Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 2014

Mobile Telephone Coverage and High Speed Broadband Availability: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

We are now in public session. I welcome everyone to the meeting, the aim of which is discuss with representatives of the Telecommunications and Internet Federation, TIF, and the Irish Cellular Industry Association, ICIA, and with services providers the issues of poor broadband and mobile telephone coverage. Members will recall that we met officials from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and ComReg to discuss this matter on 8 October. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Torlach Denihan, director, TIF-ICIA; Dr. Gary Healy, vice-chair, TIF-ICIA; Mr. Mark Hughes, from 3 and O2; Ms Mairead Cullen from Vodafone Ireland; Mr. Pat Galvin from Eircom; and Mr. Ger Woods from UPC Ireland.

I draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement and any other documents witnesses have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Denihan to make his opening remarks now. I should point out to him that his presentation has already been given to committee members and, in that context, I urge him to be as brief as possible so that we can devote more time to the question and answer session which will be the real meat of this meeting.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

I thank the Chairman and the committee on behalf of the TIF and the ICIA for its invitation to discuss broadband and mobile telephone coverage. The industry sees this meeting as part of an ongoing dialogue with Deputies and Senators regarding these issues. The TIF is the representative body for the industry and its members include all companies making significant investments in telecommunications infrastructure in Ireland. The ICIA is an alliance of the mobile network providers. All ICIA members are also members of the TIF. My presentation is industry-specific and is not connected to any particular company. If members have queries about specific locations or individual customers, we will be happy to take those on board and the companies will respond off-line, as it were, as we do not have the information with us today to go into that level of detail.

Our industry wants to work with Government and members of this committee so that a high quality communications network is available to all homes and business premises in Ireland, regardless of location. The telecommunications sector is an important contributor to Ireland's society and economy. It employs 18,000 people throughout the country and generates €1.4 billion in taxation, or 3% of total revenue. It provides innovative new services that continue to transform life in the workplace and at home. It is paying €843 million to the Irish Exchequer in licence fees as a result of the 2012 spectrum auction. It has invested €2.5 billion in Ireland's telecommunications infrastructure in the past five years. Taken together, this amounts to an investment by industry of €3.2 billion over the last five years, which is equal to Ireland's entire public capital programme for 2014. This enormous investment took place throughout the economic crisis in Ireland - during the bailout period - and was a major vote of confidence in the Irish economy, as was stated by Government when the results of the spectrum auction were announced. Similar substantial capital investment will be made over the next few years to upgrade the core communications infrastructure by rolling out fibre and 4G mobile.

Some 97% of households subscribe to mobile telephone services, 85% to pay-TV services, 78% to broadband services and 69% to fixed telephone services. There is near-universal availability of basic broadband at 3 Mbps, and of mobile telephone services. By June 2016 fixed or cable network fibre high-speed broadband services are projected to reach 1.6 million homes and businesses. Fibre and cable broadband services deliver speeds in the 100 to 200 Mbps range. There is over 100% population penetration for mobile telephony, with 59% of individuals using smart phones. As ComReg said to this committee last month, the mobile operators have always significantly exceeded the coverage conditions of their licences, as set by the State. 4G roll-out has commenced, with some 300,000 active 4G subscriptions. Over the next three years 4G will be rolled out nationally, including to those areas covered by the national broadband scheme.

The telecommunications market is highly competitive with approximately 50 operators, and several new entrants have been announced recently. Despite sector revenue decreasing, the industry is continuing to invest. Where it is commercially viable, companies will provide high-speed broadband, whether fixed, cable or mobile, by making the necessary major investment in telecommunications infrastructure. In areas where it is not commercially viable, this investment is to be made by Government through a public tender. The industry engages with Government regarding the roll-out of high-speed broadband through participation at chief executive level on the Government's next generation broadband task force.

As members are aware, last April the Government announced an initiative for State funding for a major roll-out of fibre in rural areas to make a high-speed broadband network available to all homes and business premises, regardless of location. TIF supports this initiative and the industry is working intensively with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to help with this project. Accelerated commercial investment by industry has taken place since 2012. The Department informed this committee that the result of this is that the area to be addressed by the State scheme has been reduced by half. Support from committee members for this initiative and for future investment by industry would be invaluable. In particular, the industry would welcome the committee's support in overcoming unnecessary local barriers to telecommunications infrastructure so that high-speed broadband and 4G can be provided in every locality.

Broadband and mobile provision in rural Ireland is challenging because of where our people live. We not only have a relatively low population density but even more significantly, our population is incredibly dispersed across the landscape. Taking density first, the UK is four times more densely populated than Ireland, with 263 people per square kilometre. Ireland has 67 people per square kilometre on average while rural Ireland averages approximately 26 people per square kilometre. Our population dispersal is even more significant. Over 25% of our population lives in what the OECD calls "remote" rural regions, namely, villages with fewer than 50 homes, compared to an EU average of 11%. The extent to which our rural population is dispersed is unique. Rural broadband in Ireland thus requires relatively more telecommunications infrastructure, in terms of masts and fibre, than elsewhere. Natural features such as hills, valleys and even trees, can degrade signal quality. When making planning applications, telecommunications operators seek to locate masts so as to overcome these obstacles and transmit signals as effectively as possible.

Masts are used to provide broadband as well as mobile telephone services. Issues with the planning system and planning processes are a significant barrier. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, concluded that reform of local planning regulations would help to avoid worsening the urban-rural digital divide. Levies, bonds and inconsistency of approach by local authorities regarding telecommunications infrastructure and road openings are a further barrier. Lack of consistency among State agencies in terms of access to State property for telecommunications infrastructure is an additional barrier. Steep increases in network rates payable to local authorities, as indicated by the Valuation Office, is another emerging problem.

The industry would welcome support from committee members with local authorities and State agencies regarding the barriers outlined above. We acknowledge the support provided to the industry in addressing such barriers by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

The speed at which investment happens will be critically dependent on the continuation of a pro-investment environment and improved co-ordination among local authorities and State agencies. The continued roll-out of high speed broadband and 4G has a dual significance for Ireland's economic recovery: first, the immediate employment provided by network construction and, second, and more importantly, the longer-term role of high speed broadband and 4G in facilitating job creation at local level. We welcome the Government's commitment to encourage demand for high speed broadband by measures to fund training to promote information technology, IT, literacy across society to make online services accessible to all and measures to assist small and medium enterprises, SMEs, to develop an online presence to serve their customers.

Significant investments in cable, fixed and mobile infrastructure are required. There are clear economic and social benefits from advanced telecommunications. Co-operation between operators, the Government, local authorities and State agencies is critical to making progress. A more co-ordinated approach by local government and State agencies will make investment happen faster.

I reiterate that operators are willing to engage on a one-to-one basis with members of the committee or other Members of the Oireachtas on specific issues as required, as is our organisation. We will be happy to answer any questions from members.

Chairman

Thank you for that overview of the €2.5 billion investment and everything that is happening. The view of the committee since we started examining this is that everybody accepts that the train is coming down the track, as it were, but the difficulty is that there is a huge demand for broadband from SMEs and so forth. They know they must facilitate online shopping and have an online presence. At present, online shopping worldwide is valued at €5.9 billion and the target for 2020 is approximately €20 billion, so people must get into that space. Businesses are being told that continually, but it is not happening fast enough. That is the issue. Everybody agrees it will be widespread in a few years but the gap is what we do in the meantime when the economy is picking up and there is growth.

While the issue with broadband is that it is not coming into place fast enough, the issue with the mobile telephone situation is that it is regressing, particularly in the past few years. We are all aware of the number of blackspots and so forth, but it has got worse. You mentioned the situation with masts, but I presume more masts have been decommissioned in the past couple of years. This morning, I was interviewed on a radio programme about today's meeting. The programmers must have asked for comments afterwards about the regression of the mobile telephone coverage and I understand the station was flooded with texts and so forth saying this is happening. Will you address those points before I hand over to the members?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

We are shooting at a moving target in terms of expectations regarding mobile telephone coverage. The expectations are higher at all times. There are ambitious plans, and major money has been allocated by the companies here today and more widely by industry to invest in 4G roll-out and continued broadband coverage. As regards the masts, it is not so much decommissioning of masts but where masts can be located. Sometimes, due to planning decisions, they are not located in the best location and the service is less than one would like. Perhaps Mairead Cullen of Vodafone will address the deteriorating mobile telephone issue.

Ms Mairead Cullen

We recognise members' concerns and we are aware they were raised at the last meeting of the committee. Mobile coverage can be affected by a number of factors. The industry is continuing to invest significantly in the network. We are adding new sites on a continuous basis, upgrading the technology to extend the reach of our network and we are constantly examining innovative solutions to introduce coverage in areas where it has not been feasible previously. We recognise that the services and the demand for services are growing on our network and that our customers' expectation is growing constantly.

How they use our services is changing, for example, where they put their telephones in cars. Previously, the telephones would have been located high on the dashboard of a car but with the evolution of technology and Bluetooth, devices can be located anywhere in the car. This is changing customers' experience of how they use our network and how they feel about the service they are receiving from the operators. We constantly continue to push the technology and to push the solutions we are providing. In parallel, customers' expectations and use of our network change.

One effect of the investment we are carrying out on the network is that it requires intervention on the network, so from time to time customers will experience a degradation as a result of our activities on the network. We try to manage this and to minimise the effect it will have on customers' experience but, unfortunately, it is inevitable that they will experience this occasionally while we are conducting upgrades and changing the technology for their benefit.

Chairman

You mentioned where telephones are placed in cars and so forth. There are also new specific areas. When I am travelling to Mayo, I know where coverage will drop, and it will drop in more places this year than was the case a year ago. That is the issue. I am sure members will have questions on those matters.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I welcome the delegation. It is probably one of the largest delegations to appear before the committee, but there is an enormous issue with regard to broadband and mobile telephone coverage.

With regard to the presentation, I am not sure whether the witness is seeking an apology from the Irish people for where they are living or for the dispersed population, but that is the position. We must be serious about this. It is the most frustrating issue I encounter on a daily basis. There is no need for the Government to encourage the population to engage with broadband services for their businesses. Every business, small trader, family, household and farmer is using broadband and the Internet. They are seeking it for their business because that is where business is going, so that is where they are going.

However, there is huge frustration with broadband. There are constantly new schemes for broadband, particularly in the areas the witness outlined in the presentation. The industry uses the phrase that it is "not commercially viable" for broadband provision in these areas and State aid must be provided. An initiative for a new broadband scheme was announced by the Government last April, but what was omitted from the announcement was the fact that it would have to seek state aid approval from the European Union and it appears that it will not be presented to the European Union until sometime early in 2015. When people hear this they become hugely frustrated.

The witness referred to the rural-urban digital divide. It is a massive divide.

People are telling me where they have to go to seek broadband services. I do not need to detail specific households or businesses that need them. Everybody needs the best possible broadband service available and there is huge frustration and at this stage almost anger about it. While I appreciate the figures the delegates have announced for the amounts of money invested, if one tells this to the people who are looking for services, they become even more frustrated.

The Chairman alluded to mobile phone services. There is no question or doubt that there are areas of the country where the mobile phone service has deteriorated on a continuous basis. It is not just that there is an issue in some places only; one telephones the service providers only to be told there is ongoing maintenance and that proper coverage will be restored in a couple of weeks. There are areas in which there has been no mobile phone coverage in the past year and a half in which previously there had been very good coverage.

In looking at Departments and planning processes there are a number of issues that come to mind. I think the percentage of the country without a broadband service is 22%. From what I can gather, there are places ten or 15 miles from major centres of population in which there are no broadband services. While we can applaud the amounts that have been spent, there is a major issue related to the rural-urban divide that must be tackled in a significant way. There have been a number of schemes in the past few years, but we are still not getting there. There seems to be no seriousness on the part of the industry to target the issue. I would love to find out what is meant by the term "commercially viable" and what returns the industry needs or is prepared to accept for a service to be commercially viable. There are thousands of people, including families and small businesspeople, who are travelling a mile or two to receive emails and contact suppliers and others they must contact. The Oireachtas, the Government and this committee must tackle this issue in a very serious way because it is one of the major issues.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

First, the industry shares the frustration felt by Deputy Michael Moynihan's constituents. There was certainly no intent on our part to seek an apology from anyone. As a proud Limerick man married to a proud Leitrim woman, I certainly would not seek to move into that territory.

In respect of broadband and mobile phone coverage, it is a little like a Deputy being compared to an MP in Great Britain. There are 600 odd MPs who can cover 60 million people in the United Kingdom in a more straightforward way because of population dispersal. Members of the committee must cover far more miles to talk to their constituents. It is the same challenge for us - we must run more cable and more infrastructure is required.

The urban-rural divide is a really serious issue. The industry is very keen to sell more product and service more customers - that is how we make money. We will go wherever it is commercially viable to provide a service. Ours are commercial entities that must fund investment and sustain employment. The answer to the problem of the rural-urban divide lies in part in addressing the barriers I mentioned but also in the Government scheme announced which offers a way forward.

I will ask some of my colleagues to comment on some of the specific challenges in providing rural broadband and mobile phone services. Mr. Galvin from Eircom will talk about some of the challenges in providing rural broadband services.

Mr. Pat Galvin

As Mr. Denihan said, the industry identifies with the frustration felt by people about the broadband and mobile phone issue. When we talk about scale of market intensity, we are not suggesting we have a problem with social planning generally. All we are saying is scale is hugely important for any utility industry, be it electricity, water and sewerage or telecommunications. As it is a very capital-intensive industry, we must make a commercial return and the reason we must make a commercial return is very simple. If we do not make reasonable profits, we cannot plough them back into extending the network we develop; therefore, it is an iterative process. It is very important to understand what "commercial viability" means and I might refer to our understanding of the Government's view in respect of the national broadband plan.

As Mr. Denihan outlined, perhaps compared to three years ago, one of the reasons customer frustration has become very sharp, particularly in the past year, is that as the industry rolls out high-speed broadband into communities that three years ago would never have anticipated receiving it, while communities in every county in Ireland can access high speed fibre-based broadband, not everybody can access it. In the case of the fixed network, we are involved in a three year national upgrade programme and any programme of this scale in terms of an infrastructure upgrade takes time and planning. Inevitably, when one starts to do it, the frustration for those who do not receive it immediately builds. Therefore, the frustration of those living in what we call black spots is completely understandable. The challenge identified by the Deputy and the Chairman is whether the industry can identify with this - we do - and develop a process to accelerate the development of broadband services. In that context and certainly in the case of the fixed network, we have accelerated our plans and now intend to have 1.6 million premises accessing high speed broadband in 2016 at the end of the three year programme.

In respect of the communities that will ultimately be served during that time, there will still be a residual number of people who will not have broadband. The outcome of the industry collaboration with the Government two years ago was a recognition that there was a line between the commercial market and the market that was difficult to serve and that we needed a collegiate approach to solving that problem. The industry supports the Government's conclusion - that at some point in respect of where the line is drawn, people generally assume the ratio should possibly be 70%:30%. It may not be that figure; it may be higher or lower as the industry develops the network. However, the industry generally endorses the Government's conclusion that if we are to eliminate the digital divide, it must be collaborative. The Government has signalled that it intends to identify those areas in which it cannot be proved the service is commercial. That will change as we roll out the service because the degree of commerciality improves depending on how it is rolled out. At that stage, the Government will intervene. Our message to it, of which it is aware, is that we should do this quickly and get it right first time. That is what the industry is committed to doing in the context of the national broadband plan. Whenever tender is issued, we will respond to it as an industry in a competitive way. The solution is available to be implemented. The challenge for the industry is to manage expectations and the frustration felt in the interim period.

That is my comment on the overall solution in respect of rural broadband services.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I thank our guests for joining us. This is something that annoys everybody, including me. I am sure it also annoys the delegates when they are driving around the country or trying to find coverage. As mentioned, representatives of ComReg and the Department for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources appeared before the committee a number of weeks ago. I explained to them that I had put up a comment on my Facebook page a few days previously asking people to tell me about black spots. I received quite a number of comments, but, unfortunately, some of those who replied did not specify whether they were talking about phone coverage, O2 or Vodafone; therefore, I decided to look at the figures to see what people in County Meath were paying specifically for phone coverage.

I know that the average phone bill is about €24 per month, which seems very low seeing as I use my phone a lot. However, if we take it that the figure is €280 per year, we are paying prices that are 40% higher than those in most European countries. Perhaps the delegates might explain the reason for this? There are over 5 million phones subscribed. We do not have a population of 5 million, which means that many people have two phones. There are 184,000 people living in County Meath. If one was to say 140,000 of these had phones, just under €40 million is going to mobile phone companies every year.

The comments that were relayed back to me a number of weeks ago would not show that this amount of funding is going into County Meath or where that funding is going, because the quality of signal is desperate. I explained that on leaving my house to go to work, if I turn left I cannot get telephone coverage for 15 minutes, if I turn right I cannot get telephone coverage for 15 minutes, and if I go behind my home onto a national road, I cannot get telephone coverage for 15 minutes. Where is this investment going? While there is talk of upgrading to fibre and to 3G or 4G, what about normal signal for people talking on the phone? The purpose of telephones is to be able to talk on them, and if this is to be jeopardised in order to improve data services, I note that after driving home last night I was not complaining that I was unable to download the latest series of "Family Guy" or something; I was complaining because I was unable to use my telephone. If the basic utility for which a telephone was actually created is to be jeopardised for all these purposes, what is the point? My question to the telephone companies is whether the focus of all the upgrading they are doing is specifically on data. If so, is there any way in which it can be pulled back to ensure that a proper, basic service is in place before we start to look for all the bells and whistles and everything else it is stated that people are seeking?

On the Internet and broadband, the national broadband plan obviously is welcome. I understand that companies cannot get everywhere and that there are quite rural parts of Ireland. While that is fine, for those areas in which companies such as Eircom state they will deliver, they should do so. I acknowledge the point was being made that Eircom, for example, has black spots in a particular area. However, to be specific, although people in Dunboyne have been receiving a service from Eircom for years, there is still a black spot comprising approximately five houses. I am dealing with a woman in one of them who could work from home if she could get telephone coverage, but she cannot. When one follows up on this issue, one is told one must wait for the broadband plan coming from the Government. If the Internet companies are in an area, they should be servicing that entire area and not simply leaving it to the Government. I seek a comment on this point.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

I thank the Deputy and will make a couple of points. There have been significant issues with regard to access for the mobile providers to motorways and roads in terms of provision of infrastructure. When the motorways first were being built, access was quite difficult. That was unfortunate, and access has remained problematic. There is engagement between the industry and the National Roads Authority, facilitated by the Departments of Transport, Tourism and Sport and Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, and these difficulties are now being addressed, but there will be a catch-up period. Again, we share the Deputy's frustration, because a dropped call is missed revenue from a company's perspective. It is interesting that the National Roads Authority, NRA, has the power to charge telecommunications companies for use of the existing ducts that run along its roads. Unfortunately, the charges associated with accessing these ducts are so prohibitive that it is cheaper for operators to actually build their own. Consequently, there is a whole range of issues there.

The Deputy mentioned a number of issues, including prices, the quality of mobile coverage and the issue pertaining to Dunboyne. Perhaps if we can take the Dunboyne issue offline, Eircom can follow up with the Deputy later, unless Mr. Galvin wishes to add anything. I will ask my colleague Dr. Gary Healy to comment on prices and then Mr. Mark Hughes, from 3 and O2, to talk about some of the mobile coverage issues mentioned by the Deputy.

Dr. Gary Healy

I thank the Deputy for the question. Price obviously is a key issue for us in the industry. We all compete across this table with one another for customers and so, as Mr. Denihan noted, if we have a bad service or bad coverage we risk losing customers. However, in terms of the numbers on prices, since the start of the recession, although the inflation rate has risen slightly - by approximately 1% - prices for communications services have fallen by approximately 5% to 6% in the same period. This reflects the level of competition for customers across the country. We normally measure prices through what is called the average revenue per user and that number is published by ComReg in its quarterly reports. In the past 12 months, that number has fallen by 7% - that is, from €27 down to approximately €25. This is happening across Europe, where all mobile users are seeing lower prices. However, the reduction across Europe is approximately 5.5%, whereas in Ireland we are seeing a reduction of 7%, which actually is a reflection of the level of competition.

On County Meath and investment, we are constantly looking at investment in all counties. As for our coverage, we test our network quality. Across the industry, there are approximately 250 sites in County Meath. These sites must be maintained and we must consider how well those sites are being used, as well as looking at the alternative sites. It is a constant and expensive process, and that is where the investment goes for all operators - looking at those areas where, for example, we are unable to deal with data and consequently must improve our site for 3G or 4G. In addition, we look at new sites where we find there are black spots, and this is a constant and ongoing engineering challenge that we face. I might ask Mr. Mark Hughes to talk a little bit about mobile coverage in terms of the investment.

Mr. Mark Hughes

The Deputy asked a question regarding the focus of operators in terms of their investment and whether it was exclusively or predominantly on data. The answer to that question is "No"; it is on both voice and data. As for coverage, as my industry colleague, Ms Mairead Cullen, explained, a number of factors influence this. Two issues additional to those she outlined which also influence coverage are the increased use of data - which of its nature puts pressure on voice calls - and the increased penetration of smartphones, of which everyone is aware. Smartphones are complex devices that raise issues from a network perspective that must be managed. As Ms Mairead Cullen outlined, from a network perspective we monitor the network on an hourly and daily basis, looking at usage and seeking to optimise the services that customers receive from the perspectives of both voice and data. The focus really is on ensuring there is coverage where there is usage - namely, in the home, in work premises and while people travel.

In respect of the investment, from the perspective of mobile telephony, investment is ongoing with regard to upgrading to both 3G and 4G. That investment has begun and in the case of all the operators represented here today, there have been upgrades to 3G and 4G in most, if not all, of the counties. However, as Mr. Pat Galvin has outlined, that process will take time. Nevertheless, one would expect that to be completed over the next two to three years, as it has begun and is being rolled out. This investment is not simply an urban investment but also a rural investment. Consequently, as Mr. Galvin outlined with regard to 4G, for example, it will be rolled out in rural areas and in respect of the national broadband scheme, NBS, areas. As part of this, however, as Mr. Denihan outlined, there are issues that affect the optimal level of service that customers can use - for example, where a site is located and whether we can get access to roads. To the extent that we can work together with the Government, local authorities and members present today to overcome those issues, ultimately, together with our investment, we should see an improvement in both voice coverage and data usage from a customer perspective.

Chairman

I will pick up on a point made by Mr. Denihan regarding the use of the ducting along NRA roads. He stated that the cost was prohibitive. Does this mean the facility is there but the operators cannot agree on a price with the NRA? Is that how I should interpret the point?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

The NRA has a price in place that is prohibitive. It actually is less expensive for an operator to build ducting along the motorway than to use what is there.

Chairman

None of the ducting that already is in place along NRA roads is being used by the companies at present to improve coverage. Is that what Mr. Dean-----

Mr. Torlach Denihan

I would be reluctant to say absolutely none, but in the vast majority of cases, no, it is not used by companies.

Chairman

Surely that is crazy.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

It is something on which we are engaging with-----

Chairman

I mean from both sides. If the NRA has a facility that is not being used, the authority is getting nothing for it at present. Is there no meeting of minds, or am I simplifying an issue that is a lot more complex?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

It is a complex issue and it probably is a missed opportunity. My colleague Dr. Healy might be able to shed some additional light on the matter.

Dr. Gary Healy

To put it into context, as I come from a mobile operator background, we have had historical difficulties in getting access to motorways, particularly when the motorway network was being built several years ago. All we are looking for are sites along the sides of motorways, which are relatively small, as well as the ducting that goes with that. The issue is not about cost. As an industry, we pay a lot in fees, rents and so on for sites and are happy to so do.

Our difficulty with the NRA and the road network is that it has been difficult to engage when the road is being built. That is the ideal time to engage. At the previous meeting, committee members referred to coverage issues on motorways. That is because we only had access to the motorways when they were open and not at the time they were built and designed, which is the ideal. We now have engagement with the NRA and we are working on it, but the delay is unfortunate and means people have coverage difficulties on the motorways. We built our network without those motorways in mind. We built it around towns, and when the motorway comes in and people are using it we must redesign our network. Ideally, we redesign it along the network. Greater co-ordination with State agencies helps, particularly in respect of motorways. It was an unfortunate event from our point of view.

Chairman

For motorways being built from now on, it is important to have the discussion before it is done.

Dr. Gary Healy

Yes. This applies also to national and regional roads. My colleague Mr. Pat Galvin has experience of putting ducting into national and regional roads.

Mr. Pat Galvin

The Departments involved have been constructive in setting up a forum whereby the industry and the Government can look at these assets in order to reduce the cost of rolling out high-speed broadband through fibre. Dr Gary Healy has mentioned the historical reality that the core networks, particularly for fixed broadband, were developed before the motorway system. When I say core network, I refer to those linking major cities and towns. It will not add much to the existing routes we upgrade but, where we need to access motorways and national roads, there is an issue with regard to the terms and conditions and ease of doing so. The Government has made significant progress with relevant Departments in sorting it out. There is an issue of health and safety in terms of road openings and wayleaves, which takes time. There is a general frustration in the industry that, while things have improved, it could be much better.

Raising these issues is helpful but it does not address the core problem. This is not the core network linking the cities but the recurring problem in fixed telecoms of the access network. Government assets add value at the core but not at the access network, which is where bottlenecks occur.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I apologise for my late arrival this morning. I have another weekly commitment on Wednesday morning, which means it is close to 10 a.m. before I arrive. I thank the witnesses for the presentation. I will not rehash the tales of woe they heard about the Internet and mobile telephone coverage. I am glad that Mr. Denihan is married to a lady from Leitrim because I live there. Suffice it to say, I get a few complaints about mobile telephone and Internet coverage in Leitrim, Sligo and surrounding counties.

I hear there are 50 operators, which seems a crowded market for a small island. It is difficult to see how 50 operators can operate in a small market. It is great to see competition between operators but difficult to see how 50 of them can function in a small market without duplication of effort, infrastructure and cost. What level of co-operation exists between operators? How is duplication of cost managed in a multi-operator environment? Can someone talk to me about opportunities on all-island basis? Perhaps it is already happening to some extent. What should be happening?

Do the operators have a database of mobile coverage black spots? The Department's survey is commencing. Is the information already available to the operators? Is it shared between operators and the Department?

My third question is on the proposal for the roll-out of fibre-optic cable. Will that change conditions for some industry members and leave some at a competitive disadvantage? Does it change the fundamental rules of the market within which the operators operate? What is the cost of mobile telephone and Internet access compared to our European colleagues? We seem to be less competitive than other European countries.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

I agree the market is highly competitive. This is to the benefit of the consumer, whether we are talking about small businesses or the public.

With regard to crowding, it should be borne in mind that there are a number of core network providers and a number of operators pay for capacity on a network provided by another entity. Not every operator runs a national network, but the people at this meeting do. It is an interesting point about borders. We are a small market and technology does not recognise borders. Regulations differ on either side, the currency is different and people's habits in terms of the media they track and read - and, by virtue of that, how companies can communicate with them - also differ. Dr. Gary Healy can talk about that.

There is substantial sharing of infrastructure, including the companies present. There are formal arrangement in place and, in addition to what we have said about the selling of capacity, there are formal sharing arrangements between operators that provide physical networks. Mr. Pat Galvin can talk about that. With regard to mobile coverage, Ms Mairead Cullen of Vodafone Ireland can talk about that.

Dr. Gary Healy

On the all-Ireland point, some operators are the same North and South, such as Vodafone and O2. With regard to regulations, the regulators, Ofcom in the North and ComReg in the South, work well together. The same spectrum is awarded at the same time so we have certainty on our investment. Each operator approaches the market by offering services on an all-Ireland basis. We offer services for people to allow them to roam in the North when they do a lot of travelling between the North and the South. All operators offer those services. From the all-Ireland point of view we recognise this, but they are different jurisdictions so there are different regulations and currencies. To the extent we can, we co-operate and work together with regulators in that area.

Mr. Pat Galvin

My interpretation of the question is that it concerns whether investing in fibre will disadvantage other operators.

As Eircom develops its recently announced next generation access fibre services, be it fibre to the Cabinet or, ultimately, the home, all of the investment is for the purpose of competition at the retail end. There are two reasons for this. First, it makes commercial sense for companies such as Eircom and other platform owners represented today to have as much traffic on their networks as possible. We talked about making a profit and having a return. Clearly, the more traffic there is on the network, the better. That is the commercial motivation for Eircom. Notwithstanding this, as Eircom is a rigorously regulated company, the investment is subject to very clear regulations that oblige us to allow full access to the network at wholesale and network levels to other operators which then resell at the retail end. The fibre investment we have made stimulates competition at the retail end. That is a fundamental principle of Eircom's business plan, notwithstanding the fact that the regulatory obligation obtains.

These are not easy issues because regulation has an impact on pricing, roll-out plans and the speed of development. These are complex issues on which we have many discussions with ComReg. In essence, the more we invest in fibre as a platform owner, the more benefits that will accrue everywhere, including in communities of 800 or 900 people that would never have anticipated receiving services such as this, not only from Eircom but also from other retail operators represented here that use our network.

Let me consider the wider issue of sharing. As Dr. Healy said, it makes technological sense not to duplicate in the mobile area when we can have sharing agreements. That makes eminent commercial sense for the industry. We engage in this practice voluntarily and willingly based on negotiated commercial agreements.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Is that happening?

Mr. Pat Galvin

Yes, it is.

Ms Mairead Cullen

To return to some of the points made by Deputy Michael Colreavy, I echo the points Mr. Galvin has made about sharing, certainly from a mobile telephony perspective. There have been a number of developments in recent years with regard to commercial models that have facilitated sharing. In parallel, the technology has been evolving and this has enabled the solutions to become available to us to allow us to share in ways that were not previously possible. We are certainly considering more innovative solutions in this regard involving the operators. We are working with the authorities and various bodies that make assets available to us such as the NRA which has been mentioned, the RPA, NAMA and the OPW to ensure the industry is taking advantage of the infrastructure available to it for sharing.

On the question about the database and information available to customers and Deputies on network coverage, the relevant information is freely available. We all publish coverage maps for the various technologies, including 2G, 3G and 4G. We provide coverage data for data and voice services which are available through multiple channels. They are available on our Internet sites, the retail channels and at our care desks if customers ring us. The information we obtain from customers on coverage and problems they are having comprises the key input we use for the ongoing planning of the network.

Let me reiterate some of the points Mr. Galvin made about fibre and the rolling out of additional fibre and consider the question of whether it changes fundamentally the rules of the game. Vodafone and other partners have complemented what Eircom has been doing with fibre in terms of other initiatives. Again, this is reflective of a very competitive marketplace. Vodafone has recently announced a joint venture with the ESB that will bring fibre to over 50 towns, the names of which have been announced. This is reflective of a strong marketplace in which we recognise the demand for services and the need for them to be available.

With regard to changing the rules, the same rules of competition still apply and the market is being served by the industry.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

The question of comparative costs is probably more for the regulator than the delegates. That said, why are costs higher on this island than among our European neighbours?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

A general point applicable not only to telecoms but also across the board is that while there are many wonderful things about Ireland, it is a more expensive place in which to do business than our near neighbour. I have examined this issue in the context of the retail sector. The like-for-like differential is approximately 20%, which carries over to many telecoms.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Why?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

Many items here are just more expensive; it is as simple as that. Historically, property costs have been high, while many wage levels are higher. I am not making a value judgment but just saying how it is. The cost of running a business is higher in this country than on the neighbouring island. Unfortunately, we just have to live with this.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Is anyone examining the issue?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

There are a range of factors to be considered. A graph I have to hand indicates that the telecommunications sector is considering it. The green line shows the inflation rate since 2011, while the blue line shows telecommunications charges. There has been a significant reduction. There has been a 7% fall in telecommunications prices, whereas the consumer price index has increased by 1%. We are doing our bit.

Chairman

Absolutely. Mr. Denihan has the facts and figures.

Four members wish to ask questions and I understand Senators are under pressure. I will allow Senators Terry Brennan and Eamonn Coghlan to contribute straightaway and they will be followed by Deputies Noel Harrington and Michael McCarthy.

Senator Terry Brennan

I thank the Chairman and our visitors.

This reminds me of the ESB rural electrification scheme. There were black spots until the mid-1970s, although the rural electrification scheme had commenced in 1949, which was before I was born but I read about it. The delegates talked about areas in which the service was not commercially viable. It was the same in the case of electrification. The ESB supplied the major towns which, in some cases, had their own electricity plants. However, the black spots were left until last. I come from a rural area, the Cooley Peninsula, which was one of the first areas to be electrified in the country. It was second to Julianstown, County Meath. People waited and waited and eventually, after 25 years, the project was completed. Do the delegates envisage the realisation of their vision for the entire country will take 25 to 30 years? I am particularly concerned about small and medium-sized industries. I am glad to say that on my peninsula there are thousands of people working in small and medium-sized industries, but they do not have the proper or adequate coverage they require to conduct business.

What areas are receiving top priority in the rolling out of broadband? What are the areas in which the service is less commercially viable? What is the vision for the black spots? When I am leaving the Cooley Peninsula for Dublin at 8 a.m. or 9 a.m., I tell people not to ring me because I will be on the motorway for an hour or an hour and a half. I cannot understand the position on coverage. I believe it may be the case that on most motorways there is inadequate mobile phone coverage. There is nothing more annoying than having to tell a caller to call back in ten or 15 minutes because one is entering an area with no coverage. One does not like having to tell a caller with a grievance in the first instance that one will have to call him or her back in 15 minutes. Are there proposals to improve coverage on the Dundalk–Dublin motorway, the one on which I travel most often, and the Cooley Peninsula in north Louth?

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

I will approach this from both a personal and a professional perspective, professional because of the representations I get regularly from people. I have done a test on the upload and download speeds. The upload is 25 Mb, the download is 5.3 Mb and the ping is 116. I would like the delegates to explain what that really means. We talk about frustration but, to put it really mildly, people where I live are more than frustrated. They are ready to move out of the area.

We talk about the rural and the urban divide with regard the delivery of fibre optic cable. I live in an urban area where there is a population of more than 125,000 people. If a person goes on Eircom's mapping, it says fibre optic is available in the area.

I am approaching this from two points of view. The first concerns mobile phone coverage. I am lucky at times if I get mobile coverage in my home. My wife will definitely have to go out onto the street to receive or make a call. My son, who is with another operator will say we have to change operators because he has no problem getting coverage. Will the witnesses explain why he can and we cannot?

The second point of view concerns broadband, which is really frustrating. Mr. Denihan stated the basic service should be 3 Mb per second for coverage in Ireland. I live on a street in west Dublin where there are 20 homes. At the top of the street, there are many thousands of homes that have been built since the early 1990s, receiving full fibre optic coverage. There is a hotel about 400 m away with full fibre optic. The golf course on the other side has full fibre optic. In these 20 homes, we have people from highly qualified, professional backgrounds who might like to work from their homes, but they cannot. The best speed ever that we have received there, according to my chart, is 0.79 Mb per second and perhaps an upload of 0.1 Mb per second. I have made representations to Eircom, UPC, and Sky, who are selling their services, and they say it is not commercially viable. Why is it commercially viable 150 m away and it is not commercially viable on this street? The response I am getting back is that the cabinet for this particular street is too far away and therefore they are not going to do it. I have asked this question a number of times and I still am not getting the answer to it. Who is responsible for the upgrade? Why can we not use for fibre optic the ducting that is used for the copper wiring that is feeding the telephone lines system? Can somebody present please give me answers to whether it will it be done and, perhaps, if it will ever be done?

Deputy Noel Harrington

I welcome the industry representatives and the individual companies involved and I wish to recognise that the companies are competitors as well in providing this service. As part of the presentation, there was reference to the investment the companies have made over recent years in upgrading the networks, both for broadband and mobile phone coverage. That investment is paid for by subscriptions from Irish households. If anybody did an exercise on the amount of money spent by each household on their fixed line, mobile, television subscription and broadband services, I would submit that, if graphed, it would come to a sizeable proportion of household expenditure in 2014. That has to be recognised.

The increased investment has brought about a huge transformation in terms of speeds and services in many areas, particularly the commercially viable areas, which are chiefly urban areas. That has led to a huge change in public expectation, especially those members of the public who are looking enviously at their neighbours because they can get speeds and services up to 100 Mb while, across the road, people could be on dial-up. That is the environment in which the companies are working as providers and we are working as representatives. It is a very difficult gap to bridge. In some respects, the industry is a victim of its own success and technology. However, it is causing problems.

I live on the Beara Peninsula in west Cork. It is probably one of the most challenging areas in terms of the provision of any service in the country because of its location. It is a spectacularly beautiful location - I would say that - but that leads to difficulties in the provision of telecommunications services or any other service. It is on areas like where I live that the national broadband plan, under its terms, should be focused.

In addressing that problem, I have a question for the industry representatives, and perhaps ComReg has the information. I see every day different graphs and statistics showing where Ireland stands in terms of broadband speed and penetration per household. There can be five, even 20, different stories, depending on the way the graph is interpreted. Anything less than 5 Mb is not on anymore, in terms of provision of a service. I note the Government has said a minimum of 30 Mb is going to be the standard for the new broadband plan. In 2014, however, if a person has anything less than 5 Mb, he or she is not at the races. Does the industry have an overall percentage, status or gauge as of the beginning of 2014 of the number of households in this country that do not get a consistent 5 Mb speed? We do not want to hear that it is, for example, 70% of households, as 70% of households could be made up between Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. What is the number of households? I am saying this in the context of companies tendering and looking at getting taxpayers' money to deliver 30 Mb or better in terms of services to those households that are currently on dial-up. Does the industry know exactly where in this country the service levels are critical? There are areas in my constituency that are still on dial-up. It is hugely frustrating.

A classic case would be a presentation we listened to a month ago or more. There was pride in the announcement that 200 km of fibre was planned for County Cork. That is one line from Youghal to the western end. That is a very one dimensional delivery in terms of fibre. That is the scale. I would like to know how the delivery of fibre to every household is going to be achieved. There is talk about fibre to seven inhabited offshore islands. How is that going to be achieved? Is there a timescale for that? Has the industry looked at how it is going to engage with the national broadband plan in delivering those? How much taxpayers' money is it expected will be spent subsidising the companies to deliver fibre to each house? When will this happen? I expect the industry will say the sooner the better. However, people are trying to make decisions about living or continuing to live in an area because they cannot access online services for day-to-day business, even Government business. If a person is trying to set up a business or an SME in those areas where Enterprise Ireland and the IDA have no interest or cannot attract any investment, they are desperately looking at this broadband plan as a potential to begin to or to continue to live there.

I wish to turn now to mobile phone coverage. As Senator Eamonn Coghlan stated, three people living in the same house who use three different mobile phone operators will obtain different levels of service. I can inform our guests of where my line drops out and the locations in which I have never been able to pick up a signal. Friends who live nearby have told me that they receive good signals. Are our guests in a position to outline the true position with regard to the level of mobile phone coverage offered by the various service providers in this country? If they were able to do so, it would provide a true indication of whether coverage is improving, deteriorating or remaining the same. Individual operators have different priorities and what we want to discover is the true picture with regard to coverage. As the Chairman stated, all we have available to us is anecdotal evidence. We need an idea of how the industry measures mobile phone penetration and coverage.

Deputy Michael McCarthy

The part of our guests presentation which relates to challenges refers to any inconsistency of approach on the part of local authorities. Will they provide an example of such inconsistency? Are there any local authorities which are more culpable than others in this regard? Does this inconsistency of approach come down to policy or does it relate to the infrastructural requirements in respect of the roll-out of mobile or broadband services? It was stated that there is an issue with regard to State agencies access to State properties. Does this relate to locations in which masts have been erected?

When Eircell and Esat Digifone commenced operations in the 1990s, as Deputy Harrington pointed out, there were areas of west Cork in which it was not possible to obtain mobile phone coverage. The latter is still the case in these areas. On the regional routes between Dunmanway and Macroom and Dunmanway and Clonakilty, there are several areas in which it is not possible to obtain a mobile phone signal. This is exceptionally frustrating for people.

There is a major issue with mobile, broadband and satellite coverage in an area near Bantry comprising the Borlin and Coomhola valleys. The hill farmers in this area need to access the Internet in order to download area aid forms, etc., but there is no coverage. In order to conduct any business on the Internet they must either travel into Bantry to an Internet cafe or use whatever limited service is available to them at home late at night when the level of demand is not great. The national broadband map which is due to be put up on the Department's website later this month will not be much good to anyone living in the Borlin and Coomhola valleys because they will still not be able to access the Internet. I understand the commercial interests of the organisations involved in providing services. Their objective is to make money rather than provide charitable services. However, there is going to be a shortfall in the context of the level of service they are prepared to provide and the Government will then be obliged to pick up the slack. Will our guests indicate the timeframes in respect of this matter? Will those timeframes be realistic?

In the context of its report, the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas, CEDRA, which is chaired by Mr. Pat Spillane, put forward a number of quite specific recommendations in respect of broadband provision. Have our guests' companies and organisations worked these recommendations into their mission statements at every level and not just that which relates to their commercial interests? When can we expect universality? There is no such thing as "near universality", there either is universal coverage or there is not. When will we see universality of mobile phone and broadband coverage?

Chairman

A great many questions have been posed. Perhaps our guests might reply to them in the order in which they were asked. Obviously, the matters to which a number of them relate overlap.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

I thank members for their questions. Senator Brennan and Deputy Harrington referred to broadband. The Government's scheme will produce a mapping exercise which will show areas which are currently not in receipt of broadband and those which are in receipt of it. That plan will offer solutions in respect of the areas identified by Senator Eamonn Coghlan - to which one can walk from here - and parts of the Coomhola Valley in Cork.

In the context of the pace at which everything will proceed, there are obviously hurdles in Brussels which must be traversed. An issue will also arise in the context of the Government's tendering process, namely, when this will be actioned and so on. The industry is extremely keen to engage with the process because, in the first instance, such tenders are a source of business for those in the industry. Once those households and SMEs currently unable to access broadband are in a position to do so, it will generate more revenue for the industry. There is a great willingness to engage. The position with regard to timeframes and localities will hinge on the outcome of the mapping exercise and the approach taken by the Government.

Senator Brennan referred to motorways. As I stated earlier in reply to a question from Deputy McEntee, there is a range of historical issues relating to motorway coverage. The key matter for us is to get our infrastructure in place along motorways. We have a number of innovative solutions in mind and we are beginning to get engagement from the National Roads Authority in respect of this matter. We believe we have some of the answers so if we can get the authority to engage with us and move forward on that matter, then we anticipate some positive developments.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan referred to a number of technical issues in respect of definitions and timing. Of course, the Senator is a former international athlete so I can understand his interest in time.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

And the need for speed.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

I could not possibly attempt to answer his questions but I will ask my colleague, Ms Cullen from Vodafone Ireland, to address some of them.

The Senator also referred to Eircom. I suggest that this matter could be taken up off-line or perhaps Mr. Galvin may wish to comment on it now. Mr. Galvin and Mr. Woods are well placed to discuss broadband speeds.

I agree with Deputy Harrington with regard to the expectation gap, which is enormous. We fully understand the concerns of all Members of the Oireachtas in respect of this matter. We are also concerned about it. The overall percentages in respect of households which either have or do not have access to high-speed broadband will be revealed - down to the level of individual building or premises - by the mapping exercise. On the basis of what the Department stated last month, we understand the information will be published in a number of weeks. I presume it will be forthcoming by year end. The industry does not have one map in the context of mobile coverage. However, there is almost near universal availability of basic mobile services. Ms Cullen and Mr. Hughes may wish to comment on this matter.

Deputy McCarthy referred to the inconsistency of approach among local authorities. A number of issues arise in this regard. I will provide a simple example. If an operator needs to run a cable from one location to another and if this involves moving between different local authority areas, different permits may be required. Sometimes the technical information local authorities require from operators will also differ. In response to requests from within the industry, a move to a national licensing system for road openings is in the pipeline.

Deputy Michael McCarthy

I apologise for interrupting but would Mr. Denihan be in a position to provide other examples of the inconsistency on the part of local authorities - particularly those in my area - in terms of their approach? Perhaps he might forward the relevant information subsequent to this meeting.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

Absolutely. We would be pleased to do so. The report issued by the body chaired by Mr. Pat Spillane was read with great interest by those in the industry. We agree with its findings with regard to the crucial importance of high-speed broadband. The implementation of the plan announced by the Government in April will be critical in terms of addressing many of the issues to which reference has been made.

Mr. Pat Galvin

There was a commonality of questions around broadband availability and plans. I assure Senator Brennan regarding the roll-out of high-speed broadband in rural Ireland, including the Cooley Peninsula. We have circulated to all Members of the Oireachtas a reference to an Eircom website where their constituency offices can go right down to individual community level and see exactly where Eircom intends to enable cabinets for high-speed broadband. We have clear plans and programmes on where and when we intend to invest. The issue today is what happens where we do not intend to invest, and we have rehearsed the point well.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan and Deputy Harrington raised individual areas. I am familiar with Senator Eamonn Coghlan’s case and it illustrates a point I made earlier that we are involved in a three-year programme. We brought fibre where we could quickly, and the Senator referred to the estate close to his home. Like many other developments, this one has particular physical constraints. Technology has physical constraints, and this is one of the complexities. Service depends on how far one is from the cabinet and whether it is commercially viable to extend the network. We are examining this in the Senator's community. The second phase of the programme examines where we are and asks if we can go further. It is a very calculated, clear programme of investment where we review what we have done, bearing in mind the costs emerging and the technological improvements we are making.

As I am also from west Cork, I am familiar with Deputy Harrington’s location and places such as Ballylickey, Coomhola and Kealkill. One of the issues there is where a house has two serving exchanges but is distant from both. Again, it is a case of getting technical experts to see what can be done. However, we must be realistic. We still depend ultimately on some type of Government intervention to pick up areas such as the hill farmers the Deputy mentioned. When we put in a phone line, we are regulated not to recover the full cost of it, unlike other utilities which can get a significant contribution from the householder. We have a universal service and can recover only a certain amount of our costs and it takes a long time to do so. When we look at challenging geographical areas and the investment case, we must be realistic about what we can achieve in order to make a profit on it and continue to invest.

Universality has traditionally been a feature of the telecommunications industry, where a company was obliged to deliver a universal service. It is a very interesting point because in discussions we have with Government and the European Commission regulators, our view generally is that broadband should be considered to be an issue of universal availability. If the national broadband plan is implemented in the manner proposed, it will become a de facto universal service obligation and whoever wins will be obliged perhaps up to 30 Mbps, or whatever the speed is, in the catchment area of the tender. What could emerge from all this discussion is a universal broadband service funded by the taxpayer, and not in terms of any wasteful expenditure because state aid rules are very clearly designed to ensure money is spent as efficiently as possible. We have covered many areas that are part of the ongoing discussion the industry is having with the Government.

Deputy Michael McCarthy

Could we have an example of access to State properties?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

The most prominent one is the National Roads Authority with the Office of Public Works, and there are others.

Dr. Gary Healy

Each local authority has different rules around levies and bonds, and while some local authorities are approachable in terms of giving us access to sites for masts, others are less approachable. For example, Kerry County Council's development plan prohibits masts being erected within 1 km of where people are. This is a difficulty for us. As an industry we have spoken to Kerry County Council and the prohibition is under review. We would like it to be removed because if affects how we roll out our networks. Sometimes, we cannot get the optimal site due to local authorities' restrictions. We have had challenges as an industry in dealing with the OPW in terms of finding and maintaining sites. We are willing to engage with all State agencies, including the NRA and OPW.

We have found that engagement with local authorities and State agencies has been more challenging than we would have liked. This has caused difficulties, for example when a State agency has a property that might solve a blackspot problem but will not give us access to it. There might be local protests because people do not want a site nearby or there might be a conservation area, and we must take this into consideration. Sometimes blackspots are caused by physical factors, in that a particular geographical location is very difficult for reception and coverage, but sometimes we cannot get the site we want. A more consistent framework for State agencies and local authorities would help us to identify this. Although we work very hard as an industry to engage with local authorities and State agencies to get co-operation, it is a challenge.

Deputy Noel Harrington

On the national broadband plan and the intention of the providers, I ask that the areas that get less than 3 Mbps would be the first to be considered under the national broadband plan to be upgraded to get to the 30 Mbps speed. A commitment to this would be fantastic. Looking at taxpayer-funded investment, where the industry might step in and upgrade a 15 Mbps service to 30 Mbps, it is borderline commercially viable. Providers might prefer to get State investment to get such a community up to 30 Mbps instead of going out to a place that is clearly not commercially viable and will take significant State investment, where people are on anything from dial-up to 3 Mbps. Those areas should be prioritised as soon as the tender is finalised and there should be a commitment to them for the first delivery of the national broadband plan.

There are approximately 2.3 million households in the country. Although they are not represented here, the fixed wireless operators provide a cost-effective and increasingly efficient service to many parts of rural Ireland, although one could argue that there was a muddled start. These operators have not been mentioned. How do the witnesses see those operators coming in as part of a deal under the broadband plan tendering? Could they take up some of the slack?

Mr. Ger Woods

The industry accepts there are areas where the country is not adequately served in terms of broadband. This shortfall is best served by the national broadband plan, which we have outlined extensively. I would like to focus on the positive aspects of broadband speeds. According to statistics from ComReg or the European Commission digital agenda scorecard, 44% of Irish broadband is described as getting speeds in excess of 30 Mbps, which is better than Germany, France and the UK. Across all platforms, Irish consumers have access to the most cutting-edge technologies. In fixed networks, Eircom has detailed how it is rolling out its next generation access network. In mobile, operators are rolling out their LTE, long-term evolution, networks. In cable, UPC provides speeds of up to 120 Mbps as standard and we can offer up to 200 Mbps. Eircom offers up to 100 Mbps. These speeds are on a par with or better than many European countries.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

If one is on an Eircom line all one's life and UPC or Sky is selling a service, are they dependent on the Eircom line?

Mr. Ger Woods

Not in the case of UPC. We have our own cable network.

Ms Mairead Cullen

A number of questions were asked about differences between operators and the different experience people have in their homes. While all of us represent the industry, our companies also compete. Network differentiation is one of the key aspects on which we compete and it is one that we signal to our customers. For this reason, customers will experience differences because the companies provide services in different locations. While all the companies are all rolling out new and innovative technology, how this is done and at what specific locations it is done may differ. We are being continuously pushed by our customers to extend both our reach and our new technologies. Customers will, therefore, experience differences.

A question was asked about certain areas that are still not served by broadband. We have outlined the barriers that have faced us for many years as we seek to address some areas. I assure members that technology is evolving, particularly on the mobile side, and one of the new innovative technologies available to us is to reuse spectrum that was previously used on 2G and re-purpose it on 3G technologies. The laws of physics dictate that one achieves a much greater reach than previously when one uses this lower band spectrum. It is possible to do this from existing sites and while we face barriers, technology is also helping us to evolve from our existing sites. As this technology rolls out, coverage will be extended to areas that have not been served without new sites being added to the network.

A highly technical question was asked on down-link and up-link speeds and ping times. On typical applications such as the speed tests that are available on mobile devices, the down-link and up-link speeds represent the throughput rate one is able to receive. What this means in terms of packages is that video use requires a higher throughput speed to enable the data to go up and down. A higher upload speed is required to facilitate, for example, the uploading of photographs to a Facebook site. The ping measure represents the latency on the network, in other words, how responsive the network is to packets of data going from one destination and coming back. Typically, we seek to improve this measure because it needs to be highly responsive for interactive types of services such as gaming services. The effect of these metrics on a customer's experience will depend on the service he or she is using.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

What would be a good ping number?

Ms Mairead Cullen

It depends on the technology and application being used. I would be pleased to respond to the Senator's question off-line, as it were. I will revert to the Senator with details but there is no absolute good ping number because it will depend on the service being used.

Mr. Pat Galvin

I wish to reassure Deputy Harrington about the role of the fixed wire because it is a significant issue in rural areas where companies have invested in services in some communities which may not necessarily be available in other communities. The important point about the national broadband scheme is that it is a wholesale initiative, in other words, the company that wins the contract for the scheme will be obliged to make the service available to a whole range of resellers at retail level. I suspect the company awarded the contract will want to do this in any case. This presents wireless operators with an opportunity to expand their businesses. The model is similar to that which I described in response to an earlier question where the Eircom network is being made available on a wholesale level to a range of operators at retail level. I expect this requirement is one of the rules on state aid and it is a matter on which the Government will focus.

Mr. Torlach Denihan

To clarify a matter for Deputy Harrington, his suggestion makes eminent sense in that the most poorly served areas should be top of the list to be addressed. However, this issue will be determined in the tender issued by the Department. My understanding is that the European Commissioner insisted that there must be a major enhancement in service before an area can be considered for inclusion in the national broadband plan. While I expect the Department to do as the Deputy suggests, time will tell. The industry will respond to the tender and deliver it first where it is directed to do so.

Deputy Helen McEntee

On drive testing, members discussed with representatives of ComReg the issue of tests on national routes and I have learned that the tests are moving to the motorway network. I asked representatives of Vodafone what testing the company performs. Will the representatives of the other operators explain what testing their companies do? If ComReg were to contact one of the companies represented today indicating that its tests on a particular route found that coverage was poor, how would each of the companies respond? What protocols do they have in place for following up on such a finding?

Mr. Torlach Denihan

Some of the fine detail of what operators do is competitive. Mr. Hughes may wish to make a general comment in response to the Deputy's question.

Mr. Mark Hughes

I will make a general point but I can also reply to her separately after the meeting. As I indicated, we monitor the performance of our network hourly. I will revert to the Deputy on the detail of the drive tests we perform. In addition, we listen to our customers when they call us with a query or complaint. As with all operators, we have established processes, with timeframes, for complaints. Where the issue is one of coverage, we investigate the matter and, if necessary and appropriate, send out a site engineer to ascertain if a particular issue is affecting the customer's service.

Chairman

In case members of the public following proceedings on television believe telephone coverage in Leinster House is perfect, there are, as Senator Eamonn Coghlan noted, many blackspots around the Houses. Perhaps someone will consider improving coverage in the bowels of Leinster House because not all of the dropped calls here are caused by Deputies cutting off constituents. It would be appreciated if the witnesses provided their contact details to allow members to contact them on local issues after a meeting.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the joint committee to discuss this important issue, engaging with members and explaining some of the issues. As I stated, we know broadband services will be upgraded and solutions provided but the lead-in time is frustrating everyone. Members are acting as messengers on behalf of people throughout the country. I thank the witnesses for their ongoing engagement on this issue. The problem of broadband coverage will be solved in the same way that the problem of rural electrification was solved.

Senator Terry Brennan

I hope it will not take as long this time.

Chairman

We hope the timeframe will be much shorter. We will discuss post codes at our next meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m on Wednesday, 19 November 2014.