This is a very important draft report, and as I said on an earlier occasion, perhaps the most important task we can be performing at this stage is to make suggestions to the next Dáil and Seanad about the character, function and work of this Committee, based on our experience. So far we have considered this matter fully in private session but, now that we have the final draft report before us we will consider it, in public. The contents of the draft report are well known to all and, we are more or less agreed, represent a consensus.
Functions and Work of Joint Committee.
Could I suggest just a few relatively minor amendments and textural suggestions? We say on page 1 " The present Joint Committee will come to an end on the dissolution of the present Dáil." It might be useful to put in as an Appendix to the draft report the list of membership of the Joint Committee. It is correctly to be signed by the Chairman but the full membership of the Committee should be stated in the proposed Appendix. None of us knows what the will of the people is going to be and how it will be expressed. It seems desirable that this be seen by whatever Government may be, the existing one or any other, as being the report of the full Committee.
There is no reason why the names of members of the Committee should not be appended immediately after my name.
Yes.
We want some technical arrangement which will incorporate all the members in the endorsement of the report.
Yes. While we talk about the complement of staff, because of the fact that we were well into 1975 before we resolved this difficulty we should in the proposed Appendix to the draft report state what our present complement is. This is a matter of public record and the outcome of our deliberations should be known. The draft report itself refers to one of the areas of difficulty at the inception of the Committee regarding the question of what complement of staff should service the Committee and what back-up facilities and assistance should be made available to it by Government Departments.
That is a very sensible suggestion.
There is another reference in the draft report which may be misunderstood in some way. The Joint Committee operates through four sub-committees, which, meeting in private, examine proposals and instruments, in the first instance, study memoranda and so on. While the meeting today is a public meeting, the private meetings should be put in the context that they were in private largely for matters of administrative convenience rather than deliberate design to meet in private.
Sub-committees meet in private to enable people who are not members of the Committee to speak freely.
In that context, perhaps we should say why, because otherwise people will say that the bulk of the work of the Committee occurs in private, behind closed doors.
As it reads, it admits that we meet in private for very good reasons. We have private organisations coming before us, and official experts can talk much more freely in private and can give us background information and so on which otherwise would not be available to us.
If that were put in that context in the draft report it would be of some importance. It is an important document, the result of four years of deliberations by the Committee. A sentence incorporating what has been said could be of use in the draft report.
A report of this discussion will be available and so the Deputy's views will be on record. Will the Deputy be satisfied with that?
I am quite satisfied.
Sections 1 to 4 inclusive, agreed to.
I have here an amendment from Senator Robinson, who is engaged in the Seanad. I am sure the Senator would like us to consider her amendment, so I will take the liberty of proposing it on her behalf. I move the following amendment on behalf of Senator Robinson:
In page 7 to add the following new paragraph to section 5:—
" The Joint Committee also considers it important that the views of the Members of the present Dáil and Seanad on the role and work of the Joint Committee should be on record. Accordingly it recommends that a debate be held in each House on this report."
There are a few ways of looking at that. I have no particular objection to the amendment. If Members of the Committee would like, we can adopt it. One aspect is that, as we are trying to lay down guidelines for the next Dáil and Seanad, a great deal cannot be gained by this Dáil and Seanad debating the matter. On the other hand, there might be something to be said for it. I have an open mind on it.
They will not discuss it anyway.
It is an idle exercise that they discuss it. On Senator Robinson's behalf I will withdraw the amendment, without her permission.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 5 to 8 inclusive, agreed to.
Draft report amended by the addition of an Appendix as follows:
" APPENDIX
MEMBERS OF JOINT COMMITTEE
|
DÁIL MEMBERS |
SEANAD MEMBERS |
|
Charles J. Haughey (Chairman) |
John Boland |
|
Maurice Dockrell (Vice-Chairman) |
Alexis FitzGerald |
|
Edward Collins |
Michael D. Higgins |
|
*Donal Creed |
Mark Killilea (from 15 May, 1974) 1 |
|
Barry Desmond |
*Brian Lenihan |
|
* Thomas Dunne (to 5 January, 1977) 2 |
Kevin O'Callaghan (to 24 January, 1974) 1 |
|
John G. Esmonde |
Mary T. W. Robinson |
|
Jackie Fahey |
Eoin Ryan |
|
Gene Fitzgerald |
*Michael B. Yeats |
|
Seán Flanagan |
|
|
*James Gibbons |
|
|
*Michael Herbert |
|
|
*Liam Kavanagh |
|
|
*Gerald L'Estrange (from 2 February, 1977) 3 |
|
|
*Charles B. McDonald |
|
|
*Thomas Nolan |
|
|
Michael O'Kennedy |
|
|
Myles Staunton |
|
|
*David Thornley |
* Member of European Parliament.
1 Kevin O'Callaghan, who died on 24 January, 1974, was replaced by Mark Killilea, as from 15 May, 1974.
2 Thomas Dunne resigned as a Member of the European Parliament as from 5 January, 1977.
3 Gerald L'Estrange was designated a Member of the European Parliament as from 2 February, 1977.
|
STAFF OF JOINT COMMITTEE |
|
|
1 Clerk |
|
|
1 Assistant Clerk |
|
|
2 Higher Executive Officers |
|
|
1 Clerical Assistant " |
The draft report is quite objective: it gives our views very reasonably. It should be of value to the incoming Houses and to the incoming Government.
Draft report, as amended, agreed to.
Ordered: To report accordingly.
The Committee went into private session at 5.20 p.m.
The Committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m.