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Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 16 Feb 2022

Accessibility for Individuals with Disabilities in Arts and Culture: Discussion

I welcome our guests to this afternoon's session. We are meeting with representatives from Arts & Disability Ireland, Create Ireland, Ms Clare McLaughlin, artist, and Seen-Unseen collaborator Ms Carmen Millar. We will discuss accessibility for individuals with disabilities in arts and culture. We are particularly delighted to have the witnesses here today to discuss this theme. We are especially delighted to have Ms Millar with us to give her lived experience as somebody working in the arts who has a visual impairment. I thank everybody for being here with us today. We are streaming from committee room No. 1 if anybody is tuning in. I also welcome Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair, chair, and Mr. Pádraig Naughton, executive director, of Arts & Disability Ireland. I welcome Dr. Ailbhe Murphy, director of Create Ireland, who is joined by her colleague, the body's arts and engagement programme manager, Ms Áine Crowley.

The format of the meeting will be that I will give our guests the opportunity to make an opening statement, which is curtailed to three minutes. They should not be put off by that as we will have much time afterwards to tease out their ideas and thoughts. My colleagues will all have five minutes for questions and answers.

I have a little housekeeping to do so I hope the witnesses can bear with me. As I said, we will give them the opportunity to make opening statements but there are some limitations in parliamentary privilege and the practices in the House with regard to references that may be made to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to any identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call our witnesses to make their opening statements. This is the most interesting part of our deliberations.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

I begin by thanking the Chairman, Deputies and Senators on behalf of Arts & Disability Ireland for this invitation to me and our chair, Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair, to speak before this Oireachtas joint committee. Arts & Disability Ireland is the national development and resource organisation for arts and disability. We champion the creativity of artists and promote inclusive experiences for audiences. Examples of our work include Arts and Disability Connect, an Arts Council funding scheme managed by Arts & Disability Ireland, which since its inception in 2014 has awarded 115 artists with disabilities a total of €354,638 through new work, mentoring, training and, since 2021, research and development awards. As the scheme has grown, Arts & Disability Ireland has encountered more artists who are struggling to avail of arts grants while in receipt of disability allowance, the blind or invalidity pension.

Since 2006, Arts & Disability Ireland has been to the forefront in developing audio description and captioning for visually impaired and deaf audiences. During the pandemic we have continued to deliver these services, including for an in-person and on-demand streaming of Rosaleen McDonagh’s Walls and Windows at the Abbey Theatre. Digital presentation has made the arts more accessible nationally and there is demand for a hybrid model as an access accommodation going forward.

In March 2021, Arts & Disability Ireland gathered global leaders and advocates for From Access to Inclusion as a reimagined online summit. Attracting 1,547 participants from 32 countries, Arts & Disability Ireland has been able to link Irish arts professionals committed to access with a global community of like-minded peers from across the arts, cultural, heritage and tourism sectors. Arts & Disability Ireland's vision is that people with disabilities can fully participate in the cultural life of Ireland on an equal basis with others, where "nothing about us" is "without us".

I know there is much from those that my colleagues will want to talk to Mr. Naughton about.

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy will now make the opening statement for Create Ireland.

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy

On behalf of Create, the national development agency for collaborative arts, I thank the joint committee for this invitation to speak to it. Create's mission is to lead the development of collaborative arts practice, enabling artists and communities to make exceptional art together. We support collaborative artists working across all art forms and context areas, including cultural diversity and arts and disability.

Collaborative arts practice involves artists and communities working closely together, often over extended periods of time, to make art. It harnesses the experiences and skills of each person taking part to give meaning and creative expression to what is important in his or her life. By facilitating wider participation, collaborative art expands and diversifies public engagement with the arts, enriching its contribution to society. Our work is about realising greater inclusivity and diversity in the arts. We believe that by working together, artists and communities can purposefully explore how collaborative arts engage in distinct, relevant and powerful ways with the urgent social, cultural and political issues of the times.

The artist in the community scheme, which Create has managed for the Arts Council since its inception in 2002, has seen close to 200 applications from artists to work with communities which identified as having a disability. Of these, 50 major projects have been supported. In consultation with Arts & Disability Ireland, we have done much work to create greater accessibility in the application process. The 2019 Arts in the Community, AIC, bursary award in collaborative arts and theatre was awarded to a non-disabled artist who, for the past decade, has collaborated closely to create a platform for people with intellectual disabilities to make ambitious art.

Our strategy, Connect Create Change: Leading Collaborative Arts in Ireland 2020-2025, recognises that to be truly inclusive means taking an intersectional approach to diversity which acknowledges how multiple forms of discrimination, such as gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability and class, can combine and overlap in the experiences of individuals and minority groups. For example, how do we best support a migrant Roma artist living in direct provision who self-identifies as having a disability? Such an artist clearly faces multiple interconnected barriers and requires a multifaceted, often multi-agency, support approach. We regularly consult our esteemed colleagues in ADI, working closely with organisations such as the Irish Refugee Council and the Migrant Rights Centre, to best respond to and facilitate such an artist to take up an opportunity.

We echo ADI’s experience of the difficulty disabled and vulnerable artists have in availing of grants for fear they might jeopardise benefits or draw unwanted attention to their situation, meaning, of course, that their artistic selves fade in the face of such barriers. Our job is to rekindle that creative drive by means of support and to make the arts accessible, not only for the public but for those artists who face many visible and invisible barriers to being their true creative selves.

I thank Dr. Murphy for her presentation. I invite Ms McLaughlin and Ms Millar to make their presentation on behalf of the Seen-Unseen project.

Ms Clare McLaughlin

I am a self-employed, socially engaged artist. I thank the committee for the invitation to this discussion on accessibility for individuals with disabilities in arts and culture. I would like to introduce one of the collaborators in my Seen-Unseen art project, Carmen Millar, who is visually impaired.

The area of expertise I bring to this discussion is what I have learned through my art project, Seen-Unseen, which explores access to art for the visually impaired person in the gallery space and elsewhere. Through the project, which began in 2014 and is ongoing, I have collaborated with many visually-impaired people, both nationally and internationally, to make the experience of the gallery space, which is predominantly a visual space, and individual artworks and exhibitions more accessible and engaging for this community.

I would like the committee members to consider for a moment any artwork from the national collection and imagine they are in the gallery where it is displayed. I now invite them to close their eyes and imagine what their experience of this artwork would be like if they could not see it. The average person spends roughly 30 seconds in front of an artwork but during a Seen-Unseen exploration, it can take anything from 30 minutes to an hour to engage with one artwork. We all need to slow down and take time to appreciate in full all that our rich arts and culture have to offer.

I thank the committee members for their time and attention. I will hand over to Ms Millar who will give the committee her experience of art from a visually-impaired person's perspective.

Ms Carmen Millar

I have retinitis pigmentosa, RP, which is a genetic eye disease. My eyesight is very blurry with loss of side vision.

I always thought I could no longer go to galleries but the Seen-Unseen project has opened the doors of galleries to me and my friends. We have been able to go in without visits. Art is introduced to us in forms of tactile and audio means. As a result, the world of art has opened up to us. Seen-Unseen has opened up the doors of the galleries and opened up a whole new world of art to us. We have been exposed to so many ideas and experiences. We absolutely love it and we do not want it to stop. We would like more of it.

I thank Ms Millar for the very visual description she has given us of her experience in the gallery. It is very much appreciated. I hope to talk to Ms Millar a little more about that tactile experience because we are so used to having to take a hands-off approach when we visit galleries. It will be interesting to see how Ms McLaughlin brings Ms Millar into that artwork so that she can imagine what is in front of her.

The format is that members will have five minutes to ask questions and get answers. I do not believe Deputy Cannon is on the line. I am double-checking before I move on. I call Deputy Mythen.

I thank all the witnesses, particularly Ms McLaughlin and Ms Millar. I will first ask all the witnesses about the recent basic pilot scheme introduced by the Minister. The basic income pilot scheme could see disabled artists excluded because it would bring their income over the income threshold. Has this issue been resolved or have their colleagues raised it with them?

How can we ensure that creative spaces are fully accessible for people to be able to independently attend festivals and events? The words in Mr. Naughton's opening statement, "Nothing About Us Without Us", are the core of this work. How do we ensure the experiences of people with disabilities are heard directly when we are discussing arts policy?

Who would like to respond to Deputy Mythen's questions?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

I can take some of them.

That is great. Nobody expects Mr. Naughton to answer all of the questions, just those that are pertinent to him.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

On the basic income for artists, we have been contacted by artists with disabilities who feel hard done by because they cannot participate in the scheme owing to the social protection thresholds. This is an issue not so much for the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to resolve but for the Department of Social Protection. The thresholds are quite arbitrary and relatively low. We need something that is much more flexible.

On the Deputy's question on "Nothing About Us Without Us", that was the mantra of the International Disability Caucus when the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD, was being negotiated at the UN from the early 2000s until 2006, when it was finally ratified by the UN General Assembly.

The way to deal with that is to draw in people such as me and Ms Millar, who have lived experiences alongside our allies and who are important in making what we do happen and also providing a multiplier that makes sure the voices of people with disabilities are heard more often, rather than us representing ourselves all the time.

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy

I will respond to the question about the basic income for artists. I would like to underline how absolutely transformative that initiative is for all artists. At the recent consultation with the Minister, at which the entire sector was represented, what was preoccupying many artists was the importance of it being fully inclusive. It cannot just work for some; it needs to work for everyone. I could not underline more how absolutely transformative it will be. We would like to see the initiative opened up in such a way that our disabled artist colleagues can also avail of it. It would radically change the landscape for practising artists in Ireland.

Ms Clare McLaughlin

I thank the Deputy for his questions. On the question of income, from the perspective of artists with all types of ability, the average artists earns less than €10,000. A basic income is slightly more than that. I remind people that they should put more value on the cultural input that artists have in Ireland.

The Deputy also asked about making spaces more accessible. What I have found through Seen-Unseen, and that is where I am coming from, is that while box-ticking exercises are important for the optics, it is necessary for all the organisations and people organising events to put themselves in the shoes of people with disabilities and ask them what they want, rather than telling them what they need. Once that relationship has changed, it will make a big difference.

I welcome our guests. I was watching their contributions on the monitor in my office. I was struck by two perspectives. I recall somebody saying, in the middle of the worst stages of the pandemic, that in rushing back to normal after the pandemic, we must decide what aspects of normal are worth returning to. We learned an awful lot about how we structure the workplace to operate remotely during the pandemic. We also learned an awful lot about how we facilitate greater enjoyment of art and culture through the use of technology from the perspective of both the audience and the creator. A lot of work was done by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, to empower many of our cultural spaces to broadcast online, giving them facilities they did not have before. How much of a role is technology going to play in disseminating art and culture more effectively in the future? What role does it have to play in terms of the creator being able to reach a far wider audience? I hope our guests will agree that is a significant opportunity. How can artists and performance spaces be empowered to become more adept and effective at using that technology? How can they be funded?

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

I will respond in my capacity as chair of Arts and Disability Ireland and as an arts centre director. Technology has certainly significantly reduced barriers. Where I work, audiences who may never have set foot inside the building have joined us. It is key not to leave those audiences behind as we return to rooms. The approach is twofold. We are still seeing a need to return to confident, creative encounters in person, which will be a slow and gradual build, while maintaining and sustaining this digital capacity building we enjoyed during the pandemic. It is important to make note of what accessible digital engagement looks like because sticking auto captions on a prerecorded piece of content is not as accessible as we might think it is and, therefore, we must, as my colleagues have said, continue to engage directly with and listen to people with a variety of access needs, not just those with which we are most familiar and comfortable.

In terms of appetite and audience demand, we have seen a drop-off but we are not willing to let that programming go because we will leave other audiences behind. As a result, there needs to be a two-strand, parallel approach to maintaining and developing this. The development of it still has a way to go to achieve a fully integrated tech experience that honours artistic ambition and quality while perhaps using some of that technology for people who are unable to return to cultural spaces.

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy

I am glad to be able to speak to this question. On Friday week, I will travel to the Skibereen arts centre in Uillinn where the new MA in art and environment will be launched. This is its first year. I think Ms McLaughlin is familiar with the course. It is offered globally so that students from anywhere in the world can participate. The idea eventually will be that the work will be developed in virtual space. On top of all the learning to which Ms Ní Choncubhair has referred, there are also new paths emerging. Many artists or students who cannot physically access these courses can participate, negotiate and co-create with their peers in any number of different parts of the world. There is an entire third life in the virtual world that the arts are exploring and are interested in. That is worth supporting because it creates greater accessibility. The danger, of course, is that it becomes a substitute for the real tactile experience. All of the responsibilities and work that my colleagues are speaking to in respect of the accessibility of physical spaces must continue and accelerate. However, there is no doubt but that the virtual and digital are new worlds that are interesting and dynamic for artistic and cultural production.

That is exciting to hear. Is there any country that might claim to be the exemplar in this area or could we become that exemplar?

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy

We could have a very good stab at that.

I think we could.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

There are many countries that are working in this space. Sometimes we like to pride ourselves on being brilliant at stuff. I do mean that to refer to just us Irish. In the disability space, as advocates, we like to think we have got it sorted but we should be more like magpies and learn all the time from other people. There are things we do from which other people can learn. When we did our big summit last year, and this was something I had not seen elsewhere, we decided to make it available as a digital experience in Irish, American and British sign language because those were our largest audiences. We had to technically reinvent the virtual space to make that happen because it had not been done before. We did not realise that until we did it. People learned from that and, equally, we are learning from others all the time. We need to keep learning.

Ms Clare McLaughlin

I thank the Deputy for his questions. The audience for Seen-Unseen has grown through the pandemic and it is now reaching three continents. We have visually impaired people tuning in. However, from the Seen-Unseen research and development, I know it is important to include the tactile elements so I post out a tactile pack to each of the participants in advance.

Technology is great but the physical element of touch and embodied experience is also very important.

I am delighted that Dr. Murphy is going to Skibbereen, which is just over the road from me in my constituency. A fantastic soundscape artist called Sylvia is based in the Uillinn arts centre. It is proof that sound art and acoustic-based art is another accessible form of art for people who have a visual impairment. It shows where we can go to make art more accessible to everybody. Obviously, then there is the challenge that soundscapes are potentially not accessible to people who have hearing impairments. It is a fantastic facility and I am sure that Dr. Murphy will love it.

I have one very quick question to which I might get a brief answer. Deputy Mythen mentioned universal pay for artists and the impact this would have on social welfare entitlements. Are bursaries and grants means tested for social welfare payments?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

They are means tested and this is a really big issue. Essentially, once the money hits the artist's bank account it is regarded as capital means. It is very concerning issue. Let us consider, for example, a new work award from Arts and Disability Ireland, which is a scheme we manage on behalf of the Arts Council, worth €15,000, a very small proportion of that may go to the artist as fees. Most of that money will go to pay other artists and other creatives, for materials and venue costs, and for all the other costs associated with making a project happen but still we have a situation where all of the money is regarded as capital means. This is particularly troubling with regard to blind pension for which the capital means allowance is €20,000, whereas for disability allowance it is €50,000. The number of people who are on blind pension is relatively small. I believe it is roughly 10% of all people with disabilities who receive money from Department of Social Protection. The material difference in actually equalising those capital means thresholds by bringing them all up to €50,000 would be a minimum solution but it would be a start. Arts and Disability Ireland is doing some work around auspicing services, which is an Australian system whereby an organisation would hold money on behalf of artists and spend that money on their behalf. If we could move to that position it would be particularly useful, not just for people on disability allowance or on the blind pension, but also in the case of invalidity pension where those claimants are not allowed to earn income. There are complex issues but there are ways that we can try to address these.

That pretty much answers my question. Clearly, it is something Arts and Disability Ireland would like to see changing around the disregard for income.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

Yes.

I have a second question. It is very important, although we have not touched on it in a massive way yet. With regard to the experiences of the artists and the people that the witnesses deal with, given there are so many different forms of art and so many disabilities that people experience, what is the experience of performance artists around accessibility of venues and other places they perform, including the facilities in place to accommodate disabilities, be it visual impairment or wheelchair use? Is this something we need to tackle, perhaps through funding?

Ms Millar has touched on my next point, which is the experience of the punter and someone who is going to enjoy art. Reference was made to the situations in galleries and if we could imagine closing our eyes and not being able to enjoy that art. What is the accessibility situation on the ground for those who go into a gallery or a music venue and how the venues are adapted? Is very little being done in that space or is it improving? Those questions are for any witnesses who would like to respond.

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

I will respond to the first part. There are approximately 50 art centres under the remit of the Arts Council on the island of Ireland at the moment. A huge wave of those centres were built in the past 25 years, so there is perhaps an element of retrofitting required to fully accommodate access needs. There is absolutely a need for capital investment in some of that retrofitting. Beyond that, capacity-building work is happening and more is possible, including such elements as disability and equality training for teams on the ground who can interpret a variety of access needs based on individual artists or audience members who are experts on their own lived experience. Knowing what to ask, when to ask it, how to accommodate it, and when to just leave people be is quite seismic in being able to facilitate creativity and audiences without this huge capital investment. It would be key to see that developed and disseminated alongside any necessary infrastructural changes to these creative spaces.

Ms Carmen Millar

The galleries that Ms McLaughlin has been taking us to include the National Gallery of Ireland, the Crawford Gallery and the Void Gallery. Basically, it would be by special arrangement and Ms McLaughlin and the staff there would have a special guided tour. We would be taken to a special room where we would explore a certain piece of art or we would get special permission to touch certain pieces of art. In the Crawford Gallery, for example, we would get special permission to touch sculpture while it is being explained. Because this has been specially arranged by Ms McLaughlin and the staff, they would guide us through the gallery.

How accommodating would a gallery be for someone who is visually impaired who just walked in off the street without any prior arrangements?

Ms Carmen Millar

I have actually done that. I have walked into the National Gallery and walked for quite a bit. I realised that there were stairs, and it took a while before security found me and I asked them to direct me and take me to the ladies toilet or to the canteen and so on. On my own it was a daunting experience, so these guided sessions are awesome. We also get to engage in the art and explore an artist. It becomes an art experience. We absolutely enjoy the experience and know that we can enjoy art even though we cannot see all of it. The organised trips are great. Just walking in off the street is a bit daunting and even if we can walk about, we do not really know what we are seeing. We might see some stuff that does not make sense. The audio description and the tactile guidance is awesome. The National Gallery and the Crawford Gallery have been doing special tactile reprints of art pieces.

Within our workshops, we are able to touch all the lines of a particular painting. We can touch it, feel it and somebody describes what the colours are. We might get to feel a piece of material, perhaps a curtain or somebody's dress on a painting just to get the feel of it. Combining the touch and the audio makes it an experience. The organised trips are of more value to us than just walking in off the street. You could walk right into steps, fall down steps or you would not know where the lifts are, so the organised sessions are key.

I bid a warm welcome to everyone. I will ask my questions first as we have just five minutes and then I will get individual responses from the witnesses.

My first question is for Ms Ní Chonchubhair or Mr. Naughton. Regarding the Arts & Disability Ireland Connect scheme, how many grants are generally awarded annually and is the funding available adequate to deal with demand?

I also have a question for Ms McLaughlin and Ms Millar. What, in their opinion, are the main barriers to people with disabilities taking part in, enjoying and participating in the arts in this country? What are the main barriers that have yet to be addressed?

My final question is for Dr. Murphy. Could she explain how her organisation is primarily funded? What are the annual costs for providing the services?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

As regards Arts & Disability Ireland Connect, I will just deal with 2021 when we awarded funding to 24 artists. Some 47% of the artists who applied were successful. I would say the funding is adequate, but there are always more opportunities, especially tailor-made opportunities. One of the big issues at the moment is that funding alone is not always enough. There is an issue, for example, if a deaf person who is a sign language user needs to negotiate or find a mentor. He or she needs sign language interpretation support to do that. Currently, the resources are very limited in terms of making that support available to them. We have been talking to the Arts Council about extending support. The other issue is within the awards themselves, when an artist is funded, currently most of the access support that is required needs to come within the project funding. Again, in conjunction with the Arts Council, we are looking at how we can address that issue.

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

To build on that if I may, the figures Mr. Naughton has presented are for the number of artists directly funded by ADI, but ADI also provide a range of supports to artists who perhaps secure funding or bursaries through other streams in partnership with arts centres or production companies. We are seeing a slight trickling down of the recognition of access needs being separate from a production budget. That is a positive change that needs to be sustained and encouraged.

Ms Carmen Millar

In terms of barriers to people with disabilities engaging in the arts, basically, we need more supports. For example, the Seen-Unseen project is going in some galleries and we need it in more galleries. We need capacity for more music events. When we phone to book accessible tickets for music gigs, for example, there are only so many allowed. As a result, only a few lucky people get to sit at the accessibility stage and enjoy the gig. If the seating is sold out, you cannot use it and you have to join the crowd. I have been to a gig where I was in the crowd and I was bashed about, elbowed, stamped on. It is not suitable. The only way to enjoy a gig is to get the accessible ticket and sit at the accessibility stage, but there is not enough capacity so more of everything is needed.

I have also been involved in audio-described performances at the Abbey Theatre. The audio description is arranged by ADI. There are only 20 headsets for audio description so there needs to be more. If a play runs at the Abbey for a month and only one performance is audio described, only 20 people will get to access it because there are only 20 headsets. Only 20 people in the whole country will be able to go to the Abbey to see that play. Could we have more audio description, more seating for accessibility, more of everything please?

Ms Millar makes a good case. Does Deputy Munster have any more questions or is she okay with that?

The final question was to Dr. Murphy about how the organisation is funded and what the annual costs are to provide the services.

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy

Our primary funder is the Arts Council of Ireland. It funds us through a programme called strategic funding, which covers our core costs. Our annual grant this year was €375,000, which is an increase. We are a revenue-funded organisation of Dublin City Council. We moved from project funding to revenue, which is an additional €10,000 a year. On top of that, we fundraise. We partner with many other organisations in the arts and outside the arts to see what opportunities we might be able to create for artists. For example, from 2014 to 2018 we were the lead partner in a Creative Europe project. There were nine organisations across six countries and there was a budget of €2.84 million. The project budget was €1.4 million across all of those partners, and we had a fundraising target then to match that. The core funding is how we operate. It is what pays our salaries, and we get additional funds for a lot of our programme. We apply every year to the Arts Council for that fund.

Is Deputy Munster happy with that?

Yes, I thank Dr. Murphy.

I thank all of the witnesses who have come here today. I was struck by Ms McLaughlin's very visual description because it made me think about walking into the National Gallery and concentrating on the paintings. Could she let us know what we, as legislators, can do to make the arts more accessible? There is a role for the Arts Council regarding venues, but I am interested in hearing if there is a message for us in terms of what we can do.

The good thing now is that we are finally emerging from two years where everyone was denied a lot of aspects of the arts, except on a screen, but the fact that we can get back into venues again is great. What should we learn from the pandemic in terms of making some of our venues more accessible?

This question is open to whoever wants to take it. Ms Millar referred to going to gigs, but the other thing that is coming back is festivals. We are finally seeing festivals being opened up all around the country in various formats. What should festival organisers now be thinking about to ensure that they are more accessible?

Ms Clare McLaughlin

I thank the Senator for his question on what legislators can do. Legislation forces people to do things.

There is a need for legislation to give an equal footing for everybody to have access to art, and an equal footing for artists to earn a living wage with their creative process valued, rather than just having a basic income. They should be valued on the same level as everybody else. In regard to legislation, I always prefer to use the carrot to the stick, so I would encourage venues and every organisation that puts itself out there in public events to put together a team of people with all types of abilities and disabilities who can tell them what they would like to see in that venue or space. When a meaningful conversation has been had, we can then legislate, but not until then.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

Some of the legislation that has been passed in the Houses in recent years has made a difference. I am one of the people who appeared before this committee in the past, in 2018. I made the point that the fact the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014 did not have a legal remedy within it was a weakness. However, the Department, and by extension the Arts Council, is now really pushing arts organisations to comply with their public sector duty and that is making a considerable difference. It has resulted in many arts organisations taking on equality, diversity and inclusion in a really meaningful way. I was one of a ten-person steering group which worked with the Project Arts Centre to develop its new EDI policy, and I have worked with Baboró in Galway on its LEAP project. As a result of that push from the Department and the Arts Council, many organisations are now involved proactively in pushing equality, diversity and inclusion, and getting under the hood to see what could make a difference. To that end, the arts participation organisations, such as Arts & Disability Ireland, Create, the Waterford Healing Arts Trust and Age & Opportunity, in particular with Bealtaine, have been working together over the past year on how, collectively, we can achieve that intersectionality regarding diversity, which Dr. Murphy mentioned.

Some of these measures are slowly making a difference but sometimes peace is slow. I commend the legislation on the difference that, many years on, it is beginning to make.

Did anyone wish to comment on the issue of festivals?

Ms Carmen Millar

I might come in on that. The Senator asked what the organisers should be thinking about now to make festivals more accessible. For one, the accessibility stages for outdoor festivals do not have coverings, so if it rains, people are stuck in the rain. If they have an umbrella, they might be fine, but if not, they will be stuck. People come around selling raincoats but that is too late after you have got wet. The organisers should think about providing a cover for the accessibility stages in case of rain.

Furthermore, the accessibility stage should be put somewhere where there is visual sight of the artists' stage in order that those who are able to see will be able to see it. It always seems to be located at quite a distance from where the refreshments are. If someone has come with a companion, he or she might be able to get refreshments, but if the person is attending alone, there is nowhere to get them. The stage should be positioned, therefore, closer to the refreshments. There are toilet facilities next to the accessibility stage, which is great, but it could be closer to the refreshments and should be covered in case of rain.

Finally, it is usually quite a long walk to get there, so perhaps they could be located closer to the exit given that, before the gig, it is easy to get in, but when it starts to end, it can be difficult to get out. It would be great, therefore, if the accessibility stage were closer to the exit.

Dr. Ailbhe Murphy

To link Ms McLaughlin's and Mr. Naughton's comments, I might add that there has been a distinct move in respect of the question of ecological, environmental sustainability and the effect of festivals, for example. As Mr. Naughton said, many organisations, because of the legislation, are actively considering equality, human rights and diversity in the same way as they are environmental sustainability and governance. It is crucial to arts organisations that we be seen to be addressing this. The organisation we are working with, Native Events, is leading out on much of this work and it came from the festivals and their work to make them more environmentally sustainable. If the same energy in the context of equality, human rights and diversity were folded over the lens of accessibility, we would be in a very good place. I take great heart from younger arts practitioners, who are keenly aware of the intersectional nature of these issues. They do not see them as single issues alone but as interconnected.

I welcome all our guests. It is incumbent on us as public representatives, in conjunction with the Arts Council, to make art accessible to the entire public and allow those who have a disability to participate in the arts. The comment "nothing about us without us" was made earlier. A friend of mine from Longford whom some of our guests might know, James Cawley, who is a policy officer with Independent Living Movement Ireland, regularly quotes that line.

Is there any arts facility in the country, funded by the Government or through the Arts Council, that is not accessible at present for a person with a disability? Is there anybody on the Arts Council who represents those with a disability? I ask because I believe that a person with a lived experience is best placed to give that advice.

I apologise if this has been covered, but what sort of funding is put in place yearly for the arts and disability connect scheme and should that be improved?

Senator Malcolm Byrne raised the issue of festivals, many of which are funded either through the LEADER programme or by Fáilte Ireland. Perhaps there should be a disability access policy as part of that application process, whereby the organisers would map out and be able to show they are catering for those needs when they make an application for funding, especially when it is State funding.

The St. Patrick's Day festivals to be held throughout the country are approaching, with a welcome-back after two years. I am from Longford, where we are working with the local chamber of commerce to provide a quiet section of a street to accommodate those, particularly from the autism community, who find it difficult to enjoy a parade because of the loud noise and so on. We are also putting in place a parking area adjacent to the street to accommodate people who require wheelchair access and so on. As parades and festivals are returning to our towns throughout the country, perhaps the organisers will take that on board.

Every local authority should take that on board as the parades, festival and so on are coming back to towns throughout the country, so that we can cater to those who have not gone to festivals in the past because of noise, sirens, and such. They should make sure that the committees have something in place to identify in advance the needs of those in wheelchairs, etc., so that they are able to enjoy the parades.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

I will respond to two questions then pass over to my colleagues. There are arts centres, venues and buildings that are not accessible. I will not name them. As Ms Ní Chonchubhair said, many art centres are relatively recent additions and are accessible. Some arts centres, venues or other buildings have activities that need to be located to somewhere else. We did an access audit with a local authority. It was not just that it did not want to make the building accessible, but because of a right of way, it did not have the space to do it. The conclusion of the arts officer in that place was that the centre needed to be relocated.

Regarding arts and disability connect, there are awards of €15,000 for new work, €5,000 for research and development, €3,000 for mentoring and €1,000 for training. It would be great to have no more awards. However, we have increased the new work award from €8,000 to €15,000. We then started to notice that more and more artists were having issues with the Department of Social Protection. Awarding more money if we cannot solve some of the other issues that are outside of our control will not necessarily fix the issues.

Ms Clare McLaughlin

Some venues are not accessible and some venues do not put themselves in the shoes of the person with a disability to help to make the venue more accessible, which is just not on. It would help if all of the staff in the galleries, museums and publicly-funded places were trained and had a session with people trying to access services. It is all very well if people are interested in accessing services, but what about people who might think it is not for them? It is a matter of information and accommodation for people. That should be a given for any funding provided to public places.

Ms Áine Crowley

We manage the artist in the community scheme on a devolved basis for the Arts Council. That funding is also available to artists who may have a disability. Over the past couple of years, through the council's human rights, equality and diversity policy, we have been gathering more statistics, and we are starting to see the numbers of artists coming to the scheme who may have a disability. We have stronger background information on artists who are collaborating with communities and who identify as having a disability.

Regarding points of access to funding for artists, it is not just about the making of the work or accessing buildings. There are many points of entry. How do artists get to the table to access funding? Someone might be neurodivergent. Written formats do not work for everybody. We see this throughout our work and with this intersectional lens. We work with artists who may speak English as a second language. How can artists write in their first language and have it translated so that it is comparable for panels? How do we change application processes so that artists may, instead of a written application, have the opportunity to meet the panel? All of this have to consider barriers in accessing funding. Getting to the table is one point. An artist might need a personal assistant in the making of artwork. How do we support that? These conversations are opening up. It is taking time. We work closely with ADI to determine what the best advice we can give to the Arts Council is. We know it is already rolling out such supports.

It is not about the venues; it is about how the artists get to the table to get their application reviewed by a panel and how they make the work or get it supported. They may need additional assistance or mentorship, which is not necessarily covered by the funding. We have seen similar challenges where artists have been funded and the lump sum has caused an issue with Revenue. There are layers here, extending to when artists are in a venue with their community, and barriers remain.

I am disappointed to hear that there are venues that are not accessible. Perhaps the Arts Council, which funds this, should audit these facilities. Maybe it has done so, but in 2022, there should not be venues that are inaccessible to those with a disability. It is not acceptable.

I thank the Senator. I thank the witnesses for their presentations. They have given new insight into the issues. I have a question for Mr. Naughton. He talked about the successful applicants for funding. Did he say 47% were successful?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

Yes. Some 47% were successful in being funded in last year's round.

Is that quite low?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

From our point of view, it is a development scheme and we do not have money to give to everyone. We try to make sure that as many people as possible are funded. A unique aspect of the arts and disability connect scheme is it is the only scheme that has a post-application process. After the deadline, we go through all the applications and try to work with the artists to make as many of them as eligible as possible. I do not mean that they get to rewrite their applications; far from it. We work with many artists who have very little experience of applying for funding. This is often a gateway into funding. I am delighted that many of the artists whom we have funded have gone on to achieve project awards and bursaries from the Arts Council, and sometimes from Create Ireland's artists in the community scheme. If artists apply and say that they want to create their project over 13 months, when the guidelines say 12, we would ask them to fix that, then it would be eligible. If we could see that they obviously had an imbalanced budget, we would ask them to fix it. We do not just try to get people to apply to the scheme, but we also work with them to learn from their applications and to get many of them through to a panel. Of the four panellists, we would always have one artist with a disability. We have funded many artists with intellectual disabilities. We are working to put infrastructure in place so that a person with an intellectual disability can sit on the panel and adjudicate on the applications with his or her peers.

I thank Mr. Naughton. I do not have any further questions. I thank the witnesses. I will make a point and then call Deputy Mythen again. I concur with what Mr. Naughton said. There has been substantial growth in arts centres and venues since the access funding became available. There has been more capital investment, infrastructure, and many more state-of-the-art buildings.

Prior to that we often found that arts venues were reinvented places, such as garages that became arts venues. These were buildings that were manipulated into makeshift arts venues. This is from where many of them have grown. Unfortunately, they are not all at the point of getting a state-of-the-art building. From a government point of view there is a lot of emphasis on accessibility when it comes to not only capital expenditure but also programming. We will see continued improvements in this area. I take Senator Carrigy's point. Some of the venues pose difficulties for people with a disability. If a county has one theatre it might be the sum total of it. This is another challenge in terms of how far people have to travel to find a building that is accessible and that has audio and tactile opportunities. There is a way to go on all of this.

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

To add to what Mr. Naughton has said, we are speaking about equality, diversity and inclusion. For me this is a question of belonging. If we are to talk about every art organisation having charter or commitment on belonging, one of the issues we encounter in our work whey trying to foster relationships is that one of the greatest access needs is time. One of the greatest barriers to access or participation is time. It is very difficult to apply to a funding stream and then realise something within a typical calendar year. We need to encourage in areas of influence multiannual funding or flexibility. I know this is tricky in terms of budgets and drawdown. We work with artists who identify as disabled due to chronic illness. Realising something from application to completion and then reporting would not be legitimately feasible within a calendar year. We need to encourage this flexibility. If we want to make this change purposeful rather than ticking boxes we will need to be able to foster and develop relationships with communities that intersect in all of these areas. It does not fit neatly into a calendar year. As with our colleagues here and the work they are doing with areas and streets for people with sensory sensitivities, to really embed it sometimes we need a lot more time. Sometimes the structures under which we need to operate do not facilitate this.

That is a very good point.

I have a quick question I meant to ask at the beginning. We have spoken a lot about involving artists with a disability in the visual arts and theatre. Is there support for movement-based arts such as dance? Will the witnesses comment on what supports might be needed to make these spaces more accessible?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

In terms of the work done by Arts and Disability Ireland and most organisations such as ours, we support all 11 arts forms that the Arts Council funds and that are identified in the Arts Act. This includes dance and movement. It is a smaller proportion within the arts and disability connect programme. Visual arts account for more than 50% of successful applications. Dance is at a much smaller number. One of the projects in which we are involved that will come to fruition in 2023 is to commission an artist with a disability to develop a piece of new dance for children and young people in collaboration with the Ark and Dublin Dance Festival. It will be a sizeable commission and I am really excited about it.

I thank the witnesses most sincerely for being with us today and sharing their experiences, thoughts and views. We will continue to advocate at government level and with the Department what the witnesses have brought to the committee today. Mr. Naughton said earlier this does not all lie with the Minister with responsibility for the arts. What other Minister did he mention?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

I mentioned the Minister, Deputy Humphreys-----

Yes, the social protection aspect.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

-----because of how social protection is structured. Ms Crowley also mentioned Revenue. Getting these intersections right and creating more flexibility is crucial.

Message received loud and clear. I thank all of the witnesses.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 23 February 2022.
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