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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 2009

Consultancy Reports: Discussion with Iarnród Éireann.

Vice Chairman

The next item on our agenda is a discussion with Iarnród Éireann. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Dr. John Lynch, chairman, Mr. Richard Fearn, chief executive, Mr. Paul Kiely, audit committee, Mr. Barry Kenny, communications manager and Mr. Ronan Gill, commercial manager of Iarnród Éireann. We will now have a short presentation, followed by questions and answers.

Dr. John Lynch

Thank you. This is the second meeting of this committee on the Baker Tilley report. I will outline again the genesis of this report. It needs to be stressed that larnród Éireann — and larnród Éireann only — identified the problem at its North Wall operation, which involved the activities of some middle and junior level operatives. As a result, larnród Éireann activated certain procedures. It terminated the employment of the three people involved. It recovered €100,000 from one of the operatives. It instituted proceedings against an external contractor. It alerted the Garda Síochána, which has since prosecuted the three former employees. It revamped its procurement and internal control procedures. It requested Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon to test the robustness of its procurement and internal controls system.

This process is exactly what would be expected of any good management and it was duly executed within the larnród Éireann structure. Regrettably, this specific issue seems to have been blown out of proportion and a generalisation has been made. We note that, since our last meeting, there has been a continuing refusal to withdraw some of the untrue allegations in regard to the Iarnród Éireann workforce being rife with fraud and collusion. This is regrettable. However, we are happy once again to put on record our confidence in the honesty and integrity of our workforce. In addition, there has been an attempt to give the impression that we cannot manage projects and are inefficient. Some facts need to be considered to contextualise the operations over the past nine years.

From 2001 to 2009, the Government entrusted Iarnród Éireann with an investment portfolio for the railways of the order of €2.7 billion. As a result, in those nine years 450 miles of track has been replaced, 570 level crossings have been upgraded, 300 bridges have been built, 14 new rail stations have been opened, DART stations have been upgraded, 35 other stations have been upgraded and refurbished, accessibility works have been carried out at 35 stations, ticket validation works have been completed at 11 DART stations, the DART fleet increased by 56 vehicles, modern commuter trains were added to the fleet with 116 new vehicles, intercity railcars were introduced, intercity carriages were introduced, new routes have been opened, including Docklands and Midleton, and Ennis to Athenry will soon be opened, and the Drogheda railcar service centre has been completed, as has the Laois train care centre.

It should be noted that there is a structure for undertaking investments which ensures money is well spent in compliance with Government guidelines. All major projects are submitted to the Department of Transport for Transport 21 funding with a detailed business case which is reviewed by the Department and external economic consultants to establish compliance with Department of Finance guidelines. Audits of physical progress with selected major projects are undertaken quarterly by external consultants on behalf of the Department of Transport. To date in the period 2001 to 2009, Iarnród Éireann has officially closed out 263 Transport 21 related projects and, of these, 97% came in on time and under budget. The net total under-expenditure on the 263 projects was more than €40 million. I suggest that in this case we have a management team and workforce that is without peer in terms of delivering major capital projects.

Supporting this viewpoint, Iarnród Éireann as a semi-State body is subject to periodic audits by the Department of Transport. In recent years, several reports have been produced which have concluded that Iarnród Éireann is operating in an efficient and effective manner. For example, an audit report by consultants commissioned by the Department of Transport concluded that the railway safety programme 2004-08 was good value and had delivered the investment projects and achieved the objectives set for the programme. A consultants' report by Booz Allen Hamilton, published by the Department in 2007, confirmed that Iarnród Éireann provided value for money to the public as a result of State subvention. The overall conclusion of the report was that Iarnród Éireann used its subvention to improve efficiency which, according to the consultants, indicated that the company was doing the right thing. Crucially, the report found that there are social benefits for the country arising from the subvention that go far beyond purely financial considerations. Without the subvention, the rail service would be dramatically less attractive and less comprehensive. In addition, subvention to Iarnród Éireann is among the lowest in Europe.

While completing the huge number of projects, Iarnród Éireann has at the same time expanded its operations in terms of passenger journeys and service levels. For example, hourly services were introduced on the Dublin to Cork route, there are eight services per day on the Sligo route, there is increased frequency for Limerick, Galway, Westport, Wexford and Waterford, DART capacity increased by 100%, and there has been expansion of commuter services, including Clonsilla to Docklands, and expansion of outer commuter services, including from Gorey, Kilkenny-Carlow, Athlone, Portlaoise and Longford. As a result of the investment and service changes, Iarnród Éireann became the fastest growing passenger railway in Europe in the period 2001 to 2007.

While the challenge of lifting the railway into the 21st century has been a significant one, prior to the advent of the current recession Iarnród Éireann acted to reduce its costs and cost reductions and efficiencies have been effected since 2002. At a time when passenger numbers increased by 30%, there has been a reduction of 1,600 staff, or 26% of the workforce, generating significant cost savings of approximately €100 million in today's terms. Such reductions in labour costs and other efficiencies have resulted in the application of new technology in signalling, communication and maintenance. This requires upskilling of our staff. While we expanded services and reduced our staff levels, there has been no official strike during this period. It was good planning and implementation that led to Iarnród Éireann reducing its cost base during the Celtic tiger period — one of the few companies in the State to do so — while at the same time increasing its customers and services.

In addition to our submission to the previous meeting of this committee and to clarify some points of information from our previous attendance, my board colleague Mr. Kiely will shortly address the handling of these issues from a board audit committee point of view. As I have detailed, having a company of the size and complexity of Iarnród Éireann and the wider CIE group brings many challenges for management. I have demonstrated for the committee that, far from the erroneous impression some would seek to create of an unfocused management at the head of a dishonest workforce, we have had a genuinely transformational era in Iarnród Éireann. It has renewed its fleet and infrastructure, developed services, and identified and addressed problems and issues as they arose.

I would like to make one further point before I conclude. My colleague, Mr. Paul Kiely, is present to explain the process of the CIE audit committee and how the board was informed. However, I should rectify my statement at the last meeting that the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report was circulated to other CIE board members. It was not.

Will Dr. Lynch repeat that?

Dr. John Lynch

Yes. I want to clarify and rectify my statement at the last meeting that the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report was circulated to other CIE board members. It was not. What I meant to convey was that the board was advised of the report and the relevant issues on a continual basis. I have since clarified that the issues were brought to the board's attention at the first available opportunity.

Did anyone see the actual report?

Dr. John Lynch

Mr. Paul Kiely.

Vice Chairman

I call on Mr. Paul Kiely.

Mr. Paul Kiely

I thank the Vice Chairman. For the record, I am listed as being chair of the audit committee of Iarnród Éireann. That is factually incorrect. I am the chair of the CIE board audit committee.

What is the significance of that?

I believe the Iarnród Éireann board got the report but the CIE board did not. Is that correct?

Dr. John Lynch

We will explain that. Mr. Kiely is chairman of the CIE audit committee.

What the witness corrected was the suggestion that the board of CIE saw the report. However, they did not.

Dr. John Lynch

I may have stated that the last time. I cannot remember and I did not get the blacks. I just want to make sure of the point.

That is fine. I have the transcripts here.

Vice Chairman

The point is made and understood.

Mr. Paul Kiely

I thank the committee for its invitation to me to attend today in my role as chairman of the CIE board audit committee to discuss issues arising in the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report. I wish, in the first instance, to outline briefly for members the roles and responsibilities of the CIE board audit committee. I would summarise the areas as follows: matters relating to the appointment of the external auditors; matters relating to the external audit itself; matters relating to the annual accounts with particular focus on accounting and corporate governance standards and legal requirements; matters relating to the internal audit function; and matters relating to the findings of internal investigations, reports of the internal auditors and management's responses. It is this latter area which is the primary focus of our discussions today.

I wish to stress that the role of the audit committee is one of oversight. Overall responsibility for the system controls and procurement processes rests with the executive management of the companies, which must adhere to group policies. Monitoring of these policies and the effectiveness of their implementation at group level is undertaken by the CIE board audit committee. We are assisted in our work by the external auditors, the internal audit department, the audit review groups of the three subsidiary boards, the chief financial officer and company secretary of the CIE group, as well as the chief executives, chief financial officers and other senior management, as deemed necessary from time to time, of each of the three operating companies. All in all, CIE board audit committee meetings can be attended by up to 20 people.

The areas of stock control, the adherence to procurement policies and the general control environment, including revenue protection, have been key areas of focus for my committee and for the internal audit department for some time. Each year, reviews have resulted in improvements to the control environment and these improvements were confirmed and commented on to my committee by the external auditors. I note the Baker Tilly report repeatedly states that reform in these areas was well advanced. Our consistent focus on these matters, and the decisive action taken can be evinced from the following sample actions of the audit committee.

The CIE board audit committee, at its meeting on 11 October 2006, was advised by the head of the internal audit department of a serious stock-related issue in the North Wall area, of which he had recently been advised by larnród Éireann management. I requested that a full report on these issues be prepared for the next meeting to be held on 13 December 2006, and I received such. That report detailed concerns relating to the misappropriation of sleepers and other redundant infrastructure materials, as well as inappropriate transactions with contractors. An allegation of potentially large losses was also recorded. The committee directed that the internal audit department be fully involved and that the committee be kept informed of the progress of investigations. The CIE board was fully apprised of all issues raised.

At a meeting on 4 July 2007, in an update from the chief executive on the investigation, we were advised of the action plan being overseen by Mr. Fearn himself, which included the appointment of Baker Tilly to investigate the issues arising in plant hire, labour contracts and the management of track materials. Representatives of Baker Tilly also were asked to attend a special CIE audit committee meeting on 8 October 2007 to discuss their investigation. The committee noted confirmation that Baker Tilly was receiving all assistance required from management in the course of its work. I wish to emphasise that all information in the possession of the CIE board audit committee prior to the issuing of the Baker Tilly report, including all estimates of loss due to fraudulent activity, had been reported to the board of CIE.

A special meeting of the CIE board audit committee was called for 18 June 2008, following the submission of a Baker Tilly draft report to management the previous week. Shortly prior to this meeting I requested and received a copy of the report from the chief executive of larnród Éireann to allow me verify the actual losses listed in the chief executive's summary, which had been circulated to the committee. It was noted that the findings in the report were consistent with the previous findings of internal investigations, which had been fully reported to the CIE board, and that no further instances of fraud or collusion were identified. Furthermore, the recommendations were consistent with the action plans already under way to address issues in procurement and internal controls. The committee was satisfied that the Baker Tilly draft report should be the final step in the investigative phase and that the focus of management should now be on the ongoing implementation of action plans and Baker Tilly recommendations. In addition, management was to continue to ensure compliance with procurement policy and to investigate any cases of non-compliance. These issues were advised, as usual, to the meeting of the CIE board on 3 September 2008.

It is important at this point to correct a matter which has been consistently misreported. I would like to clarify for the joint committee that from the time the suspected fraud in North Wall was reported to the CIE board audit committee in October 2006 and throughout the investigative period in 2007, the committee was always at full strength and there was only——

How many people is that?

Mr. Paul Kiely

The committee membership numbered four people. Moreover, there was only one vacancy on the committee at the time the Baker Tilly final draft was completed.

To conclude on the substantive matter being addressed today, I am satisfied these issues are being correctly managed within larnród Éireann and that there has been significant progress in addressing the issues identified. I note in particular the regular spot-checking by management on the implementation of the recommendations, the systematic reviews of the controls in the procurement process, as well as management's enforcement in ensuring proper documentation is available and that suitable training put in place. My committee of course will continue to track and monitor those actions and ensure there is a strong focus throughout the group on procurement and internal controls.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance. I also thank the chairman for correcting the statement he made at the joint committee meeting of 27 October last. I have the transcript of that meeting about the Baker Tilly report to hand. I stated "Therefore, both boards were in touch at all times with that" and then asked "When did they get the Baker Tilly report?", to which Dr. Lynch replied, "When it came out". Is it correct to state they never got it?

Dr. John Lynch

Yes. As I stated earlier, I am sorry about that. I would like to correct the record to the effect that the first person to get it was the chief executive, who in turn went to the chairman of the audit committee.

Did the board of Iarnród Éireann get it either?

Dr. John Lynch

No.

The board of neither Iarnród Éireann nor CIE received it.

Dr. John Lynch

The board members did not receive it. However, I should explain that on a board, the audit committee acts qua the board. It received the report and went through it, after which it reported it to the board.

It interpreted it to the board.

Dr. John Lynch

No, it reported it to the board. The audit committee acts for and on behalf of the board.

Why did board members not receive it?

Dr. John Lynch

As so many matters come to the CIE board we considered in respect of the reporting mechanism, that it is better that it is reported into the audit committee and the chairman of the audit committee will inform the board each month, which is what happened.

Although Dr. Lynch was supposed to revert to the joint committee on this issue, this report cost €450,000. Is that correct?

Dr. John Lynch

Yes.

Does that include VAT?

Mr Barry Kenny

I could not swear to that. I would be obliged to confirm that for the Senator.

It could have cost more than €500,000.

Dr. John Lynch

We will check the position in respect of VAT and will revert to the Senator.

Someone was meant to revert to the joint committee after the last meeting but never mind. This report, which cost €450,000, got as far as two audit committees but never reached the board.

Dr. John Lynch

That is not true.

Does Dr. Lynch suggest a copy of the report reached the board?

Dr. John Lynch

A copy of the report went to the chairman of the audit committee of the board. The chairman of that committee acts for and on behalf of the board in audit matters and he reported it to the board.

It was reported to the board——

Dr. John Lynch

Yes.

——but the board members never received a copy of this report.

Dr. John Lynch

No, they did not receive a copy.

This report got as far as the audit committee but did not get to the board and no word of it got to the Minister. Is this correct?

Dr. John Lynch

No, we did not give it to the Minister.

Basically, it stopped with the audit committees, which comprised small numbers of members, certainly of the board of CIE. Is it correct that Mr. Kiely's committee comprised four members of his board?

Mr. Paul Kiely

Yes.

At one stage last year, there were only two members on the audit committee of the board.

Mr. Paul Kiely

No, that is not true. The figure was reduced to two at the beginning of 2009, but we are back to full strength again.

Six months passed with only two members.

Mr. Paul Kiely

This year, not during any investigative term of this instance.

Dr. John Lynch

It is important to put something on record. Our board has four working directors, but it has various committees, the chairmen of which are empowered by the board to examine whatever items are before them. The chairman of the audit committee is empowered to act qua the board — it is the board — and he reports back to it.

Would no board member have benefited from seeing the report himself or herself?

Dr. John Lynch

I cannot say that.

It was an important report and I am sure that members would have been provided with a large amount of information and documentation that would not have cost €450,000.

Dr. John Lynch

I am sure they would have, but let us not forget the capital expenditure of close to €400 million, which must be examined.

Of course it must, but this report was dynamite. It concerned serious ongoing matters about which board members were entitled to know in detail.

Dr. John Lynch

Board members received a report every month.

From the chairman of the audit committee.

Dr. John Lynch

Who they entrusted to act on their behalf.

Was that an oral or written report?

Dr. John Lynch

It was written.

Mr. Paul Kiely

I covered this matter in my statement. At no time during the process was anything known by the CIE audit committee that had not been told to the CIE board either by me verbally or through the full minutes of my meetings, which are published in the board's papers.

I accept Mr. Kiely's statement.

Would members have known that the recommendations on procurement were so critical?

Mr. Paul Kiely

We were dealing with such issues for a long period prior to the investigation. We were examining items relating to stock control. Procurement recommendations had been made by management and were being implemented.

Did anyone on the board ask to see the report?

Mr. Paul Kiely

Nobody asked during that whole period. No one queried me about it in any way.

Did members not want to see a copy?

Mr. Paul Kiely

They accepted what I had told them in my summary. No one had further queries. Members were satisfied because, long before the report was issued, everything mentioned to the committee had been reported to them. When the report was published, it was equally pointed out that it contained no new allegations or revelations and that the value of the actual fraud, which had been costed and reported to them previously, was the same in the final report. Nothing controversial came out of the final report about which board members had not known already.

Was the board aware of the fact that a figure of €8.7 million in an original draft disappeared in the later draft?

Mr. Paul Kiely

I cannot put my hand to my heart and say that figure was told to the board. Its members were aware that there was a potential loss to the company of a high seven-figure sum. However, we dealt with this issue in my reports to the board and in the minutes it received. Therein, it was clearly shown that none of the figure was substantiated.

I do not accept that.

Mr. Paul Kiely

That is the fact.

Mr. Moloney is not present, but he will attend on another day when we will discuss how it all occurred.

Mr. Paul Kiely

The Senator asked me about who knew and I am telling him. I do not know whether Mr. Moloney would be able to shed any more light in this regard. I am telling the Senator the facts.

Who changed the interim report? It is continually referred to as an interim report rather than a draft report.

Mr. Paul Kiely

As far as I know, an interim report came, but I do not know who got the three copies of it.

Mr. Kiely is on the audit committee. Would he not need to see the report?

Mr. Paul Kiely

No. I did not commission it.

Mr. Kiely was dealing with it. He stated that he saw everything passing through. He was in charge and, for the purposes of the Baker Tilly report, he was the board.

Mr. Paul Kiely

Yes. I was being reported to concerning what was occurring in the investigation.

So Mr. Kiely would have seen the amount in question.

I have the document on my desk. It is called the interim and final report, dated 10 June 2008. Is it the case that, earlier in the year, there was a different interim report? The first part of the document is the systems review in the interim report and the second part is the forensic final report.

Mr. Paul Kiely

The report the Deputy has in his hand is the report with which I dealt.

Is it the whole of the report?

Mr. Paul Kiely

It is.

Mr. Dick Fearn

May I clarify the issue of the various reports? As chief executive, I have the information. The first report issued in January 2008 was an interim report on systems and processes. The term "interim report" was used, not "draft report". It was a big, thick document containing much information on systems and processes, many of which have been implemented. Mr. Ronan Gill, who is also in attendance, has been working hard on these systems, processes and so on.

A draft of the forensic element, stage 2 of the programme, was issued in May. This was the draft report containing the assessed figure of €8.7 million, which was not substantiated in the way in which the terms of reference asked that it be clarified in terms of actual loss. I chaired the steering group, which reported to Baker Tilly and Mr. Moloney that the figure was not substantiated in the way required by the terms of reference. We required to see actual loss. We were paying the company money to identify actual loss.

Did all of the committee agree that this should occur or was it just Mr. Fearn?

Mr. Dick Fearn

The steering group was party to it. I was chairing it and I asked the question.

Did any member of the steering committee disagree with Mr. Fearn?

Mr. Dick Fearn

No one told me of any disagreement at the time. I was specifically referring to the terms of reference. Baker Tilly explained that it had made——

Did the €8.7 million figure include any opportunity or imputed cost?

Mr. Dick Fearn

The €8.7 million figure was a projection, a "what if". What if what we identified was occurring across a wider sphere?

It was not an imputed figure.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I am not sure of the Deputy's meaning.

I have a copy of it. May I read it out?

Vice Chairman

I am sorry, but there is a vote.

Mr. Dick Fearn

May I clarify? I have explained that, with my steering committee, I met Baker Tilly and told it that I needed to see actual loss. I asked it to redo the work and, when producing its final draft, to give me actual loss. Baker Tilly did so and the figure in its final draft in June was different, as members are well aware.

A great deal of internal work has been done in terms of examining all of the areas. Mr. Gill can go into detail regarding the cost centres and our work. There is no basis for the estimate, forecast or whatever one wishes to call it of €8.7 million in May 2008. We have found no evidence to substantiate the figure. For this reason, we were strong on the point last time.

Vice Chairman

I must suspend the meeting, as there is a vote in the Dáil. There is nothing we can do about it, but we will return in seven or eight minutes.

Sitting suspended at 5.20 p.m. and resumed at 5.40 p.m.

Vice Chairman

I call on Senator Ross to continue.

I refer to the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon draft report of 2 May 2008 because it is important. It says that following a forensic review of highlighted areas of the company, the level of loss to the organisation was assessed at €8.671468 million. The report goes into detail of how it came to that figure, which was lost in the final report. The draft report refers to the terms of reference, which referred to the requirement to assess the risk of future costs to the company. That should be seen in light of what Mr. Fearn said. The report continues by noting that future projected expenditure has been requested from the company but not provided.

Deputy Frank Fahey resumed the Chair.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I want to clarify a point in response to this. The terms of reference clearly seek actual loss. The Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon review was thorough and detailed. Assessments and projections were not appropriate. We sought details of actual loss and the forecasts in the draft report were not substantiated by evidence of actual loss. When the steering committee discussed this with Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon it decided that a figure of actual loss was needed. That is why we brought in forensic accountants. We had done a lot of the work. Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon did not identify new areas of loss that we had not identified. Our internal audit work had identified these areas. Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon was to undertake detailed forensic work as forensic accountants. That was the purpose. The draft report projected a possible figure based on assessments rather than evidence and identification, which was not what we sought. After discussion with the steering committee we decided to go back to Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon and explain that we wanted a clear statement of actual loss identified. That is why the report produced in June was very different. That is what we were seeking and it is what we got.

In response to Mr. Fearn, I refer to the comment in the report to the effect that in the course of the review it became clear that the supporting documentation required to undertake a thorough forensic review does not exist. What does that mean?

Mr. Dick Fearn

The interim report clearly shows areas where we needed to strengthen the procurement process and the systems.

The documentation was not there.

Mr. Dick Fearn

They could not find the documentation and this was a major part of the recommendations in the interim report. Mr. Gill and the team have taken this on. Many actions have been taken since then to ensure a good documentary trail exists.

There was no supporting documentation because the accounts and the figures in this area were a shambles. They could not do it so they carried out an assessment, which was an extraordinarily responsible thing to do, because it was asked about future projections. Iarnród Éireann responded that it did not want that, it only wanted actual loss in a situation where it is almost impossible to produce much on actual loss because the documentation does not exist.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I do not accept that. A great deal of documentation was available to them. If the difference between the figures produced in May and June was that great there would have been some evidence but Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon could not produce any. In subsequent work nothing else has come to light. It was not a substantial basis for an actual loss figure. We stand by that.

Where was the documentation?

Mr. Dick Fearn

There is a lot of documentation in many areas but weaknesses exist in the systems that we have since identified. This was included in the interim report. No documentation was removed. Processes had not been completed thoroughly. Now they are; that is the difference.

Dr. John Lynch

It is important to realise that we found the problem through internal audit. We were rectifying the problem before Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon came in. It was not the fact that we were trying to hide anything or that documentation was not available. We were not happy and that is why we rectified this ourselves and brought in Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon to decide whether our accounting system was robust enough.

It cost €450,000 to do that.

Mr. Fearn said that no member of this team disagreed with the removal of the reference to €8.671468 million. Is Mr. Fearn absolutely clear on this? Was there total unanimity on this matter? The scale of unidentified loss is a key issue. Did no one disagree with removing the unidentified loss figure and to include only actual loss?

Mr. Dick Fearn

I want to answer Deputy O'Dowd's question by explaining how the steering committee works. The steering committee is composed of me, as chief executive, the director of human resources and the chief financial officer. These are two close colleagues and I. Like any steering committee we must have an open dialogue. We have an open dialogue because that is the way I manage. If members talk to any of those who report to me they will hear that I manage through open dialogue. Ultimately, one must make a decision. The group was concerned when we saw the draft report because it contained a figure for which we had not seen substantiation. We had a thorough discussion in the team and subsequently we agreed to take corporate responsibility and return to Mr. George Maloney at Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon, a meeting at which all three of us were present. We explained to Mr. Maloney that the report should set out substantiated actual loss in line with the terms of reference. That is what we did and that is how one works in an organisation with a group like that. I take responsibility. I had a free and frank debate with my colleagues and we took responsibility as a group and asked that question.

Was the group unanimous on this point?

Mr. Dick Fearn

All three of us as a group decided that we would go back to George Maloney.

I would like to tease out this issue further. Unfortunately, the trouble with the report is that page 9 is not page 9; it is badly presented and the pagination is very poor. The big picture is that the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report states that it is likely the company has experienced a significant unidentified loss. It put a value on it which CIE later removed from the report.

Mr. Dick Fearn

We rejected the basis for it and we asked Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon to review it.

This is the final report and it states that there is significant unidentified loss. It is benchmarked against international evidence and the report states that 5% of turnover of State companies is likely to be lost through fraud. What is 5% of Iarnród Éireann's annual turnover?

Mr. Dick Fearn

The report did not use 5% of our total turnover; it referred to specific costs——

What I am saying is that the benchmark is that organisations lose 5% of their annual revenue through fraud. What is 5% of Iarnród Éireann's annual turnover approximately? Is it €25 million, €40 million or €50 million? What is it likely to be?

Mr. Dick Fearn

It is——

Mr. Paul Kiely

I saw that 5% comment in the report. If one takes the turnover of CIE is €1.1 billion, assuming nothing is wrong in the pay area, and taking that out of the equation, we are still left with €520 million spent on goods and services. Just say, one added in €300 million, which is spent on capital, 5% of all of that suggests that someone is putting €800,000 a week into his or her back pocket and walking away. That is ludicrous——

Mr. Paul Kiely

——because evidence to that effect would be available.

That may be Mr. Kiely's view and I do not know have the knowledge he has but——

Mr. Paul Kiely

We are the ones who investigate it on a daily basis.

The report notes that a UK Government fraud survey mentions it occurs and the ACFE report also mentions 5%. Taking wages and capital out of the equation what is the most conservative estimate of what 5% would be?

Mr. Paul Kiely

It would be €500,000 a week.

That is approximately €26 million a year.

This is ridiculous. Clearly, this is a reference to revenue.

Deputy O'Dowd is in possession.

I am trying to clarify that regardless of what is used one would expect a figure of €25 million having read this and if it is the benchmark then €8 million is only a fraction of it. I cannot understand why the amount of €8 million is such a key issue when one would expect the amount to be much higher.

Mr. Barry Kenny

My recollection is that the 5% is very specific to the spending on the plant hire area; that is the area from which it was extrapolated. However, the catch-all figure of 5% is where there are concerns about procedures and non-compliance but no investigation. Our cost control and efficiency unit investigated the matter as did our internal audit unit, the Garda Síochána and Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon. No one was able to substantiate the higher figure. We were quite specific and the report referred to the historic loss. The terms of reference were with regard to actual loss and identifying areas of future risk on which recommendations were made.

The point is that the report states that given the systemic non-compliance with procedures and policies, the lack of internal controls, suspicions about several vendors' employees and findings in the system and forensic reviews it is likely that the company has experienced significant unidentified losses. I rest my case on this point. Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon included in the report a figure lower than I would have expected which Iarnród Éireann made it remove.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I will ask Mr. Gill to explain some of the detail he has been working on to help elucidate this point.

Mr. Ronan Gill

The benchmark figure quoted in the report, to which Deputy O'Dowd referred, is 5% of turnover. That is set in the context of a company which has no idea of the level of losses it faces. It is clear from the history of this that we had concerns about actual loss and we identified six areas which we brought to the attention of Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon, which was invited to produce a report, which was comprehensive on systems and recommendations and aligned to work being done in-house. It then carried out a further detailed forensic examination which did not identify any area of loss other than those we had brought to its attention. It is not reasonable to take a figure set in the context of a company that has no idea of the level of loss. We had an idea that there was an issue to be dealt with and we brought it to the attention of Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon. This is one report; we also have a number of other external professional advisers who have reported in the context of the large capital expenditure programme that the company has undergone in recent years. We have three reports that deal specifically with the systems and controls that the company operates to validate expenditure. Those reports are uniformly favourable and we have referred to them previously.

I do not want to labour this point but, with respect, the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report identifies page after page of breaches identified in the procurement process cycle and a number of risks were assessed as high. One of the problems is that the Comptroller and Auditor General does not audit Iarnród Éireann's accounts. Therefore, we do not have the transparency which we all want and we must go through it today in this manner. Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon identified significant shortcomings in the organisation and what the report is really saying is that a hell of a lot more is gone than is shown. I believe that and I do not accept——

Mr. Ronan Gill

On what basis?

I can read the report if the delegation wishes. Mr. Gill accepts that there are very significant areas where Iarnród Éireann had no control.

Mr. Ronan Gill

The terms of reference were for Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon to examine a period from 2004 to 2006. In completing its report it was asked to take into account work that Iarnród Éireann was doing on its systems. The first report by Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon contained 156 recommendations, 140 of which have been implemented. We accepted all of the recommendations——

Could Mr. Gill put a final figure on this? Anybody reading this that has experience of business or operating on a board will see the criticisms made about procurement are quite shocking. Many issues are mentioned and listed one after another they raise concerns which the committee has grave responsibility to follow. The Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report states that substantial cost savings potentially amounting to millions of euro could be achieved if the recommendations, such as those made on track expenditure by activity and location were implemented. A range of recommendations were made in response to each procurement deficiency identified. Has the accountant's office identified what savings were made by implementing the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report? Has a figure been put on that or was a cost-benefit analysis done?

Mr. Ronan Gill

There are 156 recommendations in the report.

Mr. Ronan Gill

They are substantially aligned with recommendations coming to us through our own internal works. Of those, 146 have been implemented. We should bear in mind that Baker Tilly did a very comprehensive report across seven distinct business units and there is a degree of duplication within the report. There were 156 recommendations but a number were replicated across the various business units. All have substantially been implemented bar three, and we have dealt with those by addressing the risk issue in a different way. We are getting a benefit at this time of better procurement in a leaner environment.

Will the delegates provide a figure, given that it cost €500,000 for the Baker Tilly work? What did that money buy us, in terms of reforms which have now been implemented?

Mr. Ronan Gill

Baker Tilly did a report on the recommendations and did an extensive amount of forensic work. There was a value to us in the forensic work in that it confirmed to us that the losses were not arising in other areas that we did not know about. We quibble on the quantum of loss and the way we dealt with the report internally was to say that we had 156 recommendations which we should deal with proactively. They align to what was coming out of our group internal audit process and our internal cost audit and efficiency unit processes.

The recommendations have been implemented. It is very difficult, with respect, to put a "what if?" scenario, which is to say that if we were doing what we are now doing three years ago, how much money would have been saved. If I wanted to build a house extension today I would save money against what I would have spent three years ago because the business environment is different.

A precise cost could be put on that.

Mr. Ronan Gill

With respect I do not think so. A cost difference could be formulated but it could be not be attributed to a change in the internal control environment.

Mr. Ronan Gill

It is likely that it could be attributed to a change in the external economic environment. We are achieving savings year-on-year and some of those savings come about because suppliers must sharpen their pencils in this environment. Some of them come through the procurement process as well so how much comes from each side is very difficult to say. Without doubt, the recommendations within the first report are sensible, by and large, and they have been substantially implemented. We will get the benefit of that in future.

The centralised procurement process is the key recommendation. Is there one?

Mr. Ronan Gill

Our overall procurement platform is SAP, so that IT system sits across the entire business.

I would like clarity on this issue. The procurement issues were many and——

Mr. Ronan Gill

In answer to the Deputy, there is a common procurement platform across all the businesses.

I was in possession. There were recent reports about the company and we are led to believe that the head of human resources has been suspended since 3 December. We have read about a large award at the Equality Tribunal to a former senior official at Irish Rail. There are some reports that another such case may come before the appropriate tribunals in the months ahead. I know some of the matters are sub judice and there was some activity in this regard in the courts, so the delegate may be restricted in what he is able to say. Has there been any allegation at any time that any officials of the company had a conflict of interest with a company involved in procurement with Irish Rail?

Mr. Dick Fearn

Let me clarify the issue. We have a senior official who has stood aside from his responsibilities at the present time as a direct result of the Equality Tribunal case. The Deputy is correct. We are taking the matter very seriously in the company. It has been reported in the papers and the members are aware of it. It is a serious equality case with what is currently a record award. We cannot go into the detail because we must consider as a company whether it is appropriate to appeal. The individual concerned, who has been asked to stand aside, has chosen to take legal action in his own defence. As a result we cannot comment further on that case. That is completely unrelated to the Baker Tilly work and the subject of today's meeting.

Was the management or the CIE board at any point investigating in response to allegations that somebody in the company might have had connections with any procurement company leading to a blatant conflict of interest such as we discussed in a earlier meeting with regard to another commercial body?

Mr. Dick Fearn

There was none at all. There has been much investigation into this area. As members are aware and we have said before, three individuals were dismissed and there was, in due course, action by the Garda in that area and so on. Those cases do not relate to the type of concerns reflected by the Deputy.

What is Lloyd's Engineering?

Mr. Dick Fearn

It is a company acting as a contractor to us. It is called Lloyd Rail rather than Lloyd's Engineering. It provides contractor services to us in the infrastructure area. For example, there may be big yellow plant machines on the tracks and we have technical names for them. One of them is called a tamping machine. Lloyd Rail has experts in the operation of those machines and on contract to us. They operate those machines for us on the track doing night maintenance.

To Mr. Fearn's knowledge, has there ever been an allegation or concerns from staff that there could be a connection between that company or any other such company and a conflict of interest with any member of staff?

Mr. Dick Fearn

None at all. That company employs some people who were previously Iarnród Éireann employees but that is not surprising as the people have the relevant skills. If a person believes he or she can do better in the private sector than in the public sector, he or she may choose to go that way. Some people employed by Lloyd Rail used to be employed by Iarnród Éireann but there is no conflict of interest. Lloyd Rail must tender for work and it may or may not get it as a result. There is no conflict of interest at all.

Mr. Fearn did not feel at any stage that any investigation was merited in response to an allegation. People on the committee may send e-mails and letters that are not signed for whatever reasons.

Mr. Dick Fearn

Yes.

There may be various claims.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I can say quite clearly that we have no basis for investigations into conflicts of interest with regard to that company.

The delegate may be constrained from answering the next question. Was there any role for the human resources manager with regard to any investigations such as came to light in the Baker Tilly work?

Mr. Dick Fearn

As I have already explained, the human resources manager was on my steering committee.

Is he the guy who is suspended?

Mr. Dick Fearn

Yes, but for completely separate reasons. The director of human resources is a big job in Iarnród Éireann. We employ 4,500 people in a variety of activities across many different functions so the director of human resources is a key player on my top team, as is the chief finance officer, the person dealing with operations, the chief mechanical engineer and so on.

The director of human resources was a key player in this work. There were some people issues involved. As I explained, we had three individuals who were subsequently dismissed from the company and so on. There is a human resource element to this.

The director of human resources was part of my steering committee but under completely separate circumstances, totally unrelated to Baker Tilly, we now have to manage within the company an issue where an Equality Tribunal decision has gone against the company. That is a major issue. As chief executive, I do not shy away from my responsibilities with regard to these matters. It is crucial that I take such a matter quite seriously.

That seems to be a very strong measure. Did Mr. Fearn feel that, as chief executive, he had not been kept in the loop sufficiently?

Mr. Dick Fearn

It relates to the handling of the case but at this point, because the individual concerned has chosen to take a legal route in his own defence and, as a company, we still have to decide on our route with regard to the Equality Tribunal decision and whether to appeal it, at this stage I cannot comment further. It might compromise both our situation with regard to the appeal or the situation regarding the legal challenge from the individual. Obviously, I wish to help the committee. I confirm it is the same individual and is completely unrelated to the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report but I cannot go into details concerning why because to do so would compromise the legal process.

Due process was not finished when the company suspended the man. Is that not the point?

Mr. Dick Fearn

Indeed. The man was asked to stand——

He was suspended without due process.

Mr. Dick Fearn

The man was asked to stand aside from his current responsibilities as director of human resources, pending investigation.

The process was not over. It seems to me——

Mr. Dick Fearn

The process is by no means over and that is why we cannot comment further.

I do not suggest that. The point is that the process concerning the award, whatever the amount, had not been completed. Mr. Fearn said as much. Therefore the company is removing a person who was a very close member of the team, without the process being finished.

Dr. John Lynch

We want to co-operate as much as possible with the committee. At this stage we cannot really go any further. When the process is finished we would be delighted to come back.

I wish to clarify this issue, namely, that this happened although the process had not finished.

Dr. John Lynch

No.

Theoretically, therefore, the company had other options with which to fight the award.

Dr. John Lynch

When one is running a company there are always options and one has to take one. The report came out and we had to take an action of some kind.

I do not have a problem with that. My point is that no matter what action the company took, the process had not been finished. The Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report came out and did not go to the board. I do not know for how long it was available before it went to the company's audit committee.

Mr. Dick Fearn

Mr. Kiely has explained throughout this committee meeting——

How long was that period? I merely point out that until the process finishes——

Mr. Paul Kiely

It is a matter of record. I think the date of the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report was 11 June. When I knew the report was out I called a meeting straight away which was held on 18 June.

Six months was mentioned at the last meeting.

Mr. Paul Kiely

That is not correct and the Chairman corrected it.

Who prepared the original report? Mr. Kiely said that on 11 October 2006 the audit committee was advised by the head of internal audit of the serious situation concerning the north wall of the sleepers and the related shenanigans. Who prepared the report in December 2006? Mr. Kiely merely said he requested a full report. Who gave him that report?

Mr. Paul Kiely

It came from internal audit.

Mr. Paul Kiely

It came from the head of the internal audit.

Let us move on from the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report. We shall have to wait for Mr. Moloney to attend before we get any further with that.

I am glad the chairman widened the issue with his opening remarks concerning the entirety of the CIE company and what it does. It is a procurement issue throughout. Under the Freedom of Information Act I received three reports, dated 2006, 2007and 2008, which, for some reason, I could not get from CIE. They report from the chairman to the Minister. Over the three years, the reports refer to a total of €25 million in breaches of procurement. They elicited a response from the Minister which indicates that all is not well with CIE.

I totally reject the chairman's emphasis in his initial remarks or that there was any suggestion that this committee was trying to blacken the workforce. Our questions are to the witnesses and concern their responsibility to the taxpayer. I do not doubt for a moment that 99% of the workforce in Iarnród Éireann and CIE are honest. I have no problem with that but have a big problem about the company's procurement policies and some of the activities that are going on. That is why the report is so important for Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon.

However, it appears to extend beyond that and I shall examine the details. The witnesses will know the details because they wrote the letter. The Minister replied on 5 November, stating he was concerned because the company had no business strategy plan framework, which is necessary. He expects to see in the next annual report a significant reduction, or complete elimination, of the number of reports of procurement exceptions, especially for high value contracts. He also expresses his dissatisfaction about the fact that the accounts were not submitted on time.

This is not an acceptable way for a management to run a semi-State company. There is a consistent pattern here of breaches of procurement being reported to the Minister but not being available to the public or the shareholders and not appearing in the annual reports. We do not know what is going on but we see the Minister gave the management a pretty good dressing down for having laid accounts but not having a five-year plan and for breaches of procurement he said should be eliminated. He covered those for 2006, 2007 and 2008. I do not know what they are like for 2009 but the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report states they are going on. This is a pattern. It does not make sense for the management to attend and paint for the committee a picture of a company that is way above board in these matters.

They might explain an additional point to me. The first report states that the board granted CIE Tours a derogation from the procurement policy. CIE can consult and is unlikely to be compliant in the hiring of consultants — an extraordinarily delicate area. One finds a lack of tendering in this regard. The group property department considers it inappropriate to go to tender for certain items, especially those regarding professional services. I will not read out the breaches listed but there are a great number of them for each year for consultancy services and various other areas. Sections of the company are not subject to procurement policy. There is a report that damns procurement policy and this appears likely to continue.

I shall ask specific questions. The final report mentions a specialist project related to advisory management services. A specialist adviser has been retained since 2005 to provide specialist engineering project management services without a competitive tender. Why is this and who was the person? Perhaps we might be told. That contract was terminated in February 2009 but the same person is now on a special purpose employment contract.

The company is driving a coach and four through these rules when it feels like it. The number of breaches has increased in the past year, rather than decreased. I believe it came to about €11 million last year. In addition, I believe the rule applies only to contracts worth €50,000 or more.

The Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report has revealed an extraordinary amount of funny business. Certain people in certain departments have brought down the value of certain procurement contracts below €50,000 rather than aggregate them so that they do not come under the guidelines. I trust I have made clear my meaning and, if not, please ask me. That is the first area and it is a serious matter.

The second matter relates to a more specific question. We are not told anything in these accounts. For some reason, there is no reference in the accounts to the €450,000 to which the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report refers. It does not appear anywhere and there is no reference to the costs or anything else. If things are going so well, will the delegation inform the committee of the position with regard to a company called Greyhound Waste? What happened in that case?

Dr. John Lynch

Does the Senator wish to finish off such that we can reply in full?

I am sorry I did not hear. Does the delegation wish for me to finish?

Dr. John Lynch

It would be preferable such that we can answer all the questions together.

I do not wish to put too many. The Greyhound Waste situation will be my final question in this series. I have others but I do not wish to hog the meeting and I realise other people wish to ask questions. Was the situation in respect of Greyhound Waste healthy?

Dr. John Lynch

Before that, Deputy, or Senator, rather——

That is okay. Promotion is something to which I aspire.

He tried to get elected to the House on several occasions.

He would top the poll in any constituency except Louth.

Dr. John Lynch

First of all, I did not widen the discussion through my statement. I was referring entirely to Iarnród Éireann. However, before we discuss the area of procurement, the details of which I gave the Minister, the committee should understand there are various types of procurement. For example, there may be an urgency in some cases. In two years' time we may be discussing the fact that there was no tender for the Malahide viaduct. We decided very quickly on the best firm to get, whether it could do the work quickly and whether it would fit our timescale. That is a particular area of procurement. Procurement does not mean fraud and dishonesty all the time. It is simply rules and people may have taken shortcuts. It is possible to have a situation where there is a single supplier. For instance, if we buy Volvo equipment, generally we must buy Volvo spare parts. That is simply the way it goes for buses. Similarly, if one buys trains from Korea and they use a Siemens power pack, we must buy Siemens parts.

There are also proprietary goods. Reference to expert services was made and there has been an expansion in this area. Let us bear in mind that up to 2001 this company received £16 million for capital expenditure during a period of 13 years. Suddenly, there was an explosion and we needed as many experts as we could get immediately. The person to whom I referred is an expert on operations. The only reason the matter was transferred to another area was to tidy it up from a procurement viewpoint. We have an expert on signals and communications and we were delighted to get that expert. As it happened, he was a retired managing director of a Hong Kong railway company and was regarded as the expert on signals. Thankfully, he retired to Cork and we were able to get our hands on him as an expert.

Is it possible to get the names of these people?

Dr. John Lynch

Yes, we can get the names. Also, a problem may occur when there is an extension or roll-over of existing contracts. For whatever reason, procurement might suggest we should have gone to tender but we did not and it was rolled over. A mistake was made and that was reported. Everything reported to the Minister has an explanation and has been rectified. I have a document which shows everything has been rectified. It explains to the Minister that these items of procurement were not done in the way set procedures should be, but this does not mean there was fraud or dishonesty. It falls within the categories I have explained, of which there are five.

I replied to the Minister and naturally he was not satisfied because of various things. However, we have tightened up all of these things and there will always be a case to answer. In two years' time I will try to report on the Malahide viaduct situation and why I decided it was an urgent matter. It is important when one reads of these things that it is not seen as dishonesty of fraud of any description.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I refer to Greyhound Waste. As a railway company, one of the services we need to contract out relates to the removal of waste. Cleaning is a significant issue at stations and depots and so on. We go to tender regularly and this is an appropriate way to do business. Various firms which can provide such services are in the market nowadays. Two years ago when we tendered, Greyhound Waste won the contract.

Once we award a contract we then manage it. We do not simply turn and allow it to tick away. If we have any concerns during the provision of a contract or about a supplier providing a service to us on contract, we take up any such concerns with the contractor. We had some serious concerns with Greyhound Waste. Over time, we believed the services for which we were being charged may not have been provided comprehensively. We challenged the company in great detail. As any good management team should, we went through what had been invoiced and provided very carefully. In due course, we agreed with Greyhound Waste that it owed us money back. Money was repaid from Greyhound Waste. We informed the company we had no alternative but to re-tender the contract. We allowed Greyhound Waste to tender again. It had paid money back and straightened up the account. However, the next time around the company did not win the contract and at present Greyhound Waste does not supply services to us. Another company won the contract last time around. In fact, that was a good example of the way management should act when contracting out services through monitoring, managing and identifying issues as they arise and dealing with them. It was a good example of our company so doing.

Was the settlement a seven figure sum? Was it more than €1 million?

Mr. Dick Fearn

No.

How much was it?

Mr. Dick Fearn

I do not have the figures in front of me.

Was it not a large sum?

Mr. Dick Fearn

It was a large sum.

Surely, it is the type of figure Mr. Fearn ought to remember.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I do not have it and I am not going to guess it.

This is quite extraordinary. I have no wish to be irritating, but when the committee calls for figures, we do not get them. This is the case continually. The company did not have the figure the last time in the case of the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report. It is astonishing.

Mr. Dick Fearn

Through the Chair, I did not anticipate answering questions tonight about the Greyhound Waste management contract. Had I anticipated answering such questions I would have had the figure, but I do not have it.

What was the Senator's estimate of the figure?

Is it seven figures?

Mr. Dick Fearn

I do not have the figure in front of me, but it was not in excess of €1 million.

Was it close to that figure?

Is it close to it? This is very important. We must get to these figures.

To be helpful, I suggest Mr. Fearn provides the information to the Senator at a later stage. Clearly, he does not have the information.

The matter the Senator has raised is a cause of concern. A company found to have acted in the way Mr. Fearn described was brought back in to tender again. That is most unusual.

Mr. Dick Fearn

No. I do not think that is correct. If we found something inappropriate and if there were some breach or if we had to report a matter to the Garda, then there would be no question of the company being asked to tender again. We found contractual matters which were wrong. Basically, the money charged did not tally with the actual work done.

That is quite serious.

Mr. Dick Fearn

It is serious but is it not good that we identified that and did something about it? If we had sat back as a management team, we would have blindly carried on paying and have done nothing about it. That was the opposite of what we did.

Were Iarnród Éireann getting bogus invoices?

Mr. Dick Fearn

I cannot use the word "bogus" but through good management we identified discrepancies between the amount invoiced and the actual work done——

Mr. Dick Fearn

No, it was not fraud. We had no evidence to believe that someone was deliberately doing it. Sometimes in business, one will find that if one has a good process for checking invoices against work done, one might well find errors. Sometimes they might be quite serious errors. One cannot immediately, however, jump to the conclusion that someone is doing it in a fraudulent way.

On a point of information, the company in question has tenders for household waste collection with Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council and there is grave dissatisfaction with it. Is Mr. Fearn saying collections were not made in some stations and areas or, as Senator Ross fears, there was some sort of fraud taking place?

Mr. Dick Fearn

No. What I am saying is that there were discrepancies relating to the amount of material picked up at locations, whether pick-ups were done routinely and so on. We believed that in some of the invoicing there were inaccuracies and errors. We believed, therefore, money needed to be refunded to Iarnród Éireann. We did that diligently. We sat down with the management of Greyhound Waste and, in due course, money was refunded to Iarnród Éireann. We did not have evidence of fraud and, therefore, did not go to the Garda.

However, we did say to Greyhound Waste that as a result of our dissatisfaction, we had no alternative but to re-tender the contract. In such circumstances, it would be a breach of procurement law if one has no basis to bar a company. As the committee will be aware, in European procurement law one cannot bar companies from tendering just because there was some discrepancy with them in the past. We did re-tender but Greyhound Waste did not win it.

With all due respect, Iarnród Éireann is a large organisation. The point Senator Ross is getting at is the procurement and tendering process must be above aboard and watertight. If discrepancies of any type were found with a supplier's invoices, I would have expected Iarnród Éireann to debar the supplier from tendering again.

Mr. Dick Fearn

Our legal advisers informed us we could not do that.

What if Iarnród Éireann found it necessary to do it in the first place?

The company could do the same again.

There must be some objective criteria. My understanding of procurement procedures is that there are objective criteria against which every company is measured. There is no reason to suggest a company would fall short in some way. One cannot arbitrarily decide to exclude a company.

Surely, if Iarnród Éireann were being ripped off in some shape or other by a company, it would be hardly advisable to bring the same company into a re-tendering process.

This is a joke.

Mr. Dick Fearn

The Chairman used a term that I have not used. The term I used was "discrepancies" between the actual work carried out and the invoices. It was because of the very thorough management of our systems that we identified that.

That is good.

Mr. Dick Fearn

We then sat down with the management of the company in question and had the moneys refunded to Iarnród Éireann. It is not a bad example but a good one of proper contract management.

Within the law, we then re-tendered. The company in question was not successful in the next round. We are not faced with the issue that the Chairman said we could potentially have been. We now have a good contractor which is doing an excellent job for us.

Thank God for that.

The management should be complimented on its diligence in this case.

It is very important we get that figure. I think it is a large figure but I am sure Mr. Fearn cannot remember the exact amount.

Mr. Dick Fearn

I do not have the exact amount to hand.

I suspect it is €1 million. What is Iarnród Éireann's relationship like with KN Network Services?

Mr. Dick Fearn

It has been a supplier to Iarnród Éireann for some time.

Was it mentioned in the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report?

Mr. Dick Fearn

The company was mentioned in the report in that it was identified. However, I must emphasise Iarnród Éireann has no basis for saying that KN Network Services has been engaged in inappropriate or fraudulent activities against it.

There was a basis for an investigation which has been carried out. Again, Mr. Ronan Gill can talk in more detail about this. It was mentioned in the report in the sense that there was a basis for investigation. However, we have no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of KN Network Services.

Was KN Network Services not favourably mentioned in the report?

Mr. Dick Fearn

Most of the companies in the report were not mentioned favourably. If a company were in the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report, it was not favourably mentioned.

Was KN Network Services part of the actual loss?

Mr. Dick Fearn

Yes, it was part of Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon's estimate of actual loss.

In what sense?

Mr. Dick Fearn

Could I ask Mr. Ronan Gill to be specific on this item?

Dr. John Lynch

Chairman, I have a difficulty with this. I want it that we are as open as much as is possible with the committee. However, we are straying into areas of sensitive commercial information. Mr. Gill will tell the committee about KN Network Services. However, we deal with the company every day and, so far, we have not found it to be fraudulent or dishonest in its dealings.

Can we see how KN Network Services came into the actual loss?

An important role of this committee is that of scrutiny and oversight.

Dr. John Lynch

I have no problem with that.

The committee must be in a position, in Iarnród Éireann's interests as well everyone else's, to find information necessary to establish proper procedures are followed and there is no unacceptable activity.

Dr. John Lynch

I have no problem with that.

The committee wants answers to the questions that Senator Ross is asking. It will also want follow-up answers from Mr. Fearn about the discrepancies with Greyhound Waste. It is a protection for Iarnród Éireann that no customer or client of it can expect to get away with anything untoward. I call on Mr. Gill.

Mr. Ronan Gill

I will attempt to answer the question as fully as I can as my comments to the committee are not privileged. The committee has had the opportunity to read the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report. It referred to non-compliance with the framework agreement and the loss of grant aid. Iarnród Éireann is primarily involved in those two areas.

At the previous hearing on 27 October, I explained to the committee that the loss of grant aid was not an actual loss to Iarnród Éireann. KN Network Services supplied services with regard to the installation of masts. The masts exist, are in place and the signalling projects were completed on time and below budget. While this was included in Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon's assessment of loss, the loss related to an EU grant claim and dealt with a procurement issue. It was not a loss in the context of fraud or loss of assets to the company.

The other substantial issue dealt with in the Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon report was the non-compliance with the framework agreement. It ascribed a loss to it which the committee has had the benefit of reading so I will not repeat it. However, the loss was calculated on a forecast of future business and an estimated value of an increase in rate. On both counts, the report was flawed.

The weighted average increase in the rate is not as stated in the report. The quantum of business being done is not at the level included in the report; as a result, the loss is commercial. It does not relate to fraud, theft or collusion. It could possibly be attributed as a commercial loss of less than €50,000, as can be inferred from point No. 4 in the Baker Tilly report. These are sensitive issues. There are commercial negotiations in which I would like to engage to take these things into account. I do not want to go too far but will answer in more detail, if pressed.

There was an issue that we brought to Baker Tilly's attention. The loss was estimated based on a forecast of business which was substantial to generate the loss to the extent it did. We did not do that level of business with KN Networks in the period since. I do not want to get into a discussion of quantums of business we give to one company over another.

I understand the sensitivities, but there is a figure of €1.6 million for its contribution to the actual loss, the figure Irish Rail prefers to talk about out of a total figure of €2.5 million. That is gigantic. There is an extensive amount in the draft report devoted to KN Networks. Does Irish Rail reject the finding of Baker? Does it continue to employ KN Networks as a client?

Mr. Ronan Gill

Reference was made to a particular figure in the Baker Tilly report. That number is made up of two amounts — one relates to a loss of EU grant aid, which does not represent a loss to the company. Using a word such as "reject" would be emotive.

Does Mr. Gill accept it?

Mr. Ronan Gill

There is a technical issue with regard to whether we had the paper work done to a sufficient level for us to meet an EU grant application. That is normal business.

I referred to independent reviews of our grant claiming processes. Within our own grant claiming processes we identified the procurement issue related to the radio masts and on that basis did not submit a claim to the European Union. The radio masts were built as part of two distinct projects which were completed on time and within budget. The radio masts expenditure as part of these two projects was in the order of 2% and two and a bit per cent, respectively. KN Networks did the work which was documented and the invoices are properly supported in terms of the work done. There are as-built drawings for the locations where it did the work which represented value for money by reference to the initial quotations secured.

The second issue relates to the framework agreement. The way Baker Tilly assessed the loss was by reference to a forecast of future business. The level of business being done with KN Networks under that arrangement is significantly less. That is not to say I want to reject Baker Tilly; Baker Tilly took some of the information we had provided, made an assessment based on a particular value, the initial value within the original tendering framework. This had gone through the formal tendering process in respect of contract labour. We had included an estimate of the business in that process, a share of which went to KN Networks and others to other companies. Based on that estimated value of work, Baker Tilly made an assessment of loss. The real loss from the date of the agreement until now is less than €50,000. That is a fact.

The report does not appear consistent with what Mr. Gill is saying. I find this is turning into a fiasco. In the report that Mr. Gill rejects there is a figure of €8.7 million. It is being taken out and now Mr. Gill is undermining the figure of €2.4 million by saying it is not realistic because the sum of €1.5 million is questionable. For what was the figure of €450,000 paid?

The report mentions unutilised purchase orders and concerns KN Networks. It states that during the examination it found a substantial number of purchase orders had been set up on the system that had not been fully utilised. The remaining balance is left open and available for use. The report notes this happened primarily for purchase orders set up with KN Networks to a total of €32 million between 2004 and April 2008. Goods receipts set up for the same period total €24 million. This leaves a difference of €8 million, a substantial percentage of which is open and available for use. There is evidence of old purchase orders being used to charge in respect of current work and of little or no tracking of whether the expenditure being put through these purchase orders on the system relates to the original purchase orders set up. This can lead to abuse of the procurement process. That is a worrying paragraph.

Mr. Ronan Gill

Baker Tilly made a number of recommendations, one of which deals specifically with the issue of unutilised purchase orders. This is an issue we recognised in our own work and it comes through in Baker Tilly's work because Baker Tilly assessed a loss based on a high number within a purchase order or an estimated purchase order value.

We have undertaken a comprehensive review of open purchase orders to identify and close out utilised purchase orders and balances on them. Reports have been developed that provide an aged analysis of open plant hire and contract labour orders which are contained within the periodic reports. The aged analysis means that if a purchase order was created five months ago and there is an unutilised element, it shows in a column entitled "five months old". We progressively clear out, as it moves across the page from left to right. As we move through each month, reports are issued and we would expect to see the aged analysis of purchase orders reduce. That is the metric we manage. There will be cases in which there are legitimate disputes and others in which there are good reasons such as contract retention that will mean there must be open purchase orders. We deal with that issue within the context of the recommendations Baker Tilly has provided for us and have acted on them. We went through a comprehensive process earlier this year when we closed out a large number of old purchase orders. We now periodically review existing ageing analyses on commitments.

It is not the case that we have rejected the Baker Tilly report; it is another tool that assists us in driving the business forward. We have put in front of Baker Tilly information that has come to us through our own internal control processes. We asked it to carry out a full review of the business, to bring forward recommendations on system improvements we could adopt and, in parallel, to carry out a full forensic review. The system recommendations have been accepted and substantially implemented. The forensic review did not identify any areas other than those we have brought to its attention. That is not to say the work Baker Tilly did was of no value to us. That is the fact of the matter — Baker Tilly carried out a detailed forensic review in which it looked at a large number of suppliers and raised issues about some of them. Any of the issues raised had been raised by Irish Rail during this process. Baker Tilly made reference to the fact there had been a full and frank disclosure of information. It met with a large number of people throughout the organisation across a large number of business units, and some of that information is reflected in the report. That is the position. It is another tool. It is the same as some other reports.

Senator Ross has asked for Baker Tilly representatives to come before the committee and he will have an opportunity to talk to them about that.

This is about exercises, accountability and transparency. I want to raise a major issue with CIE. I requested a copy of a referenced report in the Baker Tilly report. It is appendix 2 at the back of the documentation. It relates to an annual internal audit report of 2007 and states that significant issues were raised in that report. Baker Tilly is aware of the content of that. I asked for and was refused a copy of that annual internal audit report of 2007. It relates specifically to the chief mechanical engineer's, CME, section. I want to be clear about this. The representatives have answered our questions today and we will consider those answers but I cannot understand the reason they would refuse me, and the committee, which also requested it, a copy of that report. What is their position on that report now?

Dr. John Lynch

An internal audit report is what it states; it is internal.

It is an annual internal audit report.

Dr. John Lynch

Yes. The internal audit is an ongoing process and publication would not be helpful for their particular work. In addition, it also includes commercially sensitive information. I am aware it refers to the CME section and, to be helpful, I requested that information so that I could give it to the Deputy. They cover the broad areas in 2006 of motive power, carriage and wagon shops. The issues raised were an improvement in the tendering process, as I stated, the last five areas of tendering, the administration of contracts in Drogheda and a better recording system in Drogheda in regard to the maintenance history of individual engines. The report stated that where contracts are due for retendering, they should have sufficient time to avoid giving extensions, which was one of the five elements in procurement. There was no hint of any fraud or dishonesty. It was non-compliance with procurement that they should have done. I advised the Minister in my letter to him, and there is no difficulty in providing the Deputy with that information.

In my opinion the credibility of this organisation rests on accountability through the Oireachtas. I got the same response, and I am not addressing the chairman of CIE but Mr. Kenny, and it is a useful direct form of communication, when I requested the Baker Tilly report. We eventually got the Baker Tilly report. As a member of this committee I am asking for a copy of that report. He can redact or remove the names of the companies. I have no problem with that, but I want to see a copy of that report and I believe the committee should demand it because it is referred to as being significant. I do not believe a case can be made for it not being given to me, notwithstanding what Dr. Lynch said.

A vote has been called. We must take cognisance of what the chairman has said.

We do not want to see the commercial information. We do not want to know the names of the companies. We do not want to know any of that information. That is not relevant.

Dr. John Lynch

Chairman, it is a difficult when we are talking about an internal audit report——

Can I clarify the point? It is not an internal audit——

Can I make the point——

Deputy O'Dowd is speaking.

It is an annual internal audit report. It is not a specific report.

Chairman, can I make the point——

Allow the chairman respond.

I am not getting a chance——

Allow the chairman respond and the Deputy can make his point then.

I cannot. A vote has been called.

Dr. John Lynch

It is an internal audit report. Organisations cannot be run having internal audit reports available publicly. I do not want to be seen to be curmudgeonly or contrary in any way in regard to this committee. Rather than give the Deputy the report I am willing to have somebody take him or the committee members through it in private but there is a great deal of sensitive information in it. An organisation cannot be run if its internal audit function is——

It is a fair compromise that members of the committee will be given an opportunity to go through the report in private.

Is it possible to benchmark the company in terms of cost control against foreign operators, particularly those that have a large subsidy? I understand Iarnród Éireann's subsidy is 42% or 45% but it would be a great deal lower than that of many other large railway companies in Europe. As I said recently to Mr. Kenny, I was on----

We will ask the representatives to come back to us with that.

Yes, because one of the difficulties for us is that it is a commercial body and in terms of invigilating a commercial body, it is different from the work of the PAC.

We will bring the meeting to a close because a vote has been called. I thank the representatives of Iarnród Éireann and CIE. We believe it is important that the issues which are of concern to our members should be debated openly, and we appreciate their co-operation. If other issues arise when the Baker Tilly report has been seen we will invite the representatives to come before the committee in the new year.

And I will get the Greyhound Waste figure——

That is guaranteed because I did not get the figure I requested on the last occasion.

We wish all the representatives a happy Christmas.

The joint committee adjourned at 7 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 13 January 2010.
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