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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 25 Mar 2009

Transport Issues: Discussion.

I welcome the delegation. We are especially pleased to have the delegation before the committee on its first visit to Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann. I will call Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA, chairperson of the Northern Ireland Regional Development Committee, presently to speak. The Joint Committee on Transport is very keen to have as much co-operation with the committee from Northern Ireland as possible. There is much to be gained in co-ordinating transport policy as much as possible in the two parts of the island.

We welcome the fact that the delegation has taken the opportunity to see some of our success stories in Dublin, especially in regard to the quality bus corridors. We congratulate the delegation on the initiatives with regard to the busways. We are somewhat sore about the fact that the delegation stole one of our top people, namely, Mr. Ciarán de Burca from the national bus corridor office, but I assure the delegation it is very lucky to have him. He is an excellent person in respect of the job he does. We wish the delegation well in the development of the Belfast busways. I invite Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA, to introduce the members of the delegation.

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

I am accompanied by Mr. Brian Wilson of the Green Party, Mr. Willie Clarke of Sinn Féin and Mr. John Dallat of the SDLP. I am the chairman of the Northern Ireland Regional Transport Committee and am from the Ulster Unionist Party. I thank the chairman for the invitation to attend today. I realise the presentation has been distributed. Members of the committee will be glad to hear that I have no intention of going through it sheet by sheet. However, I wish to raise and identify some issues.

I wish to focus on the committee's ongoing work and its priorities. Members will be pleased to hear about any work the Joint Committee on Transport is doing in these areas and any experiences and lessons it has to share on these topics. Rapid transit for Belfast is a topic the committee has considered in some detail. We have considered the Department's strategic outline case and we are moving towards an outline business case and the detailed design stage. Several route options have been identified in Belfast, including east way, west way and Titanic quarter, with potential links to Queen's University Belfast and the hospitals in the vicinity.

At this stage the recommendation is for a bus-based rapid transit system. The committee has seen some examples of bus-based systems in Amsterdam, Utrecht and Eindhoven last year. We understand the Chairman has a keen interest in the subject and that rapid transit pilots are being considered for a number of cities in Ireland. My committee may be interested to hear the chairman's views on those issues. We have started work on a new inquiry into sustainable transport which will examine balancing the environment and the social and economic sustainability of transport. Given the importance of transport related emissions to the overall level of carbon emissions, the committee is very keen to progress this vital issue.

The committee held a stakeholder engagement event in February 2009 and the engagement report will inform the committee's terms of reference. The main areas of interest are achieving a sustainable economy, living within environmental limits, ensuring a strong, healthy and just society, and the usefulness and achievability of existing commitments and targets. We anticipate issuing a public call for evidence before the summer recess with a view to taking evidence at the beginning of the new session in September 2009.

Public transport reform is also of interest to the committee. The proposals for reform, which include bus and rail public transport services, involve moving to a three-tier system. The top tier would comprise the Government, responsible for broad policy, including legislation and regulations. The middle tier would be responsible for designing and managing services and securing their provision. The third tier would comprise transport operators. The key elements driving the need for reform include a clearer delineation of roles and responsibilities split between designers and operators, the need for a lead client to specify and manage contracts, EU regulation, pressures to deliver improved efficiency and ensure value for money, and the desirability of moving to a model of revenue funding for services instead of capital funding to enhance accountability and transparency, which the committee believes is very important.

Proposals are currently at the outline business case stage and we anticipate moving to detailed business case stage before the summer recess. The committee has also been working with the Department on the development of the ten-year review of the regional development strategy since last year. We are keen to see a revised regional development review that benefits all parts of the region, helps reduce our carbon footprint, maximises the potential of our cities, towns, villages and rural communities, strengthens Belfast as the economic driver of the region and reinforces Derry as the gateway city of the north west and improves connections within the region, Northern Ireland's neighbours and the rest of the world.

The review of the regional development strategy is feeding into the review of the regional transportation strategy, which is at a very early stage, and the committee is looking forward to working on this issue. It is also aware that work is ongoing, through the British-Irish Council, on draft collaborative spatial planning frameworks examining common needs and better targeting of infrastructure investment. In addition, it is working with the Department on the development of legislation in the areas of ports policy and roads. The committee also engages in quarterly scrutiny of departmental performance against its budget and programme for Government targets.

One of the key issues for it is the issue of the reform of water and sewerage services. At present we are in the middle of an inquiry into the management of risk in the water company and are considering draft ministerial guidance on social and environmental issues as part of the regulatory price control for 2010-2012. As this is outside the remit of the committee, I will not expand any further on this topic. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to meet with the committee and I look forward to working together for the betterment of all of the people who live on the island.

I thank Mr. Cobain. Why did the delegation decide to go for a bus rapid transport in Belfast, as opposed to light rail?

I welcome our colleagues from the North. It is very important the delegation came here and it is very welcome.

I live in County Louth and the contact between it and Newry and County Down is very strong. I welcome the comments on the spatial strategy and planning for the common needs, through the British-Irish Council. It is very important because what happens north of the Border and in the South on that economic corridor is terribly important.

I have one serious complaint to make and I know the delegation will have the same one for me. It concerns speeding and penalty points. It is a transport and road safety issue for us. The problem is the penalty points system in the North is different from the one in the South, as the one in the South is different to that in the North. Northern drivers are coming to the South, many of whom are driving at very high speeds, as are Southern drivers going North. It is a really serious issue.

I know the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, and the other Ministers are dealing with this issue but it has not been sorted out yet. Can we find common ground? We may not be able to do that today but if we can, we should ensure there is safer driving north and south of the Border. We could achieve that through common enforcement and penalty points and follow the issue through. It applies equally to those of us going north of the Border. Does the delegation have any views on that?

Mr. John Dallat, MLA

While the Republic has its own Road Safety Authority which, I understand, has more than 300 employees, road safety is dispersed across at least five Government Departments in the North. The primary responsibility is with the Department of the Environment. The Minister is Mr. Sammy Wilson. The Department for Regional Development has responsibility for road signage, design of motorways and things like that. The Department of Education is also heavily involved.

It is dispersed and there are probably different views on how to bring the issue forward. Speaking personally, I would like to see an authority in the North similar to the RSA so that those issues could be seriously addressed. I understand there are discussions going on as we speak. All of us want to see an end to the people who jump the Border one way or the other and cause deaths on the road. It is our primary aim, given that more people have been killed on the roads than through the Troubles over the years.

I welcome the delegation. To come back to the issue of traffic in Belfast, the last number of times I drove through it there was no shortage of cars. At the time of the evening I was there, no more than Dublin, one could do with rationalising it to some degree.

When the delegation talk about bus rapid transport, is it intended to trap commuters who come into Belfast every morning to work? Will a park and ride facility be set up, whereby commuters are taken off the main arterial roads into the city, with the main bus lanes being used to bring them to work? Is that the idea?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

There are a number of different issues. The committee has experienced some of these in Dublin. The main issue is whether we can get the political drive to do it because it will be a very controversial issue. The first thing we must do is take a large volume of cars out of the city centre.

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

We can do that through a park and ride system. We can also do it through the planning service. Parking in Belfast is quite cheap and people are encourage to come in. We need to work along with that. We need to provide buses.

I assume for business reasons people are encouraged to come and park in the centre of the city.

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

All of these things are a balance. There is no sense in us spending large amounts of money on rapid transit if it is not rapid transit. We need clear political direction on this because it will be very controversial in the city centre. We need park and ride facilities, we need to discourage people from coming into the city centre and we need to ensure we have clear lanes for rapid transit. That will mean restricting the amount of lanes available for cars in the city centre.

We assume early on this will cause a lot of friction between car drivers and the committee of the Assembly. However, we need to drive rapid transit forward and we need to introduce it as quickly as possible. As a committee, we are determined to do that. I know the Minister is determined to introduce it.

I take it that the reason the delegation favours the bus system is that it is possibly the cheapest system.

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Yes, it is. The financial implications for rail are too expensive for us in the city. The buses are within the remit of the Department and we are happy to do that.

I welcome the delegation and the opportunity to exchange views. In the delegation's suggestions for rapid bus transport, it states the desirability of moving to a model of revenue funding for services instead of capital funding. In other words, the revenue derived from bus fares will replace fleets and upgrades. Is that what the statement means? Why did the delegation come to that conclusion?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Over the past 30 years there has been very little money spent on public transport in Northern Ireland. Over the last number of years we have invested quite heavily in public transport and the number of people using the public transport system has risen quite substantially. We know we must go further and that many people would want to use public transport, provided it is clean, efficient and on time. We think rapid transit is one way of providing that, along with the significant investment we are making in railways.

There is another way to encourage people on to public transport. There is a substantial financial pool we can use to subsidise the transport systems in Northern Ireland.

Is Mr. Cobain saying that funding for new buses should come from an increase in fares rather than from the government, which is the traditional source?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Eventually. In the first instance it requires substantial Government investment, which we are making, to ensure that we have something to compete with motor cars. Our priority is to take cars off the road and we cannot do that until we have an alternative, which is public transport. The public transport we have now is not an alternative to driving a car.

Is public transport a major political issue in Belfast? Is the need for a better service on everybody's mind every day?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Public transport is an issue for everyone in Northern Ireland because we have not invested sufficiently in it for 30 years. We have paid substantial sums for new trains but because the track is not sufficient they run at ten miles an hour. That is the sort of silly thing we need to overcome. We can only do that by further investment which will encourage more people to use public transport.

Will future revenue be derived from fares?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Yes.

I welcome the delegation. Three years ago I had the privilege of being in Stormont on the last day before the assembly elections at a meeting chaired by Sammy Wilson. It was a good and enjoyable meeting. As a follow-up a year ago we had a public relations exercise in Drogheda or Dundalk on co-operation in the Border counties where most of the road deaths take place. We have made no progress on the fact that penalty points received by Northern drivers in the Republic and vice versa are not implemented. Both ends of the island have come a long way from having some of the worst road safety records in Europe to the point that the Republic is in fourth place. We must be serious about implementing penalty points because while drink driving has come under control, speeding has not. The map we saw at the last meeting showed that most deaths occur in the Border area. If we do not take this seriously with funding as it is now we will go back from fourth to 24th.

I welcome the delegation. I wish to raise a parochial point with which the representative from east Derry, and maybe others, will be familiar. Derry city is the fourth largest city on the island and Conor Murphy is on record, with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, as stating that if a feasibility study is done and if there is proof that it satisfies the cost benefit analysis he will lend his support to a light rail system from Derry city, servicing the suburbs which extend into east Inishowen as far as Manorcunningham and Letterkenny. Will Mr. Cobain and his committee lend their weight to this possibility? We have already targeted moneys to carry out the feasibility study, without putting pressure on any organisation that intends to provide it.

Mr. John Dallat, MLA

I was sure that Deputy McHugh was going to mention the Foyle ferry service.

I am under considerable constraint from the Chairman but I know Mr. Dallat is following that closely.

Does the delegation have further questions for members of the committee on any other issue?

I thought by the way the Chairman was heading that he was going to connect the western rail corridor with it.

That is a long-term plan.

Mr. Willie Clarke, MLA

We do not have the numbers using public transport to justify the cost associated with light rail. We will put down the infrastructure as a sound base and hopefully some years down the track — excuse the pun — we will introduce light rail when we have the numbers to justify it.

Integrating main bus links with rural populations is a major problem in the North, particularly to break down social exclusion and to combat rural poverty. We are examining what we can do and I am sure the members of this committee have been through the same process, particularly in respect of concessionary fares for older citizens and citizens with disabilities. How do we link them to the main bus routes and what work have members of the committee done on that problem?

We have done a fair bit. I come from County Galway where the rural transport initiative was introduced in half of the county and is being extended to almost all of the county. Mr. Clarke has put his finger on the problem. It is difficult to get an integrated approach. The initiative operates on the basis that the person who needs the service telephones a provider because there could not be a bus passing up and down townlands unless there was someone to use it. That part apparently works alright. The people who run it say that they do not want to go all the way to the local town to enable someone draw a pension or attend a social outing, but they try to link with the main bus routes going to the towns and cities. They want the small bus to be ready, waiting for the person to get off the mainline bus and bring him or her home. That might seem simple but it is difficult to operate and slow to set up but it is beginning to work.

I have the same experience of rural transport. It works well for social inclusion of older people, bringing them to the nearest town to collect their pensions, do their shopping or attend social outings such as going to the cinema where other people provide free coffee and so on, but it is difficult to link up with the existing bus services on a main road. I have worked on local rural transport to organise bringing people to railway and bus stations and it does not work. It is difficult to get the cohesion among the customers to bring them to the same place at the same time, assuming that they all want to go on the same train. It is very expensive and has broken down and failed at many railway stations.

Would members of the delegation like to raise any other issues or respond to what they saw this morning?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Last week the deputy chairman and I met the Minister for Transport specifically to discuss rural transport. We hope to work with the local councils which we think hold the key to some of these problems in rural areas. It would be easier if they were to take the lead using finance provided by central Government, topped up by the councils, because they have a better idea of how the system should work. We are keen to do that.

The rapid transit system we experienced in the bus lanes this morning was tremendous. We went around Dublin for almost three hours without stopping, which was a real experience. Many talk about congestion in Dublin and we were expecting real difficulties. However, we were encouraged by what we saw on our trip this morning.

What time of day was it?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

It was 7.30 a.m.

Did the delegation go to Malahide?

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

Yes. We arrived at 7.30 a.m. and travelled about until 10 a.m. We were in bus lanes almost the whole way.

The bus lanes are being observed more than they were two or three years ago. To be fair to the Garda, they have cleaned them up. No one breaks the rules the way he or she did three or four years ago.

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

That was noticeable this morning. There is no sense in our spending large amounts on rapid transit if there are cars, taxis and bus lanes.

The bus lanes are the most important factor.

Mr. Fred Cobain, MLA

They are very good. People are fortunate to have the system in place here. All of the committee was impressed and the hospitality shown to us has been tremendous. People gave of their time very generously this morning.

On the issue of hospitality, we will continue our discussion over dinner. I welcome Mr. Jim Wells, deputy chairman; Mr. Alastair Ross, Mr. John McCallister, Ms Róisín Kelly, the clerk to the committee, whom I thank for her efforts in organising the event, and Mr. Conor Coughlan, the assistant clerk . Everyone is very welcome; we appreciate their coming and will now go for dinner to the restaurant where we can continue our discussion.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.15 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 April 2009.
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