JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jul 2009

Proposed Slane Bypass: Discussion.

Chairman

I draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

From the National Roads Authority I welcome Mr. Fred Barry, chief executive, and Mr. Michael Egan, head of corporate affairs and professional services. I also welcome Mr. Tom Dowling, the county manager for County Meath, and Mr. Eugene Cummins from Meath County Council. I also welcome Mr. John Ryle and Mr. Conor Brady from the Slane Action Group and the other people from Slane who are present are also welcome.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I apologise because I will have to leave for ten or 12 minutes after 5 p.m.

Chairman

At the end of the meeting Deputy Broughan wants to raise an issue with regard to the tunnel and I want to raise the Tuam issue which we did not put on the agenda today.

We have received Mr. Ryle's presentation and as it is rather significant I ask him to summarise what it contains.

Mr. John Ryle

This is a summary of what we presented on the previous occasion we came before the committee. At that meeting we had 15 minutes and we have only five today. I will try to read it as quickly as I can; it would be rather hard to summarise something that was prepared specially.

Chairman

The only reason I said that is that we have already read it.

Mr. John Ryle

Have the other members of the committee read it?

Chairman

Yes, everyone received a copy.

Mr. Fred Barry

I read in full the presentation made at the Oireachtas Joint Committee during the previous session.

Chairman

Mr. Ryle can read it out if he wishes but it might be more effective——

Mr. John Ryle

It contains extra points relating to the report from the county council.

Chairman

It might be more effective to give us the main points but if Mr. Ryle would prefer to read it that is fine.

Mr. John Ryle

I would prefer to read it.

I thank the Chairman for extending this invitation to address again the joint committee and we welcome the participation of the NRA and Meath County Council. At our previous meeting we described the intolerable road safety situation in Slane where the community lives in a constant state of fear. Several unique features converge to make the N2 through the village one of the most dangerous sections of road in the country. We have a medieval bridge and an 18th century road carrying 21st century articulated traffic. Each day 1,600 trucks pass through this residential village and directly in front of a large national school. Most incidents occur on the 1 km long steep downhill section of road which includes two particularly sharp bends. Nearly all involve out-of-control trucks which, because of the road layout, cannot veer off the hill and stop safely. Countless collisions have resulted, many involving fatalities and serious injuries, and it seems certain that more people will be killed if appropriate action is not taken without delay.

The need for immediate effective action was once again highlighted in the starkest possible terms by a near-catastrophic collision in Slane on 23 March which was detailed in our last presentation. Within two weeks, Meath county councillors unanimously passed a motion calling for a HGV ban through the village of Slane. The Minister for Transport and the NRA referred the matter of the ban to Meath County Council and only now, almost four months later, has a report appeared. Rather than detailing how and when a HGV ban will be finally put in place, it summarises all of the reasons a ban cannot be implemented.

The main recommendations of the report are to write to the NRA to carry out a study to assess the full impact of a HGV ban; to write to the NRA to tell them how vulnerable N2 road users are and seek approval for the implementation of a 30 km/h speed limit; and to write to the NRA to seek funding to implement further traffic calming measures. Significantly, the final point in this report is an expression of the council's belief that the ultimate solution to the problem in Slane is the construction of the bypass.

The residents of Slane are extremely disappointed with the negative tone of the report. We are very surprised that it was so selective in the parties consulted and that there is no reference to the safety, well-being and quality of life of the residents. We strongly question the value of requesting that the NRA carry out another similar report.

Without 24-hour speed cameras, will a 30 km/h speed limit offer any real improvement? Also, how will such a speed limit stop out-of-control HGVs on the hill through the village to the bridge? In the absence of the bypass and a HGV ban, traffic calming measures would appear to be the most likely to improve road safety in Slane in the interim. However, measures put in place following the last fatality in 2001 have only been of limited success as incidents continue to occur regularly.

We question the level of monitoring and maintenance of these measures. For example, the high friction surfacing appears to have almost completely worn away in certain places and most of the dividing strips separating the lanes on Mill Hill have disappeared. Cameras installed to monitor traffic activity, including accidents, apparently do not work. Traffic calming measures did nothing to prevent the incident involving the out-of-control truck on 23 March and have, it may be argued, actually contributed to certain incidents. Even since then at least two further incidents involving HGVs have taken place.

We would welcome the speedy reinforcement of existing traffic calming measures and we suggest that the following be considered. The carriageways should be visibly narrowed and include constrictions, especially on the northern approaches to the village, to force drivers to reduce their speed. Furthermore, pedestrian-controlled crossings need to be provided, especially at the school and the new playground. We also strongly urge the immediate installation of speed cameras and electronic flashing signage giving vehicle speeds and warning of the steep gradients.

We have a several questions that we want to put to the parties here today. What will break this cycle of apparent inaction, when will construction of the bypass start and what will be done to protect us in the meantime? Is there an honest belief that the current measures are adequate to ensure acceptable standards of road safety in Slane? What will happen on the N2 through Slane when the double-tolled M3 opens?

Despite all relevant parties agreeing that Slane's road safety problems are very serious, all we have seen is much deliberation and little effective action. Either they do not know how serious the issue is or they really do not care, in which case they are in gross neglect of their responsibilities. Do they not understand the extreme urgency of this issue? In either case, we are looking at a reprehensible failure to act. I will finish by putting the following question to Meath County Council and the NRA. When the next multi-vehicle collision happens in Slane, as inevitably it will, this time perhaps causing several deaths, given the many warnings already received, will the council and the NRA feel they have adequately discharged a duty of care to the people of Slane?

Mr. Tom Dowling

On behalf of Meath County Council I am pleased, along with my colleague, to be given the opportunity to meet the committee to discuss the issue of a Slane bypass and the banning of heavy goods vehicles in the village.

Slane is designated as a heritage village and overlooks the River Boyne. There is a wealth of archaeological and cultural heritage in and around Slane, and the 250th anniversary of Slane as a Georgian village will be celebrated in 2010. Meath is the heritage capital of Ireland and Slane is a vital part of that heritage.

The most recent incident in Slane on 23 March 2009 has again highlighted the traffic safety problems that persist in the village. The risk of further serious road traffic accidents occurring in Slane will only be reduced when the bypass is in place. We share the concern of everybody who wants action on this. Meath County Council has an excellent working relationship with the National Roads Authority and together we have delivered strategic sections of national infrastructure, including the Ashbourne bypass, sections of the M1, M4 and the M3, which will be completed next year.

For a considerable time we have been working with the authority in planning for a bypass of Slane. It is true that proposals for the Slane bypass have been through several iterations which have led to significant amendments being made to the scheme which have affected the overall programme. I accept, share and understand the frustration of the local people but the reviews carried out were necessitated by changes in policy that took place in the intervening years. It was incumbent on both the NRA and Meath County Council to ensure that the proposed scheme was consistent with evolving national policy. We have much experience in Meath County Council of making sure these schemes function correctly. If the reviews had not been undertaken, there would have been considerable risk that the basis for the scheme could have been undermined during the statutory process. Meath County Council and the NRA have completed the preliminary design of the bypass and a draft EIS and CPO have also been prepared.

A resolution to implement a ban on HGVs travelling north-south through Slane on the N2 was passed by the elected members at the council meeting on 6 April 2009. A report was circulated to the full council on 6 July 2009 on the potential implications that such a ban would have and I fully support the elected representatives in their desire to ban HGVs through Slane. However, it would be remiss of me not to draw attention to the fact that whereas the banning of HGVs from Slane will resolve some of the problems associated with the inadequacy of the existing route, it may well create a multiplicity of other problems. These will have wide ranging impacts which will extend beyond the borders of County Meath, largely because of the need to give HGV drivers, who would otherwise pass through Slane, sufficient warning so that they can plan alternative routes.

The banning of HGVs in Slane may have wider implications which could have serious consequences for Meath County Council in terms of possible legal exposure, delivery delays and business frustration. These should not be dismissed lightly and could also apply to other affected local authorities and agencies.

Apart from the impact on the local commercial interests, any restriction of HGVs through Slane could bring significant local difficulties for the residents along other roads, villages and towns that diverted vehicles would use to avoid Slane and minimise journey times. In addition, the use of these local roads by HGVs could result in the rapid and serious deterioration of the local road infrastructure and increase the risk of accidents. Consequently, it is vital to consider this matter carefully and to ensure that whatever we do will be done in the proper manner.

Meath County Council looks forward to working closely with the NRA on the provision of short-term interventions such as road markings, signage and the possibility of a reduced speed limit. However, we continue to believe the only ultimate solution for Slane is a badly-needed bypass and we will work in partnership with the NRA to achieve this objective. I thank the Chairman and members.

Mr. Fred Barry

The National Roads Authority believes that Slane should be bypassed on economic, environmental and safety grounds. The existing N2 through the village and the crossing of the Boyne to the south of Slane involve inherent safety risks due in particular to the steep incline vehicles must negotiate on both approaches to the river. Additional risks arise within Slane village that are typical of traffic movements in an urban environment, such as negotiating the N2-N51 junction, turning movements associated with entering and leaving businesses and private property, as well as conflicts between pedestrians and vehicles.

The risk associated with the steepness of the incline to the River Boyne has been significantly reduced since the authority and Meath County Council put in place traffic management measures in 2002. Central to these measures was the segregation of heavy goods vehicles and other vehicles on the descent from the village to the river. The incidence of injuries is significantly lower than the pre-2002 situation. While this is to be welcomed, it must be recognised, as does the authority, that the potential for serious accidents remains and that the construction of a bypass would reduce risk factors further by diverting substantial volumes of traffic from the village.

The NRA is working closely with Meath County Council to advance the proposed bypass. The planning of the Slane bypass has proved challenging in respect of engineering, environmental and cultural heritage considerations. The crossing of the River Boyne unavoidably will affect a special area of conservation, while the relationship between the scheme and the UNESCO-designated Brú na Bóinne heritage site also has required careful attention. Our colleagues in Meath County Council have worked closely with the authority on taking account of and sensitively addressing these issues to maximise the prospects of obtaining approval when An Bord Pleanála considers the bypass proposal.

The planning is well advanced and the compulsory purchase order, CPO, and environmental impact statement, EIS, documentation will be available to submit to An Bord Pleanála by October this year. Subject to Department of Finance approval, CPO and EIS applications will be submitted to An Bord Pleanála as soon as the documentation is ready.

Chairman

I now will allow some questions.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

My colleague, Deputy McEntee, will speak in my place initially.

Chairman

That is fine. The first questioner will be Deputy McEntee, who raised this issue.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

He also is the local Deputy.

Chairman

In the light of Mr. Barry's comments regarding the environmental, heritage and other issues, I wish Deputy McEntee better luck with the Slane bypass than I am having with the Galway bypass.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I welcome the Meath county manager, as well as Mr. Eugene Cummins, Mr. Fred Barry, Mr. Michael Egan and the people from Slane. While one could beat around the bush all evening in this regard, no one should think this is a mere exercise on the part of any member of this committee. A total of 22 people have been killed in County Meath because of this issue. I refer to the county council's commitment to Slane four or five years ago when I was first elected. Although Slane is the jewel in the crown of County Meath and Ireland, it has been turned into a complete disgrace. Its businesses have closed down and it is becoming far harder to get through the town on a daily basis. I travel though it every time I come to Dublin and it is nightmarish. Only yesterday, on my way to Ratoath, I witnessed what could have been another serious accident.

Everyone is aware of the economic downturn and that the Slane bypass will not be built for a year or two. Although several documents and proposals have been put forward as to whether the bypass is to be a dual carriageway and so on, we really are no further on in this regard. Who is responsible for that road, the NRA or Meath County Council? Can HGVs be banned? I seek a straight "Yes" or "No" answer, after which one can act accordingly. Although the NRA has received money down the years to provide safe roads, people have lost their lives on this road. The M1 has become a joke as the NRA will not allow the establishment of any businesses off it. The witnesses are aware that 500 or 600 jobs have been lost in County Meath as a result. When one asks the Minister for Transport a question, he will reply that it is the responsibility of the NRA.

If the NRA is responsible for the road in question, it also is responsible for ensuring the safety of the citizens in Slane. On foot of the recent accident, it is clear one cannot wait two years for a bypass because what happened a couple of months ago could have led to the deaths of 12 to 14 people. Some of those involved and their children are present in the Gallery. As I have stated previously, a man beside whom I sat in school for three years was killed on that bridge. It was not due to traffic calming measures, speed limits or anything else but was due to the build-up into the village itself. A lorry descended, collided with the car and the two people within it were burned alive. This will happen again within two years. As an elected representative, I hold the witnesses responsible. Although they have the responsibility to provide a safe road for the residents of Slane, they have not done so. I ask the witnesses to give me a straight answer as to whether it is possible to ban HGVs. If it is possible, it should be done now. I repeat my question, namely, who is responsible for that road?

Mr. Fred Barry

Under the Roads Acts, which were passed by Members, responsibility is shared among different authorities. The construction, organisation and arrangements pertaining to the bypass construction is an NRA responsibility although we obviously work closely with Meath County Council in so doing. Issues in respect of banning HGV vehicles in the village is a local authority matter under the same legislation.

Deputy Shane McEntee

To revert to my question, whose responsibility is it to ban the HGVs?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

A resolution has been passed by the county council. As the elected Members have called for it, notwithstanding everything the county manager said, I presume the position is he must effect that policy now.

Mr. Tom Dowling

Obviously it is a reserved function to pass the resolution and so on, which has been done. While the resolution has been passed, members are aware that one must find a way to implement such a resolution. Everyone in this room shares the desire to make Slane a safe place. We wish to do so as we consider Slane to be a fantastic place that never will achieve its potential without a bypass. The only real way to solve the problem is with a bypass. Although a heavy goods vehicle ban can be implemented, we must address every issue in respect of so doing. For example, when we created a bypass in Enfield, we could avail of two different roads on which to send traffic. However, one problem in respect of Slane is that we do not know where to send the traffic. We are deeply concerned that we will be obliged to attend other meetings before this joint committee at which other groups from different places will claim that our proposed HGV ban will cause problems for them. This is a real issue. While we can do it and the law allows us to it, we must find a way of so doing. It is like trying to——

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

However, the law states the local authority must do it. It does not have a choice because the council has passed a resolution and its officials must carry that through.

Mr. Tom Dowling

That is absolutely true, provided we can provide safe access for everyone else. Unfortunately, as everyone is aware, this is not a simple black and white issue and we would love to do it. I live beside the road and would love to be able to drive through there in safety.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Everyone knows that traffic is coming off the M1 to avoid paying the tolls. The reason lorries come across to Slane through Ashbourne is to save time or money. Can anything be done? The people of Slane cannot continue to live as they are living at present and the witnesses have a responsibility to get those lorries off the road. Although the M1 is available, it is not being used. Is there anything that can be done with the M1 to prevent lorries from coming down to Slane from the Collon side? They are the ones that are causing trouble.

Mr. Fred Barry

Traffic growth on the M1 has been higher than on any of the other non-urban roads in the country in the past four or five years. It simply is not correct to state that traffic is not using the M1.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I disagree.

Mr. Fred Barry

This is a matter of established fact and the counters are there. Traffic growth on the M1 is greater than on any other non-urban road in recent years. I fully accept that——

Deputy Shane McEntee

I disagree with Mr. Barry. While he may throw up facts and so on, he should live in Slane for a day to see what it is like. While one can throw up facts and excuses repeatedly, the bottom line is that traffic is leaving the M1 and travelling through Slane to save on the toll. That is what is happening.

Mr. Fred Barry

I do not disagree that there is a great deal of traffic in Slane. That is not my point.

Deputy Shane McEntee

It is increasing daily.

Mr. Fred Barry

I am saying categorically there has been immense traffic growth on the M1, including after the imposition of the toll. Thus, I do not think it is correct to blame the situation on the toll.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Some people are obviously avoiding it. That is the point Deputy McEntee is making.

Deputy Shane McEntee

If one talks to the lorry drivers one will see that is the case.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The key point is which is the lesser of two evils — that more people die in Slane or that we find an alternative safe route for the vehicles and give them notice at a reasonable time that they cannot use this road any more. That is what we will have to do.

Chairman

What was Deputy McEntee's point about the NRA forbidding traffic? Was he talking about forbidding access on to the motorway?

Deputy Shane McEntee

It is a contradiction. Businesses in Slane have closed down one by one because of the traffic because one cannot stop in Slane. It is not safe to stop in Slane. We have built the M1 and we have had two objections by the NRA to businesses starting off the M1. One action contradicts the other. Around 300 or 400 jobs were lost at Drogheda United and the same on the roundabout in Stamullen. The NRA was totally out of line in objecting to that.

Chairman

Could the witnesses comment on that?

Mr. Fred Barry

I certainly could. It is far from being out of line. Under the same legislation passed by these gentlemen in the Oireachtas, we are a statutory consultee on planning issues. We do not make the decisions, which are made by An Bord Pleanála, but not only are we entitled to make our views known, we are obliged to.

Chairman

I take that point. However, although Mr. Barry knows I am a great admirer of the NRA——

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

Chairman

——there is a dictatorial approach from the NRA with regard to this issue. It is not just in respect of what Deputy McEntee has mentioned. There is almost a dog-in-the-manger attitude: it will not allow businesses on any motorway but at the same time it cannot solve problems such as the one with Slane that we are hearing about today. With due respect, there should be greater flexibility on the part of the NRA in respect of the type of issue mentioned by Deputy McEntee.

Mr. Fred Barry

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has draft guidelines on which it has consulted with local authorities. These guidelines will change the stated national policies we implement at the moment. We are fully in favour of those and we will be quite happy if the Department issues them. When they are issued we will operate on that basis and our comments to An Bord Pleanála will be couched in terms of those revised guidelines. However, until they are issued, we are bound — as is everybody else in the system — by stated policy which goes back about 20 years.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

In fairness to the NRA——

Deputy Shane McEntee

Just as the NRA is statutorily bound to ensure that the roads through Slane are safe, which they are not.

Mr. Fred Barry

Our solution to that is a bypass.

Deputy Shane McEntee

That will not happen for three or four years.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am representing my colleague Senator Hannigan today. The N2 is a road in its own right. The NRA made a decision to build the dual carriageway out towards Ashbourne, with which I am familiar, although I am not as familiar with the road beyond that. Who decided about the bypass? There are so many towns screaming for bypasses around the country and we focus on Slane — rightly so, based on the strong case made by my colleagues here. I was in Claregalway, for example, where people are very upset they will not get a bypass. We have heard this story for so many key towns along the N7 and N9, although many of these have now been dealt with. Who decided we would not do this incredibly necessary job for Slane two years ago? In other words, why is it not already built? Why are we only at the planning stage? Why are we going to put the people of Slane through two or three more years of agony?

Mr. Fred Barry

The national development plan and Transport 21 set out transportation policies over the ten years of Transport 21, and they also set out priorities for the early phases of it. Some of the works had already gone towards tender or construction at the time the policy was launched, and then the major inter-urban routes were given priority. After that, we were to prioritise work on the Atlantic corridor, with which Deputy Fahey will be familiar, and this has led to the sequencing of the inter-urbans over the past few years, although they will be done next year as per plan, and the other works that were already down the line when Transport 21 began.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Would it be fair, then, to say this is something the Government could have put higher on its agenda? We could then have got to it earlier. We must bear in mind that the N2 is an important road in its own right.

Mr. Fred Barry

The N2 is an important road and Slane is an important bypass. It is in the same position as many other projects around the country which we hope to get done in the second phase of Transport 21. Whether one is just in front of or behind the other, we are pretty committed with funding until the end of next year on the inter-urban routes. After that we will be able to get moving on significant works beyond this category.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I have a question for the county manager, whom I warmly welcome.

I understand the point he is making — in my experience in the Dublin region, when one makes a fundamental change, other areas will start taking the pressure. However, Slane is suffering. Why will he not just implement ferocious traffic calming measures — whatever is necessary — as the residents are urging? Why does he not make it so uncomfortable for HGVs that they wish to leave Slane? Can it not be made almost impossible for them, which would remove the whole concern as far as possible? Why does he not do what the residents are asking?

Mr. Tom Dowling

There is a combination of factors. What the Deputy is saying is absolutely true; we could make it uncomfortable for traffic, but part of that would involve a number of short-term improvement works. In addition, we could introduce a new reduced speed limit, on which our colleagues in the NRA would be quite happy to support us. However, the real problem is the heavy goods vehicles going through the village. We would have to upgrade other roads. When talking earlier with Deputy O'Dowd I could not help thinking that when we changed the traffic route for all HGVs, he would probably come to me representing a different group from further up. This is the problem we have.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I must do my job and the county manager must do his. This is about a decision of a statutory body, Meath County Council, to instruct Mr. Dowling to have no more HGVs through the village. He must carry that out, and obviously he must do it with regard to due process. If there is traffic coming on a particular road with which there is a problem, all the traffic is not coming on that particular route, so why does he not start with the ones he can ban? He can say no more traffic is to come on a certain route and the HGVs must go somewhere else. I do not know the exact volume of traffic involved, but he must effect the decision of the elected members. I am not lecturing to him, but that is what must happen.

Mr. Tom Dowling

I understand.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

If there is a difficulty with traffic on one route, he must examine and measure it and see whether there is another way around it. I take the points of view of Deputies McEntee and Broughan on increasing the traffic calming measures, but there is no scenario in which more people are at risk of losing their lives than under the present circumstances. That is the key point. It is the nightmare scenario these people must face. Whatever other scenarios exist, they are not as bad as that.

I must accept what Mr. Barry is saying. He is doing his job as he is legally obliged to. It is a matter of due process at this stage and the Government must provide the finance. It must do what Meath County Council has, as a corporate body, asked it to; namely, to effect the ban. If it means it is enforced only on certain roads initially, so be it. Everybody will get the message.

In addition, there is an issue of safety to be considered. It is a dangerous road; if one goes from Collon to Dublin in a car doing 30 miles per hour one is taking one's life in one's hands. We must get the HGVs off that road. If this anticipates the bypass, so what?

Chairman

Is it around a particular town?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I do not know the full traffic counts or the locations, but I do not see why this is not done. I am sure the county council can effect some immediate stoppage. It can say the HGVs cannot come by this route so they must go some other way.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Keep them on the M1. That is the answer.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

It could be done partially or in a phased way.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I apologise for my absence earlier. I echo what Deputy O'Dowd said. This is a very simple issue. The elected members of the council, following public and political pressure, have obligated the officials to institute a ban on HGVs passing through the village. It is that simple. Three problems were listed, of which one is possible exposure in legal terms. I do not know if the issue has been discussed, but I do not know what level of exposure Slane has compared to Dublin or Enfield where HGVs bans are currently in place. Delays in making deliveries were referred to, but they are not a matter for the council. Also, the council cannot be held responsible for the frustrations of businesses. There are ways of dealing with such issues, perhaps by scheduling the HGV ban or allowing local deliveries. They are very simple problems to deal with and I would dismiss them as concerns for the council because they can be dealt with through timetables, scheduling or allowing certain HGVs to enter the village. If somebody needs to make a delivery in the village, he or she will be allowed in.

I would like to examine the level of exposure in legal terms and would be interested in hearing the advice the delegation received in that regard. If there are cases where local authorities have been found legally liable in banning HGVs in the interest of saving lives, perhaps the NRA or other witnesses could enlighten us about them. I do not want to be facetious, but that is the point to be made. Slane is in a uniquely dangerous position but also in a uniquely fortunate position from the point of view of imposing a HGV ban. There is the N2-M2 and now the M3, which provide two easy alternative routes. In Enfield one does not have such alternatives. In Dublin there is the port tunnel, which provides an alternative route to the M50. Therefore, it is easier to facilitate a HGV ban in Slane than in other places.

There will be problems and complaints from Beaupark, Grangegeeth and Louth, but we can deal with these. Anything an administrative body, whether it be the council or the Government, puts in place that changes something that has been in place for years will always engender complaints. It is a fact of life. Deputy McEntee and I will deal with such complaints as much as the local authority and the NRA will. I will stand over any decision the council makes. If it bans HGVs, we will defend and uphold the decision made, not try to frustrate it or complain if someone contacts our offices. I urge the council to show resolve. It will have the support of the NRA and the Department in imposing this ban. If there are legal difficulties, about which I am shocked, the Minister can pass legislation to alleviate them. I would like to know what they are because I am not sure there are any.

Mr. Tom Dowling

I would dearly like to able to implement the resolution with the stroke of a pen. I travel through the area frequently, almost as much as Deputies McEntee and Byrne do. The advice I am given is that it is a very difficult task. I have to have regard to the advice I am given. The reason I am given such advice is that we will have to direct HGVs down unsuitable roads that may not be capable of handling such traffic. Deputy Byrne mentioned Beaupark and other places and I understand where he is coming from. It will create new hazards on the road to which he referred.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am not saying I expect lorries to be allowed to pass through Beaupark, rather that they will not be allowed to do so because of the N3 and the M1. That is my point. I am sure people will try to pass through Beaupark, but I envisage the council will not allow lorries to pass through it.

Mr. Tom Dowling

No, I would like to think we would not. I am making the point that the advice we are given is that it will be extremely difficult to implement. If we can do it, or parts of it, we will find a way to do so. We would like to do it, but we will have to talk to the neighbouring authorities. We want to consult further with the NRA on the issue. It was a short period of time from 6 April to 6 July. We prepared a report for the council meeting on 6 July and are following up on a way of doing something. I am always afraid we will divert everything away from the goal of securing a bypass for Slane because it will be destroyed if it is not bypassed.

Chairman

I suppose that is a risk, but I am sure Mr. Barry will confirm that if a ban is imposed, it will not slow down the bypass.

Mr. Fred Barry

I confirm that we will go to An Bord Pleanála as soon as we have the documentation ready, whether or not there is a HGV ban in place. We would not let it get in the way in moving towards provision of a bypass.

Chairman

Before I bring Mr. Ryle back in, in view of the very strong views expressed, will the delegation agree to examine the imposition of a temporary ban, using the corridors mentioned by both Deputies, to see how it would work? We all agree it is a most unusual situation and that no other location in the country is as bad as this one.

Deputy Shane McEntee

It is actually the worst in Europe. The bridge in Slane has the worst rate in Europe for road deaths, despite all the money we have taken into the country.

Mr. Tom Dowling

I agree that we are listening very carefully to everything that is being said to see if there is any possibility of imposing a partial ban. I understand where everyone is coming from. The committee can take it as read.

Mr. John Ryle

I am disappointed that this discourse has focused on one issue. Our point of view is that a ban would be very welcome but only as an interim measure. When all the trucks are passing through Drogheda, Deputy O'Dowd might have a problem.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

My point is that either the delegation wants matters to be safer or it does not. The committee, the delegation and the council are not playing games. It was a short-term decision. If there is a problem in Drogheda, I will be the first person on the telephone.

Mr. John Ryle

I am expressing my disappointment in so far as the questions we put to Meath County Council and the NRA have not been addressed.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

What are they? I am sorry if questions put to us were not answered.

Mr. John Ryle

They were answered. When will the cycle of action cease? What will break it? When will construction of the bypass start and what will be done to protect us in the meantime? Does the committee believe the current measures are adequate to ensure acceptable standards of road safety in Slane? What does it think will happen on the N2 through Slane when the M3 with its double toll opens next year? The opening of the M1 resulted in no significant decrease in the number of HGVs passing through Slane. The number of cars decreased, as the graph in the presentation made last week showed. There is a marginal variation in the number of HGVs passing through. The tolls had an effect, as will the M3 with its double toll because people are already accessing the eastern part of Cavan through Slane. They come into the village, turn left onto the Slane-Kells road and can head towards Kingscourt and on to Kells if they wish. They avoid the M3 in that way. Where does that leave us?

Chairman

In the interest of giving a community man straight answers, I ask the delegates to be as specific as possible. I know they have answered the questons asked in part already.

Mr. Fred Barry

I will answer them as best I can. We will be very supportive of traffic improvement measures within Slane that Meath County Council comes forward with. Planning permission is being sought for the bypass. Like anybody else, I cannot say when it will receive planning permission and what reviews it might have to go through after that.

Chairman

Will Mr. Barry at least give Mr. Ryle an indication, based on his experiences with An Bord Pleanála, of the timescale involved and the stages of planning that will have to be completed before the project commences?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes. The planning cycle on typical projects takes about a year to get through An Bord Pleanála. From the time one submits, they conduct oral hearings and write up the reports. It is about a year later, or maybe a little bit more sometimes, when An Bord Pleanála comes out with its decisions. If there is a great deal of controversy during the oral hearings — and there may be here because of the environmental and cultural heritage issues — the oral hearings will take longer, as will the board's deliberations. Once they come out with a decision, and assuming it is a positive one in favour of it, then we are normally in a position to go ahead with acquiring the land, as well as the archaeological works and pre-construction works that allow construction to go ahead. That is true generally but occasionally judicial reviews are taken by people objecting to the approval given by An Bord Pleanála to schemes.

The Chairman has already alluded to one concerning the Galway bypass. New Ross does not have the safety issues of Slane, but we have congestion that is as bad as it is anywhere. That is also subject to a judicial review and is holding up that process for the moment. On the Galway judicial review, if it goes through the commercial courts, it will be from about March or April this year to October when we hope to get a decision from the High Court. If it is left in the non-commercial High Court, which is at the discretion of the High Court, it may take longer. Therefore one is looking at a year or two to get through the planning cycle and all that goes with it. Once we are through, it then comes down strictly to funding.

Chairman

What does Mr. Barry think will happen on the N2 through Slane when the double-tolled M3 opens?

Mr. Fred Barry

When the M3 opens, the existing N3 will still be there. Therefore I think more of the traffic that is currently going North-South at the moment will go on the combined M3 and N3 than is currently on the N3.

Chairman

Mr. Barry does not think it will affect Slane negatively?

Mr. Fred Barry

No, I do not. The existing road will not go away and traffic will use the M3.

Chairman

What about the county manager?

Mr. Tom Dowling

As regards the last point, I agree with Mr. Barry who is absolutely right. The combined M3 and N3 will take a great deal of traffic. There was one question from Deputy Byrne that I should have answered earlier. We believe that if we divert traffic down unsuitable roads, and something happens — for example, going over a bridge that may not be suitable for heavy goods vehicles — that may be a problem for us, particularly as we have directed them down there. They may well have been directed by another local authority, but that is our problem.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am not asking the manager to divert them down the Boyne bridges. I am asking him to direct them down the M1 and the M3.

Mr. Tom Dowling

We understand that, yes. However, we may cause a problem there. I am sorry, Chairman, but I have forgotten the first question.

Chairman

Does the county manager honestly believe that current measures are adequate to ensure acceptable road safety standards in Slane?

Mr. Tom Dowling

No, I do not believe they are adequate. We all accept they are not adequate. Measures have been taken and we are prepared to take other interim measures, including seeking a reduction in the speed limit to 30 km/h. We are prepared to do things like that, but I cannot get away from the fact that the village must have a bypass. I know that will take a short period and in the meantime we will take interim measures. As I said earlier, we have the report that was presented to the council on 6 July and if there is any way we can find of getting heavy goods vehicles out of the village we will do so. That is one commitment we will make here.

Chairman

We are talking about a year for the An Bord Pleanála process and possibly another year to construction start, if there are no serious objections. Given the beautiful place Mr. Ryle lives in, I would be worried about that.

Mr. John Ryle

We were at this position twice before. Quite an amount of preliminary work was done on the first route selected. They then introduced a slight change to the entrances and exits and had to go through the whole rigmarole again. When nearing the completion of procedures for that, they suggested it should be a four-lane highway. If traffic warrants a four-lane highway now, why in the name of God was it not built years ago when the same volumes were going through Slane? This whole thing is being constructed by procrastination. It has been going on since 2001. I am not allowed to use unparliamentary language around here.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Go ahead.

Mr. John Ryle

It is raiméis. The Chairman knows that word. We are getting the same drivel and twaddle at each stage of the process. They were at the point of talking at the last stage. I know some of the farmers to whom they were talking about the purchase of land and CPOs. We are not fools in Slane. They should not try to pull the wool over our eyes with every little change that is made. They just do not want to do the blooming thing and they should admit it. I do not know if there is an ulterior motive or a hidden agenda. They should have been honest about this from the word go. The kernel of whole thing is safety. The NRA is committed in what it was set up to do, to provide a safe and efficient road system. That is great as far as its new projects are concerned, but it is also concerned with safety on existing national primary roads. The N2 is a national primary road, yet the NRA does not seem to have the slightest interest in the safety of people who traverse the blackest spot on the national primary route system in this country.

Chairman

The action group's case has been well made. With respect, we have two of the finest officials in the country in Mr. Fred Barry and Mr. Tom Dowling. They have given a commitment, which we will monitor in the short term, concerning the proposals made by Deputies McEntee, Byrne, O'Dowd and Broughan. We will monitor the short-term and longer-term aspects. I can vouch for Mr. Barry's commitment to get things done. There is no question or doubt about it. Whatever has gone by in the past, I am satisfied with the commitments being given by both gentlemen today. Mr. Ryle has made his case well and I hope that will help to expedite the matter so that we will see progress. I appeal to the county manager because some short-term trial diversion of HGVs on to both motorways would be worth trying. It would avoid using some of the smaller roads that, as Mr. Dowling rightly mentioned, he does not want HGV traffic to use. If that is done and every effort is made to expedite the bypass, Mr. Ryle's case will have been well made.

Mr. John Ryle

I thank the Chairman. I apologise for being so emotional.

Chairman

No harm.

Mr. John Ryle

It is a very emotive subject in the village of Slane.

Chairman

It is obvious that Mr. Ryle is a genuine man with a genuine cause. I will leave it to the two Deputies to make their final comments. Before they do so, however, we have had Mr. Barry's response on the Tuam issue but I wish to make one point, which is exactly what Deputy McEntee said earlier. The NRA is doing a bypass around Tuam. There is a proposal by local industrial interests to make an entry-exit on to that by-pass which will not cost the NRA money. As I understand it, the council is prepared to do it, so will the NRA consider facilitating the proposal? It is closing off a considerable amount of land, which people will have to go around using small roads to get into it.

Mr. Fred Barry

As proposed at the moment, there will be three separate junctions in a 4-km or 5-km stretch on that road. By any stretch of the imagination, that could not be described as closing off something.

Chairman

No. There is only one junction on the bypass.

Mr. Fred Barry

There will be three.

Chairman

The proposal given to me yesterday, which we will send on to Mr. Barry, is that it will be a grade-separated junction. There will not be a junction, as such, on the bypass. I am asking Mr. Barry to examine the proposal that has been put to us and perhaps come back to us on it.

Mr. Fred Barry

We will certainly do that. I will revert to the Chairman on it. However, as long as it is a Part 8 application, we need to work on this with Galway County Council.

Chairman

What exactly is a Part 8 application?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is a Galway County Council decision. It does not go to An Bord Pleanála.

Chairman

Yes, I know that, but that is why I made the comment earlier. I hope Mr. Barry will take it as constructive criticism.

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

Chairman

The NRA just does not want to know about any arrangement whereby the bypass can be accessed. This is the same point as that made earlier by Deputy McEntee.

Mr. Fred Barry

We do not receive much airtime in respect of the number of occasions on which we reach agreements with either developers or local authorities. It is only when we disagree on a matter that it receives an airing at a forum such as this. However, I will consider whatever material members may wish to submit.

Chairman

I preface my remarks by stating that Mr. Egan has been excellent on all of the occasions on which I have had discussions with him. However, I will comment on the NRA's objection to the development at Galwegians rugby club. I have spoken to the engineers involved, those responsible for road safety, and so on, and everyone is simply gobsmacked by the views of the NRA. I have been assured by council and private consultant engineers that the fact that there was a safety issue did not arise in respect of that decision. However, the NRA insisted on lodging an objection with An Bord Pleanála in respect of a road which runs towards Clifden and which is extremely dangerous.

I discussed this matter with Deputy McEntee and others and I am of the view that the NRA will not compromise in respect of matters of this nature. It should be prepared to compromise because we do not live in a utopia. It is not possible to put pitches in place in and around Galway city and some access must be provided on to some of the national secondary roads throughout the region. The NRA must display greater flexibility in respect of the matters to which I refer.

Mr. Fred Barry

I reiterate that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is issuing new guidelines on access to national roads. We will be happy to work with those guidelines when they are issued. The guidelines may address, perhaps beneficially from the point of view of members, some of the issues under discussion but there is also a chance that they may not do so. Perhaps the committee should take the matter up with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and his Department.

Chairman

We will invite the Minister to come before us.

Mr. Fred Barry

The Department sets the rules to which we work.

Chairman

We will also invite officials from the Department to come before us. I will say no more about the case to which I refer.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

There are reports that the Dublin Port tunnel is not being included in the European tunnel assessment programme, EuroTAP. An article in the motoring section of The Irish Times indicates that this is due to the fact that the NRA sent an e-mail to EuroTAP in March 2008 requesting the inclusion of the Dublin Port tunnel but that EuroTAP did not seem to receive it. Mr. Barry has made the point on several occasions that the tunnel was constructed to and operates under the highest EU safety standards. I am not sure what the position is with regard to the Jack Lynch tunnel and the new Shannon tunnel. However, the Dublin Port tunnel should have been included under EuroTAP.

Has the NRA engaged in discussions with the Minister for Transport or his Department in respect of funding for its programme from 2010 onwards? I commend the NRA on the outstanding work it has done in delivering so many projects before or on time and for ensuring that we are finally on the way to having a reasonable road network. Has there been any indication that the ideology which marks the activities of an bord snip nua will affect the interurban or post-interurban situation? The latter obviously includes Slane.

Chairman

I have given the Deputy a degree of latitude and he should not go beyond that.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

That was my second question. Mr. Barry does not often come before the committee, so it is a pleasure to be able to put questions to him.

Chairman

To be fair to Mr. Barry, he is always willing to attend.

Mr. Fred Barry

We would like to be included in the European road assessment programme, EuroRAP, survey. These surveys are conducted in different countries by organisations that are the equivalent of the AA. We intend to ask the Irish AA to assist in having us included.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Is it true that the NRA sent an e-mail but that this was not received?

Mr. Fred Barry

We sent the e-mail and it was received. However, I do not know what happened to it thereafter.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

E-mails usually either get to the intended address or they do not.

Mr. Fred Barry

I brought a copy of the e-mail with me in the event that questions might arise. The e-mail was sent. As already stated, we are going to ask the Irish AA to assist us in being included under the next survey. These surveys are carried out every couple of years or so.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Is it likely that we will be included?

Mr. Fred Barry

I would expect so. We will certainly be included if the AA supports our application, which, I am sure, it will. There is no reason it should not support us.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

What is the position with regard to the other matter to which I referred?

Mr. Fred Barry

We are never given official figures in respect of the following year's spend until the budget process has been completed. The indications are that there will be enough money in the kitty to complete the interurban routes and the other work we have in progress. We are unlikely to start any new major projects next year. That is without reference to what might be contained in Colm McCarthy's report, of which we have not yet had sight.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Road construction pricing has dropped by approximately 20%. I am sure this would be of assistance in the context of the value for money the NRA might obtain.

Mr. Fred Barry

Compared to previous years——

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

This is the best time to build roads.

Mr. Fred Barry

It is the best time to issue notices to treat for land, from the point of view of being able to purchase it for a less exorbitant price.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

In the context of the national development plan, Transport 21 or whatever, now is the time to proceed with the interurban routes, the Leinster outer-orbital route, the Slane bypass or whatever. It will never be cheaper to pursue these projects than it is at present.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

We received information yesterday in respect of the M50 concession. Is it not the case that in the past the NRA was informed that it should pursue particular projects because they were so important? For example, the chaos that used to obtain at the Red Cow roundabout on the M50 prompted one such intervention. Would it be possible to proceed with the Slane bypass, which is extremely important, on the same grounds?

Mr. Fred Barry

Under the Act, the Minister has discretion to give us specific direction on the exercise of any of our functions.

Chairman

I am sure the Minister will not be found wanting in that regard.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We are aware of the provision to which Mr. Barry refers. The Minister is only too well aware of the position with regard to the Slane bypass. It might not be a bad idea if, as happened on a previous occasion, the Slane Action Group had a follow-up meeting with the Minister. One of my constituency offices is located in Slane and I am aware that the road there — even with traffic lights in place — is one of the most dangerous in the country to try to cross. Mr. Ryle is not wrong in that regard. As a grown man, I am wary and afraid when I cross that road. I would hate to think what it must be like for those who are obliged, on a regular basis, to cross the road from the other side to get their children to school or whatever. All the accidents that have taken place on the road in question are evidence of the danger it poses.

I urge the council to ban HGVs from Slane. I accept that only a couple of months have passed but HGVs have been banned from the streets of Dublin and Enfield and a partial ban obtains in Drogheda. The council should follow the examples that exist nationally. There are alternative routes, namely, the M3 and the M1, and these should be used. The councillors, who are the elected representatives of the people, have spoken. I would be interested to attend any meetings that might be held and I understand Deputies have the right to attend council meetings. I would like to pursue this matter, in conjunction with other local Deputies, with Mr. Cummins, in particular, as well as local councillors because we have a responsibility in respect of it.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I thank our guests for coming before us. While one might not always like what it has to say, I am aware that the NRA is always straight up in its dealings. I must inform Mr. Cummins that people in County Meath appreciate the good roads that have been put in place there, such as the Ashbourne bypass, the M3 and the M1. If the county had obtained access to the relevant funding, there might not have been any difficulty in the context of diverting traffic. There are 22 crosses on the bridge in Slane at present. If one more cross is put in place, it will be on our heads. We cannot wait in respect of this matter. We must take the bull by the horns. The NRA has a major role to play by encouraging motorists to remain on the M1. What Mr. Ryle says is correct — it is these motorists who are causing the trouble. I have no doubt that the county manager and his team will take all other necessary action. However, we should not wait for six weeks. Action should be taken tomorrow.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Barry, Mr. Egan, Mr. Dowling and Mr. Cummins for their co-operation. I wish Mr. Ryle and his group good luck. We all support the project. I have pleasant memories of Slane as my first job as a student was driving a Connacht Laundry van. On my first day I was sent to Greenhills towel factory to collect a load of roller towels. I wish the group well.

Mr. John Ryle

I thank the committee. We are a little happier, although nobody with responsibility for funding the project has made a commitment, which is the bottom line. We have said enough. Three ladies are present who were almost killed on 23 March but for the grace of God. If a delivery truck had not been in front of a HGV that was out of control, there would have been carnage and we would have received funding for the project by now.

Chairman

Mr. Ryle can depend on his fellow Meath man when it comes to funding. The Minister will not let him down.

Mr. John Ryle

I hope not.

Chairman

I thank everybody again.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.50 p.m until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 September 2009.