Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate

Registration of Short-Term Tourist Letting Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Senator Warfield and Deputy Mythen. This meeting has been convened with representatives of the Irish Tourist Industry Confederation, ITIC, Airbnb, Expedia Group and Threshold, the national housing charity, to discuss the general scheme of the registration of short-term tourist letting Bill 2022. This is the committee's second public engagement in respect of the general scheme.

On behalf of the committee, I warmly welcome all our witnesses to committee room 1. From ITIC, I welcome Mr. Eoghan O'Mara Walsh, CEO, Ms Máire Ní Mhurchú, chair of the Irish Self Catering Federation, ISCF, and an ITIC member, and Mr. James Flynn and Ms Noelle Carey, members of Irish Self Catering Federation, who will be joining the meeting remotely via Microsoft Teams. From Airbnb, I welcome Mr. Derek Nolan, head of public policy in Ireland, and Ms Amanda Cupples, general manager for northern Europe. From Expedia Group-Vrbo, I welcome Ms Solveig Mayer, director of government and corporate affairs for western and northern Europe. From Threshold, I welcome Mr. Zak Murtagh, legal officer, and Mr. Gareth Redmond, policy and research officer.

The format of the meeting is as follows. I will invite witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which will be limited to five minutes. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish opening statements on its web page.

Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I wish to explain some limitations relating to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding reference that may be made to any person in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precinct is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses who give evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precinct are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given. They should respect decisions given by the Chair and observe the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as dragging a person's good name into disrepute.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings.

I propose that we start with the joint opening statement from Mr. O'Mara Walsh and Ms Ní Mhurchú.

Mr. Eoghan O'Mara Walsh

I am happy to keep it short because I will share time with Ms Ní Mhurchú. I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this short opening statement. As committee members will know, the tourism and hospitality sector is the largest indigenous industry in the country and the biggest regional employer. ITIC is the umbrella representative group for the sector. The self-catering sector is particularly important for Irish tourism and for decades has been part of the visitor experience. Tourism has rebounded strongly, which is the good news from Covid. However, there is concern and apprehension about the year ahead on a number of factors, including energy costs, softening demand, and global economic challenges. Tourism is the largest indigenous industry the country has and the biggest regional employer, with 20,000 businesses in the sector. Most of them are small or medium enterprises.

The difficulties for the year ahead are complicated by Government’s over-reliance on tourism accommodation bed stock to house Ukrainian refugees and asylum seekers. The latest data made available by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth show that 32% of all tourism beds in regional Ireland are contracted by the Government and thus no longer available to the tourism economy. In this context, the proposed sharp reduction short-term tourist lets is a concern for ITIC. The Government is understandably trying to increase the supply of long-term rentals but potentially onerous planning regulations risk denuding rural and coastal Ireland of self-catering properties just when additional tourism supply is most needed. ITIC fully supports the need for a register of short-term tourist rentals and is pleased that it is to be managed by Fáilte Ireland. It should give a clear and transparent overview of the sector and its regional spread and capacity. It is the potentially onerous planning regulations that concern ITIC. If planning is required across the country to operate a short-term tourist let, it is likely to reduce capacity greatly. Fáilte Ireland has estimated that there are around 30,000 short-term tourist lets in the State, and it believes that up to 12,000 properties will leave the short-term tourist let market.

ITIC accepts that urban centres in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and possibly Galway need more long term rental properties and thus reduced capacity of short-term tourist lets in these areas is understandable even though it will hurt the tourism industry. However, outside of these urban hotspots, there is a need for a proportionate, fair and balanced approach to short-term tourist lets. In our view, planning should not be required for a property outside a rent pressure zone, RPZ. Even within an RPZ, there needs to be a distinction between an urban RPZ and a regional RPZ. Currently, there are six local authority areas and 48 local electoral areas that are RPZs. This is expected to increase further. The idea of a short-term tourist let in Cobh, Killarney, Gorey or Kinsale requiring planning with potential refusal and-or onerous obligations has serious consequences. These, and many other rural and coastal tourism hubs, will need short-term tourist lets. It is vital for the local tourism economy. It is arguable whether these short-term tourist lets will ever go back to the long-term rental market.

It is a great frustration for industry that we have yet to see the proposed planning guidelines from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I understand the committee has asked to see them. These guidelines, their reach and penetration are critical to the subject.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address the forthcoming Bill. Threshold is a national housing charity that has been providing frontline services and help to people with housing problems in the private rental sector across Ireland since 1978. Since it was established, Threshold has advocated for a better housing system. In terms of the present crisis, last year Threshold was responsible for preventing more than10,000 adults and children from entering into a state of homeless. The well-documented supply crisis in Ireland’s long-term rental properties is not something I need to further address here today. Since 2018, Threshold has been campaigning for the regulation of short-term lets, as it became apparent that their popularity was disrupting the supply of long-term rental properties.

In terms of the forthcoming Bill, when enacted, Threshold's position is that we welcome anything that would result in a significant number of properties returning to the long-term rental market. We are aware that the figure that is being put forward most commonly is that by Fáilte Ireland of a potential 12,000 returning, which is significant and most welcome in this time of crisis. Our position on the Bill is that it is comprehensive. Having said that, there are a number of recommendations we would also make and I will turn to them now.

Firstly, the proposed Bill does not specify that people engaging in home sharing will be subject to the same requirements as others operating in the short-term letting market. We submit that this needs to be addressed more clearly within the Bill or set out in the associated regulations, with due consideration given to the administrative burden that would be placed on home sharers. I want to be absolutely clear that Threshold has never had any objection to people letting out a room in their principal residence on a short-term basis. Our core objective relates to entire apartments or homes, and the possibility of returning those to the long-term rental market. People renting out a room within their principal residence is something we have never objected to. Likewise, we have never raised objections to the rent-a-room scheme.

The second recommendation concerns the definition of short-term lets provided in the general scheme and the conflict with section 3A of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended. We note that there is a conflict between both pieces of legislation and we also note the extension in regard to the definition of what constitutes a short-term let from 14 to 21 days. We are seeking a further explanation as to why this extension has occurred.

Following on from that, we note that any updates to the Regulations for Short-Term Tourist Accommodation Rental 2018 on foot of amendments to the Tourist Traffic Acts must not remove the requirement to provide certificates of compliance with planning permission in order for a property to be eligible for registration on the register of short-term tourist lettings. Essentially, what we are getting at here is that we understand the legislative process will require revision of some of the existing registers that are already in place, and the requirements that are attached to them.

Turning to the definition of information society services as set out in the general scheme, we note that it is not a readily available definition and point to the definition provided by a European directive. We are seeking more clarity on this and a straightforward definition of what an information society service actually constitutes.

The obligation on information society services to collect and display registration numbers is of key importance. We recognise that the only requirement of information society services or platforms is to essentially make their best effort in regard to checking the validity of registration numbers. We do not believe this is sufficient. We believe it is a core aspect of enforcing compliance, and essentially the platforms or information society services have to share the burden in ensuring this process is effectively carried out in order to ensure this legislation has teeth.

Finally, the last of our recommendations relates to the financial sanctions in place. We feel that the financial sanctions that will apply under the forthcoming legislation in respect of the information society services are insufficient and unrealistic, and are not reflective of their turnover figures. The maximum financial sanction that can apply to them is €5,000, which pales in significance to the financial sanctions and punishments that can apply to proprietors, which can be as much as €50,000 and up to five years imprisonment for not being in compliance with the legislation.

We simply call for the revision of the potential sanctions that could apply to information society services, ISS, as I say, to be reflective of their turnover figures. Those are our core recommendations. If the members have any forthcoming questions, we would be happy to oblige.

That is okay. That is something we can watch out for, too.

Threshold put forward a very comprehensive submission. Reference is made in its opening statement to ensuring subsequent amendments to the 2018 regulations for short-term tourist accommodation rental and to maintaining the requirement to provide certificates of compliance with planning permission for a property. How important is that point? Could the witnesses emphasise that? They also flagged up their concerns about possible fines regarding the provider versus the host platform and the discrepancy between those. Perhaps the witnesses could speak on those matters.

Mr. Zak Murtagh

I will turn first to our recommendations in respect of providing certificates of compliance with planning permission for properties to be eligible. We recognise the discussion between planning permission in urban areas, rural areas and outside rent pressure zones. However, the fact is that previous registers have been in existence prior to the one being proposed now and there have always been regulatory requirements around this. Those in respect of planning permission exist for a reason.

The associate regulations that go along with that under the tourist traffic Acts essentially relate to the treatment not just of people who wish to be on the new register now but also in respect of the previous registers that have existed. We are conscious of potential different treatment occurring at this stage for the different kinds of people providing tourist accommodation in the country and the associate requirements that go along with that. Essentially, these relate to duties such as requirements to display room charges in premises as well as in online advertisements. In respect of the whole registry architecture that is in place, we feel that, at this stage, if a loose approach is taken to having to qualify for planning permission, there is a risk it will become readily available and probably too easy for properties to qualify as short-term lets. From our perspective, that could result in fewer properties returning to the long-term rental market.

On the Deputy's second point regarding the financial sanctions that will be in place under the Bill, we are emphasising here that the forthcoming Bill provides for quite significant penalisation of proprietors if they act in contravention of the Bill. We are simply saying that for the same level of compliance to be gained from the platforms, the monetary figure of €5,000 for a maximum fine that can be levied against them is completely insignificant in comparison with their turnover figures. Essentially, we want that to be revised in order for it to be given teeth and for it to be realistic in ensuring compliance.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. It is no harm to remind ourselves of the intention of this legislation and the intention of the register. Following on from Threshold's opening statement, it is not just to establish how many short-term tourism lets there are but also to try to get more long-term letting back into the market. It is something we all agree needs to happen. For several reasons, landlords have been leaving the market in their droves. We have not built enough houses and there has not been enough supply. There has been a huge knock-on effect for people seeking long-term rented accommodation.

We cannot lose sight of that, especially in urban areas.

I want to use the example of Kinsale, which is a town in my constituency. It is a popular tourism town but it is also a vibrant town to live in. What will be seen happening there, and people talk about it and people who visit our constituency offices will say, that people cannot get rental accommodation. This has a knock-on for people who are looking for people to fill vacancies, teaching posts and jobs in hospitals and in different sectors. It has a knock-on effect throughout. It is certainly something we need to tackle. People will say they search for rental property, they identify vacant premises and, in a significant percentage of those cases, they find those properties are on Airbnb. That is an issue. Kinsale is in a rent pressure zone. I would doubt whether the regulations of it being in a rent pressure zone are being pursued properly because an extraordinary portion of those properties are on Airbnb - probably more than should be in a rent pressure zone. That is the issue. It is something we all know is happening. We agree there is a shortage of rental accommodation.

That said, the points made by the Irish Self Catering Federation are spot on in terms of the impact it will have in rural areas in particular. While I have Kinsale in my constituency, I also have vast areas of the Wild Atlantic Way, and Ms Ní Mhurchú's boreen is one of those areas. Unless we listen to the calls of the Irish Self Catering Federation to do this in parallel with planning, we will potentially mess things up for rural Ireland and its economic vibrancy. There is a fear we will constrict rural economies that depend heavily on tourism, and I can see that happening.

Deputy Munster asked about some of the complications that could happen. I am already seeing these complications happening. People who have self-catering accommodation on the premises are already experiencing these difficulties with planning permission. They see this legislation coming down the tracks. They are trying to get their planning permissions through so they are compliant, and they are being refused left, right and centre. It is already happening. There could be an instance where somebody had planning permission, for example, for a granny flat. It was built for the purpose of catering for and looking after elderly parents. The elderly parents may have passed away and now they are using this unit to gain an additional income, as our witnesses have pointed out. However, it does not have planning for short-term letting; it has planning for a granny flat. When they go to rectify that, they are being turned down because the boreen is too narrow to accommodate extra traffic or perhaps because the wastewater treatment is older and not compliant. They are being turned down for a range of reasons. Unless we rectify the planning policy, we will lose accommodation throughout swathes of the west and south west – throughout the entire nation, to be honest. It will have a massive knock-on effect.

This needs to be done in conjunction with planning legislation. The sad reality is that when those granny flats or whatever they are do not get planning permission, they will not be used for short-term letting and they definitely will not be used for long-term letting either. They remain empty and vacant. That is something we cannot allow happen.

What if a unit does not get planning permission because the policy has not adapted? Planners, from what I can see, are against this type of unit anyway. In my experience in west Cork, they do not like them. I do not know what the issue is. If members of the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation do not get planning for these units because of the policy, where do they go? Do they go into long-term accommodation or are they just left vacant?

Ms Máire Ní Mhurchú

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank all the witnesses for joining us today for what will hopefully be a fruitful and productive discussion. I live in a small village in rural east Galway. Up until approximately five years ago, we never saw a tourist in our village or anywhere within close proximity to our village. With the advent of Airbnb, and the fact that we have three extraordinarily successful Airbnb hosts now operating within our community, I meet American, Scottish, French and Italian people on one of our local amenities; a wonderful forest walk of which we are very proud. There is no way in the wide, angry world that those tourists would have appeared in our community, and made an investment in our community while they were hosted there, without the advent of Airbnb. That is the simple fact of the matter.

Not alone does it allow those individual homeowners to showcase what they have to offer to the world; it allows them to showcase what east Galway has to offer to the world in terms of tourism. Aligned with that, through Airbnb's very clever algorithmic processes, it allows the people visiting to then look at all the other experiences that are available in east Galway and, indeed, slightly further afield.

We need to be exceptionally careful here in terms of how we are going to manage this, no question. Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan outlined Kinsale as one example. It is an issue that is repeated across a number of centres nationally whereby we see homes that could and should be made readily available for the rental market for people who need a home, as distinct from a place to stay. We need to be exceptionally careful, however. Mr. O'Mara Walsh at the very beginning of this discussion used the word "proportionate" in how we implement this process.

Increasingly across rural Ireland, from where Ms Noelle Casey is joining us this afternoon, we are seeing farm families finding it more difficult to survive and keep their farm businesses viable to ensure that they can send their kids to college and live a happy, successful life. That is becoming ever more difficult with a very difficult market in terms of securing prices for their produce and with an ever-moving regulatory regime moving underneath them. Having the additional income from the Airbnb or perhaps something on another platform is hugely important to those farmers who are seeking to sustain a life in rural Ireland. If we look at the agriturismo model in Italy, for example, more than 20,000 farmers are using that model, which is remarkably close to what Airbnb does in partnership with farmers here in Ireland. We need to be very careful. The nub of this issue, and Mr. Nolan, whom I welcome back to the Houses, by the way, made this point, is that at the heart of this debate are the new planning requirements associated with this legislation. Everybody is wholeheartedly supportive of the registration process and what that sets out to achieve. Aligned with that, however, there will be new a new regulatory environment from a planning perspective that we need to negotiate really carefully.

Ms Casey operates a short-term rental facility on her farm. Perhaps she would not mind outlining to us what that has meant to her in terms of her farm income and sustainability. What would Teagasc, our national farm advisory organisation, advise her and others to do to diversify in the future? What opportunities should she be looking out for and seeking to achieve? I would be very grateful if we could perhaps hear that first.

Ms Noelle Casey

I thank the Deputy for that question. When my now husband and I got engaged around 12 years ago, it was at the height of the recession. The milk price was on the floor. We are dairy farmers so we are a low-density farm as well. We do not have many animals and our land is mixed. We knew we had to diversify for the survival of the farm going forward.

At the time, we went to various information meetings and looked at all the different options for diversification. The one we decided to go ahead with was providing self-catering on part of the farm. My own background is hospitality, so I thought at the time it was a good fit. I have since then built up a business. I have a client in the United States who sends her guests over to me regularly. They stay here locally in Killarney. They visit the tourist attractions, spend money locally, take taxis, go to cafes etc. It is not only my business that is affected by this legislation; it is various tourism providers as well.

That is where we are at the moment. We are devastated at the moment. I am outside Killarney, but it is a rent pressure zone, RPZ. We should remember that if Killarney is not the top tourist town in the country, it is one of the top towns. The fact it is an RPZ now means we do not know whether we are coming or going. We were advised that if we went for planning and were turned down then legally, we would be in a weaker position than if we just decided we were not going to accept these new rules and took our case to the local judge to say we have been doing this business for longer than the seven-year rule and ask whether we can please continue what we are doing for our family. We would also be changing. If we wanted to hand over the house to our family going forward, we would not have the right planning permission. It is very scary at the moment. We are hoping now that the committee has been given the right information and guidance to make the good choices going forward for this legislation.

Thank you

An Cathaoirleach

I apologise to the witnesses for being late and thank Deputy Dillon for taking the Chair in my absence.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome all of the witnesses. I will begin with Ms Mayer's opening statement and her remarks about the changing face of the tourism sector. She said that people are no longer tied to urban areas but are spending time outside such areas in pursuit of the tourism offering. I wholeheartedly support that, as someone who comes from County Meath where, for decades, the main tourism sites such as the Hill of Tara and Newgrange, saw thousands of tourists put on big, shiny buses in the capital city and shipped down to Meath to enjoy the rarefied air and then they were brought back up on the bus to Dublin and the smog. They were then put into hotels and expensive restaurants. The value of the bed night and the spend in the area was lost to the good people of Meath because of the closed system of tourism operators. Of course, that has been broken by initiatives and the imagination of the sector that allows people to get out of the capital and come to Meath and to rural parts of Galway and Wexford. I agree with Ms Mayer's statement in that regard.

People will always find a way but of course, legislators can find a way to crush that as well, to crush the spirit. What we are doing here today, from my perspective, is advocating for a changed tourism offering and making sure that there is not an overburdening in respect of the legislative process; one that is happening across Europe and could permeate into here.

Ms Ní Mhurchú is aware of our engagements at previous meetings with the Departments of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Media and Sport and Housing, Local Government and Heritage, as well as with Fáilte Ireland. Did she share the enthusiasm of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and did its statements allay her fears?

Ms Máire Ní Mhurchú

I refer to Mr. Redmond's point about the difficulty with data. When Deputy Cannon and I asked questions of the Departments of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport, Gaeltacht and Media they finally admitted that these were back-of-the envelope calculations. Mr. O'Mara Walsh says that in the cities some long-term rental accommodation may become available, but if what is proposed by the Government at the moment proceeds, and that it is in the absence of awareness of the planning guidelines, how many properties do the witnesses believe will transfer from the short-term letting market into the long-term rental market? What evidence might they have to support that?

This is an important issue for the committee. It is something I raised when the two Departments and Fáilte Ireland were before us. We should be legislating and making policy on the basis of evidence and fact. There is no evidence before us to show that by the introduction of this legislation, in particular in the absence of the new planning guidelines, this will lead to a significant number of long-term rental accommodation units being made available. This is the concern that is being very clearly reflected. Dare I say, it is possibly notable that nearly all of those who have been raising questions on this have been Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Deputies and Senators from outside the major urban centres. The impact of something like this could be devastating on rural and coastal communities.

I appreciate the difficulties for Mr. Redmond in trying to get the data. I suspect we will see a small number of additional properties in some of the urban centres but no additional rental properties becoming available in rural and coastal areas. Like Ms Casey's situation, I know lots of coastal operators with a summer home where it is fine to stay in the middle of July and August but they will not convert that into a long-term rental for the year. In particular because of the support that has to be given to emergency accommodation, it will have serious implications. In light of the testimony today, but also after what I consider to be the rather disappointing evidence that was provided by the Departments, I honestly do not believe this legislation should proceed until we get sight of the planning guidelines and an assessment is made of their impact.

Second, we need more data. If the 12,000 figure could be stood up, we would be having a very different conversation in this room. I certainly do not think we can do that at the moment.

Perhaps Ms Casey or Ms Ní Mhurchú might want to respond to my next question. If the legislation does proceed, do they have any idea as to how many of those rural members may look to transfer into long-term accommodation? Have any of their members indicated they would do so?

Ms Máire Ní Mhurchú

I might let Ms Casey answer that because she is on a dairy farm.

Ms Noelle Casey

No, we would not be changing it as it is on our farm. It would be impractical so we would not do it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I have spoken with a lot of operators in Wexford as well and for a variety of reasons they are not in a position to do it. First, in many cases, the accommodation is not suitable for long-term rental, but even if it was it does not suit due to family circumstances, as outlined by Ms Casey.

I am keen to hear Threshold's view on this because there is always the fear that we are listening to the voices of the industry and people who are directly impacted. Is Threshold happy with the legislation to proceed as it is currently set out, in the absence of the planning guidelines?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

I might take this one. I will just share what is the common perspective, in that we are unhappy, as is everybody else, with the insufficient data in this regard. We recognise there are multiple decisions that go into the designation of what a property is ultimately used for and factors to be considered in terms of whether it is suitable to return to long-term rental purposes. To echo the point made by Senator Byrne, at this stage we are unhappy that there is not significant clarity around the data available. We regard to the figure of 12,000, that has been bandied about as being on the optimistic side of things without seeing further proof and a breakdown of the figure.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I will leave it at that. It may be coming out of this meeting that we need to write again to request further details on the data, plus an update on when the guidelines will be ready because it will be very difficult for the committee to continue with some of these discussions and for all of the bodies here otherwise. I am conscious that we have been in contact with the Department previously but I might formally suggest that we request further details because it will be very difficult for us as a committee to consider some of what is proposed without that information.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank Senator Byrne for his line of questioning.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank all the witnesses present today and Ms Casey and Mr. Flynn for joining us online. I welcome Mr. Nolan back to the jungle. I thank all the witnesses for their contributions. I was following the meeting online from the office.

An awful lot has been said on this matter today and at our previous meeting. To follow on from what Senator Byrne said, given the current position, it is clear that the proposed legislation is premature. We are operating in a vacuum in the absence of the planning guidelines. What this looks like to me is taking the nuclear approach to situation when what needs to happen is that the infantry needs to be sent in. What we are going to have is a huge amount of collateral damage and very little gain. We know that, especially in large urban centres, there has been a massive displacement of long-term properties into the short-term market, but the crudeness of the proposed legislation will result in an enormously negative impact in regional rural costal areas, where the acute impacts of the housing crisis are not being felt at present. I gave examples at the previous meeting of people in my constituency who will be negatively impacted by the proposed legislation. Their experiences are very similar to that of Ms Carey. From my perspective, proceeding any further without a radical rethink would be completely unconscionable. It is just the wrong approach to take. There is a problem, but this is not the way to solve it. I am very keen to see a response from the Department in respect of the concerns that have been expressed repeatedly by members and non-members of the committee.

I appreciate that Mr. Flynn has joined us. From his experience with Trident Holiday Homes, can he outline the type of customers he deals with? In terms of geographical location, where would the majority of his clients be based? Can he update the committee his general feeling regarding the online context? There is a huge problem here in that the general scheme is completely at odds with Government policy in other areas. One of the key things we have been trying to do in the tourism industry in recent years is take people out of Dublin and the east and move them to other areas of the country. I come from an area where, in the days before Airbnb - as Deputy Cannon will know - we saw very few tourists other than those who were passing through. There was no tangible benefit to our community. Now, people are staying, spending locally and enjoying the local walks. Facilities and amenities that were not previously official walks are becoming way-marked official trails. This was not the case previously. There has been a lot of positive change as well as a result of the likes of Airbnb. However, people who have spent a lot of money within the curtilages of their own properties, developing - as someone referred to earlier - little enterprises to keep them ticking over and to pay the bills, are being told that they are not going to get planning permission. This means that there investment has been in vain. These properties were never ever going to be long-term properties. It is just not right that this policy would be pursued and continued in the way it is currently drafted.

Another thing I am very passionate about is the development of greenways. We are looking to build a national network of greenways. These greenways will be going into communities that currently do not have them. If this proposed legislation were to be enacted, we would never have the facilities, the accommodation or the services to cater for the type of slow, sustainable tourism into which we are looking to position ourselves in the future. That matter should be the subject of serious consideration by the committee.

Mr. James Flynn

We represent a company called Trident Holiday Homes, which has been in this sector for about 35 years. We market approximately 500 holiday homes around the country. We sell approximately 10,000 holidays a year.

Deputy Griffin asked about the type of customers we have. Some 40% of our guests come to Ireland from overseas and 60% are domestic holidaymakers. They would not all necessarily be holidaymakers. We have companies that rent properties when they need accommodation for staff, which is particularly relevant now because many rural hotels have closed. We also provide short-term accommodation to families who are between houses, whose houses are being renovated or have been affected by pyrite and for all sorts of other reasons. If this proposed legislation is enacted and we apply the same rules across the board, Ireland will lose an entire block of accommodation stock that is essential for the sector. If that accommodation is not available, tourists will not come here. The people who make up 40% of those we bring in - by means of approximately 5,000 bookings per year - will go to Spain, Portugal and France instead. Irish people who holiday at home will not be able to find a house in Galway, Cork or Wexford. They will go overseas. To put it this way, Ireland Inc. would lose a huge volume of business as a result of what is proposed. we are very supportive of a register and of the need to create and open up extra housing stock in urban centres, but this proposed legislation applies the same criteria across the entire country. That needs to be recognised and tackled. It is not the case that the same rule should apply in Dublin 4 as in Clonakilty. They are not part of the same problem.

We are also concerned that people will go to the black market and that this business will go underground. People will not advertise in Airbnb or with us; they will start advertising with websites overseas. We are already hearing reports of this. Overseas websites are getting involved and contacting owners and stating that because they are based in Malta, America or outside the jurisdiction of the EU, the Government cannot apply its rules to them. Business will be driven overseas, and that will mean rogue operators coming in. No one will be able to police this. There are a few ways the sector could be affected. We have to be very careful with the rules that will be being brought in by means of this proposed legislation. We have to try to allow the genuine, legitimate people who have been in this business for 20 years, many of whom we represent, to continue to operate. They are a valuable part of Ireland's tourism offering.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I welcome our guests. I was in the Seanad up to now. I apologise for missing the beginning of the session. I am pretty much in agreement with many of my colleagues. I am a member of a Government party and I come from a rural area. I am involved with County Longford tourism and have been for a long number of years. We have been trying to build a product in a county that was miles away from the routes taken by many bus tours and others. I worked with a colleague, former Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran, who will be quite well-known to the committee, to highlight the need for a tourism product in the midlands. We successfully got this included in the programme for Government and ultimately developed the Hidden Heartlands brand name. Having another brand was not on the radar for Tourism Ireland but we were successful. It has proved to be successful because there is a need for slow, easy tourism which is off the main highways and byways of Ireland's Ancient East, the Wild Atlantic Way and gets people out of the cities.

I am not in favour of this proposed legislation proceeding as drafted. A figure of 12,000 was mentioned. I do not think that is realistic, to be quite honest. I do not think this legislation should go ahead until we see sight of guidelines, etc., in relation to it. My view is that it needs to be set aside for 12 or 18 months. We have a situation at the minute. if you were looking to come down to visit my own home county and area, you probably would not get a place to stay at all at present. I do not want to see a situation where we implement legislation which completely rules out any sort of accommodation and sees other people pulling out of the market. I do not think now is the time for us to be dealing with this. I fully agree with the registration process. That is important. While working with Tourism Ireland, we always tried to push everybody to register to ensure we have a set standard across all accommodation.

That is a must.

I apologise if my next question has been asked already. It concerns international providers, such as Airbnb and Expedia, operating in other European countries where legislation similar to what is being proposed here has been introduce. What have the results been? Is there a similar example European wide?

Ms Amanda Cupples

I can start and others can pitch in if they want to. All sorts of regulatory schemes have been brought in in countries all around the world. We work with all of them. Some of them work better than others. I can give the Senator chapter and verse on why that is.

From an Airbnb perspective, where a large part of our host base are hosts like the ones the committee has talked about today, that is, real people and families who often live in their homes are sharing a space, what is very clear is that the existence of conditions, be they planning or licensing, requires a lot of steps to be taken, cost, complexity or sheer confusion, the existence of those barriers, paradoxically, takes out of the market the people we do not want to take out. Professional hosts are able to navigate expensive and burdensome regulations. Our average hosts, who earn €5,000 to €6,000 per year, are the ones who want to leave the market. Those sharing rooms withdraw that accommodation, which, of course, does not go onto the long-term market. We see that pattern repeated again and again around the world.

I have referred to countries where systems work really well. Registration systems that can provide the evidence base we have spoken about today, comprising the type, volume and nature of short-term letting activity in a geographic area, can be used to make robust planning policy decisions, supported by evidence. We are very strongly in favour of that process taking place. We are extremely respectful and supportive of the ability of local authorities to make those decisions.

Our experience internationally is that the factors that go into planning are often very localised. The idea that we simply lay down the same set of rules to cover a whole country very rarely works in terms of achieving objectives. Our experiences is of a two-step process which involves a registration system that effectively gives us an evidence base around short-term letting and we then allow regulators at the appropriate level to make decisions that balance the needs of preserving the tourism economy and protecting housing at the appropriate level. That is the right way to do it. We welcome the opportunity to work with regulators all around the world.

As I said, we have written books on this internally . We would be happy to provide to the committee some case studies on where this has worked well in Europe. We can follow up in writing if that would be helpful.

Mr. Derek Nolan

Before coming back to Ireland to take on a role with Airbnb, I worked in Australia for Airbnb. We introduced a registration system in New South Wales. It decided what kind of a short-term tourism industry it wanted, what was good stock and where they want it. It encouraged farm stays and bringing people out of cities. It created a framework for all of that first. There was huge stakeholder engagement across the country. It spoke to short-term hosts, industry and the equivalent of ITIC and our self-catering federation, locked in that information and then introduced registrations to make sure everyone was abiding by the rules.

Talking about registration in the absence of deciding what we want is why we are at somewhat of a loggerhead. We have not decided what kind of a tourism industry we want. There are hosts all over the country. People have converted granny flats or built or renovated houses beside old houses on curtilage. These types of properties are showing up on Airbnb as entire home listings, but will never be long-term rentals. We need to solve that.

We talk about planning. The nub of short-term letting is that people try it out for a weekend and see how it goes. If that goes well, they then do it for subsequent weekends and perhaps a summer. That is how it starts. If there is a requirement to go to Galway County Council, fill out forms, pay money and speak to people, no one will do that in order to provide accommodation at weekends. We need to create a way for ordinary people to dip their toe in the water and see if they like it without having to go through the planning requirements.

If things get to a certain level, perhaps that could change. We need to make it easy for people to do it. If we want the sharing economy that everyone says they want, it has to be easy for ordinary people to do this. Navigating county councils, planning forms, putting up site notices and so on is difficult in the most normal of circumstances. It will strangle casual people participating in the industry.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

As Deputy Griffin mentioned, we are investing millions in developing a national network of greenways. One is about to open connecting Dublin to Galway city by, it is hoped, 2025. A lot of that tourism activity will be directed towards the hidden heartlands, a large region of the midlands of Ireland which has received little or no tourism investment or revenue in my lifetime. There is no question but that the kind of people who have farms along the route of those greenways and across the country are being presented with an extraordinary opportunity to showcase what they have to offer.

As Mr. Nolan said, this will lead to a tentative dipping a toe into a business, seeing whether it will work and whether someone will generate something interesting that will generate a trickle-down effect in the local community. We need to be exceptionally careful that we do not suppress that kind of spontaneity. This is a critical moment in the development of the tourism business in rural Ireland and we need to get it right. It is as simple as that.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I approached people in my county to try to sell the opportunity of the Royal Canal in particular. We started the project in Longford in 2012 and it has now morphed up to Dublin and from Dublin to Galway. There is a unique opportunity there. We held seminars with Fáilte Ireland and encouraged people to set up cafes, cycle shops, farmhouses and accommodation to make sure we benefit from it. We are jumping ahead of ourselves and could possibly damage something we invested a lot of time in.

As was said, a lot of this concerns regional parts of the country rather than the cities. I do not think the figure of 12,000 is at all realistic. That headline figure is constantly bandied about, but realistically a low percentage would become available for long-term housing. We cannot shoot ourselves in the foot for short-term gain and destroy a long-term tourism industry. Between 2011 and 2014 we reduced the VAT rate. The industry rebuilt and now employs over 260,000 people in the country. We need to get out the microscope again, examine this and be realistic.

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome Deputy Crowe. He has a lot to say about the tourism industry in County Clare.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thought the Cathaoirleach said I was only to speak on Cavan issues.

An Cathaoirleach

We did not get there yet.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Cathaoirleach for accommodating me. I followed the early part of the debate and had to nip into another committee for a while. I have read the opening statements and followed most of the debate. I thank the witnesses for their presence.

The job security is a bit better in this job. Talking to the hosts, you get a sense of who they are and why they are hosting. The majority of our hosts, and this is a truism, are ordinary people who share their own home for an average of three days per month. They make approximately €5,000 or €6,000 per year. That is the vast majority of our listings. Of those who have entire home listings, it is people who have holiday homes or converted properties. If one talks to people about why they are in the short-term rental market, it is often because they cannot be in the long-term rental market. It is either a holiday home, the family home, or a property they inherited from their parents and is shared with their brother, and for those months of the year it is a short-term rental. The property may not be suitable. As Senator Byrne said, properties on the Wexford coast are lovely in summer but not great in winter and one would not want to be staying in them at that point. There are all of those different factors at play and that is what is missing from some of the debate here. It is not binary that short-term letters will move over. Many of our hosts tell us that they cannot or will not be able to transfer over to the long-term rental market. Registration is important. What the Government is trying to do about getting the balance right between long-term rental and short-term rental is a good goal and registration will help that. What I do not think has happened is that enough consideration has been given to what that balance is.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I conclude by thanking everyone. The pubic relations end of Airbnb could be helped if that headline figure was refined more and if we knew what were full homes versus tree houses or yurts. It would paint a much clearer picture of what is real accommodation. It is all real accommodation if a person is holidaying somewhere in the country for a night or two, but it is an entirely different thing if this has to become a family home and someone is pitching in for it. Refining that headline figure would help Airbnb's cause and our cause and would define things an awful lot better.

There is huge sense to what Ms Ní Mhurchú said earlier. I listened to her contribution and what she interfaced with in terms of the planning difficulties is what I am now starting to hear in my own constituency. What planners, architects and anyone trying to help someone in her situation tell me is that they feel that policy guidance documents are not fully aligned with this legislation at the moment. Maybe one is outpacing the other, and for that reason it might be prudent to get the planning end of things straightened and defined so that Ms Ní Mhurchú can make an informed decision as to whether she wants to remain in short-term and tourism rental versus maybe making that home available for someone. She can only do that if her business is legitimised, and at the moment, the way this is manifesting itself it puts huge question marks over the legitimacy of things. It will not be long before others, including the insurance industry, fall in behind that and start to question the very validity of what people like Ms Ní Mhurchú is doing and suddenly there are major question marks. There needs to be an alignment of two things here. I believe the thrust of this legislation is positive, but how we do it can be better refined. I am sorry I ignored some of the witnesses but my main thrust of questioning was on this headline figure.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I had a chance to listen in on some of it and read over documents as well. I will try not to go back over too much old ground. The rent pressure zones, RPZs, in particular are large and are almost like a blunt instrument approach. There is such variety across the RPZ, from the edge of Cork city in Ovens right out to Gougane Barra which is in the same electoral area in Macroom. If it is not to be determined according to RPZs, do the witnesses have a view on whether there some better way of doing it or a variation on that? I would be interested to hear.

Bhí an ISCF ag plé cheana féin agus ag lorg go mbeadh clárú ar fáil. Anois, tá dréacht anseo os ár gcomhair. Cén deacracht atá ag na finnéithe leis? An bhféadfaidís míniú a thabhairt air sin? Cad í an fhadhb go díreach? Maidir leis na RPZs, tá an-chuid acu mór fairsing agus ag síneadh ó bhruachbhailte ar imeall na cathrach siar go dtí, cur i gcás, Guagán Barra. Bheadh éileamh difriúil ar thithíocht agus brú difriúil sa dá áit.

Conas a dhéanfadh na finnéithe é sin a láimhseáil? An bhfuil aon mholadh acu mar gheall air sin? Má thagann an reachtaíocht seo isteach agus má bhrúnn sí daoine amach as Airbnb agus mar sin de, an bhfuil an margadh eile, sé sin, an margadh fadtéarmach, tarraingteach? Cad a thabharfadh daoine sa treo sin? Is the long-term market attractive to hosts? What would make it attractive to some of them?

Ms Máire Ní Mhurchú

Níl aon fhadhb leis an mBille é féin. Teastaíonn uainn go mbeadh clárúcháin ann. Nuair a thosaigh mise gnó os cionn 20 bliain ó shin, bhí córas clárúcháin ag Fáilte Ireland agus caitheadh amach an doras é in 2007. In 2009, caitheadh amach an Gulliver booking system a bhí aige agus anois tá sé ag tabhairt ceann ar ais. Tá gá le clárúcháin, ach an fhadhb leis na clárúcháin ná go bhfuil ceist á cur an bhfuil ceadúnas pleanála ag daoine le haghaidh short-term rental, STR. Mar a fuarthas amach i gCill Áirne an oíche faoi dheireadh, níl sé fiú ar an liosta ag an gcomhairle contae mar áit gur féidir pleanáil a fháil. Tá óstáin, bed and breakfasts, na guesthouses agus caravan and camping ann ach níl aon tithe féin-lóistín ar an liosta acu so ní féidir pleanáil a fháil ansin.

Maidir leis na RPZs, tá éileamh difriúil sna cathracha ná mar atá sna háiteanna iargúlta. Is as áit iargúlta sinn beirt. Tá gá le turasóirí teacht go dtí na háiteanna iargúlta, fanacht ann agus airgead a chaitheamh ann. Ba chóir go mbeadh slí shimplí ann do na daoine sin ceadúnas pleanála a fháil, gnó a bheith acu agus dul ar aghaidh leis an ngnó. Sna cathracha, is rud difriúil é. Tá liostaí tugtha againn don Roinn Tithíochta, Rialtais Áitiúil agus Oidhreachta - ceann gairid agus ceann fada – leis na fáthanna gur chóir cead a bheith ag daoine fanacht á dhéanamh seo. An chéad fháth ná má tógadh an tigh mar thigh féin-lóistín sa chéad áit. Bhí grúpaí timpeall na tíre maidir leis sin. Baineann an dara ceann le riail an tseanathar, sé sin, dá mbeadh duine á dhéanamh le haghaidh seacht mbliana nó níos mó go mbeadh cead acu dul ar aghaidh. Má fuair duine deontais le haghaidh an ghnó, ba chóir dóibh a bheith ábalta dul ar aghaidh leis an ngnó sin freisin. Tá timpeall deich riail dhifriúla curtha le chéile againn agus tugtha againn bliain ó shin don Roinn i bhfeighil turasóireachta. Tá liosta níos faide againn. Tá eolas ar glamping tugtha againn agus rudaí eile. Níl aon rud tagtha ar ais ón Roinn Tithíochta, Rialtais Áitiúil agus Oidhreachta.

Bhain an cheist eile leis an margadh fadtéarmach. Ní rachaidh daoine ar ais go tithíocht fhadtéarmach. Níl formhór de na tithe maith go leor le haghaidh tithíocht fhadtéarmach. Tá an-chuid ban ag obair sna gnóthaí beaga seo, formhór acu os cionn 45 bliain d’aois, agus ní bheadh siad compordach ná sásta duine a bheith ar an láthair go fadtéarmach. Oiriúnaíonn rudaí sealadacha dóibh ach ní rachaidh siad ar ais go dtí an system fadtéarmach.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

The same question applies to the other witnesses. Have they a recommendation on how they would deal with the issue of the RPZs? There is obviously a demand or huge pressure for housing in some areas. How would they approach the RPZs? If people are going to be pushed away from short-term letting, would they find going towards the long-term market attractive? What would make it attractive to them?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

The question is valid. There has been a bit of a shift in emphasis in respect of the rental platforms. They have been putting forward a view of the proprietors as often being quite niche small-scale operators, maybe in rural areas looking to get extra income or potentially putting a room in their principal residence up for rent and all of that. That is one side of the debate. The reality is that in the major cities in this country, where we have clearly designated rent pressure zones, there are properties being let short-term. We have all been around the houses on this 12,000 figure today and I am not going to comment further on the validity of that. However, it would be disingenuous to suggest there are not properties within the major cities of Ireland, which are designated rent pressure zones, being taken away from the long-term rental market by virtue of the fact they are being continuously used as short-term lets. I accept the fact there may be further tweaks needed to this legislation. As I said, our first recommendation was to focus on home-sharers and that perhaps we need to classify exactly which aspects of the forthcoming legislation specifically apply to them. Let us not lose sight of the issue from our perspective within Threshold that there will still be a significant number of properties returned. We have heard a lot of discussion about the obstacles in place and planning rules being the elephant in the room preventing a return of certain types of accommodation to the long-term rental market. That certainly does not mean a significant proportion of them will not be returned in rent pressure zones.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tá brú ann i gcomhair tithíochta agus tá céimeanna anseo chun rudaí a bhrú ar aghaidh. Teastaíonn uainn treoir a fháil ar cad í an tslí is fearr tríd. Gabhaim buíochas as an deis.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

Mr. Derek Nolan

We can give figures more broadly but we do not have a county-by-county breakdown that we can release.

Deputy Alan Dillon

As regards the concerns of Threshold, there was reference earlier to the figure of more than 12,000 long-term properties that could be brought back into the rental market that was presented by Fáilte Ireland. In previous discussions at the committee, we tried to better understand how that figure was put together. We were informed it was a scraping exercise across all platforms. We do not have hard data at present in terms of the potential of the proposed legislation to bring more properties back into long-term letting. Is that concern shared by the witnesses?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

I would say the important thing for tourism, the committee and for the country is for us to have a rational discussion about what kind of short-term tourism letting market we want and what are the positives that it can bring, to rural Ireland and urban Ireland. Think about festivals, matches and games that happen in Dublin for example. Without short-term tourism capacity, people renting out their own home or a spare room, there is not the capacity to deal with St. Patrick's Day, for example, or all those big festivals. The next thing is to start carving out types of use cases that keep coming up. People have been doing short-term rentals for years. As for self-catering in rural Ireland, how should rural Ireland be treated differently to rent-pressure zones? We need to really tease out where that balance is because that is the most important discussion, namely, what do we want the sector to look like. Then, when we have that done, we can decide that these are the rule that are in place. I firmly believe they should be done in a way that encourages people to participate so that you do not have to go through the planning process as much as possible. Once that is up and running, you bring in the registration system and you can understand then what the market is like. If you look at the data, you can see how things are going and if there are areas we think need to be tweaked, then the Oireachtas can always come back in. That is my view: we should take a breath. As Housing for All says, it is about getting the balance right between long-term rental accommodation and tourism. As I said, there is a lot at stake. For Mayo it is €25 million in guest spending which is a lot of money in Mayo. For Kerry it is €65 million. There is a lot of money, jobs, livelihoods and people who depend on this income, as Ms Ní Mhurchú said, for their pensions, for their income for their retirement and to pay for the properties that are actually there. Let us just do that bit of work first; spend a bit of time on it and get it right. That is the thing that I think is the right thing to do.

Ms Solveig Mayer

I would also suggest looking at the registration scheme; get it set up in compliance with the EU legislation and get the data. The data are key because then you can know where the properties are and how many and you can then get in contact as an authority with the owners and partners and you will get a better view. Do that first. That would be my view. In the interim, you would not link it with licensing or with the planning permission because from what I understand there is some lack of clarity. I am based in Germany. There are a few examples where registration schemes are linked with authorisation and change-of-use systems and it does not work because it is such a cumbersome procedure to apply for. It really scares away people, hosts and partners. It is not the way to go. The way to go is to get the data and then make evidence-based decisions and regulation and then set up the scheme online with an immediate sending out of a registration number. There should be low thresholds and it should be at a low cost, if possible. You would have the data and work with those first and then the next step should follow.

Ms Máire Ní Mhurchú

Portugal set up a registration system, which was very successful. It had a 98% compliance rate which is really high. That was five to seven years ago and it is now looking at the planning situation. It has taken the time. It has set up the register, which in this case was free. I put it in contact with Fáilte Ireland and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to see how its systems worked. It worked really well. In other words, five to seven years later it is now looking at its long-term requirements for self-catering.