Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Thursday, 5 Dec 2013

Developing a Competitive and Sustainable Tourism Industry: Discussion

Chairman

The main business today is a discussion of future tourism policy. The purpose of the meeting is to engage with three separate groups on ways in which future tourism policy might be framed in order to maximise its contribution to the economy. The invitation was extended to the groups following the referral of the issues paper and a request for submissions on developing a tourism policy statement to the joint committee. As we had little doubt that all of the main tourism interests would automatically feed into the consultation process, we thought we would get a flavour of the views submitted by two groups from County Mayo and County Leitrim, as well as an academic view from Mr. Jerome Casey. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Peter Hynes, county manager, Mayo County Council; Ms Joanne Grehan, head of Mayo enterprise and investment unit, Mayo County Council; Mr. John James O'Hara from Pure Irish Life Tours in County Leitrim; and Mr. Jerome Casey, a tourism industry analyst.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise that any opening statement submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. With all of the housekeeping matters out of the way, I call on Mr. Hynes to make his opening remarks. We will hear the three presentations first and then take questions.

Mr. Peter Hynes

I thank the joint committee for its invitation; it is an honour and a privilege to be here. I am the Mayo county manager and my colleague, Ms Grehan, has a dual role. She is chief executive of the Mayo County Enterprise Board and head of our enterprise and investment unit. We will explain how they operate together.

We will speak about future tourism policy from a Mayo perspective. Members know where it is, but I remind them that it is a big county, with a population of 130,000 in an area of 5,500 sq. km approximately. It has a very extensive coastline of close to 2,000 km. We sometimes joke that, just as people in certain parts of the country think and talk about declaring independence, we have a map that shows the continental shelf under our economic control. We would take that chunk, complete with all of the oil and gas within it.

By way of context and to understand from where the tourism industry in County Mayo comes one needs to understand the place. It is a combination of heritage, people and physical place. Its heritage dates back 5,000 years. Most people have heard of the Céide Fields. There is a long tradition of religious pilgrimage, in respect of which Croke Patrick is one of the centres. The other main factor is depopulation since 1841 when the population dropped by 70%. Thankfully, it is on the way back up, but there is still a feeling, which is a strength, that a lot of people all over the globe have left a vacancy to be filled back at base. The landscape is diverse and beautiful, with history etched on every field.

When I talk about County Mayo, I use four words in terms of our vision – sustainable, inclusive, prosperous and proud. Tourism is part of all of this. Last year in the west we had 2.3 million visitors. In County Mayo there were just short of 250,000. The 2012 figures show that the tourism industry brought in €67 million and supported 2,300 jobs. Tourism is extremely important to us. The tourism industry is driven by a sense of place, ownership in the community and providing an experience that is unique for visitors. Key attractions include Ballintubber Abbey, the Foxford woollen mills, our 12 blue flag beaches and the National Museum of Irish Country Life in Turlough House, one of the few national institutions located outside The Pale and one of the most successful.

Westport is among the flagship areas. It has been transformed since the 1970s to what we see today by a combination of local authority leadership and community engagement. The Greenway is one of the success stories that has been transformed by the voluntary contribution of landowners led by the local authority. The slide shows the change that has taken place. It has become a framework for a lot of other things, including food and adventure tourism. The Gathering has been a demonstration of community power. Last year, to harness all of this, we set up an enterprise and investment unit in the local authority, which pulls together all of our efforts in that area. Tourism is one area of endeavour.

I wish to hand over to my colleague, Ms Grehan, who is head of the enterprise and investment unit.

Chairman

Because there is a vote in the Dáil Chamber we will suspend the sitting. I ask members to come back immediately after the vote. I am sorry for the interruption but democracy must take place.

Sitting suspended at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 1.20 p.m.

Mr. Peter Hynes

We set up an enterprise and investment unit over 12 months ago, headed by Ms Joanne Grehan, who will take the committee through the rest of the presentation.

Ms Joanne Grehan

The enterprise and investment unit at Mayo County Council works to deliver the environment for sustainable job creation which is important for all areas. It does this by facilitating access to all enterprise supports that are available locally and nationally. We would be the go-between the client and the supports available. The unit identifies and advocates for essential infrastructure. Mayo has Ireland West Airport which we are keen to see grow. We co-ordinate initiatives in key economic sectors. To this end, we undertook an emerging sectors report. Indications at this point are that tourism is a strong growth sector in the rural economy. With Mayo being the third largest county, it is predominantly rural. The unit will manage the transition to the local enterprise office in due course and promote the Mayo message, namely, that it is a good location for business enterprise and in which to live.

Mayo is one of Ireland’s best kept secrets and we may not have always been the best at telling our story. My previous role was with the Western Development Commission at which I co-ordinated the western regional tourism marketing programme for five counties in the west. That saw 14,000 new inbound passengers enter the region, generating €5.5 million in tourism revenue, of which €1.36 million in taxes went back to the State. By working together in partnership with the State agencies, we can deliver real results to a place.

Mayo has a population of 130,000 but a diaspora of 3.5 million around the world. We want to connect with these people who still have a strong connection with Mayo but we need to invite them to come home. The Gathering, obviously, played a large part in that. Accordingly, Mayo County Council established mayo.ie two years ago as a channel to communicate to our people around the globe. This website is an online comprehensive forum that covers news, events, information, business and tourism in Mayo and its 25 parishes. It is focused on what is happening in the county, so we can tell our people around the world what is happening in their local parishes. It also allows us to connect with our worldwide Mayo audience. We focus on business stories in the county so that people know it is a growing economy in the west. We also promote Mayo as a destination. The website also contains blogs, galleries, information on arts and crafts producers, as well as local artisanal food producers.

Over the past several months, we have developed a key strategic relationship with the National Geographic Society and its international genographic project which traces people’s DNA to extend it to the Mayo diaspora. I was one of the guinea pigs in this project and my DNA was traced back 70,000 years. I am about 2.3% Neanderthal which is slightly higher than the average.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

A good bit less than the average politician though.

Mr. Peter Hynes

Less than the average county manager too.

Ms Joanne Grehan

The majority of the website’s traffic is from North America, Canada, UK and Ireland. We have a good following on Twitter and Facebook. We have liked Dara Ó Briain, RTE news and Mayo GAA which keeps our traffic going. Of course, Mayo is still waiting for its best friend that we have not seen in a good few years even though we have been a long time trying, namely, the Sam Maguire Cup. Many of our shared posts on our Facebook page are of Mayo photographs and sporting events. Sport connects peoples to their county and Mayo has great athletes and leaders in sports.

The website needs to develop to remain fresh. We want to encapsulate and showcase Mayo as a place to live, work, locate, invest in, as well as visit and revisit. The website wants to highlight Mayo’s green, clean and sustainable environment, as Mr. Hynes pointed out. We will ensure traffic to mayo.ie will be grown and delivers on as the home of all things Mayo.

We have made a submission to the tourism policy review. We are strong on connecting the Wild Atlantic Way into the county with special observation points marked out with the team working on that. We are concentrating on outdoors, well-being and fitness activities with our national wilderness parks. Ballina is considered the salmon fishing capital of Europe. Other tourism specialties include shooting, golf, soft adventure, triathlons and spiritual tourism. Regarding the latter, we have Knock shrine and Croagh Patrick, a holy mountain. We need to start putting programmes together which will provide a health wellness and pilgrimage path. We see much potential in coastal trials. It should be noted our cliffs in Belmullet and Achill Island are higher than those in County Clare. The world kite-surfing championships were recently held in Mayo. Several web summit attendees came from Dublin to Achill Island to participate in the championship.

Up to 48% of overseas visitors to Mayo arrive through Ireland West Airport. We want to see that grow. We have been successful with building our relationships over the past several years. We have won several good bids such as the Ireland Golf Tour Operator Association conference, as well as international and national legal conferences. We believe working in partnership is key.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hynes and Ms Grehan for their presentation. I call on Mr. John James O’Hara to make his presentation.

Mr. John James O'Hara

Pure Irish Life Tours is based in Leitrim and the song “Lovely Leitrim” says it all as one of our main headliners. This summer Carrick-on-Shannon ran a 400 centenary which was very successful for the town and the county. We are developing tourism products for north Leitrim. North Leitrim has two colleges nearby, Sligo Institute of Technology and St. Angela's College of Education. We are developing a tourism network within the colleges with our international students. There are over 31,000 international students in Ireland and 50% of them are the top 2% in their home countries who won scholarships to come study in Ireland.

Another issue is how to fill our bed and breakfasts during our winter months. So many of our bed and breakfasts are going out of business because of the oversupply of hotels. The National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, hotels have 16,000 bedrooms to sell every night. That is a major problem in Sligo.

In the UK market, foreign students brought in €14 billion in 2012, which is forecast to rise to €20 billion by 2020. We must grow that market to create a winter market for our bed and breakfasts. We hosted a weekend in Castle View Bed and Breakfast in Sligo-Leitrim where we showed Ireland and Oman in the Middle East. We invited more than 80 guests from different colleges throughout Ireland from Brazil, France and Spain. Many ideas came from that network. We can learn from the people living in these markets how to sell to them. In Sligo alone we have 370 international students. They are worth over €2 million in college fees and to the local economy they are worth approximately €3 million. This market should grow to help our tourism business in the winter.

The most significant trend among US customers this year is that they want all-inclusive packages. We see a need to work closely with Scotland. The people who stayed with us this year spent six days with us, two days in Lough Erne resort and one day in Dublin. The major trend among US customers is to stay in Ireland for seven to ten days and then go on to Scotland for seven to ten days. It is an important trend for us to explore. We are developing a new website called Pure Irish Life Tours which will contain four small websites. We own domain names such as irelandandscotlandtours.com, scottishandirishtours.com, irishandscottishtours.com and scotlandtours.com. When people do Internet searches we will be at the top of the results. The 24 small websites come into one main website that can show the whole area. This is the most important project to boost the online presence of the west of Ireland.

Social media marketing is another major issue. We must examine how Fáilte Ireland markets on social media. Our main business from the US comes in at 2 a.m. because people are online at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. over there. We do not see Fáilte Ireland or Tourism Ireland online at that time of night. People are sitting down relaxing and looking at Facebook and Twitter at that time of night. That is when they are researching their holidays in Ireland.

Marketing in the Middle East is a major issue. We are working very closely with some students from Oman who are staying with us in the House over the winter. They are very bright guys. There are 200 million people in the Middle East and 80 million in the Gulf region. The tell us there are no bed and breakfasts or hotels throughout Ireland doing their type of food, halal, and marketing that abroad. People in Oman go on holidays to Salalah, their second biggest city, because of the rain. They have a big rain festival there. Ireland has any amount of rain, and that is a major issue for them. This year we had people from New Mexico, which has an annual rainfall of 5 mm. They want to leave the heat. They are not coming to Ireland for heat. We are inviting people to get away from their heat, come to Ireland, relax; they might get wet but they will enjoy it. I have put a link in my presentation to an article about the rain festival in Oman to show their marketing ploy. It is not just rain, but monsoon rain.

The Gathering was a great event which brought local people together. They enjoyed every bit of The Gathering from the music in the pubs to the whole cultural experience. The members should look at China and the different things they do every year and how they do them. For 2015 we could do "lifestyle for food" in conjunction with the World Expo in Milan, Italy. A sub-theme is food for better lifestyle. We could showcase our food, restaurants and pubs at the Expo. In 2016 we could do "music with life", in 2017 "storm of culture", 2018 "the wild green", which everybody knows, and 2019 "castles with dreams".

We have probably the most spectacular castles in the world and many countries do not have this. When we put up anything about castles we get an unreal amount of "likes" and feedback from the US. In our district alone there are six different castles. We show that to the people and explain their history. Being in the US they do not see that type of history. Why will Ireland not be one of the countries at the World Expo in Milan? I see every other country in the world there.

With paperwork and red tape it takes so long to get funding to develop activities. There should be a second mechanism, a longer-term loan. If one is setting a target over a ten-year or five-year period, one could receive 35% back after year three and year five and one would end up paying the 30% back or could re-invest it back into one's tourism business. That is a very big problem. People are finding it very difficult to get off the ground.

We are developing local networks. One of the major initiatives that has worked well for us this year is the Big Day Out in Leitrim. Three businesses have come together offering landscape walking, canoeing and electric bicycles. We did an international gathering with them involving people from all over the world. The feedback we got from that was unreal. It could be developed in many different counties, pulling together three or four businesses for one day with three or four different events. These are all ideas we are working on the north west. Our biggest problem is funding and shortage of money, so if the committee can help with that I thank the Chairman and members.

Mr. Jerome Casey

I will begin with a well-known triplet from Robert Frost, the US poet:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-----

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

For our purposes today the "I" is Daniel Morrissey, who was the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the inter-party Government from 1948 to 1951. He successfully established the IDA in 1949 on a road less travelled as it was not the usual thing to do at the time. In February 1951 he sent a memorandum to Government on the tourist industry which recommended a Department of tourism focused on policy, with the notion - heretical to the Department of Finance - of multi-annual funding; a single national tourism organisation; and independent local tourism bodies with responsibility for local tourism development and promotion. The mother and child scheme caused the Government to fall and Seán Lemass was the incoming Minister for Industry and Commerce. He did not agree with Daniel Morrissey and appointed an old civil war friend of his to Fógra Fáilte, so we then had two tourism promotion and development bodies. Later in the 1960s, Bord Fáilte established regional bodies as opposed to local bodies. These were established as subsidiaries and were gradually amalgamated into the centre, the last being Dublin Tourism approximately three years ago.

Ireland has two tourism promotion and development agencies, which is unique and against best practice in developed countries. Ireland has no structure of independent local tourism organisations, which is also against best international practice. By following Morrissey's vision and taking a road less travelled at the time, Ireland now enjoys one of the best industrial promotion agencies in the world. By not following Morrissey's advice we are faced with one of the worst performing tourism promotion agencies in the world. The documentation distributed to committee members has most of the headlines. Tourism peaked in 2007 and fell by 30%. In pure tourism numbers this was a decrease from 4 million in 2007 to 2.8 million, with a recovery this year with The Gathering to approximately 3 million. The numbers are still down approximately one quarter. Meanwhile international tourism has risen by approximately 20% so our market share has continued to fall heavily.

Promotion by Tourism Ireland is costly and, in my opinion, ineffective. A large World Tourism Organization study took place in 2009 which examined tourism spend by Government per arriving tourist. Ireland was the highest in Europe with 16 times the spend of Italy, eight times that of France and more than four times that of Britain. We recommend Tourism Ireland's budget for advertising promotion should be cut by up to €15 million and its promotional expenditure should be concentrated on social media, about which the previous speaker spoke so eloquently.

One reason Ireland's tourism promotion is expensive is whatever about the efficacy of tourism promotion spending, we do not get return tourists at the same rate. Our return tourism rate of 35% of visitors is one of the lowest in Europe. I have heard some people in the tourism industry state return figures are high in sunny countries such as Italy or France at 82%, but it is 83% in the Lake District where people go for rain and walking. There is no reason it should be as low as 35% here. It is 66% in Scotland. If we had the same level we would have twice as many tourists for the same amount of expenditure. We must examine this. Fáilte Ireland's 2011 annual report states 99% of overseas holidaymakers' expectations were met or exceeded in 2011. To make the claim 99% of anything is reached is too much, but it certainly is not the case in terms of people returning to Ireland that they are satisfied with their tourism experience. There is something gravely wrong.

In Ireland attractions and local tourism offices are staffed by full-time employees but in Scotland 43% of staff at attractions are volunteers and a further 33% are part time. Less than one quarter are full-time employees. This means a very low cost base for opening tourist attractions in rural counties in Scotland which are similar to Mayo here. When it was examined three years ago, Scotland had 298 attractions with 10,000 or more visitors, whereas Ireland had half that number at 148. There is an absolute necessity to involve local action in promoting tourism to improve the tourist experience and reduce the costs of providing it.

We also examined other benchmark tourist areas such as Amsterdam, which has 7 million tourists a year. The average employee cost in Amsterdam tourism in 2009 was €35,000. In Fáilte Ireland it was €65,000, which is twice the industrial wage. The 2011 annual report stated the salary of the CEO of Fáilte Ireland was €168,379 but an equal amount was paid in pension to the CEO to allow him retire at the age of 55. I am not sure how this increased tourism numbers or tourism revenue.

Our recommendations for tourism are based partly on Morrissey's vision but mainly on best practice elsewhere. We call for a single national tourism organisation for tourism promotion and development. Tourism Ireland's advertising budget should be cut by up to €15 million and Fáilte Ireland should be abolished as unfit for purpose. Local tourism organisations should be encouraged and part funded to establish local tourism promotion and development. Perhaps we can discuss this later. When we examined Dublin two and a half years ago, sovereign poverty meant the only way we could introduce new products was to take public buildings in use, such as Dublin Castle, and turn them to tourist use. The problem with this is Dublin Castle is occupied by the Revenue Commissioners and the Garda Síochána, which are big beasts that have been there since the 12th century and will not willingly move because a Minister wants them to do so. We have a special request to the committee to examine and perhaps recommend our proposal in this regard to co-ordinate the implementation of tourism policy. We suggest a tourism development group to help this implementation process which would be chaired by the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach. This would be similar to the Clearing House Group for the IFSC which was established successfully eight or nine years ago.

Chairman

We have heard three very provocative and articulate presentations and I thank all the witnesses. Before I go to members I wish to ask some questions. The theme of online marketing and promotion ran through the three presentations. Mr. Hynes and Ms Grehan mentioned mayo.ie. Online marketing and promoting of the county has been very good and is increasing the numbers arriving. How do they see this promotion evolving? How will they continue to increase numbers coming to the county? What is the cost of the promotion and the website? They also mentioned Ireland West Airport Knock, which is something in which I have great interest.

You mentioned that it has helped. How can you see it continuing to play a role in the future?

Mr. O'Hara, perhaps you could tell us again about the idea of web promotion. That seems to be where it is at. How has it benefited your company? You said that The Gathering was great. How many people are working for you and how has that developed? What do you see as following on from The Gathering that will help you in Leitrim? You also spoke about funding, the red tape associated with it and the way it should be done. What has your experience been until now and what has been the experience of people like you in the industry?

Mr. Casey, your presentation was certainly thought provoking. You suggest that the marketing of tourism in this country is not up to standard and that it is ineffectual. The development of Tourism Ireland, as distinct from Fáilte Ireland, was as a result of the peace agreement. Are you suggesting that there is duplication? You mentioned that there needs to be more volunteers. Are you suggesting that the many people who have jobs at the moment would effectively be sacked? How would this deal with the jobs situation? You also spoke about the cost base of the chief executives and so on. Perhaps you could expand your comments on that. You highlighted the problems with tourism marketing, but what is your solution?

Mr. Peter Hynes

One of the principles that has become apparent from our 20 years' experience in the area is to capitalise on the asset that we have. Westport, the Great Western Greenway and The Gathering are three successful examples from which we could learn, and these have been about collaboration, not competition. Westport started that with collaboration between competing hotels in one town. I know that the same happens in Kinsale and in other places as well, but collaboration is not the norm and we believe it is very important.

Another important element is ownership of the projects by people at a very local level. One of the successes of the Greenway is that it is owned by the landowners and the communities along the route, and is no longer a local authority project. That has its own challenges and problems, but it works a lot better than if we were going in trying to do something with it. I think the same is true of The Gathering, and I think this will energise things like the wild Atlantic way, because it provides a framework and that is something that the national authorities and local authorities can do. However, it is down to local service providers and communities to latch on to that framework, and if we give them the opportunity, they most definitely will do so.

A study group has just finished its work on the airport. The future of the airport is mainly going to be about growing numbers to 1.2 million or 1.3 million over the next ten years, in order to bring visitors directly into the region. With those numbers, the airport would be self sustaining and pay its own way. We think that is definitely achievable with more regional buy-in and collaboration from the trade and from the local authorities in the region.

We took an initiative with mayo.ie not just to market or advertise Mayo, but to develop real community connections. We have identified champions in all our communities around the globe and they are the people who drive it, in the same way as the people who live on the Greenway drive that. Ms Grehan has the figures on it, but it has been very successful. Finally, the face to face and the handshake are always important and I do not think we do enough of those. One of the things on which we need to fight back is the media campaign against people travelling for St. Patrick's Day and other occasions to meet with the diaspora. If any other country in the globe had the kind of access and power that we have on one day of the year, they would have the whole country decanted and out doing business and networking. While it will not be popular in certain sections of the media, it is hugely important that we start to reverse the view on that.

Ms Joanne Grehan

There were 303 gatherings in Mayo this year. We are in a very powerful position now with our communities to continue that momentum and build traction out of it. We had a business gathering with Cleveland and Cuyahoga County in Ohio. That town has 1.2 million people, of whom over 250,000 are from Mayo and specifically from Achill Island. That is the power of the connection of those people and their place and our place, which is Achill Island. On the back of that very successful tourism business gathering, a number of enterprise related pipeline leads have been generated. This is very similar to the Greenway, which provided a platform for local people to establish and grow a business and develop their own brand. If we continue these relationships and develop a mix of the online and the personal, we have an opportunity to drive that forward and see greater numbers and opportunities and benefits coming through.

Our unit in mayo.ie is just a year young at the moment, but we need to showcase our product wealth. We gave the committee a little flavour of that, but we need to push it out there. It is not just about the product; it is also about the experience. We are trying to think of innovative ways that we can do that. The cost of the website for the last two years was a benefit-in-kind cost from the local authority staff, whose IT staff designed it inhouse. We put about €5,000 into developing the brand and we would like to see that upgraded now that it has developed traction. This year, for the first time, we will see directly into that website and the social media and time challenges, which our Leitrim speaker raised, come to about €50,000. If we do not invest now when we have the numbers engaged, we are going to lose that traction.

The airport plays a central role because it connects us to so many people. The airport has relationships with airlines and operators that the communities on the ground do not. The western regional tourism marketing programme was a collaboration between five local authorities - Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon and Mayo - the Western Development Commission, and I co-ordinated it at the time, and Ireland West Airport in Knock. The counties put in €30,000 each and the WDC put in €50,000. The airport matched that total of €200,000 and Fáilte Ireland matched it on a 3:2 ratio with €600,000, which led to a total of €1 million. Tourism Ireland then leveraged its connections with airlines and tour operators internationally in designated locations that would come into the country, which cost €1.4 million. The power of all that netted the value. If we were planning that again, we would plan it much further in advance and start it much earlier, so that more people would come directly into our area.

Mr. John James O'Hara

We run Pure Life Pure Irish, a Facebook page on which we post photographs, Irish poems, jokes and culture, covering Leitrim, Sligo, Donegal, Fermanagh and parts of Mayo. We started the page this earlier this year and we have had more than 6,000 likes. We hope to join up with two other groups by Christmas, Campus.ie and goireland.com in the United States. Campus.ie is the largest student website, based in Dublin, and is used by a significant international network. Students from Oman and the other places in the Middle East have given us a level of help that is unreal. We are also working with them. We brought them to a horse sale in Leitrim. We are setting up a network with them to bring horses to Oman. We attract people to come here by showing them different aspects of life. This can make a major difference to various industries. We have no market in this country for horses, but there is a market for them in Oman. We must start somewhere. We have started with social media and the student network in the colleges. They know their countries best. In Oman the potato is a very expensive product, but one can buy them here for little or nothing. If we develop other industries - it does not just have to be tourism - it could have a major impact.

Pure Life Irish Tours is a new company that was set up last year. We work with our partner, Wild West Irish Tours in the States. We rely on tourists from the United States to give us a kick start. This year we are going directly to the market. We have had no funding until now. The company is self-funded. We have been told there is no funding in the kitty for international marketing in 2014. That is a major problem. I do the web design and we employ one person to do optimisation. We are a very small company but we are developing a network in north Leitrim. We are developing a driving route from Leitrim into Northern Ireland and back through Sligo.

Chairman

Has Mr. O'Hara's company had any help from Tourism Ireland or Enterprise Ireland?

Mr. John James O'Hara

No.

Chairman

Has Mr. O'Hara approached them?

Mr. John James O'Hara

We have approached them. We have had two or three meetings and we will have another meeting next week. They have told us they have no funding. We have been told that the funding for Leitrim Development has been already committed and that it will be at the start of 2015 before they have any funding coming through the new programmes.

Mr. Jerome Casey

The Chairman asked about the cost base of Irish tourism and whether having more volunteers involves sacking staff. The answer is no. What happens when one has a high cost base, as we have in tourism, is that all one can do is market-skimming. One cannot put on the market low-cost products, as one could do if the cost base were lower, by using volunteers. Let me give an example. Last year the Dublin tourism authority decided it would have to close the Joyce Tower in Sandycove. The funds from entry charges were not sufficient to pay the salary of the curator and the iconic tower was closed. I wrote to the then manager of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, Mr. Eoin Keegan, suggesting that if the tower was in Scotland, one would have an army of Joyce readers who would be helping out on a voluntary basis. He took this on board and organised a meeting. At present the Joyce Tower is being curated by an army of volunteers. The opening hours are longer and it is more convenient for people. There is still a professional input from the tourism body, but it is not a direct cost input from the tourism body. Coming back to my earlier point, there are twice as many small tourist attractions in Scotland as we have in Ireland. That is exactly what happens there.

More generally, I acknowledge that The Gathering was very successful. Unless it remains like a pop-up restaurant, we must put in place some funding and establish local tourist organisations that can respond to local need and opportunity. Normally, the way that is done in other countries is through local tourism organisations. In most cases, they probably cover the same area as the local county, although in areas with low numbers of tourists a couple of counties might come together. It would be a company limited by guarantee - that is the normal legal structure - so although there would be organisations such as Mr. O'Hara's and members would be paying a professional membership fee of €100 a year or a figure of that order, that would be the limit of their liability if anything went wrong.

Chairman

Is Mr. Casey referring to targeted funding specific to areas?

Mr. Jerome Casey

Yes, absolutely. If it is too much of a step for policy makers in tourism, let us please do some pilot runs in the main tourism counties, such as Dublin and the western seaboard counties of Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry and Cork. We must get a stronger footing under the kinds of initiative we have heard about in County Mayo so that there can be continuity. Fifteen years ago Scotland wanted to join the arc of prosperity consisting of Norway, Iceland and Ireland. They thought the Celtic tiger was great, although it suddenly crashed, but they took the Bord Fáilte idea - that of a strong and aggressive central development organisation - and introduced it to Scotland. It worked very badly. They unravelled it and returned to the 400 local development and tourism organisations, and that is working very well. In some places, such as the Hebrides, they depend entirely on visitors, but at least the facility is open because there is community commitment. One cannot get community commitment with a national organisation. It must have the local input. That is what Daniel Morrissey wanted and that is what we need.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Casey for his contribution.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I extend a welcome to our visitors. My brief is communication, energy and natural resources, so I seek their indulgence if some of my questions are a bit naive.

The presentation on the enterprise and investment unit was excellent. Is that common in all local authorities? When I was a member of Leitrim County Council, no similar unit existed. How does one measure the level of success? What are the performance indicators that reflect success? To what extent do the local authorities work with those providing the tourism product in the market place?

I was disappointed to note that Matt Molloy's pub did not appear on the list of famous features. I have been to that great music house once or twice.

Mr. Peter Hynes

For music?

Deputy Michael Colreavy

For music. I have known Mr. O'Hara for several years. He spoke about the need to ensure there is an online presence 24 hours a day, seven days a week and 365 days a year. He is the only human being I know who seems to be able to keep going 24/7. I ask him to develop the point about funding. He has the ideas and the contacts.

Has a lack of funding prevented growth, not so much in the touring business but in the tourism product in the Sligo-Leitrim-Donegal region? Has it affected the area covered by the tours? It was mentioned that we do not have a presence at the Milan Expo. Are there other areas in which we should invest? Has money been invested unwisely? I would like Mr. O'Hara to talk us through those few points.

I am sorry Mr. Casey is not accompanied by Mr. Felim O'Rourke. I had the pleasure of debating with him several times when he was at Sligo IT. I had hoped he would attend today so that I could renew my acquaintance with him. I ask Mr. Casey to please pass on my good wishes to Felim when next they speak.

I do not know for sure but I will hazard a guess that if representatives of Fáilte Ireland were present they would disagree with the conclusion that its functions and resources should be given to independent tourism interests. Mr. Casey has said that this is done internationally. Where? Are there validated or reliable figures showing a return for every euro invested in tourism product promotion? How much is generated in return?

My next question, which is for all the guests, reflects the fact that my brief is communications, energy and natural resources. There has been a lot of discussion about pylons and wind turbines recently. Have pylons, wind turbines and hydraulic fracturing, if introduced, the potential to damage tourism projects in Ireland?

My final question is about Mayo County Council's enterprise and investment unit. There are organisations in every county that carry out the same role as the county council. How does one ensure there is no duplication, overlaps or gaps?

Mr. Peter Hynes

A number of interesting questions were raised and the easiest question is the one about Matt Molloy's pub. We have a 20-minute presentation on Westport in which Matt Molloy's plays a central role. We are happy to share it with the Deputy.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

It is a great music house.

Mr. Peter Hynes

Yes; it is a great music house.

Let me turn to the more difficult questions. The enterprise and investment unit is not that common and we think it is unique as currently constituted. To my knowledge, other local authorities are doing similar things in slightly different ways. The common denominator among the local authorities, which forms part of Government policy and is strongly supported by us, is the notion that a whole lot more Government services should be co-ordinated through the democratically constituted local government agency and rolled out by it rather than delivered directly from the centre. That is a shared theme and is where the thinking on the enterprise and investment unit came from.

The unit comprises a number of pillars. There is the tourism and diaspora element, which we have talked to the committee about; marine and renewable energy, which is why the point about the marine resource was included in what was ostensibly a tourism presentation; inward investment, which my colleague Ms Grehan will speak about; and microenterprise support, which is also part of Ms Grehan's brief in her official day job as CEO of the Mayo County Enterprise Board. We will move into that space as Local enterprise offices LEOs, are rolled out nationwide. Ms Grehan will also deal with the question of key performance indicators.

With regard to the question on stand-alone companies, we had one called Mayo Naturally in the 1990s. Among its successes was the Mayo 5000 celebration concert in 1993, which led directly to the performance of Riverdance as the interval act at the Millstreet Eurovision Song Contest, because that was the first time its dancers and musicians came together. Sometimes there are unforeseen consequences. At present we are examining the future of the limited guarantee company. We will either stand it down and put the work back into the enterprise and investment unit or use it as a vehicle for the present enterprise and investment unit. The jury is out as we speak.

The most difficult question was on pylons, wind turbines and fracking. The council has tried to get a little ahead of the posse by developing a renewable energy strategy. It categorises areas of the county where turbines are welcome or not welcome and identifies difficult areas, and a consensus has been reached. I accept that the consensus will last until it is tested, when applications are received. The first two applications are going through the works as we speak and the consensus seems to be holding. Some areas have made it very clear that they do not want turbines. Pylons are a little more difficult because they provide power, which must be provided. The advice we have at present is that the project cannot be undergrounded. We understand that information to be correct. As a consequence we must choose either industry and jobs or preservation of the environment and emigration. The answer to the question requires a very large democratic decision which is way above my pay grade. It is a contentious and sensitive issue.

The county council is no expert on fracking but we know that fracking when properly managed, which is the consensus of the UK study, it will not and should not cause environmental damage. Unless a concerted opposition campaign to fracking takes place then fracking should not detract from the tourism product in perception terms. There is a danger that a backlash and opposition, regardless of the environmental impact, will damage and tarnish the image of the country. I am worried about the issue as we move forward.

Ms Joanne Grehan

I will start by referring to Matt Molloy's pub also. Depending on when members were in the bar, I was one of the dancers at the back shuffling away.

The enterprise and investment unit has a broad and interesting brief. The county manager has assigned an ambitious and enthusiastic team to the unit. We have been very fortunate and a lot of hard work has been done over the year. The only measurement that we have been asked for is jobs, by which I mean the retention of jobs, support for jobs and jobs growth. To that end, we have networked ourselves in many different places and as far and near as we can. We have set up think tanks in different locations to challenge us to think better. The think tanks comprise members of the diaspora who have done extremely well in their chosen careers, and we have one in Dublin.

This year we have sustained jobs and the county enterprise board has done a lot of work. Our greatest success this year has been last week's announcement by Northgate Information Solutions from the UK that it intends to create 150 jobs in Mayo over the next three years, including 50 jobs in the new year and 100 to be rolled out as soon as we can deliver them and in partnership with the group thereafter. That was a great coup for the county, its people, the unit and the people who supported us. We are very excited about the news. The group will return to us next week to choose a location in the county.

Jobs are a key performance indicator. The delivery of new initiatives is rated against job creation in the short, medium and long term. That is why we see tourism as being so critical and central to what we do. We view tourism as enabling us to create jobs in the short term.

I shall outline the extent to which we are out and about in communities. We are a team of 12 people, including two interns supplied through the JobBridge programme. Therefore, we cannot be everywhere all the time. As the county manager has said, there are a number of pillars. Like everybody else, we would like lots of resources.

Communication is very high on our agenda. We communicate with all of our networks and communities and with the media. We have tried to ensure they hear us when we talk about the good things that happen in the county.

We work with every single agency and ensure they know everything about what we are doing. We bring them together and talk to them. They have all been invited to and been part of the welcoming committee for groups coming to many of the initiatives we have taken this year, including science and technology week, the national geographic project, the Brehon laws symposium and the Cuyahoga trade delegation, among others.

We have almost completed a three year action plan to identify the next generation of tourism product in County Mayo. We will develop the plan into an actual strategy taking on board Mayo Naturally Limited. Our tourism officer has been pulled in many directions because of The Gathering and in working with communities. There are strategic projects such as the Greenway. In this regard, we are extending the monasteries of the Moy greenway, the Turlough House to Islandeady greenway. There are other infrastructural projects such as the Wild Atlantic Way and the Spirit of Place project. Mr. Padraig Philbin is out talking to communities all the time. We now know that we need somebody to maintain all of these infrastructural projects and mobilise all of the tourism and hospitality providers and tour operators. We have a few new projects, including the Jackie Clarke Garden project, the proposed Mary Robinson centre and Ireland's first presidential library, with the exception of the Douglas Hyde centre in Roscommon. It is an academic partnership with NUI Galway and will be a global women's leadership centre. It is something Ballina needs to capitalise on its cultural projects. To answer the question: we need somebody else on the ground to work on behalf of all of these agencies to mobilise communities.

Chairman

As we are under time pressures, I ask delegates to keep their responses brief, as I want to allow members in also.

Mr. John James O'Hara

I have two points to make. It is great to see leadership being given in County Mayo. Funding is a big problem in County Leitrim. In fairness to Leitrim Development Board, Leitrim County Council and Leitrim Tourism, they are doing their best and it is great to be able to talk to them, but they have no money available. That is a major problem. That County Leitrim has one of the highest emigration rates is unreal. In two villages in north Leitrim almost 300 young people have left, a few of whom were very interested in the tourism business. One guy had developed a stand-up paddle, SUP, board. He started two years ago and was doing very well. However, he could not obtain funding. The project could have grown much faster but was held back because of the lack of funding.

On funding for marketing, there are many mature people who have developed their own ideas but who need funding to get to the market. Such funding is not in place for 2014. Irrespective of what is made available in 2015, no funding will be available in 2014.

We will not have a bigger showcase than Milan Expo 2015. In the past couple of weeks Dubai has won the right to host Expo 2020. My idea was to relaunch The Gathering in 2020 and showcase the event in Dubai, which is one of our largest markets. The Middle East market is massive. We need to have someone on the ground there probably more than in any other place to develop that market.

Fracking is a major issue in County Louth. I cannot agree with Mayo County Council on this issue because fracking has to be stopped. From living in and talking to people in the United States, there are areas in Pennsylvania that have been desecrated. If we are to bring American tourists here and they drive past large fracking sites, they will say they can see this back home as well as the mess created. Fracking is a massive issue for tourism. There may be a spin-off initially, but afterwards when plants are up and running, there will be very little benefit. Many plants have closed in Pennsylvania because the price of gas has never been as low in the markets. It is a major issue which should be looked at.

Chairman

I invite Mr. Casey to respond.

Mr. Jerome Casey

I will convey Deputy Michael Colreavy's kind regards to Mr. Felim O'Rourke who is Bahrain and will not be back until next summer.

On the question of Fáilte Ireland, local tourism initiatives are undertaken independently. That is the way it is done in every other country we have studied. It does not mean, however, that Mayo County Council will take a major decision to invest €10 million in the Wild Atlantic Way or a section of it. I worked in Cement Roadstone, each subsidiary company of which had a limit for its managing director. The managing director of Cement Roadstone had a limit of €100,000 for excavating shovels. He submitted a purchase order for a shovel at a cost of €100,000. A young girl in the office who was new to the job said there must have been a mistake and refused the request. He was hot-headed and asked where his "blink blink" shovel was? It was a Ruston Bucyrus shovel which cost €100,000. Somebody else had a limit of €50,000.

As one cannot make decisions on small but worthy investment projects in County Leitrim - €3,000 for one or €4,000 for another - because it is totally counterproductive to gather the amount of information needed to be sent to Dublin, it has to be done locally. If it is done locally, it will help to extend the tourism product, not market skim, as happens in the case of decision-making in Dublin. Having said that, limits will be set for individual investment decisions and a budget allocated based on population and the level of dependence on tourism and so on. It is not rocket science; as it is done elsewhere, let us try it. The centralised autocratic system in place is not delivering the goods.

How much comes back from a €1 million tourism investment? There are some large figures put forward for the numbers dependent on tourism - a figure of 180,000 has been put forward. That is the figure for tourism and all other amenities such as eating, drinking and sleeping. As the tourism input is fairly small, the number dependent on tourism is not 180,000. Unfortunately, some of the tourism representatives, as well as the Minister in a radio interview ten days ago, drop all of the qualifications and just the use word "tourism". A figure of more than 190,000 was mentioned, but it is nothing like it, rather the figure is between 40,000 and 50,000. It is half the number of full-time farmers and almost double the number employed in the IFSC, but it is still not 180,000 or 190,000.

Can the provision of pylons and wind turbines and fracking damage tourism? I cannot say anything about fracking as I do not know anything about it. Mr. O'Hara has made a contribution on the matter. I cannot comment on turbines because I own a small 6 kW wind turbine. If we had time, I would tell the committee about the cost of being at the cutting edge of technology and there supposedly being a Swedish bearing. Instead there was a knock-off copy.

The guy involved went bust.

I remember looking at the proposed pylon route from Northern Ireland. If the cables are not put overground, it will add 3% to electricity prices nationally. I agree wholeheartedly with the Mayo county manager; there is no choice in this matter. It is unfortunate that we do not have more people living in villages instead of being dispersed in one-off housing in country areas that may have to accommodate structures such as pylons in the future.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I welcome our visitors and appreciate their contributions.

Let me begin with the delegation from County Mayo. I visited the county in August with my family and had the pleasure of travelling on the Greenway from Westport to Achill. It was a fantastic experience, so much so that I found myself writing a blog for my website in the bar of the hotel at the bridge to Achill. It is still available to read if anyone present wants to read it. I commend Mayo County Council for being ahead of the posse in developing the Greenway.

Our old and abandoned railway lines are national assets and comprise resources that we need to try to develop. In County Kerry, where I am from, we are trying to consider uses for the old mountain stage railway line from Farranfore to Valentia Island, focusing initially on the part running from Glenbeigh to Cahersiveen. We are also examining the Tralee-Fenit line and the Kilmorna-Listowel line so as to join up with the Great Southern Trail.

The country has potential to have a fully integrated greenway system. Perhaps this might take from the Mayo line because it led the way. My family travelled specifically to Westport to travel on the Mayo Greenway. Would it not be fantastic, however, if one could come to Ireland and spend one's entire holiday cycling on greenways? We do not necessarily need to use old, abandoned railway lines as there may be space beside some of the newer roads, provided the cycling trails could be separated from them. We have a vast network of rarely used smaller backroads that could be used for safe cycling. This could be achieved with a little work and planning. There are other resources available such as old, abandoned roads that could be used. Stretches of the old road between Tralee and Killarney are idle. Why not use them? I am sure there are such roads all over the country. This is something to consider for the future. However, we need to embrace the concept and planning now. Cycling tourism and slow tourism have a big future in this country.

The same applies to walking. I am from a rural, agricultural area and believe we really need to grasp the nettle and come to terms with the land access issue to make it easier for everyone to gain access to the countryside. At the same time, there should be a buy-in among the people who own the land. In the case of the proposed south Kerry greenway, ownership of the lands in question was assumed by the adjoining landowners when the line closed in the early 1960s. This is similar to what occurred in the 1930s when the Great Western Railway closed. A problem is that while a farmer might recognise the great benefits to his or her area of a greenway passing through his or her land, he or she will lose out on his or her single farm payment in respect of the corridor of land he or she allows to be used for it. That is not right. Someone should not lose out financially in facilitating an important asset in his or her area. There needs to be a multidepartmental approach to ensure everyone can be treated fairly. I commend Mayo County Council for its initiative and vision with regard to the Greenway.

Leitrim is a beautiful county that I have had the pleasure to visit. Do the delegates from there believe there is a regional problem in that so many visitors come to Dublin and not to the west? Last Thursday night I met in Dublin two American tourists who did not plan to travel beyond Dublin, although their dream had always been to see the fields and rustic areas. Their problem was that, for them, it was a bit too much hassle to try to get out of Dublin. That may be the perception and perhaps we need to work harder on marketing to demonstrate it is not very difficult to get from Dublin to the west or south west. The rail network has improved immensely in recent years. The motorway network is far better than it was even five years ago. Perhaps visitors to the country are not fully aware of this. There may be a perception based on the substandard roads of the past. In some places, they still are substandard. Perhaps the delegates might share their views on this issue.

I have put much thought during the years into winter tourism. Scotland serves as a good example when comparing our tourism product and marketing efforts with those of other countries. Scotland has been working on its winter tourism potential. How could we push this more? Ireland is as spectacular in the winter as it is in the summer. It has much to offer, including smaller attractions such as the quieter pubs with their turf fires at night time. How could we promote this further?

The retention of the 9% VAT rate has been welcomed universally in the tourism sector, as has the scrapping of the travel tax. Will Mr. Casey state how we fare internationally in terms of value for money? We have been doing our best in coming up with and retaining initiatives. However, have we further to go? My understanding is that we have improved immensely in recent years in terms of our international rank. Is there something more we could be doing?

The cruise sector has potential. Ireland is an island nation and we could easily have seven-day cruises around the country, albeit with some logistical planning and infrastructural development. Do the delegates recognise potential in this area?

The Gathering was a great success, as seems to be accepted. Last week I noted that there were 5.5 million trips abroad by Irish people in the first ten months of the year. Do the delegates recognise the merit in promoting a year that might be called “The Staying”, whereby a massive effort would be made to keep Irish people in the country for one year? Obviously, not all of the 5.5 million trips abroad in the first ten months of the year were for recreation but since many were, would it be worthwhile promoting an initiative aimed at getting people to stay at home to a greater extent than has been promoted in recent years? I am sure the marketing people could come up with a term much better than “The Staying”.

The return rate of one in three is quite poor. What is the reason for it? Will Mr. Casey state whether there is dissatisfaction that we do not recognise? Is it a logistical issue? Is Ireland just seen as a once-in-a-lifetime destination? How could this issue be tackled? There is great potential in this area. How do we arrive at figures such as those for Scotland and the Lake District?

Deputy Tom Fleming

I welcome the delegates who have certainly been very informative. We have heard some excellent presentations on the tourism products available in counties Mayo and Leitrim, in particular.

We all can learn something from what the group is doing. It is innovative. There is a co-ordination of the various stakeholders. They are maximising their product.

I note their statistics regarding the 3.5 million diaspora in North America. The other matter there would be regarding the marketing. The marketing is certainly functioning well, with modern technology such as Facebook and websites. Mr. Hynes remarked about the personal touch in tandem with that. In Kerry, a number of years ago there was a marketing focus on trade fairs in the cities in Britain, in particular, in England, where Bord Fáilte and Killarney Town Council sent members to promote their product for the county, in particular, for Killarney and the Ring of Kerry. That has stopped. It has been said to me by those involved that there has been a significant loss in the personal meeting of these persons to sell what they have because there is a dramatic reduction in the amount of British tourists coming into the country. Hopefully, tourism has been getting a bit of a lift from British tourists this year with The Gathering. One factor in it is that they are on our doorstep. They are so near. We probably need to change our tools of trade or marketing. I also note the World Expo in Milan and we should not miss out on such a prominent trade fair. Based on the Mayo people in America, what about the millions of Irish diaspora in Britain who, if one brought it down to a county level, also number in the millions for each county?

My other point is that it appears we are neglecting the German market. The Germans do not seem to be visiting us now. Over 20 millions Germans travel abroad every year and we are only getting 1% of that market. The Germans also are so near and they are interested in Irish culture, music and heritage. We also need to build on that.

Deputy Noel Harrington

I welcome the visitors to the committee. They made interesting presentations which were different in many ways, even though from the same region.

They might comment on an opinion I hold that we all think we are the centre of our own universe and every region, town and small area believes that it can double its tourism product merely by announcing it. Tourists will sort out their access and then they will sort out their accommodation. From wherever one comes, particularly for overseas visitors, one is limited by the access and accommodation infrastructure. Many of the issues we must deal with are exactly that there are ceilings on what we can deal with. I refer to overseas visitors because that is really what we are talking about here in terms of a national tourism product. From that point of view, is access infrastructure, whether air or ferry, an issue for both of the groups because they are in a peripheral area, like mine in west Cork, where it is an issue?

I might ask Mr. Hynes and Ms Grehan this as well. I served on Cork County Council for a number of years and one of the debates that was constantly being thrown at us was the clash between one's core functions as a local authority and the funds one spends to attract tourists to one's county. For example, if the local authority funds something, it might throw €30,000 to a worthy initiative to fund a tourism project, all of a sudden one would get a group asking should the local authority look more at its roads than at funding tourism and are there not tourism organisations to do that.

I agree with Mr. Casey's point about keep the local tourism organisations' effort as near to the community or region as possible. We had one in west Cork, West Cork Tourism, which, unfortunately, exhausted itself. We identified that one of our major problems was ferry access into Cork to serve west Cork and south Kerry, West Cork Tourism put a Herculean effort into acquiring a vessel for the Cork-Swansea route and, in the end, it failed for one or two reasons. It could have succeeded but the effort it took sucked the life from the West Cork Tourism project and it is finding it difficult to get that kick-started.

In talking about having a local tourism organisation, is there any merit in saying that Ireland is a small country and tourists come here for different reasons, for example, on golf holidays? If one were a golf enthusiast in the United States and looked online, he or she would say there are golf holidays in Cork and in Mayo, and could get a myriad of results. One could get 20 different organisations offering golf holidays. At the end of it, he or she will decide to go to Spain instead because Spain provides one golf holiday product and will direct him or her to it. Would there be any merit in identifying sectoral tourism products nationally so that, whether it is genealogy, activities, sports or city breaks, there is one port? One could be engaging and ask whether there is both a city and a genealogical interest, for example, Dublin and, maybe, Mayo, where one could tie-in both, but that it is a sectoral rather than a geographical issue. One would be defining one's product, focusing on it and providing somebody who is focused with what he or she wants.

I looked at the Pure Life Pure Irish website. Mr. O'Hara's message is strong on anti-fracking. It is only an observation - I do not want to go into the anti-fracking debate - but one point he made is it collapsed in some parts of the United States because the price of gas collapsed. That is what we want.

Mr. John James O'Hara

But we do not need it on the ground.

Deputy Noel Harrington

We would be paying three times what those in the United States are paying for energy. In making these big decisions - the committee holds another remit for energy - we are responsible to taxpayers and consumers as well. That is a big debate. Mr. O'Hara is entirely entitled to the opinion.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Michael Colreavy

The meeting on fracking will not be as placid as this one.

Chairman

We have had a little practice already. We are okay.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Noel Harrington

With the energy infrastructure, it will be a debate. One point on Mr. O'Hara's Facebook page is that if he was saying there was a big issue in Leitrim, there is something not right here. Would he think he might be doing a little damage?

Mr. John James O'Hara

Seriously, I do not.

Chairman

If it is okay, Mr. O'Hara will get a chance to respond.

Mr. John James O'Hara

All right.

Deputy Noel Harrington

Finally, this difficult issue was mentioned in a previous report. It is extraordinary that an English person will visit this country and in looking at a hotel or wherever, will not see his or her flag flying anywhere. They will see Sky and Premiership clubs being advertised on the footpath, they will see Japanese, Korean and United States flags, Cork flags, Confederate flags, county flags which make no sense to them, Munster rugby flags, every kind of an insignia and colour that goes up, bunting and Christmas lights, and they look for their own. There are 60 million people on our doorstep and it is a debate that has to be held.

Chairman

Deputy Harrington might be starting on another issue there.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I thank our guests for their presentations, which were really good and interesting. Those in County Mayo are definitely doing something right. I visited the county last year and I am aware that it is extremely vibrant and busy. Like my colleague, I also paid a visit to Matt Molloy's pub in Westport and had a fantastic night there. The town itself was buzzing. The first matter I am interested in is the historic towns initiative. I live in Youghal which, like Westport, benefited from this initiative. Will our guests from Mayo comment on the impact of the initiative on Westport?

Mr. O'Hara's presentation was excellent, as is the product itself. He made some great points with regard to winter tourism, college students and horses. He even promoted Irish weather, which is unreal. Mr. O'Hara referred to America and the fact that it is necessary to engage in marketing in respect of it on a 24-7 basis. I do not know whether he was trying to say that Tourism Ireland and Fáilte Ireland should be on duty 24-7 but perhaps they could operate on a shift basis. I am disappointed that Pure Irish Life Tours is not getting funding, particularly as it has an excellent product.

Mr. Casey made many interesting points, particularly in the context of the independent tourism organisations and international best practice. He indicated that the entire island of Ireland should be marketed and promoted by one body, Tourism Ireland. I hope that this would also involve co-operation via the North-South Ministerial Council. Mr. Casey also referred to repeat visitors and the fact that we fare very poorly in the context of encourage people to return here. Will he perhaps comment with regard to what we need to do to address this matter? Does the fact that people do not return here relate to not having enough tourist attractions? As Mr. Casey stated, Ireland has only half the number of tourist attractions as Scotland. Is there a need to engage in further development or marketing? We are trying to develop the Moore Street project and I am of the view that this would be a major asset to Dublin going forward. A previous speaker referred to price and value for money. Is the fact that there may not be great value for money one of the reasons for our not attracting repeat business?

Mr. Peter Hynes

I will be as brief as possible in replying. If I skip over anything, I ask members to bring it to my attention. I will deal with the questions and points in reverse order.

To hear compliments from people who live in Kerry and Cork is-----

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Rare.

Mr. Peter Hynes

No, it is not. Such compliments are very much appreciated. When we started our journey to try to revive towns and encourage improvements to them, one of the places to which we would have looked would have been west Cork. In particular, we would have looked to Kinsale - where Billy Houlihan was involved - and everything that happened there. When it comes to marketing and product development, Kerry is streets ahead of the remainder of the country and not just in the context of football. I am not engaging in plámás. We still seek to emulate what those in Kerry have been doing for a long time.

I am an architect by profession and I worked as town manager in Westport for ten years. I am old enough, therefore, to remember the heritage towns initiative being launched circa 1991. That initiative kicked off a focus on historic cores as being an asset rather than a liability. While the money allocated in respect of the historic towns initiative was not that great, the initiative itself has been very valuable to Westport as a branding and promotional exercise. I do not have figures to illustrate its impact. However, it was more valuable in terms of perception than in the context of the level of investment.

The first issue to which I wish to refer in the context of Deputy Harrington's comments is gas. Those who live in County Mayo happen to know a bit more about gas than their counterparts in most counties. We have come through 12 very difficult years in respect of the relevant project. No more than in war, truth was the first casualty during those 12 years. One would have had to have lived through it in order to appreciate the amount of misinformation and damaging material put out by people who, for their own reasons, opposed the project. There is a danger that the same thing will happen in the debate on fracking and this is something we need to avoid at all costs. The UK report - which is the definitive one at present - states that it if is done properly, there is no environmental damage. That is the point from which we should start.

In the context of community enterprise and employment, there is always tension with regard to where we spend our money. There is always a need to cut hedges, fill potholes or whatever. We are involved in discussing budgets at present and, on balance, the members of the council greatly appreciate the fact that our job is to cater for communities, generate employment and support enterprise. Tourism is a very fast win for everyone, including all of our elected members. That is why we have their support. The budget for this year is going to be trebled but we will have to wait and see how this is dealt with in the budget debate. As a result of the involvement of the NRA, we are less involved with roads than use to be the case and we are also withdrawing from water services, although not precipitously. This means that our role in the area of community enterprise and employment is going to be much bigger and stronger and more important than heretofore. It is Government policy to get us involved in this regard. Access is a major issue and I will ask Ms Grehan to discuss the airport and matters relating to it.

Deputy Tom Fleming referred to the personal touch. There are two aspects to this which we consider important and which should not be underestimated. The first of these is the power of the county jersey. There are times when we are stronger as regions or as a country, such as on St. Patrick's Day. However, there are other times when the county jersey paves the way into places one wishes to go. It is a question of using the jersey at the appropriate time. The power of elected representatives must also be taken into consideration. People should never underestimate the important role played by those who represent the people of a county, particularly at functions, events, etc.

It is estimated that 5% of the 70 million people across the globe who claim to be part of the Irish diaspora have roots in County Mayo. This is actually a guesstimate and the figure could be much higher.

I thank Deputy Griffin for writing his blog. Anyone who comes to County Mayo and writes a blog about it is most welcome. If he comes back, we will see if we can show our appreciation in some way. We might even get him into Matt Molloy's pub.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I was there.

Mr. Peter Hynes

Did the Deputy also visit Nevin's in Tiernaur?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Possibly.

Mr. Peter Hynes

We will certainly see to it that he goes there on his return.

We would welcome the establishment of further greenways. I have a good friend who is managing director of Foxford Woolen Mills and he informed me that he would always prefer to see a mill opening as opposed to being closed. If a mill is opening, then the market is rising. Thereafter, it is only a question of being competitive and obtaining one's slice of the action. We will attract many multiples of the current number of visitors to Ireland if we have sufficiently long networks. We are working with our counterparts in County Galway, who are seeking to have the Oughterard to Clifden line converted to a greenway. Our aim would be to try to connect this to Leenane. The route will not be entirely off-road but we will try to ensure that as much of it as possible will be in order to create the network. This would lead to the development of a greenway that would encompass a large chunk of the west coast.

If there is one specific thing we might do at these proceedings, it would be to appeal to the Department with responsibility for the single farm payment scheme to review the way in which it operates. Removing or reducing single farm payments has the potential to be an extremely precipitous move in respect of farmers who - for no return - have donated a small portion of their land for the common good. It is really important that this matter is tackled. Again, this goes to Government policy on the alignment of Departments and services at local level. The latter cannot be progressed quickly enough.

Ms Joanne Grehan

I will be extremely brief. Our colleagues who were involved in the original greenway in County Mayo, Padraig Philbin and Anna O'Connor, have visited County Kerry, County Galway and a number of other locations in order to communicate with the groups there.

If members wish to learn about the greenway experience in County Mayo, it is available for them to tap into.

On cruising and winter tourism, I am a firm believer that the glass is half full and anything is possible, provided one has the right people around the table. We are a coastal county in an island economy and we must make more of our marine resource for leisure and the economy.

I am grateful for the information on the blog, to which I will definitely direct people on the Mayo.ie website.

Deputy Tom Fleming is correct on the issue of mobilisation in the United Kingdom market. It was remiss of us not to mention it. We are working with all chapters of the Mayo Association. Last week, we joined 600 people from Mayo who travelled from Manchester, Birmingham and many other communities in the United Kingdom to attend an event in London. We are tapping into this community. On the importance of access, Ireland West Airport Knock operates routes to all these locations and people are being brought here from those markets. We believe in having a presence on the ground and the mobilisation officer will do some of this work in the UK. Access is critical and the statistics show, as Mr. Casey will testify, that if one brings people directly into a region, they are magnetised within a certain radius of their entry point for three, five or seven days. From that perspective alone, regional access is critical.

In terms of return visitors, referrals and the reason we are not getting repeat business, I am always struck by our experience in this regard. To speak to Deputy Tom Fleming's point on the need to offer a sectoral as opposed to geographical experience, I drive a Cork registered car which was sold to me by Liam Hassett, a Kerryman, on match day a couple of years ago when Kerry met Dublin. If communities in counties Dublin, Kerry and Cork were to refer tourists to other areas, for example, to Mayo for genealogy reasons or to Cork for water based recreation, their experience would improve, which may speak to Mr. Casey's point about our lack of return visitors.

Mr. John James O'Hara

Deputy Brendan Griffin referred to travelling from Dublin to the west. Packages are a major issue in this area. This year, we met a 92 year old man at Dublin Airport and brought him west. I could not believe his age but he was on the Wild West Ireland tour with which we are involved. Every two weeks, we have a dinner and banquet in the house with music and so forth. Finding the man in question sitting back in a chair, relaxing with a glass of the good stuff, I asked him if he was enjoying his holiday, to which he replied, "Where else could I be at 92 years of age?" He owns a major company in the United States and has written a great deal about Ireland since returning home.

Blogging is great because it is important in social media to keep pushing different areas. I hope Deputy Griffin will write about Country Leitrim the next time he visits. I hope Deputy Harrington likes the webpage.

Deputy Tom Fleming referred to Germany, which is our main market. Last week, we had two hotel owners, one from Russia and one from Bulgaria, staying in the house. Chatting about the different markets I learned that bed and breakfast is available for €6 per night in the Bulgarian's 20 bedroom hotel on the coast. We heard great things on the night about different cultures, including the different things Russians like. We will meet again in February and a friend, who owns a place in France, will join us in Bulgaria. The purpose of the visit is to learn new things about different cultures and how we can help them and they can help us. To help and have are great things. To respond to Deputy McLellan, there is much that can be developed outside tourism sites, for example, the idea of promoting horses as a tourism product. We have many different products and once we get people here, we can show them different things. My company markets agriculture, the marts and so forth. When we lived in the United States we used to visit cattle markets at weekends because we come from a farming background. It was good to visit them there and when we bring people here it is good to show them different things. One does not always have to show them the main sights; one can also show them hidden gems. One of the favourite excursions of the tourists we have is standing on the shore in County Sligo and seeing the power of the Atlantic Ocean. We hope people will visit the entire County Leitrim. As Larry Cunningham would say, Leitrim is lovely and we would welcome members to the county.

Mr. Jerome Casey

Deputy Griffin asked what Ireland can offer compared to Scotland. To give an example, Dublin Castle lies on the main tourist route from the Book of Kells in Trinity College to the Guinness Storehouse. The site generates revenue from tourism of €500,000 per annum, whereas Edinburgh Castle generates annual revenue of €20 million. Edinburgh's attractions are not as stunning as some the attractions in Dublin would be if they were developed. For instance, one cannot visit the Record Tower in Dublin Castle where Red Hugh O'Donnell was imprisoned because the Garda Museum, which nobody visits, blocks access to the stairs. We are discussing this issue but given the rate of progress the Office of Public Works has achieved in recent years in turning Dublin Castle into a tourist attraction, it probably will be 20 years before revenue from the site reaches €20 million. The Secretary General to the Taoiseach must put his shoulder to the wheel in that regard.

The Deputies referred to value for money for tourists in Ireland by international comparison. This has improved in recent years. The first issues that arises is access. While there are access problems in some country areas, the two main access points have improved in recent years. The decision in the budget to abolish the air travel tax and the creation of new routes at Shannon and Dublin airports have had an immediate impact. Successful efforts to increase the number of tourists this year were due in part to supply side improvements, in other words, better access from the United States.

Ireland has probably some of the cheapest grade 3 and 4 accommodation in Europe. I will not make comparisons with Bulgaria as I am referring to mainstream accommodation. The reason for the low prices is the recession and the number of hotels in receivership. Accommodation costs have not been a tourist impediment in recent years.

We compared Dublin, Edinburgh and Amsterdam for eating out and found that Dublin was cheaper for single Michelin star restaurants, whereas Amsterdam had many more bib gourmand restaurants where one can have three courses for €29. While I have no evidence on which to base my view, I suggest that the adjustment in the menu prices of restaurants since the recession has been much quicker in Dublin than in rural areas.

On repeat visitors and ways to improve the tourist experience, we need the main tourist attractions to be organised locally. As one of my colleagues says, it takes a village to rear a child and a locality to give a good tourist experience. We also need more tourist attractions and to achieve this we need people to staff them cheaply. We have only two or three major regional museums, yet the national collections are stored primarily in warehouses in County Kerry. We need local authorities to investigate what could be provided to them on loan if they were to establish a local museum with 70% volunteer staffing.

We need to extend the value for money. It is not attracting people now. Perhaps there is a legacy issue because we were perceived as being very expensive. We need to work harder to make those fundamental changes.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Would it be possible to get a copy of the submission by Mayo County Council? I do not want to leave the points about Rossport uncontested. Many of us take the view that Rossport was due to mismanagement on the part of the Government and the company. The issue was handled badly.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Do the witnesses think the idea of the staying, that is, a year in which Irish people are encouraged to holiday at home is worth exploring or is it something that is probably unachievable?

Mr. Peter Hynes

It is certainly worth exploring. One of the ideas that is starting to gain currency is that The Gathering cannot be left behind. Threads from The Gathering need to be woven in some way across the country over the next several years until we decide when the next gathering climax or peak will be. The staying could be one of the themes we explore.

Mr. John James O'Hara

We could develop a different theme every year over the next five years. The staying is a good idea.

Mr. Jerome Casey

I do not know. I think it would be difficult.

Chairman

From what the Minister has said in a policy sense, we could not simply repeat The Gathering next year. The idea of the staying is a good one but that does not mean we cannot organise some event to highlight the attractions on offer in this country.

Mr. John James O'Hara

One of the main things we could highlight in Ireland is green, such as our green grass. We also have various other attractions, such as food, music and culture. We have a great heritage.

Chairman

I was delighted to learn that all our southern Deputies have visited the west. I can inform them that I have visited counties Kerry and Cork. When I was in County Kerry during the summer, I met a Galway person who said the last time I was there I was bringing the Sam Maguire down. Bringing the Sam Maguire to Kerry is like bringing sand to the desert but I did it. As my father comes from County Cork, we visit that county regularly. That reminds us how small is Ireland and how we can help each other.

I sincerely thank our witnesses, Mr. Peter Hynes, Ms Joanne Grehan, Mr. John James O'Hara and Mr. Jerome Casey, for their thought provoking contributions. This meeting has been arranged in the context of the ongoing review of the tourism industry. While some of the witnesses indicated that they have made submissions directly on the review, the committee decided it was important to get a feel for their views because we will be sharing our own thoughts with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. Today's presentations were very helpful in that regard.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.15 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 11 December 2013.