The next report is the draft report on the Council proposal for a Council Directive on Equal Treatment for Men and Women Workers. Again this was the subject of very close scrutiny in sub-committee. We have had a fairly comprehensive measure of agreement on what is said here. The only one item of significance to which I should like to draw members' attention is that we are recommending that in our view the social security provision should be omitted from the proposed Directive and that the Commission should put forward separate proposals showing in greater detail how the adoption of existing social security systems to meet the aims of the Social Action Programme might proceed. I think that is a sensible proposal.
Proposal for a Council Directive on Equal Treatment for Men and Women Workers.
Chairman
We went into this in some detail. It will be clear that our social welfare payments are somewhat ahead of those of others.
Paragraphs 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
May I raise a few points on paragraph 5? On page 4, line 3:
Of the 833 secondary, vocational, community and comprehensive schools in the country 372 are already co-educational.
I would suggest that a breakdown of that figure should be given in the report. I suspect that there are very few secondary schools in that figure. These are mostly vocational schools and community schools. The figure would give a very distorted picture if there was not co-education for virtually everyone.
The other point I should like to make is as follows:
The Joint Committee believes that as access to all jobs in all sectors becomes available to women the educational system is likely to respond and this may well lead to more co-educational schools emerging.
I would suggest that this is too vague a supposition. The educational system must lead. This implies that one will get co-educational schooling provided there is access to jobs. I would suggest that the Committee might express a view that there devolves on the educational system as well a responsibility of changing their attitude in relation to co-education. I know it is a very difficult area.
Chairman
Could we use the words "should respond"?
Yes.
Chairman
This may well lead to further discussion.
We discussed this in some detail in sub-committee. The feeling then was that those who were involved in the educational system were least likely to put that into practice. If that were left to Departmental interests there would be a greater tendency towards co-education. Those actively involved in the field were less inclined to agree.
Chairman
The words "should respond" will improve the situation.
Yes, it would.
Chairman
In the pages of the report there could be a break-up of that figure of 372.
It would be dangerous to suggest, as is stated in the final sentence of paragraph 5, that:
These courses presumably do not conflict with the general policy of the Commission's proposals although they are not open to or suitable for men.
That is a bit sweeping because as far as I know the AnCO courses——
Chairman
I know.
"These courses presumably do not conflict with the general policy of the Commission's proposals." I would put a full-stop there and delete "although they are not open to or suitable for men". The courses are upholstery and shorthand and typing. Of course, they are jointly open.
Chairman
Agreed.
I would also, as a final point, refer to the sentence in paragraph 6 on the bottom of page 4.
For example the prohibition of employing women during certain hours in some trades has the effect of excluding them from shift-work and so reducing their employment opportunities.
Chairman
The emphasis is wrong.
Yes. I must confess——
Is it not a factual statement?
I would be inclined to put in that there is no great disagreement in relation to women being excluded from shift-work. There is a very considerable body of thought that holds the view that because women are not allowed to do certain late-evening shifts in industry they cannot therefore earn money; they cannot get shift-work. On the other hand, there is a very traditional body of thought which thinks that women should not do any nightwork at all.
Chairman
You realise we are just giving an example of the Commission's view?
Yes.
Chairman
We are not saying that it is our view here.
Paragraph 5 amended as follows:
(1) In the third sub-paragraph to delete ‘372' and substitute "125 secondary, 218 vocational, 15 community and 14 comprehensive".
(2) In the third sub-paragraph to delete "is likely to" and substitute "should".
(3) In the final sub-paragraph to delete "although they are not open to or suitable for men".
Paragraph 5, as amended, agreed to.
Paragraph 6 agreed to.
The last point is in the second sub-paragraph of paragraph 7:
By analogy with the Anti-Discrimination Pay Act, 1974 it would seem that this provision can be readily implemented in regard to access to employment, promotion and dismissals by enabling an aggrieved person to complain to the Labour Court.
I think the Equal Pay Commissioner could be involved there because he is directly involved in that area of anti-discrimination in pay. It should go to him first rather than to the Labour Court.
Chairman
An aggrieved person would have access to the Equal Pay Commissioner.
And to the Labour Court?
Chairman
Yes.
It will require some body being set up to investigate complaints.
It is a good report and an important one.
Chairman
Paragraph 7 amended by the insertion in the second sub-paragraph of "Equal Pay Commissioner and the" before "Labour Court".
Paragraph 7, as amended, agreed to.
Draft report, as amended, agreed to.
Ordered: To report accordingly.