Yesterday we dealt with the report of the Oireachtas Sub-committee so therefore the next item is the staffing of our secretariat. Here I am afraid I have to report a very dismal and frustrating picture. As of this moment we literally have no staff.
Staffing of Committee.
Did the chairman mention this to the Minister yesterday?
I did mention it to the Minister and he appeared to be startled at this information. The situation in detail is that we have submitted to the Ceann Comhairle a full brief of our estimated requirements. That request has been transmitted by the Ceann Comhairle to the Minister for Finance with the full support of the Ceann Comhairle. The Ceann Comhairle assures me that he is making every possible effort to have action taken by the Department of Finance in regard to our requirements. Just before our meeting of yesterday the Ceann Comhairle informed me that he had received a reply from the Department of Finance to his request. He indicated to me that this reply was completely unsatisfactory.
The Ceann Comhairle has done me the courtesy of showing me the letter which he received from the Department of Finance. I have passed this letter around to the Members for their own information. The question now arises as to what action the committee can take. It seems to me that it is impossible to carry on in our present situation. The volume of work is increasing steadily and we are endeavouring to cope with it as best we can, amateurishly and, if you like, in an unprofessional way. This morning we have to come to some decision as to what we are going to do about this matter.
What is the reason for this?
I am sure it is the usual finance bluff.
I believe the committee ought to take very seriously the fact that even though we have been in existence since August we still do not have proper staff. It is really an insult to this committee to set them up, pride ourselves in the fact that we have a joint committee of this nature and then not staff the committee. I believe this committee must express strong views about this matter. I am not satisfied that enough efforts have been made to get staff. It sounds as though the Ceann Comhairle in the circumstances has expedited the sending on of the letter which we sent to him to get this staff but I am not sure that that is enough. I think that he has a very constructive role to play here.
I would be happier if I were informed that there had been consultation with the Cathaoirleach and that there had been an interview with the Minister. I do not think that it is enough particularly when we are looking for substantial staff. We are looking for a high level professional backup to this committee. The letter has been transmitted to the Minister and I note that the Minister took a long time to reply to it. In the meantime we are trying to cope with the most urgent problem, which is the regional policy, and a number of other domestic regulations, without adequate staff. The result is that the committee cannot be briefed to the extent necessary.
I commend the way in which the committee have been briefed in these circumstances but I do not think that this can continue unless staff are provided. The way in which this committee can act on this if they feel as strongly as I do, is to draw the attention of the first House to meet, the Dáil, by reporting specifically on that. Let us have it on the floor of the House that the committee are not being treated seriously and are not being given professional back-up service and ask what does the Dáil think of this.
I would be in favour of a specific report going from this committee to be on the agenda when the Dáil sits next Wednesday.
The way to highlight that is to adjourn sine die.
Some people may be delighted to see that.
I should like to support Senator Robinson because I feel very strongly about this matter. I am not going to bore the committee with one of my hobbyhorses but I do not often get an opportunity of talking here. I think the situation is absolutely farcical and it reflects very badly on the Oireachtas. The back-up staffs in support of other delegations exceed ours by 100 per cent, virtually. It is an incredible situation. The volume of material which comes to us is quite ludicrous. We are not competent to cope and we find ourselves in the situation where the people we are in competition with to some extent, particularly in such bi-partisan areas as regional policy which I have asked to be discussed by the Socialist group because I believe we have a bi-partisan attitude on this, have by far greater back-up facilities.
We are not competent to do this. This Parliament must recognise that it cannot have it both ways. If the Parliament want to take Europe seriously it is going to have to spend money to support us with the back-up staffs which will filter information from the documents sent to the Members of the European Parliament.
Of the volume of material coming to me roughly 1 per cent is relevant to any useful contribution I can make to the EEC on behalf of Ireland. I need somebody to be able to tell me what concerns and does not concern me. We had a referendum during which we fought an extensive campaign on the question of joining the EEC. The Labour Party opposed entry to Europe, some with tongues rather firmly inserted in their cheeks and some more sincerely but, one way or another, a decision was taken to join the Community. Here we are sitting on a large committee to discuss European Affairs but we have not been provided with the necessary back-up staff. I do not believe that Parliament is taking this situation seriously.
I feel strongly about this matter and I take this opportunity of reporting, as Senator Lenihan said, the feeling of Europe. The sense I get is that the Dáil does not appreciate that some day an Irish Minister for Finance will introduce certain forms of taxation and forms of social services and somebody from a constituency in the country will ask him why he did not do X or Y and the Minister will explain that he could not under the Treaty of Accession. He will say: " I had to do it the way they do it in Europe."
Then and only then, when it is possibly too late, is the individual Dáil Deputy or voter going to realise that to a great extent the content of our lives is determined by decisions taken in documents like these on my table. At the same time we sit here without adequate staff or back-up support services. This is something we should be very definite about. Potentially, this committee is possibly the most important committee of the whole Dáil, although it could barely muster a quorum today. It is more important than the Restaurant Committee or the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. We are getting a constant rebuff about staffing. I do not know what sort of protest we can make. So far as I am concerned, travelling backwards and forwards to Europe and increasingly understanding how exposed the Irish economy is to the decisions taken by major blocs such as the Germans, whatever sort of protest we make it just could not be too strong.
I agree. It is a ludicrous situation. The only way to get a Minister for Finance moving is to expose the situation and have it out on the floor of the House. Otherwise, we will be "to-ing" and "fro-ing" and making representations.
It would seem to me that the approach of the committee should be to make a factual report to the Dáil indicating when we considered the question of staffing and mentioning the submission made and the fact that we got the full approval of the Ceann Comhairle. I feel that more could have been done, and while we got the full approval of the Ceann Comhairle the reply from the Minister has been unsatisfactory and, in fact, insulting to this committee. We have real staffing requirements in order to do the job we have been set up to do.
We recently met representatives from a parliament of another country in the EEC. From our discussions it appeared that quite a different attitude was adopted by Governments in EEC matters. There was a fuller type of service provided. I do not want to mention the names of countries.
Particularly the Dutch.
Yes, and our institutions here seem to be adopting a completely different attitude which is out of keeping with the other European countries. It is essential that we should have a proper service.
Before making any report to the Dáil on the matter I think we should continue our negotiations with the Minister for Finance. We want for this committee a clerk administrator with staff equivalent to that post, which is similar to the Clerk Assistant's post in the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad. We also want four principal officers and four assistant principal officers and four higher executive officers, a shorthand typist and three typists. We also want a principal clerk. That is a total of 18 people. So far we have agreement for one post equivalent to a general service principal officer and one post equivalent to a general service assistant principal officer. The next step is to go to see the Minister himself. I am quite sure that the chairman of the committee is a worthy protagonist in terms of negotiations with Deputy Ryan, the Minister. If we fail to convince the Department of Finance and the Minister that this committee deserves staff of the calibre we are seeking, then the committee could report to the Dáil. So far all that has happened is that there is a memorandum from the Ceann Comhairle. I hold strongly that there should have been a memorandum following consultation with the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. There was not consultation on this point with the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. The letter before us today should go to the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad.
There is a question of a joint committee and a question of consultation while, in fact, the final transmission of any news is the responsibility of the Ceann Comhairle. This must be done on a broad basis. This might be one of the difficulties which may have caused reticence on the part of the Minister for Finance. The chairman and, perhaps, two or three Members of the committee from the different political parties should, perhaps, go to see Deputy R. Ryan next week when the Dáil resumes and impress on him that the staff proposed would be inadequate. The Minister should be informed that unless we can make progress in the field of staffing we will have to report appropriately to both Houses. We can let both Houses accept the responsibility for the Minister's decision.
One must have certain sympathy with both the Minister and the Department of Finance. They are not convinced that our staffing complement demand is necessary. It is our job to convince them and it is their job to act as devils' advocates until the last minute. We must take this seriously. The Minister said in his correspondence to the Ceann Comhairle that he was not satisfied that the responsibilities of the most senior officers required for the joint committee would be equal to those of Clerk Assistant of the Dáil or Clerk of the Seanad. Let us examine that point with him. That is a subjective argument. It is also dangerous. We should have higher status staff than departmental service grades. We can negotiate with the Department. The Minister has been away for a number of weeks. We can go back to him now.
I must seriously disagree with Deputy Desmond. I think he is being too conciliatory in his attitude. He has forgotten our dates. Our time is passing. We first considered this in early August. Far from the Minister appearing to meet us a little on staff, he has misunderstood the nature of this committee. He is conceding the possibility of needing even two or three officers at a lower level administratively than we have requested. He has not understood that we have an urgent necessity for technical, professional staff with expertise in the areas in which we have formed sub-committees.
This is a matter on which we could negotiate for months. We must negotiate with the Minister and we must refer back to the Houses of the Oireachtas and, in particular, to the Dáil next week. This is not in substitution for negotiations with the Minister. It is to make it known that we are in this ludicrous position. We have been talking about reporting to the Oireachtas on regional policy in order that it may be relevant to the present decisions being taken in Europe. Sub-committees would have to report without the expertise they should have. They will make the best effort they can but they will be handicapped. We cannot continue in this way. I would see this as a much more urgent problem than Deputy Desmond seems prepared to concede.
Our position in negotiating with the Minister is strengthened by reporting to the Dáil. It is appropriate that we report to the Dáil on a matter as important as this. There are no alternatives. I do not think we should have further prolonged discussions with the Minister. By late November we will have lost the possibility of making an impact when we ought to be making it. At that stage we have lost the possibility of making an impact when we ought to be making it. The committee will lose confidence without this professional back-up. I take it so seriously that I hope if it comes to a vote we will vote on this issue because I certainly am in favour of a strong factual report to the Dáil from this committee for the Dáil to consider when it is convened next week.
My trade union experience has taught me over the years that when you are looking for something you do not put your employer in a situation where he is forced to say " no ".
We are not employed by the Minister for Finance, we are employed by the Dáil and Seanad.
I merely threw out that analogy to apply in terms of what I regard as negotiation between this committee and the Minister to get the staff we want. The Department of Finance presumably have considered this at the highest level and the Minister himself——
That is what I doubt.
I would think there has been some consideration and I am sure the Minister has considered the matter as well. We do not conduct negotiations by means of memoranda; memoranda are tossed around from file to file; you go and see the person.
Meanwhile you have lost two months.
Before we become heavy-handed about the matter we should go to see the Minister. We can do that almost immediately. We can meet again next week or in a fortnight's time. We can find out what exactly is the feeling in the Department of Finance about this and disabuse the Department of any ideas of downgrading this committee and disabuse the Minister if he has been affected by an idea of downgrading the committee. If I may advise my colleague, we should keep our heavy ammunition for later.
I have to support Senator Robinson here. Maybe fools rush in where trade unionists fear to tread but I do not think the analogy of a trade union is quite valid. This is a unique situation, a vitally important committee, and if we are to compare it with negotiating for salary structures as far as I am concerned I am going back to Trinity College to the Faculty of Political Science. If the Civil Service is going to take this attitude towards this committee I tremble for the future of the Irish economy.
Can we take the two approaches together?
In support of what Senator Robinson said, it immediately crossed my mind that if we decide to send the report to the Houses of the Oireachtas we ourselves will have to draft this report. We will have to draft it from our own membership. That is totally unsatisfactory but as we stand there is no other way of doing it.
We are only a committee of the joint Houses. It is the business of the Dáil primarily that a committee set up of Members of the Dáil is not being properly staffed. Why should we act as a buffer between the Minister for Finance and the Dáil? We are not being heavy-handed but we are putting it back to its primary position. We are making a factual report that negotiations are continuing but that we are most dissatisfied with the way in which they are continuing. This seems to me to be very important.
We must remember that negotiations between the Dáil and the Minister is primarily a matter for the Ceann Comhairle, in consultation with the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, because it is a joint committee. We must, as a committee, work through the Ceann Comhairle and naturally the most appropriate way of negotiating is that the Ceann Comhairle, backed up heavily by the Members of this committee, particularly by the Chairman, should see the Minister for Finance, Deputy Ryan. This committee cannot, in any way, be seen to be going over the head of the Ceann Comhairle in regard to staffing procedures within the House. We do not decide staffing.
Are you suggesting we cannot report to the Oireachtas without the permission of the Ceann Comhairle on this question?
I am not suggesting that. I think though, in fairness to the Ceann Comhairle, the memorandum which he sent to the Department should be written into the record of this committee if that is permissible. As yet we have not recorded our requirements in the report of this committee.
Are we not at negotiation stage still?
And I suggest the reply of the Minister should also be written into the record. Members of the Dáil and Seanad will have a full record of the extent to which——
Not at the moment, surely?
I would not be terribly enamoured with that suggestion but I should say, for the record, that the Ceann Comhairle has assured me that he has been assiduous in endeavouring to get some positive reaction from the Department of Finance to the memorandum which he submitted. He described his efforts as having been bombarding them since his memorandum was submitted. In fact, it was only on the eve of the meeting of this committee yesterday that he got a reply at all.
What was the date of the memorandum and the date of the reply?
The Ceann Comhairle's letter went on 10th September, 1973, the reply was dated 11th October, 1973, and that is not bad.
That is very bad.
I think it is very bad.
In my experience of the Department of Finance it is not bad.
Can we take all the approaches in a parallel way?
I am not at all opposed to the idea, if the rules of the House permit, of making a factual report to the House on the situation at the earliest possible moment and, at the same time, proceeding immediately to seek an interview with the Minister for Finance, through the good offices of the Ceann Comhairle.
It may be that if we get a satisfactory reply from the Minister for Finance this may never be discussed.
I agree with that two-pronged approach. May I ask what may be a very stupid question? I have been out of the country so long that I may be out of touch. During the negotiations was there not an arrangement for a monthly debate on EEC matters? What is the present position? Do we not have an obligation to force the Dáil to consider our work at regular intervals? I would have thought so.
We can report to the Dáil at any time on any matter we wish. We did decide, as a committee, as a general principle, that we should have, at the latest, a report to the Houses of the Oireachtas to coincide with the Government's next six-monthly report.
Which will be debated?
There are statutory duties to be performed and we cannot perform our statutory duties. The Minister and the House must accept that we know what our job is. We were nominated to do a job. We were chosen by our respective parties to do our job and, if we cannot do it, it is our duty to report to the House that we cannot do it in the present circumstances. It is as simple as that. We should be the best judges of what we want.
We should also appreciate that this is the first time that a joint committee of this magnitude has been set up in the history of the State. Heretofore when committees were set up they were serviced in the normal way by the staff of the House taking on extra duties.
With respect to the Deputy's greater experience in negotiations, that is precisely why we have to be very sharply aware that we are different and that we do need the proper staffing. From the very beginning we have got to make a direct approach on these lines because I can see negotiations continuing after Christmas and we still will not have a staff.
We have got sanction from the Minister for a principal officer of the General Service Grade.
That is totally inadequate.
We have also got sanction for a General Service assistant principal. It is slow and it is most inadequate, but we are on the road.
Knowing a bit about the bureaucratic mind I know that the only way to implant what we want in the bureaucratic mind is to emphasise that this is a vastly different committee from a usual committee and that it must be properly structured.
We are at the crisis stage.
There are arrears of work outstanding?
They are formidable. We have at least 300 major technical documents which we are not technically equipped to deal with on our plate.
If it is open to me I should like to propose that this committee authorise the Chairman to draw up a factual report on the staffing question, when it was first considered by the sub-committee, what the workload is—that is very important—what our statutory obligations are and the state of play to date. Rather than trying to argue the matter let us make a factual report and let any arguments for or against it come on the floor of the House if it is debated. We could have a report ready when the Dáil meets and the committee could authorise the Chairman to put in that report in so far as the rules of the House permit.
Subject always to the fact that if between now and next Wednesday we get complete satisfaction or even partial satisfaction——
We will rely on the Chairman's descretion.
The Library situation is also unsatisfactory, not due to anybody's fault in particular. We have procured sanction for additional staff for the Library, one assistant librarian and two clerical assistants. The two clerical assistants took up duty more or less straight away and the Civil Service Commissioners set about getting us an assistant librarian. Unfortunately the two clerical assistants have since left to take up other appointments. The man selected by the Civil Service Commissioners found on reflection that he wanted to do further post-graduate studies and declined to take up the post. The Civil Service Commissioners are at present seeking to procure another person for us for appointment as assistant librarian and two other new clerical assistants have been recruited and are being trained.
The situation, therefore, can be summed up as follows: the machinery is grinding away endeavouring to meet our requirements but has not yet succeeded in doing so. The matter is in train.