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Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 1978

Situation in the Milk Sector.

I will deal briefly with the salient points of the report. It deals with the Commission's general assessment of the present situation in the milk sector. This is a matter of the utmost importance for this country. There have been a number of attempts in recent years to correct the imbalance in the milk sector of the Community market. The Commission's communication with which this report deals sets out the current thinking of the Commission on the problem. The Commission have not yet put forward proposals for legislation but we see their communication as foreshadowing the proposals that they may put forward as part of the 1979-80 price package.

In the draft report the Sub-Committee set out the situation in the milk sector as revealed by the Commission's analysis. Production is increasing at an annual rate of 1.7 per cent while consumption at the same time remains static. A number of measures have already been taken to deal with this situation and these measures are referred to in the report. Also in the report is a summary of the kind of measures which the Commission are contemplating and there is an indication of the Community's thinking on the cut-back on production. The report also sets out the special position of the dairy industry in this country and argues that this special position requires that Ireland be given special treatment in any restrictive measures being adopted. The productivity of Irish dairy farmers still lags considerably behind that of their counterparts elsewhere in the Community. An objective of the Treaty of Rome is to increase agricultural productivity; therefore it is only equitable that there be no cut-back as far as this country is concerned until such time as productivity here approaches the standard obtaining on the Continent at present. Therefore, responsibility for the present situation cannot be laid at Ireland's door. We are responsible for only a minute percentage of the Community's milk production and it cannot be said that we have been relying excessively on intervention.

The report, however, does not seek to ignore the problem from the Community's standpoint but it makes the point that the principle of Community preference should be fully recognised. The report states that we are opposed to New Zealand, for example, having access to the British market for cheddar cheese under any GATT arrangement. We are also insisting that there be a cutback in New Zealand exports of butter to the United Kingdom after 1980. We ask that there be a levy on imports of feeding stuffs. Much of the present problem is caused largely by the broiler chicken type of production which goes on in small Continental farms which have access to the cheap imported feeding stuffs.

We are in favour of measures to increase consumption and to divert more milk products into the food aid programme. Because of the desire to see Irish production expand we are suspicious of the proposal to provide income aids for small farmers forced out of milk production. Likewise we are totally opposed to any prohibition of investment being applied to this country. The Chairman, as a member of the Agricultural Sub-Committee, will know that we dealt very exhaustively with all aspects of the milk sector and we had a wide-ranging and full discussion on it. We had various interested farming organisations and representatives from other areas and from the Department of Agriculture at that meeting. In passing, I would like to thank the organisations and the other interested bodies who assisted us in the preparation of this report. I recommend the adoption of this report to the Committee.

Thank you, Deputy Noonan.

I would like to compliment Deputy Noonan and indeed all the members of the Sub-Committee for the very close consideration which they have given this vitally important matter. We should, in accordance with the report, reject any steps to be taken by the Commission which would in any way interfere with the Irish dairy industry. The contribution of the Irish dairy industry to the national economy is very substantial and those of us who represent rural constituencies are very well aware of this.

As I have said on Sub-Committees elsewhere, there is no appearance of common sense or intelligence on the part of the Commission when they continue to allow imports from New Zealand. We should be very strong in our representations to see that steps will be taken to cut out these imports completely. It would be most regrettable if our farmers, who are engaged in the dairy industry and who have built up their herds and have some of the finest herds that this country has ever had, should have to restrict production or should have their incomes interfered with in any way as a result of action taken by the Commission while, at the same time, substantial privileges are to be enjoyed by New Zealand farmers. That does not make sense and I am glad Deputy Noonan referred to that.

We in this country must be allowed to continue our dairy industry. Many of our farmers depend on it. The entire economy depends on it. I am glad to welcome the report which Deputy Noonan has, very eloquently and with a great deal of detail and research, presented to us. It certainly meets the case and is the expressed opinion of all of us around this table because we are all very much concerned about the matter. I feel that his report should be adopted while at the same time those who are responsible for any form of negotiations between this country and the EEC should repeat and continue to repeat the terms outlined in Deputy Noonan's report. It meets with our approval and I sincerely hope it will be unanimously adopted here by this Committee.

Deputy Leonard

I second the proposals set out in the report.

Paragraphs 1 to 40, inclusive, agreed to.

NEW PARAGRAPH.

I want to refer to the amendment that I have circulated. I move:

After paragraph 40 to insert a new paragraph as follows:

"Debate in the Dáil

41. In view of the importance of milk production in the Irish economy the Joint Committee requests that a debate on this report take place in Dáil Éireann. In this connection attention is drawn to the Order of Dáil Éireann of 11 October 1978. The Committee considers that the proposed debate should be held as soon as possible so that the views of the House can be made known before any decision is taken by the Council of Ministers."

We are very fortunate to have got this opportunity to discuss this matter at the very time when the Members of this Joint Committee may find it useful and helpful and when people have to negotiate in Government on behalf of the country on the issues involved here. I think that the Members generally will agree that this, as the Chairman of the Sub-Committee has said, is a very serious national issue of very great importance to the dairy industry of this country. It is an issue that needs to be fully ventilated and publicly discussed and we should avail ourselves of the opportunity to seek to ventilate it in the House and to inform the House and the country of the seriousness of these issues.

I remember quite distinctly a time when surpluses were much bigger than they are today. A very similar set of proposals came before the Council of Ministers and before discussions ended—and it took some months to end them—we came away with a price increase that was reasonably satisfactory. We came away having rejected all of the proposals bar a very small levy and we subsequently got back most of that for promotional and other very useful purposes in the dairy industry. If the same resistance is put up again I hope we will have the same result and that there will be a recognition that exceptions should be made in our case at least where we are really only starting to develop the dairying industry, where the potential is still enormous and where we are still so far behind the level of production and productivity in other Member States. We have a great case to make but a public discussion would help to make it that much better.

Do you not think, Mr. Chairman, that your amendment will be welcomed by the Minister for Agriculture and, indeed, by the officers in the Department of Agriculture because, as a result of a debate on this important matter which will clearly express the views of dairy farmers and indeed of all farming organisations, the hand of the Minister will clearly be strengthened in dealing with this matter in Brussels?

I formally oppose the amendment for the reasons I have stated when I was speaking earlier. What we have before us are only proposals and as yet we have no specific proposals for the farm price package either in the milk sector or elsewhere for 1979-1980. Since we have no specific proposals I cannot see any useful purpose in having a debate in the Dáil at present. I formally oppose this amendment.

That is a direct negative.

Does Deputy Noonan not think that, if there was a debate on this vitally important issue, proposals may emerge in a more modified form? As a result of the strong expressions of opinion on this matter on behalf of the dairy farmers the proposals which might be drafted might not be so drastic and might be modified as a result of whatever debate we might have in the House.

There is no price package put forward yet and therefore we would be discussing something unknown. Until such time as we have something specific before us I do not see any useful purpose in having a debate in the Dáil.

I trust that there will be an opportunity to discuss the contents of the report. The Estimates are due any day now and there is an Adjournment Debate due next week. Therefore, having the report, which, as Deputy Noonan says, is really largely a set of options at this stage, we are in a position to highlight our views as expressed in the report on those occasions and those particular debates at that time.

Deputy Leonard

We have discussed this and we are in agreement with the report. There is an opportunity for any person who wishes to discuss it during the Estimates debate.

The Chairman had experience for a number of years of negotiating on agriculture in Brussels. He was quite successful but he did not have Dáil debates before going to Brussels. We always feel that the right things are said in those debates but at the moment there are very strong views supporting the consumer. Does the Chairman not think that the outcome of the type of debate he has in mind might not be very helpful to our negotiator? There would be some risk in this which we have not taken before. I do not think the Minister lacks knowledge of what we really want. We have been putting those views again and again and it might not be so helpful to have this matter debated in the Dáil, particularly, as Deputy Noonan has said, when we have not the real meat of the proposals and the final package may not be so closely related to what we have.

I fully accept the sincerity of the opinions expressed in relation to this amendment. I have been asked just now what my opinion was about all this, having regard to my experience. We have not had debates but we never had this agreement. It occurred to me that it might be a good thing to ventilate our feelings. It was the unanimous feeling of all the Members of the Sub-Committee that the proposals contained in the document we received should be rejected out of hand.

It was always a help to me when going to Brussels to have the maximum amount of pressure from wherever it came, which I was never resentful of. I always felt it helped me because when there is public discussion and feelings expressed here they are in Brussels as soon as they are in print, because it is their job to find out what the position is in the Member States. I regarded it as a great help, but I am not fixed on this amendment. If the Members of the Committee feel we should not go ahead with it I do not want particularly to press it. I felt we might lose an opportunity by not doing this. We have got the ideas the Commission have at present, which I am quite sure will be reflected in the price proposals that I believe by now are formulated. They normally come about the middle of December but I believe they have been held back to see what the outcome of the Summit was. The general feeling seems to be in favour of not having a debate so I will not press the amendment.

It might not be the best time to have a general debate when one considers the line that Jim Callaghan seems to be taking and we should let the Minister have as much flexibility as possible in dealing with the situation. Obviously a hard line will have to be taken.

I thought this would be a time to hit Mr. Callaghan publicly.

It is a matter for negotiation, not a matter for public bashing.

Of course, the final responsibility will be with the Minister. No Minister with any sense will commit himself before or during his negotiations. That is not to say that he could not hear the views of people concerned in advance of going to Brussels. It appears to be the majority view that we should not have a debate and I will not press the amendment.

What is the position in the debate? Can the Minister not speak?

He could say anything he liked, but he might feel that the right thing would be to say very little and perhaps voice his determination not to accept a lot of these things before going. That would be up to the Minister.

It seems to me that he could not intervene.

If that is the majority view I withdraw the amendment.

Does the Chairman not think that we are losing an opportunity on this and that we would be very helpful to the Minister? It would put him in a position to be able to say that this matter was fully debated in his Parliament and all parties had expressed an opinion on it. There would be no question of a variety of views as we would all be of the same opinion. Is the Chairman quite convinced that the Committee are not losing a golden opportunity of highlighting what will eventually be a grave injustice detrimental to the Irish dairy industry? Does he not think that a stitch in time could probably save nine? I feel that the Minister would be in a stronger position if he could say that farming organisations, this Committee and Parliament were 100 per cent behind him.

I have mixed feelings about this matter. I know that in some Parliaments midway through the negotiations they have had debates. I have to admit that I resented Ministers coming to the Council of Ministers saying their hands were tied, that the particular matter had been discussed in Parliament and that if they agreed to it they would have to do it ad referendum. That is not negotiating. It is a wrong way for people to go to the table. I thought it would be a good thing for the Minister to be seen publicly to have a lot of pressure behind him.

Do the two forthcoming debates not offer a fair opportunity for those who want to put positively the points which have been made?

I accept that view, which appears to be held generally.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Paragraph 41 agreed to.
Draft Report agreed to.
Ordered: To report accordingly.
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