JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2006

National Roads Authority: Presentation.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Wilkinson)

I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, Deputy Ellis. He will return in a short time. I welcome Mr. Fred Barry, chief executive, Mr. Michael Egan, head of corporate affairs, Mr. Gerry Murphy, head of PPP and tolling, Mr. Hugh Cregan, head of programme management, and Mr. Seán O'Neill, head of communications, from the National Roads Authority. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose that Mr. Barry make a short presentation before we take questions and answers. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the Acting Chairman for the opportunity to provide an update on the national roads programme for members. I am pleased to report that 2006 has been a particularly busy and successful year for the authority, with the completion of 12 major projects to date. These include the N7 Naas road widening and interchange scheme and the N8 Rathcormac-Fermoy PPP scheme, which was completed eight months ahead of schedule. Both projects have removed thousands of vehicles from those towns each day. On the N2, the Ashbourne-Finglas and Monaghan bypass schemes were completed. A further four schemes — the Kinnegad to Tyrrellspass section of the N6, the N18 Ennis bypass, the N25 Kinsalebeg project and the Dublin Port tunnel — will be completed before the end of the year.

Ten major road projects, comprising almost 170 km of new road, have commenced construction since the start of the year. These schemes include the N6 Kilbeggan-Athlone route, N8 Cashel-Mitchelstown route, N8 Cullahill-Cashel route — the longest road project undertaken in Ireland to date, at 40 km — the N9 Carlow bypass and two PPP projects, the N7 Limerick tunnel and bypass, which includes a submersed tube tunnel under the Shannon, and the N25 Waterford city bypass, which includes a 225 m main-span cable-stayed bridge over the river. These developments, together with the N7 Nenagh to Limerick project, which is scheduled to commence before the end of the year, will help ensure the achievement of the Transport 21 objectives, particularly completion of the five major inter-urban routes by 2010.

Another major milestone in delivering these routes was the approval in March by An Bord Pleanála of the Fermoy-Mitchelstown scheme. This means that compulsory purchase orders and environmental impact statements for all sections of the major inter-urban routes have now been approved by the board.

Significant progress is being made on phase 1 of the M50 upgrade project, which involves an additional lane in both directions over a 6 km section, and the upgrading of interchanges at the N4, Galway road, the N7, Limerick-Cork junction, and the Ballymount junction. This phase of the project is scheduled to be completed in 2008. The tender process for the balance of the M50 upgrade is well advanced and construction will get under way next year. The authority is actively advancing arrangements for the introduction of free-flow tolling at the West Link bridge and tender submissions will be received shortly from the pre-qualified consortia. Construction of the Dublin Port tunnel has been completed. Commissioning of the safety and control mechanisms is under way and the tunnel will open to traffic on 20 December.

Road safety continues to be a high priority for the authority. We hosted a major road safety conference in March and we continue to implement a range of engineering measures, including traffic calming schemes, on the approaches to towns and villages and targeted remedial measures at high risk accident locations. Working with local authorities, we also carried out hundreds of pavement and bridge rehabilitation schemes this year.

I received notification of a question by Deputy Lowry regarding the N62, which runs from Horse and Jockey to Athlone. The most recent traffic data on this road at Sharavogue show an average traffic level of 5,800 vehicles. This is typical of national secondary routes. At the low end, they carry between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles, while at the higher end, they carry up to 13,000 vehicles, although the N81 exceeds this. Two bypasses on the N62 at Thurles and Roscrea are at preliminary design stage. The authority provided €200,000 to North Tipperary County Council this year to enable feasibility and traffic study work on the Thurles scheme to continue. The traffic study was carried out in September and it is expected the feasibility study will be submitted to the authority by the end of the year. We also provided funds to the council to commence a feasibility study on the Roscrea bypass. In addition, we provided €3 million for pavement and minor improvement works to be carried out this year on various sections of the N62.

Acting Chairman

I compliment the NRA on the Kinsalebeg bypass in County Waterford. While the decision was belated, it was very welcome and the bypass is of great benefit to the area in terms of safety and convenience. I have received a number of complaints regarding the Rathcormac-Fermoy bypass because a significant volume of traffic is still travelling through both towns. Why is that?

Mr. Barry

I appreciate the Acting Chairman's kind words about the Kinsalebeg bypass. It is an example of our listening and responding to what is being said on the ground.

Part of the basis on which tolls are introduced is that there must be an alternative route available for drivers who want to use the tolled route. Inevitably, when an alternative route is available, people elect to use it. Traffic is still going through Fermoy and Rathcormac and we would prefer it if it were on the tolled route. We are providing additional funds through Cork County Council to help with certain traffic calming measures in both towns, which will perhaps discourage a number of pedestrian crossings and so on. We hope and expect them to be of benefit to the towns.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I thank Mr. Barry for the presentation. I will confine myself to Dublin issues, particularly the port tunnel and the M50, which are so topical. Earlier, the Taoiseach responded to questions by Deputy Rabbitte in the Dáil about the newspaper report that negotiations were coming to a close on buying out the concession for the toll bridge on the M50. The Taoiseach reiterated NTR's argument that if the toll barriers were lifted, it would add to the chaos. NTR's word is being accepted that the traffic would worsen without a trial being undertaken, even though intuitively I know that is absolute nonsense and defies the evidence of my eyes. I accept the traffic is so bad that removing the toll booths would not have as great an impact as it would have had in the past. However, there are times during the day when the traffic delays are caused solely by the toll barriers. Is it possible at least to raise the barriers on a trial basis to ascertain the impact that would have?

If the State has decided to buy out NTR at a cost of approximately €1 million per week over the 12 years remaining on the contract, it would make sense to buy ten minutes in the morning or three ten-minute periods during the day to alleviate the delays. It is absolute torture for people who must use the M50 to get to work and for those who live in the vicinity of the road. Their lives are dominated by this wall around the city and it is insupportable that they should be asked to continue to live like this for another two years. Nobody understands how dreadful it is to have to plan to leave one's home in the middle of the night because of traffic, which is ludicrous. Would the NRA buy ten minute periods? Would that help in any way? What was the authority's advice to the Government on this issue? Does Mr. Barry agree with NTR that it would make no difference?

I refer to the working hours on the M50 upgrade, which are similar to those that pertain to the construction of housing in a residential area. The machinery lies idle at weekends when it would make more sense to do the work because the road is at its least busy. Can the contract be amended at this stage or can it be ensured that phase 2 provides that the maximum hours are utilised? I appreciate work cannot be done 24 hours a day but an effort should be made to speed up the work by increasing the number of hours worked.

Mr. Barry reiterated the announcement that the port tunnel will open shortly. I am not terribly clear about the purpose of the tunnel anymore. It is the most expensive infrastructural project in the history of the State but, according to Senator Morrissey, the port is being moved up the coast. Therefore, the only people who will use the port are those living in the area and why people would want to use the tunnel remains unanswered. Nevertheless the port remains in use. Has anybody worked out whether the benefits of clearing the quays of HGV traffic outweigh the cost of dumping it on the M50, which is a construction site? Has the NRA negotiated with local authorities or with the Government on this? Has Mr. Barry a view on the sense this makes? Having spent almost €1 billion on the tunnel, Dublin City Council would like to open it but is it in everybody's interest?

I refer to the phase 3 upgrade of the Western Parkway, which is never discussed, and I am worried about that. Who is organising the upgrade of the parkway, which is also in the ownership of NTR? Is the State buying the route back from the company or will the company continue to own it? What is the parkway's legal status? Who will be responsible for the upgrade? Who will own it at the end of the day?

Deputy Shortall

I thank Mr. Barry for the presentation and I congratulate the NRA on the progress made on the roads programme.

I refer to the West Link. I accept Mr. Barry has taken up his position only recently, but does he accept there has been an incredible lack of forward planning for transport infrastructure for the Dublin area? When the port tunnel opens belatedly next month, an additional 9,000 vehicles will be forced to use the M50. Some 2,500 of these will have to use the West Link, which will add to the existing chaos. Will Mr. Barry explain — I know his predecessor and others were responsible — why no planning was done and why a system of open road tolling was not put in place prior to the addition of heavy goods traffic from the tunnel? It seems one arm of those responsible for transport did not have a clue what the other arm was doing and that there was a complete lack of co-ordination. Unfortunately, it is Dublin commuters who will pay the price.

The mind boggles at the thought of what will happen when we have 2,500 extra heavy goods vehicles passing through the West Link each day. Bearing in mind there was inadequate forward planning for this does the NRA accept drastic measures must be taken to deal with the situation that will arise over the next two years? We have been told it will be at least 2008 before we have open road tolling and that it will take a number of years for the M50 upgrade work to be completed. Does the NRA accept that lifting the barriers or, at least, having the freedom to vary the application of the barriers would help? Perhaps it could try to encourage a more even spread of traffic across the 24 hours of the day, have some kind of incentive scheme to encourage people to cross the West Link before 7 a.m. or after 8 p.m. or develop some similar tactic in an effort to cope with situations where there is an unacceptably long tailback waiting to get through the West Link. The NRA, as the roads authority, should at least have the scope to try and manage the traffic on the West Link better over the next two to three years when conditions will be exceptionally difficult. Would Mr. Barry accept that this kind of latitude in respect of the operation of the West Link should form part of his negotiations with NTR in terms of the eventual take-over of the contract?

With regard to the M50, the planning permission lately granted to IKEA concerns roughly the same area, principally east of the West Link, where from next month we will have all the extra trucks. We have seen exceptional growth at the airport and a significant amount of airport related traffic using the M50. In addition, we have the prospect of large volumes of traffic trying to access the proposed IKEA development. In this regard, I refer again to the lack of co-ordination between different State agencies. Will Mr. Barry explain the thinking on how the M50 will serve the IKEA development? The NRA and Fingal County Council seem to be completely at odds on this. Fingal County Council has its area plan for the north Ballymun area, which includes IKEA and other developments. It suggests a slip road off the M50 to serve that area, but it seems the NRA has been consistently opposed to that. The matter did not seem to be given adequate consideration in the recent planning process, but I hope it will be given consideration in the appeal process. Can Mr. Barry explain the lack of co-ordinated thinking between the NRA and Fingal County Council in that regard?

I wish to ask about the Dublin Port tunnel.

Acting Chairman

I am sorry to interrupt, but the Deputy has been speaking for some time. I would like to call Mr. Barry to reply.

Deputy Shortall

I apologise; I will finish with two brief questions. Has the NRA finalised the contract price on the Dublin Port tunnel? I understand some considerable payments remained to be resolved. Where do we stand with regard to the final contract price for that project?

As a local resident and public representative in the Whitehall area, I have serious concerns about what is likely to happen in terms of traffic management at the tunnel exit and for the short stretch between its northern portals and the M50 slip road. The bulk of the traffic exiting the tunnel will veer left to go onto the M50, but the bulk of ordinary traffic from the city centre will veer right for the M1. Can we have some assurance on that? What are the contingency plans for managing the situation if it goes horribly wrong?

Mr. Barry

Both Deputies Olivia Mitchell and Shortall raised the question of the lifting of the toll barrier. The traffic problems on the M50 require that the toll barrier, the carriageways and the junctions be sorted out. Removing the barriers before we have work done on the neighbouring junctions or carriageways would simply move the problem up and down the M50 with no overall benefit and that is our advice to the Government. When the junctions around the toll booths are brought to a free-flow condition and the road is widened, we will see benefits, even without the completion of the upgrading of the M50.

Currently, to raise the barriers would not help the problem because of the junctions. For example, raising the barriers while the Galway road or the Blanchardstown junctions are in their present condition would simply move the problem up and down the M50 without improving the situation. I appreciate some people may have different views on this, but that is our opinion.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Why does the NRA not try it out for ten minutes?

Mr. Barry

If one were to try any traffic measure — we have spoken about this before——

Deputy O. Mitchell

I am being facetious when I say ten minutes, but a trial period ——

Deputy Shortall

Try it for a week.

Mr. Barry

We have said with regard to other questions of traffic management that if we make a significant change, we must give it a long time to work through and settle down before we know what the effects will be. From the practical point of view, doing it for a short period would not tell us how it would work over a longer period.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It should be done for a longer period then.

Mr. Barry

In the longer period we will have reached a situation where the improvements have been made. Thank God, that is less than two years at this stage.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I did not mean that long.

Mr. Barry

I understand there are different views on this, but we were asked our view. Obviously, we are open to direction from the Government.

Deputy Shortall

In the negotiations with NTR has the NRA looked for any flexibility to manage the current situation or for over the next two years?

Mr. Barry

We have not, but if we wanted to give direction to NTR that it should go to zero tolling, that could be done. However, we do not advise the Government to do that because we think it would just move the problems to other pinch points on the M50. Also, much public money would be given to NTR to achieve that.

We are constrained in the hours that can be worked on the M50 and by the approval that we received from An Bord Pleanála. The restraints are in two forms. One relates to rock breaking work, including the breaking up of surfaces. That work can only be done Monday to Friday from 8 a.m to 6 p.m. That is a severe restraint on the type of work we are currently doing. There is a second broader restriction on work outside those hours, whether in the evenings or over weekends, to do with noise levels at the boundary of the site. That constrains very much what can be done in the evening and at weekends. If left to ourselves, we would prefer to work longer hours and get the work done. However, we recognise that An Bord Pleanála must strike a balance between our desires to get in and get the work done and the views of the local residents, many of whom made representations looking for restrictions of this nature.

It is not in our gift to change it. It is not a matter of the contract between ourselves and the builder, except to the extent that the builder has to comply with the restrictions included within the planning permission.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Would it not be possible to appeal, to revise permission?

Mr. Barry

I do not think we can appeal.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Perhaps not to appeal it but to look for a revision?

Mr. Barry

In theory we could go for a judicial review but I do not see any grounds for a judicial review of the An Bord Pleanála decision.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Even within the restrictions, there is flexibility to do the work. The rock breaking for this phase is done, or at least most of it is done.

Mr. Barry

Indeed. There has been a noticeable increase in activity out there in recent months. Much of what was going on earlier was diversion and foundation work and was restricted in what it could do.

The Deputy asked what the constraints were. Not only have we not constrained the contractor, we have put everything possible in place to encourage the contractor to complete the work as quickly as possible.

Deputy O. Mitchell

However, he is specifically required to stop work at lunch time.

Acting Chairman

I ask Deputy Mitchell to allow Mr. Barry to reply, please.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I apologise.

Mr. Barry

On the question of whether the tunnel is of benefit in taking the traffic off the quays, I really do not know what studies were done back in the 1990s when the tunnel was being contemplated or even if the studies that were done then would have held up very well since. I am sorry I cannot answer that question.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Does this mean no study been done since and the tunnel is going to be opened and we will just see what happens?

Mr. Barry

As the Deputy said, the tunnel will be opened because it is there now. One would not turn away whatever benefit is available in getting the traffic out of the city centre.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Is it a benefit overall? That is the question.

Acting Chairman

Please, Deputy.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I am sorry, Chairman, but the delegation is here to answer questions.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy was given good time and I ask her to allow Mr. Barry to answer.

Mr. Barry

It is of benefit to get the trucks off the quays.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Does this benefit outweigh the cost to the rest of us living in the vicinity of the M50 and all the traffic that uses the M50? Has any cost benefit analysis been carried out?

Mr. Barry

Until the M50 is upgraded, the traffic on the rest of the M50 will be in its present very unhappy state.

Deputy Shortall

That is worse.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It will be very unhappy.

Mr. Barry

The majority of the trucks do not go as far as the West Link and I think the Deputy is aware of that.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Yes, I am.

Mr. Barry

I just want to state that clearly. The majority of the traffic that will be put into the tunnel and taken off the quays does not go as far as the West Link. For the trucks going as far as West Link, it is much better that they go around the M50 than going through the city centre.

On the western parkway and the upgrading of that section of the M50, this is part of the NTR concession at the moment. Subject to finalising details which we are negotiating with NTR at the moment, the upgrade of that section will be proceeding next year and we have already done some advertising as required by the EU procurement rules. We will organise and manage it. The ownership of that section of road will be in State hands when done.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It will be passed back to the State?

Mr. Barry

Yes.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Is there a consideration to be paid to NTR for that road or is that part of the tolling?

Mr. Barry

That will come out in the glorious detail of the negotiations that are going on at present.

Deputy O. Mitchell

That is a "Yes".

Mr. Barry

I do not think so; I think I said that will come out in the wash.

On the West Link and whether it would have been better if the ETC, electronic free-flow tolling, had been in place some years ago, the answer is, "Yes, it would". It would be better if the M50 had——

Deputy Shortall

All the HGVs will arrive at the West Link. It is just incredible that there was no planning done for that.

Mr. Barry

I cannot offer the Deputy a commentary on the decision but if she is asking me whether it would be better if the tolling were replaced, I would say "Yes".

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should allow Mr. Barry to continue.

Mr. Barry

On the measures that might be taken around the West Link, I have given my views on the balance between the interchanges and the carriageway and the junction itself.

IKEA poses planning considerations that go far beyond the remit of the NRA, so I will not address those issues in the very broad sense. From the point of view of the NRA, it has been agreed with all the Dublin local authorities to have a scheme implemented to improve the M50. We are very anxious that mistakes that may have been made in the past are not repeated in the future as they relate to traffic and traffic management on the M50. The NRA has concerns that the traffic associated with IKEA as proposed may overload the nearest junction on the M50 as it is at present. Before the planning permission was granted, we were in dialogue with Fingal County Council on that topic. Fingal County Council has in place a study to look at strategic traffic issues in the area to include IKEA but also to include what may happen with Dublin Airport and the other developments in the area.

Acting Chairman

There is a vote in the House. I apologise to the delegation.

Sitting suspended at 4.05 p.m. and resumed at 4.25 p.m.

Acting Chairman

I ask Mr. Barry to continue.

Mr. Barry

Regarding IKEA and its planning application, Fingal County Council is preparing a strategic traffic plan, which it had started before planning permission was granted. It agreed with us what would be covered. In that sense, there is co-ordination is between us. We hope it will have the plan completed in the near future.

All the final contracts for the Dublin Port tunnel have not been finalised. We are engaged in dispute resolution with the main contractor. The projected outturn figure of €751 million allows for the likely outcome of that dispute resolution, as advised not only by our internal staff but also by all the professionals supporting us on the matter.

We were asked about the northern end of the tunnel where traffic will emerge, much of which will subsequently join the M50. We have added another lane to the road going north. The junction of the M50 and M1 has been prioritised as part of the PPP upgrade project and will be the first section completed. We are confident that when all this work is completed, everything will work smoothly.

Deputy Shortall

The issue is the criss-crossing of traffic. Will the bulk of traffic from the city and emerging from the tunnel not be changing lanes at that point, leading to continuous criss-crossing?

Mr. Barry

A lot of the traffic will change lanes. However, at the existing junction of the M50 and M11 in south County Dublin considerably higher volumes of traffic meet and cross. It is not uncommon at junctions of two motorways or freeways to have traffic crossing lanes.

Deputy Lowry

I welcome the representatives from the NRA and thank them for their concise report. I take the opportunity to compliment them on the number of projects brought to a conclusion this year. I have been critical of the NRA in the past in that I felt the programme it was asked to implement was too ambitious and difficult. However, these projects have been completed and we have a high quality return. Most of the projects have been completed on time — some ahead of schedule — and within budget, which represents a dramatic improvement.

I also thank Mr. Barry for his response on the N62 and the Thurles bypass, about which I have been in correspondence with him. I find it impossible to understand how any Government transport policy could come into the public domain without including the N62 which is a very important route and carries considerable traffic volumes. It is extremely dangerous in sections. In the section closest to where I live, from Horse and Jockey to Roscrea, road improvements are being made on a piecemeal, ad hoc, stop-start basis, which is totally unsatisfactory. I acknowledge that the work under way is funded by the NRA and that the end result will be very beneficial to road users in the Thurles area. Recently the ESRI conducted an evaluation of Transport 21, the Government initiative. Even the ESRI referred to the anomaly of not including the N62. Can Mr. Barry tell the committee whether the NRA will advise that it is absolutely imperative and crucial that the N62 be included in the next national development plan? The ESRI report stated there was an emphasis on the provision of new roads, whereas there should be an emphasis on improving roads such as the N52 from Nenagh through Borrisokane to Carrig and Riverstown near Birr. That road is in a desperate condition. It is difficult to travel on it at the best of times. There are many bad bends on it. The ESRI report clearly states that some of the moneys made available to the NRA should be spent on improving and realigning such roads. I certainly believe the N62 and the N52 should be prioritised by the NRA. I ask the members of its delegation to respond to me in that regard.

Mr. Barry

I will begin by taking up the point made by Deputy Lowry.

Deputy Enright

I would like to speak about the same issue.

Mr. Barry

I apologise.

Chairman

Do other members want to speak about the same matter?

Deputy Connaughton

No, I am concerned about a different issue. I am further west.

Deputy Healy

I am further south.

Deputy Enright

I join Deputy Lowry in speaking about the N52 and the N62, both of which pass through Birr, County Offaly, which is in my constituency. The ESRI report stated such roads should be given a high priority. It is clear that they are not seen by the NRA as being a high priority. The N52 from Birr to Tullamore is in good condition, although there is always room for improvement. I do not propose to criticise it as strongly as the N62 from Birr to Athlone which is in a disastrous condition. I appreciate that it is built on a bog which makes it difficult to upgrade. However, we have to surmount such problems and deal with the need for improvements. Under the national spatial strategy, Athlone, Tullamore and Mullingar are supposed to come together as a regional gateway. The two roads about which I am speaking service the entire region. If they are not redeveloped to a proper standard, I do not see how the national spatial strategy will work. I am aware that the next national development plan will be published in January. I am not sure of the extent to which it will place emphasis on the crucial roads I have mentioned.

The ESRI also mentioned the N80, about which I might as well speak now rather than having to return to it later. Portlaoise is supposed to be a designated inland transportation port but that will not happen if motorists continue to be unable to get in and out of the town. The proposal I have mentioned which is being backed by significant investment could be successful. I am aware that some work has taken place on the N80 which links Tullamore with Portlaoise. The development of the midlands region is being stifled by the lack of progress on the N62, N52 and N80 routes which link the N6, the N7 and the N8 routes with each other. They are the only roads on which one can travel between the major national routes, which will become motorways relatively soon, in the midlands area. I would like the delegation to expand on the NRA's plans for the roads in question.

I would like to conclude by asking the members of the delegation to outline how the NRA deals with local authorities. I am asking in the context of the development of the three routes I have mentioned. Laois County Council, Offaly County Council, Birr Town Council and Tullamore Town Council have been seeking meetings with the NRA since I was a member of Offaly County Council. However, such meetings have not taken place. Mr. Egan probably remembers when the NRA wanted the assistance of the local authorities with the upgrading of the N7. It was prepared to meet the local authorities at that time. I am sure its officials regularly meet county managers, etc. but councillors represent the views of the people most familiar with the geography of local areas. The NRA needs to improve its communication with local authorities. If members of local authorities want to raise specific issues, they should have the opportunity to do so. I should not have to use this forum to raise issues which may seem minor such as particular junctions, etc., as this is not the place to do so. The issues I have raised are not minor. Councillors do not believe they have an opportunity to address local issues with the NRA. This matter has to be addressed.

Chairman

Does Deputy Healy have something to say about roads in County Tipperary?

Deputy Healy

I would like to speak about the N24 which is further south.

Chairman

Perhaps Mr. Barry would like to respond to the points made.

Mr. Barry

Some of what I have to say will apply to most of the questions raised. The NRA recognises that the national secondary routes in many parts of the country are less than satisfactory. It does not suggest, just because it is spending most of its money on the primary routes, that the secondary routes are in good shape. Transport 21 focuses on the national primary routes. Most of the projects identified in it relate to national primary routes. While it states work needs to be done on the national secondary routes, it is less specific on what will be done. The NRA is subject to Government policy which is to complete the interurban network and the upgrade of the M50 by 2010. It is appropriate that we are working within the ambit of Government policy, with which I have no complaint. We have been directed to act in a certain manner. Given that we have been set certain objectives which we will achieve, there is a limit to the funds available to pursue other projects at the same time. If more money is made available, we will gladly take it and do more but there is a limit to what we can do. While the NRA might have certain views, I do not think it would be appropriate for it to comment on the views on Government policy expressed by the ESRI or any other public commentator. If the Government wants to change its policy, it will do so, but it does not need the NRA to join outside groups in making comments.

I was also asked about accountability and communications. The representatives of the NRA are willing to meet councillors from any road authority. They will not attend meetings of local chambers, or county councils, in open session. Such sessions do not tend to be very productive, by and large. We meet delegations from many road authorities, some of which send elected officials to meet us regularly; others do so less frequently. We are open to having such meetings. I am not sure what happened with Deputy Enright and other county councillors but it is open to her, like all elected representatives, to meet the NRA.

I cannot offer a great deal of hope in the near future in respect of some of the routes mentioned. We are doing the planning work in order that we can make progress when funding is available but there is only so much work we can do on the national secondary routes, given the constraints within which we are working such as the limited amount of money we have available to us and the priority objectives set for us. I can confirm that the relatively small amount of work being done on such routes does not result from a sense of disbelief about what the members of the committee have said, or a view that their concerns are unwarranted. That is not what we are saying.

Deputy Enright

Are bypasses subject to the same regulation under Transport 21?

Mr. Barry

Transport 21 does not articulate the specific work that will be done on the national secondary routes. We have to figure out the best use we can make of the money available, while recognising that there are thousands of miles of national secondary routes.

Deputy Connaughton

I welcome Mr. Barry and the rest of the NRA delegation. While the scene looks much better than it did two years ago, a great deal remains to be done. The further west one goes, the more one sees that has to be done.

I would like to raise two or three specific matters, one of which relates to what we are speaking about today. I totally agree with the message sent by the Road Safety Authority in recent weeks. I refer to the advertisement that makes the point that tired drivers are dangerous drivers. If I drive from Dublin to Galway, I can use the new roadway as far as Kinnegad. The NRA document states it will not be long until the new stretch of road is extended as far as Tyrrellspass. I hope it will be extended as far as Athlone not long afterwards. I am not aware that arrangements have been made for drivers to pull in on any stretch of the new road. When this issue was raised with Mr. Barry's predecessor three or four years ago, it was deemed, if I recall correctly, that the NRA did not believe it needed to allow for the possibility that drivers would get tired on a main highway. What provisions will be made for tired drivers on new roads being built from Dublin to Cork and Galway?

It appears from the document that the N6 to Galway city will be completed by 2010. Is that correct?

Mr. Barry

Yes.

Deputy Connaughton

If and when that happens, it will be a wonderful day for commuters in the area. As Mr. Barry is aware, Galway is the largest car park in Ireland. To alleviate traffic volumes in the city, the NRA has correctly decided to build the N17 and N18. When will they be completed?

As the delegation will be aware, there is gridlock at Claregalway every morning and evening. Will a bypass be built in Claregalway, given that the N17 and N18 may not be completed for 15 years? Once built, I assume these routes will reduce traffic volumes in Claregalway. A bypass around the town is the only short-term solution to the problem. Will the NRA provide financial support for such a project?

The NRA has been in correspondence with me and others concerning a most unusual decision regarding the junction at Gort. It is impossible to fathom the behaviour of the NRA and Galway County Council. The proposed new route from Galway to Ennis has only one access to Gort. Nobody in his or her right mind would regard this as sufficient. The NRA has shown in its documentation that the specifications it believes are warranted can be included in the design when the road is being built. However, Galway County Council has refused the authority's proposal because it does not believe the design is warranted at this stage. Surely it is not proposed to build a road costing millions of euro without incorporating the type of design sought by the NRA, even if the option to transform the road into a dual carriageway is not used for a couple of years. Failure to use this design will result in this option costing ten times as much in future. Should we not use this design now?

Mr. Barry

On the question of drivers and rest areas, I accept that it was NRA policy some years ago not to intervene or help out in this regard. Members may be aware that the organisation subsequently changed its views on this matter and is committed to providing three service areas as well rest areas on the route between Dublin and Galway.

Deputy Connaughton

Where will they be located?

Mr. Barry

The NRA website features a map showing the proposed locations of the service and rest areas on the Galway to Dublin route and other routes. We are working with the local authorities on acquiring sites and the PPP tender documentation is being prepared. Once this is complete, the procurement process will commence.

Deputy Connaughton

When did the NRA have a change of heart?

Mr. Barry

It changed its position about a year ago on foot of discussions with members of the committee and the Minister.

Deputy Connaughton

It is an important issue.

Mr. Barry

Yes. I am disappointed Deputies Shortall and Olivia Mitchell are not present to hear Galway described as the worst traffic jam in the country. There might be some competition for that title.

On the timing of works on the N17 and N18, the Ennis bypass will be open before Christmas, while proposals for sections of road between Ennis and an area east of Oranmore are either before An Bord Pleanála or about to be submitted to the board for compulsory purchase order and environmental impact statement approval. Proposals for works north of Oranmore as far as Tuam will go before An Bord Pleanála as soon as they are completed by the regional design office. My remarks should be construed in a positive way, as the NRA and the regional office are working together on this matter. I understand April 2007 is the target date for submission of the proposals.

To return to my earlier comments on sequencing, the NRA prioritises inter-urban routes. In the absence of additional funding, finance will not be available for the projects in question until the inter-urban routes are completed or well advanced.

Deputy Connaughton

In other words, the NRA will not consider the route until 2010.

Mr. Barry

We will consider it. We will carry out pre-qualification work with contractors and prepare tender documentation and so forth. I believe we will be able to start rolling out further work on the inter-urban routes before 2010, but it will depend on progress on other projects. On that basis, construction will start on some of the Galway routes around then and they will be completed much sooner than 15 years from now. All the routes concerned are provided for in Transport 21 and they will be built. The date indicated is an absolute end date but I expect the projects to be completed before then. The NRA is aware of congestion in Claregalway.

Deputy Connaughton

Will it fund a bypass?

Mr. Barry

The route from Oranmore to Tuam is the bypass for Claregalway. Traffic studies carried out by the NRA and Galway County Council show that this bypass will remove the majority of through traffic from the area. While Claregalway will still be busy owing to ongoing development in the area, about which Deputy Connaughton is better informed than I, the through traffic from outside the area will be taken care of by the bypass.

Deputy Connaughton

Seven or eight years of torture lie ahead for commuters who travel through Claregalway.

Mr. Barry

I understand the desire to get the project completed. I would have everything in Transport 21 completed tomorrow if I could, but that is not possible.

Deputy Connaughton

That is bad news for Claregalway.

Mr. Barry

Its route may be finished sooner than anticipated. The Government is examining alternatives — I am not revealing State secrets here — which would allow the work to commence early. In such circumstances, the NRA will be ready, which is the reason it is engaged in the planning process.

The NRA had a meeting with members of the Gort community and some of its public representatives, during which we agreed that in the event that the population of the town increases to 9,000, the second limited junction, as mentioned in the correspondence, would be warranted. We also informed those in attendance that there is no point in the NRA carrying out works on the road at Gort if local roads are unable to accommodate the traffic that would be attracted to the area by the junction.

We are not as cross-ways with Galway County Council as it may seem. The NRA cannot force the council to do the work it must complete; nor can the authority fund it. The timing of the work is a matter for the council to consider. The NRA will build the junction as soon as the council informs us it is ready to commence. The road has been designed and the design has been submitted to An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy Connaughton

Does it include the junction?

Mr. Barry

No. The decision to proceed with the junction was made either after the road work plan had been submitted to An Bord Pleanála or just prior to submission. It is a priority section which we wanted to submit for planning purposes and I am satisfied we did the right thing. When Galway County Council informs the NRA that it is in a position to do its end of the work, the NRA will be able to do the design side of it and get it through the planning process.

Deputy Connaughton

Does Mr. Barry not accept that the project will fall between two stools?

Mr. Barry

We were very open about what we could and would do in that regard when we met public representatives.

Deputy Connaughton

I know that.

Mr. Barry

I understand the people of Gort feel otherwise.

Deputy Connaughton

Absolutely.

Mr. Barry

We would not put a second junction into the town of Gort at its current size. We heard what local people said about what is happening there.

Deputy Connaughton

They have figures to prove that.

Mr. Barry

I hope the new census figures will confirm that but, without some evidence, I do not see Galway County Council going ahead and doing the local roads, so there is no point in our doing something nice on our road and then throwing a lot of traffic onto a road that is completely inadequate. That is outside our remit.

Deputy Connaughton

I totally reject that on behalf of the people of Gort. There will be an extensive campaign about this because right is on our side. Our proposal makes absolute sense. We thought everything was all right when we received the letter from the county council.

Mr. Barry

The people of Gort have got all they can get from us. We have committed ourselves to funding the junction when Galway County Council is ready for it. If the county council tells us next year that it is ready for it, we will fund it next year. That was the nub of what we committed ourselves to when we met the community representatives. We have not pulled back on that. We are not putting any time restriction on it. We are saying that when the county council says it is ready, we will be there.

Deputy Connaughton

I will not hold up the meeting any longer. This is putting an inordinate pressure on Galway County Council.

Mr. Barry

As the Deputy is aware, we have no authority to direct Galway County Council on what to do with its local roads. People say the NRA has too much authority but we do not have the authority to direct local authorities.

Deputy Connaughton

We will be back in five years' time saying what a mess we made.

Deputy Healy

It is only fair to acknowledge the work done. I come from south Tipperary where an amount of work has been done or is under way at Cashel, Mitchelstown, Cullohill and the east-west Cahir bypass. There is serious concern at all levels in the county, right up to the highest level in the county council and at a political level, on the lack of progress on the N24. It is a national primary route that is a significant road for the county. It is particularly important at either end of the county in terms of Tipperary town and its bypass and the west Tipperary area, and to the east of the county in the Carrick-on-Suir area and its bypass.

Given that matters have gone so well for the NRA and many jobs have come in ahead of schedule and on budget, is there any possibility that the two bypasses to which I referred could be prioritised and brought forward, as the current position is that no building can be done before 2010? That timescale is unacceptable. These two bypasses are crucial for the further development of the county and there is serious concern at the highest levels in the county from both an economic and social point of view. Can Mr. Barry offer any hope that these two issues will be dealt with, because it is a glaring omission in the NRA's programme?

Mr. Barry

The N24 upgrade is specifically included as part of the Transport 21 plan. We are doing the planning works with the local authority for the upgrade. Some work in this regard has been carried out this year and the work will continue next year. When it comes to releasing the project for construction the comments I have made in regard to other projects apply equally to the N24.

Deputy Healy

But this is a national primary route.

Mr. Barry

As are the N17 and N18, with respect. That is not to lessen the case for the N24. In Transport 21 we will be doing as much construction in the last year as we are doing in the first year. It is a ten-year programme with a ten-year funding envelope. Much as we would like to do all the work in the earlier years, it will be spread evenly over that time. We cannot change that.

Deputy Healy

Is there no possibility that the project can be brought forward? I accept that the N17 and N18 are important but this work is crucial. The N24 is probably the worst national primary route in the country and little or no work has been done on it to date.

Mr. Barry

I am afraid the answer to that question is the same as I have given to everybody else. If more money is available then we can advance some of this work and do it sooner.

Deputy Healy

I thought I understood Mr. Barry to say there might be possibilities towards the end of the current programme. Is there any possibility that these projects can be expedited at that time?

Mr. Barry

In the happy event that money is available earlier than has been scheduled, the decision as to what happens will be made close to the time. It would not be made years in advance, even if circumstances were to change in the interim.

Deputy Healy

If a window arises towards the end of this programme, would the N24 and these two projects in particular be on the NRA's priority list for that work?

Mr. Barry

They would be in consideration but it would not be right for me to say at this meeting whether we will do the Tuam bypass or the Carrick-on-Suir bypass first when all of the projects are still some years away. That decision should be made in light of the most current information.

Deputy Healy

What is the earliest date at which we will see construction on the Tipperary town bypass?

Mr. Barry

As of now, it will be constructed and completed within the timeframe of Transport 21. I will not give the Deputy a starting date for the work because I am not in a position to do so.

Deputy Healy

What is the end of the timeframe for Transport 21?

Mr. Barry

The latest date for completion is 2015.

Deputy Healy

Is nothing earlier than that possible?

Mr. Barry

I am sorry but I have already repeated myself.

Deputy Healy

I am disappointed with that. There is serious concern about that route in particular in south Tipperary at all levels. I urge the NRA to re-examine the situation with a view to bringing it forward at the very least to the next tranche of work and, if at all possible, to bring it into the later phases of the current work programme.

Senator P. Burke

I welcome Mr. Barry and his colleagues. Has a review been carried out of the schemes that have been completed recently and, if so, has there been a change in the priorities of the scheduled work programme?

My second question relates to the N5 which has three sections. The first section is from Castlebar to Westport. The second section is from Ballina to Bohola. The third section is the Charlestown bypass which is currently under construction. It is 100 miles from Castlebar to Mullingar and there is a two-lane carriageway the whole way. Owing to the volume of traffic, the only place one can overtake in safety is when one reaches Mullingar.

The N5 Charlestown bypass is a 17 km route. Several requests have been made to the NRA from Mayo County Council to upgrade this to a two-plus-one road. I am disappointed the NRA cannot adapt quickly. This road is under construction. The calls to upgrade the road date back 12 months. I understand that a number of schemes have been upgraded to a two-plus-one route. Surely this road could easily be upgraded to a two-plus-one road at the construction stage, even though it might delay the opening of the road for six months or longer and increase the cost? It would not increase the cost significantly. The NRA has stated the road can be upgraded in ten years. Why can it not be done now? Why can we not plan for the future?

We are not doing so or adapting quickly enough to meet the needs that arise. The stretch of road is 100 miles long and much of it has been constructed recently but one cannot pass safely until one reaches Mullingar, 100 miles away. This is crazy. I am disappointed with the NRA because, for the sake of €100,000 or €200,000 per kilometre, the route could be upgraded to a two-plus-one carriageway. In ten years' time it will cost millions of euro to upgrade it. What is Mr. Barry's view on this and response to my first question? The position I have outlined has connotations for the N26. I am led to believe by the local authority that the second stage of the N26 scheme, from Carrentrila to Bohola, should be proceeding.

Mr. Barry

On the prioritisation of roads in the area mentioned, work on the Charlestown bypass is under way and other upgrades are planned, including on the N26 around Bohola and the Castlebar-Westport section. We are guided by the views of Mayo County Council on the order in which these projects are to be carried out. To date, it has been suggested the N26 should be developed first. If the council were to change its priorities, we would certainly consider this.

Senator P. Burke

Has the N26 been reprioritised because of views at national level?

Mr. Barry

The N26 is in the same category as the N17, N18, N24 and the other roads of which we spoke. The direction from the Government is to construct the interurban routes and the other works I mentioned by 2010; to progress work on the other roads as best as possible within that time; and to continue with implementation of the recommendations made in Transport 21.

We look 25 or 30 years ahead when considering the road types to be constructed in different areas. We do not just consider today's traffic volumes. While long-term projections are not very accurate and future traffic levels may be higher or lower, we do what we can. Our crystal ball is as good as anybody else's.

We have revisited the issue of whether the single carriageway we seek to construct on the N25 and which we are constructing at Castletown is adequate. It will be adequate for far more than ten years, unless there is a complete change in the volume of traffic. It will certainly be adequate to the end of its full design life.

To change the specifications of a project under construction is never inexpensive. One may recall that the NRA got into difficulty some years ago because projects were costing more than had been budgeted. Changes were being made to specifications on the fly while projects were under construction, which is rarely cost-effective.

The cost of two-plus-one roads is higher than that of single carriageways. We are considering how a number of pilot schemes in this regard are working. One scheme is open, while another one or two are under construction. We are hopeful they will succeed but that is not entirely certain. They certainly offer safety dividends, as has been established, but I do not know if they are much better than other roads at moving traffic forward.

I do not quite agree that there are no opportunities to pass between Castlebar and Mullingar. Saying so may be an overstatement. I have driven on the road many times and noted that it is not safe to pass on long sections which must be upgraded. However, there are sections on which one can pass.

Senator P. Burke

That is like saying there would be no need for dual carriageways or motorways if every car could travel at 60 mph. Mr. Barry is suggesting we are to have a two-lane carriageway on the N5 from Westport to Mullingar for the next 20 years.

Mr. Barry

That roadway will be perfectly adequate, given the volume of traffic thereon.

Senator P. Burke

I beg to differ.

Deputy Enright

Work has started on the Tullamore bypass. Will Mr. Barry update me on this project?

I read the press release on on-line service stations. Has the off-line concept gone out the window? Will it no longer be possible to have motorway service stations that also serve communities? I believe there is one in Cashel. Discussions are taking place elsewhere on whether it will be possible. Does the NRA have a policy on the matter?

Mr. Barry

We are spending money on the Tullamore bypass. It has gone through the CPO-EIS process and been approved. There is a time limit on our giving notice to landowners and our doing so will trigger certain events. That is the current position.

On the question of off-line service areas, we are neither encouraging nor discouraging them. We expect there will be off-line service areas and the associated planning issues are ones for the local authorities to deal with. We are not intervening, except to the extent that we want to be sure traffic moving onto and off national roads is catered for satisfactorily. We expect that certain places will have off-line service areas and are not saying there should be none. From the NRA's point of view, traffic capacity and safety on national roads are priorities.

Deputy Enright

Does the NRA judge each case on its merits?

Mr. Barry

The planning aspects are matters for the local authorities to deal with.

Acting Chairman

I thank Mr. Barry and his team for attending and answering the questions posed. I congratulate the NRA on its wonderful work and wish it well. I thank the members who participated.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.05 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 November 2006.