Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 23 Mar 2022

Broadcasting Authority of Ireland: Discussion with Chairperson-Designate

Chairman

I welcome members and our guests, who are joining us remotely. Before we proceed with business, I want to attend briefly to a housekeeping matter. I ask the witnesses to bear with me while I do so. Can I take it that the draft minutes of our previous public and private meetings, of Wednesday, 23 February and Wednesday, 9 March, respectively, are formally agreed and there are no matters arising? Agreed.

Today's meeting is to discuss with the chairperson-designate of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, Ms Mary Curtis, her role and priorities. Standing Orders provide that the committee has the power to require that the chairperson-designate of a body or agency under the aegis of the Department shall, prior to his or her appointment, attend before the committee to discuss his or her strategic priorities for the role. We are delighted to welcome Ms Curtis, as well as Ms Celene Craig, CEO of the BAI. They are joining us remotely via Microsoft Teams. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms Curtis to deliver her opening statement, which will be limited to five minutes, followed by questions from members of the committee. The witnesses are advised that the committee may publish the opening statement on its web page.

To limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, we encourage all members, witnesses and visitors to wear a face mask when moving around the campus and when they are in close proximity to each other, to be respectful of others' physical space and to adhere to any other public health advice.

Before inviting Ms Curtis to give her opening statement, I want to explain a number of limitations in regard to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Oireachtas in regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, as today's witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts, it is important that they bear in mind that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as does a witness who is physically present. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal action in this regard but I am sure that will not arise out of today's proceedings.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise to engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they may be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present in the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit members to attend where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. I also ask members when contributing via Microsoft Teams to identify themselves when contributing for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report. Members should mute their microphones when they are not contributing to reduce background noise and feedback.

With all that housekeeping out of the way, we are down to the important part of the meeting, namely, our engagement with our guests from the BAI. I invite Ms Curtis to make her opening statement.

Ms Mary Curtis

I thank the Chair and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media for the opportunity to meet to discuss my role and key priorities as chairperson designate of the BAI. I was very pleased to be appointed as chairperson designate by the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport, and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, last October. Having been a member of the board of the BAI since 2017, I welcome the opportunity to continue to work with my fellow board members and the BAI executive in leading the organisation over the coming period.

Through my 25 years working in the Irish broadcasting industry, across both the public service and commercial sectors, I have gained understanding and knowledge of the Irish media sector and the challenges that lie therein. This has been further enhanced by my membership of the authority which, in recent years, has had a particular focus on legislative developments and the evolving media landscape in Ireland and the EU. These experiences have given me a understanding of the BAI, its strategic objectives and the environment in which it operates. All of this will assist me in my role.

The BAI is the independent regulator for broadcasting in Ireland and was established further to the Broadcasting Act 2009. The BAI has responsibility for a broad range of activities, including the licensing, regulation and support of independent and public service broadcast media. Under the broadcasting funding scheme, the BAI also provides funding for programmes and archiving relating to Irish culture, heritage, and experience.

My application for the role of chairperson was motivated by a desire to ensure continuity of leadership in guiding the strategic direction of the BAI at a time of huge change for the authority, and in line with the organisation’s strategy statement for 2021-2023. The previous chairperson of the BAI, Dr. Pauric Travers, completed his term of office in December 2020 having provided excellent leadership to the BAI. With a clear understanding of the BAI’s responsibilities in terms of complaints, the Sound and Vision scheme, media literacy, licensing, compliance, the Irish language, diversity and media plurality, broadcast compliance and enforcement, I will apply the knowledge and expertise I have gained through my time on the board and during my career to ensure the BAI continues to function effectively in line with the Broadcasting Act 2009, while also focusing on the transition of the authority into the new media commission, as provided for under the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill 2022. In a context where the regulation of the media environment is evolving at a rapid pace, my knowledge and experience of the policy and legislative requirements will allow me to embark on the role without the necessity for a bedding-in period. In addition, my familiarity with my fellow board members and the executive is already well established.

While all change management projects have unique features, they also have many in common. Having led new projects, such as the digital television switchover in RTÉ and the establishment of UTV Ireland, I will bring with me the project management skills and understanding necessary to support the BAI through its transition into the media commission. As chair, I will also apply high standards of corporate governance in line with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies. As the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill progresses through the Oireachtas and we await the report of the Future of Media Commission, the BAI is preparing for significant changes in media regulation and its own organisational structures, along with the opportunities and challenges that this will bring.

Steady and strategic stewardship of the BAI is required over the coming months and years. It is my intention that the board and I will work closely and collaboratively with the newly appointed CEO of the BAI, Ms Craig. Ms Craig leads an experienced, committed team of professionals dedicated to public service. I am also grateful to have colleagues on the board who have consistently given generously of their expertise and demonstrated their commitment to the BAI.

I especially welcome the Bill’s proposal for the functions and staff of the BAI to be transferred to the new media commission. This approach will ensure the BAI brings its significant knowledge and regulatory expertise gained in regulation to date in contributing to the future work of the commission. In reporting to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, I also look forward to close collaboration with her and her officials in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport, and Media. I anticipate that this will be a necessity over the coming months.

I again thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss my role and key priorities as chairperson and look forward to answering any questions that members may have.

Chairman

I thank Ms Curtis for her very comprehensive opening statement. I am sure it will ignite many questions for my colleagues. All members have seen the speaking slots that have been circulated, so they know the order in which they are to contribute. Each has five minutes for questions and answers and I ask that they bear that in mind to give Ms Curtis and Ms Craig enough time to respond. Deputy Mythen is first.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I also thank Ms Curtis and Ms Craig for attending. Both are very welcome. Will the BAI officials give us a flavour of the way they anticipate engaging with the public on the promotion of media literacy? As the BAI is an important constructor of codes, rules and policies, how does it intend to do this?

Ms Mary Curtis

I thank the Deputy for his questions. The BAI is engaging consistently with the public around media literacy and has in recent years run a number of programmes that have been extremely successful, working with other broadcasters. I will hand over to Ms Craig because she has greater detail but this is one of the key strategic priorities of the BAI.

Ms Celene Craig

The BAI has been instrumental in establishing Media Literacy Ireland and has co-chaired it for the past number of years. Fundamental to the policy underpinning the BAI's approach is this idea that there are many players in the media literacy field and the best way of achieving and working together is through the concept of networking. Media Literacy Ireland has been key in that regard. Working remotely in the last few years has enabled far greater outreach with respect to the number of interested parties and stakeholders we have been able to engage with. We have also worked extensively with colleagues at European level. The approach articulated by the BAI has been endorsed by the European Commission and other regulators. Members will have seen, for instance, our Be Media Smart campaign. It is just one of the ways we are reaching out to the public. We co-ordinate with education and a whole range of other stakeholder interests in trying to give effect to our media literacy objectives.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I thank the witnesses. The authority's strategic objectives refer to: "[Enhancing] creativity and innovation as distinctive features of the Irish audio and audiovisual sectors". What are the witnesses' thoughts on the animation sector in Ireland? This industry has the potential to boom and create hundreds of jobs in the future.

Ms Mary Curtis

It is a very vibrant industry and there are a number of fantastic production companies that are upskilling right across the country to build that capacity. They also have the ability to do many co-production deals, so they can get multiple investors involved. The nature of the content is such that it works across a European landscape. Ms Craig may wish to talk about the funding the Sound and Vision scheme has provided.

Ms Celene Craig

As Ms Curtis said, animation has been a key stream of funding under our Sound and Vision fund rounds, year-on-year. It is a key genre. We understand there is great skill and ability to deliver very high-quality content in animation.

It is there in our Sound and Vision scheme and in our decision-making around who to award funding to. We look for that breadth in content, formats and genre. Animation is consistently in there with regard to the kind of content we support under the Sound and Vision scheme. Through our sectoral development programme we also support Animation Ireland, which is looking to try to further the development of the industry generally in that particular sector. We support Animation Ireland in furthering their collective interests as a sector.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Would the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland favour the funding of indigenous drama and drama as Gaeilge? How would the authority set out to achieve this in the long run?

Ms Mary Curtis

The BAI funds and supports indigenous and Irish language drama. The Sound and Vision scheme has a certain percentage allocated to the Irish language. Drama is more expensive per hour to produce than any other form of content, which is a difficult challenge for the broadcasters and for the Sound and Vision scheme. There is a very solid track record to date in terms of the funding of drama.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I have two further questions. Do I have time?

Chairman

Go ahead. I will give Deputy Mythen the time because there are some members absent.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Ms Frances Haugen appeared before the committee recently and she emphasised the lack of technological expertise required to understand and monitor the dangers of the algorithms used by social media companies. Has the BAI engaged with the Minister in preparation for this challenge? It seems a very niche kind of skill.

Ms Mary Curtis

We have made our recommendations and prepared a submission to the expert working group around that particular subject. With regard to the expertise that is needed, and Ms Craig will join me in this, it is not necessarily something that is within our remit or our skill set at the moment. There is a lot of work involved in this and we are waiting for the expert group to come back its view and its report.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Ms Haugen emphasised the lack of expertise in that field. I believe that the Minister should co-ordinate with the BAI to make sure we get at least one or two of those people in.

Ms Celene Craig

Perhaps I could elaborate a little bit more on what Ms Curtis has said. We are engaging very actively with the Minister and her officials in the Department on some of these very foundational pieces. We are collaborating strongly with them, including on matters concerning recruitment and staffing for the proposed media commission. Obviously, a consideration of part of that is the range of skills that are there.

I am mindful of the specific comments that Ms Haugen made in relation to algorithmic expertise. This has been the focus of our deliberations at European level for quite a number of years now. What Ms Haugen said is clearly the case, that it is a very highly specific area of expertise. It will be very important for the media commission going forward to understand what the algorithms are and what they do, and the impact they have on the activities on the platforms and the way they deliver content to their users. Among regulators, our own organisation and colleagues, generally we find that there is a very strong understanding of what they are and how they impact users and content users of services. There is also a very strong understanding of how and in what way algorithms might impact the activities of regulatory agencies in this field. There is certainly a lot of that, and there are other ways in which this kind of expertise can be tapped into apart from-----

Chairman

I must stop Ms Craig there. We will have time to extrapolate those points a little further. I must excuse myself for a short time. I have another commitment this afternoon, for which I must leave temporarily. In my absence I nominate Senator Shane Cassells to take the Chair until I return. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Shane Cassells took the Chair.

Acting Chairman (Senator Shane Cassells)

I thank the members for agreeing to my chairing the meeting, temporarily. I welcome our witnesses. I call Senator Malcolm Byrne.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I congratulate Ms Curtis and Ms Craig on their recent appointments. It would be appropriate for this committee to write to formally thank Pauric Travers and Michael O'Keeffe for their work and public service.

I wish to take up the staffing point. Perhaps it is about the numbers and scale of staff. Will the witnesses outline to us what are the current number of staff with the BAI? Given the likely functions that will be devolved to the new media commission, of which the BAI will form a significant part under the Online Safety Media Regulation Bill, what are the numbers and scale of staff the BAI anticipates will be required in order to meet the obligations under that legislation? If, as may seem likely, the new media commission is the designated contact point in Ireland for the implementation of the Digital Services Act at EU level, what does the BAI anticipate as being the level of and scale of staff required to ensure that the work can be done effectively?

Ms Celene Craig

I thank the Senator. I am happy to address the issues. As I said earlier in response to Deputy Mythen's question, the numbers of staff and the make-up of that staff will ultimately be a matter initially at least for the Minister and her officials in the Department. Obviously, detailed exercises as time rolls out will be required by the media commission itself, having undertaken an extensive workforce planning exercise, as we would expect, to look at not just the numbers required but also the range of skills required.

Key to informing the ultimate number will be the final functions that are assigned to the media commission pursuant to the legislation. At this stage, we do know that those functions as envisaged in the Bill are fairly extensive, to say the least, and will require a very different level of staffing that currently applies to the BAI. Our operational numbers currently are around 36 full-time equivalents, but that number will increase. There will also be a requirement for incremental progression in the staffing of the media commission over time.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

The BAI staffing is currently at 36. When the committee was considering pre-legislative scrutiny of this legislation and speaking with the Department, it was indicated to the committee that the commission would need to grow to at least the level of the Data Protection Commission, DPC, at present, which is about 180 full-time equivalents. We are certainly looking at least at that size, and then more if the commission does become the point of agency for the Digital Services Act.

Ms Celene Craig

That would have to be looked at again. That would be a matter for the relevant Departments but I understand that currently this exercise has not actually been completed. We would expect that over time it may well go beyond 180 staff. The analogy with the Data Protection Commission's office would be a very close one given the extent of the European Union functions that would be assigned to the media commission. It will also depend on whether there is an independent complaints mechanism, which would very significant implications for staffing. Again, that matter has not been determined as yet.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that but Ms Craig will understand our concerns. The commission will have the potential to be one of the most powerful regulators in the State, given the scale of what is involved in regulating the social media companies. The commission will need teeth, and that is the concern of this committee. As Deputy Mythen has said, this will require highly qualified staff and also sufficient numbers.

If we leave aside the individual complaints mechanism debate and look at the more general regulation and understanding, particularly the Digital Services Act responsibilities, does the BAI believe it will be able to do it?

Ms Celene Craig

Given the principles, our understanding of regulation and our significant expertise in policy development and bearing in mind that we have been very involved in the planning, including at European level, of the audiovisual media services, AVMS, directive and the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, we believe the BAI staff have a great deal to bring to that. It is useful that a core group of staff will be available to get many of the functions of the media commission up and running at an early point. Obviously, the extension of staff will be vital. Over time, as this is rolled out, it will be necessary to review this and consider the need for additional areas of expertise or also additional staff. There are other ways of working with our fellow regulators at European level and other ways of working with academic interests and so on that can be very helpful in this kind of situation where we are rolling out very novel legislation.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

An area of particular interest to members is political advertising, including online. We are establishing an electoral commission and this will be crucial. The BAI has extensive experience of regulating political activity in the traditional broadcast media. What is its vision for that? For instance, I cannot take out a radio advertisement on my local radio station, yet I can flood social media with similar advertising. What is the balance to be struck on that? How does the BAI envisage working with the electoral commission?

Ms Celene Craig

We have made submissions around this in the past. One reason we support a single media commission is the need to ensure that regulation across all sectors of the media needs to be knitted together and coherent. We have experience of overseeing regulation of political advertising or, rather, not having it, as the Senator pointed out, in broadcasting services. That has brought us into the area of having to make certain decisions over the years. We have been very actively involved in looking at political advertising in the online space as part of our work with the European Regulators Group for Audiovisual Media Services, ERGA, and in advising the European Commission in that regard. As a group of regulators, ERGA recently submitted a proposal to the Commission, which it is examining in the context of the European Media Freedom Act. There is potential for further European legislation on this.

I would make the point strongly that political advertising is not only relevant during an election period, whether it is for Oireachtas, local or European elections. There are issues around political advertising that need to be taken year round. We would welcome the opportunity to engage with the electoral commission and ensure the legislative objectives as they may be determined in Ireland are effective across the various strands of media in Ireland.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I welcome both our guests and wish them well in their positions. I was reading about Ms Curtis's experience. She is a very capable person to take on the job of chair and I wish her well in that position.

Ms Curtis mentioned the report of the Future of Media Commission. It is ironic that the committee with the remit for the media has not yet had sight of the report whereas every newspaper, radio and television organisation in the country seems to have seen it and is able to report on it. It is disappointing that the committee still has not had sight of it months after it was completed.

The BAI's responsibilities include licensing and the Sound and Vision scheme. What is Ms Curtis's view of the idea of a media licence? It is something I am in favour of and on which some of us in Fine Gael did a lot of work on last year. There should be a media licence applicable to all households rather than the current television licence. That would increase the funding available. This funding would not be used for certain television stations but for all TV, radio and the written media, which are under a lot of pressure, particularly after Covid and with the advancement of online media, etc. What are our guests' views on such a licence that would be available to fund all forms of media?

Ms Celene Craig

I assure the Senator that we have not seen the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission. We are awaiting the report with as much interest as the members of the committee.

Several years ago when the Government invited submissions on this, the BAI supported a household charge. Our approach was that there needed to be a broader basis for ensuring support for public service broadcasters and, more generally, for public service media content. That is the thrust of our submission to the Future of Media Commission. We were very strong in making that point. The best mechanism is obviously a matter for the Government. The key point we would make is the real value and need to support public service content, including support for the two public service broadcasters, RTÉ and TG4. That is the case with all those offering public service content, including many national and local radio stations or the commercial television channel, Virgin Media. We are also mindful, although they are outside our remit, of what local and national print media bring to the sphere of news, public debate and democratic discourse more generally. We strongly support the need to look at ways of ensuring future sustainability. Our work around funding for the two public service broadcasters has very much been guided by that principle and the belief in the value that public service broadcasting and content brings to democratic discourse here. That is probably needed more than ever, particularly in light of the amount of misinformation and disinformation available to users online. It is a vital requirement. Covid particularly highlighted the value of such services and content. There is broad recognition around Europe that it needs to look at ensuring the future sustainability of our indigenous and traditional forms of media.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Complaints are also under the BAI remit. In its consideration of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill this committee recommended there be an individual complaints mechanism. However, such a mechanism did not form part of the Bill. The Minister has put the legislation out for scrutiny for three months with regard to amendments. Such a mechanism should form an integral part of the Bill. Maybe our guests cannot comment but I would like to know their views on having an individual complaints mechanism.

Ms Mary Curtis

We met last week with the authority to prepare our proposal to the working group. We have not seen anything. The individual complaints mechanism is a good idea. The question is around the issue of scale and manageability. Those are the key issues in terms of what it would actually be like. I understand our proposal went in today.

Ms Celene Craig

I can confirm that we have made a submission to the working group and that it went in today. I understand it will publish all the submissions in due course.

What I can say in general terms is that, as Ms Curtis said, it is a case of trying to balance this issue of scale with the real desirability to have a form of redress for individual complainants where they have been badly impacted by harmful content online. The approach we have taken is that we have not come down in any single way in terms of how it should all be done because it is complex. There are issues of scale and there really are significant issues with the resourcing that would be needed to support it. We hope we have given some options for consideration to the working group that would look at ways of managing scale. As I said, we are not centred on any one approach but we are saying there are different ways in which this might be considered and different choices that might be made to be able to address the core concerns at the heart of it. We fully support, validate and acknowledge the genuine concerns that exist around content. We have made some suggestions to the expert working group on different approaches it might consider in terms of managing this issue of scale and perhaps building the mechanism incrementally over time.

I would add that, in terms of putting in place a workable system, resources, and not just people resources but time as a resource, would also need to be given to this to set up proper systems, policies and procedures. There needs to be clear recruiting and training of staff and there is a need to ensure that the protections for staff working in this area are also in place. Those would all be extremely important elements of planning for such a mechanism. We have made some submissions to the expert group in that regard. That is broadly the thrust of our approach.

Acting Chairman (Senator Shane Cassells)

Thank you. I also thank Senator Carrigy. For housekeeping, I want to second the proposal by Senator Malcolm Byrne to write to Pauric Travers and Michael O'Keeffe with an expression of thanks on behalf of this committee. I call Deputy Imelda Munster.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I want to come back to the changes that will occur within the BAI when it is, if we like, dissolved when the media commission comes into being. I was going to ask about additional staff needs and what the witnesses expect, and they have covered that as best they can. I want to ask how the content levy will affect BAI funding and how the witnesses see that transpiring. From the point of view of the BAI, what are the main issues in terms of the changes that we need to see coming from the Future of Media Commission?

Ms Mary Curtis

The big challenge over the coming months is that the BAI continues to do its work as charged and that it continues to meet those strategic objectives in tandem with working very closely with the Minister, Deputy Martin’s officials on the establishment of the commission and, as we discussed, what staffing is going to be involved, the cost, the funding and also the responsibilities. Ms Craig might want to comment on how we see the BAI being subsumed.

Ms Celene Craig

As Ms Curtis said, we are working with the Minister's officials in the Department around some of those transition matters and actively managing the impact of the wind-up of the BAI’s functions. They will transfer over but, obviously, there are a number of matters that will have to be wound up in an orderly way. Indeed, our authority has been extremely supportive and very keen to ensure that the transition is as smooth as possible. We also need to ensure there is as smooth as possible a continuation of the BAI's existing functions. Would the Deputy like me to address the content levy more specifically?

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, I want to ask how that will affect BAI's funding.

Ms Celene Craig

There is specific potential for raising funding via the content levy, as the Deputy indicated. It flows from Article 13.2 of the audiovisual and media services directive. It is something we have been giving quite a bit of thought to and, indeed, other sectoral interests in this area have also taken an in-depth look at the kind of funding that might be generated and the purposes for which it might be disbursed. Those are set within the framework of the legislation.

There are two ways of looking at this. Assuming that the Sound and Vision scheme continues as it is, the content levy would potentially sit alongside that and I think we will see that the shape as currently proposed in the legislation is not dissimilar to that. However, there would be a need to co-ordinate any sources of funding that might be available to support content within the scope of the legislation, and there would be a need to co-ordinate and try to look at that in the round in terms of the objectives of the media commission. There is certainly potential in the content levy. There is a bit of work to be done in terms of putting it in place and we also believe it is vital to continue the work of the Sound and Vision scheme while that content levy scheme is being developed and drawn up.

I will not say that there will be overlap but there is certainly the opportunity to look at the totality of funding in the round in terms of what the wider objectives of the media commission are in regard to diversity for Irish audiences and that wider issue around sustainability of the sector that links into that. There is a question of looking at it all in the round in terms of the kind of content that is produced by either scheme, although, ultimately, it might be something that would merge into a single scheme. At the moment, we believe it is vital to continue the Sound and Vision scheme while that Article 13.2 scheme is being developed. We have done some preliminary thinking on this ourselves and we have also been trying to lay the foundation for this. There is quite a lot of information that needs to flow from the sectoral players but also in other European jurisdictions. We are trying to smooth the process through a memorandum of understanding that we have developed with the other regulators in Europe to ensure there is that smooth through-flow of financial information from the players that would be contributing to such a scheme. We have done some preliminary work around this.

The other point I would make is that this is likely to be a very high priority for the new media commission and work could be up and running very quickly with the right resources in place.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is fair enough. The witnesses touched on the issue of the new complaints mechanism that will come to pass with regard to tech giants. I note that they said the BAI had already made a submission and proposals in regard to issues of scale and so on. Will the new media commission be responsible for all complaints in Europe or just those that come from Ireland? Did BAI make reference to that in its submission?

Ms Mary Curtis

Ms Craig was the last one to see that submission.

Deputy Niamh Smyth resumed the Chair.

Ms Celene Craig

That is due to having signed off on the detail of it. We are pretty clear, as we have been in the past, in saying that as there are close to 450 million citizens in the European Union area, taking complaints from those numbers on every aspect of the legislation, to be honest, is not workable in practice. We do not believe it could be feasibly managed, even with any amount of resources. We understand where some of those key areas of concern are, and that is the first thing I would say. Perhaps the resources should be targeted to those areas that are of most concern, for example, some of those more egregious forms of harm that can impact users online. We have suggested in the past, and we are continuing to suggest to the working group for its consideration, the idea that there are other ways of dealing with complaints - we can call them more societal-type complaints.

For example, there are co-regulatory solutions and some self-regulatory solutions that might be convened by the media commission. We believe there are a range of practical ways in which the whole gamut of potential complaints could be addressed within the regulatory framework in a way that is not solely left to the platforms to make those decisions. There may be self- and co-regulatory solutions. We can elaborate on those at another time, if members wish. We believe there are very practical ways of breaking up the different forms of content and online harms and different ways of managing them. Perhaps the starting point for an independent complaints mechanism would be to look at and deal with those most egregious forms of harm.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I do not know if I am speaking out of turn, but is it possible for the BAI to furnish a copy of its submission to the committee? I say that in the context of the committee's ongoing wide-scale engagement with stakeholders regarding the Bill. The one key thing that came out, above all others, was the importance of an independent complaints mechanism. That is the one thing the majority spoke in favour of, apart from the tech giants, for obvious reasons. Although the Minister has set up the working group, the impression is given, and I raised this with her on occasion in the Chamber, that she is not for it. As Ms Craig said, I can understand the scale of the thing but if legislation is to be effective and if we are to future-proof it, it is important nothing is dismissed out of hand, even if it means tying in with Europe to see if there are additional resources, funding, etc., to make this happen. There is nothing worse than legislation that is not effective and does not achieve the purpose it set out to achieve. I am eager and curious to see what the witnesses suggest that would address some of the concerns we have about the importance of securing that.

Ms Celene Craig

Yes, indeed. We understand the submissions will be published by the working group in due course. A whole range of considerations will be taken into account but we would be happy to share that in the future and to elaborate on any aspect of the proposal in due course. These are the kinds of issues we expect the working group to put into the mix as part of its considerations and determinations. We certainly do not want to pre-empt anything that it might recommend to the Minister or any decision the Minister may wish to take around that. There would be no difficulty in sharing the details of that in due course. We expect that it will be in the public domain in any event.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Munster for that line of questioning and Senator Cassells for taking the Chair in my absence.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome and thank Ms Curtis and Ms Craig. I congratulate Ms Curtis on her appointment and thank both of our guests for their years of service to public service journalism. Ms Curtis said that, in lieu of the media commission report being published, the BAI will just get on, do its work as charged and meet its objectives. It is totally unfair to Ms Curtis, Ms Craig and the BAI that Ms Curtis had to say that because it is a bloody disgrace that the report is not published. The Cabinet needs to get its act together. I say that as a Government party member. We need to publish the report and deal with the issue of how we will fund public service journalism. I listened to the Tánaiste yesterday fluthering around in the Chamber saying we would have it in a couple of weeks. I have been listening to that for six months now. It is not good enough.

Journalism in this country is in a precarious position, especially from a funding point of view. We do not need to tiptoe around the issue. We need to be frank with the public regarding how we will fund public service journalism. Journalism costs money. Good journalism and research cost money. Newsrooms are being diminished, especially in print but now in audiovisual and visual as well. A little while ago, a new building was opened for a local newspaper close to my heart. As the speeches went on, the CEO stated that in ten or maybe even five years' time the paper would no longer have a print version but would be digital only. As a member of the National Union of Journalists, that vista depresses me.

While newspapers are goosed, I am equally fearful about the commercial viability of public service broadcasting. I note that the BAI's strategic objectives 14 and 15 reference the enhancement of financial sustainability. I will turn to Ms Craig on that point. She stated that she favoured the household charge. We know from the leaks that the media commission report suggests scrapping the licence fee and moving to Exchequer funding. Given there is a migration away from advertising on terrestrial television, which will threaten RTÉ, Virgin Media and television in general, does Ms Craig support the proposal to go for Exchequer funding knowing what we need to back proper journalism, both news and original content?

Ms Celene Craig

I will clarify that the support for a household charge was historically the view that the BAI took several years ago at the point at which that was being debated. I wanted to clarify that.

As I said, in our recent submissions to the Future of Media Commission, we did not specify the means necessarily by which the funding needs to be raised. We particularly did not do that because we recognised that the commission was precisely considering these issues and was going to make recommendations on them. Rather than confusing the issue, the point that we highlighted in our submission to the Future of Media Commission was the requirement that procedures and practices are in place that support public service broadcasters but, more widely, also support the future sustainability of public service content. We recognise that broadcasters are obviously very key in that space but we also recognise there are some other key players, such as our independent radio and television services and, though not within our remit, areas of print journalism, which are being very challenged by the migration of traditional forms of revenue, mostly advertising, onto the online space.

Deputy Shane Cassells

Exactly. Are Ms Craig and Ms Curtis fearful, from a public perception point of view, about the value the public places on public service journalism? This will ultimately come down to charging the public and getting their buy-in for this. What value do they place on public service journalism because there is ultimately a cost associated with that? We see the massive evasion rates. There could be €40 million in evasion rates for the licence fee. Do our guests believe there is a diminishing value placed by the public on our public service journalism in the broadcasting sphere?

Ms Mary Curtis

I do not think so. When we look at how the public consume news and journalism-----

Deputy Shane Cassells

They want it for free. This is my point. They want it on their phones or tablets for free. It comes back to the public wanting newspapers for free on their tablets and not wanting to pay to get past the firewall to access them. Are they prepared to pay for public service journalism in the context of making sure that we fund it? I am sorry for cutting across Ms Curtis.

Ms Mary Curtis

Not at all. There is an issue around the collection of the licence fee. That has been a perennial issue. When we look at the household charge and compare it with the licence fee, one is very hard to monitor and the other is not. I do not think there is any diminished value or perception of it but the gathering of the licence fee has been an issue for many years. It was an issue when I was in RTÉ 20 years ago and it continues to be so. The value that comes from public service broadcasting is so important.

We can see by the figures and viewership that the Irish public, whether they favour it or not, still consume it, and that means there is a value to it.

The other challenges in this regard will concern the digital platforms, in respect of the next generation and how they consume their media-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Ms Curtis has touched on the heart of the issue and this goes back to my question. Is it the case that if we are going to protect public service journalism that we will have to bring it within the ambit of Exchequer funding to ensure we maintain standards? I refer to not ending up in a situation where we prostitute journalism to the extent we witness with Fox News, for example, where we must drive it into the commercial sphere to ensure its viability. Is it a case that we should bite the bullet here and ensure that we back public service journalism with Exchequer funding? If that proves to be the case in the context of the report of the media commission, would the BAI support such an approach?

Ms Mary Curtis

I cannot see a situation where news and current affairs is backed commercially or by sponsorship, because it would lose its integrity and independence if there were to be the case.

Senator Shane Cassells

To clarify, I was asking my question in the context of ensuring we do not go down that route, and the only alternative approach then is to ensure that we provide Exchequer funding for this type of public service journalism.

Ms Mary Curtis

It is a possible solution, but it is not for us to necessarily endorse it.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay. From a local radio perspective, John Purcell, chair of the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, told this committee before Christmas that the sector would have been goosed and gone if not for the Sound and Vision fund. Some 34 radio stations would have closed. Does Ms Curtis fear for the future viability of local radio stations and newsrooms?

Ms Mary Curtis

Yes, in the same way as there are the same challenges around how media content is being consumed. It is tough, and it has been extraordinarily difficult for people during Covid-19 to try to make programmes and get production in place. A recalibration is under way, and it is only now that radio stations can take stock and see what their future might be.

Senator Shane Cassells

Turning to Ms Craig, Senator Malcolm Byrne touched on the issue of social media and of ensuring that staffing levels in the companies in this sector are sufficient in respect of dealing with the issues that arise from their activities. We touched on Frances Haugen having been before this committee last month. She said it should be ensured that the algorithms in play here are monitored, and that 20 algorithm experts alone were needed to do so. Each of these experts, however, is paid €750,000, which is a frightening vista in the context of ensuring there is monitoring. Moreover, there are only about 200 such experts globally anyway. To ensure we have the requisite expertise in the office, is the BAI examining this aspect and the attendant challenges involved in addressing it?

Ms Celene Craig

Yes, as I said earlier, there is a clear need to anticipate the requirement for some of these skills. Regardless of whether these skills are available among the staff, there is a definite need for the regulatory authority, in the form of the media commission, to ensure there is an understanding of algorithmic activity on platforms and of the ways in which that can impact users and drive and push content to users. The BAI, as a regulator, has a good appreciation of some of these regulatory implications. It is critical that the media commission will also have such an understanding of the implications for regulations in respect of the way platforms use algorithms and how that drives the kinds of content received by users.

We found it helpful in recent years to broaden our understanding and knowledge in this field. We had extensive engagement with academics across Europe and beyond and that has been very helpful in broadening our understanding of this issue. The regulatory and compliance and enforcement framework which will flow from the legislation and that will impact platforms has the potential to address, by way of risk assessments, for example, the accountability of platforms regarding the way they deploy algorithms.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank Ms Craig. I realise I have gone over my time. I thank Ms Curtis and Ms Craig for their work and their service. I look forward to seeing this report published and to working with the witnesses in future. I wish Ms Curtis, in particular, all the best with her new appointment.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses. We have almost reached my turn to ask questions. Do any of my colleagues wish to ask any further questions? I call Senator Malcolm Byrne, on whom we can always rely to ask a second round of questions. I will ask my questions as part of the wrap-up.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I wish to focus on where we are going regarding the regulation of some of the social media companies. In a sense, I have great admiration for the challenge being taken on, but I am not sure if its scale has been fully realised in respect of the convergence of new technologies and the regulation of social media companies in that context.

Moving on the matter of the metaverse and augmented and virtual reality, this is a space we are moving into. Regarding the work of the new media commission, do the witnesses see, and this will be an issue in both their respective terms, a role for the BAI, and then the soon-to-be media commission, in regulating the metaverse? If not, in respect of the media commission, where will responsibility lie for regulating it?

Ms Celene Craig

Being honest, I have not had to express a definitive view on this question thus far. The digital space, however, does not require any single form of regulation or reform; it requires many forms of regulation. We work closely in this regard with some of our other regulatory colleagues in Ireland. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, for example, has functions in this area and we work closely with it. In the way same that any online content requires regulation, this issue will come down to examining the areas where it emerges that regulation is desirable. There may well include content areas, but other activities in the metaverse will impact other areas of regulation. This is an aspect of regulation that is probably going to develop over time. I am not sure I can say much more on this topic now. We are very much focused on the immediate future, but if the principle of the regulation of platforms, and the activities that flow from the operations of those platforms, require regulation, then it highly likely there will be implications for regulation, and not just for a media commission, but equally for other regulators. It is very likely that such regulatory areas will emerge over time.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I agree. It is a challenge for us as legislators to deal with this issue as well, given the convergence of new technologies, and to explore how we can ensure our people are safe in this space. Will the relevant powers in this context be devolved to the new media commission and will it be taking on this responsibility? I do not say this lightly, but the media commission will be one of the most important regulators in the country, and that is why we have concerns regarding the staffing complement of the new body.

The move to regulate the social media companies represents a significant challenge. We have seen the Data Protection Commissioner, DPC, and other regulators, impose significant fines for breaches of codes, etc. Ms Craig has experience of having to deal with breaches of various media codes. My concern about the breaching of some of these codes by these large social media platforms is that in many ways they simply regard these fines as a cost of doing business and write them off. In instances where we see reckless behaviour by these companies, would it be appropriate for us to examine making the directors of these companies individually liable, including being subject to criminal liability? I draw a parallel here with health and safety legislation, which is taken much more seriously when an individual director of a company can be held criminally liable for reckless behaviour. Given Ms Craig's experience in enforcing codes and dealing with breaches by media outlets, what approach does she think should be taken on this issue?

Ms Celene Craig

In previous submissions the BAI made to the Government, and we continue to hold this view, we stated that a whole suite of regulatory tools needs to be made available to the media commission, including the most significant and serious types of sanctions for the more egregious forms of breaches.

That whole suite of regulatory tools is desirable. However, not dissimilar to the approach that the BAI has taken over the course of many years, we have also found it helpful to work in a constructive way with regulated entities as well, and consulting with them for example as well as public consultation, when it comes to the content and the workability of codes, guidance to ensure that they understand the objective to be achieved and actually have practical ways to give effect to that. There are ways of working constructively and we believe that twin-track approach to regulation has served us well as a regulator over the years, strongly stressing that not being afraid to take significant and strong action where that is required. We are not afraid to use enforcement powers where they are required. I think a proportionate approach to regulation, especially in a new situation, is to try to ensure that platforms work with the regulator to ensure they can comply with the highest standards with the type of regulation that is envisaged and the policies, codes and rules that will be set by the media commission. It is a two-track approach but that full suite of sanctions needs to be available to a media commission to ensure that where there are egregious breaches of the legislation or the policies and codes, that it can take appropriate action.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I agree. That approach would be very welcome. It comes back very quickly to my earlier question and the response has been around political balance outside of election time. The BAI has had a significant role but in a diverse media that is going to be increasingly challenging. All of us as politicians would have criticisms. I would frequently be critical of RTÉ's current affairs programmes which regularly pit one Government representative against three Opposition representatives in contrast to Virgin Media which in fairness is much more balanced and tends to do one-on-one. Ms Craig's made a point about outside election times. What are the sort of issues she thinks we should be observing and monitoring?

Ms Celene Craig

At the moment there is a prohibition on political advertising on broadcast media. Our experience has shown that issues very often can come up. It might be a political individual who is looking to promote him or herself, or some of his or her activities. There are certain rules around all of that. For example, if someone is taking an issue or wants to promote a position on a particular political issue that may be going through legislation and wants to do that by way of advertising, that is the kind of challenge that might need to be considered. The position of the BAI as previously expressed before this committee is that the whole area of advertising needs to be looked at the round. We certainly would see something of an imbalance in regard to the rules currently applying to broadcasting and those applying in an online environment. There is a need to look at the whole issue in the round and ensure a fairness in the way the rules are applied. An electoral process is one very clear context in which political advertising occurs but political advertising in its broader definition can also apply to lobbying groups and agencies such as that, which might have particular political interests and want to promote their particular point of view. Clarity around what political advertising is, and looking at how those rules can be fairly applied across the whole range of media, would be the way in which I think the BAI believes it should be considered.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

What would Ms Craig consider the most important piece of new legislation, if any, she would recommend for the Online Safety Media Regulation Bill as regards her doing her job?

Ms Celene Craig

I am not quite sure I understand the question. Outside of the Bill, is there other legislation?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

No, that is what I am saying. Could Ms Craig recommend any changes or new legislation that she could see being introduced, that we can do for her, that would help her in doing her job?

Ms Celene Craig

I think the Online Safety Media Regulation Bill as it is currently drafted is a very extensive and ambitious piece of legislation. It will obviously be very important to give that time to take effect and be put into place. Based on our past experience, it is very often when you actually start to implement the provisions of legislation that a regulator is best placed to say how that legislation might be tweaked or developed in other ways. Obviously, depending on the recommendations that emerge from the Future of Media Commission, there may well be ways in which its recommendations might be strengthened through legislation but I am sure that is well within the sights of the Minister and her officials.

Beyond that, in terms of regulation of platforms more particularly, we will very likely see the Digital Services Act emerging in the next six to 12 months from Europe. It might be advisable in terms of platform regulation to see how that develops and how that takes shape in law. I think there will almost certainly be the potential for further legislative changes that will be required coming out of that. Indeed it is also likely that changes will come out of the European Media Freedom Act which I referred to earlier, in the context of which political advertising is being looked at. There are a couple of key pieces from Europe that I think will very likely impact the Irish legislative space as well as our own deliberations or decisions that might arise out of the Future of Media Commission report. There will be plenty of food for thought in terms of legislative changes. I do not think there is anything more immediate than that. As I said, I think it is important that the Online Safety Media Regulation Bill gets time to bed down and that the regulatory framework gets time to get up and running effectively. It would be very important to ensure that the legislation is not in any way undermined. It is an extensive piece of legislation and it has significant implications so it is important to give that some time to bed in.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Mythen. All of my colleagues have had the opportunity to ask the questions they wanted answered. I thank the witnesses for their comprehensive answers and replies. Apologies that I had to step outside. I hope that in my own questions I am not repeating something that has already been asked. Forgive me if I am. I am struck by the observations that are very accurate and in-depth and Senator Byrne's contribution about the fact that there are so many rules and regulations around not only political broadcasting but broadcasting in general through audio and visual compared to where we are at online. Of course to my mind there are no rules online. Anyone can say and do what they want, as far as I can see. That is why this media commission is going to be hugely important. Obviously the transition into that is going to be immensely important also.

Ms Craig spoke about the suite of regulatory tools that should be applied on the part of the commission to allow the commission to do its work and to give it teeth. In terms of the suite of regulations, without knowing the details of her own submission, will Ms Craig extrapolate or expand on that for me in terms of what that suite of regulations she has seen or proposed as part of media commission, might be and what shape they might take?

My second piece is around disinformation and misinformation. We are so mindful of that at all times. In particular now that we see what is happening in Ukraine and how Russia has probably influenced news, fake news and misinformation, and perpetuated propaganda on a global level and within its own boundaries within Russia, to its people there. I am conscious of all that as we talk about this but in terms of the BAI strategy and policy objectives around disinformation and misinformation, will Ms Craig talk a little about actionable proposals for bolstering our own understanding and users of media? There are two pieces there for whoever would like to answer.

Ms Celene Craig

I thank the Chair for the questions. In regard to the suite of regulatory tools, we set out quite a bit of detail in our original submission to Government in early 2019 as part of the Government's consultation around the formation of the media commission and the potential for online regulation.

I am delighted to say many of those recommendations have been taken up and are evident in the legislation, as currently drafted. I am pleased to note there is quite a wide range of regulatory functions and powers, in particular relating to online regulation. I would highlight, in particular, the power of the media commission to draw up its own codes. It will have very extensive investigative and auditing powers, which we would have recommended. We also made a strong recommendation that platforms be required to supply information to the media commission in a format to be designated by the commission. All that is very much embodied in the legislation. There is also an element of being able to future-proof some aspects of the regulation through, for example, the potential to extend the range of harms within its scope. All in all, we believe it is a very solid item of legislation, as currently drafted. It comprises a useful set of regulatory tools that will be available to support the commission’s work when it gets up and running.

As regards disinformation and misinformation, the BAI has been very active in this area, not least through our work at a European level. We are the Irish nominated body to the European Regulators Group for Audiovisual Media Services. We have played a very active role in dealing with disinformation and misinformation, which is a key concern of the commission. It is not covered in the legislation but I referred to the Digital Services Act coming down the path. The European Commission has high hopes it will certainly deliver better outcomes in terms of misinformation and disinformation. A voluntary code of practice has been compiled by a range of interests, including many of the platforms based in Ireland, but the voluntary nature of that code has not made it particularly successful. The BAI has undertaken a number of reports both regarding the European elections and disinformation in the context of Covid. Those three reports, which we have published and are available on our website, contain an extensive range of recommendations on how to deal with disinformation into the future. We are delighted to say the European Commission has strongly endorsed the Irish report's recommendations and has fed those into its recommendations, which are going through and will be worked through the European Commission’s proposals in this regard. We have a big concern about that issue. In terms of the sustainability of indigenous media and our traditional public service content providers, it rubber-stamps and reinforces our belief that there is a need to ensure their sustainability as a key mechanism for ensuring balanced and impartial democratic discourse, particularly against the wider backdrop of the extent of disinformation that can be available online. In general, we share the committee’s concerns. It is an issue that needs to be addressed but perhaps the Digital Services Act, and we will have to wait a few more months to see how it shapes up in its end form, may well deliver some solutions and means of addressing disinformation in the online space into the future.

Chairman

I have one final brief housekeeping question. I raised with the Tánaiste in the Dáil Chamber yesterday the publication of the report on the Future of the Media Commission. It is difficult for all of us, not least the witnesses, when we are working in a vacuum without having that information. As my colleague, Senator Cassells very eloquently and robustly put it, it is a pity we have not got it. We are certainly doing our best, as Government party members, to try to force its publication and then we can have a conversation on how we will fund media into the future. It is not only the war in Ukraine but Covid-19 also re-emphasised the importance of good research journalism and of presenting facts and it has refocused the public’s mind on where we are at with that and the importance of it.

On the transition from the BAI to the new media commission, and I am sure these are exciting times for the BAI, will Ms Craig advise me as to the size of her organisation, the number of people working in it, how she envisages it transitioning to the new media commission and what it should look like in practical terms?

Ms Celene Craig

Currently, our approved number is around 36 full-time equivalent staff. We currently have around 40 staff members in one guise or another. I will be honest and say our resourcing in recent years has been challenging, particularly as we transition to the media commission and, indeed, since BAI was established but we recognise it was established at a time when the economy was facing very severe difficulties. We have tried to adapt our systems and processes to adjust to the level of staff we have. Obviously, transition is a key priority. As my colleague, Ms Curtis, said, it is a is a key priority for the authority to ensure we transition effectively and that there is a smooth continuity of the BAI’s current functions. I would also add that we want to ensure the legacy, learning and knowledge that has been built up in the BAI does not get lost in that process of transition. We are working closely and collaboratively with the Department officials to ensure we can deal with some of those practical elements. There will be a significant scaling up. As I said, the analogy that has been frequently cited as a baseline would be the kinds of numbers that would apply to the Data Protection Commissioner's office. The figure of 180 has been discussed. Even scaling up to that level will take some resources and time. Once the media commission is established and fully functioning, it can also undertake its workforce planning exercises to ensure the full range of skills that are needed are available to the commission and to consider the numbers and designation of staff to different areas of responsibility.

Chairman

Are there people with those skills in Ireland or will we have to further afield to recruit the 180 staff who will be equipped to do this important work?

Ms Celene Craig

There is great interest in the media commission. I am aware of many people who would be interested in working with it. I am referring to people from abroad who have been watching what has been happening extremely closely. It is hard to explain this at times. Working at a European level and beyond that with other regulators, it is hard to explain the level of interest there is among those who are considering the area of online platform regulation. There is extensive interest and focus not only on what Ireland is doing but how it will do it and how the provisions of the legislation will be given effect by the media commission. I expect there will be significant interest both in Ireland and abroad in working with the media commission.

Chairman

Given that Ms Craig's organisation has only 40 staff and the commission will be scaling up to have 180 staff, what areas would the people with the required skills set come from to scale up the staff to that level?

Ms Celene Craig

In broad terms, there is a requirement for regulatory knowledge. Regulatory skills and principles can be transferable from one area of regulation to another but there is also a very strong need for good knowledge of how platforms work and operate, how content is moderated, or otherwise, by platforms and how it impacts users. It is important there would be a strong understanding in the media commission of how this affects users. When the BAI was developing its policy, which was an iterative process over a number of years, the authority has been extremely mindful of the importance of ensuring that regulation should serve ultimately the users of media services, whether it be on-demand services, online platforms or broadcasting services. The knowledge, the regulatory processes, policies and skills can be transferred to other areas of content regulation in on-demand services and in the online space but some more specific knowledge and expertise, some of which have been touched on, for example, data analytics, and knowledge of algorithmic processes and the impact on how content is delivered to users, will need to be developed and grow over time.

We believe, however, there will be very significant interest, particularly among those who are committed to serving the public interest, in working in the media commission.

Chairman

Ms Frances Haugen was before this committee a few months ago and she told us there were only around 200 people in the world who were qualified to do some of the work she was talking about. We may have to throw the net far and wide but, that being said, it is wonderful to see it actually happening. There is a bright future ahead and, it is hoped, an air of excitement within the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland about the transition to the media commission.

That concludes our proceedings for today. I wish Ms Curtis the very best in her new role and I wish Ms Craig the very best in what will be a new organisation and set-up. We look forward to further engagements with them both.

As the committee has discharged its duty under Standing Order 96, the meeting is now adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.01 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 April 2022.