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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 2021

Rapid Antigen Testing: Discussion (Resumed)

We are continuing our discussions on rapid antigen testing as it relates to aviation and travel. On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Dr. Tony Holohan, Chief Medical Officer, CMO, at the Department of Health; Dr. Ronan Glynn, deputy CMO at the Department of Health; Professor Philip Nolan, chair of the National Public Health Emergency Team, NPHET, modelling group, Dr. Cillian de Gascun, consultant virologist and director at the National Virus Reference Laboratory; Professor Mary Keogan, consultant immunologist and national clinical lead for pathology; and Professor Martin Cormican, consultant microbiologist and national clinical lead for antimicrobial resistance and infection control. I thank them all for appearing before the committee.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or to otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name to the person or entity. If the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses attending the meeting remotely outside of the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and as such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses physically present do. Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of how their domestic law might apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of their constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House or the Convention Centre Dublin, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask that prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting, any member who is participating by Teams would confirm that he or she is on the grounds of Leinster House campus.

For anybody watching this meeting online, Oireachtas Members and witnesses are accessing this meeting remotely. Only I as the Chair and the necessary staff essential to running the meeting are physically present in the room. Due to these unprecedented circumstances and the large number of people attending the meeting remotely, I ask for everyone's forbearance should any technical issues arise.

This is a very important meeting for the public. I thank Dr. Holohan and his colleagues for attending. We look forward to a very good engagement on the role of rapid antigen testing alongside PCR testing. They are not mutually exclusive. We feel they have a significant role to play in aviation and travel. I ask Dr. Holohan to make his opening statement, which should last approximately five minutes.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am grateful for the invitation to attend this meeting. The Chairman has outlined the list of people accompanying me. I am joined today by Dr. Glynn, deputy CMO; Professor Nolan, chair of the modelling group, Dr. de Gascun, consultant virologist and director at the National Virus Reference Laboratory; Professor Keogan, consultant immunologist and national clinical lead for pathology; and Professor Cormican, consultant microbiologist and national clinical lead for antimicrobial resistance and infection control.

I am glad to report that the Covid-19 epidemiological situation in Ireland remains encouragingly stable and currently gives rise to a broadly positive outlook, notwithstanding an ongoing level of uncertainty due to the threat of variants, which are of concern throughout the world. A significant proportion of the adult population in this country remains to be fully vaccinated notwithstanding the good work of the HSE in that area. Our progress has been made possible largely due to the great sacrifices of people in this country and their continued high levels of adherence to the public health measures. Their compliance with those public health measures is what has controlled the disease so far, along with the progressive impact of the national vaccination programme.

We continue to target the public health response in order to most optimally in our judgment mitigate the impact of the pandemic, including as it relates to testing for SARS-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes Covid-19. However, breaking chains of transmission cannot be achieved through testing alone. Ultimately, breaking chains of transmission depends on the extent to which appropriate follow-on, and individual and public health actions are implemented and supported by a wider, comprehensive public health response. As I have said, we have largely seen that in this country. That said, access to timely and accurate Covid-19 testing is an essential component of a multifaceted response strategy which supports case identification, contact tracing, clinical management of cases, infection prevention and control, and disease surveillance including for emerging variants.

In this country to date, testing for the SARS-CoV-2 virus has been primarily based on a robust and agile PCR testing capacity that has been built up to approximately 175,000 tests per week. PCR remains the most accurate and internationally recognised gold-standard diagnostic test for SARS-CoV-2. Our PCR testing capacity is focused on high-yield target groups in the population, such as symptomatic persons or close contacts of cases, along with higher-risk settings and specific indications to limit the importation of Covid-19 as a result of essential travel to this country.

In addition, since late March 2021, free walk-in testing pathways have been established to provide access to free PCR testing for asymptomatic individuals in various locations around the country where there is deemed to be a public health need, for example, due to a high disease incidence in a local community. The Chair will be well familiar with that in Limerick.

In addition to PCR testing capacity, substantial work has also been undertaken by the HSE to examine the potential role for rapid testing within the wider pandemic response. As part of this work, the HSE has performed independent and site-specific validation in Ireland of a number of rapid antigen tests. On foot of this work, the HSE recommends that the use of rapid antigen tests be considered as a diagnostic test in symptomatic people, when a public heath risk assessment determines that the rapidity of results is of utility as an adjunct to the available PCR capacity. For example, in vulnerable communities where there is follow-up of those positive results that are likely to be challenging, or as a supplement to PCR testing in the event of inadequate PCR capacity to meet requirements, which is a situation that we do not find ourselves in at this point in time.

International evidence to date, including two recent major international publications from the Infectious Disease Society of America, published this month on 5 June, I think, and the Royal Statistical Society in the United Kingdom, which was also published this month; the recent Covid-19 Test Validation Summary Report that was published by the HSE earlier this week; and, existing guidance from the World Health Organization and the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, ECDC, all indicate that rapid antigen tests typically perform best in symptomatic individuals and in settings of high disease prevalence, and less well in asymptomatic persons in low prevalence situations.

Based on existing evidence, the use of rapid antigen testing may be considered in high-prevalence settings such as outbreaks where the pre-test probability of individuals being infected is high, and where more rapidly available results may support PCR testing through the early identification of cases and implementation of appropriate follow-on public health actions. The HSE has already made rapid antigen tests available for deployment in such scenarios, where deemed appropriate by local public health teams.

Rapid testing, with antigen testing, may also be considered in higher-risk environments for transmission of Covid-19 as may exist in, for example, meat processing plants. Substantial work has been conducted to evaluate the results and use of rapid antigen tests in asymptomatic workers in this setting, under strictly controlled processes. Both the HSE and the Department of Health have supported the piloting of rapid antigen testing in meat processing plants led by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

The HSE has also made rapid antigen tests available for use in acute hospital settings, if deemed an additional utility by the relevant institutions in the context of access to typically quick turnaround of PCR testing on site. In addition, the Department of Health has supported, and does support, the development of a collaborative pilot now in place by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, the HSE, HIQA and a number of third-level institutions. It is a validation study to examine the potential applicability of different rapid antigen testing approaches in third-level settings. We look forward to reviewing the output from that study. Separately, the HSE is also progressing plans to pilot rapid antigen tests for use in childcare settings as well as in a number of third-level institutions.

While there may be a potential utility to be realised from the use of rapid testing in controlled environments, and this may further evolve over time, there is still much we need to learn about these tests and their actual, as opposed to hypothetical, benefits and limitations. As stressed by the authors of the Royal Statistical Society Report in the UK, which I encourage members to read, the proper assessment of the suitability of Covid-19 tests has been neglected to date, with many tests brought to market without appropriate real-world evaluation or well-designed studies evaluating tests in real-world settings where they are used, and this must become standard practice. In particular, while the aforementioned indications and pilots may be considered as “red light” rapid testing activities, picking up additional cases in a timely manner, and appropriately integrated into the wider public health response, significant caution is urged in regard to any move towards employing rapid antigen testing for “green light” or “enabling” activities that we would otherwise deem to be unsafe, particularly while not accounting for the prevailing epidemiological situation.

Given the limitations of such tests along with the current lack of a substantive supporting real-world evidence base, the hypothesis that antigen testing could be a precursor or enabler for the safe recommencement of certain activities, which would otherwise be deemed not to be safe given the prevailing epidemiological situation, poses several risks both to the individuals engaging in those activities, and those around them, as well as to the wider public health response.

As the evidence evolves, and assuming that this evidence is supportive of the use of rapid antigen testing, we are more than willing to support its further use where appropriate evaluation indicates that it can bring added benefit in the pandemic response. Ultimately, based on knowledge to date, the safest way for us to reopen society, including international travel, will be to continue to control the incidence of the disease, and we are making encouraging progress in that regard, through a range of public health measures that are continuously reviewed, as we do, along with progressing the national vaccination programme to ensure as many people as possible within the population are protected through immunisation. That is our current policy and it is working.

Once again, we thank the committee for extending an invitation to meet today to discuss the Covid-19 testing strategy in relation to travel. We are happy to take any questions on the strategy or on anything else.

I thank Dr. Holohan. We thank RTÉ for broadcasting this meeting live on its RTÉ news channel. This meeting will be a hugely important engagement for both ourselves and the public looking in. We want to have a discussion on the science behind rapid antigen testing and the proposals. We have heard from expert witnesses from across the spectrum and people who have advocated for antigen testing. Obviously Dr. Holohan will appreciate that NPHET advises the Government on medical matters so it is critical that we engage and get NPHET's views on the matter so we can find a way to progress thing.

I wish to advise members that because we have limited time we must conclude this meeting by 2.30 p.m. Therefore, I urge members to stick to seven minutes when they can ask the witnesses concise and succinct questions, and hear answers because a large number of members wish to contribute. First up for Fianna Fáil is Deputy James O'Connor and he has seven minutes.

I confirm that I am within the confines of Leinster House.

I wish to say to Dr. Holohan and the members of NPHET that there is no doubting the fact that some of the measures we have put in place have saved very many lives throughout the Covid-19 pandemic. However, it has to be said that the group of witnesses before this committee, and I appreciate them coming before us today, need to have questions put to them, particularly for the many people who work in the aviation sector from whom all of us on the committee have heard here at meetings over the past number of months. It is arguably the case at the moment that NPHET is the most powerful unelected body in the country. Therefore, NPHET must be scrutinised by members of this committee, and by Members of both Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann.

From my own perspective, I am extremely concerned about Ireland's lackadaisical approach to the area of antigen testing. It is concerning to see Ireland being a laggard in this respect when countries like Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Germany, Denmark, Estonia, Spain, France, Hungary, Italy, and I could go on, are actively looking at the area of antigen testing and how it could benefit the area of aviation. We are, arguably, arriving at a position where Ireland will have its vaccination process completed, or relatively completed, towards the end of the summer and early autumn. Surely be to God we need to start looking at the implementation of antigen testing?

Professor Ferguson's report said antigen testing has specific benefits in terms of its implementation. I noticed that Dr. Holohan has used a couple of phrases here today regarding its accuracy. Arguably, in a controlled environment like an airport or aircraft where there is security, policing methods and crowd control in place already, surely there is no better place for us to consider implementing antigen testing? Specifically, on the area of aviation, why are we not looking at antigen testing?

Dr. Tony Holohan

As I have said already, we are looking at antigen testing. It has already been examined in a number of settings. When we find evidence of the value of it then we apply that evidence. As I have set out already, in symptomatic situations and certain high-risk situations, I am not aware of any published data anywhere that is reported on use in the kinds of sectors or settings that the Deputy has described applied to asymptomatic individuals. I am not aware of any. There is no such data published in any independent studies conducted anywhere in the world that I am aware of. Maybe the Deputy is aware of some but we are not.

I want to clarify my question. Specifically in the area of aviation, why can we not use antigen testing in that specific setting and in a controlled environment?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We can use antigen testing in any setting so long as we have validated the use of the testing and so long as we know what a positive and negative result mean. We have not seen any evidence generated from that sector as yet. If any validation study was proposed to be carried out, we would have no opposition to that whatsoever. The Deputy quotes the Ferguson report and he rightly says it points out the need for us to have well-conducted validation studies supporting policy in this area. That is what we want. We are fully open to using antigen testing in the airline sector and we want it to be informed by the outcome of validation studies.

If I could point to one example, the Deputy may be aware that in the third level sector there is a good study getting under way this summer involving the academic institutions, funded through Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, and sponsored by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. That is exactly the kind of validation exercise we need to inform us as to whether there is a benefit to antigen tests. The findings of the study will inform the application of rapid antigen tests in that particular sector. That is exactly how a responsible approach to validation and the rolling out of antigen testing should happen.

If we are going to be doing this in universities, surely we could be doing this sooner in settings such as matches and music festivals. Our response in our testing capabilities around antigen testing is not up to scratch in terms of large-scale events. We should be increasing capacity at events, using the antigen testing systems that are available.

I want to make an important point. There is a three to four-day window in early infection where both antigen and PCR tests can display a false negative. We are trying to compare like with like in the different systems that are in place for testing Covid-19. Is that enough of a reason to look at antigen testing in the area of aviation? We are already using PCR testing because the likelihood is that in the three to four-day incubation or early period where somebody could have contracted Covid-19, there is already a strong likelihood we will miss that.

My position is that antigen tests should be implemented by the State in every possible location, because if it was taking place in a fuel garage, I would use it. If it was in an airport, we would all use it if it was mandatory. It is ludicrous for the 140,000 people whose livelihoods depend on aviation in this country that we are not looking at this particular mechanism for the area of Covid-19 testing. The Ferguson report set it out clearly. Professor Mina of Harvard University, an assistant professor of epidemiology, says it is a powerful tool in tackling Covid-19.

We should be doing more with this. Does Dr. Holohan think there is the capacity for this State to up its level of testing events to see how we can implement antigen testing, looking at events like Electric Picnic and the aviation sector? Do we have the capacity to do that in the next six months?

Dr. Tony Holohan

A number of questions have been raised and they are not confined to aviation. I will encourage some of my colleagues in the room to come in on this as some of them will have more expertise on the points the Deputy raised on the performance in relative terms of the different testing modalities. I do not think we would fully accept the Deputy's interpretation of that evidence.

I am simply quoting an assistant professor from Harvard University.

Dr. Tony Holohan

What we rely upon for any new drug or test is published evidence on its use in a particular clinical setting, and I will refer the Deputy to one report. If he reads the Royal Statistical Society report, it is an excellent treatise on the dangers and risks of applying tests where there is not good evidence to support the application of those tests and on the standards that need to apply in the conduct of validation studies. It makes many points and I would encourage the Deputy to read it. We are talking about applying antigen tests in a wide variety of different settings. We need to have that informed by the conduct of well-planned and organised validation studies that are applied to each of those sectors so that we know and understand what the impacts of them are. That is a position the Ferguson report also sets out and that is our position.

I want to ask an important question in my final minute. Our Government's chief scientific adviser is Professor Ferguson. His report was put together under a project undertaken by this Government, and I want to ask Dr. Holohan and NPHET where specifically they disagree with the Ferguson report. Why can we not implement some of the findings of that report?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I have not expressed any disagreement with the report, have I? The Deputy did not hear me express any disagreement with the Ferguson report.

I would like to put that question to Dr. Holohan in general. It is not about his opening remarks but that question has to be asked because if he does not have any disagreements, could we not look at some of the specific findings of that report?

Dr. Tony Holohan

As I have said, we are fully open to and encouraging of the conduct of well-organised validation studies. This is supported by all of the bodies I mentioned in my opening statement, which I can go back over if the Deputy wishes. Our position is exactly the same. We have good quality validation studies that inform us. We have had a recent study published by the team in the HSE led by Professor Keogan and Dr. Lorraine Doherty that has looked at asymptomatic populations and the performance of antigen tests among them in comparison with PCR tests. Where people who have a positive PCR test are also tested by antigen, it picks up the disease in 52% of those in asymptomatic situations. That is one validation study that has been conducted in this country. There is another study I have told the Deputy about also being planned for application in the third level sector. That is an example of the kind of study that is recommended by the Ferguson report. That is the way for us to go about establishing whether there is an evidence base to this.

We cannot simply start rolling out tests on the basis that people think they are a good idea without us supporting that with good quality scientific evidence generated from independent validation studies. That is our position. That is not at variance with the Ferguson report or with the position of all of the international bodies I have set out for the Deputy.

I thank Dr. Holohan.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Some of my colleagues have not had an opportunity to respond to some of the questions.

We have to be conscious that we have many committee members, so I ask for their responses to be as concise as possible.

Professor Mary Keogan

Validation is a normal part of diagnostics. Every test put into practice needs to be validated. This is not confined to antigen testing and the need over the past year. There have been four PCR tests which have not met the criteria to be introduced into our hospitals. Had we failed to validate, we would have missed the diagnosis in a number of patients, allowing outbreaks to proceed and denying patients appropriate treatment. Validation is a key part of the diagnostics for any test.

Internationally and in all of the countries the Deputy mentions, manufacturers' claims of sensitivity and specificity have not been borne out in many cases by independent field evaluations. In line with the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, ECDC, position, we need to do independent field evaluations to confirm or refute the manufacturers' claims. Most of these antigen tests were developed to investigate symptomatic individuals. The findings in symptomatic individuals cannot be extrapolated to asymptomatic individuals. It is a key part of our public health response that symptomatic individuals should not be going to school, work or events and that they should not be travelling. No test is perfect, and so, if symptomatic people continue to go about their business as if they are asymptomatic, that will cause problems. We are talking about the results in asymptomatic people.

One myth with antigen tests is that they are rapid and easy. To do one test is rapid and easy but to do 100 tests is extremely labour intensive. For example, in the Barcelona conference at the end of March, 80 nurses were deployed to work 12-hour days to get 5,000 people tested. It is key that members of this committee understand the enormous work involved. Self-testing is promoted as a way to get around this but these tests are open to manipulation. You can produce a false negative or positive test by using carbonated beverages. Therefore, self-testing is not used in any jurisdiction for a test-to-enable approach.

We will move on and then the other witnesses can come in as we go along. I want to take up a couple of points. We are not saying that rapid antigen testing should replace PCR testing. It is quite the reverse and we are saying they should be complementary to each other. Dr. Holohan makes reference to the Ferguson report and he is saying he is in agreement with it. Has the report been discussed by NPHET? We are putting it in the initial context for this committee around aviation and travel.

Is it fair to say that if someone takes a PCR test three days prior to arrival in Ireland, there is no guarantee that he or she will not have developed a high viral load and be very infectious when boarding a plane on the third day? When such a person boards a plane he or she could infect others on the plane. We believe that rapid antigen testing has a role to play post-departure. It can be done within an hour.

I take the point made by Professor Keogan on tests for a large number of people. I am talking about a test for one person going on a plane. Are there any situations to date where someone who travelled into Ireland with a negative PCR test was found after a number of days to be symptomatic, and went for a PCR test which turned out to be positive? Surely rapid antigen testing has a role to play as part of the toolkit alongside PCR in terms of reducing the risk of Covid regarding detection. No test is foolproof, including PCR testing. We accept PCR is the standard.

The report benchmarked antigen against PCR being at one. It is not at one. It is a great test and it is standard. I ask the witnesses to deal with that point. Has NPHET discussed the Ferguson report? My basic question concerns antigen testing being done pre-departure. Have passengers come into Ireland after a negative PCR test and then a couple of days later developed symptoms and had a positive PCR test? Contact tracing goes back 48 hours. All of the people on the plane would be deemed to have been close contacts and if the person had been tested pre-departure he or she would have been Covid positive.

Dr. Tony Holohan

With the permission of the Chair, I will ask some colleagues to supplement some of what I might say. I do not disagree with the idea that there is potential for antigen testing to work in a complementary way with PCR testing in any setting. We must validate that use and we do not have validation in the settings the Chairman has described that show some of the things he said.

On PCR, we recommend a test pre-travel and then a second test after five days. I will let Dr. Glynn come in on that in a moment. The Chairman is correct in saying that it is not a guarantee. There are no guarantees. If we find ourselves in a situation where we have people vaccinated, our position from a European point of view - we are talking about travel between countries when people are vaccinated - is that we will not require any evidence of any form of testing in regard to that travel.

That will not be a guarantee that there will not be a risk of infection because it is still technically possible. These vaccines do not render people fully immune. We know that. We think of the risk substantially to allow us to proceed. PCR is the best test that we have. In the trade it is known as the gold standard. It is accepted and the standard practice-----

Does Dr. Holohan accept-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

-----in performance terms is the PCR test.

Does Dr. Holohan accept that someone could have a negative PCR test three days prior to arrival but be Covid positive when boarding a plane? Could rapid antigen testing provide a role in that regard? Have there been cases-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

Of course there have. We have to show if that will be validated in practice. We do not have a study that establishes that. Is what the Chairman is saying plausible? Of course it is plausible. What should then happen is that a scientific hypothesis is developed, a study is put in place to test that hypothesis and a study conducted that will answer the question one way or the other.

On that basis, would Dr. Holohan support a pilot scheme for a flight between Ireland and another country? PCR testing would obviously be done alongside antigen testing for every passenger. That could validate the hypothesis I am putting forward, namely, to ensure that every person that potentially has Covid would be caught before boarding a plane.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Insofar as through any of those tests one could ever guarantee that, of course what the Chairman is suggesting is a good idea.

Dr. Tony Holohan

It is the kind of validation study that should be done. We should only apply our understanding of antigen testing when we have that kind of study.

That is fine. If Dr Holohan is agreeable to that, we deem that to be a step forward. In the limited time I have I want to discuss the delta variant in the UK. Why did NPHET recommend to Government to extend the quarantine period of testing for people who have been validated by other tests but still have to have a PCR test within five days? The digital green certificate will require no test. Someone who has had a negative PCR test will now have to get a negative PCR test five and ten days into quarantine. I ask NPHET to outline its thinking around why it made that recommendation to Government.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am happy to do that. I would like some of my colleagues to come in on some of the Chairman's earlier questions, if that is okay.

Professor Philip Nolan

The notion that one can have a negative PCR test today and a positive one after three days is not new to anybody. If I am exposed to the virus today it grows inside me undetected for three or four days. I could be exposed today, take a PCR test on Friday and be negative. Then the virus replicates very quickly so I could be PCR positive on Sunday or Monday. That is why, as the Chairman knows, quite frequently two tests are recommended because the virus can be latent.

It is interesting to propose that on top of that two test regime an additional rapid antigen test might pick up some cases that we are missing. It is not particularly plausible. It would mean that one would have to go from a position of having almost no virus or no virus detectable to having a very large viral load within 24 or 48 hours. In designing a pilot to check whether that would be a useful addition, one would have to be very careful about the number of people one includes. It might have to be very large study.

The fundamental point that we want to make is that as a country we need to prioritise. It is difficult to do a pilot study. We cannot have a scattergun approach, and decide to try something everywhere. It is important that we prioritise in what settings we will pilot the use of antigen testing. That will clearly be the settings where it will be a priori most likely to be useful. We then have to very carefully design the validation studies-----

Would Professor Nolan accept that aviation is one of those settings where we need to do a pilot study?

Professor Philip Nolan

As I said, it is an interesting proposal. It is for others, including Government, to think through all of the things that we might be interested in testing, what are the optimal-----

You would support it.

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

On the delta variant, this is an evolving situation from the UK. Data from it is coming through on a weekly basis. There was concern initially when it looked at early data that the incubation and infection periods might be slightly longer. That has not yet been confirmed, but is something it is continuing to investigate. Equally, the later test on day ten will cover the in-transit period of time from the UK for possible acquisition. Obviously, the majority of cases there are associated with the delta variant at this point in time.

To come back to the bigger question of what the committee feels antigen testing is adding to the PCR system that is already in place, PCR is the preferred test. It is a better test. In terms of the standards put in place before antigen tests were ever developed by the WHO and ECDC the antigen tests we have do not perform to those standards in the asymptomatic cohort.

This is probably not for today, but it would be useful to try to get back to asking what problem we are trying to solve. Is PCR too expensive? Is it too labour-intensive? It cannot be inaccessible. We are doing 175,000 tests a week. We need to try to address the fundamental principle because PCR is a better test. Antigen testing in the asymptomatic cohort will miss one in every two cases.

The case that is missed may well be infectious and may be the Delta or another variant. The public health measures that we have introduced are-----

I am sorry Dr. de Gascun, but I would dispute that because that was over a 30-day period. During the most infectious period, it is just as good.

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

Respectfully, I would disagree. The average length of time for PCR positivity, based on the evidence, is about 17 days, with a range of 15 to 18 days. There is an awful lot of opinion that has been offered as fact and that-----

I am sorry, but other members wish to contribute.

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

The HSE report is real-world evidence from Ireland-----

(Interruptions).

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

We need more pilot studies in the real world and in aviation-----

At their most infectious-----

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

Unfortunately, the evidence is not there to back that up, with respect. It is opinion, based on CT value across a population and, unfortunately, a CT value is not-----

Dr. De Gascun is willing to go along with a pilot scheme, which is welcome.

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

Absolutely, and no pun intended.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will ask Dr. Glynn to address the question on the UK because we have an emerging concern based on the changing epidemiology and the component of transmission attributable to this new Delta variant throughout the UK.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

The reason for the increasing concern on the Delta variant is that it now accounts for over 90% of cases in the UK. In the past few weeks, we have seen a deteriorating situation there, with a 50% increase, week on week, in the number of cases reported across the UK, with a doubling time in some regions of less than a week. We have seen an increase of 15% in hospitalisation, week on week, over the past couple of weeks. That all gives us cause for concern.

Of course, the ultimate measure is to stop travel. That is the only way we can entirely eliminate risk. The next option is to institute a quarantine period of a full 14 days. The next option after that is to decide on a regime that allows release from quarantine based on testing. The recommended approach now in relation to overseas arrivals from Britain is that they should have a negative PCR test prior to departure, a not-detected test again at day five, post arrival, and a further not-detected test at day ten. That is obviously for people who are not fully vaccinated arriving here from Great Britain.

Thank you. Deputy O'Rourke is next.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance today. I am conscious of the fact that Dr. Holohan and Dr. De Gascun were with us on 2 November last. At that time, we had no testing - either PCR or antigen testing - but we had a very similar conversation about the need for validation, the importance of validation and real-world testing. In the meantime, a number of reports have been published. We had one in October and two more in April from HIQA. We had a report from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, ECDC, in November and May. We also had the Ferguson report in April and the more recent report from the HSE. There have been lots of conversations around comparisons, infectious versus non-infectious, symptomatic versus asymptomatic, serial versus single-point in time, self-administered versus laboratory administered, sensitivity, specificity, different platforms and testing strategies and yet we are back at the place we were last November, saying that there is not enough evidence. We have heard very strong and compelling evidence from a range of people - and the witnesses will have heard this themselves - who say that serial antigen testing could be an improvement on the regime that we currently have in place. I take that as an opportunity. What they are saying is that antigen testing could be an improvement on what we have now which is the single-point in time PCR test 72 hours prior to departure, with people free to go about their business after that. The weakness of the current regime must be recognised, as well as the potential of antigen testing to improve it.

Why have no pilot studies taken place in the aviation sector since 3 November? Who made that decision? Who decided to focus more generally on the meat industry and the third level sector?

Dr. Tony Holohan

The situation has changed significantly since 2 November when Dr. De Gascun and I were before this committee. We now have a very substantial proportion of the population vaccinated and will shortly find ourselves in the happy position where we think those people will be able to travel freely without the need for any form of testing. That is a remarkably changed situation in relation to travel from the one that pertained when we met this committee last when frankly, any basis we would have had for expressing optimism about the future of travel was very guarded. We are much less guarded about that now. We are on the cusp of being able to see people being enabled to travel once they are vaccinated, with all the appropriate public health measures being applied to both travel and to what people do after they travel. That is a really good situation but we will continue to advocate that people who are not yet vaccinated wait. We are very close to the point where the majority of people in this country who are currently the target of vaccination will be offered a vaccine. That is a much changed situation.

The Deputy, perhaps mistakenly, said at the beginning that we had no form of testing or tracing but that is not the case. PCR testing has been in place since the very early days of this pandemic and there were many-----

Yes, but not as part of the protocol for international travel. That did not happen on a mandatory basis until 2021.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Most of this part of the world has had recommendations against all non-essential travel for a long period of time. Work has been done around Europe that has put us in a situation where we will see, with the digital green certificate in place and a range of other measures to support it, the resumption of airline travel and we are all looking forward to that.

Could the witnesses answer my question on who makes the decision around pilot studies? How does one go about establishing a pilot study? Why have they been done in the meat industry, which is appropriate, and in the third level sector but not in the aviation sector? This committee wrote to various Ministers on 5 May recommending that a pilot study be undertaken in the aviation sector to provide the evidence base for which the witnesses are calling.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will ask one or two of my colleagues to come in and support what I am going to say. We depend on the sectors themselves to come forward. What we have seen is the meat sector come forward, very responsibly, in respect of its own staff and put arrangements in place for public health measures of all forms to limit transmission among staff and that has included the use of antigen tests. We are happy to support the evaluation of all of that but that happened because the meat sector and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine stepped forward. Similarly, we are seeing the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, supported by funding from Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, and the third level bodies, coming forward-----

Sorry to interrupt but who takes the lead in that? We heard from Dr. Niamh Power last week or the week before and she specifically outlined how she proactively established the antigen testing process at the airports here. That strikes me as the sector putting its hand up and saying it was ready to play a role. Is it the Department that takes the lead or the Minister?

Dr. Tony Holohan

What I would say is that the safe and effective resumption of every part of the sectors of society that have been the subject of restrictions, either social or economic, will mean those self-same sectors coming forward with their own plans. They understand our public health advice. It is clear, simple and straightforward. It is applied in the form of guidance, with appropriate oversight. The vast majority of society has taken that on very responsibly. They take unto themselves the responsibility, the risks and the management of those risks in the resumption of those activities. The Deputy asked about pilot studies of antigen testing, serial testing in meat plants and the planned testing for the third level sector and that is exactly how they have done it. That is the responsible way for it to happen, with the sectors themselves, in seeking to make their activities as safe as they can be, applying all of the measures that we recommend in the plans that they have for resumption. Whether one is talking about pubs, restaurants, airlines and workplaces of all kinds, that is exactly what is happening.

The plans for the individual sectors are not being drawn up by NPHET. We do not have knowledge of the pub industry or the school sector in the way they do themselves. They have developed their own guidance. In a number of cases, it is world class guidance. For example, schools are applying the guidance in such a way as to minimise the risk of transmission in the school environment, which has allowed-----

In Dr. Holohan's experience, would there be a role in this for the Department of Transport, the Department of Health or another Department? I am sure the sector is watching this meeting. It has been publishing reports as far back as last July calling for the implementation of such a testing regime. From its perspective, this is about aligning the interests of public health with public confidence that whatever international travel happens is done safely. That is the objective.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will invite colleagues to reply, if that is okay, but I will make a point first. It is one thing to call for the use of a test where the evidence to support such use does not exist, which has been the case heretofore.

But we could create or generate that evidence. There is considerable experience around NPHET's table and within the various Departments to design a suitable study that compares performance. Now is an opportune time when there is limited travel and there is PCR testing in place. We have not had such a pilot study since 5 May. Are there other resistances to a study?

Dr. Tony Holohan

From our point of view, there are no resistances to the development and application of properly designed pilot studies to answer the reasonable questions the Deputy is raising, but we have nothing to do with that.

Dr. Holohan, I want to-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will ask Dr. Glynn to respond.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

One of the general misconceptions is that we have just not bothered to do these pilot studies. The reality is that many of the types of study that the Deputy is talking about have not been done in Ireland or internationally. It is not as simple as turning up at the airport with a couple of thousand antigen tests, handing them out and seeing what they show. A test validation study comprises a set of steps and there is a range of concerns to do with ethical acceptability and the performance and logistics of the test, all of which have to be considered as part of the work. When we say we do not have evidence, it is not that we do not have evidence in Ireland. Rather, there is no evidence internationally. Other countries have not been able to do these studies to the necessary standard. To give an example of that,-----

Dr. Glynn, I-----

(Interruptions).

Dr. Ronan Glynn

We have done this work in Ireland over the past six months to give a description of the kinds of issue that have to be thought about when doing such a pilot study.

Many other countries are allowing antigen testing. We are not. The report that NPHET produced late on Monday evening was commissioned last October, which is nearly nine months ago. It strikes me that consideration of a pilot scheme in aviation would have fit into that report perfectly. NPHET's caution has served us well and I compliment its work. Nevertheless, we need a pilot scheme to provide the level of validation NPHET is seeking. If such a scheme is introduced by the Department of Transport or the Department of Health, would NPHET support and expedite it?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will ask Dr. Keogan to reply, as she is one of the chairs of the group that produced the report.

Professor Mary Keogan

It is important to consider what is involved in validation. As Dr. Glynn stated, it is not as simple as turning up with a couple of thousand antigen tests. We need to go through planning and ensure that the study is adequately powered in terms of epidemiology so that we get useful information. There are international guidelines about the size of the cohort required. There are problems with validating in asymptomatic cases. It is very difficult to get the number of positives required. The ethical and consent issues need to be considered. The scheme needs to be set up in a safe way that looks after the health and safety of the people performing the test and of the people being tested. There needs to be GDPR compliance with the gathering of appropriate data and the follow-up.

It took a large team of people to do this work. Reading the report, the Chairman may feel it was easy to write and could have been done more quickly. We worked on this for seven days per week since last October, though, so I beg to differ. It required an enormous amount of work. I thank all of the participants who allowed themselves to be double swabbed as well as the scientists from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the scientists employed by the HSE who did the work. It was very labour intensive.

I thank Professor Keogan.

I wish to make a final point. I fully appreciate all of the work that has been done, including on the report, but if we had started earlier, we would be further down the line. We could have started this work last November if we had made that decision and we would now have a different evidence base.

We are talking about pure science, including randomised controlled studies. No one knows better than the witnesses the difficult and complex environment in which we are fighting the virus. There was no opportunity to do so, but we have taken many measures that have not undergone the level of scrutiny that we are proposing to apply to antigen testing. Many people might wonder why.

I thank the Deputy. I will move on to-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

I wish to make a couple of points in reply to the Deputy. We are not talking about randomised controlled trials, RCTs. We are talking about real world evaluation. It is also important that we-----

That was not the point I was making, but I understand that these are not RCTs. I just mean that we were talking about pure science and controlled studies.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am not certain that it has been heard, but from our point of view and notwithstanding our concerns about the variants, if we can keep transmission down to its current level, if Europe remains in this encouraging position and if we get our population as well as the European population to the planned level of vaccination over the course of the coming weeks, we will see an extensive resumption of air travel in late summer without the need for any form of testing.

I thank Dr. Holohan.

I thank Dr. Holohan for his presentation. He gave us some light at the end of a long tunnel when he spoke about the free movement of people to the greatest extent possible within the next number of months.

I wish to discuss the pilot study. How long would it take to do to the standard NPHET expects?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I might ask more expert colleagues to answer that specific question.

Professor Philip Nolan

Two issues would need to be considered first. First, it is not that we have no evidence. Before we go into any assessment, we have significant prior evidence that these tests are less useful in the screening of asymptomatic cases.

Professor Philip Nolan

In fact, they are not recommended for such use. Before one goes off and invests in designing pilots to be added to the highly effective regime that we already have, one has to consider how likely it is that there will be a positive finding.

It is not possible to say how long it would take until someone sits down and sets out the use case through which these tests would be validated. To give a simple sense of the matter along the lines that Professor Keogan mentioned, if we go out tomorrow and administer tests to 100,000 people in Ireland, we are likely to find 100 to 200 infections. We would not be testing 100,000, but 100 to 200 people. As Dr. Holohan stated, doing these pilots is very challenging and takes time, and before one embarks upon a pilot, one must judge whether there is a likelihood that it will-----

I take Professor Nolan's point, but will he comment on how other countries, particularly those in Europe, seem to be satisfied with antigen testing?

We heard from a representative from one of the airports in Rome that had a bilateral arrangement with the United States so there was free movement of passengers, on that particular route, which was based on antigen testing. Are the witnesses familiar with the report or given it consideration?

Professor Philip Nolan

Lots of individuals and organisations do lots of things but, as the Royal Statistical Society has pointed out, few of them are well designed. Some of them are publically commissioned and some are privately commissioned. Dr. De Gascun or Professor Keogan are better placed to comment on international practice.

Professor Mary Keogan

The Senator needs to consider one thing. We, in Ireland, built up our PCR capacity very quickly to a high level. A number of other countries are extremely challenged in their PCR capacity and, therefore, in the absence of being able to offer PCR are using antigen tests where they really would like to have a PCR. The fact that somebody is using them does not mean that it is their preferred option.

To be honest, one of the huge misconceptions is that if one is antigen negative, one is not infectious. Our data from the meat plant validation show that while overall there is 52% sensitivity, of those people who have been missed, over half of them have PCR positivity at a level that would correlate with infectiousness and being a risk. So it is not correct to say that if one is antigen negative, one is not infectious. In fact, having waded through all of these data, some extremely strongly positive people, who would almost certainly be culture positive, have come up negative on antigen tests.

To be honest, if we were starting a validation in the aviation sector then I doubt if we would improve on available PCR capacity, and we have abundant PCR capacity. In the same way as when clinical services come to me and ask about using point-of-care testing, I often look at point-of-care molecular testing that will give a much better outcome, rather than antigen testing.

We have become too polarised and too focused on antigen testing. As Dr. De Gascun said earlier, we need to be clear what is the question that we are asking because good diagnostics involves getting the best available test to answer the question that is being asked. Tests do not exist in a vacuum or tests do not have a role in a vacuum. We have got to define what is the question, what do we want to achieve, how do we best achieve that and then look to a validation study of the best and most likely to work solutions.

I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said but surely the question has changed significantly in the past six months if one works on the basis of risk analysis. Let us consider the level of vaccination and the very significant reduction in death and hospitalisation. Surely the question now is within reason, how do we get people back travelling as safely as possible, while recognising there is still potential for some spread, yet recognising that the potential for death or hospitalisation is greatly reduced? How, on a wider level, can we support an industry that has a significant impact on our economy? How do we get some level of normality back into the sector? Perhaps these questions are not for the witnesses. These are wider governmental issues but NPHET makes a significant input into them.

Dr. Holohan talked about the level of vaccination and how well the programme is working. I say well done to everybody for that. What is the justification for restricting the people who are fully vaccinated from international travel, particularly within Europe, until 19 July? Today, there are people who are fully vaccinated and could start travelling again because some airlines have opened routes. What is the justification for the delay from the perspective of NPHET? Is there a justification?

Dr. Tony Holohan

As the Senator rightly says, at the moment we are doing two things. We are doing our best to control transmission through public health measures. At the moment, incidence has been falling over the past couple of weeks in this country. We have seen encouraging moves in that direction, even though we are closely watching the Indian variant, what is happening in the UK and now what is happening in Northern Ireland. More and more people are being vaccinated. Those are the things that will allow us to safely resume airline travel and have people flying again, without the need for us to put in hurdles such as testing, where we do not believe that testing will add anything in their way. We think that when we have a low incidence rate and a high level of vaccination, we can have a safe resumption without the need or recourse to testing.

It might be worth us working through a worked example of the current prevalence rate in this country and I have a note on that.

The Government made the decision about the resumption of airline travel as and from 19 July, and reflecting on all of the different matters to which the Government had to give consideration to, including all of the arrangements that must be now put in train to enable that in terms of certification, which the Senator is familiar with-----

Is Dr. Holohan saying that 19 July is more an operational matter than a response based on risk?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am saying that the Government made the decision that resumption will be from 19 July.

Was that not necessarily a recommendation made by NPHET?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We think that the arrangements that will apply from then, with the certification that will support them, will allow people who are vaccinated and the people who have had the disease, so will have PCR evidence of having had the disease within the last nine months, which will be a lot of people being enabled to travel safely. They will have to think about where they are going. They will have to think about how to minimise the risk while they are travelling. They will have to think about how to comply with the appropriate public health guidance in the places that they are travelling to. These are all the standard precautions that we will continue to advise. Yes, we are looking forward to the resumption of that travel from then without recourse or need for any form of testing.

I am sorry Dr. Holohan but a large number of members wish to comment. Perhaps members might ask questions and Dr. Holohan's colleagues could answer.

I thank Dr. Holohan and his team for coming here today. The committee has held a number of hearings on this specific issue and heard compelling evidence from a wide range of witnesses. They all have recommended that we use antigen testing in order to restore international travel. The impact of not using antigen testing is being felt hard by the aviation sector in this country and more damage will be done to this critical industry if we do not embrace antigen testing in full.

Can Dr. Holohan outline the formal NPHET position on the use of the antigen test? Without doubt, other countries have embraced the use of antigen testing in full. They rolled out pilot schemes, learned from them and now are using antigen testing in international travel and across society to open up cultural events. Antigen testing is widespread yet for the last number of months we, here in Ireland, have had our head in the sand and do not have a coherent position.

I welcome that Dr. Holohan has said it would be a good idea to roll out a pilot scheme in terms of international travel. Obviously the State and NPHET, which advises the State, need to get behind the initiative, step up and give timelines. I ask Dr. Holohan to please outline when, where and how the pilot scheme will happen.

Today's meeting is our third hearing on this issue. Last year, we raised these matters in terms of antigen tests. We, on this island, all want to move forward and get back to the rhythm of normality, of which international travel plays a key part.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We accept that. We are on the point of a widespread resumption of that if things stay where they are currently at in Europe and, in a few weeks' time, one could find oneself in a situation where we see a significant range of travel being available to people.

I do not want to be wasting the Deputy's time repeating what I have said about vaccination and all of that, and people have had evidence of recovery from the disease. We do not have a dependence in relation to PCR or antigen testing to enable that, and I am not entirely clear where the Deputy thinks the use of antigen testing in what has happened in recent months would have changed things for travel in this country relative to other countries in Europe. I am not clear on that from the Deputy's question. The position around Europe has been a fairly homogenous one in terms of the risks attending to travel. What is changing that now is Europe is getting into a better position epidemiologically with the disease as a result of the control measures for the most part that are in place and the economic and social restrictions that Europe has had in place.

We have had a range of arrangements in place in this country, of course, which are being eased in an evidenced-based way, as they are across Europe. On the position we found ourselves in, we had, in European terms, the fifth lowest cases in the course of this pandemic in this country and the sixth lowest number of deaths, and we count cases and deaths more comprehensively than any other country. That has been the effect of the measures we have had in place in this country.

Travel has been restricted right across Europe, and not selectively in this country. It is not entirely clear to me from what the Deputy said, if I am picking it up correctly, how, if we had done something differently on antigen testing, in spite of the fact we do not have evidence to support what the Deputy said, it would have changed things in terms of people's ability to travel over the course of recent months.

I will ask other colleagues to contribute.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

A Deputy asked what our position was on antigen testing. It is very important we understand at any point in this conversation exactly what we are talking about. Are we talking about repeated serial testing? Are we talking about one-off testing? Are we talking about testing before events? Are we talking about symptomatic people versus asymptomatic people? Another way to look at it is what settings are they are appropriate in. For many months now we have said they can be used in red-light settings to pick up extra cases in outbreaks. Antigen tests have been available in this country for many months for that purpose led by public health specialists throughout the country where they deem it appropriate. The second is in high-risk settings where you want to do serial testing, for example, as we are doing in the meat-processing facilities. That has been in place and has been looked at on an ongoing basis over many months now. The third is in green light settings, specifically relating to asymptomatic people going into events and various other settings where people do not know they have the disease.

Rather than taking our word for it, it is worth looking at what the Infectious Diseases Society of America has said in recent weeks about this. It is very simple. It is one line. It simply says that for asymptomatic individuals with risk of exposure to SARS-CoV-2, a rapid PCR or laboratory-based test should be used rather than a single rapid antigen test. That is the current position of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. It is backed up by the Royal Statistical Society's report from the UK. It is backed by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, ECDC, and by the WHO. It is not just us saying it. We have to be led by the evidence. In that regard, I might bring in Professors Cormican or Keogan. Ultimately, if we move away from speaking about the evidence, all we are doing is seeing who speaks better. It is eminence over evidence. It is opinion over fact. At all times, we have to be very careful as we go through this that we are led by what the evidence is telling us as opposed to what we want to be true.

Professor Martin Cormican

I will make a couple of points.

Very briefly.

Professor Martin Cormican

I will try to be brief. First, it is important from an infection prevention and control point of view, which is my brief, to be very clear that no testing replaces the key message that if you have symptoms, you should be self-isolating. There is no test that will substitute for that message. I think we all know it but it needs to be repeated.

Second, as colleagues have said, it is not about antigen testing versus PCR testing. It is about what is the problem you are trying to solve and which test is fast enough, reliable enough and cost-effective enough to be deployed in the setting. Being for or against antigen testing is like being for or against the Phillips screwdriver. You choose the screwdriver for the job that you want to do. Nobody is for or against antigen testing. It is about the specific tool for the job that you want to do and that the evidences bears-----

But Professor-----

Professor Martin Cormican

On the airport side, in particular, you are looking at essentially filtering the flow of people. PCR is the best available filter we have. Antigen testing, we can see from the evidence, will filter out fewer people who are carrying the virus than PCR will. You can make a policy decision - some countries may have made a policy decision - to use the filter which has bigger pore sizes and some countries may use the smaller ones, but that is a policy decision. What we need to be very clear on is that the pore size in the PCR filter is smaller and it is a better filter and the pore size in the antigen test is a bigger pore size and it is a less effective filter. You can choose which filter you want but it is important from a scientific point of view to be clear on what you are choosing, what the differences are and how effective each of those two filters are if you choose to use them. Right now, we do not have the evidence about how effective that filter with the bigger pore size is.

I thank Professor Cormican. Equally, you may have applications for two different types of screwdriver which both do different elements of work.

Professor Martin Cormican

You do and we do use the two different types of screwdriver. It is just which is the best one for the particular job.

Absolutely. I will move now to Deputy Ó Murchú.

I thank Dr. Holohan and the rest of NPHET for attending. I do not want to go back over the ground that has been covered. In summary, similar to what Deputy O'Rourke stated earlier, if we had started putting together a pilot scheme earlier, we would be in a different place where we would have the evidence to assess, particularly as regards aviation.

What NPHET members are saying is the aviation sector would have a responsibility. Obviously, they would state they have done some elements of work on this, but beyond that, Government would need to take a lead, no more than it is taking a lead on antigen testing in third level. The idea, as presented to us, was that sometimes serial antigen testing, especially in real time, is a better test around transmissibility at that time, and I suppose that would have to be built into it. I certainly will not get into the ins and outs of the parameters of a test, but I assume we would need those sectors to step up as quickly as possibly and to ensure that gets done.

Beyond that, what I am hearing from NPHET members is that they are talking about safe opening from the point of view of the roll-out of vaccinations, and at the same time everybody accepts the necessity of connectivity across this island and in the State as regards aviation. In that regard, I would appreciate if they could give any other indicators of anything else that can be done to ensure we have an opening up of the aviation section that it is as safe as possible and that gives people the ease to travel while being assured it can be done in a safe way.

I have a question, I assume to Professor Nolan, on whether we have game-planned the timeline of our roadmap in relation to the Delta variant and it taking the lead as the main virus as we open up. I suppose it is a battle of time in terms of the Delta variant versus the vaccine roll-out. I would appreciate if it I could answers on that.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Deputy Ó Murchú answered his own question there at the end. It is about time. It is about buying ourselves as much time, in the face of an organism that is likely to become dominant in many parts of Europe if things continue as they are in the UK, to get us protected as much as possible through vaccination.

Professor Philip Nolan

It is about vaccination. It is also about detecting as many potentially importable cases as possible before you potentially import them. Missing a percentage of imported cases becomes critically important if, within that percentage, you are introducing new variants. The Deputy put his finger on the fundamental reason we are concerned in the safe reopening of travel to detect every possible case, and not only a percentage of cases, that might be coming into the country.

To answer the Deputy's second question about modelling, how quickly a more transmissible variant becomes dominant depends upon its transmission advantage, and we are not entirely sure what it is yet.

However, in the context of us having 200 to 300 new cases per day, it also depends, sadly, on how many cases we are likely to import. It depends on the number of imported new variants plus the rate at which it transmits within the population. Frankly, one can get a wide range of answers when one plugs that into different models. Models are not entirely useful in this context, because the assumptions are so broad. However, they point us to one thing, which is the vital role of surveillance at the point of entry and rapid public health intervention at the point of outbreak. These are the two things we know are critically important.

Dr. Tony Holohan

If we have an emergence or a concern about a confluence of different issues, which we do, it is around some of things Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned. If unvaccinated people are travelling to places in which they are mingling with unvaccinated people from other parts of Europe, for example, over the course of the coming weeks as we open up airline travel and are not following the advice to avoid travel and coming back to this country having perhaps come from areas with higher incidence or areas which have genuine problems with variants of concerns - and some parts of Europe are not testing as readily as we are for some of that and do not know the extent of the problems they may have with variants of concern - we could find ourselves in a situation in which, for our own transmission reasons, we have been able to open up things such as indoor hospitality and there is an opportunity for people to mingle indoors in this country who have been travelling unvaccinated and have been exposed to variants. That could threaten the continued progress we are making and will be a risk to some of the congregation that will be necessary to resume normal or near-normal, for example, third level education in the autumn.

We saw at the beginning of this year, the confluence of a number of different factors such as our opening up, the change in behaviour, the time of the year and the emergence of the, at the time, B117 variant. However, we have a concern about a confluence of factors now in that there is a new variant, international travel and people who are unvaccinated mingling with people abroad and coming back into this country taking advantage of the social opportunities which may be offered if we are opening up indoor dining and so on in July. That is an emerging concern.

Anything the committee can do to help in terms of promoting that message would be welcome.

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

I want to highlight one thing. There have been a couple of suggestions we could have moved in this space earlier. I want to acknowledge the work of the aviation centre. I know they have been having meetings since this time last year in this space, because I was involved in a couple of those meetings. However, as the pandemic evolved, we had to prioritise. The first priority was to build up our testing capacity on-island for symptomatic individuals. Then our priority was residential care facilities and nursing homes. We had the meat processing plant and hospital outbreaks.

Our testing strategy has had to evolve and prioritise the most important areas of need. It is not that aviation was not important but given the restrictions on travel not only from Ireland but also from many other countries into Ireland because of our epidemiological situation at a point in time, it was difficult to do the pilots in those sectors. As Dr. Keogan has alluded to, it takes an awful long time to put in place the right pilot project to answer the question Deputy Ó Murchú is trying to ask. It is not that the aviation sector has not been willing to do this, it has just been challenging, given the fact there has been restriction on travel and the priorities have shifted over time, through no fault of its own.

The future out of this, as Dr. Holohan has said, is through vaccination and in a general sense, immunity. We need the population to be protected and vaccination is the best way of getting towards that direction. Probably 10% - 15% of the population has been infected over the course of the pandemic, so they will have natural immunity. However, as this virus becomes endemic, the way we are all protected is through immunity of some shape or form. Obviously, we want to use vaccination for that, so people do not get the disease and do not end up in hospital or with long-term morbidity. Ultimately, vaccination is the way through this.

We want to normalise this virus over the coming six months. We want it to become a virus along the lines of influenza. They are obviously different viruses, but we want to move towards that approach in which a person will be tested because he or she is sick, going into hospital, part of an outbreak or in another different setting. We do not want to medicalise normal life. We want people to get back to travel. They will still have to follow the public health guidelines. They will still have to be careful because other countries will not be in the same situation.

This is obviously coming down to vaccination and immunity, but if a pilot on antigen testing was proposed by a Government Minister, working alongside aviation, I assume NPHET would be in support of this.

I think Dr. Holohan already said NPHET supports this.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Yes, I did. In principle, we do not have any difficulty with the idea of sectors studying the potential value of antigen testing or anything else in their own sectors. We have been neither a break on that nor advising against that. In fact, our position has been one of - as with any other thing - wanting the use of these tests to be supported by well-constructed and designed validation studies. Some sectors have already come forward with that.-----

There will be follow-on questions from members. I have quite a number of speakers and we are restricted on time.

I welcome the NPHET team to our meeting today and thank it for its presentation. I have raised the subject of antigen testing on numerous occasions. I have raised it with the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and various Ministers and we have political consensus, in that antigen testing should be used. We then have professors disagreeing among themselves. We have heard evidence from Dr. Mina and Professor Ferguson and many other professionals and today we hear a counter-argument by the professors around the table at NPHET.

I want to use my couple of minutes to make a few statements of fact, on behalf of the people who are most impacted by this dithering on antigen and whether it should be used. It is a fact that following the advice of NPHET, the Government imposed serious, severe and prolonged restrictions on international travel. As a result of that, the aviation sector has been crippled. The consequences for many thousands of people who depend on the sector for a livelihood have been devastating.

The hopes, dreams and aspirations of workers in that sector have been shattered. Their lives are in turmoil. They despair about their future and ability to survive. Those workers, throughout the aviation sector, are stricken with deep fear and anxiety. They feel the ability to control their own future has been snatched from them by NPHET and Government policy. They feel their financial security and well-being has been sacrificed to NPHET decisions.

The last year and a half has been a traumatic and upsetting time for everybody in this country. However, no one has paid a higher price than the aviation workers. They are outraged. We have been listening to them and it is important to convey that message today. They are outraged NPHET has stubbornly objected to the use of antigen testing. They look on in dismay, while Dr. Holohan and NPHET dismiss the use of antigen testing. They cannot understand their logic and rationale.

They ask us to ask Dr. Holohan and NPHET why they steadfastly contradict international experts and defy the European Commission, which said we should be using antigen testing? Why are we so different in Ireland? Why is Dr. Holohan and NPHET's advice so different from other countries throughout Europe using antigen testing? Are Dr. Holohan and NPHET saying these countries are not making this decision based on evidence or validation? Are Dr. Holohan and NPHET saying these other countries are irresponsible in using antigen testing? Why are we so different? That is what the public is asking.

Why are experts in so many other jurisdictions encouraging governments to embrace and utilise antigen testing to control the spread of the virus? Why is our advice so at odds with that advice? That is the contradiction I need to understand today. Are we saying all of these other countries are wrong and we are correct? If we are saying that, I need to hear the justification for it, because I see no logic or justification in Dr. Holohan and NPHET's decision not to endorse the roll-out of antigen testing.

Other sectors were mentioned earlier. The fact is the construction and meat industries, which were riddled with outbreaks at the outset of the pandemic, became impatient.

They were frustrated with no direct advice from NPHET on how to control the virus and they brought in antigen testing, which has been very successful. They moved ahead of NPHET, decided to use antigen testing and have done so very effectively. Therefore, antigen testing is an important aspect.

Finally, we have discussed antigen testing for nearly 12 months, such testing has been raised on numerous occasions at Oireachtas level and now a consensus has been reached. Have the members of NPHET made any attempt to engage with the various professionals who promote the use of antigen testing? The message that we have gotten back is that the door is closed and there is no engagement. If we are going to talk about introducing a pilot project at this late stage then will NPHET make an effort to reach out to the people who have expertise in this area?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will bring in some colleagues to answer. I cannot accept a number of assertions that the Deputy has made about our motivation, position and advice. Our position on antigen testing is not as articulated by the Deputy. Our position on antigen testing is that it is used in situations where that is supported by evidence. We have outlined already, on a number of occasions this afternoon, the circumstances in which such use is endorsed by us, and it is made available in symptomatic and high-risk situations.

Dr. Glynn or Dr. Keogan will come back to the meat processing examples in a moment. Many other countries use antigen testing in a variety of different settings and for different purposes. Members will have heard Professor Keogan mention earlier that, for example, it can relate to the relative availability of PCR capacity. We have been in the fortunate position that we built up PCR testing capacity to a very high level and it is well in excess right now of what our current demand for PCR testing. So we have a better test and it is available, which is why we use it. Many other countries are not in that happy position.

In terms of the relative position, which I outlined earlier, we have seen in relative terms that the incidence of this infection in this country has been one of the better in Europe, and the impact of that in terms of the number of deaths. Earlier when the Deputy asked for NPHET's position on testing and the impact of NPHET's advice on the airline industry what he did not mention was the virus. It is Covid that has created that impact. The measures that are in place regarding the restriction of airline travel impact airline travel all over the world and it is because of the following. Quite simply, when this infection began, we had no natural immunity as a global population, we had no vaccines and we had no drugs to treat this disease. All we had available to us was the relatively crude means of keeping people apart from each other for long enough to stop the transmission of that infection. Unfortunately, at a global level, that had a big impact on many activities and one of those clearly was the airline industry. It simply is not the case to say that we, in some selective way, in this country through advice from NPHET selectively impacted the airline industry on a basis that was not proportionate to our concern about the transmission of this infection.

We followed, for the most part, the international guidance that came from international bodies and measures that were in step with measures that were happening around the world but, in particular, in this part of the world. What people must bear in mind is that the spread of this infection through successive waves has seen Europe in the path of each of those waves over the course of the last 15 months. We have been at the epicentre of this since the get-go and that has had a big impact on a relatively small country that has such open relations with the rest of Europe. That is the reason we have had that impact. It is the virus. Our recommendations are based on interrupting the transmission of the virus. Our evidence tells us that we have done a good job in this country through the efforts that ordinary people have made to comply with public health guidance. That is what has, in relative terms, given protection around incidence, etc.

The Deputy talked about antigen testing in a global sense without recognising that antigen testing applied to symptomatic, serial and one-off. Whether it is symptomatic or asymptomatic is entirely different. We had a different view in relation to it in each of those settings.

Professor Mary Keogan

Thankfully, in order to do a validation study in a sector then the sector must be functioning. We cannot do a validation while international travel is shut down.

We can learn a lot from the meat plants because the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine worked very closely with the steering group, and we designed the study collaboratively. We designed the study in a way that it would bring key learnings for the meat processing plants and also information that would be of interest to other sectors. I would like to acknowledge the role of John Salmon who is a member of the group because he played an enormous role.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine recruited a lot of its scientists to support the validation study. There is no way that we could have succeeded in testing over 5,000 individuals in parallel with PCR in the meat plants without that support from the sector.

Please explain how other European countries and the European Commission can approve the use of antigen testing. Is NPHET saying that they have done it without validation?

Professor Mary Keogan

On the travel cert there is an option and member states choose whether to recognise PCR or antigen or both. Many countries have not yet declared whether they will accept antigen testing.

Seventeen countries in Europe have already declared that they will accept the test so why is Ireland so different?

Professor Mary Keogan

A number of discussions are going on at European level. I am involved in the technical working group that looks at antigen tests. There are countries that have less access to PCR than we have or have other pressures. We do have the advantage of being an island where we can control travel a little bit more. We have the advantage of having more than adequate PCR capacity.

We are in a race between the variants and vaccination. As Professor Nolan alluded to earlier, we do not want to start importing cases when we have the option of using a better test.

Professor Martin Cormican

In terms of the decisions that are made in different countries, I would just go back to the filter analogy. Some countries may have chosen to use a filter with a smaller pore size. We know that antigen testing will let more infectious people through than the PCR test. So some people make policy decisions about which filter they are going to use. We are using the higher grade filter and some countries may choose to use the lower grade filter. It is a question of which filter one chooses to use.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. I also thank them for the expertise and commitment that they have shown to this country over the past 14 months. Their guidance and advice has undoubtedly saved lives. The vaccine roll-out, walk-in tests and the PCR tests have been really well done so I compliment the team.

It is important that we take the advice of experts, especially experts who have responsibility here at home. It is important that we also represent constituents in protecting their health but also to protect their livelihoods. What we are trying to do here is take the expert advice and see how that can be applied so that we can have that successful outcome for the public.

In every piece of tested equipment or process there are always cheap varieties, which may not be accurate or reliable, and one can go to much more expensive highly reliable and accurate pieces of equipment and test processes. Are the witnesses concerned that with a rapid or large scale roll-out of antigen testing that we would find it difficult to maintain standards, procedures, and the management and compliance monitoring of that kind of testing?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I might refer the question to Dr. de Gascun or Professor Keogan.

Please try to confine it to two minutes because the member has two further questions and the time slot is seven minutes.

Professor Mary Keogan

It is extremely important that any testing is rolled out in the context of quality management systems. There is checking of each batch that comes in, checking of batches of antigen tests against variants to ensure their performance is not compromised, membership of external quality assurance schemes and so forth. We have very detailed near-patient testing guidelines which should be applied in any setting where the tests are considered for use.

The second question is on the logistics of rolling out antigen testing. We had experts before the committee last week who talked about Croke Park being a possibility, with 80,000 people in it in September with the use of antigen testing. It was mentioned earlier, I believe it was by Professor Keogan, that a 5,000 person event took 12 people over 12-hour shifts to try to apply antigen testing. Logistically, the issue that must be considered with hundreds of thousands of people going through an airport or 70,000 or 80,000 people going to Croke Park or Electric Picnic is what can go wrong in those situations if it is not controlled properly.

Professor Mary Keogan

At the Barcelona concert at the end of March there were 5,000 attendees and there were 80 nurses working a 12-hour shift to get the 5,000 people tested. This is massively labour intensive. It is very manual. Each test takes 15 to 20 minutes to perform. There generally is no space to have people sit there and wait for the results. In most settings, people come in, are swabbed, one does the record keeping and so forth and then people receive their results by text. It is a massive logistical undertaking to antigen test a large number of people.

I suspected as much. It is not as simple as just carrying out an antigen test on one person. I have heard the references that it is easy on one person, but when the numbers start to increase it becomes more difficult. That might create a situation where there might be a slippage in standards or a slippage in how that is managed. One can understand how that might happen. In terms of the overall numbers, I heard the witness say that antigen testing does and can have a role, especially in controlled situations such as the universities. How could we best use it to complement PCR testing in terms of aviation and trying to assist people who have lost their jobs or cannot work in aviation at present? Is there a role for it there?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will ask Professor Nolan to comment on the example and address that question.

Professor Philip Nolan

I will answer the question the other way around. A lot of the things people are thinking about are serial testings in particular settings in order to pick up an outbreak early and then move in and manage that outbreak. It is an utterly different type of circumstance from the one-off test we are discussing. To give an example, if one gathers 60,000 people together, there is another problem with the one-off testing. If one gathers 60,000 people in Croke Park at a higher prevalence than we have - we expect that by September prevalence will be lower - so let us say 150 per 100,000, with the test sensitivity at 70%, which is generous to antigen testing, as opposed to 99.8%, one can expect about 90 infections in that crowd. Perhaps the test will pick up 40 of them, miss about 20 and would also generate about 120 false positives. If the specificity is worse, there would be more of those. The first thing to mention is that of those 90 people, perhaps 40 or 50 of them would be symptomatic. They should not even be considering going to see a match. They should not be going for antigen testing. They should be calling their GP and seeking a PCR test. We are now down to 45 asymptomatic people. In that 60,000 people that we are considering to rapid antigen test, there are 45 with asymptomatic infection. We might detect one in two of those with a rapid antigen test. We will find 22 or 23 cases and let 22 or 23 potentially infectious people into the event. They may not be as infectious as the symptomatic people, but they are potentially infectious people. There will also be 120 other people. We get five false positives for every case we are detecting. It is not a big thing-----

I am sorry, but I am just out of time. To follow up on that, it is not just about the testing, but also the follow-up afterwards when the results of the tests become apparent. There is the contact tracing that must take place after that as well. The before, during and after have to be considered.

Professor Philip Nolan

One must think about the resource and opportunity cost of doing these things when, perhaps, we should be focusing on other ways of managing this pandemic.

I thank Deputy Matthews for his management of the time. Deputy Duncan Smith has seven minutes.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance today. We certainly have a full court press and it has been an interesting meeting so far. It has been a little combative and it did not need to be, but we are where we are. The Department of Health is supporting the development of a collaborative project by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in respect of a pilot programme on antigen testing. Has a similar or any request with regard to antigen testing been made by the Minister for Transport to the Department of Health?

Dr. Tony Holohan

No.

Has any request been made by the Minister of State in the Department of Transport for such a scheme?

Dr. Tony Holohan

Not that I am aware of.

No request has been made by the Minister for Transport, that the witnesses are aware of, to the Department of Health for a scheme. That is on the Minister and we will take it up with him.

With regard to Professor Mark Ferguson's report, as chief scientific adviser to the Government what level of engagement does he have with the Chief Medical Officer or NPHET? Is there a regular ongoing engagement, is it sporadic or is there no engagement at all?

Dr. Tony Holohan

He is a member of NPHET.

Was his report discussed officially by the committee?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will ask Dr. Glynn to respond to that. For personal reasons I was not around during the time that report was compiled and finalised. It was compiled by a group put together by the Minister at the time. The group reported directly to the Minister. I am sure the Deputy is aware of that.

Dr. Tony Holohan

As to whether there was discussion at NPHET, I was not in the chair for personal reasons at that time.

I understand, and I am happy to hear from Dr. Glynn.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

As an independent report, it was submitted to the Minister and published by the Minister. Obviously, the issue of antigen testing had arisen from time to time but, again, it comes back to the earlier issue in this regard, that at various times we would have discussed symptomatic versus asymptomatic and serial testing in meat processing facilities versus one-off testing. To discuss all aspects of it would be a different conversation but, of course, various elements of antigen testing came up at various times to NPHET.

The Minister did not refer it for specific discussion by NPHET even though the report was more than 50 pages on an issue that was gaining a great deal of coverage and it was compiled by the chief scientific adviser to the Government who also sits on NPHET. NPHET was not advised by the Minister officially to discuss it.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

No. In much the same way the Minister would not typically advise NPHET to discuss a range of different issues. Obviously, the report was assessed within the Department and advice was provided to the Minister on the report.

Professor Mary Horgan, president of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland, was on "Morning Ireland" this morning. She was quite strong in support of the use of antigen testing as an additional tool, not a substitute or replacement for any other testing methods such as PCR testing. We are again quoting another eminent professor in a senior position. As a committee, we need to be respected for our work in responding to the comments and contributions from people in these positions throughout the country. What is the response to Professor Mary Horgan's widely covered remarks this morning on "Morning Ireland"?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I did not hear it. Professor Horgan is also a member of NPHET. Dr. Glynn might have heard the interview.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

The key takeaway for me from that interview were her final remarks, which were that we need to follow the science. Ultimately, that is what we are doing. We are following the data and the evidence.

We all want things to move faster than they are moving at the moment, we all want to get back to a level of normality where we can forget about Covid and about the pandemic. However, ultimately, as advisors, as people who look at the evidence as it is published, assess it and liaise with colleagues in the HSE like Professors Cormican and Keogan who look at the real-world utility of these tests, we must be guided by the evidence and the science. Throughout this pandemic we have tried to be guided by the science. As Professor Horgan noted this morning, ultimately that is what we are all aspiring to do.

Okay. However, it seems we have different levels of science because we have EU states recognising the utility of antigen tests. Upwards of 36 antigen tests have been recognised by the European Commission as being accepted for EU states. That is one bar of science that must be acceded to by those tests and which has been. What I am hearing in this committee meeting is we have another bar which is the real-world testing of those in particular fields or sectors. What is different about those two tests? How does an antigen test meet a bar to be accepted by the Commission but then does not meet a bar to be accepted by the Irish State for use in a particular sector? There was a comment earlier about carbonated beverages impacting on the results of antigen tests, saying they can be befouled by such. What piece of academic research is that based on because I had never heard that before?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I ask Professors Cormican or Keogan to come in on some of those questions if I may.

Professor Martin Cormican

On the first one, everybody accepts that antigen tests applied to people who are asymptomatic will detect some people. PCR will detect more of them. I will go back again to the filter issue. The filter one uses with an antigen test will let more through than the filter one uses with a PCR test. In any particular application people may choose to use one type of filter or the other but we have very clear evidence, from the work that has been done, the validation that has been done here, that if 100 people who are infected are tested with an antigen test, at most 60% to 65% will be detected and the other 35%, which would be detected by PCR, will not be detected. Thus one chooses the filter one wants to use. This is not a matter of opinion. Every study I have seen done in any country will show that antigen testing will miss about a third of asymptomatic people who are likely to be infectious at the time. People may have all sorts of opinions but I would pick up what Dr. Glynn says: what is the evidence? Sometimes the evidence is very uncomfortable and sometimes I wish the evidence was different as well. However, what we have to do is tell the committee what the evidence is. If anyone can find publications by peer-reviewed scientists that show what I have just told the committee is wrong then I will change my opinion but I have tried and I cannot find them.

I ask Professor Keogan to be brief.

Professor Mary Keogan

Perhaps I can just show the committee. I may need a bit of a hand with the camera. I am holding up a test strip. Can the committee see?

Professor Mary Keogan

There is a single line at the c-bar. Obviously I would not be handling it without gloves if it had any biological material on it. What I did to produce this this morning was put butter on it. This is why self-testing is not acceptable for any sort of test-to-enable approach. If one just puts on butter with no sample one gets a negative result. The control line just tells one that diffusion has occurred. It does not indicate there is any specimen in this test. This is unlike a PCR test where one would get an invalid result if there is no ribonucleic acid, RNA, present.

We are very tight on time. I ask Professor Keogan to get to the heart of the matter.

Professor Mary Keogan

Okay. It is widely publicised on the Internet that if this is done with diet coke one can get a false positive. This was done with tonic water because it does not stain down below and this looks like a positive. As one can produce a positive like this, it is recommended any sort of positivity based on self-testing should be confirmed. These tests do not have a proper control in them and are open to manipulation.

Professor Keogan is talking about self-administered rapid antigen tests, is that correct?

Professor Mary Keogan

Yes.

We are not talking about self-administered tests but about monitored ones.

The Chairman is right. Some reference has been made to peer-reviewed journals and now we are talking about the Internet. It has been a bad couple of days for Coca-Cola with Cristiano Ronaldo and now this. This has been quite a potent example and it is quite stunning to be honest. There is always a distrust of people here. If I was asymptomatic and used an antigen test I would want to know whether I had Covid or not. Most, if not all, people would. I am very concerned by what we have just seen there and I will leave it at that.

I thank the Deputy. We will move now to-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

The reality of the performance we have now established through the antigen testing validation study here is that, for people who were asymptomatic, a coin toss is effectively the level of performance of the test. That is the reality. That is evidence we have produced from validation in this country-----

Dr. Holohan, I have to pick you up on that-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

I have not heard anybody pointing towards published evidence-----

Dr. Holohan------

Dr. Tony Holohan

-----that, as Professor Cormican says, tells us that our advice in respect of this is incorrect. In other words, it is about its use in asymptomatic populations and how reliable the test will be.

With due respect-----

Professor Martin Cormican

If the six of us in this room were infected and one tested the six of us with the antigen test, one would miss-----

With due respect Professor Cormican, we are talking about the spread of the infection. At their most infectious, there is what is called a cycle threshold, Ct, score of less than 25 or less than 30. Is it not fair to say rapid antigen testing will detect the virus at that level over the full spread? Is that not correct to say?

Professor Martin Cormican

An antigen test with a Ct value of less than 30 in our studies will detect seven out of ten.

Professor Mary Keogan

Yes.

What about less than 25?

Professor Mary Keogan

At less than 25 it is 80%.

Yes and that is very high. That is at the rate of PCR tests. It is therefore important that-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

That is not correct, Chairman.

Professor Martin Cormican

That is for people who are highly likely to be infectious. The question then is if one of those people who were missed is sitting beside one on the aeroplane and he or she could have been detected by PCR which test would one like us to have used.

I would like to have an antigen test prior to boarding which might pick up something that was missed by PCR three days before. I just need to move to-----

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

Chairman, I wish to add one other point around this concept of infectiousness above a Ct of 25 or a Ct of 30. Again, unfortunately it is something where opinion and comment are being misinterpreted as evidence.

Dr. Cillian De Gascun

It has been demonstrated that virus is culturable, that live virus is retrievable at a Ct of up to 37. It will not be recoverable in 100% of individuals with a Ct of 37 but it is recoverable at that level. We need to be very careful about just assuming a Ct of greater than 25 or greater than 30 is not infectious or does not contain viable virus. We do not yet know the infectious dose of SARS coronavirus type 2. Anybody who says they do and can correlate it with a Ct value is unfortunately misleading the committee.

I thank Dr. De Gascun. I move to Deputy Cathal Crowe who has seven minutes. I have three members and I am going to try to get them in. Two are from the committee and then there will be less time for the non-member.

Deputy Crowe does not seem to be available. We move to Senator Buttimer.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I welcome our guests. I really hope we can have the witnesses back in a less combative, adversarial manner. I regret the tone of the meeting from a personal perspective. Beginning with Dr. Glynn, did he say in a reply that antigen testing was not discussed by NPHET?

Dr. Ronan Glynn

No, I said the opposite, that antigen testing would have been discussed, in its various guises, a number of times.

Yes, but was it discussed in the context of aviation?

Dr. Ronan Glynn

Not that I specifically recall but we would not discuss the specific use of antigen testing in a specific setting------

Why would it not have been discussed specifically for aviation, sport or cultural events?

Dr. Ronan Glynn

As we have said previously, the individual sectors need to bring their expertise to whether or not these tests should be piloted and can bring additional value over and above the basic public health measures that have kept so many so safe over the past 18 months.

Ultimately, if there is evidence to support using these tests in particular settings then that advice will be looked at and provided onwards, in the positive sense.

Yet in the context of face coverings or masks, NPHET revised its position. At the beginning, it said that face masks were unnecessary on public transport or in shops, but on 10 August it became mandatory to wear masks in those settings. NPHET changed its position. Why would antigen testing in the context of aviation or sporting or cultural events not have been reviewed?

Dr. Ronan Glynn

Would Senator Buttimer prefer if we never changed our position?

No. I am sorry. I did not say that at all. I asked a specific question. I was not in any way being belligerent or confrontational. I asked why NPHET did not recommend antigen testing in the context of aviation. NPHET changed its position on face coverings. I have no difficulty with people changing their positions. I am in a profession where we do that all the time.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

Ultimately, as we have said throughout this meeting, if we can be shown scientific evidence or real-world utility or value of these tests whether in aviation or any other setting, we would promote the use of a test or modality. I agree with Senator Buttimer about the combative nature of this issue. There is a really unfortunate narrative that has grown up around this that people are completely opposed to antigen testing and people who think it is the best thing since sliced bread. Neither of those positions is the truth. It is a question of using it in appropriate settings as one more intervention. There is no reason in the world we would not want antigen testing to be used where it brings an additional level of safety and reduces risk, whether that is in aviation, sport or anywhere else. Ultimately, we have a responsibility to make sure that we also give advice based on science and that we do not say that an event or activity that is otherwise unsafe at a given point in time, given the prevailing epidemiological situation, should go ahead just because there is antigen testing, if antigen testing or any other testing or other modality does not make up for the risk that is posed by that event or activity. We have got to weigh all of those things up at a given point in time and give the advice as it stands, but of course we will change our advice. We would love to see evidence that these tests have improved and that there is real-world evidence behind them so that they can bring the conditions and we can all move on.

Could I just draw Dr. Glynn's attention to thelancet.com peer review of 100,000 air passengers in the United States who used supervised rapid antigen testing? I know time will not allow us to comment on that but it is important that we talk about the pilot schemes in aviation. We rightly did stop the world and travel was stopped and therefore there was only limited travel.

Dr. Holohan knows me from my time as Chair of the health committee. I have never been combative or adversarial in the Chair and I have always sought to protect members and witnesses. If it is possible, I wish to ask a question about AstraZeneca not related to antigen testing.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Yes, of course.

I appreciate that we are all trying to keep everybody safe. Has NPHET given any consideration to giving Pfizer as a second dose to people who have had AstraZeneca for their first vaccination? In the context of a booster shot, much like the flu vaccination, does Dr. Holohan see us having a yearly one and, if so, could there be a recommendation that Pfizer would be used?

In the context of the earlier question to Dr. Glynn about pilot programmes in aviation, if this committee made a proposal that was passed on to Dr. Holohan as the Chief Medical Officer, what would be his view on that?

I thank all the witnesses for their work in the past year and a half. While we disagree on many things, we also agree on many things. I thank the witnesses for their work on behalf of the people.

Dr. Ronan Glynn

I will come in briefly as I was asked a question about thelancet.com study. This is precisely the issue that we are talking about. That is a simulation study. It is a modelling study. It is people sitting at a computer and estimating what might happen if we do this in this type of setting. It is not real-world evidence of real-world utility and that is what we need.

I thank Dr. Glynn. The reason I raised the issue was to have a debate. I am not in any way confrontational and I do not want the witnesses to think that I am.

I think Dr. Holohan will appreciate that robust discussion is always healthy. I ask him to reply to the question on AstraZeneca.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am going to come back on Senator Buttimer's question. Any experience I ever had when he was Chair of the Oireachtas health committee is that his recollection is exactly the same as mine. It was always an experience I enjoyed and relished. I hope that we gave good evidence and supported the work of the committee during that time. That is exactly as I remember it.

In broad terms, our ambition is to find ourselves in a situation where two things happen: one, we get the level of disease in this country down to a level that we think we can safely resume activity. So far, we have been making good progress as a country in relation to that through the work that people have been doing. If anything, we are seeing an improved situation epidemiologically. We are taking confidence from that, but perhaps not getting ahead of ourselves too much given that there is still potential for things to go wrong. That is not dissuading us at the moment from staying the course that we are on, which is really encouraging.

We are getting people vaccinated at a very high rate in terms of the acceptance of the vaccination and the numbers. The HSE is getting through a very impressive programme of vaccination that is giving people increasing protection. That is the strategy. It is working. We want to be in a situation whereby we can see the economy and society in all of its manifestations returning when it is appropriate and safe to do so without a dependence on any form of testing.

This is what the estimates of the green light that we spoke about is all about: that we will not find ourselves in a situation whereby something is unsafe from our point of view but is now rendered safe simply through the use of antigen tests. We have not seen any evidence that would give us assurance that we think something that was inherently unsafe can now be rendered safe because people are using antigen testing. The premise, not of what Senator Buttimer said, but a lot of what is being said in general terms by people, is that we would use it in these green light situations and that we would be able to resume a named activity, whatever it might be, if only we were using antigen testing. That is an implied use in a green light way for asymptomatic populations. There is no published evidence at all in that regard. In fact, very few studies have looked at this question in any setting and those that have not produced encouraging results.

We are very tight on time.

Dr. Tony Holohan

On the AstraZeneca question, the process is that NIAC gives that advice through me and ultimately through to the Minister. NIAC has looked at the question already and the evidence so far has not given it cause to conclude, but we can anticipate a conclusion. There have been a number of studies, one in Spain and one in the UK, that may well change the situation on the mixing of vaccine doses. The term used is heterologous vaccination. It has not as yet been recommended in this country. It is really important now to people in the 60 to 69 age group and any other people who are in other age groups that have received it. I have a daughter who is 20 years of age who had her first dose and is due a second dose of AstraZeneca. I am quite happy to recommend that she gets it. That is our position.

On the related question on boosters, some element of that is something that we will be looking at through NIAC over the course of the coming weeks. It is a very good question that Senator Buttimer has raised. We think there will be some role to play in that regard but we want to take a careful look at the evidence as we move through to the optimistic situation whereby we can look to August or September when the great majority of people who are currently the target of our vaccination programme will have been vaccinated.

I confirm that I am in the convention centre. I had to move while the committee was sitting. I welcome Dr. Holohan, Dr. Glynn and all of the team who are here today. I thank them for their role and efforts in the past 12 to 15 months or so.

I very much take the view that rapid antigen testing is a cheap, fast, uncomplicated and most important of all, safe way, of testing people before they travel. We have seen approximately 17 European countries embrace this. If one takes a PCR test three days before departure, in the three-day period between testing and boarding the flight one will come into contact with hundreds of door handles, flush hundreds of loos, turn on taps, hand driers and multiple items. There are multiple opportunities for an individual to pick up the Covid virus elsewhere. While the PCR test is considered the gold standard, it does not capture everything. It is rather akin to being breathalysed a few hours before one goes to the local pub: it does not capture all the information and it does not capture the most salient information in terms of antigen levels at the point of departure.

Testing in the field has been mentioned but why would we not consider a parallel regime, not a competing regime, of antigen testing to capture the most up to date data before someone boards a flight?

Professor Philip Nolan

It is a plausible scenario but it is simply not true. If I am due to take a flight in 72 hours' time, and the Deputy is absolutely right that I could pick up the virus in the next 72 hours, but if I am swabbed right now, go out that door and I am immediately exposed to the virus, and pick it up then it will take three to four days for that virus to replicate inside me before it is detectable by any test, and probably longer before it is detectable by a rapid antigen test. So the difficulty is that I will have taken my flight and arrived at my destination before I am in any way likely to be detectable. So this is why we have this caution around how frequently one tests and it depends on all kinds of things like prevalence. It has not been tested. There has not been a proper study done but I can say a rapid antigen definitively would not pick up an exposure that occurred after my swabbing. It may detect an exposure that occurred beforehand. It is quite unlikely, given the evidence that we have, that being swabbed for PCR up to 72 hours beforehand could be improved upon by adding an antigen test up to 48 hours before I board the flight.

Professor Martin Cormican

Everybody accepts that adding in an antigen test could not make things less safe, I think. The problem is that it would make things more difficult. The reason that people are promoting it is as an alternative. Of course, if one had the PCR and an antigen test it would not make things less safe. Nobody thinks so, I think.

We have a different view from the scientific field. I will quote the Assistant Professor of virology at UCD, Dr. Gerald Barry who said that it is an "absolute no-brainer" and "I cannot understand why we are not looking at this, explaining it to people, teaching them how to use it and rolling it out on a mass basis". I think there is an overwhelming school of scientific thought and, indeed, Professor Ferguson has completed a report for the Government and recommended implementation.

The witnesses have suggested that in-field evaluations need to be done. There have been a number of matches over the weekend where low attendance was allowed and NPHET is examining a number of situations. In terms of testing passengers on a flight, three or four weeks ago I suggested here that we would use the interim period between now and 19 July to test passengers on an inbound and outbound flight between parts of Ireland and the UK to allow for antigen testing to be used as a test case. In terms of advancing that, just like NPHET has advanced matches and concerts at the weekend, who needs to give a green light? Is there pushback at any level be it departmental, by NIAC, NPHET or the Government? Has NPHET sought a test? Has the matter been discussed? Has there been pushback on doing a test on a flight? If not, then will this happen?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I might bring in some others to reply to the specific comments referred to by the Deputy.

In terms to these things that the Deputy has said we have advised on, yes, we have advised on, as he said, the return of outdoor activities and matches. The reason that matches are happening all over the country now and 100 people are in a position to attend is because we provided advice that we believed, because of the epidemiological and vaccination status, we thought it was safe for us to cautiously but ambitiously move on to that level of easing of restrictions without the dependence on testing. So there is not a requirement on testing applying in any of those tests. People are free now to go to a match. We give public health advice.

I meant as in test events. They are test events to see how life will progress over the summer and autumn months. What is the delay in having a test case, testing a flight and using an antigen test on passengers flying over and back between Britain between now and 19 July?

Dr. Tony Holohan

With the prevalence of the disease, as it stands in this country at the moment, we have about 0.1%. We have looked at a number of different publications. The recently publication by the Infectious Disease Society of America was referred to, which talks about these tests not being reliable in a prevalence of less than 5%. That is what our data is telling us. We cannot rely on the test at this low level of prevalence so I am just not clear what one would be testing, and testing one flight in that situation, where the probability, on a flight of 150 people, of anybody being infected is very, very low.

A number of people have referred to a validation exercise. Where and when and how will it take place, and who needs to sanction same? Between now and 19 July we want to see this tested and proven in the scientific field, and implemented, when people get back on planes again.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Just so the Deputy is clear on our advice, the decision has been made in relation to 19 July. We think it will be appropriate and safe for individuals who are vaccinated, and who take all of the other precautions that we recommended here and in whatever country they are travelling to, to travel to other countries and areas of low incidence, where the use of the digital green cert and so on supports that travel. We think that will be safe without the need for PCR testing. So in that situation, to support that, there is no need for any validation. Without the need for any form of testing, I should say, there is no need for validation because we think it is safe and appropriate because the disease incidence is low.

Reference has been made to the outcome of a validation exercise. When will that validation exercise relating to antigen testing and international aviation happen?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We are not pointing to any specific validation exercise that we are aware of taking place. I am pointing to the fact that to support the use of antigen testing in other settings, other than those where we know they have been established to be effective and reliable, we would need further validation studies to be carried out. That is the position as advocated by all national bodies.

We have heard the scepticism and a number of the arguments in that regard have been outlined. As many as 17 EU countries have embraced antigen testing on a scientific basis. These days there is a huge sharing of information over and back whether it be the European Medical Agency and engaging with NPHET's counterparts in other countries. We need to embrace the idea that there is scientific advice and validation in other countries. There are countries that are willing to fully embrace antigen testing. The fact remains that on 19 July when people go to book flights they might get their €40 return bargain basement air ticket with Ryanair but it will cost them hundreds to get tested, which will be a barrier to international travel. Antigen testing is safe and cheap.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We recommend the resumption of airline travel.

We are talking about fizzy water and Coca Cola and how this can result in fake results. We are talking about scientifically qualified people doing this. This is not TikTok, Facebook or anything like that. We want this done scientifically and in laboratories just as PCR testing is done. That is the realm in which we want antigen testing and we want it to co-exist with PCR to make flights safe and affordable.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We want to see the resumption not being dependent on any of that form of testing. We do not think antigen testing is viable enough for the reasons that we have already set out. If people are vaccinated and follow the other public health measures then we think it will be safe for airline travel to resume without the reliance on that testing. So the question again is for what purpose would that validation exercise be done at this point in time.

On 19 July what will happen with the common travel area in terms of the Delta variant? Will the same apply to fully vaccinated people when they fly over and back to the UK from 19 July? I mean that they will not be required to either get a test or isolate but if people are not vaccinated they will still require a PCR test. Dr. Holohan has signalled that he agrees with what has been proposed by the Government.

In terms of the UK, the common travel area is hugely important to us. At the moment one could have to quarantine up to 14 days with tests at five days and ten days. What will happen on 19 July for travel between here and the UK, which is vital to us in terms of connectivity?

Dr. Tony Holohan

The date, 19 July, is five weeks away and in terms of the situation that we find ourselves in at the moment, the position epidemiologically in the UK is probably the most worrying across Europe. The disease is increasing in incidence. Dr. Glynn gave an outline earlier on. It has doubled in less than a week in many parts of the country. Infection is rising, in terms of its incidence, quickly. Over 90% of the spread of that infection is now attributed to this new Delta variant, which makes it relatively unique in comparison with other countries so we are genuinely concerned about that. It would be impossible to predict where we will find ourselves in five weeks time in respect of where the UK will be. I think that the UK itself is concerned. It is pausing some of its own measures for that particular reason and I am sure that members are aware of that.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We keep monitoring.

At this point, we believe the measures we have recommended and the decisions the Government has made on travel within these islands are proportionate to what is now an increasing concern we have about the transmission of the Delta variant. As and when we see the situation disimproving or, hopefully, improving over the course of the weeks between now and 19 July, we will give advice accordingly.

We have based everything we have spoken about here over recent weeks on science. We are not trying to short-change passengers or put them at any risk. We have taken the best expert advice. It is important that we consider a field evaluation, as the delegates are saying, but do so between now and 19 July. There is no point in delaying. The Covid situation is improving week on week. Vaccination is going really well but we do not know what circumstances will be like in the autumn. For people to travel internationally, we need a regime that is cheap and safe.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Could I raise something? At this end, we have been together in a room for in excess of two hours. We are obviously willing to support the committee in all its work but-----

We will be concluding in about six minutes. Is that acceptable?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I thank the Chairman. I apologise.

I thank the witnesses for their indulgence.

I thank the Chief Medical Officer and his team for everything they have been doing in the past 15 months. It is very much appreciated by all the Irish people. This is the transport committee and it obviously has a role to play in trying to get Irish aviation, in particular, back up and running, bearing in mind the impact on sectors such as tourism and hospitality in general. I am aware that all these areas are areas in which Dr. Holohan sees a risk. Last Christmas, I am sure there was a reason NPHET wanted nobody going anywhere, nobody doing anything and everybody staying at home but, thankfully, through the efforts of the Irish people and NPHET's direction, we are now in a much happier and better place. I hope Dr. Holohan can clarify, for the avoidance of any doubt, the position for anybody who is fully vaccinated after 19 July. Could the witnesses clarify exactly what "fully vaccinated" means? Are they talking about two weeks after having received the second dose? Does "fully vaccinated" mean an individual can travel without the need for a test regardless of whether the journey is inbound or outbound? While other countries may have their own rules, is Dr. Holohan saying people who are fully vaccinated will not need any PCR or antigen test for entering and exiting Ireland?

Dr. Tony Holohan

That is what I am saying.

I have no problem with an antigen test pilot. I can sense from NPHET that it really has to rely on evidence that antigen testing is reliable. If it wants to accept antigen testing as valid, it will want a study but, if I am correct, Dr. Holohan is saying that if the time were taken to do a study, it would almost be 19 July anyway.

Dr. Tony Holohan

And then some. The Senator is correct.

There are the guts of 140,000 people in Irish aviation, many of whom are watching this meeting today. Their concern was that antigen tests were being written off. Now Dr. Holohan is saying there will not be a need for antigen tests from 19 July onwards and that any study that could be relied upon would take longer than the period up to that date.

I became a member of this committee only recently. The committee has had meetings on antigen testing in the past few months. There was one last week with Dr. Michael Mina, whom I believe is arranging a seminar or webinar next week to which the witnesses have been invited. Would Dr. Holohan be willing to meet Dr. Mina's team? It has asked me to ask whether the witnesses are in a position to meet it and even explain to it that what they are saying is that PCR and antigen tests will not be required exiting and entering Ireland from 19 July.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Based on what he said, the Senator has understood what we are saying very clearly. I am happy to explain it to anybody. I have not seen an invitation and I am not doubting that an invitation exists. I get many invitations to many different things.

I do not doubt it.

Dr. Tony Holohan

It is a full-time job keeping the Minister, the Cabinet committee, the various Oireachtas committees and the public informed of what we need to inform them about. I would be parsimonious about attending events involving people outside the country.

My understanding is that there were 350 pilots outside the Department of Health this morning. They have had their incomes and lives decimated in the past 15 months along with many others in other sectors. They would love to be able to meet, if only for half an hour or 45 minutes, if possible. I hope it might be possible for Dr. Holohan to meet them, obviously in the same way he is meeting us in that he would not have to travel to meet them. Could Dr. Holohan look as favourably as possible on that request? It would be very much appreciated by the entire aviation industry, many of whom I am sure are watching today.

Much of what I wanted to ask or might have asked has been asked or covered but I have another question on PCR and antigen testing. Will what Dr. Houlihan outlined apply to every country or will there be countries whose passengers will still be subject to mandatory hotel quarantining? Will there still be passengers from areas of risk around the world whom we will be restricting? Is Dr. Holohan saying people in Ireland will be able to book flights to anywhere they want to go on the website of Ryanair, Aer Lingus or any other airline without needing a test to leave Ireland or to come back? Is the arrangement only for the EU? What are the implications of travel to different countries?

When answering that, Dr. Holohan might clarify whether it is only fully vaccinated people who will not require a test? Will people who are unvaccinated or who are only half vaccinated still require a PCR test?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I should have given a slightly longer answer to the Senator's question because, in fairness, he asked what was meant by "fully vaccinated"? The duration is slightly different for different vaccines, as members know. For Moderna, full vaccination is two weeks after the second dose, which means six weeks from the first dose. For Pfizer, it is one week after the second dose, which means five weeks after the first dose. For AstraZeneca, it is two weeks after the second dose, for the purpose of travel, at least. We have a lower level in respect of some of the activities within the country but we are just talking about travel now. For the Janssen vaccine, full vaccination is two weeks after the single dose. There is a slightly different period for each vaccine. I should have pointed out the position on where there is PCR evidence of infection within the past nine months — in other words, evidence of recovery. For many countries, that will involve a sizeable percentage of the population. Up to 10% of the population of this country could have PCR-demonstrated evidence of infection. All of those criteria are the qualifying criteria. Unvaccinated people will still have to go through the testing arrangements. We would need to retain an ability to examine what is happening and the possibility of an increase in the rate of infection that requires us to take action. Unfortunately in this regard, our nearest neighbour has seen a surge in infection caused by a genuine variant of concern. The measures put in place at EU level make provision for some of the arrangements and "emergency breaks", as they are called, to be applied if such concerns arise.

I thank the witnesses. I appreciate Dr. Holohan's clarification of what “fully vaccinated” means for different vaccines. From 19 July, will the fully vaccinated be able to book flights anywhere without being required to have a test by the Irish authorities, bearing in mind that they could be required to have tests to varying degrees in other countries?

Dr. Tony Holohan

There is complexity to it. The arrangements the Senator suggests will apply for travel between EU member states. The EU, as an entity, is attempting to put in place a common arrangement to apply to travel from third countries into the EU.

What about places like America, north Africa, Australia, the United Arab Emirates and various other parts of the world? What will be the story for those places after 19 July?

Dr. Tony Holohan

The EU is attempting to put in place a recognition arrangement for all those other countries.

So Europe as a whole will be looking at the period from 19 July from an Irish perspective?

Senator Horkan will have to conclude because time is limited.

I am just trying to tease it out. I thank the Chairman. I am trying not to delay the meeting. Could I have clarity on whether Dr. Holohan is saying that, after 19 July, the EU will have rules on where vaccinated travellers from Ireland can go without a PCR or antigen test?

Dr. Tony Holohan

Yes.

I thank everybody.

Two non-members wish to contribute. We are very tight on time so they will have no more than two minutes each. I call Deputy McNamara.

I want to come back to the report compiled by Professor Ferguson, the chief scientific advisor to the Government. I have looked at the minutes of NPHET and the report was not on the agenda for discussion or minuted as having been discussed, notwithstanding the fact that Professor Ferguson is the chief scientific advisor to the Government and chaired a panel of experts. Is it correct to say that it was not discussed by NPHET? I am seeking a brief response because I have a couple of other questions.

I am limiting the Deputy to two minutes because I am conscious of safety for-----

I ask Dr. Holohan, as chair of NPHET, to confirm whether it was discussed.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We dealt with this question earlier. I indicated that for personal reasons I was not in the chair at that time. The Minister set up the process and requested that it report directly back to him, which is-----

So it was not discussed. I thank Dr. Holohan.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Dr. Glynn was in the chair at that time. I did say all this earlier.

It was not discussed. Okay. The witnesses collectively stated that there is a paucity of reports pointing to the efficacy of antigen testing in the real world. The Directorate-General for Health and Food Safety has put forward a list of agreed antigen tests. That has been approved by the health security committee of the European Union.

I ask the Deputy to put his final question.

That committee is comprised of ministries of health from across the European Union. Is Dr. Holohan saying they are wrong in the stance they have taken and he is right? That is quite a statement to make, given the composition of the health security committee of the EU.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I did not make that statement. The Deputy is suggesting that is the case but I did not make that statement-----

Does Dr. Holohan recognise the antigen tests that are included in the annexes to the agreed list of antigen tests published on 19 May?

Dr. Tony Holohan

They are published there for a variety of purposes. I am sure the Deputy is aware of that.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Professor Keogan will address that point.

Very briefly, Professor Keogan.

I ask Professor Keogan to be brief. Will those antigen tests be recognised for entry into Ireland? Professor Keogan said earlier that the validation could not be carried out while the sector is shut down, yet the sector cannot open up without antigen testing because of the cost involved in PCR testing. That is an extraordinary exercise in circular reasoning.

Some of the points raised by the Deputy have been dealt with already. He has a particular view - he wants it to be validated.

No, I have a question to ask. Will NPHET recognise the list of antigen tests in the common agreed list provided by the Directorate-General for Health and Food Safety and approved by the health security committee on 19 May? That is not a loaded question. First, will NPHET recognise it? Second, will it recognise it for the purpose of travel into the State?

Very briefly, Dr. Holohan.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Professor Keogan attempted to answer the question. The premise on which the Deputy posed the question is that testing would continue to exist as a prerequisite to travel. Our ambition is to see the return of travel without dependence on testing because we have rendered it safe in relative terms as incidence is low and vaccination uptake is high. That is where we want to be. Professor Keogan-----

What happens when we do not get there?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We are going to get there.

Professor Mary Keogan

The list of antigen tests is under discussion. It has become clear that various countries have different criteria for approving antigen tests-----

I am talking about the list agreed by the Directorate-General for Health and Food Safety of the European Commission, not various countries.

Professor Mary Keogan

With respect, could I please answer and then-----

Please answer the question I asked, not a different question.

I ask the Deputy to allow the witness to answer. We need to conclude the meeting. I am conscious of health conditions where Dr. Holohan and his colleagues are located.

Professor Mary Keogan

There is a technical working group meeting more than weekly to review the antigen test and update the list. As more evidence becomes available, more tests may be added. Some may be removed from the list. This is a living document and it will move with the science. As regards whether antigen testing will be accepted for entry into Ireland, that is a Government decision, but many member states have not declared that they will accept antigen testing. It is not for me to say whether the antigen tests on the Directorate-General for Health and Food Safety list will be accepted.

I refer to the question on validation. Reference was made to costs. It is really important to be aware that although the reagents to do an antigen test are cheap, the technical scientific time is expensive. The cost of PCR tests is actually decreasing to much closer to the cost of getting a professional to do an antigen test.

I thank Professor Keogan. We move now to Deputy Daly, who is absolutely limited to two minutes.

That is no problem because the questions I was going to ask on antigen testing have already been answered. When will we have clarity on distancing requirements for school transport for the coming year? School buses have been cancelled in Moyvane in north Kerry and pupils are literally being left on the side of the road.

Dr. Holohan referred to a matter relating to football matches. As all present are aware, trial events have been taking place but football matches that we lost out on are taking place all over Europe. In advance of summer championship matches, will we be in a position to accelerate the percentage of people who are allowed to attend matches during the summer?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We have already accelerated that. Our original plan, going back to the advice we provided to the Government in April, was that we did not foresee any outdoor gatherings taking place during June. As a result of how things went for us, we decided to bring that forward and now up to 100 people can attend not just a match, but any outdoor gathering during the month of June. We will increase that further in July on the assumption that things stay as they are and we will continue to grow from there without a dependence on antigen testing or anything else because we think the disease incidence is low enough to enable us to do that and increasingly we are getting more people vaccinated. We will continue to tell people that if they are not vaccinated, maybe they should stay away from matches, but if they are vaccinated, they can regard it as something safe that they can do. I was at a match last Saturday evening in those circumstances. It is something that is safe for us to resume.

I ask the Deputy to remind me of his first question.

The first question related to school transport.

To finish the point on attendance at matches, does Dr. Holohan think the allowable attendance will increase much beyond 10%? Does he have any idea on the percentages in terms of the capacity of grounds?

My first question related to the distancing requirement on school transport.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I do not suggest that the Deputy's question is hypothetical. It is not. As we move through the summer, so long as we stay on track epidemiologically and things do not go wrong in terms of the Delta variant or some surge in infection that we do not want to see happening, we will continue to increase during July and August. If we get to the end of August and we have not seen a challenge, we think that at that stage we will have sufficiently high levels of vaccination - it remains to be seen whether we get the levels of vaccination we hope to get by then - to be able to resume much closer to normal activity. The sector itself will then put in place arrangements in that regard.

Is Dr. Holohan satisfied there have not been any spikes as a result of all the matches that are taking place around Europe? Is NPHET keeping an eye on that?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We will keep an eye on that. Most of Europe is continuing to move towards an encouraging situation. Incidence is falling in many European countries. The UK is the main exception to that, although not the only one, due to the variant over there. That is why we are particularly concerned about that and are watching it closely.

The Deputy asked about social distancing. We will be looking at that as part of a general consideration of the evidence as the summer progresses. If we think the circumstances are right in terms of transmission and vaccination for us to ease any of these measures, including social distancing, that will be considered. We understand the impact it has on school transport, as the Deputy mentioned, or the impact it might have on the resumption of third level education-----

My last question is------

Sorry, Deputy, we have to move on.

Have there been spikes as a result of the matches that have been taking place?

Dr. Tony Holohan

The matches across Europe took place fairly recently, in the past week or two. It is a bit too early to conclude that there have not been problems. I assure the Deputy that we will keep an eye on all of that.

There have not been problems thus far.

When does Dr. Holohan expect that we will have herd immunity in Ireland? When will we get to that 70%?

Dr. Tony Holohan

The HSE is making good progress in getting the vaccination out and the public is making great use of that in its take-up of the vaccination. We hope that will continue as we move down through the age groups and the further we can get the safer we will be. That is the message we want to give on vaccination. If one is called to register, one should register and if one is called for a vaccination one should turn up and get vaccinated. We have safe and effective vaccines and we are encouraging people to come forward for them. We will not put a ceiling on the progress that can be made. There are questions to address on the possible use of these vaccines on the under-16s and we will look at all of those questions in the context of-----

After a long and hopefully productive meeting, Dr. Holohan and his colleagues will appreciate the huge frustration in the aviation sector. As a committee, we are duty-bound to raise the issues. What has come out of today's meeting is that the committee will follow up on requesting that a pilot scheme be set up to see the role that antigen testing could play in aviation. I understand that the objective is that everyone is fully vaccinated and that there is no requirement for testing. However, there still will be people who are unvaccinated. There is a body of work to be done on that and we will follow up on that with the Departments of Transport and of Health. We wish to acknowledge the phenomenal work NPHET has done. It is fair to say Dr. Holohan has been the guardian of public health in a good way with Covid but hopefully, we are now coming out of the pandemic. Aviation is a critical sector for us in Ireland with 140,000 jobs supported by it. We want to see how rapid antigen testing can assist in that process. It will in no way replace PCR testing, which is the gold standard, but will be complementary to it. I thank Dr. Holohan and his colleagues for making themselves available today.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We share that aspiration personally, as well as professionally. We want to see a safe resumption of airline travel as early as possible that is unfettered by testing or any other requirements. That is where we want to be and I am sure I speak for the entirety of NPHET when I say that. I can certainly speak for the people in the committee room today. That is where we want to be. We have no predisposition against any test or technology that will help us in getting there and that is where we want to be-----

But validated.

Dr. Tony Holohan

The fact that we are not in the same physical location but are dependent on an IT system has us slightly out of sync with each other. I know it has not been ideal from the committee's point of view in terms of how we would normally be present so we apologise for that. Hopefully we have been able to make ourselves understood.

Hopefully, we will have Dr. Holohan and his colleagues back in person when the vaccination programme rolls out that bit further and we can have a further exchange. We thank Dr. Holohan for taking the time to come to our committee, which he has done previously. There have been elements of the discussion that have been robust but people's views are genuinely held. We thank Dr. Holohan for the phenomenal work he has done and we wish him well into the future.

I thank Dr. Holohan, Dr. Glynn, Professor Nolan, Dr. de Gascun, Professor Keogan and Professor Cormican for attending today's engagement with the committee. We look forward to further engagement.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.14 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 22 June 2021.
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