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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2010

Public Transport: Discussion with National Transport Authority

Today's business is a discussion with the National Transport Authority, NTA.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Gerry Murphy, chief executive officer, NTA, and Ms Anne Graham, director of corporate policy and services, NTA. I propose that they make a brief presentation to be followed by a question and answer session.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I thank the committee for its invitation. I am accompanied by Ms Anne Graham, director of corporate policy and services. We are glad of the opportunity to deal with the queries of members and to hear their views.

At our last attendance in February, which was the first appearance of the authority before the committee, we took the opportunity to set out the functions and priorities of the authority and we explained in particular the difference between our national and greater Dublin area, GDA, responsibilities. Today I will set out some recent developments in our functions, I will outline progress made and I will broadly address the bus licensing and taxi regulation issues mentioned by the Chairman.

Since our last attendance there have been some statutory and administrative extensions of our functions. The authority's functions under section 60 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 were extended by statutory instrument in March 2010 to apply to the cities and counties of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford and the contiguous areas of those counties. Those functions relate to integrated information which encompasses initiatives such as multi-modal journey planning and real time passenger information.

The Minister for Transport made two orders in September in respect of integrated ticketing. The purpose of the first order was to commence section 58 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act, which gives the authority responsibility for the development of integrated ticketing in the GDA. The purpose of the second order was to extend the authority's remit in respect of integrated ticketing to the rest of the State. As the integrated ticketing project has been progressed to its critical testing and roll-out phases by the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, we have exercised its power of assignment under the Act to enable the RPA to continue to develop the project on our behalf for the time being. It is intended to terminate this assignment in due course once the project moves into its operational phase during 2011 and, at that point, the RPA staff working on the project will transfer to the authority. I will cover integrated ticketing later.

The authority has also assumed responsibility for funding the Transport 21 project office within Dublin City Council. That office collates and distributes information relating to the delivery of Transport 21 projects in the GDA and the objective is to keep both citizens and visitors to Dublin fully informed and up-to-date as the various projects are rolled out across the city. It also works closely with the RPA and Irish Rail on planning traffic management within the city for the periods when major construction works are under way.

We anticipate that the Minister for Transport, in the near future, will designate the authority as the body responsible for the enforcement of EU regulation that ensures basic rights for rail passengers, for example, with regard to insurance, ticketing, and for passengers with reduced mobility. In addition, we understand that the statutory assimilation of the Commission for Taxi Regulation into the authority will take place in December when we will then become responsible for developing and maintaining a regulatory framework for the control and operation of taxis, hackneys and limousines. Until such time, this sector will continue to be overseen by the commission. When the guidelines for the licensing of public bus passenger services are adopted by the authority later this month, the bus licensing function will be transferred statutorily from the Department of Transport to the authority.

I refer to progress in capital investment since our last meeting. The authority is responsible for financing and construction of public transport projects in the greater Dublin area, namely counties Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and the four local authority areas in Dublin. The authority's delivery role is undertaken by other organisations, including the Railway Procurement Agency for Luas and metro projects, Iarnród Éireann for DART projects, commuter and regional railway projects and local authorities for bus, cycling and walking measures. To fulfil its function, the authority needs the delivery agencies to follow clear processes to ensure projects are well managed; that the authority is informed of all key matters relating to projects; and that at each key milestone in a project the authority has received the information to make sound decisions on the authorisation of the next stage of work.

We have introduced three sets of guidelines which are now being implemented by the delivery agencies. The guidelines are for the management of public transport projects delivered by conventional procurement or by public private partnership and the cost management guidelines associated with those projects. While the agencies already had well developed processes in place, they have welcomed the guidelines due to the greater clarity on decision points and interface requirements with the authority. Those guidelines are on our website and have been since implementation.

An investment programme of almost €350 million for this year is proceeding well. Major milestones include the opening of the Luas extension to Cherrywood, the opening of the rail line to Dunboyne, the granting of the rail order for metro North, the publication of rail order applications for DART underground, Luas Broombridge and metro west and the ongoing construction and installation of a wide range of projects throughout the seven local authority areas in the region.

On public transport services, since establishment we have been actively implementing new contracts with the CIE companies who under these contracts are providing public transport services subsidised by the authority. In 2010, the authority provided subvention of €276 billion to the three operators, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Éireann. Our contraction role involves monitoring the performance of the operators in terms of punctuality, number of services, customer information and other matters, approval of all service changes and fares. We also have powers to direct service changes. Each quarter, a portion of subsidy is dependent on satisfactory performance. The operators' performance reports are placed on our website. For the two quarters analysed to date performance payments have been made to all operators as contractual requirements have been met.

Our plans now are to delve in more detail into the cost allocations and service planning of the operators. We have engaged a financial accountancy firm that will ensure, in particular in respect of the bus companies, that appropriate separation of costs is made between their subsidised and commercial services and that their subsidies are appropriately applied. We are also in the process of procuring specialist advisers who will supplement our transport expertise to examine bus and rail services to ensure they are of a type and quality that best meet the needs of consumers. As a start, early in 2011 we will review rural bus services in the south east region. Based on that review, we will continue our review programme across the country. We also plan to review city bus services in Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

On the rail side, we plan to commence a review of the Dublin-Galway line service and to then continue to review other inter city and rural services. The year 2010 has been challenging for all operators, including those in receipt of State subsidy. The economic recession has reduced patronage significantly since 2008. The subsidy available in 2010 was more than 10% lower than in 2009 and fuel duty rebate is no longer available. Each of the operating companies has engaged in substantial cost rationalisation and efficiency drives resulting in more than 400 changes of services being processed through the authority for approval during the past nine months.

The authority established a methodology for the evaluation of social benefits to be used in particular circumstances where the public subsidy needs to be prioritised. Methodologies are used by operators as required by the authority. When operators are examining choices for rationalising services a formalised assessment of the social value of the services concerned supports good decision making. As this is the first methodology of its kind for public transport in Ireland we will pilot it for a period and where necessary will adapt it based on experience gained. The methodology is also available for download on our website.

On integration measures, one of the National Transport Authority's key objectives is to improve the provision of travel information to the public. We wish to make it easier for public transport users, including visitors to Ireland, to recognise and interact more effectively with the transport system and to have easy access to information on all aspects of travel such as timetables and journey planning. Real time bus information lets passengers know as accurately as possible when a bus is likely to arrive at a bus stop. The authority has worked with Dublin City Council to develop this new service for bus passengers in the greater Dublin area. Customers will receive the bus arrival information in a number of ways, including display signs at the busiest stops in the network, from a dedicated website that will continually update information on arrivals at all bus stops and by text. Passengers will be able to text their bus stop code, bus stop name or route to a central telephone number to receive real time bus arrival times at a particular stop. We are pleased to report today that we will launch a pilot this month at a number of locations in Dublin to test the accuracy of the systems that have been developed. In the initial phase, which will be completed by March 2011, 450 display signs will be installed at key stops in the greater Dublin area. At the end of this phase, the website and text message facility will also have been commissioned. In the next phase of 2011-12, we will roll out the system to the cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford in conjunction the local authorities in those areas.

The signs will incorporate the latest technology to ensure easy readability and will comply with disability guidelines for electronic signage. As well as providing bus arrival times, they can display service updates and messages from the bus control centre. We are also examining options to assist blind or partially sighted people to use the bus network more easily, using a combination of telephone and text services together with braille identification of individual bus stops.

On the multi-modal journey planner, the authority has commenced work on developing a national inter-modal journey planner system that will provide door to door information on available travel options for journeys within the greater Dublin area and nationally. The journey planner will work in such a way that customers will perceive the public transport network as an integrated network rather than a fragmented compilation of different operators and modes. Planning a public transport journey is currently quite frustrating in that one has to examine a number of websites of different operators to find the journey options available. Walking and cycling links are not provided and the inter-change between modes is not comprehensive. The authority's journey planner will pull all the information together into a one-stop website operated and maintained by it.

The integrated ticketing system in the greater Dublin area based on smart card technology will be introduced on a phased basis throughout 2011. The back office built by IBM has passed all tests and is now ready to support end to end testing with the transport operators. HP in association with Payzone have been appointed as the scheme's operators and are now recruiting staff, preparing the operating manuals, building the website, establishing the call centre and the retail outlets for an operations launch in summer 2011. The launch, supported by a marketing programme, will unveil a pay-as-you-go function using an e-purse for all Dublin Bus and Luas services. Following that phase during the remaining months of 2011, Irish Rail, DART and commuter rail services will be added to the scheme, as will private bus operators and Bus Éireann. The coming months will see the continuation of extensive staff testing of the single smart card. It is being tested and will then be rolled out to a small number of customers for live consumer testing of the Dublin Bus-Luas integrated annual ticket followed by the e-purse function.

At our last committee appearance, I stated that I expected that the first small customer pilot would take place in summer 2010. That was not achieved but is expected to commence next month. The overall project tasks have been rephased to minimise the impact on the next phase of testing of electronic purse integration, which will take place in the New Year. The target now for overall roll out is summer 2011.

The National Transport Authority is charged under the Dublin Transport Authority Act with developing a brand for promoting public transport. We have considered how best to use a brand to optimise the benefit for the travelling public. We do not require a new brand to be directly associated with the organisation that is the National Transport Authority. This is not an exercise in building the authority's image or credentials, rather it is about fostering the integration of Irish transport services for the benefit of the travelling public. There is a particular requirement to streamline the information flow for customers. Currently, travel information must be gathered from an unacceptably high number of different sources. We intend to address this shortcoming by developing one-stop websites supported by the new brand. This will enable people to easily plan a trip between any two points in Ireland using an online journey planner, real time passenger information, maps, timetables and links to other sites, for example, integrated tickets, real time roadworks and congestion information. The pilot launch of real time passenger information this month will see first use of this public transport brand.

Throughout 2010 the authority has been active in making statutory submissions on regional planning guidelines, development plans and local area plans. These submissions are available for viewing on our website. Themes we have highlighted include the need for settlement patterns that are not dependent on long distance commuting, the need for development consolidation to support effective public transport provision and the potential for increasing cycling and walking for short journeys in urban areas and in rural towns. Through this exercise, we have developed links with all the regional authorities and with the local authorities in the greater Dublin area. We view these links as critical and will liaise closely with regional and local authorities when undertaking our national reviews of bus and rail services.

The authority is at the final stage of preparing a draft transport strategy for the greater Dublin area. This is a long-term strategy which will inform all transport planning in the region from now until 2030. The target year for the strategy is 2030.

I apologise for disturbing Mr. Murphy, but I would like Deputy Kennedy to take the Chair as I must deal with an urgent message.

Deputy Michael Kennedy took the Chair.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

However, to ensure a robust examination of strategic transport investment, we will review out to a 2050 horizon. To date, a comprehensive consultation with stakeholders and the public has informed our preparation and we plan to publish the draft strategy for formal public consultation in January. This is also an area of our work where there is close and productive engagement with the local authorities on an ongoing weekly basis.

An unsung transport success story in Ireland has been the development of initiatives in work places, schools and communities to encourage the use of more sustainable travel, such as walking, cycling and public transport. The authority facilitates this change through a number of supporting programmes which are of modest cost but of high impact. A particular feature of these programmes is that they are built on individuals making personal choices supported by a structured programme.

The National Transport Authority operates the national smarter travel workplaces programme which supports employer organisations in encouraging more sustainable commuting and travel choices among staff. At this stage, the number of large workplaces participating has reached 66, involving 110,000 staff representing a wide variety of sectors, including for example the ESB, Microsoft, Pfizer, University College Galway, and Letterkenny General Hospital. We plan to work with 100 of the largest employers in Ireland by mid-2012, involving 250,000 staff, and then to extend the principle of workplace travel planning to smaller organisations across the country. The results from this programme are enormously encouraging. A recent comprehensive staff travel survey in the Mater Hospital, one of the first partners in the programme, has shown a 30% reduction in car usage among staff. Results from five other organisations have been received, the Department of Transport, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, South Dublin County Council, Dublin Institute of Technology, and Dublin Airport Authority and these show an average reduction of 16% single occupancy car use.

It is estimated that a fifth of the cars on the road in the morning peak are school run related. The National Transport Authority supports the green schools travel theme of An Taisce's green schools programme. The aim of the travel theme is to encourage schools to promote sustainable modes of transport to and from school. Green schools travel encourages pupils and parents to walk, cycle, park and stride, use public transport or car pool instead of using private cars on the school run. More than 650 schools are implementing this programme across the country in urban and rural locations. This involves approximately 150,000 students. A recent survey of nearly 10,000 pupils, who undertook the travel programme between 2008 and 2010, showed a 27% shift from private car use to more sustainable modes of travel to school and that there was more than a 30% increase in walking to school and a 25% increase in cycling to school. More than 80% of schools in Ireland are signed up to the green schools programme and will participate in the travel module. The programme is recognised by the United Nations as an exemplar programme and the school travel element is one of the largest and most successful programmes of its type in the world, which is great credit to the pupils, teachers and parents involved.

The authority's national car sharing website, www.carsharing.ie, is now available. The plan is to promote it first to companies and then launch it to the public in a staged manner. People can use the service in three ways: to set up car-pooling groups for their workplaces, educational institutions and neighbourhoods; to set up car-pooling groups for events such as sports fixtures and music festivals, or one-off events such as weddings or parties; and for the general public to seek or offer lifts. The website has been promoted initially with those companies participating in smarter travel workplaces and 15 organisations have signed up so far, including Accenture, Deloitte, and NUI Maynooth.

In preparing the draft guidelines for bus licensing, which we published for consultation in July, and in analysing the submissions received, we have been greatly informed of the key issues in advance of taking over this function from the Department of Transport. Commercial bus passenger services play a crucial role in the provision of public transport in the State. With this in mind, the authority is keen to see the dialogue with the industry, which commenced as part of the public consultation on the draft guidelines, maintained and nurtured. In implementing the guidelines, the authority will place the consumers' interests at the heart of decision making. The principles outlined in the guidelines will provide the basis for weighing up applications to ensure that the authority delivers on its objective of ensuring the provision of high quality, efficient, reliable and effective public transport services. In advance of taking over the licensing function, we are reviewing the best means of organising the licensing process to ensure that the indicative timescales for decisions set out in the guidelines are met, and hopefully well beaten in many instances. In 2011 we will develop a web based application system and initiate the transfer of route and stop information into a geographical information systems format.

On taxi regulation, currently we are preparing for the integration of the Commission for Taxi Regulation into the authority in December. When that function is statutorily transferred to the authority the commission's staff will become staff of the authority, the regulatory decisions will be made by the board of the authority and the current commissioner for taxi regulation will become a director of taxi regulation and become a member of the senior management team of the authority alongside the other directors. The assimilation will enable efficiencies and synergies to be achieved. For example, from the outset the corporate services and finance functions will be integrated. The authority is currently acquainting itself with the key issues, with the strategy and action plans that are in place for taxi regulation and we will listen carefully today to the views of the committee. However, members can appreciate that the regulatory function is with the commission until December and, therefore, we cannot comment on particular matters other than to carefully note the points raised.

I trust that this update on our activities has been helpful. We look forward to hearing the committee's views on issues of concern to it. We will endeavour to answer questions today and we can also follow up afterwards with responses where required.

I thank Mr. Murphy for that very comprehensive report.

I thank Mr. Murphy and his colleague for coming before the committee. To date, my interaction with the National Transport Authority has been very positive and its representatives have always returned with any information for which we have asked. I hope this continues. I have a few comments and questions.

My first comment is on behalf of people who do not live in Dublin. The impression I get from all that is being done is that Dublin is the focus and priority. Things happen first in Dublin and may then be extended to the rest of the country. This is the case whether it involves integrated ticketing, multi-modal journey planning, real time information or electric transport. As someone from Ireland's second city, I am concerned that not alone Government policy, but the focus of the National Transport Authority is almost entirely related to Dublin and its hinterland. It seems to concentrate on commuter areas around Dublin and Dublin itself. I understand this in the context of the complexities at play in Dublin - such as light rail, rail, huge numbers of taxis, buses and competition for future bus routes - because the population is so much bigger there. However, the authority is a national transport authority and no longer the Dublin Transport Authority. We need a change of emphasis to reassure people outside of the Pale that there is a national emphasis with regard to the role of the authority. To be honest, people outside of Dublin do not seem to know it exists.

The focus seems to be all on metro north, Luas, Dublin Bus and so on. All of these projects are needed and I do not suggest the authority should take its eye off the ball in Dublin. It has an important function in the capital. However, there is a suggestion on the first page of the presentation that the authority's functions under section 60 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 were extended by statutory instrument in March 2010 to apply to the cities and counties of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford and to areas in those counties. What about towns like Clonmel or Wexford or counties like Donegal? Where do they come into the picture? I do not understand where the national element is in this. It looks as if this is a Dublin authority that is extending its programmes to other big cities.

I would like some reassurance that the authority plans a national transport infrastructure as well as planning to solve Dublin's problems. I wish to hear about the interaction between the National Transport Authority and the Minister or the Department of Transport. It seems there are many similarities between what happened when the HSE was set up and the interaction between the HSE and the Department of Health and Children and the Minister. This is also the case with regard to the new structures in place for the National Transport Authority. If an Opposition spokesperson wants to ask a question on a piece of infrastructure or about bus competition or whatever, I assume we will get the same treatment as when we ask questions about the health service which are passed on to the HSE.

I want an idea of who is calling the shots. From my understanding of the National Transport Authority, significant power is vested in it about I question how money is spent and the amount of money to be spent, how funds are allocated and how it determines the subsidies paid to CIE companies and private operators if they are competing for routes. I want to ensure that the person who is elected to make decisions on transport is actually having an impact on how the NTA works. I do not know who will be Minister in the future. I ask for an explanation as to the interaction and the relationship between the NTA and the Department of Transport as regards who determines policies and budgets, who makes implementation and strategic decisions and how that relationship will develop.

I have more specific questions. There has been an embarrassing lack of car park planning regarding the Luas extension to Cherrywood. I ask the National Transport Authority to reassure the committee that this issue will be resolved as early as possible with the Railway Procurement Agency but it is ultimately the responsibility of the NTA. The notion of the extension of light rail links for commuters without providing car parking facilities is just farcical.

I have another question for which I ask for a detailed answer if possible about subvention. There is a subvention this year to CIE companies of €276 million. Does this subvention go to CIE? Is it then the job of CIE as a parent or holding company to split it between rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann? Does the NTA negotiate that subvention with the specific companies with regard to their needs? My understanding is that CIE applies for a subvention figure and then it decides how it splits it between the three companies. I welcome what the NTA said today about putting a new method in place for evaluating how subvention is paid, which routes are profitable and which are not profitable. We need to ensure absolute transparency around the provision of subventions for bus companies and for rail services because a grey area currently exists. I ask for some reassurance about the transparency on the management of the spend of €276 million this year.

I welcome the real-time information and the multi-modal journey planner. We should encourage broadband Wi-Fi connections on public transport in Dublin but also elsewhere and not as a luxury but as standard. If we are serious about providing quality public transport in Dublin - a European capital city to compete with other capital cities - we need to ensure students and business people can use communication devices on public transport. The technology is there to resolve that issue.

I will not ask questions on taxis because there is very little the authority can say about it. Has the authority a role in the school transport service? It is an expensive service being provided by Bus Éireann. Will a tendering process be introduced for the school transport service, county by county or region by region or is this solely within the remit of the Department of Transport?

Deputy Frank Fahey resumed the Chair.

I am delighted to welcome Mr. Murphy and Ms Graham. I echo Deputy Coveney's views. I noted his reference to Cork as the second city and I think that is the first time I have heard such an admission. I repeat what he said about the role and powers of the National Transport Authority. It is a good idea that this organisation brings together all the transport delivery agencies for which it will be the monitoring body with responsibility for policy and funding and to ensure projects are delivered. A structure of that nature is required.

Public representatives have had a very bad experience with organisations such as the HSE in the health sector. What will be the relationship of the National Transport Authority with public representatives and Oireachtas Members to whom the Government is responsible? It is our responsibility to hold the Government accountable for its actions. We want to know whether the Minister and the Department see the establishment of the NTA as some sort of quango to hide behind to avoid being answerable for any issues under the remit of the authority. What direct relationship will there be between the authority and public representatives such as us in order to deal with matters that come to our attention and where a decision is required? I ask for this clarification. Will it just be a case of inviting the authority to appear before this committee from time to time? Will the Minister be responsible for dealing in the House with matters pertaining to the NTA?

I commend Mr. Murphy for his presentation which shows that much good work is being undertaken. I am pleased to hear about plans for smarter travel and workplaces and the green schools projects. The integrated ticketing project has been going on forever. Can we take it this time around we are coming to a conclusion on this matter? We are about ten years dealing with it and deadlines have been postponed many times. A timescale for the roll-out of this project is by the end of 2011. I hope this will be the final implementation of integrated ticketing. Every country in the world seems to be able to put it together but we seem unable to do so.

I have a particular interest in the major projects to be overseen by the authority such as the issue of metro north, the inteconnnector, the Luas BXD and metro west. These are not just multi-million euro projects but rather multi-billion euro projects. The authority plans a transport strategy for the greater Dublin area for 2030 and 2050. What is the authority's approach to the funding of these projects? These projects were planned and initiated in a different context. We have gone a long way from the Celtic tiger era. I understand the National Transport Authority has done a revised cost-benefit analysis of metro north. That would be extremely valuable information to which the committee does not have access. As a committee involved in policy making, we would like to know the authority's thinking on those major projects that will determine the public transport context of the greater Dublin area in the years to come. All of those are major projects, but we do not know where they are in the pipeline, their cost-benefit analyses, how they fit in given that the country is in deep recession, or from where the authority takes direction on these issues. Does the authority make recommendations to the Minister on what funding might be required in the short, medium and long term or does the Minister and his Department outline what money it is prepared to give the authority? There are major issues that need to be teased out.

The subvention to CIE for 2010 was €276 million. Has the National Transport Authority got its budget for 2011 yet? What was the budget in 2009 and how does it compare to 2010? Are we on a downward spiral regarding the PSO funding available to CIE? Is Luas in receipt of a subvention at present? Is the authority responsible for any other types of subvention and deciding how they might be distributed?

The rural bus service is a major issue and Deputy Coveney mentioned that he thought there was an imbalance between the service in Dublin and that in rural areas. To have an effective rural bus service requires integration and there is a national programme at present. How will the National Transport Authority combine all the public transport services needed - as distinct from just buses - coming from the major cities to Dublin and vice versa? An enormous amount of school transport under the auspices of the Department of Education and Skills and health transport under the auspices of the HSE takes place every day. An enormous amount is spent on taxis to get elderly people to various medical treatment centres. There is great scope for an integrated bus service and I would like to understand how the authority proposes to deal with that in order that we can have a proper rural bus service in addition to the effective bus services we have in urban areas. In that context real-time passenger information and integrated ticketing are very important.

I wish to ask about the NTA public transport brand. We heard figures for the cost of Bord Gáis and the ESB rebranding themselves at up to €40 million each. When the authority talks about rebranding and rolling it out in the very near future, presumably all the work has been done and that has been put out to tender. What sort of new branding has it taken on board and what will it cost the taxpayers?

The Chairman has taken great interest in taxi regulation issue, which has been a real bone of contention since deregulation. There is a perception that we have far too many taxis, no action has been taken on wheelchair accessibility and we are going backwards rather than forwards. In the current recession it is very difficult for people to borrow money from the banks for new vehicles in the context of the nine-year scrappage scheme. Enforcement is also a major issue. Those are matters that concern the taxi industry and are constantly aired before this committee and elsewhere. The NTA will receive a substantial sum of money, some €20 million or thereabouts, in December when the transfer takes place. Will the authority take a proactive approach in dealing with the logjams and problems that are causing so much grief to the industry?

I will raise one local point if I may. Earlier today I attended a meeting to discuss Croke Park. There is no transport planning for any big events in Croke Park. All-Ireland finals attract crowds of 82,500 and we also have the Aviva Stadium with a capacity of 50,000, with both stadia in the heart of the city. The witnesses have outlined that they have responsibility for dealing with the RPA and Iarnród Éireann regarding congestion in the city. On particular weekends people pile into the Croke Park area. The rules of the road are broken and people park all over the place. No park and ride facilities are put in place and there is no attempt to organise bus services other than what the private coaches might do. There is no proper place for coaches to park and they are strewn all over the place. This is part of the transport life of the city with those two big stadia there. I presume the matter comes with the NTA's remit and that it will propose a package of proposals involving public and private operators that would seek to address the issues that are giving grief to the city on a regular basis. It is not just football matches, but also concerts with people coming right into the heart of the city where the streets are very narrow and it is very difficult to provide suitable parking.

An application for a railway order for the DART interconnector has now been submitted. The hearing will take place on 22 November. This project affecting the area between the canals close to the Liffey in the heart of the city will cost a couple of billion euro. The decision by An Bord Pleanála - all these matters go directly to that board - is that the oral hearing will take place in Tallaght which is in another jurisdiction, that of South Dublin County Council, and not in the area covered by Dublin City Council. However, all the people making submissions will come from the inner city. The hearing is likely to continue right into December in a location that is not suitable. Does the NTA have any control over the location of such oral hearings to ensure they take place relatively adjacent to the people affected by those major projects?

I thank Mr. Murphy for his very comprehensive report. Obviously integrated ticketing is welcome and long overdue. He said that the staff would be assimilated into the NTA. Given that the project will be completed shortly - we hope it will be completed in the next year or so - will all of the staff become permanent members of the National Transport Authority? Will some of them be culled? On what date is it expected that the staff will be transferred? Will it happen on 1 January?

On the assimilation of responsibility for taxi regulation by the National Transport Authority, this committee made a number of proposals to the taxi regulator. I am sure Mr. Murphy is aware of them. Will the authority accept and deal with the recommendations made by the committee in its report? Will we have to resubmit our proposals to the authority? They relate to a number of issues that have been of major concern for some time.

We all welcome the work being done on the separation of costs between subsidised and non-subsidised services. On the transparency of that approach, will the base plan be made available to the joint committee or to the general public? Perhaps Mr. Murphy can give the committee the name of the accountancy firm that has been given the contract in question.

Mr. Murphy mentioned that special advisers will be recruited to examine bus and rail services. In asking about a number of services that have been proposed by the private sector I will be parochial by mentioning the Swords express, which is a private bus service, and the proposed Malahide shuttle service. Have the delegates seen the proposals in question? Will it be necessary for those involved to resubmit the proposals they made so they can be examined in a realistic manner?

We all welcome the introduction of real-time advertisements. What parts of the city will be covered by that system? How many bus services are entailed in the pilot project?

I would like to move on to the issue of adverse competition. I am aware that those involved with the Malahide shuttle proposal made a submission to the authority. Mr. Murphy said that commuting interests will be at the peak of the authority's requirements. The Malahide shuttle proposal does not compete with an existing Dublin Bus service, in effect. The existing Dublin Bus route cannot be relied on to deliver people to Malahide train station in a way that would encourage them to use it. The number of buses provided along that route during the morning peak between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. and the evening peak between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. is inadequate. Given that the authority is supposed to serve the commuting public, does it still believe it was reasonable to turn down the Malahide shuttle proposal? We all accept that people will not use services that are unreliable or do not meet their demands. Those in the Malahide area who use the train service prefer not to use the bus service because the terminal point is not where they would like it to be. They want to be able to get to the train station within a reasonable period. The Dublin Bus services that pass through Malahide, which come from Sutton in the morning or from the airport on the return journey, do not meet the requirements of such people. I suggest that commuter needs may not be the priority in this instance.

I am not being parochial when I say metro north is the single biggest project this country will ever see. It is badly needed to take 20,000 cars off the road. Equally, many jobs will be created during its construction. The planning authority has decided that a park and ride facility should be omitted from the scheme. In its presentation, the National Transport Authority rightly made the case for such a facility to be included when plans are being drawn up for every mode of transport. This committee has also made that point. I suggest that the authority should be more vocal in articulating that view. Although I welcomed the positive decision to proceed with metro north, the exclusion of the park and ride facility seemed short-sighted. If we are to ask people to leave their cars at home and to use public transport, the provision of parking facilities in the vicinity of public transport services is a basic necessity. Alternatively, a shuttle bus service could be developed to feed into the metro network.

On orbital routes, Mr. Murphy alluded to the fact that they are necessary. No orbital routes have been developed in north Dublin. If one wants to go from Balbriggan, Skerries or Swords to Beaumont Hospital, one has to take at least two buses. The routes in question do not connect with each other within a reasonable timescale. I ask the authority to consider the needs of those who wish to travel to hospitals when orbital bus routes are being planned.

I will make a couple of brief points. An integrated transport infrastructure was supposed to be provided as part of the Good Friday Agreement, for which people on both sides of the Border voted in 1998. I am concerned that there is no evidence of integrated or joined-up thinking in the work of the National Transport Authority.

My colleague, Deputy Coveney, spoke about Bus Éireann in the context of the school transport issue. I am aware that the Department of Education and Skills is responsible for the Bus Éireann tendering system. It is envisaged that a new tendering system will come into operation in September 2011. Does the authority have a role in that regard? Perhaps the officials can clarify whether it does. Many of those who are operating under the old scheme are aware that a new scheme will be introduced. It was indicated to me that information on it would be provided before Christmas, but it does not look like that will happen. Perhaps the delegates can clarify the matter.

Is there any point in asking about integrated ticketing in Sligo? I will not waste the delegates' time if Sligo is outside their remit.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

We have a national remit with regard to integrated ticketing.

I think Sligo and west Donegal are fine.

The remit of the National Transport Authority has been extended to Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford.

It is a national body.

That is encouraging. Perhaps that can be referred to in future contributions. It is not that we are more sensitive in the north west.

They are a little bit more sensitive there.

Historically, we have been used to playing second fiddle. The north west should be mentioned in the authority's plan. I am aware that Letterkenny was mentioned in the smart programme.

The fuel rebate scheme is a significant issue in rural areas. The rebate paid to Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus is €276 million. The lifting of the rebate in service routes and school routes in rural transport areas is a big problem at the moment. Are there any plans to review or re-evaluate the scheme to try to help private operators? It is not fair that private operators which provide public services are not treated in the same vein as public operators in urban areas.

That is all I have to say. I am a little concerned by the lack of reference to areas outside Limerick. I do not mean any disrespect to Cork, Galway or Waterford when I say that. If the authority is to provide for an integrated system, it needs to bear in mind that integrated transport is one of the fundamental tenets of the Good Friday Agreement. We should seek greater connectivity between Northern Ireland and the Republic. While the National Transport Authority will clearly engage in this area, the matter has not been mentioned.

I will make three brief points. The joint committee's first report was a two year action plan to develop bus transport in Dublin and make it more viable and successful. Many of the report's recommendations were covered in Mr. Murphy's contribution. The joint committee would like to have a report from the National Transport Authority on precisely what is being done in regard to the roll-out of this plan. Some steps have been taken, including the establishment of the bus gate, an initiative which we, in the joint committee, supported. We also want new bus lanes to be opened, greater efficiency in Dublin Bus and so forth. I ask the NTA to provide a progress report in this regard.

I concur with Deputy Costello on the responsibility the authority will assume in the area of taxis. I note, however, that the delegation is unwilling to comment in detail on the issue until it has acquired these additional responsibilities at the beginning of December. We need a significant response from the National Transport Authority in regard to the issues we have raised with the Commissioner for Taxi Regulator on a number of occasions. We hope there will be a change of policy and emphasis. The authority must provide a much improved response to the issues we have raised in respect of the taxi industry.

I do not need to reiterate that the number of suicides among taxi drivers in recent months is a cause for serious concern. The joint committee has a major concern about the plight of those who provide a taxi service. We want the new transport authority to respond in a positive manner to the difficulties being experienced by taxi drivers. I will invite representatives of the authority to come before the joint committee at an early date in the new year to provide the responses we seek. This is an issue of vital importance which has taken up more of our time than any other matter. It can be solved with appropriate action if there is a will to do so. I implore the National Transport Authority to respond in a positive manner to the proposals made by the joint committee and to the case made by others, both to the authority and the Commission for Taxi Regulation, to ensure we have a better and more effective taxi service.

In regard to bus services in cities outside the capital, specifically Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford, and the smart travel proposals for these cities, the joint committee will do some work on this issue with Mr. Henry and members have visited some of the local authorities in question. I ask the National Transport Authority to place the greatest possible emphasis on the roll-out of smart travel initiatives. Galway, which I represent, can become the most successful bus transport city in Europe. As a medieval city with narrow streets, the correct type of planning, including the provision of park and ride sites on the city's periphery and the introduction of bus lanes, could remove car traffic from the city centre. I want this objective to be a major priority for the National Transport Authority and I ask the delegation to return to the joint committee with proposals on how the authority will lead this type of development in Galway and other regional cities.

I have always been a fan of the metro north project as it is important for the future of the country. However, if we are to be realistic in the current climate, questions must be asked about its feasibility. While this is a matter for the Government, a sensible short-term proposal would be the creation of a bus rapid transport, BRT, system between Dublin Airport and the city centre. This would require the introduction of tram like buses, such as those operating in other cities and planned for Belfast, to run at five minute intervals between the airport and city. These vehicles would travel through the Dublin Port tunnel and, via a new busway from the tunnel, past the Point Depot and along the quays to O'Connell Bridge. Such a system would offer a much more cost-effective mechanism for providing rapid transport to Dublin Airport in the short term. The metro plans could then proceed in the longer term. I ask Mr. Murphy to comment on the proposal.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

While I understand the point made by Deputy Coveney, it is not the intention of the National Transport Authority to have a Dublin focus. There is a difference in our legislative functions and we have a strong remit nationally.

On the public transport service side, we deal at all times with the rail and bus side. In the new year, we will have a review of services, a pilot commencing in the south-east region and a review of city bus services and rail services. All these services will gradually move across all the networks over the next two years. These developments will result in a greater engagement and more visibility.

Key to this engagement will be the local authorities, which have been left out of the public transport issue for a long time. Although they handle traffic management and deal with bus priority, they do not have a role in the services provided on the routes. They are also well aware of what are the needs of the regions they serve administratively. The regional and local authorities will be key to what we do and the authority has already developed strong links with them, which will come to fruition with regard to services.

On the particular projects, there has been a background of developing them for Dublin which is the reason they are more advanced in the capital.

On real time passenger information, work is being done to install such a system in Cork and the city should have stops with displays as well as a range of other stops linked to the website I mentioned and with a text availability.

On integrated ticketing, we agree it should move from the Dublin area to other areas. Integrated ticketing has been introduced in urban areas because it serves a particular focus in such areas. Where people move across modes and use different operators, integrated ticketing makes it easier for passengers to transfer and encourages the use of public transport. The remit of the National Transport Authority has been extended nationally. Subject to funding, I expect that we will first examine what are the possibilities in the regional cities. It will more difficult to address the issue at national level because not many integrated ticketing schemes have been developed owing to the complex arrangement of rural services. We will examine this issue.

The next phase of integrated ticketing should be introduced in cities. It will deliver real time passenger information and integrated ticketing which provides an option for transferring from bus and suburban rail modes serving the cities in question.

Journey planning will be a national project. We plan to collect information nationally and hope, in the first phase, to have a database ready that will support full national journey planning. There are more developed databases of all bus stops and bus routes for the greater Dublin area. When we unveil the journey planner - it will take about 12 months to develop - it will be a national system.

On Deputy McHugh's question, we have been in discussion with Translink and the authorities in Northern Ireland to make available an integrated journey planner between the Republic and the North.

I was asked a specific question regarding Clonmel and Waterford. Our remit on the integrated ticketing side is national. On the real time passenger information, we mentioned that the extension of functions is to the cities, their surrounding counties and contiguous areas. The statutory instrument defines contiguous areas as areas through which services may pass and may end up in the regional cities in question. This gives the authority a national remit for real time passenger information. It would be of value to have real time passenger information available at key points in a number of key towns, through which a large number of services pass. For example, we were in Clonmel recently at the regional authority. One has a number of private and public operators there and real time information providing great value.

On interaction with the Minister and the Department of Transport - Deputy Costello raised the issue as well - we are essentially an operational agency. We are given certain tasks. We have a number of policy tasks. The transport strategy is probably the key policy task which is being devolved to us. I cannot answer the question on the responsibility of the Minister in the Dáil. That is a matter for the Dáil and the Minister. We have a very close interaction with the Department. We see ourselves as delivering on national policy. It is determined at Government level and we are an agency that delivers within a remit. We have a close working relationship with the Department. We have a monthly monitoring committee meeting at which all matters are discussed. We operate within the policy environment and any changes in policy are communicated to us and we operate within that remit.

Have people moved from the Department of Transport into the National Transport Authority? For example, on the assessment of tendering for bus routes, are the same people who were dealing with that in the Department dealing with it in the authority or is the same number of people in the Department despite the fact that jobs are moving to the authority?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

There will be movement of people. Ten people have moved already from the Department. They are almost one year in our organisation. They had dealt with the capital investment side and have moved across to us.

On the bus licensing side, when the guidelines are adopted later this month and the function is transferred another 14 people will move from the Department to the authority. They will be assigned for a two-year period. The plan is that we would gradually replace those staff who would return to the Department or perhaps go to a deployment pool in the Department. We would specialise those positions from a redeployment pool in the general public sector. That is the target. In setting up our organisation the ambition always was that it would become much more specialist than the way the functions were discharged previously and that we should have an opportunity for getting over the hump of doing the functions but gradually specialise the organisation and fill specialist posts. The plan is that we will gradually replace those 24 staff from the public sector redeployment pool.

Will they have a new focus? I hope they will not continue with the antiquated views of the Department.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Of course, they will have a new focus. It is easily achieved by the organisation. One is bolting together a range of functions. One of the key jobs Ms Graham and I have to do is set up a whole new culture. There is a whole new ethos in our organisation and how we operate. The ten staff who moved already from the Department integrated completely into a whole new arrangement in the way we relate to delivery agencies. We are more proactive and interrogative. They have to report to guidelines. The same will happen with the bus licensing side. The guidelines will frame what we do in that regard. The ethos we wish to encourage, which is to protect consumers' interests not necessarily for the protection of the PSO service or other existing commercial operators. Consumer interest is at the heart of what we do. We will operate the Act and the guidelines accordingly. Our challenge is to ensure that people operate to a new ethos in the organisation.

Will the office of the taxi regulator move to the authority?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes. That will move across.

Will all of the staff of the regulator move?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes, all of the people will move.

Including those responsible for enforcement?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Everybody.

Will the authority be looking for new premises?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Not for the consolidation of the regulator's staff. We are taking on staff from the Department who are still in offices other than the core Dublin Transportation Office. In taking on the 14 new staff from the Department and seven from the integrated ticketing section we asked the OPW to source OPW offices for us. In late November or December we will move to an OPW office in Harcourt Street. We will consolidate all of the functions in that office. The taxi regulator has a long lease and it would not provide value for money to break it. We are within five minutes walk of that office. We are integrating corporate affairs, finance, the website links and ensuring that the function of the taxi regulator is seen as a directorate of the authority.

On the Luas extension to Cherrywood, the point is well made on car parking. We are working with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and the RPA to resolve the issue. The key point is that the land that could be used for car parking is held by private developers. The land in Cherrywood was not acquired by the RPA at the time of making the rail order because it was excessively expensive. The developers cannot finish their developments and their loans are with NAMA so we cannot complete the roads that would allow bus turning movements and car parking. We are examining the matter with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. The RPA has achieved planning permission for car parking in Carrickmines. Subject to no objections, that should be completed and come on-stream in late spring 2011.

Deputy Coveney asked for a detailed answer on the subvention. On the distribution of the €276 million, €155 million goes to Irish Rail, €76 million to-----

Can we put a temporary solution in place for car parking on the extension of the Luas line?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

No. We are trying to see whether we can do something as quickly as possible at the Cherrywood end. I have talked to-----

Was the problem not predicted before the line was opened?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

There was no solution at that point. One might ask whether we are more exercised now because it is open. That is not the case. The problem was not resolved before. I do not know whether it will be possible to resolve it now. The RPA has met with NAMA on the issues. We are meeting again with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to see whether a solution can be found.

Surely if people could park on the field it would solve the problem.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

The land is not owned by the RPA or Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

I know. The site is owned by NAMA. I presume it is not getting an income on it. There is no joined-up thinking on the matter. People park in estates where they create havoc for residents. A pay and display system is the only way one could solve that problem. Given that parking is needed, surely someone in NAMA could agree to rent out a field at zero cost to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council if it agreed to put in hard-core.

NAMA is giving money back to developers at present even in the case of non-performing loans. They are building pieces of infrastructure so that existing assets might be able to be moved along. Surely it is possible to talk to NAMA and get it to negotiate with the developer to sort out the matter in the short term.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I have no disagreement with the realistic, common sense points members are making. There were impediments previously. There are still impediments. The question is whether those impediments can be resolved if people come together to discuss the matter. That is the objective of the exercise at the moment. Ms Graham has pointed out that planning permission would be needed for a development which would partly delay the introduction of parking.

Have we not even looked for planning permission for car parking facilities attached to the Cherrywood line yet?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes, there is planning approval for car parking in Carrickmines, subject to it not being appealed to An Bord Pleanála.

Was a privately owned site?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

It was privately owned land but the RPA came to an agreement with the landowner. The RPA prepared a planning application for which it got approval. If that is not appealed to An Bord Pleanála construction on the car park will begin in January. A contractor is ready to begin work. The plan is to have a car park in Carrickmines anyway because that is achievable. The Cherrywood car park is a more difficult challenge to resolve.

On the subvention, €155 million is going to Irish Rail, €76 million to Dublin Bus and €45 million to Bus Éireann. The question was asked about how that was determined. When those contracts were signed in December last year by the authority within its first few days, essentially it was a fait accompli in the sense that we did not have enough information to know how to distribute the subvention. It was based on previous practice and the previous splits within the CIE group. We are a bit more informed but because we have not done the accounting analysis nor the more detailed delving into what is being provided by the subsidy and what routes are profitable it will probably be just a pro rata allocation of whatever subvention we get this year to those three companies. In the coming year we will delve more into the question of whether the allocation to Irish Rail, Dublin Bus or Bus Éireann should increase or decrease. All three companies are operating in deficit and are doing so as a result of patronage decline and the loss of or drop in subvention.

Does CIE, as a parent company, apply to the National Transport Authority for funding?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

No.

Do Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann approach the authority separately and make a case for their share of the pie?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

They come to us separately. We have no contractual nexus with CIE. CIE is just a holding company and has a role in respect of property and the pension fund. Our contracts are with the three operating companies. The money goes directly to them and is applied for by them. We have been considering with them the moneys that may be needed next year and the implications for services of decreases in subventions.

This is why I asked about transparency. Full bus services are available for a couple of hours during morning and evening peak times. A subsidy is paid on them. I make my case in the context of private operators endeavouring to set up rival services. The 41X from Swords uses the Dublin Port tunnel in the morning but not in the evening. Dublin Bus makes the case that it does not want to apply under the legislation, in respect of which it would not get the subsidy. Will the accountants of the National Transport Authority compare every service, including peak services, which are full and which I presume are making a profit, and the services at midday, at which time only one or two people, if any, are on the buses?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

That is the second part of the exercise. The first part of the exercise is to ensure that by the end of this year the accounts of the companies will not have cross-subsidised commercial services using the public subsidy. It is for competition reasons that it has not occurred.

We understand better how the exclusive network service that Dublin Bus is providing operates and the parts that are profitable and result in real costs. The company has a contract for the next five years. However, in year four, we must review it and engage in public consultation to decide whether we will renew it. The next phase of work involves delving into how the network is operated and whether, in five years, it should remain wholly with Dublin Bus for another five years or whether a portion should be tendered out.

Private operators will effectively be debarred from competing for the next four years.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

That is the case under the legislation pertaining to that network of Dublin Bus. I will address the Malahide issue later; it is separate. The contract for Dublin Bus's network covers a five-year period. We will interrogate that network within that five-year period.

The school transport service is not within our remit and is explicitly excluded from it. I will return to the issue of efficiencies.

Deputy Costello asked about the role and powers of the National Transport Authority and the national remit. I hope I covered that in part. Reference was made to the HSE experience. I cannot deal with the issue of how parliamentary questions are answered in the Dáil but I hope the authority will be open to and answer queries as quickly as possible. If members want meetings, we will attend them.

If the Minister for Health and Children does not answer a question, she refers it to the HSE. We do not have a comparable arrangement with the Minister for Transport. One just gets an answer stating one's question is a matter for the National Transport Authority, National Roads Authority or another organisation.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

There is a new protocol.

Could Mr. Murphy not suggest to the Department that all queries from public representatives should be referred for answer to the National Transport Authority if the Minister does not see fit to answer them? This would save us from having to put our questions again in writing to the authority.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes. This week the Department said it developed a protocol for sending questions to us for direct answer so Deputies would not have to resubmit their questions. That will apply from now on. This will make the system more efficient in that Deputies will receive quick replies to their questions.

It is not ideal. Ideally the Minister should reply to the House. Is Mr. Murphy stating the authority will be replying to us?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes, that is it.

It is an improvement in any case.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Let me refer to the major projects, as referred to by members, including the Chairman. The process for a major project is such that, no matter when it was conceived, it must be subjected to rigorous analysis. In the case of the metro north interconnector and the Luas BXD line, three business cases have been submitted to us in accordance with correct methodology in the past six or nine months. The case for the Luas was the first to be submitted and that for the metro north interconnector was received more recently. We have assessed the business cases and have used external evaluators to do so. We signed off on them.

As of today, the business case for metro north is on our website. It is not available in a great format. It is a very large document and, therefore, we want to make it more user-friendly and break it down into individual chapters. There is redaction but we have kept it to a minimum. It is to cover the commercial cost basis. The methodology behind the analytical process and the benefit-cost ratios is set out clearly in the business case.

Is the ratio 2:1?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes, in terms of wider economic benefits. The ratio is 1.5:1 if one excludes the wider economic benefits.

It would be helpful if Mr. Murphy gave us an indication of the overall likely cost of metro north. There is much political discussion about this at present between different political parties. I and other members have called for the publication of the business plan, which we now have. However, we do not have the actual cost and the payment schedules. These figures are deemed commercially sensitive. It would be helpful if Mr. Murphy could give us an estimate, within €200 million, of the overall cost. This would be of service to the committee because there are serious political decisions to be made on the project.

If we do not know the cost, it will be impossible for Opposition parties and Government backbenchers - I presume the Minister has seen the figures - to make decisions based on what the country can afford. An estimate would at least give us an opportunity to have an honest discussion. This is probably the largest piece of infrastructure that will be built in the next ten years in Ireland. I understand it will cost between €3 billion and €4 billion. If Mr. Murphy could give us a figure, at least it would be a basis for discussion. In principle, my party is in favour of metro north. It has many positive aspects but it is very difficult to make a determination if one does not have a cost.

The reason I asked about the business plan and the cost-benefit analysis was precisely that projects such as metro north have just got planning permission, thus turning financing into a live issue. The metro north project, which will cost billions of euro, is the biggest project in the history of the State. The interconnector project will be the second biggest and it is also a multi-billion euro project. We have no access to information on the matter.

I put it to the Taoiseach in the Dáil yesterday that he should allow the type of approach adopted between the Department of Finance and the spokespersons on finance in regard to the four-year budgetary plans. He suggested that information could be made available. Whether it should be made available directly by the Department of Transport or come from the National Transport Authority needs to be determined. The information is commercially sensitive because it contains the figures. If the figures are not available in the information made available to us, we will still be working blind. Could Mr. Murphy clarify with the Department whether the spokespersons who are dealing with this matter could have an opportunity to view that information in a confidential fashion in order that they could be as briefed on it as the Minister?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I cannot give a figure for the costs. There has been a general policy not to give costs. If there is an arrangement in the Dáil, we would support anything and would be glad to facilitate that.

The PPP will not be executed but next year €75 million will be required in Exchequer funding for the enabling works and all the preparatory work prior to the financial close. That is the figure for 2011. Then after that the money is bound into defraying the construction costs of the consortium and that is the zone in which it gets into the commercial area but €75 million in public funds will be spent on the programme for metro north next year, if everything goes ahead, including the enabling and all the final preparatory works.

What about the compulsory purchase of land?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

All the public costs for the project next year will be €75 million.

The authority cannot expect people to approve the expenditure of €75 million if it does not know that it can commit to the overall project. That has been the problem in Ireland.

I ask the Deputy to allow Mr. Murphy to continue. We have set a time limit.

We requested a formula whereby we could have access to the necessary information, which is not in the public domain but which is available to the NTA, the Department and the Minister.

The Deputy has made the point and we all agree with him. We should give Mr. Murphy an opportunity to come back to us.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

We will refer back to what happened in the Dáil and what may be the decision of the Government on that.

I ask Mr. Murphy to complete his reply and if there are final questions then, we will have them.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

The interconnector, DART underground and Luas BXD business cases will also go up redacted very soon on our website - hopefully, in the next week or so. I will advise the clerk to the committee in order that she can advise the members.

I wish to address the point of the major projects somehow being redundant because of the economic downturn. All the projects have sensitivity testing in the benefit cost ratio at modest or no growth levels and they all stack up very well in terms of the benefits they produce. Furthermore, these projects are conceived with a 50 or 100-year horizon and the final testing of them is through our own transport strategy. The modelling work we are doing at the moment confirms the necessity of these projects for the region. There is a whole grain of analysis of these projects and they will not go ahead unless they stack up economically.

On the CIE company subvention, the figure in 2009 was €308 million. It is €276 million this year, which is approximately a 10.5% reduction. Luas does not receive a subvention; it is in surplus. It has been a challenge this year but the outturn for this year will mean there will be no necessity for a subvention. We do not provide other subventions.

The rural bus service operated under the Rural Transport Initiative, RTI, does not come under our remit. The Department of Transport passes the money to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and it administers the initiative. The Department is looking at this. There is a broad question about efficiencies, rural bus services, health and schools. Our remit does not include school transport or rural transport. The Department of Health and Children also provides €15 million in funding to the RTI. There have been a number of pilot studies and the Department has been talking to us about how we can achieve greater efficiency across Departments. There is a report from the Louth study which is looking at taking from that pilot what would be migrated nationally and the Department is considering that. I expect the Department will put some system in place and we may be heavily involved in that to try to extract better value from those services but I have no better news on that.

Should the authority have a role in the integration of that service, which would give it overall control of the bus service?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

While we do not have responsibility for the rural transport service, informally in the south east, as part of the associated Rosslare-Waterford service and replacement bus services, we looked at integrating the new realigned service with the RTI. We saw in that process that there were inefficiencies as the services were partly covering the same areas. We introduced an integrated timetable there and on the 370 bus route operated by Bus Éireann there has been an almost threefold increase in patronage since the realignment of the services. We want to focus again on the south east to see what can be generally extracted in better value and we will look at the rural services in that, even though they do not come within our legislative remit.

The public transport brand cost us €5,000, not €40 million.

Mr. Murphy had better start talking to the ESB and Bord Gáis.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

We have developed a brand and a website. It is no great shakes in the sense that that was never its intention. It is essentially the name of a website and a brand coding we can use on literature, integrated tickets and, eventually, if we want to, on stickers on public transport services as a stamp that this is integrated public transport in Ireland but it was a modest cost, as we were aware of that.

On taxi regulation, we are aware of the issues raised by this committee. Deputy Costello stated the wheelchair accessibility number is too large and he referred to the nine-year rule enforcement. All the issues were raised by the committee and there is no need to resubmit them to us. We will analyse them when the function comes to us and when we come back in the new year, we will have responses for the committee on those.

A €20 million fund is in place to pay for the taxi regulation function because no Exchequer money goes into the Commission for Taxi Regulation. In assimilating the commission into the authority, there will be no Exchequer provision for the staff and functions moving across. The money has to be found from that fund. There is also a gap in our own funding. When the setting up of the authority was approved by the Department of Finance, a portion of the funding was to be found from the moneys coming across from the Commission for Taxi Regulation. We will have to avail of those funds even this year to cover our running costs. We have kept our costs modest but, in essence, we have been set up with a gap in our Exchequer funding for our current ongoing costs, including staff costs. This will have to be met from the commission's surplus.

Is it intended that the authority will be self-financing through the taxi business?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

No, we will never be self-financing from the taxi business because there will always be a certain pot of Exchequer money going in covering many of our activities. There will always be a slice needed for the non-taxi functions to be drawn from the surplus.

On Croke Park, we are meeting the Croke Park authorities next week. We have written to them on the issue of transport planning. If one forgets about the issue of thousands of people coming to the stadium, significant staff also travel and it is how the authorities will manage that in order that they will not disrupt and take car parking spaces and then how they might avail of our car sharing website regionally. Local clubs might be able to reduce the number of cars coming into Dublin by availing of the website. We wrote to them formally and said we wanted to look at smarter travel management for Croke Park and we will do so. There are local authority issues and the local authority is active on this front on parking, travel, parking management, coach parking, etc. We will set up a stream of discussion with the local authority as well and when we come back the next time, we will have advanced on that.

Part of the planning permission granted to Croke Park was to provide a railway station beside it but it was never built. Will the National Transport Authority ascertain why this was not provided? Another commitment made was to provide park-and-ride facilities within a mile radius of the stadium and a link-up with Dublin City Council for car parking facilities to be open on match days. Again, nothing has been done. For example, Clonliffe College grounds can accommodate 3,500 cars. Should the coaches be there instead rather than scattered around the stadium? Integrated planning has been missing from the Croke Park redevelopment and the stadium's organisers have stonewalled every attempt to introduce a public transport element to its remit. I hope an integrated approach will be taken with the Aviva Stadium's fixtures.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

There is a large role for the local authority in this too.

There is, as well as for the Garda.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

We can take up the Deputy's concerns in a dialogue with the parties in question and revert to him on it.

I cannot comment nor have I any function regarding the location for the oral hearing and the DART interconnector.

Deputy McHugh referred to the Good Friday Agreement and I referred to the journey planner set up to facilitate an all-Ireland approach. School transport does not come under our remit. I do not know about the new tendering system. Integrated ticketing would cover the north west. The idea of integrated ticketing involves those moving across modes of transport. That is why it is more a city-based system. Its national value is much more limited. It is down to a simple electronic purse rather than having to carry cash for travelling. Over the next several years, the focus for the roll-out of integrated ticketing will be in other cities.

The south east will have the first pilot project looking at integration between public and private operators and the rural transport initiative. It will be moved across the country over the next two years so that all regions will have been analysed.

We expect seven ticketing staff to be integrated into the National Transport Authority by June 2011. That is only a portion of the Railway Procurement Agency.

Will there be redundancies?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

These would be the people needed for the operation of the system. Those working on fixed-term contracts in the development and construction phase will not be needed.

They will not be subsumed into the authority.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

No, only the cohort needed for operations.

The authority will consider the committee's report on the taxi regulator. Farrell Grant Sparks is the accounting firm we engaged on the separation of costs.

The Swords-Malahide shuttle service would need to resubmit because of new guidelines.

It recently made a submission commenting on the adverse competition clause. The authority was partly instrumental in the Department refusing the licence.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

No, absolutely not. Our office has had no role in bus licensing and will have none when the function transfers to us. We had no role in turning down the Malahide shuttle. I have never seen or talked about the application. It was a decision made by the bus licensing section in the Department.

I accept that. Will those transferring to the authority be the same officials who will examine new applications and have the same closed mind as they had in the past?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

They will be the same people but operating with different guidelines with a new head of division who will be from our organisation.

The Malahide shuttle applicant alluded to the term "adverse competition" contained in our guidelines. We will make a recommendation to our board to have this term removed.

We will consider services such as the Malahide shuttle service although they may impinge on PSO services. If that were the case, we might look at various options such as redeploying the PSO service. If a service would have disproportionate effect and causes us to have to increase subsidies or reduce services elsewhere, then it would not be in the consumers' interest. A service may also add to the transport offering in an area.

The group's survey indicated 750 people would use the service to Malahide rail station. The other services in the area are more links whose times do not correspond with train services. The Malahide shuttle proved it was not in competition and the applicant was disappointed that the adverse competition clause was used against it.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I will not comment on it but we would welcome the service re-submitting its application. If a better transport offering would be provided, we would be interested in it.

The authority begins functioning in this area in January. If the Malahide shuttle makes a submission then, will it be considered immediately and not subject to the four-year rule that Mr. Murphy earlier indicated?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

No, it would be considered immediately under our new guidelines. It made a good submission to us. It recognised PSO services must be protected so that they do not become frayed. However, that should not be at the expense of consumers when an offering of another service would add extra value to it. We hope to be able to accommodate that in our guidelines.

The application for the park-and-ride facility for metro north was refused. We have met Fingal County Council about this. It is already working with the Railway Procurement Agency to examine an alternative.

Yes, but should the authority have been more vocal about this?

I will have to let Mr. Murphy finish because we have gone well over time.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

It is part of this separation of powers. Submissions were made to An Bord Pleanála which considered all the matters and made a decision. We must live and work within that decision and find a solution.

Will another railway order have to be issued?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

It depends on whether it is done through a railway order process or a local authority statutory function.

Will that affect the project?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

A railway order will have to be issued for the depot. The park and ride facility could be handled differently by, say, the local authority. I am not too sure, but a railway order is definitely needed on the depot. They are actively preparing the material for that now and they believe they should be able to achieve a financial close in line with the planned timeframe. That will all affect the final contract with the consortium because the railway order has to be approved for the depot before finalisation.

What does that mean for the project?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

If the railway order is submitted early in 2011 and An Bord Pleanála adjudicates, within the targeted general process it would fit into the whole process for financial closure at the end of 2011. Where there are new additional orbital routes, they will be tendered and then there is the question of RTPI in areas of the city. Perhaps Ms Anne Graham might address that.

Ms Anne Graham

There was a question about where it might cover. It will cover all parts of the city and the greater Dublin area. The signs will only be on 450 stops out of the 5,000 or 6,000, and so only cover about 10%. That information will be available on the website for all stops. We hope to cover all operators, but initially we shall be starting with Dublin Bus which has the data coming from its automatic vehicle location, AVL, systems. Following that will be Bus Éireann which has AVL on its buses. We are working on the interface between that and the RTPI system. We are working towards solutions for the private operators in order that their information, if they have AVL data, can come into the RTPI signs and system as well.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

On the points the Chairman raised about the action plan to develop bus transport in Dublin, we shall do a report on the roll-out of the plan and come back to the committee on that. On the taxi side, the Chairman expects a considerable response from us. We will consider the action points the committee raised and when we come back early in the new year, we shall address those issues and answer questions in that regard. We hear what the Chairman is saying about the people providing the services.

On bus services in other cities, we have been looking at Galway this week and we are liaising closely with the local authority on that. There is a challenge in Galway at the moment with cross-city services and their reliability. A short-term fix is being examined in terms of moving to more radial terminating in the city and to ensure that reliability. We have also gone back to the Department with our views on the infrastructural investment that would support bus priority in Galway. One proposal would be a good candidate for BRT. It needs further analysis and definitely more study. There are other areas that would develop the priority better for buses, which in the event would support a better service. A good deal can happen in the Galway region in the coming years.

On metro north and its feasibility-----

Will Mr. Murphy indicate which one might be a candidate for BRT?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I cannot, but it was across from east to west. It would involve significant priority and infrastructural improvement to allow BRT to be put on it with the type of service frequency and reliability one would want.

Will Mr. Murphy come back to me on that?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I will. In response to a question, only about 20% of passengers on metro north will come from the airport, so it is not necessarily an airport metro. It will pick up people at the airport and is valuable in its business case, etc. However, 80% of the passengers will be from all other parts of the city and out in the Fingal area.

The tunnel is already being used by buses and while bus frequencies could be increased, there is no necessity to move to a BRT solution in the short term. If metro north was delayed, one could look at utilising the tunnel, the M1 and bus priority in the city for increased frequency of bus services. I would not recommend a BRT solution which requires infrastructural investment and is a fixed-type of approach for a short-term outcome such as that. We are looking at BRT in our strategy for a number of other corridors which would not have rail on them, for example. I am mindful of the Lucan, Malahide and N11 corridors on which there is very good demand priority at the moment. A case could be made for upgrading those over the next ten or 15 years to a BRT-type product.

Are there any final questions from Deputies Kennedy or Costello?

In respect of the major project business, the metro north and interconnector will come into St. Stephen's Green. The LUAS will come down O'Connell Street and all of those will be coming in quick succession after each other, right into the heart of the city. There will be ten years of disruption in the heart of the city. If they were all being done together, it would involve a shorter period of time but probably greater disruption. How will we manage to keep the city alive while these major projects are taking place within the city? Has much thought been given to that?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

A great amount of thought has been given to it. No one wants to have disruption to the extent that the city's lifeblood is sucked out of it and businesses suffer greatly. There is a very detailed traffic management plan for the metro north build which was submitted to An Bord Pleanála and to which the RPA is committed. In addition, Dublin City Council is working actively with the RPA. The Transport 21 office I mentioned, despite being an information office, will act as the focus for Dublin City Council to ensure proper traffic management through the city in the period during which the works will be taking place. At the moment an active programme is being circulated to all the businesses in the city, through both the representative organisations and on a street by street basis, showing how it will work and how premises will be kept open for deliveries and pedestrian activity, with people accessing them.

It is not a question of it being a continuous linear spine of disruption throughout the city. There will be a number of key nodes where there will be major hoardings, changes to bus services and disruption, but these will have to be managed. A very active programme is in place. There is a Transport 21 implementation group, chaired by the city manager, comprising the various agencies, the Garda and the city's traffic team. I sit on that and we meet monthly, all of us committed to keeping the city open and ensuring disruption is kept to a minimum. Dublin City Council will be actively involved with the supervisory team of the RPA in managing these contracts so that the city's traffic management team is satisfied as regards the movement of buses, pedestrians and cyclists.

My final word is: let us build metro quickly. It was originally intended to be the airport metro, but people such as I ensured by getting it out to Swords that it would have the passenger numbers to justify it. Unlike Deputy Costello, I want to see metro north built, pronto.

When it originally started it was airport LUAS and was never airport metro.

I thank Mr. Murphy and Ms Graham for a very comprehensive presentation. It was very impressive. We wish them well in their work. They certainly have a great grasp of the whole area given that the National Transport Authority is not that long in existence. Our committee would like to be co-operative and, we hope, give the NTA some good ideas. I believe it has got some good ideas today. We have engaged Mr. John Henry to assist us. One of his tasks will be to take on board some of the issues raised by members and, we hope, push them on. We want to see progress in particular areas but we want to be co-operative and supportive too. We are very supportive of all the initiatives outlined today and therefore we expect to have a positive relationship with the NTA. I thank the witnesses for giving us their time today.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 17 November 2010.
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