Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 30 Apr 2014

Community Broadcasting: Discussion

Chairman

The purpose of the meeting is to engage with the Community Radio Forum of Ireland, CRAOL, Dublin Community TV, Irish TV and Northern Visions on the proposed broadcasting Bill and broadcasting charge. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Mr. Declan Gibbons and Ms Sally Galiana from CRAOL; Dr. Eddie Brennan and Mr. Ciaran Moore from Dublin Community TV; Mr. Pierce O'Reilly from Irish TV; and Ms Marilyn Hyndman from Northern Visions. I draw their attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise that the opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

As members are aware, we have two not-for-profit community groups represented. In addition, Irish TV is a commercial entity. Obviously, there is a lot happening in broadcasting all over the spectrum, including the drafting of a broadcasting Bill that is due to be introduced. It is important, therefore, to hear different perspectives and about the needs of each group and to see if there are similarities between them. RTE representatives have also appeared before the committee and we will be bringing in more groups at a later stage to form an overall opinion on what we have heard and will hear. In that context, I call on Mr. Gibbons from CRAOL to address the committee.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

I thank the Chairman and the other members of the joint committee for inviting us. This is an important opportunity. My colleague, Ms Sally Galiana, is co-ordinator of Near FM in north-east Dublin She is also president of Amarc-Europe which effectively is the organisation for community radio stations across Europe. From that point of view, she brings a great deal of knowledge with her.

I am the station manager at Community Radio, Youghal, in east Cork and we cover part of west Waterford as well. What we hope to achieve today is to make the committee more aware about what community radio is all about and also to explain why we think it could and should be supported.

Ms. Sally Galiana

Community radio is the third sector in Irish media. It is legally defined as not-for-profit, democratically owned and controlled by local citizens. It has been established to be a community development resource. Programming is based on providing a social benefit to the community. It is designed to support local democracy, provide technological training and assist job creation.

Community radio is diversity, as members can see today. With a minimum of 40% speech, an open door policy and proactive social inclusion, a rich range of voices and perspectives from different social, economic and cultural backgrounds have a chance to express themselves and to be heard.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

Community radio is also about plurality. The 22 fully licensed stations - a number which is growing - are, by law, representative of and accountable to the communities they serve. They cannot be bought or sold, which is important in principle and also a legal requirement. They offer a potential counterbalance to the increasing concentration of media ownership and control. Community radio is about infrastructure. It supports all other community activities, whether it be raising awareness, recruiting volunteers, promoting fund-raising or sharing experiences.

Ms. Sally Galiana

So far, 622 people have been certified by FETAC and QQI in community radio skills since 2011, underpinning its effectiveness for personal and professional development. It is a source of new blood for other broadcasting sectors. With skills in research, communications and technology, it is a source of key work and life skills for the unemployed, minority groups and those under-represented in mainstream media. The absence of play list restrictions means high levels of exposure for new Irish music and artists.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

Community radio is also about depth. Speech ratios of 40% to 70%, an average of 100 active presenters and producers per station and unique schedule structures facilitate specialist programming and proper coverage of topics from environment to history, farming to food, punk to jazz and youth affairs to migrant communities. They are not just touched on in short packages but covered in whole programmes.

What is important is that community radio is regulated. It is subject to explicit and unique community radio specific restrictions on social benefit, schedules, speech-to-music ratio, ownership and control, and advertising. These preserve the community radio ethos while all the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland standards and codes that apply to other broadcasters are applicable to community radio also.

Ms. Sally Galiana

Community radio is about innovation. The lack of commercial pressures means that new programme formats are explored, new ways of making programmes are tried out, new ways of empowering people are tested and new spaces for experiments in radio drama, location broadcasting and documentaries are opened up. All this can only be sustained and expanded where community radio is properly resourced.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

As Sally said in opening, community radio is a distinct third sector in the Irish media. It is legally defined as not-for-profit and democratically owned and controlled by local citizens. It is more than just another media sector. It has been established to be a community development resource. We often remind ourselves that community radio is 10% about radio and 90% about community. Programming is based on the provision of a social benefit to the community and support for local democracy, technological training and job creation.

Community radio has been identified by several European states as an extension of public service broadcasting. It is recognised by the European Parliament and the Council of Europe's committee of Ministers as a valuable resource.

Ms. Sally Galiana

In a recent Red C poll, three out of every four people agreed that community radio gave us a space to tell our own stories, gave a voice to the rarely heard, and shared knowledge and experience. Of every four people, three also felt that community radio reduced isolation. This response was highest among 45 to 54 year olds in town catchment areas. Three out of four people also believed that community radio acts as a vital source of information and reinforces our sense of community. This was highest among 25 to 34 year olds.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

Through collaboration with the BAI, CRAOL has created a robust, effective community media model which delivers a range of services to each community. To continue, it requires the stability of regular, assured operational funding. Within the existing 22 community radio stations, there are more than 100 people employed on a full or part-time basis. Each station also has an average of approximately 100 volunteers, which is a total of more than 2,200 volunteers active each week throughout the country. The Red C poll to which Sally referred shows that we are broadcasting to 307,000 listeners, or 10% of the total radio market. It is not some tiny niche. The numbers would rise proportionately with an increase in active stations. There are a large number of other community radio projects throughout the country which are ready to go but are blocked by lack of access to secure funding.

Ms. Sally Galiana

Community radio receives funds from a diversity of sources. The Pobal community service programme and community employment are two of the main sources for staff funding. The Departments with responsibility for education, the environment and health provide grants from time to time. Some stations draw down EU grants while others can access local advertising. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's Sound and Vision scheme provides funds for programme-making but not for operating costs. Thus, the scheme funds the product but not the process. Stations have to find ways to exist before they can make such programmes. This diverse and uncertain approach to funding restricts the potential of community radio.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

Community radio needs a more reliable and adequate funding approach. We believe the introduction of the public service broadcasting charge is an opportunity to put in place a dependable and adequate funding model. The report of the value for money policy review group on the public service broadcasting charge shows that all options will provide a surplus on the current licence fee collection. Therefore, without any effect on the funding of RTE, a portion of this sum should be used to support community media. This is the other public service media sector that is not-for-profit.

Ms. Sally Galiana

Many of our European neighbours, including France, Austria and Denmark, have, with the approval of Brussels, adopted a mixture of funding models to support the development of community media. Regarding the sum which should be allocated annually, I note the example of a grant-in-aid scheme in Denmark operating with an annual fund of €6.7 million for community media.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

To achieve a figure like that here would require an adequate percentage being levied on the broadcast charge and earmarked as grant-in-aid for community media development. The fund could possibly be disbursed through the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland or the proposed local community development committees. However, the distribution method is an administrative issue. The important thing for us is to establish the beneficial community and public service nature of community radio and to agree that operational funding through the public service broadcasting charge would be good value for money. However it is distributed, the grant-in-aid fund should be clearly identified as a fund to support both existing community stations and to encourage the emergence of new community media where they do not exist currently.

Ms. Sally Galiana

I turn to the potentials. Funding community radio is a means to fund a range of important community development functions. Each community radio station could, if properly resourced, employ five to six staff to support the hundreds of local volunteers who will, in turn, offer a widening array of media services to the community. This can assist the cultural, sporting, charitable and developmental life of each community.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

On the benefit to the State, the contribution of community radio to community development is already well documented in research commissioned by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. Through a judicious deployment of public funds, RTE and community media can thrive and provide an enhanced form of public service broadcasting. Community radio is host to a wide range of diversity of ownership and socioeconomic attitudes.

Community media are best placed to provide for and protect a plurality of opinions. A network of independent, communally owned media will be unavailable in any private takeover and, with adequate financial support, can add to media diversity.

Ms Sally Galiana

For a modest investment from the public service broadcasting charge, several jobs could be sustained in existing stations and more created in each new community media project. Many of these jobs would be in areas of high unemployment. By a creative deployment of a small portion of the public service broadcasting charge, community media could add to the Government's jobs initiative.

Member stations in the CRAOL network already provide both formal and informal training as a natural part of their activities. With a secure base, we could see this activity increase, taking in more focused skills development in the digital, communications and enterprise areas.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

Returning to Europe, we draw the committee's attention to the 2008 European Parliament resolution which stresses that community media help to strengthen media pluralism and calls on member states to support community media more actively in order to ensure media pluralism. It also highlights that the service provided by community media is to be assessed in the social value it represents and that funding must come principally from national, local and other sources.

Ms Sally Galiana

We thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to address it. We ask it to recommend to the Minister that he include a clear direction in the Act to allocate a portion of the public service broadcasting charge to sustain and develop community media.

Chairman

I invite Dr. Brennan to make his contribution. As all members have received the presentations, perhaps Dr. Brennan might confine his contribution to five or six minutes in order that we can engage in more questions.

Dr. Eddie Brennan

I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for giving us this opportunity to address it in the context of forthcoming legislation. I am the chairman of Dublin Community Television, DCTV. I am joined by Mr. Ciaran Moore, the former manager of DCTV, and Ms Marilyn Hyndman, the manager of Northern Visions TV in Belfast.

The activities of our colleagues involved in community radio predate ours and we learned much from them. They raised points about the need for reliable funding. Funding that recognises the need to cover training and mentoring, as well as the cost of content production, is an essential part of supporting community media. In this presentation I will quickly outline our view of community television and its social significance. To further the benefits to be gained from community television, we propose two ideas to be considered by the committee in the context of forthcoming legislation. The first concerns the creation of local funding for community broadcasting. The second concerns the delivery of a national community channel alongside three other Saorview channels.

I will speak briefly about the social benefits of community broadcasting. For almost a century, broadcasting has helped to integrate local and national communities. For example, the papal visit in 1979 and the 1990 World Cup created a sense of a shared experience and identity. Today, such shared media events are rare. With a multiplication of channels, platforms and viewing options, people now share very few media experiences. The media ties that have helped to bind local and national communities are unravelling. Social media like YouTube, Twitter and Facebook allow people to voice opinions, offer arguments and showcase their creativity. They allow them to speak as active producers, rather than remaining passive consumers, as in the case of old media. People now commonly expect media to be participatory and give them a voice. Unfortunately, these platforms can also tend towards atomisation and a polarised cacophony of opinion without any real debate. Social media allow everyone to speak. However, they offer no guarantee that one will be heard. Community broadcasting offers a compromise position between people being integrated but passive, as in the case of traditional models of broadcasting, and active and atomised in terms of new social media.

DCTV has worked hard to make engaging, well produced programmes. It is important to mention that, as in the case of community radio, DCTV is owned by a co-operative. It is owned by its members. Its key objectives are empowerment, diversity and participation. The process of making television, training people and building skills and confidence in local communities is central. It is often more important than the popularity, critical reception or technical polish of the finished product. Over six years, more than 3,000 people were involved in producing hundreds of hours of television with DCTV. We have included a list of notable productions in supporting material for the committee's consideration. While this television may have had varying production values and audience appeal, we tried to ensure it was "good television" in the sense that it empowered those who made it. This raises a key limitation in policy and funding which, to date, has been guided by an understanding of "good television" that is limited to programmes as they appear on screen. Policy has effectively been blind to the benefits of engaging people in production, training them in media literacy and making them active producers rather than passive receivers of media content.

With this in mind, we offer two proposals. The first concerns local funding. DCTV believes local funding can facilitate an alignment between community broadcasting, education and community development. Community television needs support, training and mentoring to be built into its costing model. We believe there is an opportunity for a local fund to accompany the national broadcasting fund to be managed by existing structures at local level. Media for social benefit should form an important part of the new local economic and community plans for each area. We propose that a local public service broadcasting fund be created, keeping a percentage of the public service broadcasting charge in the area in which it is collected. This would help to build media skills and develop community and local broadcasting all over Ireland. When combined with the local community development programme and Leader funding, this would offer a way to build digital and creative skills in all of our communities.

I now turn to our proposal for an all-island community channel. DCTV has followed the creation of digital terrestrial television, DTT, with interest. The Broadcasting Act 2009 set out that two digital channels would be devoted to the Oireachtas and film. These have not materialised - in large part because of carriage fees that must be paid to RTE Networks, now 2rn, to recoup the cost of building a digital transmission system. Ironically this means that Ireland's expensive DTT infrastructure is badly underused. There are only eight channels on Saorview, unlike international averages of more than 40 channels on national digital platforms. As community broadcasters, we propose that more imaginative use be made of money from the broadcasting charge to cover the cost of four new Saorview channels. In addition to the Oireachtas and film channels mentioned in Chapter 6 of the 2009 Act, we also advocate the creation of a community channel and an arts channel. Based on the Department's review of the cost of the Oireachtas channel, we believe an allocation of €5 million per year from the public service broadcasting charge would see four new channels added to Saorview. This would strengthen the service availed of by more than 350,000 people and create space for innovation and community development. Already, a consortium made up of Northern Visions in Belfast and DCTV, with support from Cork Community Television, has submitted a combined expression of interest in establishing an all-island channel to the BAI. This was favourably received. Such a channel would offer an exciting opportunity for communities all over the island of Ireland. An all-island community channel would empower communities by carrying their programmes. It would also ensure their voices were heard by providing national television coverage on Saorview, Freeview, cable and a range of mobile and digital solutions. This facilitation of grassroots discussion and debate would be a valuable contribution to local democracy and civil society on the island of Ireland. It would also support the ongoing efforts under the Good Friday Agreement which addresses relationships within Northern Ireland and between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

I would like to reiterate that community television contributes to society by representing and empowering diverse communities. We would suggest to the committee that a combination of local funding and a national community channel would best realise the opportunities that community television presents. I thank the members of the committee for their time and we will respond to any questions they may have later.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Brennan for his comprehensive presentation and thought-provoking suggestions, which are important. Consideration of those is what we are about here today. I invite Mr. Pierce O'Reilly of Irish TV - which is another dimension to the changing face of broadcasting - to make his presentation.

Mr. Pierce O'Reilly

Tá an-áthas orm a bheith anseo, go háirithe mar chraoltóir nua. Léiríonn an cuireadh a tugadh dom go bhfuil an choiste oscailte do smaointí nua. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for inviting us as new broadcasters to put across our views. It is a brave move to sit down and talk to us because we believe we are the future of television in Ireland. People ask why has Irish TV come about or why is it being launched. It has come about out of a sense of frustration and fear - frustration that we were not able to get work for the creative sector and for the people who were working with us and fear that we would not have any work and that we may have had to emigrate like many other people. There was also a burning desire to do something for ourselves and to fight back. We believe we have created something that will benefit every county of Ireland and that will also fill the remit of the Government in connecting with the global diaspora.

Irish TV will be launched officially tomorrow night. If anybody would like to come along they are more than welcome to attend. It will be launched by An Taoiseach. He has given it his support and watched it develop during the past three years.

Irish TV is Ireland’s first international TV channel, bringing local stories from every corner of Ireland to a global audience and connecting the Irish diaspora with home. It is a unique and innovative TV platform for Ireland to broadcast its message internationally and connect with the estimated 70 million people of Irish descent. From tomorrow we will be broadcasting 24 hours a day, producing 50 unique home-produced programmes per week, with original content each night from 6 p.m. until 12 midnight.

Irish TV is a €15 million project, backed by London millionaire and Irish citizen, John Griffin. We are very serious about what we are doing for the industry. Our headquarters are based in County Mayo. We have four regional offices already established and operating in Tyrone, Manchester, London and Cleveland. We are committed to the project and we know that it will work. We have been working on it on a pilot basis for the past three years and the reaction from every corner of Ireland is why did it not happen sooner.

We broadcast in Ireland on the free to air service, which is very important in that people do not have to pay to get the service. We are on the commercial platform Sky TV, Freesat, and on Eircom's eVision. The current household reach for Irish TV is 3 million households. Irish TV is currently in carriage negotiations with UPC through its partner, Virgin Media. We have also approached RTE NL to discuss carriage on Saorview. I concur with Dr. Eddie Brennan's view that Saorview should be made available in a much more cost-effective model to create a platform for new broadcasters. At present it costs €1 million plus to get a channel on Soarview. We have also entered talks with RTE about content sharing and distribution of RTE Digital content worldwide on the Irish TV networks. We will be entering talks with TG4 and TV3 very soon.

In the UK, Irish TV is available to Northern Ireland and UK households on Sky TV and on Freesat. We are currently in carriage negotiations with Virgin Media and with the local broadcasters in the UK. The British Government is very excited and interested in the development of local TV services. I believe that the model we have come up with will benefit the entire country of Ireland.

In Europe, we are at an advanced stage of negotiations with a number of European broadcasters who see the value in what we have worked on during the past three years - the structures, the content and the ability to distribute it globally. In America, Irish TV programming has been broadcast on various PBS networks across the US in the past two years. The Public Broadcasting Service, PBS, has 354 member television stations which hold collective ownership. Irish TV is continually in talks with the PBS regarding distribution of Irish TV content across America and that is growing all the time. We are also in talks with Comcast Corporation, the largest cable company and home Internet service provider in the United States, about distributing the content on its networks and we will have news on that very soon.

While one would think of the traditional places in which the Irish diaspora are based, namely the UK or America, we have had an important delegation from China, comprising the lead broadcasters in China, visit us. A delegation of seven key media owners travelled to Ireland to negotiate carriage partnership with Irish TV and now we have been invited to go China to see where the synergies and links are between the two countries. They are examining our content and structures and want to see how they can tie in and benefit both countries as we move forward.

We are also in negotiations with carriers and broadcasters in Australia and in Africa, which shows the level of interest in what we have done from very humble beginnings. Those are our terrestrial partners. In this context I am talking about the television in the corner of the room, which is very important at present because, unfortunately, the rollout of broadband has not been fast enough to create what we are building towards, which is the future of television online. People can watch our content on their television in the corner of the room.

On the Internet platforms and IPTV, Irish TV is available on mobile telephones, iPads, tablets and computers via the Irishtv.ie and Irishtv.com websites - the dotcom site being very important for the American market. The future of television is something for which we have been planning during the last three years. People will have heard of IPTV. Irish TV is currently developing an Internet protocol television system, or IPTV, which will deliver the content to the consumer wherever they are in the world more effectively anywhere and anytime via a set top box and app. IPTV offers the viewer the ability to stream content directly from the Irish TV content delivery network, CDN. This is the future of television, namely, that people will be able to access whatever channels they want directly through the Internet, but it must be interfaced with the IPTV to make sure one's browser is not buffering all the time if one is watching content on one's phone. We are at the advanced stages of having that system in place and rolled out very soon. IPTV services will bring to the consumer the ability to watch live TV; time-shifted television or catch-up TV, of which we heard a good deal, which replays a TV show that was broadcast hours earlier or days ago and start-over TV - these are words we will hear much more about in the future and we are developing the products for them; and video on demand whereby if one wants to watch a programme one can do so whenever one wishes. People no longer watch the Nine O'Clock News at nine o'clock; they watch it when they are ready to do so. That is what we are providing through our technology and the work we have done in the background.

From a broadcasting licence perspective, Irish TV is currently regulated by Ofcom in the UK. The broadcast licence is currently held by Irish TV's channel partner, Information TV, but we are in the process of obtaining a broadcast licence under the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. That is because our headquarters are based in Westport in Ireland. We want to contribute to the broadcasting Bill as well.

Our content is unique and has a focus on connecting people to their locality. Irish TV aims to shine a light into every corner of rural Ireland and bring the real essence of Irish life to a worldwide audience. Irish TV is an all-Ireland channel and each of the Thirty-two Counties will have their own TV channel as we move forward, which will be available via IPTV.

Dr. Eddie Brennan spoke about a community channel. We have a community channel operating on a commercial basis. The State should not have to contribute to make something viable or operational. If there are structures in place that are operational and if the State can support them to broaden it and to fill its remit of connecting with the global diaspora, then it is a win-win situation for everybody.

Obviously, it will create employment across the country.

Starting from tomorrow, every county will have its own half-hour television show called "County Matters". The message is simple - every county matters, wherever it is. Rural Irish life is unique, with its own cultures, traditions and events that resonate with each county. People in rural Ireland are proud of their localities and local events. At the heart of these programmes are people. Wherever there are people, Irish TV will be there to cover their stories.

Irish TV is a local television service made possible by attracting a global audience that attracts global media buyers. We are not asking for support. Rather, we are asking the committee to consider what we have done and how we can all work together to improve it. Irish TV has more than 260 independent production houses in Ireland and overseas, delivering original content and programming everyday. Initially, we will employ 150 people across the island of Ireland, creating unique content every day. For this reason, I am proud to be able to contribute to the committee.

The Broadcasting Act 2009 refers to the State's intention to be inclusive of the diaspora. It is important legislation. Irish TV is providing that service. It contributes to meeting the demographic, cultural, linguistic, educational and social needs of Irish society, individual groups and Irish communities outside the island. Irish TV co-operates with independent producers and established television channels in marketing outside the State what is on offer in Ireland. Irish TV is providing the State with the perfect platform to connect with the local and global Irish communities.

We hope that Irish TV will be included in the upcoming broadcasting Bill as a beneficiary of public funding via the new broadcasting charge. The funds derived by Irish TV from the broadcasting charge would support the creative sector in every county, in that they will provide access to a local and global television platform. There are creative people in every county and it does not mean that their ideas are not good if they are knocked back due to a lack of television access. We will provide a new platform for them to tell their stories. Irish TV should be supported via the broadcasting charge in fulfilling the State’s remit in connecting with the global diaspora and providing a platform for local communities in every corner of Ireland. Irish TV promotes Ireland globally as a great place to visit, live and work, which is a key strategic message for the Government and all State agencies. Therefore, we should benefit from the broadcasting charge. We hope that some of its funds will be ring-fenced for us.

The broadcasting Bill should facilitate the roll-out of the Irish TV channel on the Saorview service, as Irish TV covers the State’s remit as set out in the 2009 Act. Without planning to become so, Irish TV is a public service broadcaster covering local stories in every county. The Bill should state that stories and events of importance and national significance should be made freely available to Irish TV and other broadcasters for communication to the global diaspora.

Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Reilly. We have received three extensive presentations covering all of broadcasting. If people wanted to know how broadcasting and communications in Ireland were changing, they could have found out from the presentations.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I thank our guests for appearing before us. Collectively, they have given a great insight into the challenges involved in the broadcasting Bill, for example, the new broadcasting charge and where funding should be prioritised. There is a diversity of media activity involved, so I might address that along the lines of the groups that are presenting, starting with CRAOL.

A great deal of work is being done at community level. Some community radio stations were not able to continue operating due to funding difficulties. We are dealing with the broadcasting Bill predominantly, but how does CRAOL acces funds through Pobal? There is a pot of money under the Bill. How are we going to get the best out of it? The same question arises for Dublin Community Television and Irish TV. We need the Bill to be all-encompassing. Heretofore, a small percentage of the licence fee went to independent operators. We hope that the committee's deliberations on the Bill will be taken into consideration. It should not just cover the national broadcaster, but also community and independent radio and television stations.

I take the point about Saorview. It is something that we need to pursue as a committee. Given the presentations, it seems that the pot of money must be considered carefully. If the Bill is to decide on how it is divided up, we must ensure that a certain amount is made available at community and local levels. There is a pile of artistic activity and so on that is not being given a forum. Organisations must build up expertise. For example, the national broadcaster has been successful since its infancy and has seen the involvement of many fine people and programmes.

The language used by our guests indicates that we must be careful, as this Bill will determine how all broadcasters will fit into the system for the next 15 to 20 years or longer. Broadcasting is progressing at a considerable pace. We will try to include the points made by our guests in any of our deliberations on the Bill.

Chairman

The Deputy's question related to Pobal.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

Yes.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

There are 22 fully licensed community stations, of which 14 are funded under the community services programme, CSP, by Pobal. To be clear, Pobal only supports employment, not the other operations that are necessary. We view the public service broadcasting charge as providing something that will fund operations.

A major issue is the fact that the CSP is closed to new entrants. I am from one of the stations that is already being funded. The programme is positive. With the emergence of the new charge, there might be a clearer means of reporting. Instead of the form of reporting that we provide to Pobal each year, we would be like the national public service broadcaster, RTE, in that we would set out for the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, the series of services that we would deliver for the duration of a licence. In return, we would receive X amount.

Chairman

The CSP is closed to new entrants.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

No new entrants have been admitted to the community services programme.

Ms Sally Galiana

The CSPs are being reviewed. The communities engaged in these community service projects have been advised that their budgets are to be halved. This came as a surprise to them. However, CRAOL has since learned that this cut has been postponed until the end of the year. The main problem for community media is that it is difficult to plan activity without certainty in funding.

Chairman

The threat of having their funding halved is hanging over them.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

I will try to address that issue. Youghal Community Radio is one of the stations affected. We received notice of the cut in February. We applied to recontract last year and should have received notice in this regard by the end of the year, but we did not. We were then notified in early February that our funding would end on 30 June, despite the fact that we had applied for funding for a new three year contract up to end 2016. Thanks to the work of CRAOL, we have received assurance that funding has been extended to the end of this year to facilitate a coming together of CRAOL representatives, Pobal and Pobal's paymasters, the Department of Social Protection. There has been a positive meeting between these three groups. There is an awful lot of good will, notwithstanding that the proposed cut in funding is cathartic for many stations. There is huge uncertainty in this regard for the five full-time and other jobs at my station. We have agreed to enter into negotiations with Pobal on the metrics in terms of what we should deliver and how that will be measured and to ensure there is a common understanding by the Department of Social Protection and Pobal. There is evidence that up until now there was an information and understanding gap between Pobal and the Department which we think fed into the rejection of some of the stations.

We are positive about how the process is advancing. Having said that, there are five stations with the guillotine hanging over them.

Chairman

That is interesting news.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I thank the delegates for appearing before the committee.

Chairman

My apologies - I should have called Deputy Seán Kenny before the Deputy.

Deputy Seán Kenny

As he has started, I am happy to allow him to continue.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I thank the Deputy. This is an area that, as legislators, we have not discussed enough. For years the only operators in this area were RTE, various local radio stations and Sky TV. The message from citizens as we develop alternative ways of communicating and listen more to what they are saying is that there is a gap in communications. Citizens believe they not alone have the ability but also the right to contribute to and be part of that communications process and I agree with them.

It is great to hear the perspectives of three groups. I was impressed to hear the CRAOL representatives say community radio stations could not be bought or sold. On their not having playlists and, as such, more Irish content, perhaps the delegates might elaborate on this and, in terms of the stations being community based, the mechanism that is used by communities to influence their policies, direction and programme content. In the absence of a group of shareholders or directors, how does the community influence these choices?

Reference was made to the potential scope for expansion of local community radio stations. This might scare the Government a little because it likes to know what it is getting into and, particularly, what will be the financial consequences of its becoming involved in things. Has any thought been given to what would be reasonable scope for community radio stations and the level of funding that would be required to sustain this?

My final question is directed at each of the organisations. It is difficult for any business, be it commercial or community, to survive if it cannot plan. In other words, there must be certainty for any head of business in terms of activity for three to five years ahead and, in particular, the resources required to do that work. Perhaps a representative of each of the organisations might comment on whether there is a lack of certainty in planning, the impact of this and how in their view it could be addressed.

I would like to receive a little more information from Dublin Community Television, Northern Vision and Irish TV on their experiences in setting up these companies and, in particular, Ms Hyndman's proposal to expand Northern Vision on a 32 county basis and whether there might be opportunities in that regard in the roll-out of the Good Friday Agreement.

I have one other question for the representative of Irish TV which I assume has a board of directors or shareholders. I congratulate those involved. It is a big investment in a good idea. I wonder if the station had been developed three years ago, would it, rather than other operators, would have engaged on particular issues with the GAA. Had it been in operation for the past three years, is this the type of platform that could have been used? Mr. O'Reilly might also comment on whether, if the station grows and is successful, it would be at risk of takeover by organisations such as Sky. He might also talk us through the mechanics and cost of providing quality home produced programming for the diaspora. Nobody would argue against this being done and, of course, it should be done. However, are the mechanics and cost of doing so likely to increase year on year? What are the projections of how much the station will raise by way of advertising in Ireland and other jurisdictions?

Chairman

Do the witnesses wish to take the questions in order?

Ms Sally Galiana

On the first question about how we ensure that the local community has an influence on the work and mechanisms of community media, there is an open door policy. First, the community owns the registration. Obviously we are in different legal frameworks. Some of the community radio stations might be companies. In the case of my radio station, it is a co-operative. Participation is at all levels. At governance level, anybody can put themselves forward to be a member of the committee of management. These are voluntary positions so anybody from the community can come and join, nominate or get a nomination and be elected to the committee. That means they are deciding on the policy and strategy of the organisation.

From the point of view of programming, again there is an open access or open door policy. There might be people from the local community who may be interested in doing a radio programme. They might have an opinion as an individual or they might be from a community or voluntary organisation in the local area who wish to highlight the work they are doing in the community. The way the community media will react to that is, first, we provide them with training in communication, how to put their message across. Then we offer them training on production, so they can produce their own radio programme if they wish. Then they are offered the opportunity to do a radio programme. As the committee can see, there is a straightforward mechanism for engaging the community in producing community radio.

There is also the issue of editorial control. Who decides what is important, what is news and what should be on the radio is the person or community organisation that is producing the programme. The only editorial control that is exercised in community radio is to ensure that any content broadcast falls within the guidelines and the legal restrictions in Ireland. There is no programming director or editor telling people what should be in the programme. That is the difference. We do not look at our audiences as consumers but as possible volunteers or possible members of our committee. That is how we guarantee participation - through open door access, training and access to broadcasting time and technology.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

The Deputy raised the issue of the scale, growth and the limits. It is reasonable to be concerned about that. As individuals or as representatives of CRAOL, it is not for us to put a limit on the growth of the sector, but perhaps I could quantify what has happened so far.

The first concept and framework for community licences was rolled out by the BAI in 1995. There were six of them; 19 years later there were 24 stations fully licensed. As Deputy Moynihan mentioned, there has unfortunately been some attrition in the past 18 months to two years and two of those stations are no longer in existence. That has much to do with operational funding. However, there have been 22 stations in existence over that 19 year period. If we assume that the rate of licensing is going to double over the next ten years, one would imagine there will be no more than just over 40 stations or so. That is assuming that everything improves.

Ms Sally Galiana

To add to that, the licensing process is quite detailed for new developing members. When a community group wishes to apply for a radio licence it must prepare itself and then engage with the BAI. That takes time. The last community radio was licensed in 2005 and no community radio licence has been issued since then. There is some delay because of the changes in the Broadcasting Act and the changes in the regulations.

What we are discussing here today is the current situation in Ireland. Hopefully, in 50 years there will be 400 radio stations and we will have to look for other solutions for the sector. However, what we are discussing is the reality at present and the fact that there are 22 community radio stations. We need sustainable resources and funding.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Where is the horizon for certainty of funding for the sector at present? How far ahead can it look with certainty?

Ms Sally Galiana

If one looks at the planning, there is no certainty. For example, organisations such as my community radio have a community employment permit and Declan's has a community services programme, CSP. That gives us the certainty that we will have the staff but we do not know where the money to pay for the electricity, rent, equipment and computers will come from.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

From year to year, therefore, the stations do not know with certainty that they will have enough to pay the electricity for the next year.

Ms Sally Galiana

That is the problem. We rely on funding - Sound & Vision, for example, is not assigned to pay for operational costs. Sound & Vision is only assigned to produce radio programmes. We must find a way to save money from producing the radio to be able to invest in operational costs. It is really difficult. I travel around Europe and look at the situation for community radio. In France, for example, a community radio station with a licence receives between €20,000 and €40,000 from the regulator. Under the Austrian model, when doing a simple application for funding they explain what content they will deliver. Also, all the outreach and facilitation work with community organisations in the background gets €150,000. I feel a great deal of healthy envy.

Mr. Ciaran Moore

On the planning issue, in Dublin Community Television we encountered some of the same issues with Sound & Vision and its application. That damages the organisation. It makes it difficult for the organisation to plan. Each year there are three rounds of funding and it is something of a lottery. Community media is a community development process. We work with partners and people in local communities to put together ideas for projects. We found there was no certainty in that process itself. One works with an organisation and spends six months building a project together. DCTV tried to put a great deal of work into that, but we had a 50% success rate. From a commercial application perspective, that is hugely successful and for a model built around television commissioning, it does not matter if one fails, but we had already done a great deal of work with these community organisations and with different neighbourhoods, but suddenly the funding did not arrive. The impact on the organisation is important, but the inability to undertake the community development work that is so important and to build those opportunities for the people we were working with was equally damaging under the funding model.

Ms Marilyn Hyndman

The Deputy asked about our experience of being a community broadcaster. I will take a couple of minutes to put it all into context before answering the Deputy's other questions about the Good Friday Agreement. We put in a bid to Ofcom in 2002 to become a local broadcaster for Belfast. It was successful. We were broadcasting in the period between February 2004 and the digital switch-over in 2012. We knew that local public service television was on the horizon and towards the end of that period we again made a bid to Ofcom to become a local public television service. We were again successful in that bid, so we will begin broadcasting towards the end of September this year. We will be broadcasting on Freeview Channel 8 to approximately 260,000 households. We will also be broadcasting on Virgin Media on the cable. Those negotiations have been taking place with a network of local television stations across the UK.

There are negotiations to go onto Sky's yellow button service. Internationally, we provide five hours a month to Today's Ireland, which is anchored by the RTE news service. We agreed in principle to give Today's Ireland a local news service from the North once we start broadcasting. That will go out to 41 million households across the USA.

The hub of the network is in Birmingham and we are all connected to the hub. The UK local public service television goes out to around 14 million households across the UK. We are all linked to the central hub and it gives us the opportunity to share programming between local television stations. We are particularly interested in that in respect of Scotland and the Good Friday Agreement. There are two stations at the moment in Edinburgh and Glasgow which have been licensed to Scottish television. We have spoken in principle about those kinds of content sharing initiatives, but we are also interested in sharing programming with England and Wales because there is a significant Irish diaspora there and also because of economic and social development and being able to share processes.

Dublin and Cork make a variety of programmes for different demographics and we have been sharing programming. We have broadcast programming from Dublin and Cork and vice versa. We are interested in its being developed and continuing. I was asked about the Good Friday Agreement. Community relations is a cross-cutting theme across all social and economic strategies in the North and, when we put together the bid, it was uppermost in our minds that we wanted to support the peace process. We see it as vital in the national community television channel. There are other considerations. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade provides project finance and support to organisations in the North. Many of them are our partners or we have worked with them, and it is a valuable contribution. The national channel can support other areas such as education. In Belfast, we are working with the fourth largest college in the UK. It has links with the south of Ireland and the national channel is important in terms of economic corridors, not just for the eastern seaboard but between Enniskillen and Sligo and between Derry and Donegal. In many ways, linking communities on the island of Ireland can develop many processes, not just community relations.

Mr. Pierce O'Reilly

We are in negotiations with the GAA. Our structure is based on the GAA structure. We have a three person crew in every county covering the stories and they see the value in it when we cover a local GAA match or a local festival. In bringing together those elements from 32 counties, Irish TV is the national platform. We are a community television channel run on a commercial basis. If we came in saying that we wanted support to set it up, the sum would amount to twice as much. The jigsaw is so fragmented. Irish TV is trying to take all of the elements of the creative sector, bring them together and put the structure in place so there will be no duplication within the sector. Having spoken to Dr. Eddie Brennan, I can see many ways we can work together. We have a very structured system for planning. We have regional editors in the four provinces and crews in each county. They report to regional editors and the editors meet on a weekly basis to decide the topics of interest.

I hope the takeover will take place. Irish TV is a family-run business set up by myself and my wife at our kitchen table out of frustration at how we would survive. We had no commissions for the year and we decided to do something to benefit ourselves and to benefit the industry. We could cover our house with lovely letters thanking us for our submissions, telling us that we had been unsuccessful on that occasion and that the next commissioning round would be in six months. I had a staff of three people and I was going to go into the office to tell them we had no work but instead I told them we were going to launch a television platform. We did not know if it would work but we tried something to keep ourselves and the staff in the industry. Everybody has bought into it and sees the value of it. Three people are employed in Laois, Carlow, Wicklow and Kerry. They are covering community stories and getting calls from Australia and America from people who saw them on television. That is benefiting the community. There was a fear element in getting the local butcher to advertise on the Carlow programme but he now knows that the people of Carlow or Kilkenny will be watching a half-hour programme so it is of value to him to advertise on that. That can be replicated.

Some 30% of our revenue last year came from outside Ireland and this year we are hoping that 50% of revenue will come from outside Ireland. We will be contributing to the State coffers, which is very important.

Chairman

The next speakers will be Deputies Noel Harrington and Ann Phelan.

Deputy Ann Phelan

I would prefer to speak first as I am on quorum duty. I am not as familiar with television as with radio but, from listening to the witnesses, I am amazed at the amount of activity in the sector. I am not ideologically opposed to ring-fencing, under the provisions of the Broadcasting Act, a stream of money for the community sector, whether television or radio. Perhaps this money should be for development but, like Deputy Colreavy, I believe the area is crowded. Everyone seems to be viewing the broadcasting charge as a way of being supported. The independent people also make the argument that they provide a community service. I do not mean to be disingenuous but we all want a piece of the action. What help can the witnesses provide us? This must be regulated and perhaps they can tell us how they see it being regulated. Can the witnesses give us advice? If we were to ring-fence an amount, should this be done under the public service obligation or because these are not-for-profit organisations?

Mr. Ciaran Moore

Community broadcasters are licensed so we have gone through a process to be licensed with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

As a community broadcaster, under section 72 we must represent our community and provide evidence that we do so. Second, we must deliver a service description of what we will broadcast, and we are monitored against that. We propose that these funds will be made available for regulated broadcasters. There is no reference to public service in the Act, but there is a reference to social benefit. There is a specific remit for community broadcasters to provide a social benefit in our broadcasting. The regulation has certain other measures. As regulated broadcasters, we are covered by the same rules on advertising, complaints processes and so on.

Another point is that there is a media production environment. Some of the funding could be more loosely funded in this area. The model under the Sound and Vision scheme is interesting in that there must be a regulated broadcaster to support projects. Different groups can make programmes but a licensed broadcaster must give a commitment that it will broadcast a certain programme once it is made. Again, there is oversight from a regulatory point of view.

Deputy Ann Phelan

I have a supplementary question. Would there be any merit in working more closely with the local authorities and the new economic committees that are to be set up? If such a stream of funding were set up, could community broadcasters work through them? Does Mr. Moore envisage that being of benefit in any way?

Mr. Ciaran Moore

It would be a major benefit for us. Again, it comes down to the concept of planning because, to a large extent, in each of the local communities where we work, there are different requirements, whether different skills needs or a need for facilities. It would be advantageous to be able to input into a five year plan how communities and skills will develop within a certain area and to identify objectives in community media within that area. This process will be starting in the second half of the year and it provides an opportunity for us to feed into identifying the requirements within a local area and leveraging other funds as well.

Dublin Community Television was focused on identifying existing training projects to which we could add media resources. For example, if a group of young unemployed people were being trained somewhere by FÁS, we would offer to do a course with them one day per week. Such synergies relating to the alignment process of community development work, education and media offer far greater value for money in the sense that a small amount of media funding can be matched with training and community development funding.

Mr. Pierce O'Reilly

We have hit the nail on the head. There should be a stipulation in the broadcasting Bill to the effect that a certain amount of funding is put aside for the local authorities to support the roll-out of local media, whether radio or television. I hope Irish TV fits into this in the sense that we will be the broadcast or media partners for the 32 county authorities. That would represent a win-win scenario for the county authorities, because local authorities must get their message sold on local radio. Now, we are providing the local television service to broadcast that message as well. It would stand as a structured system if it was put back into the local authorities on a 32 county or 26 county basis.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

I welcome Deputy Phelan's comments about the notion of ring-fencing. This is what CRAOL is seeking. We wish to ring-fence a share of the public service broadcasting charge. However, we are clear that this would be for community media as opposed to commercial media. That is the angle we are coming from. We do not aim to speak for anyone else in that regard.

Mr. Moore referred to regulation and ownership structures and so on. We have advertising restrictions that do not apply to the commercial sector. We have no aspirations to become the commercial sector. For example, community radio is entitled to six minutes of advertising per hour whereas commercial radio has ten minutes. CRAOL is not asking the committee to increase this such that we can compete with commercial radio. This is not what we want. We are clear about who we are and that we are community media. However, we are suggesting that we are of specific value to the community and we are keen for this to be reflected in reliable operational funding.

Reference was made to the mechanism of delivery. We have a good deal of experience working with the existing companies and this will apply to the local community development committees that are being set up. We have no issue with that. Similarly, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland has considerable experience in administering the television licence fee as such and we have no issue with that. We see that as an administrative issue. It is more about ring-fencing a degree of funding. We are not after a chunk of a pie. We are after certainty for the future.

Ms Sally Galiana

This is a question of language. Reference was made to the many approaches towards the public service broadcasting charge from different organisations. However, as Mr. Moore noted, community media is clearly defined in the legislation. It is about ownership and not only about interviewing someone in the community. That does not make a station part of the community media. Community media is about the possibility of those in the community making their own programmes, and that is important. We are not working with the community; we are the community. That is the difference.

Deputy Noel Harrington

I welcome each of the people to the committee. We have heard interesting, positive and different testimonies from each. The position is evolving with a new broadcasting household charge from the old television licence. While it might not make much difference to a household in terms of pounds, shillings and pence when it comes to paying for the television licence, there is a difference in that the charge will be levied at the same rate on every household from Malin Head to Mizen Head. I am keen to touch on a related issue. Some households will get far more from this than others if the household charge is divided as has been suggested. How do the deputations propose to address that? For example, Dr. Brennan referred to a local fund that would be more or less spent where it is collected as well as an all-Ireland fund, both derived from the one household charge. Frankly, someone could feasibly benefit twice as much in an urban area because far more funds would be raised in that area for a local fund by comparison with a corresponding local service to a more rural area. For example, the practicalities of the area I represent mean this simply would not happen there. We would not get any quality of service to households. I am keen to hear how that could be addressed.

Each of the deputations has mentioned the extra dimensions they bring, not only in broadcasting but in service, training, employment opportunities and so on. They have broadened out the picture to include the benefits they provide to communities and the State. Each of the witnesses might have a different observation on my question. Is it appropriate for the broadcasting charge fund to be used to fund training, even if it remains the same as the fund collected for the television licence? Is there duplication of funding? Why not have links to the Dublin Institute of Technology through various organisations or links through the Department of Social Protection to other funding mechanisms? These could be better targeted by the Exchequer to deal with exactly what the witnesses are trying to achieve rather than use a broadcasting charge fund for the same purposes. What is the risk of a duplication of effort? Could a station access one particular stream of Exchequer funding for one purpose and then expect the household to supplement that through another fund? The witnesses may have observations on that.

I conclude by wishing Mr. O'Reilly every success with what sounds like a very exciting commercial business. I have a little difficulty, however, in terms of where he sees a public service component in it. It seems to be more commercial than CRAOL and the general community television model. How does he see public service funding fitting neatly into the package he is proposing? At the same time, I acknowledge that it would be a not-for-profit endeavour which would support wages and salaries. That, of course, is good. My question is about how any public service funding might support its activities. I acknowledge it is a broad question. For example, if Mr. O'Reilly's business were to receive additional funding from the broadcasting charge, would it go towards paying salaries and meeting administration costs rather than actual pure broadcasting content and the pure technical support required to that end?

Dr. Eddie Brennan

I will answer some of Deputy Noel Harrington's questions and refer the issue of the division of funds to Mr. Moore.

In terms of education, the Deputy asked whether the money would be going to DIT, for example, where I am a lecturer in the school of media. One can see, of course, how there might be a relevance to channelling the money towards established trainers. As chairperson of DCTV, I am actively exploring links between the company and DIT and other colleges. There is a difficulty, however, in that what we are trying to do is facilitate engagement with media production and increase participation in media. If one offers a media course, it will appeal to people who are interested in making media. However, there might be a minority group which is concerned with representing a particular social issue, for instance, or a community group that is representing a particular sporting interest. In such cases, the primary concern is with representing that issue, not learning how to make media. By having the training funding centred on community media stations, whether radio or television, one can engage people's existing interests in the community and deliver media training in that sense. On the other hand, if we were to create silos, so to speak, for media training, a lot of people who have something important to say will not engage with that media training because it is not their primary interest. Their interest is in representing whatever their particular concern might be. I would welcome collaboration between DCTV and colleges which are delivering media training. There are already linkages with DIT and Griffith College. However, it is also important to have funding for mentoring and training which goes to the community broadcaster.

I will refer the Deputy's question on the division of funds to Mr. Moore.

Mr. Ciaran Moore

When we put forward our proposal, we discussed mechanisms for making it work. We use as a model the current broadcasting fund, which is 7% of the public service broadcasting charge and allocated by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. Our view was that perhaps 50% of the fund might be split on a pro rata basis between the 31 local authorities, with the remaining funding allocated according to the amount collected. If the fund was, say, €15 million, there would be an allocation of between €600,000 and €1 million per local authority. While there would be some disparity in terms of the numbers, one of the important aspects of the fund was that there would be resources available for people to engage in tactical interventions and fit media skills, including media production skills, into other activities. It has to be of a certain scale. There is no point in a small rural county getting tens of thousands of euro because that is not enough to have an impact.

To follow on from what Dr. Brennan said, often the types of training and experiential learning people receive when they engage with community media spark an interest in these skills which transfers over into third level and other training courses. One of the activities of which I was most proud during all my time with DCTV was our work with a number of small youth centres which were running local training initiatives. These initiatives involved engaging with young unemployed people, many of whom did not have a leaving certificate or other formal accreditation. We provided a single media module which was promoted on the basis of helping people to make their own neighbourhood television programme. The media training was effectively a carrot - after all, everybody wants to be on television - which helped the organisers to recruit people into a formal education setting. We are not in any way seeking to replace the existing structures. Rather, our objective would be to partner with those training providers to deliver innovative small projects such as the one to which I referred. In many cases, the people we are training in media skills will not end up in media careers. In our view, it is about equipping people with basic literacy skills.

Ms Marilyn Hyndman

I echo that point. We offer a range of training schemes which are about getting people back into employment. We are also looking at creative apprenticeships in conjunction with the colleges, the Arts Council and local authorities. We also take on trainees under the Irish language broadcast fund scheme, with the majority now coming from the South. We have ended up taking on some of these trainees. Some of them come with a basic level of skills and education, but the majority do not. We participated in a survey for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport which found that the majority of those who participated went on to find jobs, most of them in related creative industries such as the theatre and so on.

The other scheme we operate is to do with active citizenship. Some of the people participating in the scheme are not interested in gaining employment in the media industry. Rather, they are working in their communities and their concern is to represent the issues of these communities. We attract a very wide range of individuals to that scheme, including older people, women, pastors, youth group members and members of ethnic minorities. For these participants, to echo what Dr. Brennan and Mr. Moore said, it is about getting the issues across.

Ms Sally Galiana

We are looking at the public service broadcasting charge as an operational fund which can help to facilitate greater involvement by communities. The problem for community media is that it might take three solid weeks simply to complete an application, an effort which takes from the developmental work the community organisation exists to do. If we could be certain of having sufficient funding to cover the basic costs of running the projects, it would allow us to submit only five applications, say, instead of 20. It is not necessarily about certified training. In my community in Coolock a lot of people do not want to go into formal education but are happy to go up to the studio and learn in an informal, hands-on way how to broadcast a radio programme. We do not see the funding going directly into training but rather supporting our activities towards the production of more diverse and better quality programmes. Having said that, training is a very important aspect of our work. In fact, CRAOL is a recognised FETAC-QQI centre and our community radio stations deliver certified FETAC training on our behalf.

We are already doing that. We are not asking for the public service broadcasting fund to finance that part of our operations. Rather, we are asking that it facilitate us in doing our work with the local community. This may involve informal training.

As Mr. Moore stated, we do not aspire to take the place of the DIT. We are both complementary and an alternative to the DIT. The FETAC syllabus is there for everyone to use. However, the only organisation which delivers FETAC level 4 introduction to community radio is CRAOL. There is little or no focus on community media in media courses in this country. The first thing we have to do with regard to students from DCU or the DIT who take up internships with our radio station is spend an hour explaining that we work in a different way, that it is not about being a celebrity or being paid €900,000 per year and that we are concerned with regard to facilitating other people to be on radio. We emphasise to them that they are not the stars and that they must make the individuals to whom I refer the stars.

Mr. Pierce O'Reilly

On the broadcasting charge, there seems to be a disconnect on the part of citizens with regard to where the money will go. My view is that the broadcasting Bill should in some way include community television and radio stations and what they are trying to achieve. If this is done, we will be able to inform people that they will be getting 30 minutes of dedicated TV content from their counties every week on foot of the broadcasting charge they will be obliged to pay. We will also be able to highlight, for example, the three people employed in their counties in particular capacities. If one asks people about the charge at present, they indicate that they are of the view it will go to somewhere in Dublin and that they will never heard about it again. We can inform them that we can bring the three individuals to whom I refer right into their communities in order to that their stories might be told.

In the context of the public service element, we visited Keadue, County Roscommon, to cover the harp festival that is held there. We met the chairperson who informed us that for the past 20 years he had been writing to every broadcaster in Ireland in order to ask them to cover the festival and that we were the first to do so. We put together a full, hour-long programme on the festival. To me, this represents public service. We do not want it to be a drain on the State and we are asking how we can work together in order to secure our futures and plan for the people we employ.

The other aspect relating to the proposed Bill is that Irish TV is the first broadcaster which is fulfilling - 100% - the remit set out under existing broadcasting legislation and it is also complying with the Government strategy to connect with the global Irish diaspora. We hope we can work together on that matter.

Chairman

Before we conclude, I wish to offer a couple of observations. From listening to the presentations and the questions which have arisen, it is clear that our guests all fill important niches in their communities. In the context of community TV and radio, there does not appear to be certainty and, as a result, there is an inability to plan. I am of the view that there is a need for change in this regard. Do those in community TV and community radio work under exactly the same restrictions? In other words, are people's wages paid through the various CE schemes?

Mr. Ciaran Moore

Community television started later so the community services programmes were not available to us. When community television began, we received no direct funding from labour market schemes. It is the same general mix of funding, however, so there would be Sound and Vision funding and this would be applied for in respect of individual productions. Other small grants are also available from various Departments. It is all project-driven in the same way as community radio.

Chairman

There are 22 community radio stations. Those who work for them get their wages-----

Ms Sally Galiana

There are also five community radio stations that are run on a voluntary basis. They do not receive any funding whatsoever in respect of staff. There are others where staff are paid via community employment schemes.

Chairman

How much advertising can community radio stations broadcast?

Mr. Declan Gibbons

On the one hand, community media are restricted to broadcasting six minutes of advertising per hour, while the commercial sector can broadcast ten minutes per hour. On the other hand, all community radio stations are restricted in that no more than 50% of their entire income can come from commercial sources.

Chairman

There is a cap on it.

Mr. Declan Gibbons

Absolutely. That is something with which the community radio movement is very happy. Again, that is very much what we are about.

Of the 22 existing stations, 14 are funded under the community services programme. This applies only in respect of staff. As I outlined earlier, five of the stations have been in something of a no person's land for the past while. There is a great deal of uncertainty with regard to this matter. There were previously 24 stations but during the past couple of years two which were fully licensed fell by the wayside. Ultimately, this was due to a lack of funding. It has been said that governance issues lay at the core of those closures. The point has been made, however, that if the issue which arises at every meeting is how bills should be paid and how the lights should be kept on, it is very difficult to have governance in order to run the rest of one's station.

Two community stations have gone to the wall. In that context, I wish to make a position point with regard to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. Despite all the challenges which have emerged in the commercial sector in recent years, no commercial venture has been allowed to close. Many of them have come back and renegotiated their positions in respect of particular issues. For example, they may have been obliged to combine newsrooms, etc., in order to curtail costs. However, two out of 24 community stations were allowed to close.

Chairman

How many community televisions stations are in operation?

Mr. Ciaran Moore

There are three - in Dublin, Cork and Navan - that are licensed under the 2001 Act. Ms Hyndman's station is licensed by Ofcom. As far as I am aware, it is the only community station in Northern Ireland.

Ms Marilyn Hyndman

That is correct.

Chairman

Are the stations in a position to accept advertising?

Dr. Eddie Brennan

In principle it is allowed under legislation. DCTV has a policy of not accepting any advertising at present. However, this is not a set standard for the sector.

Mr. Ciaran Moore

We launched in 2008 when an advertising model did not appear to be the best option for a business model.

Dr. Eddie Brennan

Part of our concern with the advertising model is that there is a subtle editorial effect attached to it. If there is too much advertising pressure, it is not always in the best interests of giving voice to marginalised community groups.

Chairman

So DCTV is completely independent of Sound and Vision funding.

Mr. Ciaran Moore

Last year we received perhaps €150,000 from other income that was non-Sound and Vision. That would have been a mix of Dublin City Council projects and traded income from instances where we would do some production or training work for people. Essentially this came from a variety of small sources and it constituted approximately 30% to 40% of our total income. We accept that our reliance on Sound and Vision was way too heavy.

Chairman

In the context of the recommendation on the global issue and the proposal to provide national coverage via a community model, Mr. O'Reilly is offering this by means of a commercial model. When representatives from independent broadcasters have come before the committee I have asked them about the level of co-operation between them and RTE. The ambition among our guests is to provide the same end result, namely, to connect with the diaspora and so forth. Is there co-operation between community and commercial stations?

Mr. Pierce O'Reilly

From our point of view, we totally believe in partnership. Irish TV was established to create a platform for the independent sector and to facilitate those who work within it to make a viable living. I see huge energy between ourselves and DCTV in the sense that it offers lots of quality programming. Content is always king.

It is about working out what works best between the two of us.

Dr. Eddie Brennan

I agree that partnerships and collaborations are essential in any sector. The way to think of it is about media as an ecosystem where different parts of the media feed into each other. There is clearly a commercial sector, public service, community broadcasting, online ventures and so on. It is important to have collaboration, shared content or other sharing schemes but it is important also to recognise the differences. While Mr. O'Reilly's scheme is excellent, and I wish him the best of luck with it because it is an exciting project, it is important to recognise also that there is a difference in what he is doing as an online commercial venture and a not-for-profit, regulated community broadcasting venture. Nonetheless, collaboration would be an exciting prospect.

Chairman

Unless there are some final questions-----

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I assume we will do a report for the Minister at the end of this process. Should we be encouraging Departments and local authorities to consider this when they are considering putting out and paying for public service notices?

Chairman

This is the initial stage of our first presentation but in our private sessions the committee will take that on board as we get all the dynamics in this broadcasting area.

It has been an enlightening afternoon. We talk about change coming down the track in broadcasting, and the witnesses illustrated that in their presentations. I thank all the witnesses for their contributions and for enlightening all of us on the obstacles and challenges they face but also the opportunities they believe are available in modern communications. It seems likely that the Broadcasting Bill will be forwarded to this committee shortly by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Today's meeting gives us a good insight into the issues that need to be addressed in that Bill and will help us in that regard. We thank the witnesses for their presentations and for the way they answered the questions.

As there is no other business this meeting of the joint committee is adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 May 2014 when a delegation from Bus Éireann will come before us on the school transport scheme.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.55 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 May 2014.