ministers. They get the document and send it back to Parliament for their views. Parliament give their views, and something happens after that about which Parliament knows nothing. Is this the position?

Senator Yeats

No. Nothing has been done of a legal nature. This document which was circulated last May is purely a guideline. The only way it can be made law is when a draft directive is produced by the Commission which will go to the Parliament and be agreed by the Council. What we have so far is a piece of verbiage in the form of pious hopes. The crunch comes when the legal document—the directive—is produced. It would seem that the basic point is where a directive has been sent to the various governments, including our own.

Chairman

I am sure the Senator was just being descriptive, but I do not think anybody here would regard the original guidelines as " verbiage ". We would all regard them as very acceptable.

Deputy O'Kennedy

The important thing is that, whatever title is applied to these documents, there has been a consistency all along about the preparation of the guidelines from the Paris Summit, through the Commission, to the European Parliament. We have no clear information since except that there are moves afoot on a national level apparently, which would indicate that the consistency which ran right through is not going to be followed. This may be taken as contrary to the whole notion expressed in these various documents.

Deputy B. Desmond

On the question of information from the committee, the Minister is very anxious to have his hand strengthened by the 26 members of the committee, when he is going to the final negotiations in a matter of weeks. There are two points outstanding—the national development fund and the method of national appropriation, and the system of allocation. We would need to meet the Minister for Foreign Affairs before he goes to the United Nations, before the 20th September if possible, and to ask him to tabulate for us the issues on which he might require our views. If the Minister for Foreign Affairs would do that it would help.

Deputy O'Kennedy

There should be a consistent approach on this. We are all ad idem. We want to strengthen the Minister’s hand as much as possible and to ensure that our views on the national interest in this matter are made clear.

Deputy Esmonde

Surely Commissioner Thompson must have communicated with some organ of the Government in this country. Can we not have that communication before us before the Minister for Foreign Affairs comes in?

Chairman

There is no communication that we as a committee know of.

Deputy B. Desmond

There have been documents. The Irish Commissioner has been pushing the Irish view.

Senator Robinson

I agree with Senator Lenihan. It is becoming a matter of inter-governmental bargaining. Our role is to strengthen the hand of the Minister and to be clear on what is in Ireland's interest. Party politics will not enter into this. We want to be able to operate quickly and effectively. If we are to have a full and frank discussion with the Minister there should be a sub-committee or a committee meeting in private so that we can get all the information available.

Chairman

Senators Lenihan and Yeats have to leave now.

Senator Robinson

Perhaps a sub-committee might downgrade this committee. This is a matter of such interest to the whole committee that it might be better if the committee met in private session as soon as possible.

Deputy O'Kennedy

We would obviously require, as a committee, to be appraised as soon as possible of whatever clear indications there might be, from whatever source.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald

We might have a private meeting.

Chairman

This committee or a sub-committee might seek from the Minister for Foreign Affairs a full briefing on the situation, in confidence. It would be better to have the Minister along in person for a confidential briefing to the whole committee rather than have somebody in his Department prepare a report.

Deputy Esmonde

This meeting could be in camera with no report at all on it.

Chairman

Agreed. Perhaps this could happen at our next meeting. There remain a few matters about staffing and accommodation for the committee. We will discuss them in private.

The Committee went into private session.

The Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m.