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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2010

Promoting Art, Craft and Culture in Ireland: Discussion

I welcome all our visitors who are here to consider the topic of promoting art and culture in Ireland. They include representatives of the National Campaign for the Arts, Voluntary Arts Ireland and the National Youth Council of Ireland. I welcome Ms Anne O'Gorman, Mr. Lee O'Neill, Ms Eimear Hurley and Mr. Sam Riggs from the National Youth Council of Ireland. Mr. O'Neill is also a member of CANVAS at The Grainstore in Dún Laoghaire. Ms Hurley is also a member of the Cork International Girls Chorus and Mr. Riggs is also a member of County Carlow Youth Theatre. I welcome also Mr. Stephen Brown, chairman, and Mr. Kevin Murphy from Voluntary Arts Ireland, and Mr. William White from the National Campaign for the Arts. I extend a warm welcome to all. Last year we had a delegation from world of arts, theatre and film. I am advised that before continuing I must advise our guests of a notice about the Defamation Act. While we will not need it, I will formally read it.

I wish to advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members of this committee have absolute privilege. However, I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We had a good pre-budget meeting last year with some of our well-known stars from film and theatre, authors, the music industry, etc. I am not suggesting our guests are not well known or are not important people. Our guests are important people as they are doing the work on the ground. The joint committee has helped initiate a good debate on the arts. I have heard from RTE, Mr. Vincent Woods and others that the debate on the importance of the arts and culture in society is also taking place elsewhere.

Art and culture are especially important at a time of recession when we need people in the arts and culture community to keep our spirits up. The main issue we would like to pursue is the economic benefit of the arts. Proposals emerged from the recent meeting at Farmleigh attended by many high-powered individuals. Today, the joint committee has an opportunity to listen to people on the ground who will no doubt make the valid case, one which I support, that arts and culture sustain many jobs. I hope the budget for the arts and culture will not be cut because every reduction will affect those working in the many fantastic organisations in the field.

We are all conscious that everyone is making a major effort in these times. During the summer, when I travelled around the country, I was highly impressed by the number of festivals taking place and the number of people working hard to ensure others are able to enjoy music and other cultural events. I commend everyone involved in this area. I invite Ms. O'Gorman to commence proceedings.

Ms Anne O’Gorman

It is an honour to appear before the joint committee on behalf of the National Youth Council of Ireland and our working group, youth arts works, which is made up of a number of national youth arts organisations. I run the youth arts programme in the National Youth Council of Ireland. I am joined by Mr. Lee O'Neill from The Grainstore, Cabinteely, Ms Eimear Hurley, Cork International Girls Chorus, and Mr. Sam Riggs, Carlow Youth Theatre.

I will discuss the importance of young people in promoting arts, craft and culture. Young people participate in the arts in kaleidoscopic ways - they are members of youth theatres, orchestras, ensembles and bands - and do so through a soft infrastructure made up of practitioners, organisations, ensembles, skills and other supports. They participate in workshops, projects, plays, exhibitions and concerts. In addition to taking part as participants, they engage with the rest of the arts as audience members and critics and make their own work. There are also many young people involved in ensembles and schemes which they have organised themselves and which do not form part of any youth arts infrastructure.

Much of this activity, even where it is led professionally, is not for profit, if not completely voluntary, and therefore provides excellent value for money. However, as Emelie Fitzgibbon once said about voluntary youth theatres, what happens after charisma? In other words, what happens when the goodwill and passion run out? Money, too, is required. The funding lines to the arts in general and youth arts in particular are comparatively small.

It is generally agreed - much research is available to support this assertion - that the arts are a very effective and creative way of educating and learning. In addition, access to the arts for young people is important in its own right. It is, in fact, a right as Ireland ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1991, one of which is the right to participate in the cultural life of the country.

The need for a more focused, cohesive and strategic approach to cultural provision for young people is recognised on a European level. The conclusions of the European conference, Promoting a Creative Generation, recommended to member states the inclusion of access to culture as one of the important priorities in all policies regarding young people. A resolution on a renewed framework for European co-operation in the field of youth acknowledged the importance of culture in the future and well-being of young people in Europe and lists creativity and culture as one of the eight main fields of action. I mention these developments to demonstrate that access of young people to culture is attracting a growing interest at all policymaking levels, from the international to the local level.

We are approaching a tipping point. Despite the difficult circumstances in which Ireland finds itself, we should not allow the cart to roll back down when we are so close to cresting the hill. Owing to the range of providers and access points to the arts, funding and resources run into youth arts from many different sources. We must consider the impact of all cuts, rather than viewing a single cut to the arts budget in isolation, if we are to assess the damage cuts will have to the soft infrastructure to which I referred. We are very concerned about the cumulative effect of many lights going out. What I mean by this is that in addition to a cut in funding to a youth theatre, a community may also experience a cut in the budget for arts in schools or to the arts programming budget for a local arts centre, library or youth club. Our concern, therefore, is that these measures will switch out many lights and our message is very simple - first, one should do no harm. The infrastructure, which in any case needs development, is easier to protect than to rebuild.

There are 1,140,616 people under the age of 19 years in Ireland. The figure is correct if no one has had a birthday since the statistic was calculated. It does not make sense to fail to make adequate provision for such a significant constituency. Despite making up 29% of the population, the young people's services category directly receives 5% of the Arts Council allocation. In addition, young people who are not yet taxpayers are already destined to spend much of their working lives providing the money that was necessary to rescue our banking system. It behoves us not to focus cuts in expenditure on those we wish to pay for mistakes which were not of their making. It does not make sense to focus unnecessary pain on those we will rely on as our exit strategy from the recession.

Providing access to the arts and an education is an investment rather than an expense. The solutions we will need are those that young people will invent. Imaginative, innovative thinking has never been more important to nurture.

Youth arts activity runs much of the time on passion and volunteerism, qualities that also provide a measure of wealth. The country finds itself in unprecedented difficulty and people rely more than ever on each other and their communities for support. Social cohesion and community coherence will be more important than ever as we seek to turn the country around.

Arts access for young people can feed the following benefits into society and communities as well as contributing towards the creative economy. Involvement in the arts assists young people to become more confident, resilient and content, which has a positive knock-on impact on society. Youth arts is a vital part of the larger spectrum of high quality art and creative endeavour which the world associates with Ireland and which must be a lived reality for our citizens as well as a characteristic we promote abroad.

Research commissioned by the National Youth Council of Ireland found that, among other benefits, 90% of the young people surveyed agreed with the statement, "I feel happier in myself since joining the project"; 92% of young people agreed with the statement, "I have more self-confidence since joining this project"; 83% stated that the arts project "helps them connect with their feelings and express them"; 90% agreed with the statement, "I've learned to work as a team"; and 98% agreed that they learned new skills from participating in projects, such as computer and technical skills and others such as putting on a production.

The Public and The Arts, an independent report, found that arts programmes and facilities dedicated to working for and with children and young people were identified as the top or second priority for more than half of those surveyed. In the same report, 69% of people surveyed agreed or strongly agreed that funding for the arts be maintained even in times of economic recession.

Besides having an entitlement to cultural access, young people benefit from participation in numerous ways, both in terms of hard skills, which can increase employment opportunities, and soft skills, which enable them to achieve their full potential and be engaged citizens. I do not speak only of quality of education or public provision but of quality of childhood, of which all of us only have one. Childhood does not wait. The eight, ten or 14 year old cannot wait for the recession to be over. The window closes on the particular needs and potentialities each child had at the specific moment in time.

Quality of childhood must include access to the arts. A report by the National Economic and Social Forum: The Arts, Cultural Inclusion and Social Cohesion, states that children are a particularly important grouping in the arts by virtue of, among other things, the developmental significance of childhood experiences. Some 86% of youth theatre members surveyed by the National Association for Youth Drama stated that youth theatre had the potential to change completely their lives.

Philip Pullman, the award winning writer of the trilogy His Dark Materials, states the following regarding access to the arts for children:

Children need to go to the theatre as much as they need to run about in the fresh air. They need to hear real music played by real musicians on real instruments as much as they need food and drink. They need to read and listen to proper stories as much as they need to be loved and cared for.

The difficulty with persuading adults that this is the case is that if one deprives children of shelter, kindness, food, drink and exercise, they die visibly, whereas if one deprives them of art, music, story and theatre, they perish on the inside where it does not show.

There are a few children here who cannot wait until the recession is over.

Mr. Lee O’Neill

I am here on behalf of CANVAS, the youth arts committee in the Grainstore, which is Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council's youth arts facility in Cabinteely Park and which is the only dedicated youth arts facility in the country. Many people ask why we chose CANVAS as our name but we like it because it is like a blank sheet of paper and we can do anything we want with it. Our slogan is "Freedom to Expression" and we stick to this because The Grainstore is the type of place that no matter who one is or whatever background one is from, one has the chance to express oneself freely. Thanks to The Grainstore I have had the chance to learn many new things and to engage in new activities, including organising gigs, art exhibitions and even making a short film about Michael Craig-Martin. I also am undertaking a youth leadership course and child protection training. Last but not least, the best thing about the Grainstore for me is that it is a place in which I can express myself freely. I also am one of the two lucky people who gets to represent the Grainstore in our local Comhairle na nÓg. The Grainstore through the arts has given me many opportunities, and without it I would find it hard to express myself. I urge members to allow more people to have this opportunity.

Mr. Sam Riggs

I am a member of County Carlow Youth Theatre. I have been involved in youth arts since I joined four years ago. Before joining, I was a nervous, shy, slightly geeky and awkward kid. I did not really go out much except for school and my confidence was lacking in a big way. I joined the youth theatre on the urgings of my parents, who thought it would be good for me to get out, meet new people and become involved with something creative and motivating. Much as I hate to admit it, my parents were right on this one. The opportunities have been endless. I have met people I never thought I would meet, including playwrights, actors and directors, and have travelled all over Ireland and the United Kingdom. This is something I never would have experienced had I not been involved in youth arts. I even got the opportunity to write a play, which was performed in May this year in Carlow. Before joining the youth theatre, I never imagined in my wildest dreams that I would write a play and that it would be performed on stage to a full house audience.

Moreover, it also has changed my future. Before I joined I had no idea what I wanted to do in the future after university. Now I know that I wish to pursue a career in writing and directing for both television and stage. This all has helped me to become the person I am today. The simple fact that I am able to appear before the joint committee and give this speech to members, when I would have balked at the idea previously, is testament to the degree to which I have changed thanks to youth theatre. I encourage members to continue to have faith in youth arts and the community of youth in Ireland as a whole. This funding should be continued in order that others might have the same opportunities I have had, namely, the glorious experiences and new friends, as well as the confidence and strength of character that comes with being involved in youth arts.

Ms Eimear Hurley

I am a leaving certificate student at Coláiste an Phiarsaigh, Cork, and a member of the Irish International Youth Chorus. In 2005, when Cork was European capital of culture, a unique children's choir was set up. I auditioned and was delighted to be accepted. Little did I know then that being a part of this choir quite simply would change my life. We debuted in the major concert venues in Cork and in 2006, we made our first international tour to Japan as part of the International Music Festival for Youth. In subsequent years, we have performed in Liverpool, Vilnius and Pécs. This year, our director was invited by the office of the Taoiseach to tailor and tour an international arts programme to the Ireland Pavilion at Expo 2010 in Shanghai. This was a tremendous honour and I felt so privileged to be representing my country in the biggest cultural exchange event in the world.

My participation in youth arts has been enriching on so many levels. I have learned that music is as much about communication and emotion as it is about technique. I have also gained much confidence and have learned to lose my inhibitions for the good of the group. Performing to audiences of different nationalities has taught me that music is the international language that breaks down any existing cultural or linguistic barriers. In my performance with the choir, I am proud of our achievement but also of my own Irish identity. Through singing songs of our heritage, the aim of this project was to present Irish culture abroad and I am satisfied that we achieved our objective.

My experiences in international youth arts have made me a more socially, culturally and globally aware person. I realise I have been extremely lucky to have had so many opportunities with my choir and I challenge members to consider offering such possibilities to more young Irish people. I have seen how the Irish brand interests people in other countries and I have every confidence in my generation in promoting that brand. I have personal understandings and ties to European and eastern cultures and I know that young people want to gain the same. Ireland's future and development relies on our ability to present our Irishness overseas. Therefore, we need to continue to change young people's perspectives and to teach them about the world and about Ireland's role in it through doing something they love. The devotion and passion for the Irish International Youth in Chorus team, led by Sonya Keogh, have made the arts a strong part of my life and that is something for which I am eternally grateful.

I thank Ms Anne O'Gorman, Mr. Lee O'Neill, Ms Eimear Hurley and Mr. Sam Riggs from the National Youth Council of Ireland for sharing their experience with members in a highly efficient manner. They certainly got their message across. I invite Mr. Kevin Murphy from Voluntary Arts Ireland to make his submission.

Mr. Kevin Murphy

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to appear before it and to contribute some ideas on the promotion of art, culture and crafts in Ireland. I will talk a little about Voluntary Arts Ireland and a little about the voluntary arts sector, as well as the benefits, including the economic benefits, this sector provides to society. Thereafter, I will put forward a few ideas that we think might help if the joint committee is considering how it might go about promoting this. Voluntary Arts Ireland is a development agency for the thousands of grassroots organisations across Ireland. Our vision is of a healthier civil society through practical participation in the arts and crafts and consequently what is critical to us is the kind of society we are going to build. While our vehicle is using the arts, the question to us is what are we going to build during the next period, even though we do not have as much money as we would like to have to do so.

We contribute to the artistic and cultural life of Ireland through a number of services and projects. We have a core information service that gives critical information to the arts sector as a whole. We have a young arts co-operative project and interestingly we have been doing some work with the fabulous people from The Grainstore and in CANVAS. There is a wonderful link between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland through young people of which we are very proud and we are really excited about the work they are doing. Our Another Way In project is a volunteering project in partnership with the Department for Social Development in the North and the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs here. Other project partners include the GAA and the Church of Ireland and it is about highlighting the volunteering capacity of those organisations across Ireland. The last thing we offer is a participation support service, which provides direct capacity building support to voluntary arts groups.

When considering how to promote arts, crafts and culture in Ireland, especially in the current economic climate, it is important to look as the sector as a whole. Consequently, we view the arts as an ecology in which there are many interdependent strands. One has local community voluntary groups, organisations and individuals, as well as high-flying creative people and world leaders. However, it is important to note they interdepend on one another and try to sustain one another. It is difficult to rob Peter to pay Paul in that situation and what one must do is to try to nurture sustainable activities within that. However, our focus is on the voluntary arts groups and we believe that an investment in that area is akin to tending to the roots, which we consider to be highly important.

Voluntary arts groups are the people who serve one's local community, such as one's local parish choir or one's band, quilting group, photography group or youth arts group. There are many thousands of them nationwide and they provide a number of key benefits. They engage more than 10% of the population in arts participation and present art to estimated audiences of 3.1 million people. They are a long-standing feature of many communities, with an average time in existence of 28 years. They have a deep reach and most serve a particular village or town. As a typical voluntary arts group only raises 25% of its money from grants, they have quite a sustainable model. If members are looking for areas in which to invest, it is an interesting area to think about.

In the space of a year, more than 100,000 volunteers gave time equivalent to 1,265 full-time employees at an estimated value of €21 million. These groups also engage professional artists on a regular basis and are a source of income for such artists. The total sector expenditure is estimated at €38 million and if one uses an economic multiplier of 1.5, this contributes €58 million into the Irish economy. As for how one might equate that to an expenditure of €1 in public grants, if one includes all the volunteer time and all the other sources, €1 gives back €11 to the economy. It is also well worth looking at from that point of view. On the other side, it brings people together through a shared interest, contributes to the well-being of individuals and promotes social cohesion. Referring again to your earlier question, Chairman, about the need to think about happiness and social cohesion in these times, the arts, especially local voluntary and community arts, are a good area to look at. Voluntary and community arts are often a person's first experience of the arts so they are an important seed bed for new talent. What they need most is recognition, support in capacity building, affordable spaces in which to operate and some skills development.

Thinking about how one might promote the arts, we recognise the contribution that art, craft and culture make to Ireland and to Ireland's economy through tourism, exports and other areas. Our ideas for promotion centre around making sure we promote them in our local communities. If art is not alive in local communities it will never make it to the international stage. It is very important to make sure local communities have a healthy and vibrant artistic offering.

I will finish with a couple of ideas. We think it would be a good idea to stimulate sustainable activities so there is a regular cultural activity that encourages people to get involved. We should encourage the arts sector as a whole to explore greater collaborative activity. Can we share resources? Can professional arts organisations do some capacity building for voluntary and community arts organisations in return for audience development? We should encourage innovation and ideas in people. We may not have the money to build nice buildings any longer but people with ideas will go a very long way. It would be good to embed arts activity where it can also effect positive change in communities in general, in health, among young people and in education, including adult and life-long learning. We must encourage more diversity in our approach to arts-based organisations. I am thinking about the social enterprise model, which it would also be useful to promote. We must continue to highlight the importance of individual artists because most are under-utilised. If we can create activities for them there will be an economic benefit. We could help local communities to attract visitors and investment through regular arts, crafts and cultural activities so we can use the success stories from those to contribute to the overall success story of Ireland and help with our positive image abroad.

Mr. Stephen Brown

Voluntary Arts Ireland is part of a network throughout the UK and Ireland. We have no members. Every voluntary organisation in the UK and Ireland is our member. They can get on our website free. They do not have to log in or have special codes or passwords. We send a weekly e-newsletter to 2,800 groups. Kevin Murphy mentioned that voluntary arts groups employ professionals. The fact is that very few professional singers would survive if it were not for the jobs they get from voluntary choirs. The same is true for drama groups, dance groups or any other group. It is a significant economic provision.

The other word Kevin Murphy used was "collaboration". We try to collaborate with a large number of organisations. He mentioned Lee O'Neill and CANVAS. We are delighted with our youth groups in the North of Ireland, where we were trying to create independence. We set them up but they go their own way now, run their own show and make contact with people in Dublin. We are thrilled with this. Laura, who has been mentioned, is now on our advisory committee. It is nice to have an 18 year old on the advisory committee, although it is a bit scary for the poor old chairman who has not been an 18 year old for a long time.

We try to offer people what they want and not what we prescribe. About 300 organisations in Northern Ireland came to us with their problems and we found people to solve them. The problems were various and mostly to do with administration, insurance, charities legislation and legal and other frameworks. They had little problems, not big ones, but big enough to annoy them when they did not know how to solve them. We were able to find someone to solve their problems for them.

Mr. Willie White

A Chathaoirligh, a Theachtaí Dála, a Sheanadóirí agus a chairde, táim buíochasach as ucht an deis seo cur faoi bhur láthair meoin na healaíne agus an tionscail chultúrtha maidir le hábhar an tráthnóna. An rud is tábhachtaí ar mhaith liom a rá ná cé go bhfuil an córas polaitíochta sáite le fadhbanna eacnamaíochta i láthair na huaire agus cé nach mbeidh an méid céanna airgid ar fáil sna blianta amach uainn, is féidir libh, le hinfheistíocht measartha éadtrom, saibhreas dúchasach an phobail a spreagadh agus a chothú. Beidh cinnithe tábhachtacha le déanamh agaibh amach anseo agus tá súil agam go mbeidh an fís agaibh na cinnithe cearta a dhéanamh ar mhaithe leis an todhchaí.

I am the director of the Project Arts Centre, which was established in 1966. I am also chair of Dublin Youth Theatre, a board member of Temple Bar Traders, a parent, a citizen and - dare I say - a patriot. This is why I am here to speak to the committee about the campaign for the arts.

A Chathaoirligh, you have referred to last year's meeting. I do not know if you have decided yet whether "The General" or "In Bruges" is the better of Brendan Gleeson's films, but I remember it occupied much of our discussion last time.

You were watching in.

Mr. Willie White

I was sitting in the public gallery. I wish you well in your ongoing deliberations on that matter. You may recall that one of the priorities of our campaign was that the arts would remain as part of the portfolio of a full Minister at the Cabinet table. I am pleased to see that in the reshuffle earlier this year this priority was shared by the Government.

The national campaign for the arts is also very grateful for the Government's continuing support for agencies such as the Arts Council, Culture Ireland and Film Ireland and the value that is placed on their expertise and strategic overview of their sectors.

Those who were present last October will remember the great atmosphere of that meeting, when Brendan Gleeson, Garry Hynes of Druid Theatre and award winning writer Colum McCann addressed the committee and spoke of how their careers and achievements spring from the investment of public money in artistic work. Without this encouragement at an early stage, they might never have developed to the point where we can now be so proud of their success.

When it comes to speaking about the achievements of Irish artists, there is a long list of international awards to choose from: Nobel prizes, Oscars, Man Booker Prizes, National Book Awards, Costa Book Awards, Tonys, Emmys, Oliviers, Grammys and so on. For a small country, we do very well. We prosper because the State has had, throughout its history, an enlightened approach to supporting arts and culture. Ireland was the first country to support a national theatre when it supported the Abbey Theatre many years ago. This support has grown in recent years and the dividend has been in increased opportunities for artists and audiences to make and enjoy work.

Proud as we may be of our artistic olympians, we must not forget the necessity to invest in the foundations on which their achievements are built. In the same way that it would not be possible to have the All Ireland finals without a network of clubs, schools and families, we would not be able to have an Abbey Theatre without there being an array of other opportunities for writers, actors and theatre artists. The festivals that so enliven the country, some of which you enjoyed, a Chathaoirligh, whether the recent Wexford Festival Opera or Oireachtas na Gaeilge, represent crescendos of year-round activity that relies on the diverse skills of amateurs and professionals, technical personnel, administrators, marketers, full-time employees and free-lancers, who provide the continuity from year to year. It is this delicate infrastructure that must be protected if arts, craft and culture are to continue to flourish. They reach into so many parts of our communities and we would be so much worse off if they were to be seriously undermined.

Arts and culture are not just enjoyed by Irish people. We know that sightseers and culture seekers have been identified by Tourism Ireland as an important market to add to the significant number of cultural tourists who already travel here. While we can welcome visitors to Ireland to admire the fantastic treasures and artifacts in our museums and imagine Ireland as it was in the past, this past makes no sense if it is not interpreted through a living Irish culture embodied in our people and in our artists.

I am based in Temple Bar in Dublin city centre. It is Dublin's cultural quarter. This is a major tourist destination which celebrates the 20th anniversary of the Act that established it in 2011. Project Arts Centre first arrived in that part of the city in the mid-1970s when the idea of a cultural quarter was a long way off. Project Arts Centre was part of the evolution from the proposed bus depot to one of the busiest cultural campuses in the country. From my perspective as director of Temple Bar Traders, I can see very well the integration of the cultural and hospitality offerings in the area. Temple Bar Traders has used culture in the past five years to create the TradFest, which enlivens the area in an otherwise quiet period in January. The staff has travelled to Scotland, Brittany, Germany and many other places to promote Temple Bar, Irish music and Ireland. Tourism and culture are part of the same ecosystem, with one supporting the other.

To give an example, I live in Phibsboro in Dublin and in September this year we had our first PhizzFest, the Phibsboro community arts festival. It was a fantastic few days that brought the community together and it was organised completely by volunteers with some financial support from local business. As well as amateur talent, the festival showcased the work of professional artists and writers, including Anne Enright and Dermot Bolger. The festival demonstrated the appetite of the community for artistic work in the neighbourhood, its tenacity and resourcefulness in bringing the vision to life and the interdependence of the different areas of arts and culture on each other.

Ireland is in trouble at present. Some dumb decisions were made and now it is time to get smart. Attention has been given to innovation and enterprise but in the rush to promote science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and those alone, we are neglecting other skills needed for a sustainable society and economy. We should beware of an approach that is all stem and no root. Good ideas are at the root of a smart economy. If we want to encourage ideas we must invest in thinking and arts and culture is one of the important places where this happens.

The report of the innovation task force underlined the necessity of an education system that fosters independent thinking, creativity and innovation. Such a system cannot exist in a vacuum but is nourished in a flourishing and reflective society. Since it mobilised, the National Campaign for the Arts has asserted the arts are good for jobs, tourism, the smart economy and rebuilding our international reputation. In the past these assertions may have been based on principle or conviction. Recently, however, we have been able to strengthen our arguments with hard facts. The report by Indecon economic consultants, commissioned by the Arts Council last year, demonstrated convincingly that investment of public money has a multiplying effect, generating jobs and economic activity and, importantly, returning revenue to the Exchequer. Every 50 jobs lost is another €1 million in social welfare payments so it makes no sense to undermine an area of the economy that is performing, creating jobs that cannot be outsourced, building communities, attracting tourists and carrying good news about Ireland around the world.

How can I sit here and make a case for the arts when the public finances are in crisis, when we cannot deliver a public health service or create enough jobs to replace to those that have been lost due to the calamitous decline in employment numbers? I do not see these as separate issues. Culture is essential to the well-being of a healthy society and economy. I hope I have demonstrated that the arts are not a luxury, they are a necessity, not an overhead but an asset.

There is a contemporary resonance in the words of Éamon de Valera from a speech made the year my organisation was established, on the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. It is fair to use it, although values have changed a great deal in the past half century. I find de Valera's vision appealing of a time where "communities are relieved from the pressure of exacting economic demands and free to devote themselves more and more to the cultivation of the things of the mind and spirit and so able to have the happiness of a full life".

I thank the delegations. There have been some fantastic contributions and we have heard some important voices from the community. Mr. White mentioned the Wexford Opera Festival. About 20 years ago, my wife brought me to Wexford when opera was a grey area for me as a music lover but I have gone every year since. Apart from appreciating opera more, I also appreciate the impact the festival has on the town and the business it brings to the area. That can be repeated for every festival.

I join the Chairman in welcoming the various contributors. They made an impressive case. I was present in the National Library last week when the National Youth Council gave an impressive presentation and made a strong argument for funding for youth arts in this country.

I was glad the NESF report, "The Arts, Cultural Inclusion and Social Cohesion" was mentioned. I was one of the Oireachtas representatives who helped to draw up that report. We worked on it for two years and spent a lot of time on it but I had not heard of it since until it was mentioned today. It tied up a lot of time for politicians, civil servants and others from the voluntary sector and was then buried. We wanted to establish an implementation group and the Minister made a commitment but it was never done. Why do we bother doing these reports when they are then put on the shelf and never seen again? I am glad that it was mentioned and it was noted that it singled out children as an important group for introduction to the arts.

We looked at the geographical spread of arts groups and facilities in this country. How does the National Youth Council measure up in providing a service across the country? Urban areas are well looked after but what about those parts of the country where there is very little arts activity? Is there a policy to try to reach all areas? Has the National Youth Council any network that stretches right to the periphery of the country and into disadvantaged areas?

The arts in education report by the Arts Council was published shortly after the last election but we have not heard a word about it since. Another report on that topic is now being drawn up and it is being buried too.

Ms Anne O’Gorman

It is entitled "Points of Alignment".

Again it involved a lot of time and expense and we have heard nothing since. There is no point in drawing up reports unless they are realistic and can be implemented. What is the total Exchequer funding for the National Youth Council? What percentage is put into the arts?

It is impressive that Mr. Murphy of Voluntary Arts Ireland is encouraging North-South co-operation. I am involved in a twinning relationship between Downpatrick and Listowel and it has worked well to get youth groups from both towns to interact. The arts are the main connection because people can express themselves, irrespective of community or religious divides, more than might the case in other areas. The arts are a great way of bring people together on a cross-community and cross-Border basis. I compliment the group on its work. Where does it get funding and how much does it get? How many staff are there in the organisation?

There is a proliferation of arts groups across the country, at times the numbers are mind boggling. How can a Minister communicate with them all?

I enjoyed Mr. White's presentation and we all agree with his remarks. Has he looked at the reduction in arts funding over the past two years which is really significant at approximately €20 million? Has he looked at how many jobs have been lost and how many projects have been discontinued? If the event of a further cut this year what are the implications for the arts community? If he has those figures perhaps he would inform the committee.

In 2002 when I was spokesperson for the arts I remember a cut of €5 million. Despite the increased funding in the following years it took the arts community two or three years to recover because it lost key personnel. Projects at the developmental stage had to be abandoned. Perhaps Mr. White can provide an analysis of the affect the cuts have had in the past two years on the Arts Council and the arts community generally and if there is a cut this year. Will the committee write to the Minister suggesting there should be no reduction in funding to the arts and that the present allocation of approximately €67 million be frozen on the back of all the arguments we have received because of the importance of the arts at this time in society.

The story we have heard today is the story we hear from everybody, that the arts make a very positive contribution at a time when our young people are under so much pressure. The arts are a great diversion while fostering creativity. They are challenging and an anecdote to what is happening, be it anti-social behaviour, the drugs culture and so on. The visual or the performing arts are very effective. They are very valuable and it is important that decision makers at all levels realise that when making decisions on cutting funding. In the same way that policy affecting rural Ireland is rural proofed, similar type proofing should take place in the arts to ascertain how it will affect the lives of young people and communities.

I will take all the comments first and then revert to our guests. I am interested in the question raised by Deputy Deenihan, that is, in the event of a reduction in funding what number of job losses would be envisaged? I will come back to that issue later.

I welcome the delegations and thank them for their presentations, especially the three young people who are at the coalface and have shown us very clearly the benefits. Just listening to them has been amazing. I say, "well done". There is great hope for us as a country. We need more people like them. We need more positivity and that has been delivered to us in spades today.

In lean economic times the arts are probably seen as a soft touch, at least that is the feedback one gets at times. People point to health, education and social welfare as areas of concern. All the delegates made a fair comment in one way or another in regard to the importance of the arts not just to the economy but to society. The Indecon report, published last year, spelled out very clearly the importance of the arts to the economy, not just to the immediate artists but all the spin-off at every level down to the electrician, stage lighting, cleaning, costumes and so on. Even from that perspective the arts are hugely important. What we need to do is clear our heads about the relevance of the arts and make sure arts funding is protected.

To be realistic, there will be cuts everywhere and that will not come as a surprise to anybody. We must ensure there are no disproportionate cuts to the arts and culture. Even in tough economic times, a comment I came across recently was that during the Great Depression in America the arts were used as a support to a nation suffering extreme privation. Despite being in a depression the public works of art project was created - the first Government programme supporting the arts of the United States. Its aim was to sustain the American spirit. We should do the same here and encourage that as much as possible.

While many of the questions have been asked I ask all the delegates to elaborate a little more from where their various sources of funding come? I know we all have to look to the Arts Council because that is where the Department money is directed and it is its responsibility to distribute that proportionately or as it sees fit. We must ensure that the funding to the Arts Council is not diminished in a way that will damage the arts and culture.

I disagree slightly with what Mr. Willie White said about science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Perhaps I should put my hands up and say I am a scientist. Parking that for a minute, they are not mutually exclusive by any means and he made that point. It is not just the smart economy but we have to link them. The whole IT sector will be hugely important in the arts into the future, such as gaming technology, but we do not necessarily park in the arts section as much as we should. We need to make that connection stronger between them rather than saying one is important in its own right, the arts are important in their own right. Each is important but let us link them up and get the best out of each of them.

I have been asking for a national audit on arts and culture facilities. Once again my fear is that we will wait for ever and a day to get that national audit. It is important that we know what is out there. The comment that everybody has been making indirectly is that it is not buildings and structures we need but people and investment from people and with people. It is much more important that we get everybody who has an interest in the arts engaged and sustained in it. If we lose that level of commitment and interest in the arts there will be serious societal consequences and we should not measure it only in economic terms. We have a huge responsibility to ensure society is protected in terms of the value and the spin-off effect from arts to the people.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegates. Some said how shy they were before getting involved. Their shyness has disappeared in spades. As Deputy Upton said they gave very good presentations. Arts is good for jobs, the economy and the spirit of a nation. The successes we have on the world stage are by and large of an artistic nature. We are always proud of them and it distinguishes Ireland from other countries.

On the issue of funding, given that we have been borrowing €20 billion for a number of years and will continue to do so, undoubtedly funding will be cut. In my previous life as a county councillor I was involved with a European committee promoting arts within local authorities. When the question of sponsorship came up, the idea was that artists should never ever have a corporate company name attached to them. I make that point in the context of where we are today. What are the delegates doing in regard to getting local and national sponsorship and is it a problem? We know that all sporting organisations name their stadia after the corporate company and equally the events whether it is hurling, football or soccer. The time has probably come for people in the arts world to consider doing the same.

Regarding the representatives' relationship with the Arts Council, and someone mentioned that 4.7% of the total budget is what they get, they make a good case for a greater share of that in the context where the Arts Council funding this year may be decreased. I am not the Minister for Finance but one would suspect that there will be cuts everywhere and it is reasonable to assume, therefore, that there will be a cut in arts funding as well. How can the representatives pitch for a greater share of the allocation made nationally?

On local authorities, what type of collaboration are the representatives involved in with all the authorities throughout the country, particularly on the use of premises? One of the contributors mentioned the need for premises. To my knowledge most county councils have a good deal of free space available. Are the representatives collaborating with them on getting access to premises and so on and doing joint ventures with them in terms of promoting local events and jointly sharing in funding?

Chairman, I am triply engaged and I may not be able to wait for the answers but I will follow them up later.

The Deputy must attend another committee.

I call Senator Jerry Buttimer and then Deputy Paul Gogarty.

Ba mhaith liom mo chomhgairdeas agus mo bhuíochas a thabhairt do na hionadaithe atá anseo as ucht na tuarascála a chuir siad os comhair an choiste inniu.

I welcome the delegation. I must first compliment our three young people, if I can call them young people - Ms Hurley, Mr. Riggs and Mr. O'Neill - on their tremendous presentation earlier. I do not wish to be patronising but we should use their presentations to give hope and inspiration to society because they were heartwarming, inspirational and showed that they have a vision of the good work they do, which I hope they will have an opportunity to continue in the future.

To be parochial, Ms Hurley is from Cork. I understand she had a good trip to Japan and I am aware from talking to some people who were involved with her in that regard that the idea came from the participation of young people in the city of culture, Cork, and it blossomed. I compliment Ms Hurley for her great presentation.

In the final paragraph of her contribution Ms Hurley made a very good point. We must look to the east also because the arts and our culture can have a resonance in the east. We have not done that as a society and it would be a great starting point.

I say "well done" to Mr. Riggs on his play. I would not like if he was not involved in the arts. He was competent in his presentation earlier. I say "well done" to Mr. O'Neill also. It is great to have young people come to the Oireachtas to give their viewpoint. I ask them to tell their friends, put it on Facebook and the other social networking site they use that they were here today and that they made an impression. Young people involved in the arts and in our culture can and are making an impression.

We only have to consider the uplifting stories which include U2, the Chieftains or, as Mr. White mentioned, the various people who are writers. As a nation we have a great gift and it is important that we use the arts and our culture to expand the brand that is Ireland and sell it abroad.

I have concerns about a number of areas. We will have cuts in the budget. We do not have a crystal ball and we do not know where the cuts will fall. Mr. White spoke about Éamon de Valera. I wonder what he would think if he was around today and how would he react to what happened. Mr. White is right. Bad decisions were made, but that is another day's work.

The Indecon report, to which Deputy Upton referred, dealt with the issue of jobs in the arts. What is the real implication of that, not just in the jobs area but for community arts and the small groups? I attended an amateur photographic exhibition in Carrigaline on Monday night which was superb in terms of the quality of the photographs, which were unbelievable. One would think that display had been put on by professional photographers. What is the implication of that local level? In that regard I welcome Tanya Banotti, who has been before us previously, and thank her for the great work she is doing.

Anne O'Gorman made a very good point in her presentation when she said we are at a tipping point. We have made a huge leap forward in terms of the arts and culture and the representatives are right. It would be a shame to go back down the hill in that regard.

I am curious to know what Mr. Gabriel Byrne is doing as the cultural ambassador for Ireland. Can we invite him to come before the committee to give an overview of what he is doing?

Speakers referred to STEM, science, technology, engineering and mathematics. The whole science area is where we must focus in terms of the smart economy but in tandem with that, as we have seen from Ms Hurley, Mr. Riggs and Mr. O'Neill today, the arts can play a vital role in giving us a regenerated role in terms of job creation and participation in the wider world. I hope we will do that.

Deputy Deenihan made a very good point. There is a myriad of groups involved in the arts, and I congratulate Mr. Murphy and Mr. Brown for their contribution. It is important that we build on the North-South axis and work on that because it is important that the voluntary arts groups are supported but I am concerned that there will be a sense of loss because of cuts in the budget. We are living in the real world and there will be cuts but from a cost neutral point of view, how can we build on the position we are in today?

I have been uplifted by the presentations of Ms Hurley, Mr. Riggs and Mr. O'Neill. I recommend that the committee secretariat publish the reports and thus make them available to the media as they were inspirational. These young people are a credit to their families and the organisations of which they are a part but, more importantly, to themselves for having the courage to come in here, be involved in this area and use their different creative talents. They should not lose hope. They should be hopeful about their future in their hearts and their heads. We need people like them.

The remaining members offering are Deputy Gogarty and Senator Butler.

I was touched by all the contributions. I will single out Mr. Sam Riggs for particular mention not only because of his colourful shirt but because he described himself as geeky and having issues relating to people. He spoke like a true thespian today. He put his point across coherently and if that is all down to the arts and culture, then the people concerned have done a very good job. I guess he already had his innate talents and abilities, as did the other speakers. His resumé speaks for itself.

I have heard what other members said and I will not repeat the points, nor do I want to make patronising platitudes like "sure aren't you great". These people are adults; they are not children. They might be young adults but they have an equal right to be here and they have put forward a case.

I am chairman of the Joint Committee on Education and Science and the standard of presentation from these people was as good if not better than that of the groups that appear before that committee. They put their points across. The key message from all the contributors was not only the social and cultural but the economic value of the arts to our society in these troubled times. That message has been received loud and clear.

As other speakers said, there are budgetary pressures at this time. One could call it an inevitability because the bailout for the banks is not a separate fund that we can suddenly transfer to spend. We must raise through taxation and cuts a figure estimated to be in the region of €5 billion to €6 billion this year. We will not know the final figure until the Minister for Finance mentions it. The figure of €15 billion is being touted as the amount that will have to be raised over four years. That is a colossal amount of money.

One task the arts community has been good at is delivering value for money. That is testament to the voluntary commitment people have given. The Wexford Opera Festival was mentioned. It dates back to the 1950s and it grew from nothing. Wexford was not seen as a cultural heartland of anything. As we heard from radio reports of the festival that commenced last week, it dragged itself up by the bootstraps and it is now internationally renowned.

Part of the problem in terms of attracting funding for the arts sector is that for many people the arts is a passion and a way of life. When one is so committed to something that it is one's meaning in life and one is so passionate about it that one does it for free, in many cases people will say let them work for free. The more people can emphasise the economic value of such a contribution the better.

I want to get some feedback from the representatives on some ideas. I would love to say let us massacre the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund again but, in reality, any money taken from it should be given to sport. We should bring in on-line betting tax and obtain revenue in that way. The horse and greyhound racing industries are self-financing.

We have heard a great deal about the bank bailouts and NAMA. There is talk in NAMA about their being a social dividend at the end of the process. We are not allowed to politically interfere in NAMA for very good reasons but it needs to said on record that NAMA should take cognisance of that fact.

The Minister of State, Deputy Cuffe, has been reported in the media and on public record as having said that some ghost estates may have to be totally demolished. There may be specific instances in Cork, Fingal or elsewhere where people are living in houses in one half of an estate but the other half of it is a ghost estate and it may be time to demolish that half of it because it has no intrinsic monetary value. In such estates that might be demolished why could two houses not be retained and the dividing wall between them could be knocked to provide a community arts centre? The running costs and the cost of the facilities tend to be the highest overheads in such centres having regard to the voluntary commitment of the people involved in them. Such centres would not have to be built in that the bricks and mortar are there and while they might not be ideal they would be arts centres.

Similarly, there are vacant warehouses in the industrial units throughout the four Dublin city and county councils and in other areas, which would have a massive amount of space to accommodate projects. Some of them have been turned into places where artistic exhibitions are held. In the context of such vacant premises in the ownership of local authorities, and some would be in the ownership of the IDA, now is the time for those authorities to show some leadership by donating some of the vacant premises. I note a vote has been called in the Seanad. I will conclude shortly as I know Senator Butler will have to leave to go to the Seanad.

I raised a question concerning NAMA. Another issue is if links with tourism could be better developed. For example, we have borrowed money from the Germans. Mr. David McWillliams said we have maxed out our credit cards on German savings. The Germans had a great vision and a romantic view of Ireland as a mythical country. Perhaps we could acquire some German money in a positive way by integrating the arts and culture into tourism more coherently because the Germans have money to spend. They love Ireland. If we can get them to come over here by offering a more diverse tourism package that would not be a bad thing. I would be interested to hear the delegates views on that.

I would also like to hear their view on CE schemes, the job initiative scheme and tying those into the arts and on better use being made of FÁS and if it could be integrated into the arts.

I welcome the group. It gave a fine outline of what it does in the arts. I was involved in the arts, particularly in the Cabinteely project. I recently visited the Bernard Shaw Theatre in Carlow, which is a fine centre. Huge improvements have been made in the arts and we want to maintain it. The delegates are the future of our arts and culture sector. I remember a great lady Ms Mona Weafer set up the Cabinteely project. That project began with programmes in the arts, dance, drama, photography, film and writing. It was a huge project and we did not have any money at that time. Ms Síle de Valera was the Minister with responsibility for the arts at the time and we managed to get funding from her for the project. She had a great artistic touch to the work she did as Minister at that time. We were able to develop that arts centre and it has gone from strength to strength. Dún Laoghaoire-Rathdown County Council got involved in it and the rest is history.

It was important for the sector that The Grainstore and other arts centres throughout the country were developed in recent years. The building of the Bernard Shaw Theatre in Carlow cost approximately €130 million. It is a fine centre for the arts and will benefit the community and the county. That is the most important aspect.

As members have outlined, there will be cuts. The youth arts is where the future lies in the arts. Teams are grown among the youth, whether it be in hurling, football or any other activity. If we did not have the participation of young people to bring new people into various artistic pursuits, we would not have the strong representation we have had in the arts. We must continue to do that and support the groups represented as best we can. They are the future for the arts. They will also give us the drive to help us get out of the current depression. The arts is one way of doing that. It is great to have people like the delegates here and we welcome them and want to see them much more often in here. They will have to excuse me as I have to leave to vote in the Seanad

I hope the Senator makes it. Does Deputy Upton want to add a further comment?

On funding, much was made of the improved funding of 14.3% for the arts between 2005 and 2009, which was great, but funding for the arts fell in real terms because inflation was running at 14.6% at the time. We need to get that point across. The improved funding was great but there was a drop in funding in real terms. We should try to retain the current level of funding rather than cut it.

I do not mean to be patronising in saying this but the delegates made very good presentations. We had people like Colum McCann, Sebastian Barry and Brendan Gleeson here on the last occasion.

They are amateurs.

Exactly. The delegates' message was as powerful, if not more powerful, as that of the delegation last year. I am delighted we have proceeded in this way this year because it is important that we hear from the people on the ground. On the smart economy, we talked about the innovative and creative area and that is why it is important the delegates share their views with us.

I agree with a point made by Deputy Gogarty. Mr. Kevin Murphy said that no new buildings were being provided for the arts. Deputy Gogarty's idea is a very good one. It was an idea which was at the back of my mind. Many buildings are vacant. While they may not all be very pretty, one can do things with them. I support the idea that we should examine where the arts could use vacant buildings in the ownership of local authorities or Departments. Perhaps the best way to proceed with that would be for the delegates to identify buildings that are vacant which rather than being knocked could be used for the arts.

I support what my colleagues said about the figures and I would like to hear the delegates' on that. I understand that approximately €83 million was dedicated to the arts in 2008 and that the figure for this year is €68 million. We are here to fight to maintain at least the status quo. That is the reality. That is my position on it as Chairman. However, if there was a cut of 10% in the current level of funding of €68 million, what kinds of jobs would be lost? We want to be as blunt as that about it. That would be apart from the effect such a cut would have on the structures, the corporate memory and managers, the leaders in society. Deputy Deenihan said that when cuts were made previously it took a while to get back to the level the sector was at prior to the cuts. I would be interested to hear the delegates’ views on that practical issue.

I and previous speakers mentioned festivals and how they benefit tourism by attracting domestic and foreign tourists. My sense is that we are doing well in that area, thanks to the participation of people like these delegates and the fact that we all are trying to extend festivals beyond the normal summer or late summer season. Perhaps they would comment on that. As I see it, we are being quite successful in that area. If they have views on that from their involvement on the ground, perhaps they would share that with us as well.

Those are really the points because all of the points have been made by my colleagues. I think the delegations get a sense of the genuine interest in this area among the members of this committee and the fact that all of us, apart from our constituencies, see what is going on as we travel throughout the country. In our interaction with artists, we know the fantastic joy and pleasure these groups are bringing to so many people. All I can say is, keep up the good work.

I now ask the delegates to deal with the specific questions. I saw Ms Banotti reacting on the figures issue. If she could cover that, then I will come back to Ms O'Gorman and Mr. White.

Ms Tania Banotti

I will answer two specific questions that were raised, one of which was by Deputy Gogarty on the issue of jobs. A 10% cut to the arts budget of €68 million, in other words, a €6 million to €10 million cut, would result in approximately 200 organisations being shut down and 400 to 500 jobs being lost. In terms of Theatre Forum, the organisation that I run, to give the committee an idea of the scale of the cuts already, 12 theatre companies had their funding withdrawn this year.

Deputy Deenihan specifically asked about two reports - the NESF report in which he was involved and Points of Alignment. The truth of the matter is that nothing has happened to both of those reports. If I could make one suggestion to this committee, in terms of the NESF report the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport was supposed to set up its own implementation group. That never happened and as we know, the NESF itself has wound down.

In terms of the Points of Alignment report, it is a little like an orphaned child. The Arts Council is taking care of it because there is not buy-in from the Department of Education and Skills. The one action this committee could take is to write to the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills asking what the Department is doing vis-à-vis the recommendations in that report because there were quite specific actions the Department could take which it has not taken. It is great that Deputy Gogarty is here because the resources of the Arts Council are infinitesimal in comparison to the resources of the Department of Education and Skills and if we want systemic change in terms of the arts and creativity within the primary and post-primary curriculum, unless we have buy-in from the Department of Education and Skills, the Arts Council can do little other than tinker at the edges. That is one action this committee could take in terms of the Department of Education and Skills. Indeed, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills could bring in a not dissimilar group to talk to the members interested in education. We have had some interesting talks with Dr. Anne Looney in terms of developing the curriculum, but we are not making progress with the Department of Education and Skills.

On Deputy Upton's question about a national audit of facilities, that is not such a big job if one is speaking about the buildings. The Arts Council has a database of publicly funded arts centres around the country. Obviously, the more soft elements are more of a moveable feast because they change.

On sponsorship, we have sat in this committee in the past when members have asked about sponsorship. We are not backward in coming forward looking for sponsorship but we must be realistic. Businesses sponsor in small ways and there are big properties such as the Dublin theatre festival which is the Ulster Bank Dublin Theatre Festival or the fringe festival which is sponsored by a vodka company, but big sponsorship goes to big properties. One might have the Guinness Jazz Festival, but a small local theatre group in Carlow will not get major sponsorship. It is disingenuous to tell us that we should go off and get the sponsorship because the public money will not be there. It will not fill the gap.

I will finish with one final figure. This country spends €68 million on the Arts Council every year. That is for every art form, every festival, every organisation. One senior civil servant in the Department stated that they would find that at the back of the radiator in the Department of Health and Children. Money is tight, but the overall sums of money are very small.

I welcome Ms Tania Banotti, who I did not formally welcome earlier because she was hidden away at the back.

Mr. Willie White

I have many questions to answer. Deputy Deenihan asked how a Minister is meant to deal with the dizzying array of organisations around the country. Fortunately, that is why there is the Arts Council. The Arts Council does a great job of ensuring there is a good return on investment for the €68 million.

Even the Arts Council finds it difficult to relate to all the various groups as well. In fairness, it does not have direct contact with all of the groups around the country.

Mr. Willie White

It would be the funder of professional art and it would fund other initiatives. Ultimately, that is its mandate. I guess what I am saying is, nonetheless, it does so quite efficiently.

On one of the opportunities, understandably, much of the work is centralised around Dublin and one should not have to come to Dublin if one wants to see art work. Certainly, one of the initiatives the Arts Council has taken recently, and, maybe we might argue, later than would have been ideal, is to try to incentivise touring. Somebody spoke about the George Bernard Shaw Theatre. There was a play which started off in our theatre in Dublin this summer and went to the George Bernard Shaw, to Blanchardstown, to Tallaght and to Cork, and would have gone further had we time. Understandably, artists will gravitate towards the big population centres, but that should not mean that the audience not living in those centres are disadvantaged. That is certainly something the Arts Council can do to address the issue.

It does not have enough funding to do so.

Mr. Willie White

That is certainly the case.

Is the national theatre, the Abbey, which gets €7 million a year, present around the country?

Mr. Willie White

It is not for me to defend the Abbey.

One must be realistic about it.

Mr. Willie White

I certainly think they could be more present, but they do not do a bad job altogether.

I did not mean to give Deputy Upton the wrong impression. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that there is not enough of a connection. My wife works in the Royal Irish Academy and she is very exercised by trying to get people to study mathematics. The point about it is that I was at an engineering workshop in the Royal Irish Academy where a chap said he was hiring people for a job in China - I think there were 1,000 jobs - and they got 10,000 applicants with PhD qualifications. At a certain level, the simple academic qualification will not make one employable. I was going around town on Monday night with a blogger from San Francisco who was brought over here by Enterprise Ireland for the web summit and she was saying the Irish are fantastic storytellers. By extension, the Irish are known to be great personalities to have on teams. As well as the engineering and the mathematical qualification, I would argue that in the simplest sense the arts give social skills and provide a fantastic opportunity.

At a conference last week there was a chap from the Irish games marketing association. Probably not many people know that two of the most important technologies used in computer games, havok and demon ware, were originated in Ireland by Irish companies, but the trick that we are missing is connecting our storytellers with our technologists. We could be massive. The same person stated that the games industry is where the movie industry was at the beginning of the 20th century. We do not even have a sense of the possibilities. I agree with Deputy Upton that there is a fantastic opportunity here for arts and science, technology, engineering and mathematics to get together for all of our benefit.

Senator Buttimer spoke about going east. We have artists coming back from Romania, which is to the east. This year we also have sent artists to India and to China thanks to another Government agency that is doing a good job with the modest amount of money it gets, Culture Ireland.

I, too, admired the young people's presentation but I would say that hope is not the preserve of the young. I, too, am hopeful. I know that we can expect cuts but I would encourage the committee to write to the Minister to argue for a standstill in our funding. It is really a small amount of money. As Ms Banotti stated, the impact is not only in terms of the jobs that would be lost if funding goes from the Arts Council but, as Deputy Upton referred to the Indecon report, all of the other jobs that those jobs create. It is a sad fact that many working in the arts are paid modestly to say the least. It would be as cheap to employ many in the arts as it would be to have them on the live register.

We have a fairly good physical infrastructure, as Ms Banotti acknowledged. What we need to invest in are the people who will make work in that infrastructure. Certainly, I agree with Deputy Gogarty. The chief executive of the Wexford festival stated on the radio that it gets €1 million in public money and returns €1.4 million to the Exchequer. If one takes that away, then nothing happens. The festival will be 60 years old. That is a fantastic example of something that started in an unlikely place and that, through a combination of the highest standards of professionalism as well as a substantial amateur base, is still such an international success. We need to nurture these.

I should not cut Mr. White short-----

Mr. Willie White

I have had my-----

-----but I rarely get the chance to pay tribute to anybody. There was one person I got to know in those early days, Mr. Jerome Hynes, and I just want to mention him. Sadly, he has passed away. He was Mr. Wexford Opera Festival when I got involved first.

Mr. Willie White

He was fantastic.

Ms Anne O’Gorman

On Deputy Deenihan's question about the kind of funding coming through the Exchequer into youth arts, there is no one legislative mechanism by which youth arts is funded or it is not anyone's responsibility. It falls partly across the Arts Act, partly across the Education (Welfare) Act 2000, partly across the Youth Work Act. It falls across many Departments and there is not an overall figure. In terms of the arts agency of the State, it receives 5% of the allocation.

What is the position with the National Youth Council of Ireland?

Ms Anne O’Gorman

The council does not provide funding, it is a resource organisation. The funding for NYCI as a whole is provided through the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. In one of the great examples of partnership between Departments and agencies, funding for the arts programme and NYCI comes, in matched form, from the Arts Council and the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

How much of its budget does the NYCI spend on promoting the arts?

Ms Anne O’Gorman

Our entire budget is €130,000 and this comes in the form of the matched funds to which I refer. Since the beginning of 2010, that money is used to fund a post and a half and the work we do in respect of the certificate in youth arts, the artist in youth work residency scheme, etc.

There is obviously a very good return for that money because the NYCI is doing a great deal of work.

Ms Anne O’Gorman

We are trying. I agree with what Ms Banotti said in respect of sponsorship. Broadly speaking, there are only four sources of funding - public money, that which is procured commercially or through business activities, that which emanates from philanthropy and private money. The tide has gone out in respect of these various sources. There is no spare funding available anywhere else. All sectors in the economy are experiencing this difficulty. There are sensitivities with regard to sponsorship, particularly in the context of young people. It is not possible, for example, to have Smirnoff sponsoring County Carlow Youth Theatre. There are issues of appropriateness with regard to sponsorship, which makes matters even more difficult for groups of young people.

The committee has just completed a report on sponsorship.

The committee has taken a view on alcohol companies sponsoring sport. I do not think we should investigate the position regarding the arts because we know the various bodies are quite starved of money.

Ms Anne O’Gorman

Yes. There are particular sensitivities or issues one must consider when it comes to sponsorship and young people.

In the context of youth arts making its case for a greater proportion of the funding available, it would not be useful to begin considering from whom such funding might be taken in order that it might be invested in youth arts. Instead of examining how we might divide up the pie, perhaps we should consider how new sources of funding might be obtained. The country will, hopefully, not always be in recession and we must consider, in a strategic sense, how we might develop overall investment in the arts and also how the funding available for youth arts might be increased.

A question was posed in respect of cost-neutral concepts, etc. It is no longer happening but in the 1990s there was an initiative whereby posts could be seconded from secondary schools into arts organisations. That was an extremely cost-effective way of bringing staff into youth arts. Teachers came from their posts in schools into different arts organisations. I accept that these staff members had to be replaced but there was an overall cost saving. In addition, partnership is a great way of operating. There is a great deal of work happening with youth organisations of venues and expertise being provided in partnership. Moves are also being made to quantify in-kind support. The arts office of Kildare County Council ran an initiative, "Shop Kildare" under which it allowed artists to use empty retail units in Newbridge as residency spaces. A recommendation in this regard is contained in the FYI report. The Arts Council consulted young people in March in respect of the next arts strategy and that was one of the matters in which the latter indicated a particular interest.

One of the members inquired as to how links with tourism might be developed. It really comes down to how we interact with other countries and how we promote the State abroad. Some 1.5 million young people - with the aid of funding from Léargas - participated in exchanges to other European countries. In addition, NUID was involved in a great initiative, EDERED, which involved European drama encounters. Under this initiative, every two years 20 different European countries each sent ten individuals - eight young people and two adults - to wherever a drama encounter was being held and then these were all mixed together and placed in different workshops. In these workshops, two young people from each of the 20 countries worked together over a two week period in conjunction with two adult facilitators in order to develop a dramatic piece which they then performed. Those encounters were wonderful, particularly in the context of European exchanges and building links.

I apologise for interrupting but I believe the Chieftains did something similar in China, where they were involved in some fantastic collaborations.

Ms Anne O’Gorman

There is another story involving either the Irish President going to Japan or the Japanese Prime Minister coming here and a discussion taking place with regard to WB Yeats.

A question was posed in respect of built infrastructure. It is important to point out that while we have wonderful built infrastructure, it is vital that funding be provided for high quality work to be put on in that infrastructure. People with the relevant skills and expertise should be working in this area.

It is great that we have discussed the concept of young people providing hope. We are all very hopeful as well. However, to quote one of the comments made in respect of the peace process in Northern Ireland "Hope is not a strategy". Hope is not the only thing we need in order that we might move forward.

Mr. Stephen Brown

Voluntary Arts Ireland receives funding of approximately £100,000, which equates to €120,000. With that we pay 1.8 full-time staff members and four or five temporary project staff. We try to squeeze everything we can out of every pound we receive.

Deputy Upton and Senator Buttimer inquired about the implications for community arts organisations of cuts in funding. This is an interesting question. Through our work we have found community arts organisations to be extraordinarily resilient and they do not require much in the way of money. Most of them have been in business for the past 25 years and are well capable of survival. They require support, not necessarily financial but in other forms. Our organisation tries to support these bodies through difficult periods. We cannot provide too much money but we do make expertise available and we can also exert a little influence.

Reference was made to sponsorship. Ten or more years ago, businesses would sponsor arts organisations because it gave them a warm feeling to do so. That feeling no longer exists and the commercial aspect has come to the fore. If a small organisation is running something in the absence of a great deal of exposure, those who provide sponsorship are not interested.

Mr. Willie White

Deputy Deenihan inquired about the NESF report, which I have read and which is very good. The report is on my shelf and I consult it occasionally. Its great observation is that cultural participation leads to social cohesion and sustainable communities. I did not use the quote from Éamon de Valera lightly. In that context, we must ask the question, "Once one has achieved political freedom, what kind of country does one want?" The description contained in the NESF report is certainly attractive to me.

With regard to the use of vacant shop units, those involved in the Phizzfest in Phibsboro are obliged to pay rates and cannot afford to do so. We have asked the committee to write to the Minister and we thank it for committing to do so. However, it is inevitable that there will be a general election in the next 12 months. Recently, we have been extremely preoccupied with our economic troubles. As a result, the cultural and artistic aspects of the various parties' policies need to be brought up to date and made more robust. We hope members will ensure that this happens and that they will encourage the Minister to do no harm.

I thank our guests for their contributions. Mr. White summed the position up very well. Our guests can rest assured that the committee will support their position. They have our commitment in that regard. Mr. White's point regarding the fact that a general election is not far away is well made. We have all become so preoccupied with matters relating to finance and banking institutions-----

I suggest that Deputy Tom Kitt be reappointed as Chairman of this committee following the next general election.

I thank the Deputy. I am of the view that all political parties should make the arts an important aspect of their manifestos during the general election campaign, whenever it might take place. I thank our guests and assure them that we will play our part.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 17 November 2010.
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