Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Tuesday, 23 Sep 2014

Dublin Bus: Chairman Designate

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Senator Terry Brennan.

The purpose of the meeting is to engage with Mr. Ultan Courtney, chairperson designate of Dublin Bus, in order to discuss the approach he proposes to take when appointed to this role and his views on the challenges facing the company. Members will be aware of the Government's decision in 2011 to put new arrangements in place for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The joint committee welcomes the opportunity to meet the chairperson designate to hear his views. We trust this will provide greater transparency in the process of appointment to State boards and bodies. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Courtney.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise that any submission or opening statement submitted will be published on the committee's website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Courtney is very welcome and I invite him to make his opening submission.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

I am honoured to have been asked by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Donohoe, to become chairman of Dublin Bus. I also wish to thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to come before them today.

To give some background information, I am a native of Dublin and grew up in Artane, where I attended Chanel College. I joined Córas Iompair Éireann in 1979 as a bus conductor and qualified as a bus driver in 1985. During my time in CIE, I became a full-time student in Trinity College Dublin and graduated in 1987 with a BA (Hons) in economics. In my final year I studied transport and labour economics and in my undergraduate thesis I examined how economically efficient Dublin Bus was against a basket of other bus operators. I left CIE in 1987.

I have been awarded postgraduate diplomas in corporate legal governance from the Law Society of Ireland, in employment law and arbitration law from the school of law in UCD, and in strategic management and executive coaching from DIT. I am a qualified mediator and arbitrator, master trainer and executive coach. I am currently a member of the Central Bank disputes resolution tribunal and a lay member of the client and complaints committee of the Law Society of Ireland. I am a former board member of the Equality Authority and a current member of the Institute of Directors.

In 1987 I joined IBEC and started a career in HR and in industrial relations. I have held senior management positions in Glanbia, Superquinn and C&C Group plc. I was the group HR director in C&C Group plc for seven years until 2008. For the past seven years I have been managing director of Courtney HR, which provides management consultancy services to many leading Irish companies. I have an interest in history, sports and the theatre.

With regard to the strategic priorities, Dublin Bus is a vital transport network and is a key component in enabling economic growth and the creation of jobs. In 2013, its 3,200 staff and its fleet of 932 buses were responsible for transporting 114 million passengers over 56 million km. As the economy starts to grow again, so also are passenger numbers. Our priority is to meet that customer demand and provide the services the city needs when it needs them. The strategic imperatives are to develop the network to meet the needs of the city and county; to ensure a safe, continuous, reliable and efficient service for our customers; to establish a sound financial footing for the company; and to develop the skills of all the team in Dublin Bus.

Moving on to operations, the Dublin Bus Network Direct review has transformed the service. Consultation with the users was key, and 110 routes, including 19 high-frequency routes, now crisscross the city. The network is now simpler, more direct, better integrated and more user-friendly. However, the work goes on, and the priority is to work with the NTA, Dublin City Council and other transport networks to provide a truly integrated system, of which Dublin Bus forms an integral part. Full accessibility, the introduction of hybrid buses and safety are also priorities.

Dublin Bus is striving to keep its existing customers and attract new ones. Dublin commuters now have travel options. They include walking, cycling, and using scooters, cars, buses, trams and trains. At present, 61% of all public transport trips into Dublin city centre are on the bus. Our aim is to continue to make the bus option the most attractive. This is achieved, first, by having a modern clean, reliable fleet of buses, second, by giving value for money, and third, by providing more on-board services.

Dublin Bus services include real-time passenger information and passenger displays at stops, and on-bus real-time passenger announcements are next. All of the Dublin Bus fleet have free Wi-Fi access for all our customers. The introduction of the Leap card is one of many steps towards a truly integrated transport system, and Dublin Bus is committed to this process through the National Journey Planner. Leap cards will be used more than 30 million times in 2014.

With regard to the financial aspect, Dublin Bus has had a very difficult few years and much hard work has been done by the management team to make the most of the reduced revenues available to it.

This has meant making some very tough choices about reducing costs, fleet size and changes to routes and schedules. All of the staff in Dublin Bus have made their contribution to these changes and the company is now heading towards a more stable financial position. However, capital investment is also a priority and has to be renewed and sustained.

Significant challenges still remain and the careful and prudent management of the limited financial resources available to the company remain a top priority for senior management and the board. Areas of focus include the ageing of the fleet, the nature and size of the subvention, continuing to give customers value for money and getting value for money from our suppliers.

The staff of Dublin Bus are our greatest asset and provide an essential economic service for the city. One of our highest priorities is to develop all of our team members and continue to make Dublin Bus a great place in which to work. The challenge for us all in Dublin Bus is to accept how critical our service is to the people of Dublin and ensure at all times we provide for continuity of this vital service. This is the one of the highest priorities for the board.

In three years' time Dublin Bus will be an integral part of an integrated transport network, providing a safe, reliable, efficient and continuous service for the people of Dublin. It will be seen as an alternative to all other modes of transport that customers elect to use by choice both as a means of transport and an experience in itself. I look forward to making my contribution to that change and in my role as chairman to provide strategic support, for supervision and value for money as the changes happen.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Courtney for a comprehensive contribution on the challenges ahead. While I had never him until he appeared before the committee today, I am impressed by the way in which he has worked his way up through the company.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I wish to share my time with Senator Paschal Mooney.

I welcome Mr. Ultan Courtney and thank him sincerely for appearing before the joint committee. I, too, have just had the opportunity to go through his background. As the Chairman said, it is fantastic that a person who started out in the company as a bus conductor has gone on to become chairman. That speaks volumes for the skills and qualities he has developed. That he has been through a period of additional learning in that time will stand to the company extremely well. I wish him well in his endeavours. We will certainly support him in every way we can.

I wish to set out some of the important issues from my party's perspective. Maintaining a public transport network is hugely important. This is challenged by the capacity of the State to provide subvention for the company. Mr. Courtney was appointed by the Government and at the same time as he becomes chairman he takes on a completely different role. I would have thought there would some be friction between him and the Government in that he has to continuously pushing for more resources, not just to maintain the same level of service but to expand it in line with growth in the economy and also to deal with the competition. How does Mr. Courtney intend to respond to that dynamic? How does he intend to develop a public transport system at a time when part of Government policy looks towards privatisation, something of which I am not in favour, but it is the reality?

Senator Paschal Mooney

I will wait for my turn.

Chairman

I can allow the Senator in briefly if he wishes, otherwise I will move on to Deputy Seán Kenny who will be followed by Deputy Dessie Ellis.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I welcome Mr. Ultan Courtney to the joint committee and wish him every success in his role as chairman of Dublin Bus. I am impressed by his CV. That he has a background in public transport should be an asset and give him an insight into how the public transport service works.

A number of questions have been raised about the level of subvention and how it compares with the subvention provided in other European capital cities where public transport is provided.

Of particular concern is the impact on Dublin Bus and bus passengers of the current disruption being caused by the Luas cross-city works, which is affecting many streets, bus routes and journeys. How does Dublin Bus propose to manage this year-and-a-half-long disruption and ensure people can utilise buses to travel to work?

Chairman

I propose to also allow questions from Deputy Ellis at this point, following which Mr. Courtney can respond to the questions of the three members in this round.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank Mr. Courtney for his presentation. His curriculum vitae is very good. I would like to discuss a number of issues with him. The proposed off-loading of 10% of Dublin Bus routes in 2016 is, in my view, a move towards privatisation. Dublin Bus should remain publicly owned and operated. I am interested in hearing Mr. Courtney's view on that issue. I understand the NTA is currently putting pressure on in this regard. Can that proposal be rowed back on or is it, as appears to be the case, written in stone?

Perhaps Mr. Courtney would offer his opinion on the plans regarding bus rapid transit and say whether he will have input in that regard and what it entails. This plan will hugely affect Dublin Bus and its routes, particularly the main routes. On bus lanes, we hear constantly from people about the need for fewer restrictions on the use of bus lanes and that they should be opened up more to use by other traffic. In some areas, there is awful congestion during times when bus lanes are empty. I would welcome Mr. Courtney's view on this.

Dublin Bus recently recruited a large number of people, which is a positive development. On the other hand, it is reducing its Dublin routes by 10%, which will mean a loss of passengers. I welcome the fact that Dublin Bus is recruiting and that its passenger numbers have stabilised. Mr. Courtney might inform the committee of the proposed remuneration, if any, that he will receive for this post. I acknowledge his reference to other companies with which he has been associated. Perhaps he would elaborate on his involvement as chairman or member in other companies.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

On the public transport network, the first priority for Dublin Bus is always to provide an efficient transport service to Dublin city and county. In terms of our current transport service, the NTA has put forward the proposal that 10% of Dublin Bus routes be put out to tender. That is a reality that we may have to face. It is a policy decision, which may also be required under EU legislation. This will have an impact on Dublin Bus, but we will deal with it as we move forward. The bigger issue for Dublin Bus is how to increase the business regardless of what market we are in, be that public or private. Currently, revenue growth is hugely important. Dublin Bus has shown over the past year or two that it can increase revenue. It is necessary that we look at opportunities to increase revenue, because we cannot sustain a bus service on constantly cutting costs.

Any of us who has been involved in this kind of process knows that there is only so much one can do. There have been three rounds of it in Dublin Bus and now we want to look to a more positive future where we are growing the service and becoming more efficient. We will operate in whatever market we have to, whether it is the public market, which we are in currently and which will be the predominant market for a long period, or some other. There is competition and I have no control over that. CIE or Dublin Bus has no control over that but if there are routes out for tender, we will compete for them. Dublin Bus has provided an effective transport system in Dublin. The challenge is to become more effective. Many of the initiatives taken in terms of the service in recent years have been to do that and to make it more customer-friendly, usable and to attract people onto the bus, which is very important.

Deputy Ellis asked whether people should be allowed to use bus lanes. I have a slightly different way of looking at it; I want to get people onto the buses if I can. I have learned over the years that the use of bus lanes - if a route is a priority one on a bus lane and there is no competition in terms of its use - are probably the most effective way of moving a large number of people from A to B. The real competition is to persuade the person commuting by car by bicycle or walking that the bus is an option that can be used in conjunction with healthy exercise such as walking to travel to and from work. We want to get people onto the buses and to make travelling by bus an experience with which they are satisfied and that they are prepared to pay a reasonable rate for it, but that will always be the challenge. I believe the bus lanes work but they should always be under review. There should always be opportunities to discuss whether they are working and how well they are working.

That brings us back to the rapid transport system. I do not know how that will work in Dublin. We will have to wait and see. It is well worth trying to see how it will work because it has worked in other cities and it is a model that can work. The issue is to make sure that it works well. The last thing we want is to have a satisfied group of people travelling on the rapid system and another group of people who are dissatisfied. A key point I have learned over the years is to listen to one's customers because they will tell one what they want and if one does not listen to them, they will vote with their feet and go elsewhere. We do not want that to happen.

There is a bigger focus in that as it is a public service, it also has a commercial element to it. We want customers to be satisfied. We want them to travel by bus and on getting off the bus to say that was a good experience, they had access to Wi-Fi, they used their Leap card, the service is better than it was and it is going to be better as we move forward. The challenge for us as we move forward is to balance the public and the private, the idea of the passenger against the customer - I prefer to call people customers rather than passengers - and to make it a very good experience for them.

That brings me back to the question that was asked about the subvention paid. The subvention is a part of the revenue of the business. I would like to grow the other side of the revenue stream, which is to generate as much income as possible from the business we do on a daily basis and to explore other opportunities. From my initial reading of the material, I wondered if we had examined all the opportunities to raise revenue. I do not have the answers here today. From a board perspective, that is an area we need to examine in detail and to ask if there are other ways to make money that we have not thought of because we often view the bus service as simply that, a bus service, but there are other opporutities we should examine. It is a question of trying to get that balance right.

In terms of public transport system, there are people who rely on the bus service, who choose to travel by bus and there are people who are marginal whom we want to target. Everybody accepts that we have to provide a service in a city of this size, which, geographically, is very spread out. The argument often arises as to how we should do that. At present the Government has decided to do that by way of providing a subvention, other people would say direct support should be provided to the people concerned but that is another argument. The service is provided by way of subvention and that is part of the social contract between Dublin Bus and the Government. We take that and our responsibilities in that regard very seriously.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Mr. Courtney mentioned that there was an opportunity to examine raising revenue in a different way other than by subvention. Will he expand on that? There is great concern that the way Dublin Bus, or the general group of CIE companies, has dealt with the loss in revenues in recent years, in line with a reduction in fare revenue, in passenger numbers and in subvention, has been made up, to some extent, by cost-cutting, which is fair enough, and an increase in fares.

Everybody accepts that there is an elasticity around the whole fare structure. If there is anything to suggest that is the model Mr. Courtney intends to pursue for the increase in fares, that would be a matter of deep concern. Alongside that, we have got to see a situation where we get a modal shift, which has not been as successful as had generally been expected. If we are to encourage people onto the public transport system, we certainly cannot go down the road of increased fares. So, can Mr. Courtney-----

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Absolutely. I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was talking about increased fares; I was not, because at the end of the day customers have to get value for money. It is within the environment of a bus network as to what it can do to generate revenue. I do not have the answer to that question today but I want to look at it.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is better to have no answer than to say there will be fare increases.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

I do not think that is the answer per se. At the end of the day, people will pay for value for money if they are taken to where they want to go when they need to go.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What about charging for Wi-Fi?

Mr. Ultan Courtney

I do not know. It would be wrong to speculate on that issue. It is too early in a tenure that has not started yet to speculate on that issue. On thing business has taught me is that one should always examine the model one has to see if there are other opportunities to generate revenue - something for which people are happy to pay. At the end of the day Wi-Fi is free, and I do not foresee any change, but one should have a look as to whether one can generate income. One never knows where one will do that.

Chairman

Deputy Kenny raised the issue of the destruction of the streets.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I asked about the disruption to bus services caused by the Luas cross-city works.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

That is a big concern for Dublin Bus. I spoke to the CEO. In one of his initial briefings to me he outlined in detail what Dublin Bus was doing to ensure such disruption was minimised. The last thing we want is that people are left at places which are too far away from where they want to go. Some very good work is being done in that area and is ongoing. We do not know for certain what impact it will have. It is important from our perspective to know exactly what the proposals are, that they suit the customer, and, if they are not working, to move quickly to try to work around that. In an ideal world it would not happen, but it will happen, and we will try to ensure it will not have an impact on our customers and, if it does, that the disruption is minimal as far as possible.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I believe the maintenance of free Wi-Fi is very important. Most cafes, restaurants and hotels provide free Wi-Fi. I accept that Dublin Bus has to raise revenue in other areas, but customers would be annoyed if it was to consider charging for Wi-Fi.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

I do not believe I said we would charge for Wi-Fi. I do not think there is any plan or proposal to charge for Wi-Fi. It has been too successful for us and we want to keep our customers happy.

Deputy Noel Harrington

I welcome Mr. Courtney and acknowledge that his is a strong curriculum vitae. Anyone who has listened to his presentation would have to say that his background in CIE, his studies and his work experience through IBEC in both the private and public sector give him a huge range of experience, and I can only conclude that his appointment is absolutely based on merit. I am confident that Dublin Bus will benefit hugely from the experience he will bring to the position of chairperson.

Perhaps I can take Mr. Courtney back to this time last year, when Dublin Bus went on a three-day strike. The Government, ICTU and IBEC task force which was appointed was led by Mr. Courtney and Mr. Dowling. Will Mr. Courtney provide an outline of the work he did to achieve a breakthrough in the industrial relations impasse at the time, his role at that time and how he sees his role changing from that of task force leader to the position he has today as chairman of Dublin Bus?

How is the relationship with the Government and the unions? Was it enhanced by that process?

Senator Paschal Mooney

I welcome the remarks made about the proposed appointment of Mr. Courtney. He and I share a common background in that I was a bus conductor, but not with Dublin Bus. I come from County Leitrim where there were not many jobs and I ended up in London Transport. I could give him route directions for some of the routes on which I worked if he is interested, as I am sure he could about his.

Mr. Uttan Courtney

I probably could.

Senator Paschal Mooney

He would be too modest to say so, but our colleague, Senator Barrett, was our lecturer in TCD, I understand. There is a common interest there.

I wish Mr. Courtney well. If anybody was to headhunt a chairman of Dublin Bus he would be at the top of the list in terms of his CV. It covers all the bases. Given the fact he has worked his way up through the organisation I do not think anybody other than somebody like him would have a proper understanding of how the culture of Dublin Bus works. Deputy Harrington referred to industrial relations. I know from my time in London that transport workers tend to get a bad name and seem to always give the impression that they are going on strike. Maybe it is because the public impact of what they do is much greater than in other areas of service.

I was curious to explore with Mr. Courtney his views on industrial relations in Bus Éireann between the workforce and management. I want to add a caveat. I am fully aware that a lot of sacrifices have been made by the workforce since 2009. There have been severe cuts and that may have been the catalyst for the more recent industrial relations breakdown.

Chairman

There is phone interference.

Senator Paschal Mooney

People felt that enough was enough in terms of pay cuts. Is Dublin Bus out of the woods in that regard or will it always be a question of balancing the books by the amount of money given by the Government? I would be very supportive of the view expressed by Deputy Ellis. I am a strong supporter of public subvention for the transport industry because I do not think any public transport organisation in the developed world pays its way as it is, by its nature, a public service. I am sure that view will be part of Mr. Courtney's ongoing discussions with the Government.

I do not share the view that even in times of austerity the first area to be examined should be the subvention for public transport, especially as I am someone who comes from rural Ireland where public transport is relied on to a great extent. In a city the size of Dublin people rely on public transport for a variety of reasons. To me it is a no-brainer that Government should provide subventions. However, there is the argument that subvention is fine but there has to be a responsible approach from those working within the industry.

My question concerns the industrial relations relationship between management and the workers. Does the workforce support Dublin Bus and see it as more than just a job? Does it share the vision of what public transport is about as outlined by Mr. Courtney? I would like to explore that with him. I wish him every success. I have no doubt he will bring a very unique dimension to this job.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

I welcome Mr. Courtney. As Senator Mooney said, it is ideal that someone who has been a conductor and a driver and took courses in transport economics is appointed to the role. In the lectures I gave, I often referred to the fact that if we can get things right a bus lane can, as someone said earlier, move large numbers of people very quickly without the kind of capital investment required by underground and railway systems, which took over the glamour end of this business. The bus is still the workhorse. I hope Dublin Bus will be seen as a higher priority.

The committee recently held negotiations with Mr. Keegan on a different matter.

Dublin Bus buses go up one-way streets, have priority at junctions and so on because they carry more people. Can the success of the Stillorgan quality bus corridor, which was impressive, and the one on the Malahide Road, which had a very high share of the market at one stage, be repeated?

As Mr. Courtney said, the staff are very important. Something I note when I bring tourists on the city tours is the incredible wit of the drivers. When we passed by the Rotunda on one of them, the driver said, "That is the best hospital in the world. I am saying that because more people come out of it than go into it." The Dublin Bus driver's wit is one of the company's great assets, and everybody was delighted with it. We had to translate it into German for some people but that kind of Dubliner, as a tourist investor in the open top buses, is brilliant for the city.

I wish Mr. Courtney every good fortune and share the appreciation of everybody else around this table. He could not have been better chosen in terms of his recent human relations background, all the courses he did and from where he started. If there is anything we can do in the Seanad, and I am sure in the Dáil also, that would be of use to him he can come back to us because everyone wants the type of transport service he is seeking to develop. In engineering terms it became less fashionable than much more expensive solutions but we still have a debt to GDP rate of 120%, so some of the expensive solutions might have to wait. Mr. Courtney is welcome aboard, and congratulations on his appointment.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

Mr. Courtney is very welcome. It would be remiss of me not to comment by way of asking a question but Senators have already made reference to what I had intended to say. The only association I had with Dublin Bus was jumping on the 23 bus to go down to the Phoenix Park for a run or hitching a lift when I was injured on the way back from Palmerstown.

People would ask me about the mindset of an athlete or a sportsperson in the 1960s and 1970s compared to the mindset of an athlete in 2014 or recent years when we have seen the performances increasing. Mr. Courtney has a phenomenal background in that he was involved in the nuts and bolts, so to speak. He probably knows every nook and cranny in the engines, besides being a conductor and a bus driver. What is the difference between the mindset in Dublin Bus now and the mindset at the time he was working there? The experience he gained academically through arbitrations, human resources etc. places him in the role of a very good visionary, particularly because of his experience of the nuts and bolts aspect and in terms of where we are now.

I agree with the subvention and a social contract between Dublin Bus and the Government but, ultimately, it is the taxpayer who pays for that subvention. Is the taxpayer aware that if there was no subvention it would not be a very attractive buy commercially? Based on that observation, how does Mr. Courtney, as a visionary who is coming in as chairman of Dublin Bus, intend to get that balance right to satisfy both Government and, ultimately, the taxpayer?

Mr. Ultan Courtney

It is a very good question and it is extremely difficult to answer having been put on the pedestal of a visionary. It will be a balancing act in regard to that but I am looking forward to that challenge because it probably requires a fresh pair of eyes, a little experience and a little expertise. I am not just talking about myself but about the board of Dublin Bus, which is made up of capable, commercially-minded and public sector minded people who know that things are changing and they must change with them. They also know they have to lead it and therefore they have to come in before people like the members and have a vision in regard to that. They have to tell the population of Dublin what they intend to do for them. They also have to tell the workforce what they need them to do for them, and outline what the board will do for them. It is a hearts and minds process. The Senator has asked a very good question, and it is often forgotten in discussions in Dublin Bus on finances and subventions that we are talking about a very good group of people, many of whom have long service.

They are very dedicated and committed to providing the service. I met a man recently with whom I worked 30 years ago. He is still driving the bus and still committed to doing the job, and he wants to be out there. As we sit here and when we go home this evening the buses will still be running; guys will be getting up at 4 a.m. to take the buses out and they will be working until late at night on Nitelink and everything else. They will be doing the business and they are committed.

In my view, industrial relations have improved. We all faced a very difficult set of circumstances over the past number of years when, due to economic circumstances, everybody had to take a cut. We have all taken various cuts in bits and pieces. It is difficult to go to any workforce and ask them to take a cut, and in the case of Dublin Bus the last round was the third round. People are genuinely fearful as they wonder whether this will ever stop and whether a turnaround will come. Trust became somewhat damaged in that process. The excellent management in Dublin Bus worked really hard to convince people that if we did this we could get ourselves on a proper footing and be able to start to grow again, to grow with the city and to grow with the economy. We all bought into that hope; we took all the cuts in the hope that the economy would start to turn around. There are signs that this is happening and the shoots are there. We still have problems; Senator Barrett will be able to enunciate those economic problems far better than me. We still have them and we confront them. The guys and people driving the buses want to see a future as well, and that is the prize.

I was heartened by the process in which I was involved, although it was a very difficult process. The Labour Court had issued a recommendation, and I and Mr. Dowling - who is an excellent mediator - worked hard over many hours. We talked to people and we tried to understand why people were rejecting the recommendation - in many cases out of fear or mistrust, or because they held the view that this was an excuse to take money away. The current proposition is a bargain between the management and the workforce that was freely entered into and agreed, and that bargain has been honoured. People can now see that passenger numbers are going up and Dublin Bus revenue is starting to increase. We have stabilised the subvention and we are in a position in which we have a proposition. We are going to grow with the city and we will face anything that comes our way, whether that be in the public sector, to do with the subvention, or a decision to open the market. Whatever happens, Dublin Bus will be there and will face anything that comes its way.

What is sometimes missed is that Dublin Bus has very good staff who are fully committed; they are the last people who want to be in dispute. People only go out on dispute when they feel they have no option; the day of going out on dispute as an option is long gone in any of the CIE companies. People go on dispute now because they see it as the only option. My role and that of other people in the company is to provide an alternative. That is what we did in the proposal; we offered an alternative way forward, and they bought into it.

The green shoots have appeared and Dublin Bus is fighting back. It is a completely different job from what I remember in the past. There were good men in those days too - and women - who were on the buses and who provided a great social service. Senator Paschal Mooney will be very familiar with the service provided by bus conductors. A much wider range of services is being provided now. They are dealing with the younger population who are looking at Dublin Bus services on Facebook and Twitter and accessing real-time passenger information and apps. I struggle with some of this, but these things are natural to the young and we want to capture the young population and keep them. We are hoping to catch the marginal customer. We have people who will always use our services and those who occasionally use our services. Other people will make a choice. For example, I had a choice today as to how I would travel to this meeting. The best choice for me today was public transport; I arrived by public transport and I will go home by public transport, because it is the best choice for me. I am one of the marginal people because I have a choice: I can use the car or I can walk. I admit to Senator Eamonn Coghlan that I cannot run. I elect to make the choice to use public transport because the service is available. However, the demand from the customer is that we must be there when we are needed and we go where they want to go.

The network review is a major change. Up to a couple of years ago I used to be able to say where every bus went.

Now I do not have a clue, because the service is across the city and citywide; it goes everywhere one wants to go. It has changed and we are constantly challenged by it because Dublin is very spread out and a low-density city. It is a major challenge for us to provide the service and we will continue to examine it.

Industrial relations are better and will continue to improve because there is a process of engagement and we have all learned that the only way we will solve problems is through discussion and engagement. There is always negotiation and, at the end of the day, we do business. My job, as chairman of the board, is to help management to consider alternatives and suggest better ways.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Mr. Courtney mentioned the ageing fleet. What percentage of the fleet needs to be replaced and will it have an impact on the financial position of Dublin Bus? Is the fact that drivers cannot give change an inhibiting factor? I am thinking of tourists in this regard.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Whether drivers can give change is always a question.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Has Dublin Bus considered using debit cards, in respect of which the process is very quick?

Mr. Ultan Courtney

I cannot answer that question today, but I will return to the Senator. We will always examine the issue.

Because working buses have not been replaced for a couple of years, the fleet is slightly older. The newest bus is six years old. It is slipping and we do not want it to happen because if it continues to slip, problems will arise. It could be marginal, affecting just 1% or 2%, when a bus does not turn up, breaks down or goes in for repair. There is no better statement about a modern city than it having a modern, clean, efficient, effective and continuous bus service, where when a bus pulls up and people see it as something good and opt to go on it. In general, despite the few years when we did not receive replacements, the fleet looks good. In the past two years there have been 160 buses provided and there is a commitment to provide approximately another 90 per year in the next few years. We will push hard because people say we have surplus revenue which we should return to the Government. It is very important to argue that it should be put into a modern fleet, which we need.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Nitelink used to be a major service, but it is virtually gone. After midnight or 12.30 a.m. we have a taxi service for the whole city. There were many problems such as anti-social behaviour and attacks on staff, who have been magnificent over the years. Will the issue be revisited? For the capital city not to have a public transport system after hours is an indictment of the city.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

An integrated transport system should be provided when people need it and if there is a service at night, it should be examined. However, we must consider the operational impact. If there is anti-social behaviour and drivers need to be protected or if the service is not being used, the issue is always going to be revisited. It will always be in the mix of public transport in Dublin.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Courtney for coming before us and engaging with us in a very open and transparent way. He has demonstrated that he has been a practitioner and has the theory, expertise and vision. We wish him well in his new appointment and will send a transcript of today's discussion to the Minister.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

I thank the Chairman and members for their courtesy.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.55 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 24 September 2014.