We will have a general discussion on the whole question at our next meeting. There are some other matters. First of all, I think we should have a meeting next week. I suppose Thursday would suit everybody—Thursday at 3 p.m. The next point I want to deal with is that of staffing. Here, once more, I must report a very unsatisfactory—indeed, a desperate—situation. I think you are all aware that what has been offered is entirely inadequate for our purposes and I must say to you that I cannot see the committee continuing with their work unless some radical change comes about in the situation. A deputation from the committee went to see the Minister for Finance, accompanied by the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. We put to the Minister as strongly as possible our requirements and the appalling situation in which we find ourselves. The Minister, in speaking to us, urged us—I hope I am reporting the position correctly—to accept the offer he had already made to us. It was totally unacceptable and we stated that we could not possibly undertake to do the job delegated to us by both Houses of the Oireachtas unless we get staff along the lines we have submitted to the Ceann Comhairle. I do not know if any of the other people who were on that deputation have anything they would like to add.
Staffing of Committee
The Minister has, in fact, read the report of the discussion in the joint committee on Friday, 12th October, on this question of staffing and he was aware that the proposal had been rejected by the joint committee and that indeed, we had requested the Chairman to draw up a factual report on the staffing question for presentation to both Houses of the Oireachtas. In other words, we had accepted in principle the point the Chairman made that we cannot continue as at present. Speaking from experience of the sub-committee on this regional policy document, we were in a position involving a great deal of expert work and we ought, I think, be grateful to the Chairman and the Clerk of the committee for the work done on it, but we could not possibly continue on that basis. We had a proposal, which was passed by the joint committee, to refer the matter back to the Houses of the Oireachtas and it would seem that the necessity to go back to the Houses of the Oireachtas is even clearer now than it was then. It is clear the Minister for Finance does not think the committee need the technical staffing and back-up service. It is a matter of principle. We are a joint committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas and we can only refer back to these Houses to ask them whether we are a committee that needs technical staffing and the sort of back-up services we think necessary to do the task and, if so, can we have the proper staff and proper arrangements made for such staffing. I do not think there is any value in trying to push it any further as a committee. I do not think we have the strength. I think we can only report back and I would like this draft report, which the joint committee did request at the last meeting, before us next week for submission to the Houses of the Oireachtas so that it may be debated there.
It is only fair to say that the Minister explained his own difficulties and the Minister for Foreign Affairs explained his difficulties and the difficulties arising in all Departments. We were given to understand that officers of Departments would be available to us. We were under a different impression as a result of something said at a previous meeting. I understand—I have not had time to check on this—that there is a staff provided for our sister house of parliament across the water and I think it might be no harm, before we go as far as the Dáil and Seanad on this matter, to have a look at the framework set up in relation to the Westminster parliament because they must be in the same position as we are here.
To answer that specific point, the House of Lords and the Commons have not set up a working committee on European legislation as such. They have two procedural committees, but they have not done what we have done, and they envy us the fact that we have got a working committee. I think we might very well make these inquiries, but they do not displace the urgency of our need and the intractable approach of the Minister for Finance when he says the present staff is appropriate, in contrast to our view is that we do not need additional technical staff. It certainly was an improvement of the position to assure us that the officials of the various Departments would be available to come to sessions of the sub-committees to assist us, but they are already over-worked at the moment with the extra strain of Community activity.
Unfortunately, he did not guarantee that they would be " available ". He said they would be authorised to come to us subject to the availability.
That is the whole point. We must come back to that.
I do not think there is anything they can do for us. We must try to work out some via media.
What are the difficulties Deputy Esmonde mentioned as the reason the Minister put forward——
The staff was not available, and that was confirmed by the Ceann Comhairle to the committee. It is a general problem in most parts of the service. In actual fact I understand the person who was made available for the librarian in the Library here is no longer available.
I am sure we can deal with the difficulties.
I think I must report a little differently in this regard. I am afraid that the Minister is not convinced that we need the staff that we are of the opinion that we need. I would see that as the main stumbling block from our point of view. He is not satisfied that in order to do our work we need the staff we have suggested. He seemed to be satisfied with his own suggestion that a principal clerk and an assistant-principal clerk would be adequate.
Might I make just one specific proposal on the position that we are in at the moment ? The Minister has made this recommendation; he has authorised a senior principal officer and an assistant. This was for staff from within the confines of the Oireachtas, and I think we are in a position to know that, in fact, the Houses themselves could provide us with two principal officers. In other words, if we insist on it, we can get a second man of principal officer standing, and since this is a Joint Committee and, therefore, representative of the Dáil and Seanad, the very least we should start with is two senior officers, that is of principal officer standing. We already have Mr. Dalton in that capacity and we would look for a second officer of similar principal officer standing. In that respect our approach ought to be to the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach, that they might, in joint deputation, make this point to the Minister for Finance. That ought to be our first practical step before we look for further staff, not that two such principal officers would be adequate, but that they could be immediately available to us. We can come back to the House of the Oireachtas on the question of whether we need the technical staff we say we need. I would like to make that a formal proposal.
We have this before us next week.
We are in a dilemma. Our aim is to function effectively. We cannot do that without staff. We have sought to persuade the Minister for Finance as to our need for staff and we have failed to do so. Admittedly, the Minister finally, at the conclusion of our meeting did say he would consider what we had said, but he did not hold any particular hope. I do not know whether we should, at our next meeting, seriously consider reporting our position to both Houses of the Oireachtas.
I think this is the only way to——
I would like to pin us to the precise undertakings in connection with the meeting of the committee on 12th October where we took a decision suspended merely to consider the attitude of the Minister for Finance. I do not think we have got an adequate response; I would agree very much with your interpretation of what was said : that the Minister does not accept that we need the staff we believe we need. It is up to the Oireachtas to decide what sort of a committee this is: is it a new type of committee which considers policies in depth, and, therefore, we need expert assistance, or is it not? We cannot continue any longer on the basis of our thinking we are a new type of committee needing expert assistance and the Minister thinking we are not. It is proposed that the chairman bring in the report of the committee on 12th October—
Would the committee feel this could be put in this form before the Minister for Finance once more? I was not present at that meeting, so it does strike me that before we take so radical a step we should have one more try. I was not there so I may be talking——
I am certainly prepared to continue trying but my feeling is that we have put our case as ably and as strongly and as adequately as we can to the Minister.
We have got to face the problem that the Public Services Department, presumably advising the Minister himself, does not consider that the work load of the committee warrants the calibre and size of staff we have sought. I do not think he changed his mind during the course of the interview we had with him. But he did undertake to seriously consider the points we made—and we made them very forcefully at the deputation. We still hold the view—I would not share the view we need as many as we originally demanded—that we need a substantial number of staff, and we should like to inform the Minister for Finance that unless we hear from him of some substantial improvement between now and next week we shall be constrained to make a report in the matter to the House.
That would be my point. There is a breakdown of communications. If he felt as strongly as the members of the committee on this matter he would realise that this is something that not only ought to be done but must be done.
A new enterprise does not start off with all the staff they intend to have. One must often be satisfied with a skeleton staff while developing up to the full range of services wanted.
I am fully supported by the Ceann Comhairle, who is quite satisfied with our proposals about the staff we need.
The Minister recognised that we have a statutory function. This comes down to fundamental principles if Parliament are going to take this committee seriously. This is important for Ireland. It will have to be thrashed out in Parliament. This applies to any Government. It amounts to the fact that the Oireachtas are not treating this matter seriously.
We must show that we are serious about this. The committee must be serviced properly. The Civil Service may think they can handle this themselves.
The committee went into private session.
The committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 1st November, 1973.