Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2010

Manufacture of Uilleann Pipes: Discussion with Na Píobairí Uilleann.

I warmly welcome our two guests, Mr. Gay McKeon, chief executive officer, and Mr. Seán Potts, president, Na Píobairí Uilleann. They are very welcome.

I must advise them that by virtue of 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members of this committee have absolute privilege, however, I wish to remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will commence our consideration of this topic by making some brief comments. It is a great honour to have Gay McKeon and Seán Potts here to talk about the uilleann pipes and the importance of promoting and supporting the manufacture of them in Ireland. This is a subject close to their hearts but it is also close to the hearts to the members of this committee who have a knowledge of this area and are aware that we have with us here today some of the greatest and most renowned of musicians. The uilleann pipes are an instrument synonymous with Ireland. Mr. Potts introduced it to many parts and cultures of the world in his tours with The Chieftains and others. It is exclusively ours, the music is made here and the musicians are home grown. Therefore, it is only logical that the instrument should also be made here. We are interested in facilitating this process and have invited our guests in order that we can do so. They are very welcome. Mr. McKeon will speak first.

Mr. Gay McKeon

On behalf of the board and members of Na Píobairí Uilleann, NPU, we thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the invitation to make this presentation.

NPU operates in the traditional Irish arts music sector. Our primary focus is the uilleann pipes, fostering the playing of the pipes and the manufacture of an instrument that is uniquely Irish. Our vision is to make uilleann piping a major music activity worldwide. We will talk a little about the heritage, the evolution of the instrument and its manufacture. We have been working on a project for a number of years to establish a pipe making training course to promote the industry in Ireland. We have taken many steps in that process and are now at the stage of seeking funding to help us train to people who wish to learn how to make the uilleann pipes. In that regard, €170,000 a year is required for the next five years, or a total of €850,000.

Each generation of pipers has left a significant legacy. The uilleann pipes were almost extinct after the Famine. It is a hugely iconic instrument of Ireland. The cultural revivalists of the 19th century brought together the remaining uilleann pipers in Ireland for the Feis Ceoil in Dublin in the late 1800s, following which the pipers clubs of Dublin and Cork were founded. The tradition was at a very low ebb at the time. Individuals such as Éamonn Ceannt tried to revive the pipers club in Dublin, as well as the manufacture of the pipes. Unfortunately, after 1922 the impetus was lost. Individuals such as Seamus Ennis and Leo Rowsome tried to keep the tradition alive through various events and tuition, but by 1968 there were fewer than 100 uilleann pipers in the world. There was only one full-time maker of pipes, Leo Rowsome, who sadly died in 1970. The population of pipers was resident in Ireland, Britain and the United States.

There were only two hobby pipe makers and one part-time pipe maker in Ireland. That was the entire number of uilleann pipe makers in the world. Leo Rowsome, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Moloney who travelled with The Chieftains and Ceoltóirí Chualann and Breandan Breathnach were founding committee members of Na Píobairí Uilleann, an organisation dedicated to the protection and promotion of the playing and making of the uilleann pipes. What is so special about them? It is a very complex instrument, probably the most complex in the world. Its maintenance and manufacture require a highly skilled wood turner, metal turner, leatherwork and the skills of a jeweller. Musically, one must have very strong musical skills to balance the pipes and get them working.

Since the foundation of NPU, the landscape for traditional music generally and uilleann piping has improved. There are now over 6,000 uilleann pipers in the world and over 60 makers of uilleann pipes. Sadly, the craft has waned a great deal in Ireland in terms of the number of makers here relative to the number in the rest of the world. There are fewer than 20 uilleann pipe makers in Ireland and more than 40 outside. The leading pipe makers in terms of turnover reside in the United States, Britain, France, Canada and Germany. The committed group of uilleann pipe makers in Ireland is doing a very good job. However, this instrument and its sound are considered uniquely Irish and people want it to remain such. They want the craft to be followed in Ireland in order that they can come here to visit pipe makers. There is an opportunity in that regard.

The challenge for this generation of uilleann pipers is to ensure people can get instruments when they require them. In that context, we believe we can create at least 30 additional jobs. Even the components such as the bag and the bellows are being imported from Canada and Scotland. No one in this country is making them and it does not require a very high level of skill. The 30 jobs could be created very quickly.

Na Píobairí Uilleann is a very vibrant cultural organisation which has benefited hugely from a strong volunteering ethos in the areas of research, tuition and promotion. We have many volunteers in communities of uilleann pipers throughout the world. They see the uilleann pipes as a uniquely Irish brand. Because of the increased interest in the instrument, we conducted a number of surveys in recent years. We have surveyed the players, the makers and those interested in undergoing training. We value the current back orders for uilleann pipes at €7 million. That might appear to be a large number, but the average price of a full set of pipes is €10,000. It can be up to €20,000 for a bespoke customised sets of pipes made in the style of the classic makers who operated in this city in the 1700s and 1800s.

Apart from the back orders and the economic activity, young people are being denied the opportunity to get instruments in the important formative years when they are teenagers. I know the uilleann pipes community very well, but my children had to wait for more than eight years to get full sets of uilleann pipes. That is the situation for the majority of young people. They cannot aspire to obtain the instrument quickly. Two uilleann pipers played at a major concert we held in Liberty Hall, the ancient uses of piping concert, last Saturday night. One set of uilleann pipes was made in America while the other was made in France.

Na Píobairí Uilleann is very effective in project management. The Arts Council has given us great support during the years and particularly in recent years with pipe making. We have also worked with the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport, Dublin City Council, the Heritage Council, the Crafts Council of Ireland, FÁS and various others. Seán Potts, Paddy Moloney and other founding members have brought this legacy forward and helped to develop it, with Irish traditional music in general, in conjunction with many other organisations. Our organisation has a very good organisational record and strong volunteer involvement.

Our headquarters is located at 15 Henrietta Street. We acquired the building under a 99 year lease from Dublin City Council in 1982. It was in very poor condition, but our members contributed their professional skills as architects, engineers and so forth to restore the magnificent heritage building. The public funding we received was approximately €1.45 million, but anyone would agree it would cost well in excess of €3 million to restore a building of that nature to such an extent. There was "in kind" work, while Seán Potts toured the United States to raise money and many other musicians became involved. We have a strong record of voluntarism.

In recent years we have conducted surveys, identified the level of demand and sought support. We recently signed a lease on a 2,400 sq. ft. industrial unit at the Port Tunnel Business Park in Clonshaugh, County Dublin, which we are fitting out with the necessary equipment. That work will be finished in early November. It is a bespoke, customised pipe making training centre and we are now seeking the funding to secure the best skilled people in the world to come here and train Irish people, re-establish the craft in Ireland and make it stronger than ever. The instrument and the sound are unique. Irish people watch the films "Braveheart" and "Titanic" and hear uilleann pipes. They go to Riverdance and concerts around the world. The instrument identifies Ireland. It is our instrument and our craft and we should re-establish it in Ireland.

We have done much work as an organisation and received great support from the Arts Council and other bodies such as the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport. We want to offer our skills and expertise as an organisation. We filmed the top uilleann pipe makers around the world and will launch that film on our website later this month.

There has been no provision for the transfer of skills, no mentoring schemes other than what we do in an informal way and no training courses. We want to establish something sustainable for the long term. We ask for the committee's support. We need to get €170,000 per year for the next five years and that is what we ask for today.

I thank Mr. McKeon. That was very interesting and well put together in a short time. I call on Mr. Potts to speak and will then ask members to contribute.

Mr. Seán Potts

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus a choiste uilig. Mr. McKeon outlined the situation very distinctly and I have very little to add. I emphasise that the uilleann pipes have become an iconic instrument, not only in Ireland but throughout the world among people who are interested in traditional Irish music. In my travels abroad, I always found that although there was interest in the concert in general there was particular interest in the pipes played by Paddy Moloney. When Planxty came on the scene I received letters from people in America, not about Planxty but asking "Who is this fellow Liam O'Flynn who played the pipes?" There is terrific interest in the instrument and the trouble with it is that demand has exceeded supply. We are in dire straits as a result, as we were in 1968 when Na Píobairí Uilleann was founded. There was a shortage of uilleann pipers. We have more or less conquered that aspect but are in trouble now because we do not have enough instruments coming on stream for the pipers who are coming along.

Na Píobairí Uilleann has classes every Tuesday which are producing young pipers. It is incredible to see the development of the instrument and the playing. These youngsters coming along at 13 or 14 years of age currently have to wait approximately seven or ten years before they can get a set of uilleann pipes. I can guarantee members that many of them will go off the boil, to the detriment of the music and the instrument.

All we can do is urge the various committees who will listen to us to consider that situation and the dangers of losing the instrument. It is a wonderful craft. I am sure many members will have heard the great Leo Rowsome. One can see how popular he was during the 1940s and 1950s until his death in 1970. There were Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy and Tommy Reck and many other men who were very strongly involved in the music during those years. We must keep that up. One can sell Irish music. It is a great source of income to this nation, believe it or not. Look at the crowds that attend Fleadh Ceoil na hÉireann every year and those who attend the Willie Clancy summer school and the various summer schools throughout the country.

I am promoting uilleann pipes. There are fiddles, flutes and everything else but it is very important the great art involved in making this instrument is maintained. As Mr. McKeon outlined very forcefully, we have started by acquiring and fitting out the premises in north county Dublin. We hope to start with that very soon but we need the money.

I urge the Cathaoirleach and the coiste to consider this and, if they can see their way to doing so, to try to help us continue with this great art. Go raibh maith agaibh.

I thank Mr. Potts. Deputy Cyprian Brady requested that the committee should meet the delegates and I am very pleased we did. I shall ask the Deputy to speak shortly. The committee is very pleased to meet as many people as possible who are doing great work in the area of arts and culture. The uilleann pipes is a fantastic instrument. Many of us came to Dublin in the days of Planxty and others and heard people such as Liam Óg O'Flynn, Paddy Moloney of The Chieftains, Mr. Potts and others. We are very conscious of the great pleasure and privilege we experienced from hearing the instrument and Mr. Potts' contemporaries. It is great to see the way uilleann pipes are being used now and how Irish players add to other artists worldwide, such as Dire Straits and others, who use the pipes in a very interesting way. We can see how the uilleann pipes have become global. However, there is a unique Irish characteristic to the instrument.

I shall put some questions later but I call Deputy Brady to whom Deputy Deenihan has given way. Normally, we start with the Fine Gael spokesperson.

I acknowledge Deputy Deenihan's courtesy. I welcome my old friends, Messrs. McKeon and Potts. When I spoke to Na Píobairí Uilleann on this issue it struck me how much potential existed, not only for Irish traditional music but for the country as a whole. When one considers the estimated back order of more than €7 million one can see this is an ideal opportunity to tap into that market.

I am privileged to have Henrietta Street in my constituency and have watched the progress and flowering of Na Píobairí Uilleann there in recent years. I am always struck by the vibrancy of the place. Mr. Potts mentioned the young people involved. It amazes me that the pipes are such a particular attraction for young people. As was outlined, the fear is that if it is not possible for these young people to practise what they have learned they will be lost, to the detriment of the country.

The other aspect of the Henrietta Street premises is that it is not only about the pipes. There is a considerable work of education and tutoring, and archival of the historical end of traditional music in general, which plays a big part of what Na Píobairí Uilleann are concerned with.

The international reputation which has been built up is an enormous selling point for the organisation and it did not happen on its own. This committee has heard about the potential of and emphasis put upon cultural tourism. This, again, is a great opportunity to go out and sell Ireland. Mr. McKeon mentioned Riverdance. That Irish act was the only foreign act to appear on national television in China for that country's New Year celebrations and was seen by almost 2 billion people. It involved the pipes and traditional music.

There are employment and economic opportunities here. The industry of pipe making has moved abroad away from Ireland and has now been overtaken. This is a uniquely Irish instrument that requires a uniquely Irish ability to play it well. I strongly support the suggestions made to the committee by Na Píobairí Uilleann regarding the continuing promotion and enhancement of the reputation of the uilleann pipes.

I join with the Chairman and Deputy Cyprian Brady in welcoming both Mr. McKeon and Mr. Potts to the committee.

I want to recognise the work of Na Píobairí Uilleann in the preservation of the uilleann pipes. Without their organisation, the uilleann pipes might be merely history. Certainly, the instrument would not be thriving but for their organisation.

I also want to recognise the interesting short pamphlet issued by Na Píobairí Uilleann. We receive a great deal of material through the post here in the Dáil and while we may not look at all of it, I always look at that one and really enjoy it. It is of a high standard.

There is a strong historical tradition of the uilleann pipes in north Kerry, where I come from. There was a very famous piper named Thomas Carty who was born in the 18th century, lived through the 19th century and died in the 20th century aged 104. Every Sunday he used to play the uilleann pipes on the Castle Green in Ballybunion — some of those present may know where that is — and thousands came from all of north Munster just to listen to him. That is a great connection between north Kerry and the uilleann pipes.

At that time, the uilleann pipes, together with the harp, were the major instruments in north Kerry, which is an area steeped in music. As Senator Ó Murchú would confirm, Listowel hosted 14 fleadhanna over the years and became, I suppose, the home for the fleadh for a number of years until it probably got too big and, maybe, too expensive for such a small town.

From the point of view of music, both the uilleann pipes and the harp were very prevalent and popular in the 19th century and early 20th century, in particular. Unfortunately, it is rare to see an uilleann pipe or a harp now in that area where they flourished in the past. There should be some attempt at revival. Perhaps at some point the witnesses would come down and give a lecture on the uilleann pipes because of that connection. Thomas Carty's great nephew, Mr. William Carty, is a very famous folk singer in England and we are trying to build on that connection. Thomas Carty, for all the time he gave, deserves some kind of memorial in Ballybunion on the Castle Green. The Castle Green in Ballybunion is remembered for many other events but Carty would be the most positive of them and it might be something we could discuss.

As the witnesses stated, the uilleann pipes, together with the harp, are an icon of Ireland. I have heard that from even as far away as Silicon Valley, where there are people who are very interested in the uilleann pipes and who I have seen play them over there. The instrument has penetrated the music world right across the globe and has attracted a great deal of attention because it is unique. As the witnesses stated, it is very much identified with Ireland. There are very few instruments that are solely identified with Ireland, but the uilleann pipes is one. That is something that we should recognise as very important.

When Fr. Pat Ahern established Siamsa Tíre, he started in Finuge with Teach Siamsa and one of his objectives was to train young people in how to make uilleann pipes. At the time, he sent young people up to Clare, perhaps to Willie Clancy. Unfortunately, it did not happen for whatever reason, probably due to the difficulties that were outlined here. Fr. Ahern, who was a visionary in Irish music at that time, saw the relevance and importance of promoting and endorsing the uilleann pipes.

Has Na Píobairí Uilleann approached any of the State agencies for the €170,000 per annum it is looking for today? Who did it approach in looking for this money? Was there ever any FÁS input? Did Na Píobairí Uilleann approach FÁS about getting involved in the training of craftspersons, or even in the making of the pipes or supporting the organisation with its initiative? Could FÁS provide any money for training, materials or whatever? The witnesses mentioned that the Arts Council has been supportive? Was there any input from the council?

I welcome Mr. McKeon and Mr. Potts and thank them for the presentation. All have spoken of where they come from, and of their history and origins around this issue. While I represent Dublin South-Central, I come from west Clare. I am told that there were neighbours of ours called Maloney who, probably in the 1800s, were pipe makers. I know some of the fourth generation of that family who still tell me that they were involved but, perhaps for reasons connected with the Famine, fell away from the business. We all have an interest in and, I suppose, a cultural memory of the uilleann pipes.

The witnesses have made two important points for us today: first, this is an investment in culture, tradition and tourism for this country and, second, this is investment in the economy. These are two important points and in many ways I would not say that one is more important than the other, but they both are highly significant.

It is a great shame that some young enthusiastic person who wants to be able to play the uilleann pipes must wait for seven years. It seems slightly ridiculous in that there is a market for this. There is a need and all the witnesses are asking us is whether we can find a way to fulfil that need for the production of uilleann pipes. At a practical level, what would be the cost to an individual of buying pipes?

Mr. Gay McKeon

One starts on a practice set, which costs approximately €1,500. One progresses to a half-set, which costs approximately €4,000. A full set costs approximately €10,000. A full-sized instrument would cost the equivalent of a violin or flute, approximately €10,000.

The fact that there are people waiting for seven years, and that they are willing to make that kind of investment, is significant. It really is a missed opportunity.

I noted the unfilled back orders. It is astonishing that there is such a waiting list and all the organisation is looking for is the craftspeople to provide the product. It seems that if the organisation could find the seed funding, it could generate quite a substantial industry. The witnesses are pointing out that the funding need not be endless and it is not a very considerable sum. What we need to look at in the current economic climate is whether we could support and promote this rather small industry.

I noted the witnesses mentioned there is a worldwide market for this product. Can they tell us a little about the research they have done in that regard? Some of the countries are ones with which we would associate and the importance of which we would recognise, but there might also be a wider market that I would not be aware of. Those are my key questions.

I also welcome Mr. McKeon and Mr. Potts. I come from the west where there is a great tradition of both uilleann pipes and traditional music.

Deputy Upton raised a question I was going to ask on the cost involved, which Mr. McKeon stated was €10,000. As the witnesses are talking about expensive instruments, perhaps they would give their views on this. Some schools have looked at the plausibility of a rental scheme, not only for pipes but for other expensive musical instruments. I wonder whether that approach which, I accept, would not be easy, has ever crossed their mind.

I support what has been said about the funding of €170,000 per year over five years. There are enterprise boards, perhaps not in all counties but in many counties in the west, that have provided help in the past for small industries. This industry could be very big nationally and internationally, and it is something on which we could follow up.

As the members stated, there is great interest in traditional music. The Fleadh Ceoil has done very well. I am also glad that many of our fine musicians are still teaching. Mr. Joe Burke in Galway, is still teaching and I met some of his students at the weekend. I do not know whether there are many people teaching the uilleann pipes, perhaps the witnesses might tell us how many. Certainly, there are many teaching the accordion, the traditional fiddle and the tin whistle. Various music lessons are available for young people, in particular. However, the costs involved are so high that perhaps a rental scheme for instruments might be considered.

I welcome our guests. I thank Mr. Potts for the wonderful enjoyment he has brought to people for many years. The first occasion on which I heard the name Gay McKeon was in connection with the song "I Ran All the Way Home" which was a hit for Brendan Bowyer and the Royal Showband. That is the only other time I came across someone by the name of Gay McKeon and I often wondered what happened to him.

When I was growing up, my late father encouraged us to listen to the "Ceolta Tíre" radio programme. As a result, I am of the view that the most iconic piece of music ever composed is "The Fox Hunt". Am I correct in stating Leo Rowsome performed the definitive version of the song? One does not often hear it on radio these days. While it is a long piece, it is reflective of who we are as a nation and a people. There is no other musical genre in the world in which a piece that is so real and vibrant could have been created. "The Fox Hunt" makes one feel one is present from the initial gathering right through to the hunt and into the aftermath. I suggest other members listen to it if they are not already familiar with it.

In view of the fact that music is so embedded in the Irish psyche, irrespective of where we come from, we all have a rich tradition. Neil Mulligan, a contemporary uilleann pipes player from County Leitrim, is based in Dublin. The people of County Leitrim are very proud of him and each year he attends the Joe Mooney summer school with his family. From my work as a radio presenter, I am aware that Peter Browne, a member of Na Píobairí Uilleann, has also promoted the use of the uilleann pipes.

I would like our guests to indicate what they have done so far in trying to raise money. I do not wish to sound flippant, but when they were talking, the name of the television programme "Dragons' Den" came to mind. When one considers the proposals made on that programme which is extremely popular, one must also remember that one is dealing with business people who have money. It seems this is a no-brainer. Our guests referred to back orders worth in excess of €7 million and the provision of employment for 30 people. In the light of the fact that there is a guaranteed market, it is amazing that our guests are experiencing difficulties in raising money. If they were from overseas, Enterprise Ireland would immediately become involved with them.

The uilleann pipes have transcended the genre of traditional Irish music. For example, Dolly Parton has used them on several of her recordings. An increasing number of artists who play what one would broadly term "American music" are utilising them. I have even noticed their use on contemporary pop and rock tracks. As our guests stated, the potential is enormous and goes way beyond the genre of traditional Irish music. For that reason, I do not believe any member would have difficulty in lending his or her support to their quest. If the money is available, it should be given to them. I re-emphasise what Deputy Deenihan said, namely, that this is a sound commercial proposition and that our guests should not have any great difficulty in raising the sum of money in question. In corporate terms, that sum is quite small.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an toscaireacht ó Na Píobairí Uilleann, Seán Potts agus Gay McKeon, agus gabhaim buíochas leo go pearsanta as teacht isteach chuig an cruinniú agus a dtuairimí a chur os ár gcomhair. Tá sé de dhualgas orainn mar choiste cabhair a thabhairt i ngach slí gur féidir linn. Tá sin thar a bheith tábhachtach.

I welcome Mr. Potts and Mr. McKeon and compliment Na Píobairí Uilleann on the great work it has done. Our guests are appearing before us at a timely juncture in the history of the country. One the one hand, it can be stated we are economically challenged, but, on the other, this is precisely the type of project which, for a number of reasons, is needed at this time. Most agree that cultural tourism is very much in vogue. We are all well aware of its importance to the economy. As previous speakers pointed out, there is also the prospect of employment being created. However, there is much more than this at stake. I refer to the spirit of the nation and its association with the work our guests are doing.

The history of Ireland shows that its people have great tenacity of character which they have demonstrated whenever necessary. In the current circumstances we need projects such as that being promoted by our guests. Considering the track record of their organisation, to which they rightly referred, I do not have any doubt that the project will come to fruition. The amount of money involved is not large, particularly if one places it in context. I do not believe our guests should be obliged to go cap in hand in order to obtain funding. Taxpayers give money to the Government and culture plays a central role in its programme. Our guests have already illustrated the extent of voluntarism in the work they are doing. One cannot place a price on this. Na Píobairí Uilleann often obtains specialist help, free of charge, from certain individuals.

Opportunities arise on certain occasions and if they are not grasped, they may not crop up again for a considerable period. In the interim, great potential can be lost. We owe it to the young people who want to become involved in playing traditional instruments, particularly the uilleann pipes, to take action. In the past we thought of Irish culture as something that was imposed. Now, however, people want to participate and be part of it. The wheel has come full circle. It would be extremely disingenuous if the committee, the Government and the people did not reflect on and respond to this fact. I do not doubt that the money to which our guests referred, if made available, would be returned one hundredfold. The money would be an investment in our confidence, as well as being an investment in us, as a people.

I am strongly in favour of the project and hope the committee will make a recommendation to the appropriate Minister. Our guests have done their work, collected money, made their investment, provided their services on a voluntary basis and restored their headquarters in Henrietta Street. They are taking further steps and have done their part. It is at this point that we should be seen to be generous. In that context, I ask the Chairman to ensure the committee makes a strong recommendation in support of the project.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Deputy Cyprian Brady for ensuring the meeting took place. As Senator Ó Murchú stated, it is apt that we are discussing something as significant as the work of our guests at this time. It is clear that members have a major interest in culture and tourism. We are particularly interested in preserving our fantastic culture.

On previous occasions I alluded to the meeting which had taken place at Farmleigh and at which people had referred to the need to promote culture, tourism and enterprise in the context of realising the potential of the people of this country. In that context and in terms of our culture, the work of our guests is something we need to promote.

The question of costs was raised by previous speakers. I agree with members' assertions to the effect that we should support Na Píobairí Uilleann in every way possible. Obviously, our guests have pursued every possible avenue in their search for funding. We will do everything possible to explore these avenues with the group, but we will have to hear from Mr. McKeon before we decide what route we should take. Like Deputies Micheál Kitt and Deenihan, I get a sense that the enterprise boards are one avenue of support, but the group will have the support of the committee.

The country needs a lift and, as a committee, we realise we have a responsibility to help those who are trying to preserve and promote our culture. As Senator Mooney stated, pipe makers have back orders for the instrument and we need more pipe makers and teachers. A package of measures could be taken. It is a tremendous and significant instrument. Mr. McKeon has mentioned that Éamonn Ceannt was a pipe player. One could go back further to appreciate the historic significance of the instrument. I am a great fan of this emotional, uplifting instrument which is well respected globally. We could do a great deal and are here to help uilleann pipers. I would like Mr. McKeon to respond to the questions of members and help to steer us through the possible avenues of support which we will be glad to follow.

Mr. Gay McKeon

I thank the Chairman and members. Their support is heartening and much appreciated, as well as their questions and comments.

I will try to set the scene regarding the market conditions that prevail for uilleann pipe making. It is a highly complex instrument. Typically, it takes six weeks' full-time highly skilled work to make a full set of pipes. The learning curve to become an accomplished uilleann pipe maker is long. The skills reside with busy high-end master craftmen, some of whom have the equivalent of 20 years' work experience. They are busy and have a compelling reason to stick with their job on a day-to-day basis. There are good makers in Ireland, but the makers in Ireland and around the world have been hugely supportive.

This is a complex project. We needed to confirm the market conditions, then talk to the leading makers to get their support because if there is to be a transmission and transfer of skills, one has to have the leading makers. We are essentially asking them to share their intellectual property with the wider world. We have spoken to various agencies and received funding from the Arts Council to film leading makers around the world. We have edited the material which we are making available. This is the first time that has happened. In recent years a leading maker in France and a leading maker in Britain died suddenly. They were two of a small group of high-end makers. Most of the leading makers have order books equivalent to up to 20 years' work. We have the support of the uilleann pipe makers and need to arrange for the transfer of skills. That means to do the best course and give people the best chance of making them, we need to get the leading makers from around the world to come to Ireland to train people. That is what we are trying to do.

Mr. Potts and many of our colleagues in Na Píobairí Uilleann have spoken to many agencies during the years and in recent times we have redoubled our efforts because we are experiencing an increase in demand. Every day we have people looking for instruments. We have had an instrument on loan scheme for more than 20 years. At this time we have more than 80 instruments out on loan. They are instruments our members gave to us to give out on loan or our uilleann pipe makers have made for us free of charge and other instruments for which we received funding from the Music Network under the music capital scheme. In the past Údarás na Gaeltachta helped us to some extent. We have 80 instruments out on loan and are helping people all the time. We loan them out for a year free of charge and then try to provide tuition.

We have spoken to the Arts Council which has been supportive and the Crafts Council of Ireland, of which we are a member. It gave us a small grant this year under the network scheme to do some editing of the film we made of uilleann pipe makers around the world. We have also spoken for a number of years to FÁS. Its representatives have worked well with us under its local training initiative scheme and helped us in the early years with some of the finer refurbishment work in Henrietta Street. We have been talking to the organisation for four years about the project and it suggested it would appoint us as a subcontracted trainer because of the skills resident within the membership of Na Píobairí Uilleann. It is not like one can go in and get a wood turner or a metal turner and teach him or her how to make the uilleann pipes. One needs to have the musical aspect also. We met FÁS officials and gave them a detailed syllabus. They were looking at setting up a training centre in Finglas. However, recently they decided not to take that route, but we continued anyway because we were happy to work with them. With regard to people coming to engage in uilleann pipe making, the ideal candidate is someone who can make the reeds, which are the engine of the pipes and make the sound, and has access to a lathe. One needs to have these skills. We are willing teach people how to play the pipes and make the reeds. We have spoken to FÁS, but for whatever reason, it has decided not to pursue this option.

Recently we had discussions with the Leader programme and are excited by the support we have received in recent weeks from some Leader companies. We believe we should pursue a model whereby we try to get uilleann pipe makers in the community, for example, in counties Kerry, Clare and Galway, and, in conjunction with the Leader programme or another body, establish an instrument on loan scheme and provide tuition. We provide tuition in Henrietta Street, but we also provide tuition on-line and issue publications. We support tuition throughout the country and the world.

Deputy Deenihan asked about our global reach. Currently, we have members in more than 40 countries, which is phenomenal. Yesterday, we had a visitor from Switzerland who had to come to Ireland for a week just to receive tuition. Recently a doctor from Brazil spent a month here to learn how to play the uilleann pipes. I was teaching on Achill Island two weeks ago and two women from Israel and Japan had come to Ireland purposely to learn how to play them. The appeal is massive. We are astounded by the level of interest around the world. The list of countries which includes Argentina, Brazil and Bermuda is amazing. There is an active uilleann pipers' club in New Zealand. There are also many pipers in Australia. It is phenomenal throughout Europe. We have an events calendar, in respect of which we partner with uilleann pipers around the world. There are uilleann pipers' clubs in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

We have worked with many agencies. We have not spoken specifically to the enterprise boards. Our approach was to conduct our research, talk to the community who use the instruments, make them and see who might be interested in training. We advertised in July for individuals who might be interested in training and received 80 expressions of interest. Our challenge, therefore, is to provide the training and accommodate as many of the people concerned as we can. We want to be as inclusive as possible.

Deputy Upton mentioned the Moloney pipes. We acquired a set made by Moloney recently through an auction and we are restoring them. They are on display in Henrietta Street and were in the one family since the early 1800s. Mickey Cumbaw Ó Suilleabháin, the great piper from County Kerry, was recorded here at the feis ceoil in 1898. It is an iconic recording.

We want to partner with local groups to provide tuition in every county. We want to team them up with local uilleann pipe makers who will supply the instruments and be able to teach people how to maintain them to turn the clock back to pre-Famine times. We need craft. We have spoken to most of the agencies involved in this area, including FÁS, the Crafts Council and the Arts Council. We have also had meetings during the past week with the heads of some Leader companies from whom we received a tremendous response. It is now a matter of putting everything together. The model of providing tuition in the locality and of having a pipe maker in the locality, whom we will train, is important. The learning curve is steep and we are seeking assistance in making this model work. We operate an instrument loan scheme. There is a huge demand worldwide for our product. I hope I have answered all the questions raised.

The group is seeking €170,000 per annum.

Mr. Gay McKeon

Yes.

For what purpose will the money be used?

Mr. Gay McKeon

We need to employ an administrator-course director because of health and safety regulations and to arrange schedules for trainers. Also, rent on the premises costs €18,000 per annum and we must pay other bills such as rates, insurance, light and heat.

The funding is for the facility in Clonshaugh which is where the 30 people will be employed.

Mr. Gay McKeon

Yes. It will take us approximately five years to train a group of 30 people. It is a three year course. We believe we can train 30 people over a five year period.

No uilleann pipes will, therefore, be produced for at least five years.

Mr. Gay McKeon

The trainees will be able to make components and practise sets. We will not manufacture anything. It will be the individuals who will do this in their own communities.

They will not be made at the Clonshaugh facility.

Mr. Gay McKeon

People will be trained how to make the pipes at the Clonshaugh facility.

That facility will not be used as a production facility.

Mr. Gay McKeon

No, it will be a training facility.

The trainees will on completion of the course go into private enterprise.

Mr. Gay McKeon

Yes.

Is this a sensible way of going about this? I understood from the presentation that the group would provide a manufacturing facility that would employ 30 people.

Mr. Gay McKeon

No, it will be a training centre.

Obviously, training will be incorporated. That is a given. Ultimately, we are speaking about 30 people who will be dealing with a €7 million backlog of orders which hopefully will grow.

Mr. Gay McKeon

Yes.

Is this a model that has been agreed on as being the way forward?

Perhaps I could make a point. That has been the history of instrument making here. In other words, it was the individual who handled instrument making. In so far as this was limited, it was successful because overheads were not centralised in a single unit but were met by individuals who would often take on an apprentice. This has been evident in respect of harp, uilleann pipe, flute and tin whistle making.

It is akin to the making of hurleys.

Yes. The problem was that demand exceeded supply. Na Píobairí Uilleann wants to fill that gap. What was previously in place was successful so this is a workable model.

This changes the dynamics slightly in terms of the application for funding in that the funding is primarily although not exclusively for training and development of skills. Mr. McKeon has also factored in rent, rates and so on. Am I correct in saying that the vast bulk of the €170,000 being sought will go towards training?

Mr. Gay McKeon

Yes. We have moved from the position of the death in 1970 of the only full-time maker of uilleann pipes to there now being 60 uilleann pipe makers worldwide, a minority of whom are in Ireland. We need to re-establish the skill in Ireland.

I agree. By way of an aside, last year, I interviewed an interesting gentleman in Sheffield who made pipes for the Furey Brothers. He had lived in Kilkenny for around six or seven years. This man had worked in the stainless steel industry in Sheffield, had no background in terms of Irish instruments and so on but when he developed an interest in Irish music he decided to use the skills he had already acquired in the steel making industry to produce uilleann pipes. As far as I am aware, he is now well known. We were astonished to find him and to see what he is producing. I understand exactly from where Mr. McKeon is coming, namely, because of the complexities of the instrument it cannot be mass produced. Each producer brings a different element to each instrument.

In light of this information, where do we as a committee stand in terms of how we are going to formulate a response to this?

I thank Senator Mooney for raising the key question of where the committee stands on this matter? This is a public platform for groups like Na Píobairí Uilleann, whom we welcome here today. We learned a great deal from the group's presentation. Senator Mooney asked some interesting questions. Mr. McKeon referred in his presentation to the avenues the group has been pursuing, including the Arts Council, Crafts Council, FÁS and so on. Many speakers have suggested the group also contact the enterprise boards.

The joint committee will try to support the group in every way possible. One of the Ministers accountable to this joint committee is the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Culture. Rather than us spreading our influence throughout Departments, I suggest that we write to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Culture, with whom we have a good close working relationship, telling her we have met Na Píobairí Uilleann. We will provide her with a copy of the group's presentation and ask that she, through her Department, assist the group in every possible way. The arts and crafts councils come directly within the Minister's remit. Other bodies such as FÁS and the enterprise boards come within the remit of the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation and Education and Skills.

I suggest that Na Píobairí Uilleann, on foot of this meeting, should write and outline its specific proposals to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Culture. Senator Mooney raised an important matter with the group. My advice to the group is that it examine all of the avenues suggested. I totally understand where the group is coming from in terms of the training of 30 individuals. The tradition here is to train individuals to ensure our skills survive and are passed on. It is at times like this we need all the State agencies promoting groups like Na Píobairí Uilleann. The enterprise boards can play a role in this area. Many schools throughout the country teach people the skill of playing the uilleann pipes.

I believe there is a clear role for FÁS in this respect.

It is a pity the group did not approach that agency two or three years ago.

When it had plenty of money and did not know what to do with it.

A number of avenues have been identified. The joint committee will try to support the group in every way possible. Members have shown they are hugely interested in this issue. We suggest the group takes up the issue with the enterprise boards and with FÁS. We will ask the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Culture to support the group. The next step is for the group to resubmit it applications for funding. I suggest it also make an application to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Culture. While I assure the group that we will support it in its endeavours the responsibility, in terms of how it will go about this, is on its shoulders. I am sure the Arts Council will be willing to help the group. We are currently trying to defend its budget. We are here to assist. I ask that the group revisit its overall submission focusing on the enterprise side of it. This committee has been involved in similar debates with other people involved in cultural enterprises. We are here to support the group and will do so through the Minister answerable to this committee.

I am grateful to the Chairman for his clarification. Am I correct in saying that the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has an input into this committee?

That is correct.

That Department has money and under the community element has responsibility for development companies. Amalgamated Leader and partnership companies are now called development companies. I am not sure how the structure works in Dublin, but generally it works on a county basis, which should not be an obstacle. I support what has been said, but I am concerned if we write to the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport along the lines suggested, that because there is a training element to the request, the Minister may kick it over to another Department, on the basis that it is not within her remit, although she would certainly make all the right noises and be sincere and support and see the benefit of cultural tourism. We are trying to be as practical as we can and that is why I suggest we should also consider approaching the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs.

I will make another suggestion. The Ireland Fund is an international organisation that has raised millions of euros from the Irish diaspora and Na Píobairí Uilleann has already outlined the strong contacts it has through Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. Therefore, they already have an established bedrock of contacts. While the Ireland Fund is a philanthropic organisation, I believe from my experience that Na Píobairí Uilleann should approach that organisation if it has not already done so.

Mr. Gay McKeon

We have.

What did it say?

Mr. Gay McKeon

We would not be here today if we had secured all the funding we require. I would point out that without training, there will be no enterprise. With regard to FÁS, the skills reside with a unique set of people. These people are extremely busy and are based all around the world and we need to get them to come and deliver training in an environment in which they would be comfortable sharing their skills. It is a needs must scenario. The demand exists and there is an opportunity to fill it. Without training it is hard to get enterprise. We have been knocking on doors for many years and Mr. Potts can testify to that.

Mr. Seán Potts

I can. Senator Mooney mentioned the Ireland Fund. It is absolutely broke. I tried it for various projects, but not this one. We are continually refurbishing our building and money is always required for that sort of work. The fund was very supportive of that in the past. In the early days our building was totally derelict and the first grant we got came from the fund, which was called the American Ireland Fund at the time. Recently I approached the boss there, Kingsley Aikins, but he has retired. He has not answered phone calls but sent me one message saying that he was going away for a few weeks but wanted to tell me there was no money. I just left it, but the fund was supportive in the past.

Kieran McLaughlin is the new director of the Ireland Fund and the fund now only supports major causes, such as mental health, at national level. The fund only supports three or four major national causes. This is unfortunate because the fund was a great source of funding for groups across the country.

Mr. Seán Potts

I understand that.

I suggest we refocus, I am not sure of the Chair's view, but the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs has a budget.

I agree with Senator Mooney's suggestion.

It is interesting to hear what committee members have to suggest. Na Píobairí Uilleann has knocked on as many doors as it can. I am sure it is willing to approach the various Departments or sections of Departments if that is required. Up to now we have been discussing the project from the cultural and historical viewpoint and looking at its value in that sense. It is crucial that the Department with responsibility for arts, culture and tourism is involved, but I accept what Senator Mooney had to say about the training element. If it is necessary to approach different Departments, I am sure Na Píobairí Uilleann is willing to do that.

We must bring the discussion to a conclusion. The delegates have heard the suggestions put forward by members and I will encompass those suggestions in my response as Chairman. As a committee we must keep our structure and try and be effective where we can. That is in our visitors' interest. I take the suggestion on board that we need to involve two Ministers to assist Na Píobairí Uilleann, and we will do that. I am conscious that the delegates may also have to go to other Ministers. We will ask our Ministers to co-ordinate also.

I thank the delegates for attending. It was important to hear them and give them a platform to express their views on this important issue. We wish the píobairí well and have great hopes for them. We will remain in contact and support them in the coming months.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 20 October 2010.
Top
Share