JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 8

Irish Aviation Authority: Presentation.

Chairman

Representing the Irish Aviation Authority, I welcome Mr. Eamonn Brennan, chief executive officer; Mr. Donal Geaney, chairman, and Mr. Denis Hegarty, head of strategy.

I wish to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege which does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. That notwithstanding, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such as a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the representatives of the Irish Aviation Authority to make their presentation and hope they get as much publicity as the last people who were here.

Mr. Donal Geaney

I thank the Chairman and the committee. We are pleased to have the opportunity to talk to the committee about the operation of the Irish Aviation Authority, an organisation of which we are proud. With me today is Eamonn Brennan, who was appointed chief executive of the authority from 1 January last and has served on the authority in various capacities since 1995. Denis Hegarty is head of strategy and joined from the Department when the authority became a semi-State body in January 1994. I propose to give the committee an overview of what the authority is and what its purpose is and Mr. Brennan will take you through its operations.

The IAA was set up by an Act of the Oireachtas in 1993 and became a semi-State body in January 1994. Its over-riding responsibility is to ensure the safety of civil aviation in Irish airspace. It does that through two different aspects of its activities. One is the safety regulatory division of the IAA which is responsible for the inspection of aircraft, aircraft operators, airports, pilots licensing, licensing of maintenance organisations and so on. The second important aspect is the running of the en route air traffic control systems, covering aircraft that fly across Ireland to and from the north Atlantic and Europe, and air traffic control for terminal operations at the State's three airports. We are also responsible for communications on the north Atlantic, operated through a HF radio station from Ballygereen. We have some supporting commercial activities which are largely training, where we use the surplus training capacity of the authority from time to time to train other aviation providers.

The authority has 667 staff who are located in various parts of the country. The principal area of our activity is just outside Shannon Airport where we have 340 staff. There are 158 at Dublin Airport, 33 in Cork Airport, 76 at head office and 60 in the safety and regulatory division whose duties can take them all over the world inspecting Irish aircraft. Eamonn Brennan will now take us through the operations of the authority.

Mr. Eamonn Brennan

I will take the committee through the detailed presentation. It will take about 20 minutes. To follow on what Mr. Geaney said, the principal objectives and remit of the authority is the implementation of safety standards that are set internationally by the International Civil Aviation Organisation and authorities such as the joint aviation authorities in Europe and IASA. Effectively, the aviation authority's job in Ireland is to implement international standards and we take a serious role in carrying that out through auditing Irish aircraft and so on.

The activities of the authority are regularly audited by the International Civil Aviation Authority and the joint aviation authorities and, every three years, by the Minister for Transport, as per section 32 of the Irish Aviation Authority Act. In relation to safety, the main job we have is to ensure the safety standards of Irish operated aircraft and Irish aircraft operators. To give the committee an idea of the dimensions of the task that we face, the safety regulation involves four main elements. In relation to aerodromes and air space, we regulate safety standards at the three main State airports at Shannon, Dublin and Cork and we licence and regulate the safety standards at 11 other public licensed aerodromes, for example, Sligo, Galway, Knock, Waterford and the 13 private licensed aerodromes, which are smaller operation like Coonagh, Abbeyshrule, Castlebar and smaller airports. In addition to that, we ensure the safety of the Irish transport fleet. There are 237 large public transport aircraft on the Irish register, whereas there are just 109 on the Belgian register and 200 on the Dutch register, so the Irish figure is significant. We have 434 smaller aircraft in the State, which are private aircraft, trainers, Cessna 152s and so on and we have 46 approved maintenance organisations. Principal among these would be FLS, Lufthansa, Airmotive and so on. We also look at the operations of aircraft operators and airlines in Ireland. We regulate 19 airlines. Members will be familiar with the larger ones such as Aer Lingus, Ryanair and Cityjet but there are other smaller airlines on the Irish register.

We have approximately 1,200 student pilots and 1,800 commercial pilots whom we test and issue with licenses. We simulator check them in relation to Airbus and Boeing pilots. We have 490 aircraft maintenance engineers for whom we set the standards of their education and monitor their skills to ensure they are capable of carrying out repairs to the highest international standards.

The final aspect of the authority's work is air navigation regulation. We have 278 air traffic controllers in Ireland and we regulate their standard and the airspace and the radar and communications systems. That gives a rough idea of the dimensions of the industry. The second part of the activity of the IAA focuses on our air navigation services. There are three main parts to this. There is en route air traffic control services, which is aircraft that over fly and do not land in the State. This accounts of 65% of our revenue. The second main element is terminal ATC operations, which is aircraft landing in Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports, which accounts for 11% or our revenue. The third element is the north Atlantic communications which accounts for 16% of our revenue. In total, the air navigation services account for 92% of our revenue.

It is important to realise that the Irish air navigation network is very much part of an integrated European network. Europe, air traffic-wise, is still organised on a national basis. It is much more complex than it needs to be. The main reasons for this are historical: sovereignty, national boundaries and so on. I will return to this later on in the context of the European single sky initiative, but it can be seen that it is quite a complex system.

The map indicates the main areas in which there were air traffic control delays in 2002. Green does not really mean go, but red definitely means stop. The London area and the south east of England has been the main bottleneck for the past five years. Often, when one is sitting on the ground at Dublin Airport and one hears there is an air traffic control delay, it is not because of delays in Irish air space but that before the aeroplane can take off there must be clearance from the central flow management unit in Brussels to fly through UK or French air space on the way to one's destination. The point is that often the delay is not necessarily caused in Ireland because we are part of a system.

The North Atlantic, because of Ireland's situation, is very important strategically. Effectively, the strategic position of Ireland means that we pick up a substantial part of the traffic flowing between North and Central America and Europe. The Shannon FIR and SOTA - the Shannon flight information region and the Shannon oceanic transition region - is the area in which we provide air traffic control services. The other area indicated is where we provide the north Atlantic communication services. The IAA provides services in both these regions. To put our business in context, 70% of the traffic to North and Central America uses Irish air space, so we are in quite a good position from a practical point of view.

Inside the yellow box is the area in which we provide actual air traffic control services and the larger red box is the eastern part of the North Atlantic, where we provide communication services. The air traffic control services in the red box are provided from Prestwick in Scotland. The members can see that our position is strategic - we pick up quite a good deal of the traffic from North and Central America to Europe and vice versa.

We have radar coverage approximately 250 miles off the Irish coast in all directions. We have four main radar sites: at Dooncarton in County Mayo, Dublin Airport, Shannon Airport and Mount Gabriel in west Cork. The yellow area is the area in which we control aircraft that are coming in from the Atlantic. The essential service we provide, which is unique in Europe, is that we take aircraft from the Atlantic, separate them into the correct flight levels and then assign them onwards towards Brussels, Frankfurt, Paris or Geneva depending on where they are going. Our role is unique: we often refer to Ireland as the marshalling yard of Europe. The traffic in the North Atlantic does not actually have radar coverage: the first radar that aircraft meet after coming across the Atlantic is Irish radar at the interface about 250 miles west of Galway.

To give a summary of our performance, the main comparison relates to our performance in 2002 over 2000. We chose 2000 because 2001 was not a very good year to compare - it was a very unusual year for aviation. In the upper airspace we had virtually no growth. A significant part of this was due to the weather patterns of the North Atlantic. More significantly, we were down 7.4% in terminal traffic in the State airports of Dublin, Shannon and Cork. On the North Atlantic, which is probably the best figure for overall traffic, we are down 5.5% over that period.

Moving on to our business performance, it is important to realise that the IAA is a cost recovery organisation. Effectively, we bill all our costs to the airlines and we recover them through the Eurocontrol charging system. When we make a profit, it is effectively a profit on the return of assets to the State or on the usage of the assets. The statistics show that our profit before tax was down 15.7% last year, which is reasonable in the context of the general performance of the aviation industry world wide.

The next chart relates to our charges. I draw the attention of the members to the international cost-competitiveness of Irish aviation, particularly our air traffic control charges. There is a standard measure for overflying charges and we charge aircraft that overfly Ireland based on their weight and on the distance they fly. Ireland has the lowest overflight charges in Europe and has had for several years. In the UK, for instance, the charge is about €82 per unit while we are charging about €29 per unit.

Chairman

Michael O'Leary must be very proud.

Mr. Brennan

Well, he does not give us much stick, but I am sure we will hear from him. That is a very useful chart for dealing with him.

I want to deal with our systems upgrade project. The members can see the consoles for our new air traffic system at Shannon. Our company has to spend on technology: it is a high-technology company. We are putting a new air traffic control centre in Shannon that will control the upper air space for aircraft flying over Ireland. We are also putting a new centre in Dublin. We are employing modern technology and we expect that the Shannon centre will open in the first quarter of 2003 and the Dublin centre in the second quarter of that year. We are following on with an upgrade to Cork late in 2005.

All our systems are currently operating within budget and on time. This is in contrast to the UK and Sweden, for example, where many of the air traffic systems operate three, four or five years behind time. These systems are complex and very safety-dependent. Our new system, which will come on stream next year, will give us the capacity to meet the projected growth in Irish air traffic until approximately 2015 based on a 3% to 5% growth curve per annum. The total cost of our new systems was €108.5 million. This was financed totally from the resources of the authority: there was no recourse to the Exchequer. It is financed commercially on the bank market.

What are the future challenges for the authority? There are four main areas. The single European sky, representing the increasing involvement of the European Union in air traffic management matters, the environment - the business environment in which airlines operate and the economic environment in which passengers operate - the technology - the need for ground systems and avionic systems and the increasing involvement of the EU in the European Air Safety Agency. Looking at it from a practical point of view, aircraft do not notice any bump as they cross a boundary line, moving from one state to another. There is a very fragmented approach in Europe and it is very much along national lines.

As one flies from Greece to London, for instance, one passes many states and traffic control centres. Just to give an idea of the current picture, in 2000 there were 27,000,000 million minutes of delay in Europe and the average estimated cost to the airlines that year was €4 billion. This did not please Michael O'Leary. There is €8 billion of associated costs with passenger delay. What we are looking at is a very fragmented approach in Europe, with 44 states, 57 air traffic service units and 71 area control centres.

It might be useful to show the committee how Europe compares with North America. I draw the attention of committee members to the second line of the chart and what is known as ANSPS - Air Navigation Service Providers. In Europe there are 57 organisations that are the equivalent of the IAA, providing air traffic control. In North America there are two - one in Canada and one in the United States. If one looks at the movements at the very bottom of the chart, we move 17.2 million aircraft per year in Europe, North America moves 22.5 million.

Significantly, and this is a factor that impacts very much on the profitability of airlines, the cost of an average flight in the United States is €380. That is for a flight from, say, New York to Washington. However, a flight from, say, Frankfurt to Athens - involving the same distance - costs €667. We are looking at about 40% more cost to provide air traffic services per sector in Europe than in North America——

Chairman

Is that why they are all filing for chapter 11 in America?

Mr. Brennan

We will come to that in a moment. One can see the rationale of the European Union in moving to centralise air traffic control, and the map that I have put in front of the committee shows what the EU is trying to do. This very much poses a challenge for the IAA. We basically have to be part of this solution. The Nordic air traffic region is already agreed, the Maastricht region is agreed, CEATS is agreed, the Iberian peninsula is agreed, and obviously some arrangement with Ireland-UK needs to be agreed. The EU calls these areas functional air space blocks.

What it is trying to do, in common with other industries such as telecoms, airports and so on, is to shake out the industry and liberalise it. The main point to note in relation to the European single sky is that competition is coming. This has happened in other industries and we see the main beneficiary as the consumer because the cost of providing the service should come down and service levels, we hope, would go up. The main point to note about the IAA, however, is that we are positioned between two major players, the UK on our right and Canada on our left, depending on which way one looks at the map. We regard it very much as an opportunity. We have a competitive edge over the UK. Our costs are about one third of theirs and we see the single sky as a way of Ireland expanding its influence on the north Atlantic. It is also important that we retain the ability to provide this strategic service from an Irish perspective.

The EU is talking about 31 December 2004 as the planning date for this. On our strategic horizon, this is something we must get involved in and from which we must benefit. There is no point in trying to resist it as it is a difficult thing to do.

The second area is the business environment. I think we all agree - and the committee has had representations from Michael O'Leary and Aer Lingus - it is a difficult time for aviation. If committee members look at the chart in front of them, particularly at the pink line, it gives the figures for what we call oceanic air flights that is, over-flying aircraft in the North Atlantic, over the past 20 years. During the 1970s we had very flat growth, and it basically started to move upwards in 1984. There was a large acceleration through the 1990s and then, suddenly in 2001, we experienced the first significant dip in the aviation industry in perhaps the past 25 years.

This presents us with a challenge and we are bringing big systems in line and borrowing at a time when the industry is starting to dip. Looking at our key customers, and following on from some of the remarks of the Chairman, we get 24% of our business from North American customers and 27% of our business from European customers, so our national airlines are not as significant as one would think from reading the press on a day to day basis. United and American are in chapter 11, Air Canada filed for bankruptcy last week, Sabina is bankrupt, Swiss Air is bankrupt and BA, Lufthansa and Air France have announced capacity cuts ranging from 5% to 15% over the past month. Members will be aware of Aer Lingus's major restructuring programme.

It is fair to say that the low cost carriers have been the major beneficiaries of this. Having had Ryanair here, the committee will be aware that carriers like Ryanair, easyJet and Southwest have done very well in recent years. This is because they provide a different focus and cost structure.

On safety regulation, our core activity, the European Union is becoming more involved in this and we are seeing increasing European standardisation of national standards. Europe is establishing a central safety agency called EASA which will operate from 2003. This will produce European standards for air-worthiness and operations. It will apply regulations about pilot training and pilot standardisation in Ireland. It will also put standards in place for aerodromes so that there should be a single standard throughout Europe. Even though we all operate to ICAO standards, there are varying degrees of interpretation of the standards throughout Europe and it will very much provide a level playing field.

What will probably happen to the IAA in the near future is that we will require legislation to implement the EASA and we will very much be an Irish branch of the European Air Safety Agency in our safety regulation activities.

Obviously the most important of our key objectives for the next five years is the maintenance of a strong safety record. We pride ourselves on this. It is not something we take for granted and we work very hard at it. We also must secure and safeguard the Irish role in the provision of air and navigation services, particularly in light of the proposals of the European Union in regard to the single sky. Obviously we have to control our costs and our competitiveness. If we are not competitive and providing the service efficiently then there is no technological reason it cannot be provided from somewhere else. That is something that is different from ten years ago. Technologically, it is possible for us to provide air traffic services in South Africa, so we have to make sure we are cost effective.

We also have to adapt the IAA to the new technology and conditions imposed by the single sky. We are a high-technology company and are investing very considerably in technology. I am proud to say that when we commission our new centres next year we will have the most advanced air traffic technology in Europe, capable of dealing with satellite down-links and all of the modern radar and tracking technology required.

Facing the year ahead, we have a number of issues relating to capacity at Dublin Airport and so on. We are being consulted on the second runway at Dublin Airport.

I thank the committee.

Chairman

Thank you very much for that very interesting presentation. Some of us, unfortunately, have to go to Brussels. I will be leaving, as will a number of other members, but Deputy John Ellis will take over the chair. I have a couple of quick questions. Where does JAAR stand in relation to EASA regulations? Are they the same or is one connected with the other?

Mr. Brennan

Yes, we are fully compliant with the JAAR - that is, the Joint Aviation Authority's regulations. I understand the JAAR will be converted into AASA regulations in the next year or so. My understanding is that what is currently a JAAR will flow seamlessly into an AASA regulation over the next year.

Chairman

Is all pilot training in Ireland currently under JAAR?

Mr. Brennan

Yes, it is under JAAR flight crew training.

Chairman

It has been brought to my attention that approximately 80% of pilot training in Ireland is done by one provider who is a former member of the IAA. There is concern among some people that this person is getting preferential treatment.

Mr. Brennan

The IAA does not do training for pilots. The training done by this individual is private training for private pilot licences rather than heavy commercial aviation by and large. It is not true to say that 80% of training is being done by this person.

Recently we licensed other operators and we have other applications. No preference is shown to any operator. Ryanair and Aer Lingus do pilot training in Oxford, Prestwick and Michigan. Much of the commercial training is done overseas and validated in Ireland. There is no preference——

Chairman

I am talking about pilots with smaller operations. There is a feeling that the JAAR regulations and the previous regulations still overlap to give preferential treatment to this one provider, who is a former employee. That is not coming from just one person but from a number of people who contacted me when they saw the IAA was coming in. They feel this is not distributed fairly among those who provide or wish to provide pilot training.

Mr. Brennan

Again, we only respond to applications we get. We do not decide who does this. If we get applications we license them and we recently licensed other people. If someone wants to set up a flight training operation in Ireland we will give them every assistance. There is nothing in the IAA about giving preferential treatment to anyone. The person referred to is a former member of staff who resigned and set up this business. He was from air navigational services so no preferential treatment is afforded to this individual.

Deputy Naughten

I thank the IAA for its presentation. It is heartening to see Mr. Hegarty's presentation and to see the IAA is actively seeking the section of the single European sky which controls Ireland. It is positive to see a semi-State take a proactive approach, rather than as happened in the past seeing a semi-State trying to hold onto the power it has rather than looking to further expansion in Europe. It is imperative that we agree the single European sky as it is fundamentally important for safety. On 2 July last we had an incident arising from the huge difficulties with transferring aircraft from one air traffic area to another; that seemed to cause the difficulty with the Russian passenger jet and a DHL jet coming from Italy. The same obtained in the IAA investigation into a flight last November where there were difficulties with Shannon handing over to Prestwick and vice versa. As we have 57 air traffic control zones in Europe it gives rise to concerns about the possible risk. There is a question about safety and it is imperative to get this agreement. It makes commercial sense to have this agreement and it is good to see the IAA being proactive in this regard.

In relation to EASA and the IAA's current policing role, the IAA states it has responsibility for Irish registered public transport aircraft. What is the position of the IAA on aircraft which use Irish airports but are not registered here? What controls do we have over those? What is the IAA's view of the UK report last year which stated that because low cost airlines are under pressure to meet schedules they are endangering passengers by ignoring air traffic controllers? Has there been any IAA investigation of this? What is its view of this report?

Last September some newspapers carried an article on security at Dublin Airport, with a former criminal being appointed as a security officer in the control tower there. What new procedures have been put in place to ensure this does not happen again at Dublin Airport or other airports run by the IAA?

The air traffic control services at the three State airports are run by the IAA but in the regional airports the air traffic controllers run those services. My understanding is that the IAA collects the money from aircraft which use those facilities but nothing is recouped by the regional airports for the facilities they provide. While the IAA is charging airlines, and rightly so, for facilities at the three main airports, it also charges for services at other airports. That could be a significant source of income for those airports if that money was refunded to them. There is a big debate about Government subsidies for regional airports and their viability. What are the delegation's views on that?

Mr. Geaney

The single European sky should be beneficial not only from a safety point of view but from an operational viewpoint, reducing costs and delays because in theory it would allow the scheduling of aircraft directly from when they enter European airspace to their final destination. At present we have a hotch-potch where aircraft enter Irish airspace then go across through others and so on. Members will have experienced this in going to Brussels - one may find oneself over London because of the way the routes work.

The aircraft involved in the tragic accident crashed in Germany but were being controlled by Switzerland. It was a frightening situation in which a Russian aircraft approached from the east and an American DHL aircraft was heading north. They ran into each other and the problem was not the handover but the fact that the air traffic controller did not see the collision coming early enough to prevent it. One would not have that problem, presumably, if one did not have people trying to manage different areas of air traffic control and handing flights over. That is certainly conceivable.

I will ask another member of the delegation to deal with the operation of the IAA at regional airports.

Deputy Naughten

As the IAA is to have the most modern technology in Europe, will it look at tendering for any of the other five projects under the single European sky project or looking at South Africa or elsewhere to provide air traffic control there?

Mr. Geaney

Not yet. It is interesting that South Africa was mentioned as we have had direct discussions with the chairman of the South African aviation authority about providing air traffic services in Africa in general. We have also spoken to our colleagues in the UK, Germany and the Netherlands as to how we might interface and play a role in future.

Mr. Brennan

On the Deputy's second question, I understand it refers to foreign aircraft using Irish airports. There is no prohibition on foreign aircraft using Irish airports. Normally, they file a flight plan and we expect it on our ATC system. The flight plan identifies the type of aircraft, including the engine type and whether it complies with the noise chapters. It then lands at an Irish airport and we collect the charges in the normal way. Another point to note is that we also conduct ramp inspections on foreign aircraft which land in Ireland. If, for any reason, it is drawn to our attention by the ATC at the local unit, or by the airport authority, that there is a safety concern in relation to an aircraft, we will carry out a ramp inspection. In the past year, we carried out about 60 ramp inspections, compared to about 240 in the UK. It is quite a regular feature. Aircraft from all over the world land in Ireland. There is no problem involved - it is part of the international system.

On security at Dublin Airport, I recall the specific incident to which the Deputy referred. We had employed a security firm to carry out security duties at Dublin Airport and the proper procedure was not adhered to in obtaining security clearance for a temporary member of staff. Since then, we have changed the security company and totally revamped the procedures. We have had a Garda report on our facilities at Dublin and Shannon and on our radar facilities, which is almost finalised and we have implemented, or will implement all of the Garda recommendations over the next two or three months. Security awareness of staff has been raised considerable and we have taken direct and positive action.

With regard to the regional airports such as Galway, Sligo etc. we do not levy a landing charge at those airports. That is collected by the local airport authority. Perhaps the confusion arises in relation to overflight charges. If one flies from Dublin to Galway, for example, one will pay us a charge for the on route service from Dublin to Galway. That payment relates to the maintenance of radar separation between aircraft using the same track. We do not receive any landing charges and the regional airports do not receive any over-flight charges. This whole issue is currently under review with the Department of Transport, specifically in relation to Galway Airport. I am not sure if that answers the Deputy's question.

Deputy Naughten

No. My question relates to a situation where, for example, a flight leaves Sligo Airport, which is close to the Chairman's heart and part of the on route air traffic control is covered from Sligo, after which it is handed over to Dublin, as I understand it. For the element of air traffic control covered from Sligo, there is no mechanism available to Sligo Airport to collect fees. I understand the Aviation Authority collects fees but there is no recoupment to the airports involved.

Mr. Brennan

The key point which the Deputy made is that there is no mechanism to deal with that situation at the moment. The answer is that we do not collect fees for take-off, landing or final approach segments. That is handled by the local airport, being collected by Galway, Sligo or Kerry airports, as the case may be. It is in relation to the "piece in the middle" that we collect.

Deputy Naughten

The mechanism is not available at the moment to recoup that. That is the issue in this regard.

Mr Brennan

That is correct.

Chairman

Basically, the Aviation Authority collects charges for supplying an on route service. I take it that, shortly after a plane has taken off, it comes under that authority's jurisdiction, is that right?

Mr. Brennan

That is correct.

Chairman

Who receives the landing charges in Dublin?

Mr. Brennan

Where we provide a service at Dublin, Shannon and Cork, the IAA gets the landing fees.

Chairman

Where it provides a full service.

Mr Brennan

Yes - the approach service. I am referring to the ATC landing fee. Aer Rianta has a separate landing fee.

Chairman

I know that.

Mr. Brennan

There was one other question which I did not answer. On low cost carriers ignoring air traffic control instructions, there was some press speculation on this last year but we have had no incidents of that nature. We take a very rigorous line in that regard. If any carrier, low cost or otherwise, ignores an air traffic control instruction, a mandatory occurrence report is filed and investigated by the safety regulation division. Action is taken directly with the pilots and the aircraft operator concerned. Contrary to the speculative press comment, we take a very strong line on that issue.

Deputy Naughten

Is it the case that there are more reports in this regard in relation to low cost carriers than the more traditional carriers? That seems to have emerged from the British report.

Mr. Brennan

I can honestly answer "No" to that question. It is not disproportionate to size.

Deputy Shortall

I welcome the delegation and thank its members for their presentation. On the issue of airlines ignoring the advice or directions of the authority, what sanctions are applicable for such breach of regulations or failure to observe instructions? Also, I ask the delegation to spell out the implications of the European single sky situation for the authority. Are there implications for the IAA as an organisation? It was not clear from the presentation how the new arrangement would work, where the authority will have responsibility for Irish air space and the UK?

Recently, this committee had a discussion with Aer Rianta on the proposal for a second terminal at Dublin Airport. What are the views of the IAA on that? I am not sure if the authority made a submission to the three-man committee on the matter. It was the view of Aer Rianta that the separation times between flights were too long. We were discussing the question of exploiting the full potential of Dublin Airport as it now exists. Aer Rianta was strongly of the view that there is potential for a much greater level of traffic but that there was a difficulty due to the separation times between flights being too long. Is there a standard time set at European or world level in that regard? I would welcome the comments of the delegation on that.

My next question relates to the use of Shannon Airport by military aircraft. In reply to Dáil questions, the Minister has informed us of the number of exempted flights in recent years in relation to foreign military and some other flights in respect of which the IAA recoups charges for over-flights. I believe the amount for last year was €1.6 million and €1.3 million for the previous year. Is there any information available on the level of traffic to date and the costs which the IAA will recoup from the Department of Transport? Another aspect of foreign military flights relates to terminal charges. The Minister was not in a position to provide information in that regard. He said it was a matter for the Irish Aviation Authority. What are the authority's receipts, in terms of terminal charges, from those exempted flights? What are the figures for the current year to date and the two previous years?

With regard to the downturn in the aviation industry over the past year or so, are there implications in that context for the staff of the Irish Aviation Authority?

Mr. Geaney

With reference to the European single sky, there are obvious implications for the Irish Aviation Authority. The European safety agency is also coming in with the single sky project. The air traffic and the regulatory elements are coalescing and becoming more trans-European rather than national. It is not certain but is likely that the Irish Aviation Authority will become an agent of EASA for the regulatory division over time.

How air traffic services are provided will depend on how we negotiate that. It is up to us to negotiate what will be a complicated arrangement. There are issues surrounding the sovereign airspace controlled by Ireland and integration into Europe, which is a political issue to be resolved. We want to have a role in that and can see great benefits for co-ordination of activities between Ireland, the UK and other countries.

We think Ireland is very well placed. It has proven that it is a low cost operator, and the lowest in Europe in terms of providing these services. We have no delays in our airspace so we would argue that Ireland should be used. However, that remains to be played out over the next number of years.

Deputy Shortall

If the intention is to have seamless airspace, does it not follow that there would be seamless air traffic control organisations?

Mr. Geaney

Yes, it does. I am saying that we would want to negotiate our role within that. The authority does not see how the current arrangements can improve unless they are changed. The Deputy may recall the blue box on the map shown, which is the worst area of delay in Europe; it is UK airspace. The London region, effectively, has the worst delays in Europe and there are all sorts of reasons for that. It is not all about the volume of traffic but partly about the management of the airspace and partly about and a lack of investment in technical systems at an early enough stage. The UK authorities did not take all the measures which were taken by the State here and by the Irish Aviation Authority. That is why we are ahead on the curve.

Deputy Shortall

Who will finally adjudicate on those issues? I imagine that could be quite difficult.

Mr. Geaney

I suspect it would be political. It will be between states and an issue of sovereignty between governments. I hope that answers that question.

With regard to a second runway and capacity at Dublin, from an air traffic control and operational point of view a second runway would be very desirable. It would then be possible to have a landing runway and a take-off runway. It would not be necessary to schedule aircraft to take off when other aircraft are coming in to land. There would not then be the separation issues which were referred to, and which are present in the context of a single runway.

From time to time one reads press reports of aircraft that have had to circle around because there was an aircraft on the runway when they came in for their final approach. People also query whether the separation is sufficiently long, which is the opposite of the query the committee heard from Aer Rianta which asked whether it was sufficiently short. This happens when a pilot comes onto a runway and for some reason - there is something wrong with his check list or he is not comfortable about something - does not move out quickly enough. This means that another pilot will have to go around, depending on the separation.

Deputy Shortall

Has the authority monitored separation?

Mr. Geaney

The Irish separation procedure was six miles up to some years ago but I am not certain when that was changed. When the rapid exit taxiways were built on 1028, the main runway in Dublin, it was possible to reduce those separations. I am not aware that this is the most efficient method in that there is another mile in it at some airports whereas we are down to three miles. It is possible to reduce to two miles at some airports but it would be very difficult to do that in the context of a single runway operation. A pilot on the ground cannot be forced to take off if he or she is not comfortable that his or her aircraft is safe. The pilot must be given priority to sit in place until he or she is comfortable to go. If there was a second runway, there would be no problem with this. The authority has no other opinion on the matter.

Mr. Brennan will present the facts with regard to foreign flights.

Mr. Brennan

I will deal with sanctions first. If pilots ignore air traffic instructions, the Irish Aviation Authority is the regulatory authority and two things happen. First, there is an investigation as to why a pilot acted in a certain way - sometimes there is a valid reason though not often. If there is a suspicion that instructions were wilfully ignored, the authority has procedures in place to prosecute the pilot and suspend his or her licence. That is, obviously, the ultimate sanction for a pilot.

Second, and more importantly for an air operator, if, for example, it was ingrained in a company's procedures to approach the airport at a higher speed and to get some economic advantage from this, the authority has the power to prosecute and to suspend the operating licence if it is deemed that any operation being conducted is unsafe. To date, the authority has not had any reason to do this but it is something that we are aware of and on top of at all times.

Deputy Shortall

Has the authority ever undertaken prosecutions?

Mr. Brennan

Yes, we have prosecuted pilots but, in the recent past, not commercial pilots in the context of the ignoring of an ATC instruction. We have prosecuted in the context of unlawful activity or of the use of an aircraft in an unlawful manner. However, those prosecuted were not commercial pilots and such prosecutions are very rare.

On military aircraft, a point worth making is that the authority provides air traffic control services to all aircraft using Irish airspace which have filed a civil flight plan. The statistics sought by the committee are as follows: in 2002, the number of over flights was 8,716, 1.9% of total flights; in January-February 2003, the number of over flights was 1,919, 2.8% of total flights; in 2002, the number of terminal military traffic flights was 545; and to the end of February this year, there were 62 military flights. I do not have the figures for March at present.

Deputy Shortall

What revenue does the authority raise from those flights?

Mr. Brennan

Mr. Hegarty will check that and I will return to it. Regarding staff, the downturn has not had any implications for staff at present. We have taken measures to make the authority more competitive. We have leased some air traffic controllers to the ATC service in Germany and are also considering carrying out manpower leases with other ATC service providers. Irish air traffic controllers are well regarded and English, the international language of aviation, is their native language. We have not seen any major effects caused by the downturn and will not unless it becomes very pronounced. The authority is fine at present but is undertaking proactive commercial activities to reduce any impact on staff.

Deputy Shortall

Does the authority foresee redundancies?

Mr. Brennan

No, not at the moment. When I get the revenue figures I will give them to the Deputy.

Chairman

The figures can be sent out to Deputy Shortall. How many trainees per annum does the authority take in on average?

Mr. Brennan

Approximately 25.

Chairman

Are those positions advertised?

Mr. Brennan

Yes.

Deputy P. Power

I also thank the IAA executives for coming before the committee. I come from Limerick which is close to Shannon where the majority of its operations are based. I have an impression based on anecdotal evidence from meetings and acquaintances with a number of the authority's employees that the operation in Shannon is a highly sophisticated and professional one. I compliment it on that.

Some 340 members of staff are employed in Shannon with a further 76 at headquarters in Aviation House, which would suggest that the headquarters is outside of Shannon. Am I right in saying that?

Mr. Brennan

It is on Burgh Quay in Dublin.

Deputy P. Power

Is there any reason more than 50% of staff are based in Shannon yet the headquarters' is elsewhere?

Mr. Brennan

This is not the first time the question has been asked. The licensing office for the safety regulation division is based in Dublin. Most of the pilots get their licences at head office. We also have dealings with the Department and so on. More than half our staff are in the Shannon region. If one adds the staff that are in the Dublin Airport operations and at head office we have many safety regulation staff as well. The actual number engaged in purely corporate head office activity is about 45 which is quite a reasonable proportion. We feel it is a reasonable mix that gives us a good balance and it has worked well over the years.

Deputy P. Power

Most of the questions I intended to ask relating to the new scenario arising out of the single skies policy have already been asked by Deputies Naughten and Shortall.

It appears that the Irish Aviation Authority will effectively become an agent for the EASA as a consequence of the new system. What percentage of the overall turnover relates to the agency elements of the business?

Have there been any serious deficiencies or problems identified in the IKEO audits to which the authority is subject on an annual basis of which we should be made aware? I would also be interested to know what would be the typical charge for a jumbo jet flying from New York to London over-flying Ireland?

I have no further questions. Other Deputies asked the questions with regard to Europe which are also of interest to me.

Mr. Geaney

I believe some 8% of turnover comes from the regulatory division.

Deputy P. Power

So most of the authority's operations will not be affected by the new European regulatory regime.

Mr. Geaney

No. There are some 60 people involved in the regulatory division out of a total of 660 so the 8% is pretty close on a per capita basis as well.

We are subject to IKEO audits as well as numerous other audits. We have not had a major issue arising from any of them. Every three years the Minister for Transport has an audit carried out as a final check which includes inspecting the IKEO audits and all the other different things that go on. It is always done by some third party who is a non-Irish regulatory expert of one kind or another which is pretty satisfactory.

Mr. Brennan

In regard to the last part of Deputy Power's question, it is a difficult calculation to make because it depends on the weight and the distance of the aircraft. Without holding me too firmly to it, I would say it is approximately €300.

Chairman

I return to a question that was put earlier in regard to the applications for training services and the number of people involved. Is there a set procedure for somebody who wishes to make an application to become a recognised training provider for pilots?

Mr. Geaney

Yes, there is. There is a set of regulations that was introduced under the joint air regulations of the JAA. There are so many different bodies involved in this that it is confusing. It introduced new regulations which came in some two years ago on the flight training regulations. It is a standard procedure for application and review.

Chairman

How many are pending and what is the average time it takes to get one processed?

Mr. Brennan

I understand there are two pending. There is no average time as such. I will outline what one needs to demonstrate to get the flight training licence. To provide a flight school one has to demonstrate that one has all of the following: the required capital; qualified instructors with the necessary hours; properly maintained aircraft; procedures in place for maintenance of the aircraft engines and for keeping records. One also has to have a location where one can provide the services safely and in varying weather conditions.

In theory, an application could be processed in some five to six weeks. There are a number of applications which have taken from between 12 to 15 months to process because the applicant had not complied with one or other of the requirements. If we are not satisfied that the operation is safe it does not help anybody if we proceed regardless. The system is fair and transparent.

Chairman

I have a final question with regard to aircraft registration. Are all aircraft that are registered with the authority operated from Ireland or can aircraft be certified here and not come back until their next check is due?

Mr. Geaney

That can happen.

Chairman

In what countries are most of those aircraft based?

Mr. Geaney

Generally speaking, those aircraft are owned by leasing companies. For instance, in the past, GPA, had a number of aircraft on the Irish register that might have been operating in the Philippines or elsewhere in the Far East. It is strange to see an aircraft in Filipino colours with an Irish registration on the back of it. It makes one feel one is at home.

Mr. Denis Hegarty

There are 105 aircraft operating on lease abroad. They can operate anywhere. Our staff supervise them from Dublin and travel to these places to do it.

Chairman

How often does it have to be done? The NCT for cars has to be done every two years.

Mr. Geaney

There are inspection requirements for every aircraft which come into play after a certain number of hours or landings or cycles. There are different stages of checks. An 'A' check is a basic level of check with 'B' being more rigorous and so on.

Chairman

It is like any other vehicle. There is a similar type of procedure. How do the charges for those inspections compare with those of the UK?

Mr. Hegarty

We would say we are competitive. The UK has a different way of charging to us. The number of aircraft we have on our register is an indication of the fact that we are competitive. As Mr. Brennan said, we have a higher proportion per head of population than Belgium or Holland.

Chairman

That is to be expected with only 3.5 million to 4 million people. The graph in the presentation revealed the charges to be the most competitive in Europe - if not in the world. Are the authority's other charges competitive and is it envisaged that the charges will be increased at some stage?

Mr. Hegarty

The charges shown in the presentation are identical to those charged by every state. We can compare readily with other states. When one speaks of a charge for a certificate for air-worthiness one has to specify if it is for five, three or two years and the type of inspection procedure that goes with it. For that reason, it does not compare as readily as the en route charges across the world. We have a higher than average proportion of aircraft on our register and this shows we are competitive. While we do not want to be cheap, we want to be competitive.

Deputy P. Power

While I do not advocate this policy, if the authority has a virtual monopoly in overflights of Ireland - this is a strategically important route to North America - is there anything in theory to stop it increasing its price threefold or fourfold?

Mr. Geaney

There is no bar in theory to doing this, except in so far as we do not have control over pricing in the pure sense. Pricing is determined by our expenditure and profit is not profit in a commercial sense. The profit earned by the authority is a percentage return on the net assets invested in the process. If we were inefficient we could increase our charge as we operate on a cost recovery basis. That is why people elsewhere can charge four times more than we do. If Europe is coalescing there will not be any willingness to adopt the procedures of the organisations that are four times more expensive than an efficient operator. The State took the decision some time ago to efficiently operate aviation activity here. That decision was taken before the authority was formed and we have carried it through. While we could be inefficient for a short period, the way in which things are coming together would mean we would not survive for long if we did so.

Deputy Shortall

The authority is one of the efficient public service companies.

Mr. Geaney

Thank you.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Geaney, Mr. Hegarty and Mr. Brennan for meeting with the committee and being so forthright.

Mr. Geaney

I invite any member of the committee who would like to see any of our facilities to contact us and we would be delighted to facilitate them. When we are opening the new centre in Shannon in 2004, we would be delighted if members of the committee would attend it and see what is going on there.

Chairman

I think that is an invitation you will be taken up on.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 15 April 2003.