Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 2010

Taxi Industry: Discussion

The next item on the agenda is a discussion with representatives of the taxi industry. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that civil servants, while giving evidence to the committee, may not question or express an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives or produce or send to the committee any document in which a civil servant or a member of the Defence Forces or the Garda Síochána questions or expresses an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, the witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Aidan Moore, president of the National Taxi Drivers Union, Mr. Jerry Brennan from the taxi branch of SIPTU, Mr. Declan McEntee, chairman of the Galway Taxi Association, and various other representatives of taxi organisations in the Gallery. I also welcome Mr. Norman Gillanders, assistant secretary at the Revenue Commissioners, and Mr. Ciaran Lawler and Ms Miriam Fanning from the Department of Social Protection. We did not intend to have them make any contribution today but if they wish to do so, they are more than welcome. The intention was that they would attend to hear what the taxi representatives had to say but, as I said, if they wish to make any comment, they may do so.

Before I take short presentations from the three groups I will put this meeting in context. We had a number of requests from various taxi organisations to return to the committee, especially following the report that was issued by the Commission for Taxi Regulation. We had also arranged for representatives of the National Transport Authority to appear again before the committee to discuss its takeover of the office and role of the taxi regulator, which is provided for in the National Transport Authority legislation. In particular, we were anxious for the authority to tell us the date on which it would assume responsibility for taxi regulation. However, because of holidays and one thing and another it was not possible for its representatives to be here today and therefore we will invite them to appear again before the committee to respond to issues raised by today's witnesses.

Mr. Aidan Moore

I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Jerry Brennan, to make the presentation. I had to make my apologies earlier in the week as I have a particularly bad cold and I was afraid my voice would not last.

That is all right.

Mr. Aidan Moore

With that, I will hand over to Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

I thank the Chairman and committee members for the invitation to address the committee on the subjects of the taxi industry, the problems in the industry and the route to resolving the difficulties facing taxi drivers. We look forward to participation and engagement with the National Transport Authority and hope to identify and resolve these issues.

We acknowledge the positive work carried out by the Chairman and committee over recent years. The recommendations put forward by the committee were greatly supported by the taxi industry but, regrettably, they have not been adopted. The committee's recommendations were favoured by the Irish Taxi Council over the changes brought about by the Commission for Taxi Regulation subsequent to the Goodbody report. The report itself was found by this committee to be highly questionable, yet it has been used as a basis for the implementation of current and imminent change in the industry. All these changes have significant cost implications for taxi drivers and their dependants.

While every other sector is reducing costs, the Commission on Taxi Regulation is determined, by way of legislation and regulation, to increase taxi drivers' costs. Policies regarding vehicle age and other issues, which were initiated during the height of our economic boom and were at that time viewed as harsh and unnecessary, are now seen as economically impossible to achieve. The enormous stress caused by these demands has brought drivers to breaking point and beyond, as we have all sadly witnessed over recent days and months. Despite our efforts and those of this committee, the regulator appears oblivious to the horrific effects of its decisions.

We do not accept the current mantra on standards which the commission constantly uses to qualify the situation. It is a matter of record that the industry has always supported safety measures and requirements. All vehicles must undergo an annual roadworthiness test and suitability test. Since January 2010 the efficient one-stop shop provided through the NCT centres for vehicle testing and suitability has been replaced, and the process now involves visiting two separate centres, doubling the time and effort required by this simple process. This leads to further expense for drivers due to the additional down-time involved.

Currently, there is a requirement to sit a pass-or-fail skills test. Initially we were informed by the commission that the cost of this exam would be met by its office. However, this has now been changed and we are informed that as of January 2011, drivers must pay a fee of €85 for the test and any subsequent sittings if they fail. The Irish Taxi Council is vehemently opposed to the requirement for licence holders to sit a pass-or-fail test for a licence they already legally hold. We are not opposed to continual professional development by way of seminars provided by the commission, as is the case in other occupations.

When questioned regarding industry related decisions, the commission constantly refers to the consultation process and submissions sought from stakeholders. However, it is our experience as representatives that the concerns of our members and our submissions on their behalf are generally ignored. Many examples of this can be provided, including in the areas of vehicle identification and in-car information stickers. This causes further frustration and stress for service providers who genuinely feel they have no input into the decision-making process surrounding their industry.

To make matters worse, as workers we feel completely marginalised by the fact that we are denied access to any of the institutions provided by the State to resolve workers' issues. We have no access to the rights commissioner service, the Labour Relations Commission, the Labour Court or the National Employment Rights Authority. In early 2006 we identified that the Taxi Regulation Act 2003 does not support any mechanism to appeal industry-based decisions made by the commission and we entered into talks with the Department of Transport to resolve this anomaly. We were informed that this could only be done within the context of the process to improve existing appeals procedures available to other regulated bodies which was being carried out by the Office of the Taoiseach. We were led to believe that the process would provide a solution to our needs. However, this process culminated in October 2009 and the decision by Government was to maintain the status quo, in effect leaving us where we began in September 2006. It is morally unjustified that this situation continues today. It leaves taxi drivers with no other option but to highlight their plight by way of public protest. It goes without saying that where no orderly process is provided by the State, we are left with disorder.

We would like to highlight the continuing very unsafe practice of double jobbing. It is common practice that people in full employment are issued with and have taxi licences renewed despite the fact that this goes against the spirit of the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997. It would also appear that the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and the Commission for Taxi Regulation are diametrically opposed on this issue. The RSA runs a very worthy road safety campaign which we support in terms of highlighting the dangers of driver fatigue, while the Commission for Taxi Regulation encourages part-time or double jobbing in our industry. Both of these bodies take direction from the Department of Transport. I once again express our gratitude for today's opportunity and we look forward to the hope of positive engagement with the National Transport Authority.

I now call on Mr. Declan McEntee.

Mr. Declan McEntee

I represent the Galway Taxi Association. I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today about the issues facing the taxi industry in Galway. I will start by stating the obvious, namely, that there are too many taxis in Galway city. As the committee is aware, Galway is a medieval city with narrow one-way streets that on most nights of the week are clogged with taxis. There are insufficient rank spaces in areas where they are most needed. In an effort to help the industry Galway City Council supplied the city with new rank spaces but the geography of the city is making it impossible to have spaces in the required areas. The knock-on effect of this is total disarray on the streets of Galway, making it impossible for the emergency services, the public and working taxi drivers alike to get around.

The Galway Taxi Association believes that there is a more serious issue, that is, the operation of illegal taxis and illegal taxi drivers. We believe this is due to the lack of enforcement of the current regulations by the taxi regulator's office. It is important that regional officers are appointed to enforce these rules or, alternatively, that the Garda is given responsibility once again for the enforcement of regulations.

While the taxi regulator is responsible for the issuing of all taxi licences nationally, she has abdicated all responsibility towards enforcing the rules she has laid down. The irregular visitation of the regulator's officers in Galway is not good enough and the nine officers based in Dublin do nothing to enforce the rules locally. The regulator seems quite happy to pass on the buck on the policing issue to the Garda. In Galway the Garda does its best, but it has manpower and budgetary restraints and its aim is to save lives through breathalysing and speed checks, so it is unfair to load it with this issue as well.

Some of the people who have entered the business in the recent past are behaving in an outlandish fashion with no regard for the rules or ethics of the industry. This is causing untold stress and strain to the people who have always worked within the rules. Recent regulation has done nothing to instil good practice with new entrants to the business. The regulator must work more closely with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection to ensure that all people involved in the industry are doing so legally and are above board.

The Galway Taxi Association believes that recognition and support must be given to the full-time taxi drivers within the industry whose incomes have been eroded by people coming into the business who are working less than the regulatory 40 hours per week. This is forcing full-time taxi drivers to work excessive hours to try to maintain a decent income to sustain their families in these trying times. It is also leading to a very serious health and safety issue for persons who have no other option but to engage in these long hours.

The regulator should be compelled to purchase licences from people who wish to leave the business, thus going some way towards decreasing the amount of taxis in an over-supplied market. At the current time people who wish to exit the industry for different reasons must sell on their licences. Since the appointment of the present regulator, she has done nothing to improve the working conditions for the 15,000 to 20,000 people who are active in our industry. In fact, she has made matters worse. It is time to call a halt to this lunacy. If the workers in Bus Éireann, Aer Lingus, An Post or any other large organisation were treated like this and their incomes destroyed, there would be uproar in the national press and Dáil Éireann.

I ask, rather I plead, with the Chairman and the committee, comprising our elected representatives, to sort out this mess. We heard on "Liveline" last week a small sample of tragedies that are occurring in our industry and the pain and suffering it is causing to our families. All we want is fair play and the right to make a decent living. I thank the committee for its time and it is to be hoped with its help we may see some light at the end of this tunnel in which we find ourselves.

I ask members to concentrate in the early questioning on the issue of double jobbing and fraudulent behaviour in the industry in light of the fact that some officials are in attendance. We can move on to the other issues at a later stage. Will the taxi representatives spell out for the committee the exact situation which pertains with regard to the number of people employed in a part-time capacity in the business who are also PAYE workers in other occupations? We constantly hear that people are engaged in the taxi industry and are also in receipt of social welfare. Will the delegates give the committee some further detail on that issue? We always ask the question and the regulator always asks for evidence of the situation.

One of the recommendations we have made to the new National Transport Authority is that the identification card which each taxi driver will have would indicate his or her PPS number and whether he or she is a PAYE worker. That would be one way PAYE workers who work part-time in the industry could be identified. A preventative approach could be taken. If a person is a PAYE worker, it is easy for a regulator, having established that fact, to check with the Revenue Commissioners whether he or she is making returns on his or her income from driving a taxi. When the Revenue Commissioners appear before the committee, we will ask them how many people declare income from taxi driving in addition to income from another occupation. Will the delegates spell out in more detail what they call double jobbing?

We constantly get the complaint that full-time taxi drivers find it very difficult because others are entering the industry on a part-time basis. We received legal advice that there is nothing anyone can do about part-time workers. It is their right to work in another industry if they want to do so and no one is denying them that right. The delegates' view is that many such people come out at weekends and do not pay tax or are in receipt of social welfare and also drive taxis. I would like the delegates to comment on those issues.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

We have members who have worked all their lives in the industry who have reached a point where their children are reared and their mortgages are paid and who provide a part-time service. I refer to double jobbing which flies in the face of the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997. In effect, the Act was introduced by Europe to protect workers from unscrupulous employers. It prescribes a 48-hour week over a 17-week period.

I do not accept that there is nothing that can be done. The 2005 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act refers to the self-employed who must consider themselves to be both employer and employee and in that status they are legally obliged to inform their other employer of any work they are carrying out or any other form of employment.

Health and safety legislation is a double-edged sword. I do not believe the Commission for Taxi Regulation should issue licences under direction from the Department of Transport to people who are, without doubt, in a state of fatigue. They have worked 40 to 48 hours in their full, fixed employment. They are then issued a licence by the Department of Transport or by one of the offices under the direction of that Department to provide a public service to the members, me or any other citizen who is responsible enough to leave their car at home when going out for an evening, but they might be getting into a car with someone who is fatigued. That person, in turn, returns to their fixed employment not having availed of their rest period which they are required to do under the Act.

I do not believe there is nothing that can be done. Under section 34 of the Act the commission has the right to determine working hours. That issue has been raised in the past. Last month, the European Commission refused self-employed truck drivers a derogation from the 1997 Act. They have been told that, as self-employed truck drivers, they must come under the Act and that they cannot work more than 60 hours.

Our perspective on that is that it is a dangerous practice. If I go out for an evening and act responsibly by leaving my vehicle at home and not drinking and driving or driving in a state of fatigue, I do not want then to put myself at the mercy of someone who is fatigued because he or she is working in full employment. Also, he or she might return to work the following day where he or she might operate machinery and put his or her fellow employees at risk. The 2005 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act changes that position, and perhaps we should revisit that.

I will allow Mr. McEntee come in first, followed by Mr. Gillanders.

Mr. Declan McEntee

A number of issues arise. Currently, if a person owns a taxi, he or she must renew his or her licence every year and provide a tax clearance certificate to do so. However, if a driver is not a licence holder but a taxi PSV holder, he or she has only to renew his or her licence every five years, at which time he or she must produce his or her tax clearance certificate. Anyone can go to the tax office and get a tax clearance certificate as long as his or her tax affairs are in order. He or she has five years before he or she is brought into question again. That must be changed.

The 40 hours per week is the number of hours a person must be available to work when they apply for a taxi licence. As the gentleman said earlier, if someone is working in another company, they are committing themselves to working 40 hours in a second job because it states that the minimum number of hours to be available is 40.

On the social welfare aspect, a question was asked whether we have proof of that. All I can say is that following consultation with the traffic corps in Galway about six weeks ago, they agreed to do a spot check on taxis at 9 o'clock on a Saturday night in Galway. It was very hush hush. They did not tell anyone they intended to do it. They discussed it with me. They blocked off the city centre and all the roads leading into it. Within 15 minutes, the number of cars that disappeared off the streets of Galway was unreal. There were spaces available in the two main taxi ranks in Galway. Everyone was going around that night saying they had a great night because the gardaí put the wind up them and they disappeared.

Within ten minutes of the regulator being in Galway, however, the phones are working and they rarely get a hit on anyone because they are forewarned. As soon as one person sees the regulator at a taxi rank, the phones are ringing and cars pull away from the rank. That proves to me that there is——

What would be the reduction in the number of cars in that position?

Mr. Declan McEntee

Most people here would not be familiar with our position in Eyre Square where we have a taxi rank down by Fox's Bar. It goes down as far as Garvey's Inn, and the add-on to it goes right around the corner. Every Saturday night it is there until midnight but on that particular night, from 9.10 p.m., it stopped half way down Eyre Square. I counted them and 30 to 40 cars that would normally be in the rank in Eyre Square were not there. The same applies in the other main rank in O'Brien's Bridge. I realise many people here might not be familiar with the geography of Galway but the Chairman would be familiar with it. It was so obvious and there was not the snarl-up at 2 a.m. that would normally be the case on a Saturday night. It will happen some Saturday night in Galway city in particular that an ambulance will be unable to get up the town because the taxis are blocking the entire area.

What is the position in Dublin as regards people on social welfare? Is there any evidence——

Mr. Aidan Moore

On social welfare, the simple suggestion we made, which does not appear to have been taken up yet, is that people who hold a PSV driving licence who are in receipt of a social welfare payment should be required to surrender that PSV licence temporarily. If they decide to re-enter the industry, it will be valid for them to take up but while they are in receipt of the payment, that licence should be surrendered.

A position has arisen where the rental market is growing because an ever-increasing number of people are leaving the business and taxi licences are selling for as little as €2,000. There are people who are prepared to buy them because a position is arising where one can rent out a car to someone and it does not matter whether they are working or on social welfare. They can arrive on a Friday evening, take the car and once they produce a PSV licence, the people who are renting the cars are satisfied they are legitimate. They are not concerned about whether they are in receipt of social welfare or are paying PAYE. Those people can then work Friday, Saturday and Sunday and return the car on Sunday night. There is no control over them whereas if they had to surrender the PSV licence, it would at least eliminate the social welfare fraud aspect.

Before I call Deputy Connaughton, we made a recommendation to the regulator, which we reiterate today, that any company renting taxi licences should be forced to provide a monthly log to both the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection giving the full details of the people to whom they rent those licences and taxi vehicles. That would be another preventative mechanism to try to ensure there is up-to-date information on the renting of taxis. We have recommended that the practice of renting out taxis and licences by other licence holders, albeit for emergency purposes, should be stopped. We understand there are people with 700 taxi licences who are renting taxis, and I have seen some evidence where there is no question but that fraudulent behaviour was involved.

The representatives are welcome. I regret that they are before the committee again. There was great consultation on the previous occasion and many of the people both here and in the audience participated.

The report we drew up, on which agreement was unanimous, stated that there were fundamental problems in the taxi industry. We are sorry to hear that almost none of our recommendations became a reality. That is a serious matter for the representatives. Many taxi drivers tell me, and they are right, that the bottom line is that there are too many taxis and for the people involved in the business there is too little business to go around. There is a finite amount of money that can be collected on any one night in any one city. If too many people are trying to grab that business, the income derived from it, when distributed, will be too little for most people involved in the industry. The question of how that can be controlled is more difficult than we thought it would be. We gave great thought to this matter and every member of the committee signed up to nine or ten recommendations we considered would make a dramatic change. The representatives will understand that we do not want to remove competition from the market. There is no point in our going back to what the representatives would call either the good or bad old days. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on one's view, that will not happen. There were too few taxis at a point in time and there are far too many now. There must be some control to strike a balance somewhere in between. On a personal level, I am convinced that some control will have to be introduced in respect of some people in the business who are making it bad for full-timers or newcomers. Something will have to be done.

I am well aware of the situation in Galway every night, not alone on a Saturday night. Mr. McEntee's members have a horrible time insofar as parking is concerned; there is nothing that can be done because there simply is not enough space. One would imagine having a good taxi service would ensure there would be less traffic but it is working in the opposite way now; the taxis are blocking the traffic as well. The people who run the whole show in Galway city, and I assume in Dublin as well, will have to seriously consider parking for the taxis which is a major problem.

I was disappointed to hear that no progress has been made on an issue. I remember reading a report on the income of taxi drivers, which was professionally produced. We heard terrible commentary in terms of the income on which people had to feed their families. I assume their income has fallen since then as a result of the downturn in the economy. From what we heard during the past year or so, it is difficult to make a living or even half a living in the taxi business. There is obviously something wrong and someone will have to fix it however that can be done.

There are many matters we could discuss but one issue, mentioned by Mr. Brennan, was the lack of an appeals procedure and that there is nobody to whom taxi drivers can turn. I was not aware of that. I thought that Mr. Brennan's members had a conduit to an appeal authority, but, seemingly, that is not so.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

There is no appeals mechanism. We identified that more than four years ago. We engaged with the Department of Transport. We were told it could only be dealt with in the context of the then process that was being carried out by the Department of the Taoiseach. We were led to believe it would resolve this anomaly that exists for this group of workers, and it is an anomaly. They are denied access to a rights commissioner, the Labour Relations Commission, the Labour Court and the National Employment Rights Authority, which ironically is headed up by the former regulator. They do not have an appeals process. The only answer we have got is that we can bring the matter to a judicial review. However, that is not legally correct. A judicial review would not answer the requirement set down in Europe under article 6 of the human rights treaty. Our people are completely marginalised as a group of workers in this country. The only option they have been left with under the Constitution is to publicly protest about their position.

It that a major issue in the taxi industry now?

Mr. Jerry Brennan

It is a huge issue. From a working perspective and a psychological perspective, it undermines any driver in this industry. They feel that they have no say in the industry. Members should note that these are a group of people who rather than look for State handouts decided to make their own way, to pull whatever they had together to provide a means of self-employment to look after themselves and their families. These are not people who are slouching around waiting for something to be handed to them. For them to be denied any right of appeal is morally unjust.

We should examine that issue in the future. The only other point I wish to make is that I want to apologise for the fact that Deputy Coveney was unfortunately unable to be here today but he, as the Fine Gael spokesperson on transport, will meet the representatives.

We will ask the transport authority to take up that issue. Before I call Senator Brady and Deputy Dooley, Mr. Gillanders wished to make an contribution and I invite him to do so.

Mr. Norman Gillanders

To respond to a point the Chairman made about identifying how many taxi workers have other jobs, that is obviously a concern for the Revenue in the sense that there is a risk that somebody who has a day job and works part-time as a taxi driver is not making a return in terms of his or her taxi income. I do not want to sound too much like a Revenue official but section 143 of this year's Finance Act has given us the power to get information from the taxi regulator. We will match that information against our records for both the business register and for employees. It will allow us to get a better handle on the number of people who have other jobs and are working in the taxi industry. We have a file on that. There are roughly 60,000 records on it and we will match them to our databases. That may give us a better handle on the number involved if we share that information——

Mr. Gillanders said he had 60,000 records. On what kind of people are those records held?

Mr. Norman Gillanders

There are 3,300 on a list of registered vehicle licence holders, roughly 25,000 people with driver licences and roughly 23,000 who are holders of both vehicle and driver licences. This is the information we have got under statute from the taxi regulator. We are matching it to the tax registers. There is a prospect it will give us a handle on those working in the industry who may not be declaring their taxi earnings to us. We have statutory powers to share that information with the Department of Social Protection, which should give us a better handle on the problem of people signing on and working in the taxi industry. I thought that information would be of interest to the committee.

I believe it is accepted that most people who are full-time taxi drivers make their tax returns and if they do not, it is now much easier to catch them. However, the complaint we have heard from the industry relates to the person who has a PAYE job during the week and who works for a few hours on a Saturday night. We have heard from full-time taxi drivers that they know of people in other professions — they can name them — prison officers, teachers, bus drivers and others. If it was possible to indicate on a taxi driver's identification card that he or she was employed in a PAYE job, would that assist in terms of identifying those people? Hopefully, the gardaí, in particular, would be involved in the enforcement process. As a preventative tool, if somebody picks up such a taxi driver's number, it could easily be tracked to ascertain if he or she was making a return as a taxi driver.

Mr. Norman Gillanders

Every piece of intelligence is a help and that may well be of help. Such computerised information gives us, as a tax authority, a good handle on that problem and will allow us to put together compliance programmes in the latter part of this year and into 2011. We also take old fashioned steps in terms of multi-agency checkpoints, which we are running with the gardaí and with our colleagues in the Department of Social Protection, NERA and the taxi regulator's office. We have operated those in cites around the country, including Galway, with what I regard, from a Revenue point of view, as good results.

Good results?

Mr. Norman Gillanders

Yes. We will do more of that. We have strengthened the number of staff in our joint investigation units and we assign that body of Revenue staff to work like this in the shadow economy.

We had good results. We examined nearly 100 taxis in Galway earlier this year and found that roughly 20% of them had tax compliance issues. Others would have had social welfare and regulatory issues. That work took place on one night with all agencies involved. When it comes down to the basic leg work that we must do, as well as the more intelligent use of information, those multi-agency checks are valuable.

I welcome that information. The fact that it is being brought out today for the first time should act as a deterrent.

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

There is one point I want to make about those in receipt of a social welfare payment while working as taxi drivers. That is allowable. If a self-employed person finds himself or herself unemployed or he or she is getting less work, the person can qualify for a social welfare payment depending on his or her means and continue to work in the taxi industry while also, depending on the means and the expenses from the job, being in receipt of jobseeker's allowance, for example. It is not just a case of whether somebody is working and he or she is also in receipt of a social welfare payment at the same time. The person may be perfectly entitled to that social welfare payment while continuing to work.

One of the recommendations here previously was that at a time when there were far too many people in the taxi industry, giving people a back to work allowance to go into the industry did not make any sense. I take it that is not happening.

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

I take that point. Any applications for the back to work enterprise allowance should be looked at in the context of what is the person applying for in terms of what type of industry they are going for. In the locality, the jobs facilitators and the partnership companies need to have a look at the particular industries in that area.

Nobody has any problem about persons in receipt of a social welfare payment such as family income supplement or whatever it may be, but those issues need to be identifiable so as to cut out the abuse, which is happening inevitably, as has been stated from the Galway experience.

I welcome everybody here today. It is heartening to hear the information Mr. Gillanders has just given to us. Speaking to the Chairman privately on the way into the meeting, I said that we are having meetings here to beat the band with the taxi associations and others and we do not seem to be getting far, but I just realise we are. The Chairman has shown leadership on this issue and our meetings have been productive. That alone, and what Mr.Gillanders has come up with, shows that we are making progress.

We all know what the problems are. Mr. McEntee spoke about the problems in Galway — insufficient spaces for ranks. That is a problem everywhere. It is a problem in Dublin. In Donaghmede where I am from I saw the other night where they were double parked on the road, actually dangerous, and the police just leave them alone because they know that they must make a living. It does not matter. Given the number of taxis that are in existence, in my estimation one would not be able to provide sufficient ranks for them.

Mr. Brennan mentioned part-time drivers and double jobbing. One can call it what one likes. If one is doing part-time work, whether or not one has a permanent job during the day does not matter. I just call them part-time drivers. One can say they are double jobbing but it does not matter what one calls them.

If a person is double jobbing, there should be a personal database for every individual in this country where one should be able to check one's tax and social welfare. Everything should be on that one database. As the Chairman stated, it should not be too difficult to check each individual and the Department would soon find out whether he or she is in compliance.

On who is driving a taxi, I am aware of situations where persons who are not from this country have taxi licences and three or four persons, such as their pals who live with them, can avail of driving those taxis. On the Garda having checkpoints, it has come to the stage where you would need a separate corps of gardaí or whoever, who would be assigned to that and doing nothing else. Gardaí do not have time to do that and some of them do not know even what to look for.

On sick benefit, Mr. Moore alluded to a person in receipt of social welfare surrendering his or her licence. In fact, I dealt with cases where persons were genuinely out sick and got supplementary allowance from the welfare officer, but, eventually, they were cut off because they were advised they had to surrender their licences. When I inquired about this, I found that is the case. One cannot surrender a licence on a temporary basis. One must go through the entire system and the same procedure again when one becomes job-ready. That is unfair and should be examined. It does not happen in any other place of employment or in self-employment.

Those are merely a few of the issues. I would agree with Mr. Brennan that if a person is in a day job working nine to five and stays out working in a taxi until midnight or 1 o'clock in the morning, he or she cannot do either job properly. I do not know how one overcomes that. We have discussed all of these problems previously. We must look at how we will fix these problems, box each one of these problems off and tackle them one by one, rather than come in here continuously talking about this and that being terrible. We all know all of this. One could give out about everybody. We know there are problems. I could take the delegation to my own road where there are a number of persons driving taxis whom I know are not compliant. I suppose others present could state the same.

Mr. Aidan Moore

I want to clarify a matter for Senator Brady just in case he misunderstood what I said. In fairness to the Senator, I have spoken to him about this on the phone. It is a confusion that always arises as regards PSV licences. There are two PSV licences: one that we would know as the plate licence; and the PSV driving licence that entitles a driver to drive. The licence I referred to was the PSV driver's licence.

The situation that Senator Brady found himself in with one of his clients related to the plate licence, for which one paid out €6,000, or maybe for which somebody paid originally €70,000. I can see no justification for anybody surrendering that. As a temporary measure to prevent somebody claiming social welfare payments and driving a taxi, however, the PSV driver's licence could be suspended or surrendered temporarily, but that it would be there to be reinstated for the driver when he or she returns.

I am new to the Joint Committee on Transport but not totally new to the issue of taxi licences. I remember we dealt with these matters in the local authority in the old days when there was a dual mandate and some of us were councillors and TDs at the same time.

There was double jobbing then.

No doubt at that time we were double jobbing.

There were no health hazards as such.

Indeed, that was political double jobbing. Anyway, that has been done away with. Of course the problem was that there was a shortage of taxis and I remember our best attempts in Dublin City Council to regulate the taxi plates on a gradual basis were stymied at the time, and we do not necessarily want to go into that. It was just impossible to make any progress in giving a gradual increase in numbers over a period of time. I remember Mr. Frank Dunlop was brought in as the front man to argue the case on one major occasion.

Now we have gone to the other extreme, and we have gone into total deregulation. One cannot manage any business on deregulation. Deregulation means no regulation. We talked about light regulation in the old days of the Celtic tiger, but no regulation at all is really what we have had over recent years in the taxi business. That is really at the core of it.

We must get a system in place whereby there is meaningful and effective regulation. The problem is that the regulator does not seem to be listening to the proposals that are being made, and the Minister does not seem to be listening to them either. The committee put forward a fine set of proposals some time ago but very few of these have been implemented. The only one of these proposals that is likely to be fully implemented is that relating to the Commission for Taxi Regulation being subsumed into the Dublin Transportation Office. To date, these proposals have been left on the shelf.

The central issue is simple: there are too many taxis in operation. Ordinary taxi drivers cannot make a living. I see evidence of this on the streets of Dublin each day. The city is just overcrowded with taxis. At weekends, the streets are jammed with them. There is no doubt that people are engaging in double jobbing. Mr. Gillanders's comment to the effect that approximately 20% of taxi drivers have tax compliance issues was interesting. I accept there could be reasons other than double jobbing which are responsible for this. However, we do not know how many taxi drivers may have issues with regard to their compliance with social welfare requirements. Is the Department of Social Protection checking if any taxi drivers are working and claiming? It would be useful if the Department examined this matter in conjunction with the Commission for Taxi Regulation.

Questions arise with regard to why people in full-time employment should be granted taxi licences. That makes absolutely no sense. Once a person who already has a full-time job is granted a taxi licence, he or she is being informed that he or she can break the law. As Mr. Brennan stated, most people in full-time employment work 39 or 40 hours per week. If one takes on another full-time job, that figure is doubled. Under the Organisation of Working Time Act and the organisation of working time directive, this is 20 hours in excess of the number of hours per week one is entitled to work. People in this situation are guilty of breaking both domestic and European law. I do not understand how it is legal to grant someone who is already in full-time employment a taxi licence. Perhaps the Chairman might obtain legal advice on whether it might be possible to bring this kind of practice to a halt.

I am also interested in the proposal to the effect that the Commission for Taxi Regulation should buy back licences at the purchase price. The committee put forward a similar recommendation. Surplus licences, that is, those belonging to people who are exiting the business, should not be sold back into the market. Instead, they should be bought by the regulator. This would gradually begin to limit the number of licences available. I understand that the only new licences that will be granted from now on will be those relating to taxis with wheelchair access. Effectively, there is a moratorium in place in respect of new licences.

It is important to reduce the overall number of licences, put a stop to double jobbing and have the regulator buy back any surplus licences. This will give rise to a situation where taxi drivers will be in a position to make a decent living. That is the key. Once what I have suggested is done, everything else will fall into place.

I do not believe an adequate system of enforcement has been identified. Senator Martin Brady stated that perhaps a special section could be established within the Garda Síochána to deal with enforcement. I am of the view that a model which utilises the expertise of the Garda, the Revenue and the Department of Social Protection is the way to go. Information could be shared by these three agencies and people who are engaged in wrongdoing would know that they are going to be hit hard. We could put in place an awareness campaign which would inform people that Departments, agencies, etc., are going to zero in on those who are breaking the law, who are not tax compliant, who are not compliant with social welfare requirements, who are not compliant with the organisation of working time legislation, etc.

There are many other issues which arise. For example, the huge numbers of taxis driving around Dublin, Galway and elsewhere give rise to a massive level of carbon emissions. This does not tie in well with the Government's goal of trying to reduce such emissions by 30% by 2020. In addition, having such numbers of taxis on our roads is not conducive to health and safety. Those who drive taxis work long hours and in recent times they have not been able to make a living as a result of the pressure under which they are operating. Some individuals have found it impossible to cope with that pressure. We must focus on the issues of double jobbing, the buying back of taxi licences by the regulator and putting in place an enforcement mechanism involving the agencies to which I referred.

My final point relates to the fact that taxi drivers must renew their vehicles after nine years. That requirement is too strict. Taxi drivers' vehicles must pass the NCT but this is optional for ordinary citizens. Obsolescence is not a factor with quite a number of cars and it might be a long time before a vehicle needs to be replaced. In our current straightened circumstances, it is extremely difficult for people to find the money to buy new cars and I am of the view, therefore, that the nine year requirement should no longer be in operation.

I welcome the delegations, the members of which made a number of striking points. I agree with Senator Martin Brady that there is a sense of déjà vu for those of us who have been members of the committee for a long period because we heard all this before. We are encountering great difficulties in advancing the case not only of taxi drivers but also of members of the travelling public who utilise the services on offer. Mr. Declan McEntee outlined the position in Galway, which is similar to that in Ennis and many other county towns.

I do not wish to become involved in discussing the minutiae of this issue. However, we must been seen to be trying to advance matters. As far as I am concerned, we have dealt adequately with issues relating to social welfare and taxation. We have not, though, advanced the case with regard to road safety or health and safety to which Mr. Brennan referred. I suggest that we give consideration to inviting Mr. Noel Brett, chief executive of the Road Safety Authority, to come before us. Mr. Brett has previously addressed the committee on road safety issues and always makes considered contributions. I am of the view that we might benefit from his guidance in respect of this matter.

I cannot understand how truck and bus drivers are limited with regard to the amount of time they can spend driving their vehicles. I do not understand how certain of these individuals can alight from their vehicles at 7 p.m., having driven them for the prescribed period, and then operate a taxi for the remainder of that day and into the early hours of the next morning. There are reasons bus and truck drivers are limited with regard to the number of hours for which they are allowed to drive their vehicles. Tacographs or other appropriate devices are used to monitor that they do not exceed their allotted time. However, having already driven buses or trucks for most of the preceding day, certain individuals are then allowed to drive passengers around in their taxis for prolonged periods.

In my view, that which I have outlined highlights the fact that there is no joined-up thinking when it comes to road safety or the protection of passengers. It is incumbent on us, as legislators, to work with the taxi regulator to find some method of ensuring that, in the future, people will not be able to operate in the way I have described. this would bring to an end the practice of double jobbing. If, as part of one's job, one operates a computer, a machine in a factory or whatever and if one is not given sufficient rest or down time, it is not possible for one to be in a position to be able to give one's all in a safe and coherent way. The same can be said of those who drive taxis.

We have a great deal of work to do in respect of this matter. I suggest that we carry out that work in consultation with the statutory authority which has competence in this regard, namely, the Road Safety Authority. I reiterate my suggestion to the effect that consideration be given to inviting Noel Brett, chief executive of the authority, to come before us and work with us and the taxi regulator. I am sure the taxi regulator has been making efforts to try to move this issue forward. Perhaps we might be of some assistance in that regard.

I welcome our guests. The town of Navan is no different than it was when they came before us two or perhaps three years ago. I go in an odd Saturday night and it is depressing to the see the number of taxis with no one in them. The one way to go with this is to support Mr. Gillanders in his work. He has made it clear Revenue officials are out and about. This is always a black market during a recession. I have no problem with anyone double jobbing. If one has a wife and children, no overtime and commitments, one will take another job and I have no problem with that provided it is done right. The black market must be dealt with and we have a responsibility to ensure, on the basis of the comments by Mr. Gillanders, that we provide whatever help Revenue needs. The taxi associations must also do their bit. They do not have to squeal but the facts are there and if taxi drivers are operating in the black market, let them pay their taxes like everyone else. That is the way to go. We should all redouble our efforts because too many taxi drivers are not making a living. I took a taxi recently and the driver told me he works 80 hours a week to make €400 a week and he knows he cannot continue doing that. The cowboys have to go and that is the case with every aspect of the black market.

I echo the comments of my colleagues. Deputy Dooley referred to health and safety issues. During our original debate, I suggested that PAYE workers who apply for a taxi licence should have to produce their P60, which would clearly show they were in the PAYE system and not self-employed. Taxi drivers are self-employed and this would make a clear distinction. I accept Deputy McEntee's comments about people wanting to double job and earn a few bob in these harsh economic times, but if one is doing an eight-hour day in one job and then going out to work all night in a taxi, one is a danger to the public and we, as a committee, have a responsibility to taxi users to ensure they travel in a safe environment and the taxi driver is in a fit condition to deliver them safely to their destination.

Dublin City Council officials appeared before the committee regarding the lack of taxi ranks, which is an issue in every town and city. They should be invited back or communicated with to establish what progress has been made. It is a major issue in Dublin where I have seen taxis parked all over the joint — on footpaths, double parked and so on. That is not conducive to good traffic management. With regard to dealing with the overall problem, we should be more proactive with local authorities to force them to provide taxi ranks and to build them into their future development plans because the current position is unsatisfactory. Last Saturday after the match in Croke Park, I went to the Mater Hospital to visit my mother. I walked from the ground and took a taxi back from the hospital to Philipsburgh Avenue where I had my car parked. The fare was €7.50. I gave the guy a tenner and he almost kissed me for giving him a few extra bob. I was chatting to him generally about business but I did not want to tell him I was a member of the committee. There was not a huge crowd at the match on Saturday and the business on match day did not live up to expectations. Most taxi drivers say it is difficult to make a decent wage.

I am not a member of the committee but I thank the Chairman for allowing me to attend. I have no axe to grind on this issue but I came to the meeting to strongly support taxi drivers because over the past 12 months I have met many of them in my constituency and I have heard terrible stories. I have investigated them and I feel strongly that taxi drivers have a legitimate case. Market saturation, costs, backward procedures and health and safety are issues that are stifling the industry. We know all the problems and the question is what we should do. Senator Brady is correct that we need to stop talking about the issues. Some recommendations and solutions have been identified and we need to move on and implement the recommendations. Between 12,000 and 20,000 people work in the industry and we are doing damage but not doing something practical to help the drivers. I represent Independent Members in the House and we are supportive of the taxi associations and will do anything we can to support them.

A number of our recommendations, including the moratorium, were agreed. One of the key recommendations was that the National Transport Authority, NTA, would take over responsibility for the work of the taxi regulator and that has been provided for in legislation. We will ask the NTA for the date on which that will happen. We expect a better response from the authority than we have had up to now from the taxi regulator. That has been one positive development in securing action on recommendations that have been made. It was suggested before Deputy Kennedy arrived — this will be put to the authority — that when a PSV licence is being renewed, a P60 should be demanded and reference to the fact that the applicant is a PAYE workers should be made on the identification card for the car. That is an important preventive measure to ensure PAYE workers who work part time, with whom I have no problem as long as they are legitimate, are seen to be legitimate.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

A few issues were raised about social welfare allowances. Mr. Lawler referred to jobseeker's benefit. Taxi drivers are not entitled to this benefit but they may be entitled to jobseeker's allowance under the assessment. If they qualify, they are entitled to the social welfare allowance. The difficulty I have found — I have had to print off the information from the Department's website — is that when drivers go to social welfare officers, they are told they are self-employed and they are not entitled to anything, which is not the case. On other occasions they are told they must surrender their licence, but again this is not the case. They do not have to stop working. They can continue to work and drive their taxi. They simply have to prove under assessment with the social welfare officers that they fall under the level of income the family should have but it is a problem and perhaps Mr. Lawler might be able to help with that by sending an e-mail. On many occasions, drivers have been told that they are self-employed and there is nothing for them. If this could be addressed——

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

That should not happen. We will remind staff of the procedures to be followed.

That is widespread in the community, regardless of the taxi service. There is a view among people on the ground, some of whom perhaps are ill-informed, that if one is self-employed, one is not entitled to social welfare payments. People have come to my office and those of other Members with the same story but nothing could be further from the truth. If one's means are such that one is in need of a payment, one is entitled to that under the social welfare code. Perhaps there is requirement to conduct an advertising campaign in this regard.

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

I am aware that is the perception but I encourage representatives that if there are particular cases they encounter in particular areas or if particular individuals have been refused their entitlements——

Mr. Jerry Brennan

If the information could come from Department's management informing the employees of the entitlements, that would be a great help.

The issue is that self-employed people are not entitled to social welfare benefit.

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

That is true if they made a class S contribution. That is what self-employed people pay and they are not entitled to jobseeker's benefit on the basis of their class S contributions, but if they have employee contributions in the past four years or so, they may be entitled to something. For the most part it will be jobseeker's allowance they would be applying for.

Would they qualify for jobseeker's allowance?

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

They may do, depending on their means.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

If not jobseeker's allowance, social welfare allowance would be the next stage they would be assessed for.

Ms Miriam Fanning

It is supplementary welfare allowance, which is an emergency payment paid by the Health Service Executive until a jobseeker's allowance claim is prepared and assessed.

No more than Deputy Dooley, I have had the experience of the community welfare officer dismissing a person and saying he simply cannot help him, although we know that is not the case.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

I do not want to get into an argument with Mr. Lawler but I can provide information from his own website which states that the people are entitled to social welfare allowance, not supplementary welfare benefit. They are two different things.

Perhaps Mr. Brennan could supply that information. There is a difficulty that a self-employed taxi driver who applies for social welfare allowance will be found to have means through his income, irrespective of how small it is, and therefore the chances are that he will not qualify. However, that is a technical issue. Our main concern is that people who are in receipt of social welfare, whether benefit or allowance, are owners of a PSV licence and are operating while in receipt of social welfare. It is quite clear that it is difficult to track that. Mr. Brennan might comment further on the initiatives taken when Mr. McEntee has had a chance to answer the points made by the other members of the committee.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

I thank Deputy Costello and all the gentlemen in the room for their support. I can feel the frustration of the committee. If the committee is frustrated at the lack of progress being made, I ask members to consider how taxi drivers and their families feel and the level of frustration and difficult circumstances they are enduring at present. Some, unfortunately, cannot endure them.

Deputy Kennedy referred to taxi ranks and the provision of infrastructure. It is interesting to note that Dublin City Council took in €56,243,000 from the sale of taxi licences between 2000 and 2006. In the same period Dublin City Council took in €5,825,000 on the renewal of licences. As representatives and people in the industry, we have seen none of those funds being put back into the industry to provide infrastructure, improve ranks or provide the most basic necessities such as toilet facilities. Even on some of the main ranks, one would imagine that would be a basic requirement but there is no such provision. I would like to see where the €56 million went. Some of it may have been allocated in a way we do not know about or may be sitting somewhere and could be used.

Where can we see evidence of that figure?

Mr. Jerry Brennan

I have it here. It was provided to me by Dublin City Council.

Perhaps, if we are communicating with Dublin City Council, we might ask for an explanation as to how it has spent that money, if it has spent it.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

Legislation in this area is ever-changing. There is the 1997 Organisation of Working Time Act and there was further legislation in 2002. Legislation last month said that self-employed truck drivers do not have a full derogation but are self-employed. There are two fundamental changes in the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005. One is that self-employed people must consider themselves to be both employee and employer. That changes that status and how it may be applied with reference to the 1997 Organisation of Working Time Act.

I feel the frustration of the committee. I ask the members to consider that taxi drivers and their families and we as representatives are equally frustrated, if not more so. I thank the members again for their support.

Mr. Aidan Moore

With regard to Mr. Brennan's figures, the Commission for Taxi Regulation has in the region of €23 million in its coffers. This is being generated by the sale of plates and the renewal of licences. Unfortunately, it appears that this money may now be used to finance the National Transport Authority. It is being diverted away from taxis to cover the whole of the industry. We have a significant concern about this. This money should go back to the taxi industry to subsidise the installation of ranks in cities and towns and improve the wheelchair fleet, which is diminishing daily. People do not have the money to replace wheelchair accessible taxis. New rules coming down the line in 2012 will make the current wheelchair fleet obsolete and no there is no subsidy for upgrading.

We will put those points to the NTA.

Mr. Declan McEntee

It is a great idea to have the PPS number on the PSV licence. I do not want to put extra expense on taxi drivers because the cost of our licence increased from €9 to €250, which is an awful jump. The licence must be renewed every five years. This means that if someone gets a licence today, he or she does not have to worry about a tax clearance certificate for five years. I would prefer to see a 12-month licence costing €50. The cost to licence holders would not increase but the licence holder would be obliged to produce a tax clearance certificate every year. The five-year gap is crazy. I do not know where it came from.

We will make that recommendation.

Mr. Declan McEntee

Most gardaí on the beat in Galway do not know the rules and regulations governing the taxi industry. I have spoken to a few of them and told them different things they should have known but they did not know anything about them. They have not been trained in the regulations. If the regulator is refusing to put a full-time officer in the areas where they are needed, serious thought must be given to training a section of the Garda, whether half a dozen members or whatever, on the taxi industry. Doing this is not rocket science. It should not be that difficult. Those gardaí could work on a shift basis and spot check taxis while they are on their normal beat and are walking along the street anyway.

Mr. Bernard Craven

With regard to fraud in the industry, a number of taxis operating in Galway have had the licence stickers tampered with. These are supposed to be tamper-proof discs. I have reported one vehicle twice to the taxi regulator. I was told by a lady in that office called Julie that the regulator does not have the manpower to investigate individual cases. That practice is ongoing in the industry.

We made four recommendations to the new chairman of the National Transport Authority, Mr. John Fitzgerald, last April. The most important concerned the perception in the industry that a significant number of illegal operators are operating in the main cities and the need to have gardaí involved full-time in inspections to establish if these are the facts. We have made a recommendation, which we will reiterate after this meeting, that gardaí be brought back to their traditional role of implementing and ensuring the implementation of the regulations. It is not something that would take up a great deal of Garda time. It could be done in the course of members' normal duties. It is not enough to have nine inspectors covering the whole country. They cannot do it. As has been said, when they come into a particular city, everyone knows they are there and the exercise is no good.

There is also a need for greater co-ordination between the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners to ensure taxi drivers are compliant. We welcome what we have heard today in that regard. An end must also be put to the renting and leasing of taxi plates and until this practice ends, proper controls over this activity must be put in place. We recommend that any renting of taxi plates should be reported to the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection. Finally, a comprehensive programme of additional taxi ranks must be drawn up for Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. We will provide the transcript of today's meeting to the new transport authority for examination.

Mr. Brennan has a very good grasp of the working time directive. We received a letter in 2009 on that from the Minister at the time and we intend to bring in officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation to discuss it. The letter stated that the organisation of working time does not apply to the self-employed who decide for themselves, independently, the basis of their hours. However, it states that with regard to taxi drivers who fall within its scope, section 23 of the Act provides that if an employee, such as a taxi driver with employee status, works for two employers, he may not work more than 48 hours per week, unlike the self-employed who are in a position to control their own working hours. There is clearly a discrepancy in that. I am not sure I heard Mr. McEntee correctly or that it is the case, but I understood from him that a person who applies for a PSV licence should be available to work a minimum of 40 hours. Is that correct?

Mr. Declan McEntee

They are supposed to be available to work 40 hours a week.

I do not know if that is true.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

That was a requirement but it has been removed. The only stipulation on time now is under the Road Traffic Act which states that a taxi driver can work three consecutive 11-hour shifts but then must take a day off. That is the only time stipulation that exists currently.

There is some chance of implementing that.

Mr. Jerry Brennan

It is impossible to implement.

We will address that issue with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation when its officials attend this committee. I thank the officials from the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection for their attendance. If they have any further comments to make, they are welcome to make them now.

Mr. Ciaran Lawler

In response to what Mr. Brennan said about people being told they were not entitled to anything on the basis of their being self-employed, I reiterate that that should not happen. We will issue a reminder to staff on the procedures for dealing with people who are self-employed. Senator Brady mentioned that people were asked to surrender their PSV licence when they applied for social welfare. The only time that should happen is when a person has declared that he or she has ceased operating as a taxi driver and is applying for jobseeker's allowance. In that case, we would ask for confirmation from or a letter from the taxi regulator confirming that the licence had been surrendered. Deputy Costello mentioned, in response to Mr. Gillanders, the multi-agency checkpoints. The Department of Social Protection has worked quite closely with the Revenue Commissioners in those operations. However, I do not have any figures to hand on the success or otherwise of detection of fraudulent activity on the social welfare side, especially with regard to taxi drivers, but I can endeavour to get that for the committee if it is available.

Mr. Norman Gillanders

I would be glad to come back at some stage to update the committee on our tax compliance work in this area. It is important that we acknowledge the support we have received from the Garda with regard to multi-agency checkpoints. It is important to our staff that gardaí are present at some of those locations. I mentioned one multi-agency checkpoint in Galway. There were 22 officers from all the agencies involved in that work on that particular night. This included six gardaí and three Garda cars. We are very pleased with the support we get.

Were there tax compliance issues with 20%?

Mr. Norman Gillanders

Approximately 20% of 100 vehicles we checked had tax issues of one sort or another. Some were minor issues but others were more significant. This 20% does not include other compliance issues discovered by the Department of Social Protection. We have found this to be a general pattern when we have had these checkpoints.

What happens then? What sanctions follow?

Mr. Norman Gillanders

If there are tax offences, we investigate them. If we think someone would warrant a Revenue audit, we would audit. If the case required us to open some back years for auditing, we would do that. If the people were not registered for tax at all, we would register them, possibly backdating that. It depends on the circumstances. We came across eight people, for example, who had not been filing tax returns although they were on the register. Six of the cases that came to light that night in Galway had ceased operating according to Revenue records, but they were on the taxi rank doing business. Three said they had only started that week and we would have had to have investigated that. These checks throw up many issues but we follow up on them all.

We welcome that kind of initiative.

Was that check a one-off or will such checks take place in Cork, Dublin and elsewhere?

Mr. Norman Gillanders

We have conducted these checkpoints throughout the country. The issue is whether and how we can organise ourselves to do some more. Someone mentioned earlier that when the checkpoints appear, the taxi traffic thins out quickly. We need an element of surprise and need to get in and out quickly in sufficient numbers to make an impact. That is how we must do this work.

That is a welcome development and is news for the committee. We called for something like this previously. The fact so many people disappear when a checkpoint is set up proves the point that has been made time and again by legitimate, full-time taxi operators. We thank Mr. Gillanders for that and will welcome an increase in that kind of activity to help keep cowboys out of the business. Taxi driving is the easiest business in which to participate at a black market level. The response of the Revenue is welcome and better late than never.

I thank the representatives of the taxi organisations. We chose Galway because we wanted to hear the experience from outside Dublin. We would welcome Cork or Limerick at the next opportunity. We will have the National Transport Authority before the committee at a later stage and may invite the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection to come back for that. I thank all those in attendance for coming along and providing this information to us.

Top
Share