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Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 1974

Consideration of Draft Report by Oireachtas Sub-Committee on European Communities (Companies) Regulations, 1973.

You have all been furnished with a copy of the draft report which was prepared by the Oireachtas Sub-Committee on the European Communities (Companies) Regulations, 1973, (S.I. No. 163 of 1973). The draft report is open for discussion and for any comment any member would like to make on it.

My view is that we might consider the draft today more or less in the same way as we consider a piece of legislation in either House on Second Reading, its general format and what is contained in it, and then, perhaps, bring it forward for final consideration at our next meeting.

These regulations deal, inter alia, with a fairly complicated matter in regard to the ultra vires rule. In the preparation of the draft report, the Oireachtas Sub-Committee has had the advice and assistance of some of the members of that committee who are also lawyers, and we have some lawyers here also on the joint committee itself who can give this matter their specialised attention. However, I do want to draw attention to the fact that we have not had available to us in considering this fairly complex legal matter any expert opinion or advice outside our own membership. Therefore, to that extent the Report is, not in as final form as I would have liked it to be, coming before us.

The committee made three recommendations. Are we dealing only with the ultra vires rule?

No, the whole Report. Perhaps I might go through the report paragraph by paragraph. Paragraph I is merely explanatory. It reads:

The Joint Committee has examined the European Communities (Companies) Regulations, 1973 (S.I. No. 163 of 1973) and desires to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas as follows.

Paragraph 2 reads as follows:

The Regulations in question have been made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the powers conferred on him by section 3 of the European Communities Act, 1972 (No. 27 of 1972) and purport to give effect to Council Directive of the European Communities of 9 March, 1968 (68/151/EEC). Their main provisions are that:—

(a) they are to be construed with the Companies Act, 1963 (Regulation 2);

(b) they are to apply to registered companies with limited liability and certain unregistered companies with limited liability (Regulation 3);

(c) such companies shall provide for official notification by means of publication in Iris Oifigiúil (Regulation 4) and for the publication of additional information on a company’s business letter and order forms (Regulation 9);

There are other provisions, (d) to (f). Does anybody wish to make any comment on the manner in which the provisions are set out in paragraphs (a) to (f)? On page 2, in paragraph 3 of the report three aspects of the regulations are mentioned. Does anybody wish to add to the aspects on which the committee might wish to report?

I was a member of the sub-committee and we referred to these three aspects. We also considered another aspect, namely that the amended articles of association have to be sent to the Registrar of Companies in their entirety and felt this needed examination. This causes administrative inconvenience to solicitors. If there is any slight modification all the documents have to be sent or there are penalties to be faced. I would be interested to have the question of this inconvenience put before the committee as a fourth aspect.

Perhaps the Senator would like to elaborate for the benefit of the committee.

Regulation 4 of the European Communities (Companies) Regulations, 1973, reads as follows:

A company shall publish in Iris Oifigiúil notice of the delivery to or the issue by the registrar of companies after the commencement of these regulations of the following documents and particulars—

(a) any certificate of incorporation of the company;

(b) the memorandum and articles of association, or the charter, statutes or other instrument constituting or defining the constitution of the company (in these regulations included in the term " memorandum and articles of association ");

(c) any document making or evidencing an alteration in its memorandum or articles of association;

(d) every amended text of its memorandum and articles of association;

(e) any return relating to its register of directors, or notification of a change among its directors;

(f) any return relating to the persons, other than the board of directors, authorised to enter into transactions binding the company, or notification of a change among such persons;

(g) its annual return;

(h) any notice of the situation of its registered office, or of any change therein;

(i) any copy of a winding up order in respect of the company;

(j) any order for the dissolution of the company on a winding up;

(k) any return by a liquidator of the final meeting of the company on a winding up.

It has been brought to my attention by a number of solicitors that combining this regulation with regulation 5 is causing administrative inconvenience to both companies and to the legal profession. They regard it as unnecessary that each time they have to submit the entire text of the Memo and Articles of Association. I am not quite clear whether this is absolutely necessary under the Directive. This seems to be a cumbersome way of implementing the obligations. Perhaps the joint committee should examine this.

We could consider it in revising the draft report, include it and comment on it later.

Does Senator Robinson mean it should not be necessary in all cases to do it?

Not in all cases, but only if there is a major alteration in the Articles of Association. At the moment any minor change necessitates sending all that documentation again. This is causing inconvenience. I would welcome the views of the solicitors who are involved in this in a practical way.

This places a tremendous onus on the solicitors.

It is worth re-examining.

If it is to be done in some cases and not in others it would be difficult to define.

It might be useful to get practical knowledge on how inconvenient it is.

We should try to do that. Can we now come to the modification of the ultra vires rule? This is a matter of considerable importance and is also very complex. We are indebted to the members of the subcommittee and, in particular, to Senator Alexis FitzGerald who examined the whole matter for us. Unfortunately, Senator Alexis FitzGerald is not with us today. It will be seen in the succeeding paragraphs what is doubtful in regard to the modification. The first point to note is that when the Minister wished to do something about this point he had three options open to him. He could have brought in amending legislation to amend section 8 of the Companies Act; he could, by way of regulation under the European Communities Act, 1972, have made regulations purporting to amend section 8 of the Companies Act; he could do as he has done and made regulations to be read in conjunction with section 8. Have members of the committee any views on the Minister’s approach to this?

This is a very difficult and obscure way of amending section 8 without doing so expressly. It contrasts with the way in which the British amended their provisions. In section 9 of their European Communities Act, 1972, they amended in a very straightforward way the ultra vires rule there. One of the difficulties with regard to regulations is that they are not immediately drawn to the attention of somebody who reads the Companies Act, 1963. There is no subsequent Companies Act or provision of the European Communities Act itself to which a person can refer. You have to look for and find this particular regulation. Even when you have found this regulation, as Senator FitzGerald made clear in his brief, it is hard to read the regulation and section 8 of the Companies Act together. There seems to be a good deal of difficulty in construing them together and I think this is an unnecessarily obscure and difficult way of achieving the object of implementing the directive.

The logical way would be to amend section 8.

Yes. This could have been done quite easily by a regulation expressly amending section 8. It would not need to be done by a full Act of Parliament.

That is the point I want to make. Do we really favour the idea that the Minister should have amended section 8 by regulation under the European Communities Act or by a piece of amending legislation through both Houses of the Oireachtas?

When you are dealing with something which affects a very important part of a difficult Act it would be preferable to amend it by amending legislation. There is difficulty for a person reading an Act to realise that the regulation exists but, even if he did, there is some danger of a slight confusion of conflict between the regulation and the Act as it stands. Unless you amend the Act the danger is there.

Senator Robinson, I take it that you would be content with a regulation which would specifically amend the Act?

I think I would agree with Senator Ryan that the best course would be an amending Act, or a specific section in the European Communities Act, so that it would be quite clear during the debates in both Houses what was being done and that it was a clear amendment of section 8. Secondly, it would be preferable to this particular regulation to have used the express power in section 3 of the European Communities Act, 1972, to amend section 8 of the Companies Act and in that way to put everyone on notice that this had been done. The third course, which has been adopted here, does not amend section 8 expressly but has to be construed with section 8 and gives rise to problems in wording as a result and the possible conflict in knowing when a person has " actual knowledge " for the purposes of the ultra vires rule.

Surely the right way to approach it is by amendment so that it is made quite clear precisely what section 8 of the Companies Act now means?

Amendment by legislation?

There are considerable advantages from the point of view of the administrative machine in doing something by way of ministerial regulation. Therefore I want to put it to those of you who are arguing instead for amending legislation, that you would need to be very well satisfied that was the right thing to do and that that was the only thing to do.

This is a question which will arise again and again and I think we will find that for convenience and when urgency enters into it we will have to settle for regulations on certain occasions but that we will amend at the earliest possible opportunity what we were doing by regulation. This, in fact, will be done later by incorporating in the Act, by having an amending Act, and merely have a holding operation until such time as that is done.

Particularly something like the companies legislation. This is a basic charter for all companies operating. There is no point in having it done by ministerial agreement.

Is it the view of most of the members that the way in which this was done, the making of regulations which were construed side by side with section 8 of the Companies Act, can give rise to difficulties for practitioners and others? Therefore, it would be the view of the committee that it should have been done by amending legislation.

No. It should have been done by way of amendment of section 8, whether by way of amending legislation or by a specific amendment under section 3 of the European Communities Act by using that power to amend by a ministerial regulation. I would agree with Senator Ryan that we will see, increasingly, this power to make ministerial regulations amending Acts of Parliament, exercised for convenience, speed, et cetera. I think we ought to be aware it is unusual. Indeed, a new power is given to Ministers to be able by regulation to amend Acts of Parliament. We ought to be very wary of how they do it, particularly, as Senator Lenihan said, in a major piece of legislation such as the Companies Act. We might from time to time, although accepting in the short term the power of the Minister by ministerial regulation to amend a section or part of an Act of Parliament, request that as soon as it is proper and convenient—for example if a new Companies Act is being brought in—that this would be tidied up and incorporated in the statute. The real criticism of this present regulation is that it does not purport to amend section 8 in any way, but has to be read in a rather cumbersome and difficult way with section 8 as it stands.

Are section 8 and this new regulation in conflict?

If you read pages 3 and 4 of the brief which Senator FitzGerald has given on trying to read the two provisions—section 8 and regulation 6 together—you will see there is an apparent area of conflict in them.

We could not specifically say they are in conflict but we could certainly say doubts arise as to the construction of the regulation having regard to the wording of section 8.

We are making work for the lawyers.

This is a difficulty which could so easily have been avoided.

We must point out how that could be avoided.

Should we go further and, after whatever criticisms we make of what has happened, also make a recommendation that at the earliest possible moment this situation should be rectified by amending legislation? I do not think it is necessary for us, now that we have brought all the full legal implications of what has happened before us, to recite in our report to the Oireachtas the full legal argument which Senator Robinson has very expertly put before us. It would be sufficient for the purpose of our report if we just adverted to the difficulties of construction and interpretation.

I suggest we might state again for the purpose of the record the view of the Joint Committee after their deliberations.

Following is the statement:

"(i) Modification of the ultra vires rule : Prior to the making of the European Communities (Companies) Regulations, 1973, the law in regard to the ultra vires rule was set out in section 8 of the Companies Act, 1963, as follows :

8. —(1) Any act or thing done by a company which if the company had been empowered to do the same would have been lawfully and effectively done, shall, notwithstanding that the company had no power to do such act or thing, be effective in favour of any person relying on such act or thing who is not shown to have been actually aware, at the time when he so relied thereon, that such act or thing was not within the powers of the company, but any director or officer of the company who was responsible for the doing by the company of such act or thing shall be liable to the company for any loss or damage suffered by the company in consequence thereof.

(2) The court may, on the application of any member or holder of debentures of a company, restrain such company from doing any act or thing which the company has no power to do.

It will be seen that this modification relates only to the objects of a company. Modification of this rule could have been effected (a) by amending section 8 either by way of a short Act amending the Act of 1963 or by a regulation under section 3 of the European Communities Act, 1972 or (b) by making a Regulation as has been done in Regulation 6, which is to be construed with section 8 of the Companies Act, 1963.

Regulation 6 reads as follows:

Organs authorised to bind companies

6.—(1) In favour of a person dealing with a company in good faith, any transaction entered into by any organ of the company, being its board of directors or any person registered under these regulations as a person authorised to bind the company, shall be deemed to be within the capacity of the company, and any limitation of the powers of that board or person, whether imposed by the memorandum or articles of association or otherwise, may not be relied upon as against any person so dealing with the company.

(2) Any such person shall be presumed to have acted in good faith unless the contrary is proved.

(3) For the purpose of this Regulation, the registration of a person authorised to bind the company shall be effected by delivering to the registrar of companies a notice giving the name and description of the person concerned.

It will be seen that the modification thereby effected relates to the powers of organs of a company.

It seems to the Joint Committee that the proper way to have effected the further modification was by an amendment of section 8 itself of the Act of 1963 as failure to do so could seem to have the following consequences.

Third parties are protected under section 8 unless they can be shown to have actual knowledge. In Regulation 6 they are protected only if they are not shown to have lacked good faith. What is bad faith? It is difficult to envisage what degree of knowledge or suspicion on the part of the third party about the impropriety of the contract needs to be proved. This remains to be settled by judicial decision while there is no such difficulty in regard to section 8. This difficulty was recognised by the Jenkins Committee (1962) which expressly recommended that the third party “ should not by reason of his omission (so) to investigate be deemed not to have acted in good faith ”. Under Regulation 6 how can a man be in good faith who was told by some responsible person that the Board had not got the powers it was purporting to exercise, yet was so careless as not to investigate the matter? On the other hand, he could have actual knowledge of the terms of the limitation (e.g. a copy of the Memorandum and Articles might be shown to have been in his possession) but be in good faith because he failed to comprehend its meaning. And what if the limitation is one where the Board has the power if it gets the authority of a special resolution (which is a public document of which he gets constructive notice) and such a resolution is not passed. Even if he is in good faith (having no actual knowledge) is he safe in such a case?

Regulation 6 will be construed in the light of the language of the section. The Courts may attach significance to the fact that section 8 expressly preserves the liability of any director who was responsible to pay damages for any loss suffered by the company as a result of the ultra vires action. Regulation 6 does not and that liability will depend upon a judicial decision as to whether the Regulation in the context of section 8 effects an amendment of the general law which would make the director liable unless the Articles of Association of the Company indemnified him (subject to the limitations of section 200 of the 1963 Act). Section 8 also saves (as Regulation 6 does not) the right of any member of holder of debentures of a company seeking an injunction. The same question also arises on this point as in the case of the preceding paragraph.

Regulation 6 saves transactions in favour of third parties entered into by any organ of the company not-withstanding limitations imposed by the Memorandum and Articles. The Regulation defines " organ " as the Company's " board of directors or any person registered under these regulations as a person authorised to bind the company ". It does not seem to affect the position of a third party dealing with a person authorised by the articles provided he gets an authority of the existence of which he will have constructive notice, because it is a public document. While Regulation 4 provides for the publication of a notice of a return of a person so authorised, there is no provision making such a return obligatory. A person may be actually authorised whose name may never have been returned to the Companies Office as being so authorised.

Regulation 6 refers to the " board of directors ". It does not refer to one of several members of the board. If the director acts in a manner consistent with the usual authority of a single director the company would be bound but not if he acts outside the authority where the third party is put on enquiry and cannot make the assumption that everything is in order.

A company is bound by acts of individual directors:

(1) where it has been represented that the director had authority;

(2) the representation is by persons actually authorised; and

(3) the representation induced the contract.

What is the position of a third party dealing with an officer held out by the company as having authority, e.g. the managing director (but not registered under the Articles) and who purports to exercise a power a managing director would usually have but in this case does not have and the third party knows it or the circumstances put him on enquiry?

In such a case the Joint Committee feels that the Company may not be bound notwithstanding the Regulation. The Regulation does not appear to show a sufficient awareness of the applicability of the law of agency to the affairs of companies.

It is not clear that the definition of " organ " in the Regulation is intended to be exhaustive and to displace the existing law that those who express " the mind and will " of a company constitute an organ responsible for its actions. Lack of clarity on the point could have seriously confusing effects.

The Joint Committee is of opinion that the liabilities of a company for acts of its officers is a vast field and any amendment of the law thereto should be thoroughly studied, debated and be the subject of primary not secondary legislation."

The next item is No. 2, the operation of the penalty clause, and and again I give way to you, Senator Robinson, on this because you drew our attention to it and you have some professional experience of the problem which arises.

This is a much more simple point which relates to the very comprehensive nature of the changes made in these regulations. In fact, they affect almost all companies in a practical way by prescribing what must be contained on their headed note-paper, and further providing that companies would be fined for failure to comply with the regulations. These regulations were made on the 20th June, 1973, and came into effect ten days later, that is, on the 1st July. Regulation 9, which is the specific regulation with which we are concerned, provides that companies should have the following particulars on their letters and order forms :

(a) The place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered.

I think Deputy Dockrell would agree with me that very few companies would have their registered number on their headed notepaper. They are also required to provide:

(b) the address of the registered office;

(c) in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the word " limited " or " teoranta " as part of its name, the fact that it is a limited company.

(d) in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is so.

Regulation 12 provides that in the case of failure to comply with this regulation the company and every officer of the company who was in default would be liable to a fine not exceeding £100.

The objection which was taken by a number of people such as directors of companies was that they had only ten days to comply with this regulation to avoid the penalties imposed under regulation 12, and that this was virtually an impossible task as far as printing arrangements were concerned unless the person had anticipated this. Again, I think it is significant that this is secondary legislation by way of ministerial regulations which do not receive the advance publicity through debate in the Houses of the Oireachtas which an Act of Parliament would receive.

Therefore, unless it was specifically necessary to impose a penalty coming into operation when the regulation itself is in operation, there ought to be a certain period of time to make the necessary adaptations before the penalty is imposed. The Joint Committee might draw the attention of the Houses of the Oireachtas to the difference between penalties imposed under primary and secondary legislation and suggest that in secondary legislation, unless there is real urgency about it, there should be a waiting period before they become operative.

I think this is a desirable regulation. There is no objection——

No. There is no objection to having a penalty as such.

I fully agree the time is too short.

Then the draft report in outline is acceptable?

While I think we should dissent from the brevity of the time limit, we should not in any way imply that the principle is incorrect, because, obviously, the harmonisation of law in this respect is valid and very valuable.

Very desirable from every point of view.

Could I, as a layman, endorse what Senator Mary Robinson has said: if we had legislation going through both Houses of the Oireachtas it would get Press publicity and small companies would become aware of these regulations. Is there any system in the Department of Foreign Affairs or anywhere else whereby companies would get notification that such regulations were made? Small companies are not going to get copies of directives from Brussels.

There was an explanatory memorandum accompanying the regulations, but, again, small companies would not be aware of this.

It is important that these should be circulated to all companies.

Our criticism of these type of regulations is that they involve the imposition of a penalty with so little notice. There ought to be an obligation on the particular Department to notify those who would be affected and to say that within three months, or some other appropriate period, there would be a penalty for non-compliance.

Where small companies are concerned, one would expect they would be advised in these matters by their accountants. One expects a certain measure of initiative. I think the penalty must remain. Certainly the notice was very short last year, but that is just historical now. It is of interest in regard to Senator Robinson's point about secondary legislation, in that the time limit must be considered from here on.

We are only concerned here with the implementation of Community directives by means of Irish Government regulations on company law. We are not concerned with the general corpus of Irish company law. In regard to whether the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies should give notice to companies about what they are required to do, I am not sure that that would come within the ambit of this Committee and this report.

Surely they could give an opinion. Maybe it does not come within our terms, but some Department must be responsible, the Department of Finance——

Industry and Commerce.

They should notify the companies.

I think the Deputy has a very good point in this. I say this with all due respect to the people here: ignorance of the law is supposed to be no defence; yet there would undoubtedly be many even qualified people ignorant of this new strange sort of legislation, which has the force of legislation but yet does not seem to go through Parliament with the fanfare that a normal Bill would have. We really are striking out in an entirely new way here, and I think it is quite right that we should consider this as a practical point. After all, we are here to help our own citizens. We are also here to see that the EEC laws and regulations are brought in here. However, we do have a sort of obligation, perhaps not exactly a duty, to see that our own people, be they companies or solicitors or accountants, are given every chance to be made aware of these changes.

I would not object too strongly if we put in something to the effect that in cases where penalties are imposed——

That the particular Department should do their best to have the regulations drawn to the attention of those who would be affected.

I would accept that.

Are there any other views in connection with the incorporation of Directive 68/151 into the regulations? We have had a lot of discussion about this matter in our sub-committees. The very important question of the incorporation of the directive itself into our Irish instruments has been discussed.

This is very important. This is the only directive passed by the European Community affecting companies. There are several other draft directives which are being discussed. From the point of view of legal practitioners trying to advise individuals or companies on the effect of these regulations it is necessary to see the text of the directive. It is important to read the regulations in the light of the directive. It should be the normal practice to schedule any directives. This should be done in relation to a directive of this nature which is not all that long and which is of a very technical nature. The directive is necessary in order to understand the regulation. The joint committee should scrutinise all ministerial regulations to see whether in proper circumstances directives have been incorporated. It would probably be a bit premature to lay it down that all directives should be incorporated but this is one which should be incorporated. The general rule should be that European Community directives which are passed in the future should be incorporated in the ministerial regulations which implement their operation whenever possible. The joint committee should not lay down that this should always be done. There may be technical directives.

There could be documentation about the nomenclature of bananas.

This is absolutely necessary. In the long run it is not going to be very much extra trouble. In many cases if the directive is printed there it will give the background which will make the regulation understandable. The regulation can then be made so that those to whom it applies will know what it is all about.

I should point out that we touched on another aspect of this in the sub-committee. In one case the Department concerned did their job by saying " Directive No. so-and-so shall be operative in Ireland ". We cannot accept that either. What we said in the draft report meets the situation. We indicated that we hope that the detailed recommendations——

People are seeking information and they should be able to get it as expeditiously as possible. The logical way to get it is to have it appended in full to the legislation.

They should not have to dig it out.

The general question will have to be carefully considered.

There was considerable variation in procedure including variations in documents I signed myself.

We are dealing with two obscure documents—European Directives and Ministerial regulations.

In the case of regulations, if we are completely dissatisfied we would have an obligation to recommend to the Dáil and the Seanad that they be annulled. I take it we are not doing that in this case?

There is fairly widespread dissatisfaction with these particular regulations. There is a good deal of pressure from various bodies on the Department of Industry and Commerce to reconsider this whole procedure. The function of the joint committee should be to draw attention to these regulations, in the critical way we have done, and then to recommend that as soon as possible another mode of implementation of the directives should be considered by the Department. We should not use our maximum power of recommending annulment in this case. We should reserve that for cases in which there is a clear injustice or conflict.

We are voicing criticism and indicating that the matter should be dealt with by way of a new regulation.

The pressure is for a new series of regulations or a new Bill in implementing this particular directive and incorporating it. I would like to see an amendment of these ministerial regulations in the not-too-distant future.

We will regard ourselves as having had a preliminary look at this draft report, I will now bring it back to the Oireachtas sub-committee where it will be put into final form. When it has the committee's final approval it will be submitted to both Houses.

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