Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 1979

European Community (Enlargement).

Chairman

Item 4 is a motion in the name of Deputy Quinn on the accession of Greece, Spain and Portugal to the European Communities. Before calling on Deputy Quinn to move the motion I should like to tell the Committee that I have considered whether it is within our terms of reference to consider the implications of the accession of Greece, Spain and Portugal. In the case of each applicant country the Commission has delivered opinions, as required under the Treaty, and the Council has taken decisions in favour of the applicants. These opinions and decisions constitute acts of the institutions of the Community and, as such, they can be considered by the Joint Committee. Therefore, Deputy Quinn's motion is in order.

Of course, it is a matter entirely for this Committee whether the Deputy's motion is accepted. If the motion is accepted I suggest we agree on how exactly the matter is to be handled. Offhand, I would be inclined to say it would not be appropriate to refer the question to one of our Sub-Committees. It should be dealt with in the full Joint Committee. Incidentally, I understand that the accession treaty with Greece is likely to be signed next June. I call on Deputy Quinn to move the motion.

Deputy Quinn

I move:

That the Joint Committee examine the implications for Ireland of the accession to the European Economic Communities of Greece, Spain and Portugal.

I am grateful for your introductory remarks which have clarified a number of points with which I concur. In so far as the Commission have seen fit to issue an opinion, the Committee should respond to that published opinion. Inevitably there will be debates in both Houses on amendment of the Treaty or on a new treaty and it is the responsibility of this Committee to draft an initial document that would inform those debates. I have discussed it with my party colleagues and we felt it would be of benefit to the workings of democracy if this specialist Committee, with their collective expertise, could arrive at an opinion that could serve as background information for any debate that may take place in the Houses, having regard to all the constraints and so on that confine our Committee and specifically because Greece will be the first State whose entry into the enlarged Community will be discussed in both Houses of the Oireachtas. It would be of use, therefore, if there was a debate within our own Committee and if such a debate would involve discussions with officials from the Commission who may elaborate on the Commission's opinion and, secondly, discussion with officials from our own various Government Departments with regard to how the accession of Greece may affect funds which are of direct interest to this Committee i.e. the Regional, Social and CAP Funds. Finally, the representatives of the Republic of Greece who are resident in this country may wish to respond or answer questions that we may ask. So, without wishing to delay any further, I believe there is a positive and constructive role for this Committee in looking at this matter within the terms of reference of the opinion published by the Commission, as the Chairman has pointed out.

Chairman

Thanks, Deputy. I think all of us would agree that this is a matter of considerable importance to the country as a whole and if we can collect the sort of information that it is necessary to have we should do it. I do not know how long that will take. It might take a month or two. If that is so, I think we should take the necessary time and then bring it before one of these monthly meetings.

Senator Brugha

As a visitor and a member of the European Parliament, I would agree with what Deputy Quinn has said. It is important that all the implications of membership of new Member States should be studied by the Committee representing both Houses of the Oireachtas here and that it should be through that means that it is possible to inform the Dáil and Seanad of the implications involved. I am in favour of the motion.

Deputy Woods

I would also like to support the motion which I think will be very valuable, particularly in relation to Greece because it is the most imminent accession. I know that people often have misinformed notions about the effect, beneficial or otherwise, of Greece joining the EEC. I think it would be very valuable to work out the implications here in some detail through this Committee.

Senator Mulcahy

I also would like to support the motion and in doing so perhaps to remind the Committee that the advent of EMS as a working system seems to be finally achieved, and I would hate to become an enlarged Community and have to go through the sort of discussion that has taken place to bring about a satisfactory conclusion to the EMS negotiations, or to open it up again. Countries that would be involved in an enlarged Community should come into a system that they would have to accept on entering. Obviously some concessions could be given but they would have to buy into the EMS as it is. This is the time to do it. I support the view that an examination should be carried out.

Deputy O. J. Flanagan

Arising from what Senator Mulcahy has said, may I ask a question about likely concessions to be given to an applicant State such as Greece? Is it likely that whatever concessions will be given will be at the expense of the member states—at our expense? Will we find ourselves worse off, getting less from the Regional Fund or any similar fund, despite the fact that we are getting far too little at present to run our economy as soundly as we would like to? If we have to take less by Greece coming in, less still by Portugal coming and less again by Spain coming in, surely Deputy Quinn has a very good point that this must be investigated closely in every detail. We should have before us the economic position of Greece so that we can see whether Greece will be an asset or a liability to the Community. If Greece is to be a liability will the liability be at our expense?

Chairman

That is the sort of information we would hope to collect in the course of the work leading to a discussion at a full Joint Committee meeting. It has been discussed already and I think an assurance has been given that, for instance, the money for the CAP would be increased to take care of the accession of countries like this that would be likely to demand assistance by way of grant aid and one thing or another. Anyway, there is not much point in opening the discussion now.

Deputy O. J. Flanagan

Portugal does not arise. We are going to deal with Greece only.

Deputy Quinn

Initially with Greece.

Chairman

The motion would involve three, but Greece is the urgent one because its accession treaty is likely to be signed in June.

Senator Brugha

Perhaps I might give Deputy Flanagan some information on that, being a member of the Greek EEC Committee and the External Economics Committee. One of the questions that this Committee might examine at a later stage—when all the data has been furnished—is that the Commission have set out, in the case of Greece, global figures of the cost but in no case have they specified from where the money is to come. That is a salient point at which this Committee could look subsequently.

Senator Hussey

I might be permitted a word here. In any discussion on consideration of the implications of accession of the three new countries to the EEC, I hope there will be a section devoted to the whole position of women in those three countries. It is notable that in the three countries applying for membership the position of women is as bad if not worse than that of Irish women. Irish women find themselves the weakest members of the Community in terms of economic strength and legal protection. I believe there has been some study of the laws affecting women in the three countries. I am not at all happy with what I find and feel there will be grave implications for Irish women in the accession of so many other disadvantaged women. Yet my inclination is to help them and get them in. Therefore, I would make a plea for a whole section being devoted to discussion of this problem.

Senator Harney

Is it the intention that one of the Sub-Committees will examine the implications and prepare a report?

Chairman

No, I was hoping that we would decide against that, that we would have a full-blown discussion here. Indeed, it might necessitate either a visit to Brussels, or a visit to some Commission officials here. It is the sort of way in which we might go about collecting such information.

Deputy Quinn

On the point of actual procedure of the Committee, I would strongly recommend, because of the comprehensive nature of the topic, that it be dealt with in full Committee rather than in Sub-Committee but that the Committee would feel free initially to study the Commission documents and, if needs be, to invite members from the Commission, either from Dublin or directly from Brussels, to elaborate on points on which we have questions. Secondly, the Committee should feel free to invite our own people who have participated in the negotiations as part of the Nine on the proposals that have been agreed now with the Republic of Greece. Finally—to take up Senator's Hussey's point—they should be able to invite the energetic and enthusiastic Ambassador of Greece and his staff resident in Dublin, to come to this Committee and perhaps answer some direct questions which would arise from our joint discussions with both Irish and Commission officials on the subject, and we would proceed country by country as the timetable would suggest.

Senator Mulcahy

I would agree with that suggestion. But the difficulty of taking it in full Committee is that we would do so under the eyes of the media. Would we need to have some sessions to which we would invite people who would be willing to advise us but who may not want to do so in the full light of the media?

Chairman

We could ask the Press not to come until we have had a preliminary discussion. But Senator Mulcahy feels we might have a number of sessions to accommodate people who might come at different times?

Senator Mulcahy

It would be awkward. The Chairman is aware of the difficulty we experience—that the Sub-Committees of this Committee can meet officers of various Departments who are willing to open up with us. They might feel somewhat constrained if that happened in the full light of the media.

Senator Hussey

I disagree with Senator Mulcahy there. It would be extremely important at all stages that the media be present. The subject is of international importance, it is not a Sub-Committee meeting with some officials of some Government Department. It is an extremely important question which would suffer from the lack of the media.

Senator Mulcahy

It is not the size of the question about which I am talking. It is the contributions we may or may not get from experts under those circumstances. I am not in any way taking from its importance. However, I know—from working at Sub-Committee level—we get a lot of co-operation and openness in Sub-Committee and I cannot see that happening in the full light of the media. At various stages of the discussion we can go public but I can foresee certain officials who might even be prevented, in certain circumstances, from attending.

Chairman

That is a drawback. We have no authority to interview civil servants with the Press present.

Deputy Quinn

While at all times I would prefer an open forum I recognise the obsession some Government Departments have with secrecy. What is of interest to the public and the rest of the Oireachtas are our conclusions and they at least should be open to the public. Reaching positive and constructive conclusions regrettably requires Sub-Committees meeting in secret. For the time being at least let us live with that imposition.

Chairman

Then under what Sub-Committee would this be organised?

Senator Mulcahy

Could not the full Committee meet in private as and when required?

Chairman

All right then.

Deputy O. J. Flanagan

Could we be enlightened: has there been a referendum in Greece, an expressed opinion of the people of Greece in relation to membership or is there likely to be?

Senator Brugha

No, it is not likely.

Senator Mulcahy

I would say there will be one in Portugal.

Question put and agreed to.

Deputy O. J. Flanagan

Will it be a month before we hear more about it because it is a subject of very great interest and concern to us all?

Chairman

It will take some time to collect and circulate such information as is available and we will go about that task as quickly as possible.

Deputy O. J. Flanagan

May I ask—with no offence whatever meant to Seantor Hussey—our visitors might think that all the women of this country were completely disadvantaged as a result of what she said; they might take away a very false impression. It might be no harm to add that there are quite a number of disadvantaged men in this country as well.

Chairman

Well, I am not going to allow a discussion on disadvantaged women or men.