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Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 1978

Teaching of Languages in the Community.

I would prefer if the report on languages was dealt with first because the Sub-Committee felt it was more important. We felt it was so important that we called for a special debate in each House on this matter. The Sub-Committee examined a communication sent by the Commission to the Council on 22 June 1978 on the subject of teaching of languages in the Community. The idea is that the Community would help national programmes in this area. The Sub-Committee were aware that this matter will be considered at the next meeting of the Council of the Ministers of Education to be held on 27 November. The first proposal put forward by the Commission dealt with the initial training of teachers to ensure that trainee language teachers would spend a period of study in the country of the language which they intend to teach. The other proposals related to the continuing training of teachers, early foreign language teaching, and the mobility and exchange of students.

The Sub-Committee noted that the Commission laid stress on the development of greater understanding among the peoples of the Community and we endorsed the importance of an ability to communicate through a second Community language. We felt that this was important for Ireland because of our increasing contacts and trade with the Continent since our accession to the Community. We noted that although there had been efforts made here to make up for the apparent neglect of the past much remained to be done. We pointed out that the range of choice of languages available to secondary school students left much to be desired and we felt it was patently unsatisfactory that there were still no oral tests for secondary students taking public examinations.

The Sub-Committee believed that a Community involvement in the teaching of languages would be very much in Ireland's interest and we wanted an enthusiastic response to that. We believed it would not be unreasonable in the case of Ireland, because of our disadvantages in this area and the ground we must catch up on, that the Community contribution be made on the basis of a 70 or 75 per cent meeting of the costs rather than 50 per cent from the Community and 50 per cent from ourselves. We believe we have a strong case for special tratment. We noted that the Commission want to ensure that both students and practising teachers would spend a period in the country the language of which they propose to actually teach. We want to go further—strong submissions on this score were made to us by ASTI—and seek a mutual recognition of the qualification of teachers so that our teachers of English could establish themselves as teachers of English in other Member States. In fact, there should be a great potential for them as teachers of English. At present they must go through a system of qualifying on examination in places like France and Germany instead of having the advantage of national teachers of the English language in those countries.

We felt this was a very important area for Ireland. We also felt that the improved mobility of teachers and students was important for cultural reasons and for trade and commerce. For those reasons we inserted a paragraph seeking a debate on this subject in each House. I would be prepared to move this in the Seanad in due course, if that is the view of the Joint Committee.

I should like to support Senator Robinson. One of my own special interests has been languages as a teacher of foreign languages and as a trainer of teachers of foreign languages. Before we entered the EEC I was instrumental in setting up a concern known as "Executives for Europe" to try to train people in French, German and Spanish at crash courses at night. The vast majority of the students attending those courses were men. The history of the teaching of languages in our schools, particularly boys' schools, has been very bad. There has been great apathy about this matter. Those men, after a day's work, went to learn languages on very intensive crash courses. They tried to fit such courses into their schedule and found it extremely difficult to do so.

The incentive such men had for embarking on such courses was that they found that their prestige in the business world in European countries was a lot less when it was discovered that they could speak only English and Irish. We should welcome the interest of the Commission in this area because we have such a bad record. We should pursue actively any possible help that can be got to redress our situation. It is because I feel so strongly about this that I was disappointed at the attitude of the representatives of the Department of Education who addressed the Sub-Committee. An apathy which has existed in the Department in this area is reflected in the fact that the dispute on oral language testing has been allowed to continue. That is an incredible situation. It is incredible that the means of communication are not tested orally. I hope the debate will take place in the Seanad so that we can highlight the urgency that should be attached to this problem.

Does anybody else wish to comment?

We all agree on the importance of language and the teaching of language. I am a little disappointed that the Sub-Committee did not make some mention of the Irish language in this report. I would hate to see a situation developing in which the teaching of the Irish language might become, shall we say, downgraded in any way by special concessions being given to the teaching of foreign languages. I am fully in favour of the concessions for teaching European languages, but the teaching of languages as a whole is what is at issue here and a report coming from this Sub-Committee which does not mention that surprises me.

I do not think that that is the issue here. We are not talking about teaching Japanese; we are talking about the teaching of modern continental languages in a European context. For example, one is not going to communicate with the Belgians in Irish, or does Senator Mulcahy think we should?

The Irish language is part of the European language cultural system. When we produce a report devoting attention to encouraging the teaching of language the absence of a mention even of the Irish language is noteworthy.

I think Senator Mulcahy has mistaken both the nature of the European Commission's communication and the nature of the task of the Sub-Committee—it is the teaching of foreign European languages. Of its essence Irish is not a foreign language. For the Senator's information we did, in the Sub-Committee, consider the question of the teaching of foreign languages in primary schools. We noted that, because of the importance of the Irish language in the primary school system and because children are therefore coping with two languages, there is an additional potential problem though we would also like to see the development of language in the primary school system. To that extent we did discuss the matter. This report is about the teaching of foreign languages and mobility of people who will communicate in a foreign language. We were of the view that Ireland is backward in communicating in foreign languages with foreigners in their own country who will be speaking this language.

Does that explanation satisfy the Senator?

Yes, I am delighted to hear that it was mentioned and discussed.

I presume the reverse would apply to nationals of other EEC countries if they wanted to come to learn the Irish language here——

If they wanted to teach Irish in Europe. Can I take it then that the report is adopted? Part of this report raises the question of having its subject matter raised in both Houses of the Oireachtas. Have we made arrangements about the raising of it? Who will move it and speak to it? We should do that as part of our work here.

Certainly I would be prepared to move that the report be debated in the Seanad.

There is another report requested for debate already. It is a question of arranging priorities with regard to which should come first. Where is that decision made?

A lot of it is dependent, from a practical point of view, on having whatever Minister would be available first.

It is from the time the motion is put down that the time runs.

Is there anybody from the Dáil prepared to move that this be debated there, or do we want to have it raised in the Seanad only?

I should like to raise the question of whether it should be debated—I know it is extremely important—but what is one going to debate?

With respect, Mr. Chairman, I think we have passed that point.

I do not think so.

I think we have passed that in so far as we have adopted the report.

The problem in the Dáil is the pressure of work.

Surely the issue is that if this Joint Committee is to sustain the kind of high-powered relevance I believe it has had since the inception of this Oireachtas we should simply have it on the record of the Dáil that the matter was raised. Even to get half an hour's debate in the Dáil subject to the reservations that some people like Senator Mulcahy may have, and here I think it is a question of interpretation rather than content—to get a simple half-hour provision for a debate, say, with agreed speakers on either side of the House, since it is an all-Party Committee who have reached unanimous agreement on it, should be sufficient. Surely it should not be too difficult to seek a time provision for debate of 20 or 30 minutes? My interpretation of it would be that certainly we should seek a debate on that kind of understanding, that we would not be seeking, say, a half day's debate on the teaching of languages.

Might I suggest that it would be ill-advised on our part to seek a debate on this issue in both Houses? Surely if the matter is debated in one House we will have achieved our object. I think we would be defeating ourselves by seeking a debate in both Houses, when one would be merely a repetition of the other.

It is a personal view only but I think if we were to raise a number of these reports in the Dáil we could very easily wear out our welcome because of the pressure of business there.

Yes, indeed. The Seanad is an obvious Chamber, under-utilised at present, for debate on a number of these reports. I do not think we should be out-wearing our welcome in the Dáil.

What is done in the Dáil is a matter for the Members of the Dáil. The arrangement in the Seanad at present is on a temporary basis and will operate up to the end of this year. We are trying it out on that basis. I would urge the Joint Committee to avoid the temptation to refer virtually every report to the Seanad. The danger is that if we do get cluttered up with discussing reports probably the arrangement would be reviewed and we might feel we had taken on more than we could handle. Whereas there is certainly a very strong case for some reports being debated we should avoid the temptation of referring every report though there may be a tendency to do so.

I accept Senator's Ryan's point. I would repeat my view that I see no point in having these reports debated in both Houses unless they are of major importance.

I take it we are deciding now to have the matter raised in the Seanad and not in the Dáil? Is that agreed?

Paragraphs 1 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.

PARAGRAPH 8.

I move:

In paragraph 8, line 3, to delete "each House" and to substitute "Seanad Éireann"; to delete lines 5 and 6 and to substitute ‘Order of Seanad Éireann of 3rd May, 1978".

Amendment agreed to.
Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.
Paragraph 9 agreed to.
Draft Report, as amended agreed to.
Ordered: To report accordingly.
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