Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Thursday, 17 Feb 2022

All-Island Strategic Rail Review: Iarnród Éireann

Chairman

We are commencing our discussion on the all-island strategic rail review. The purpose of the meeting today is to engage with representatives from Iarnród Éireann to discuss the all-island strategic rail review and to inform the committee report on the matter. On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Jim Meade, chief executive, Iarnród Éireann; Mr. Peter Muldoon, director of capital investment, Iarnród Éireann; and Mr. Barry Kenny, corporate communications manager, Iarnród Éireann to the meeting.

I will read a brief note on privilege. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. For witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House complex, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present within the Leinster House complex. Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts of Leinster House will be asked reluctantly to leave the meeting. In this regard, I would ask any member partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting, that member confirms he or she is on the grounds of Leinster House campus.

Members and all those in attendance in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility in protecting themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Masks should be worn at all times during the meeting, except when speaking.

I invite Mr. Meade to make his opening statement.

Mr. Jim Meade

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the committee today to discuss the all-island rail review. As members of the committee will know, in April 2021, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, Nichola Mallon MLA, announced the launch of an all-island strategic rail review. The scope of that review overall was that the all-island strategic rail review will consider how the rail network on the island of Ireland can improve sustainable connectivity between major cities, enhance regional accessibility; support balanced regional development, consider the feasibility of higher speeds on the network and whether there is a potential to increase use of the network for freight.

Before I address these matters from Iarnród Éireann’s perspective, I will briefly outline the process and governance associated with the review, as established by the Department of Transport and Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland. Arup Consultants were appointed by the Departments as consultants for the review and work on the review formally commenced in late August-early September 2021. The review’s scope included: setting the context, the opportunities and the constraints, which include the public consultation process; identification of service level scenarios; definition of short-listed service level scenarios and final appraisal; and a final report, which it is expected will be completed by quarter 4 of the current year.

In terms of governance, two oversight groups have been established for the review, which both incorporate representatives from the Departments, Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the National Transport Authority, NTA, Translink and EIB. The project management group meeting, referred to as the PMG, is the first line of review for outputs from the review. Iarnród Éireann’s participation in this group is led by my colleague, Peter Muldoon, director of capital investments, who is with me today. The high-level steering group forms the main oversight of the review. It includes the bodies referenced above as well as the Commission for Railway Regulation, and I sit on this steering group on behalf of Iarnród Éireann.

While the committee will appreciate that Iarnród Éireann is contributing to the groups above, the two Departments, North and South, are ultimately responsible for the review and for the policy decisions which arise. That said, I would like to give the committee Iarnród Éireann’s perspective on some of the issues being considered within its scope as well as recent developments which support some of the ambitions within the scope. I will take three elements of the scope together, namely, improving sustainable connectivity between the major cities, enhancing regional accessibility and supporting balanced regional development, as there is some overlap. For sustainable connectivity between the major cities and enhancing regional accessibility, we can deliver this most effectively through higher frequency, improved journey times and reducing the carbon emissions of our operations. Throughout the decade 2000 to 2010, Iarnród Éireann was in a position to demonstrate clearly the benefits of higher frequency across our network. Enhancing rail services on all our InterCity routes, including, for example, hourly to Cork-Limerick and two-hourly to Kerry, eight times daily to Sligo and others, dramatically increased demand, and journey time improvements also supported the process.

Our ambition under Iarnród Éireann’s Strategy 2027 is to again enhance frequency and line speeds. To that end, current projects which will help achieve this ambition include: the DART+ programme, by building the capacity of our infrastructure, through measures such as completing the four-tracking of the line between ParkWest and Heuston Station, and other signalling and city centre capacity issues; the DART+ fleet, by freeing up InterCity railcars currently in use on commuter services to increase frequency and capacity on InterCity services; support under the PEACE PLUS programme for a new Enterprise fleet to allow hourly services between Dublin and Belfast; the Cork line renewal programme by renewing track and the track bed to facilitate improved speeds for journeys to Cork, Kerry and Limerick; and regional city investment, on which I will expand shortly. In addition, a programme to convert our InterCity railcar fleet, currently diesel operated, to hybrid operation is progressing well and will reduce emissions further by more than 35% on that fleet. In the longer term, continuing electrification beyond the greater Dublin area, further double-tracking and the addition of passing loops and other infrastructure investment will help achieve these ambitions.

As well as inter-urban travel, enhancing rail services in and around our major cities is also critical to supporting balanced regional development. It is heartening to see these programmes accelerate, with support at Exchequer and EU level, including: under the European Recovery and Resilience Programme, €185 million has been allocated to Cork commuter rail, which will include resignalling, a new through platform at Kent Station and double-tracking Glounthaune to Midleton; the full Cork metropolitan area transport strategy, CMATS, plans to expand all three commuter rail lines into Cork will follow, including further capacity, new stations and a move to electrification; almost €50 million of urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, funding for two projects in Galway: the redevelopment of Ceannt Station as part of the development of a major transport hub in the city centre and the provision of a second platform and passing loop at Oranmore to increase frequency on this increasingly popular route; the review of the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy, LSMATS, in the context of maximising the usage of both existing and disused railway lines around Limerick city; and delivering the relocated Plunkett Station in Waterford, providing for public transport integration and future frequency improvements as part of the Waterford North Quays development.

In terms of considering the feasibility of higher speeds on the network, as I mentioned, further improving journey time is a major part of our strategy to increase demand. Higher speeds – at a minimum reducing journey times between Dublin and all our major cities to under two hours – are a priority for Iarnród Éireann. In railway terms, there is a differentiation between “high speed” and “higher speed,” with the former typified by services such as the TGV in France or the Shinkansen in Japan. These services operate generally in excess of 250 km/h, operate on exclusively developed lines, do not serve smaller, intermediate stations and link large, densely populated urban areas. The business cases involved differ markedly from higher speed, which involves upgrading infrastructure to enhance line speeds and with electrification improving acceleration and deceleration also. Upgrading existing lines to 200 km/h operation is something which is feasible and achievable, and would strengthen our journey time competitiveness significantly.

Regarding the potential to increase use of the network for freight, we are ambitious for our rail freight services to become a key part of Ireland’s freight sector and welcome the Departments' inclusion of rail freight within the review’s scope. In 2021, we published our Rail Freight 2040 strategy, which sets out a clear path to make this happen. Rail Freight 2040 aims to achieve: a fivefold increase in the number of rail freight services to include more than 100 new weekly services across the rail network; a resulting reduction of 25,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions annually, with rail freight emissions per unit as little as 16% of heavy goods vehicle, HGV, emissions; and avoiding the requirement for 140,000 HGV journeys on our roads annually as well as helping the supply chain which is facing a shortage of HGV drivers.

The strategy outlines 25 initiatives and a cumulative investment of approximately €500 million out to 2040, with five strategic pillars, which are: enhancing connections with sea ports - enhancing existing operations to Waterford and Dublin Ports and re-establishing rail connections to Foynes Port in Limerick and Marino Point in Cork; developing a network of inland intermodal terminals - an expansive network of inland rail freight terminals is proposed, establishing rail freight in each of the regions; addressing rolling stock requirements by investment in new wagon fleets and bi-mode locomotives would allow for further decarbonisation of freight flows; network development - the connectivity of industrial sites directly to the rail network and development of additional passing loops and double-tracking on current single-track sections of the network; and policy initiatives - working with national, regional and European stakeholders, Iarnród Éireann will work to ensure a policy framework is in place to support a more favourable environment for rail freight in line with European norms.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Meade for his presentation. I wish to mention two matters. Ms Ciara Kilbane, one of the members of our team, who has been with us for some time, is moving on to another committee. I thank her for her great work and wish her well. Hopefully, she will be back to us again.

Mr. Meade came to the committee at short notice. He has to leave at 10.30 a.m. He has a legitimate reason for doing so and people will find out what that is post the event. Therefore, we will revert to having a two-hour slot for the meeting, which would leave us concluding at 11.30 p.m. Eleven members are seeking to contribute. While I normally do not request this, and I know it is difficult for members, I ask them to confine their contributions to seven minutes. The first speaker is Deputy Carey and he has seven minutes. Regrettably, I will have to be strict today.

Deputy Joe Carey

That is no problem. I welcome Mr. Meade and the officials from Iarnród Éireann to our committee to engage with us on the all-island strategic rail review. Irish Rail has many exciting plans in place for County Clare and for Limerick-Shannon. Will Mr. Meade give an overview of the situation? I know there are plans to develop a park and ride facility near Cratloe and to open up access to the Limerick Institute of Technology, LIT campus for students in Limerick, which will benefit students in Clare. Will he give us an update on the development of a rail spur to Shannon and any update he might have on a rail stop at Crusheen?

A lot of stuff is happening and there are many plans. Irish Rail made a comprehensive submission has been made to LSMATS. Has there been any informal feedback from that? Can timelines be given as to the delivery of new stations along the Ennis-Limerick line? It will come as no surprise that I raise the issue of flooding at Ballycar. A proposal is with the Department that will deliver a technical solution to the annual problem encountered on that line. I recently met with the Minister for Transport, at which meeting Deputy Leddin was also present, together with the Minister of State, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan. We discussed the whole area. The Minister committed to reconvening the stakeholder group that used to meet under the auspices of the Joint Committee on Rural and Community Development. Will Mr. Meade give an update in regard to that as well?

Chairman

This is an all-island review, but it is more like a Clare rail review.

Senator Timmy Dooley

It is to be expected.

Mr. Jim Meade

I have to acknowledge, being a Clare man, that I will have to try to answer as comprehensively as I can on that one.

Chairman

All politics is local.

Mr. Jim Meade

Absolutely. I will start with where we are with LSMATS. We made a comprehensive submission, as the Deputy rightly said. We put on the table the options that we believe should be considered to enhance public transport, as part of a public transport solution for the greater Limerick area. That submission has been made and we are eagerly awaiting the NTA publishing the consultation process. The timeline is the NTA's, not ours. Once that is published, we will not be found wanting in making our commentary on it. If we believe there are other additions that should be included, we will say so. My colleague, Mr. Muldoon, is with me today. His section looks after that. Together, we have worked closely on making comprehensive submissions on this and, indeed, on other local authority transport plans across the country. We are looking at having a network of new stations and park and ride. We fully understand that this cannot happen in the one year. It will happen over time, once we are building towards an endgame that utilises the infrastructure that is there. We believe it is the correct direction to take.

The Deputy mentioned Ballycar and I am aware of the meeting he had. The chair of the OPW gave an undertaking at that meeting to sit down and discuss the next steps with me, which we have done. We are now setting up a session with the OPW and Clare County Council to understand the next steps. The Deputy will be aware that there is an agreed solution for the location. The next steps are how it is funded and who takes the lead on it. We will agree that at the next meeting. I am happy to report that.

Crusheen has been on the cards for a while, but it is part of the county development plan. We will build it once somebody agrees it and funds it. We are happy to move forward with it. The biggest issue for us is the planning process we have to go through with some of these projects. We have to work to the current planning guidelines and that elongates the timeline. Those are the issues raised by the Deputy. I do not think I have missed anything.

Deputy Joe Carey

There is the Shannon rail spur.

Mr. Jim Meade

Sorry, the Deputy is correct. It is in the plan. We are currently awaiting for the funding to be put in place to do the study. A study is to be done as part of the next step. Once the LSMATS is published, we anticipate the funding will be put in place to allow that to go ahead.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Carey for setting a good example. I call Deputy Darren O'Rourke.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the witnesses for their opening statement. In terms of enhanced regional accessibility, this is an all-island plan and, when we look to the west and the north-west, it has been a function of political priorities and politics and investment over years. Does Irish Rail have ambition in its submission? Has it made commentary on rail services in that region? Has it worked with colleagues in Translink on that? We literally have one cross-Border rail line. Does Irish Rail envisage that changing and, if so, what might it look like? I have heard talk of the continuation of the Navan rail line to County Donegal, for example. I have heard other commentary, including from the Minister at one of our meetings last week, about the possibility of a spur at Newry with the line going across that way. Does Mr. Meade have an opinion on that?

What has been the experience so far on rail freight? Did Irish Rail reopen rail freight to Dublin Port and then close it? What was the experience in that regard? How will it be different in the future?

Does Irish Rail consider offshore wind energy to be a driver for a new dispensation in rail, be that in terms of economies or freight? I refer in particular to the western economic corridor and the western seaboard wrapping around to the Port of Waterford. Is that on the horizon? I have two further specific questions. What are the prospects of opening the Killucan station in County Westmeath, which my colleague, Deputy Clarke, raised with me and which was in the news in recent days? Does Mr. Meade have an update on the Navan rail project?

Mr. Jim Meade

It is important to note that we work very closely with Translink, and I understand that my opposite number, Mr. Chris Conway, made a submission to this committee on that. We are working closely on service provision. We are looking at replacing the entire Enterprise fleet with the assistance of some Special EU Programmes Body, SEUPB, funding under the peace process. That would move us to an hourly service all day, which we do not have on that line at present. We believe there is demand for an hourly service. There is close connectivity between the two companies and it works very well.

On the expansion and recommendation of routes, all options are being considered and that is what Arup is doing. It is looking at the various areas that could be connected, how those connections could work and what the recommendations would be. Arup has not come back on that piece to the group that Mr. Muldoon is on or to us on the steering group. That is a work in progress. It is part of work package 1, which they are doing. As we progress through the process, that will become more apparent. They will look at where those connections should and should not be, and short-list the viable ones. From that point of view, it is very much a work in progress. The Deputy mentioned Navan and connectivity beyond the existing network. That is being considered as part of it.

We believe there is a great opportunity for freight. As I said in my statement, we published our strategy last year. We move approximately 1% of the freight that moves on the island and we believe we should be in double digits and we need to grow to double digits. Any containerised traffic that moves by rail reduces the carbon footprint of that individual container by 75%. In some ways it is a no-brainer. We are looking to reconnect to the ports, which is part of our overall plan. It dovetails with the LSMATS for Shannon Foynes Port Company. That is a port that has a lot of capacity and it will have further capacity in the future once we reconnect.

Dublin Port was referred to. We had an issue last year in that the port was at capacity. It is struggling with capacity. It is the major port on the island of Ireland, so we have a working group working directly with Dublin Port to understand how we can do more through the port, while dealing with its capacity issue, which is ongoing. It does not make sense that the premier port in the country is not rail connected. That is an issue we still have to work through.

We see the potential in offshore wind on two fronts. We own and operate Rosslare Europort.

We see Rosslare Europort having serious potential to service the renewable energy, RE, industry. We have capacity to expand there. We are in the middle of the Irish Sea and Celtic Sea, so for access for those who will be building out the windmills there that is an opportunity for them. Once that type of industry is established, and the south east can become a hub for that industry, by extension there will be spin-off industries to service it. We see that having a benefit for rail and freight as a whole. It is probably too early to quantify what it would be, but it is certainly something we are looking at.

On Killucan, we have met with the representatives of Killucan previously. Indeed, the Minister met with me and some representatives of Killucan last year. It is up to Westmeath and its development plan as to whether it sees that as an area it wants to develop. If that is the decision in the county development plan, we would build a station. At present, it is not on our agenda, it is not funded and it is not in the current planning profile of projects.

Chairman

Thank you, Deputy O'Rourke for your time management. I call Deputy Cathal Crowe, who has seven minutes.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I welcome Mr. Muldoon, Mr. Meade and Mr. Kenny. I am delighted to see them here. They will be glad to hear that I will be taking the train home to Clare in a while, via Limerick. I have become an avid user of it.

I have a number of questions and I will try to get through them quickly. I ask our guests to respond quickly. First, when will catering on trains resume again?

Mr. Jim Meade

Mask wearing is mandatory. We have spoken to the catering companies about starting back again as soon as it becomes voluntary. We have had meetings with them. We see it happening on the Belfast to Cork corridor initially. They will have staff issues winding up again. We will be moving back into catering as soon as it is allowed on public transport.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Does Irish Rail have a position on mask wearing? Is it concerned about it?

Mr. Jim Meade

We follow the Government's guidelines all the time.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Irish Rail does not have concerns about easing restrictions on mask wearing.

Mr. Jim Meade

No. When it becomes voluntary it is a better position. We would be quite happy to work with that. Our staff will probably continue to wear them, but the nation seems to be moving away from them. That appears to be the right direction currently.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

When travelling on the train there is the 51444 text service so that if there is a problem on the train, one can alert somebody. I find the train very safe and comfortable to travel on. In fact, I love it. However, twice over the past 18 months I saw incidents happen on the train. I texted this facility on 16 November and on a separate occasion on 20 January. On both occasions I gave details about what was happening, but I got no text or feedback on it. I had to make a 999 telephone call in January as there was a guy talking about having a knife on the train. If that facility is available, it is important that it has a capacity for direct follow-up either on the train or from somebody getting on at the next station. Mr. Meade might speak about how that functions.

Mr. Jim Meade

That is a DART-only Dublin area service.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Okay.

Mr. Jim Meade

On the intercity trains there are customer service officers, CSOs. They normally interact and intervene in those situations. We have done a great deal of work with An Garda Síochána on security of staff and customers on trains. We have societal anti-social behaviour and sometimes it manifests itself on our services, indeed, on all public transport.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

A similar text facility would be great on the intercity trains, if that can be done.

Mr. Jim Meade

We are looking at it. Another thing we have done is have Garda hubs all along, so there is rapid response from gardaí at Thurles, Portlaoise-----

Deputy Cathal Crowe

It is not easy as a passenger to go down and talk to the attendant on the train when the passenger causing nuisance might be sitting only three or four seats away. A text facility would be fantastic, if that could be considered.

Mr. Jim Meade

We can certainly take that on board.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have a question about late night trains. The buses between all the cities run up until midnight and some of them operate beyond midnight, but the last trains one can get in Ireland are at approximately 9 p.m. Has Irish Rail got an interest in going beyond that and late into the night?

Mr. Jim Meade

We certainly have. As we expand the service and the new fleet starts to arrive in 18 months, we will be looking at expanding the services.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Mr. Meade mentioned that Irish Rail wants to get to 200 kph trains, which would be incredible. That would mean the line I will travel on today, the Limerick to Dublin line, possibly taking about an hour and the extension onwards to Ennis being even shorter again. Does he envisage that on all lines or is it just on the main intercity routes?

Mr. Jim Meade

On the main routes. We all suffer from the same issue - we would like to get on at the station of our preference and travel non-stop to the station of our preference. If we do that, it will be an hour but we serve many intermediate stations as well. The ambition is that we will achieve those types of speeds on the Belfast to Cork line, with an equivalent improvement on the branch lines. The principle we are working to is that we bring all our major cities to under two hours. We are currently on the two-hour mark, depending on which service one gets. If it is a stopping service, it is two hours and 15 minutes to two hours and 20 minutes to Limerick and one hour and 55 minutes to two hours on the direct trains through Limerick junction. We envisage that coming down towards one hour and 45 minutes or even one hour and 40 minutes over time on the Deputy's route. However, the ambition is to continue to improve services incrementally to get all the cities under two hours.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I believe the Chairman and I have cracked the Irish Rail algorithm, in that we know how to get the tickets booked on time and cheaply. I am on a €14 fare home today and it will get me home lightning quick. However, if I try to book for my wife and three children to go to Dublin for a day in the zoo, a rite of passage for every Irish family, it is €150 return. For the same money I could travel from Amsterdam to Munich on a night train, and there would even be beds for us on that train, or I could get a Ryanair flight from Shannon and fly to many airports around western Europe with my family. I know this is not all in his control but does it concern Mr. Meade that Irish Rail is out-pricing itself in terms of competitors and bus operators?

Mr. Jim Meade

I do not believe we are out-pricing ourselves. I will have to take the Deputy through the website again, but he can get a family ticket for €100, not more. There is 20% coming off that shortly as well thanks to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. It is getting very cheap very quickly. Compared to across Europe or across the UK, our fares are very cheap. They are governed by the NTA. I do not believe we are pricing people out of it. It is an ongoing issue and no matter what fare one has, people would always like it to be a little less.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have a question about Ennis railway station. It is really drab and has a rundown feel to it. Many people feel their cars might not always be safe parked there. Is an upgrade planned for it? What is Irish Rail intending to do there?

Mr. Jim Meade

The Deputy will be aware that we have put a great deal of work into Ennis station in the last 18 months to two years. We have installed new ramps, lifts and an overbridge in the station. We are finishing a complete revamp and replacement of both platforms to a modern standard. The station is on a programme of refurbishment with seven-year cycles. Off the top of my head, I am not sure where it is on that for repainting and maintenance. We have staff who work in the station, so I would not have said there is a drab feel to it. However, it is part of our ongoing maintenance schedule. From 2008 onwards, we probably went through most of a decade in which we did not have anywhere near enough funding for that type of maintenance and it was put on the back burner. I am happy that has been reversed, and we started about a year and a half ago or so with a programme for bringing everything back up to standard. The Deputy will see the standard improve.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Finally, there is the capacity to deliver the LSMATS, this beautiful network of stops planned at Cratloe and Shannon, the rail spur into Limerick and the rail spur out to Shannon Airport. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, says that a lot of that line exists, apart from the airport spur, and that it can be delivered quickly. There is a station in Cratloe and a network there already. If Irish Rail got the green light, what capacity does it have to deliver that and - a colleague referred to Crusheen station earlier - to build on that infrastructure in the mid-west? There is massive potential. The Minister suggested three years hence for the Thomond Park park-and-rail system. Is that realistic? As regards the remainder of the line through Cratlow, Shannon and to the airport, how soon could it be delivered, all things going well?

Mr. Jim Meade

The timeline the Minister has outlined is realistic. The Shannon spur is a definite issue because it is a greenfield site so there will be planning issues with that. If we can do anything to improve the planning process and the railway order process for that to reduce the timeline, the build out is quick. That is something we do quite regularly. We built Pelletstown station, a new station, on the Maynooth line in about 15 months, and across the canal as well during the Covid pandemic. The build out for us is routine because we do it all the time. The issue is getting the funding in place and getting through the planning process.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank Mr. Meade. We squeezed a lot in there.

Senator Gerry Horkan

This format of cutting the hour at the last minute has worked very well so far.

Chairman

I am beginning to wonder whether the two-hour slot is more efficient and effective.

Senator Gerry Horkan

It is focusing everybody's mind.

Chairman

Yes.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I will not delay. I am conscious that we are here not just to have a good conversation about everything Irish Rail is doing, and I will dig into that momentarily, but to discuss the all-island rail review. I read it last night again to brief myself. It references that it is not commuter-focused but is all about the intercity and the longer distances. While we think Donegal is a long way away, and, relatively speaking, in our terms it is, in terms of Australia, the Continent, Russia or other places, it is only a stone's throw away.

I welcome the all-island aspect of the review which is not Mr. Meade's remit, as such, but he is coming here to respond to it. I was taken by the all-island views in terms of the density and frequency of activity in some stations versus others.

It is not the responsibility of Mr. Meade, but I would love to see that in a 3D format to know the level of activity at stations. It is extremely high along the east coast, much of which is caused by commuter DART and so on. However, other stations have less than three to four services per day, such as the Waterford to Athenry and Ballybrophy lines. It would be very difficult for those lines to pay their way but they are a valuable service in their areas and it is great they have been kept and maintained.

If one looks at the east coast, the speed is not great on the Waterford and Wexford lines, in particular. I can get in my car in south Dublin and be in Wexford far faster than I ever would be on the train. That does not even allow for getting to the train station in the first place. What will Iarnród Éireann do to improve the service? Deputy Crowe touched on the safety aspect. The Taoiseach referenced it last night. Public transport capacity, generally, is only approximately 60% of what it was. Part of the reason for the fares being cut is to bring people back to using public transport.

It is not just about having a quality, safe and reliable service. In terms of the modal shift towards decarbonisation, I have been on trains in places such as Hungary and Slovakia where one can cycle to the station and hang up one's bike in the carriage one is in, rather than worrying about it being down the other end of the train and whether there is enough room or something happening to the bike when one is not with it.

There are places on the Continent where one can put one's car on the train. I would love to drive to Heuston, put my car on the train, get to Killarney and then drive around Killarney. I like having the car at the other end. Is there any scope for that kind of activity? Is our country too small? The price of fuel is going up, and pricing has been mentioned. At the moment I can get into my car and drive to Limerick for approximately the same price as going by public transport. It may not be the €14 fare about which Deputy Crowe spoke, but the pricing can be prohibitive. I can get to Cyprus for €7.99 with Ryanair. The air coach will not even get me to the airport for that price.

I know Iarnród Éireann is bound by certain guidelines and rules. However, is there capacity for Iarnród Éireann to offer very competitive off-peak pricing for Tuesday morning or the graveyard shift late on a Tuesday? Clearly, rail does better with density. It does better when the speeds of the train are faster than the car. This may be more difficult because we are such a small country, but people want to embrace public transport where it is reliable, safe and cheap.

I have thrown a lot at Mr. Meade and I have not even touched on the capacity of a DART spur to the airport. We could be waiting a while for the metro. Is there any way we could do that, as well? That is as much as I will throw in for now.

Mr. Jim Meade

I hope I can cover those points. We would love to take the Senator and his car to Killarney but we would rather see him on an e-scooter or a bike because we are trying to get people into active travel and-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

Kerry is quite a big county for an e-scooter. I am not against it, by the way.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Jim Meade

The Senator's point is well made. We look at it from the holistic view of active travel, such as the interconnectivity of getting to Killarney and maybe getting a bus around the Ring of Kerry, as opposed to taking one's car. That is where the National Transport Authority, NTA, has a big role to play. It talks to us on an ongoing basis about how the various modes interact. The NTA brought out the 90-minute fare this year in order that one can switch between modes of transport within the 90 minutes for the same fare. Those kinds of issues all contribute to making public transport more user friendly and attracting more people on to it.

Senator Gerry Horkan

What about the bikes?

Mr. Jim Meade

There is capacity on trains for bikes, but not enough. We hear that, regularly. I am happy to say the new trains, the order for which we placed will be electric and battery-electric and very environmentally friendly, will have much more capacity and multipurpose space in order that we can carry more. There always will be a limit to what we can carry. The examples the Senator gave are very good, but we are not yet in that space. As the demand grows, we may move into that space.

One of the nice things about the new spec we have put on the trains is that it is modular based. If there was a big shift over the coming five to ten years to bikes and we became similar to Amsterdam, one could create more space quite easily. The train would not have to be remodelled.

We already do some off-peak pricing on the Internet. Pre-Covid, we did that kind of pricing between Galway and Limerick and we saw a massive increase in activity on that route, especially in student travel, because we made the price very competitive. We work with the NTA on that. It, ultimately, sets the pricing structure but, with its agreement, every now and again we offer those kinds of incentives to entice people to our lightly-used services.

Senator Gerry Horkan

If Mr. Meade was given €1 billion or €2 billion and could do anything he wanted, what would he do first?

Mr. Jim Meade

We would continue with the programmes we have in place. We have several programmes-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

If there was an additional €2 billion, on top of everything else, what is the one thing Mr. Meade would do next?

Mr. Jim Meade

I would do the regional cities and create the counterbalance to Dublin.

Senator Gerry Horkan

What does Mr. Meade mean by "do" the regional cities?

Mr. Jim Meade

One would complete Cork metropolitan area transport strategies, CMATs, which we have started with €185 million; we would look very closely at the structure around Limerick; and complete Galway and Waterford. One would create a counterbalance of growth against Dublin.

Chairman

I will now move to Senator Buttimer. Senator Horkan will step in to the Chair for approximately 15 minutes. I need to attend to something.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I welcome our members from Irish Rail and thank them for their presentation. I know we are discussing an all-Ireland rail review but I am sure Mr. Meade heard Mr. Dermot O'Leary on "Morning Ireland" in the context of the removal of the mask mandate. I ask that we support the continuation of the the wearing of masks on trains and public transport for a while longer. We have only had a couple of weeks since the policy on restrictions changed. Mr. O'Leary made some very good points this morning on "Morning Ireland" that are worth supporting.

I thank Mr. Meade for his engagement with other members of the committee and I during the course of the past year. It is refreshing that the chief executive of Irish Rail will engage with us on issues around Irish Rail and Cork. We are discussing the all-Ireland review, but in the context of Mr. Meade's remarks about the importance of freight and reconnecting with ports, what plan does Mr. Meade have for Cork Port, given it will move to Ringaskiddy?

Senator Gerry Horkan took the Chair.

Mr. Jim Meade

It is always good to interact with public representatives in order that we both understand our needs and requirements. In terms of masks, we work closely with the general secretary of the National Bus and Railworkers' Union, NBRU, Mr. O'Leary, and with all our staff, to ensure their safety and that of our customers. As I said earlier, we always comply with the Government guidelines on mask wearing and will continue to support it, as long as we are requested to do so.

I am probably a day early speaking on Cork Port, because, tomorrow, I will go down to meet its CEO, to have the very discussion about which the Senator spoke, to see how our freight strategy interacts with their plans and how we can reconnect. We are focused on the fact that Cork can contribute to moving freight back onto rail. I will have that conversation with him tomorrow.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I compliment Mr. A.J. Cronin on the great work he does in Cork. The question I ask Mr. Meade is in the context of CMATs. I know Mr. Meade is a Clare man and Deputy Carey referenced Limerick and Clare. How stands the CMAT process? Where are we in terms of the timetable, investment and delivery of the projects around light rail, as part of the CMAT strategy for Cork?

Mr. Jim Meade

We have set up a team in Cork which Mr. Cronin will head up. I am happy to say the NTA has also put some people into Cork for this project. We have housed them all together as one operating unit, which was the right thing to do, in the one office space. We have a timeline to spend the resilience money for Cork. We have three contracts to have in place this year; the double tracking from Glounthaune to Midleton and the resignalling and through platform. We are on target to deliver those contracts this year and to get that resilience funding spent in the time envelope we have been allowed. We are full steam ahead with Cork and happy to be so.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I commend Mr. Cronin and Mr. Meade, in particular, for ensuring the NTA delivered on its commitment to have that office in Cork.

Deputy Crowe mentioned the importance of security on our trains. Has Mr. Meade had any engagement with the Garda Commissioner or the Department of Justice and the Minister in the context of a specific traffic corps for Irish Rail? Second, in the context of what we see and hear, there is an increasing level of antisocial behaviour and poor behaviour on trains. What is Mr. Meade’s stance on increasing security or having a dedicated rail security corps?

My last question relates to train breakdowns. There have been a number of engine failures on the Cork-Dublin InterCity route in the past year. A report was commissioned by Irish Rail on a policy that needs to focus on the customer response rather than the train rescue.

I again thank Mr. Meade and all his staff for their competency and engagement.

Mr. Jim Meade

Certainly on the security side, I meet quite regularly not with the Commissioner, but with one of the deputy commissioners on security. A couple of years back, we recognised that this issue needed more attention and we recruited a security specialist who was an ex-chief superintendent. We are bringing that skillset in-house because we did not have it. That has worked very well. There are regular and ongoing interactions and operations between the Garda and ourselves. They travel on our trains quite regularly. The drug squad travels and brings the dogs, and they actually travel undercover as well. They have been very successful in all of those activities.

We recognise, as we said earlier, that we do have security and antisocial issues. However, we have moved forward in conjunction with our staff. We have a couple of forums working now where we get ideas from the staff and the Garda to make all that happen. I will not deny that it is an ongoing uphill struggle. However, we recognise the importance of security. It is why we have added a lot of staff onto our trains in the past two years – the customer service operatives. Adding staff exposes them to the potential as well, so we have many of the processes working with them. I mentioned the Garda hubs earlier. All those staff now have a direct phone link to the key Garda stations on the route and the Garda provide a rapid response when they gets calls from us directly. That is working very well and we are very happy with it. Is there more to do? Of course there is. With security and antisocial behaviour, we never finish.

Sadly, we have the odd breakdown. Mechanical things will fail. After one where we had a longer delay than we would like, we just went back to first principles and asked, “What are we trying to achieve here?” When I say it, the Senator will think it is very straightforward, but the railway people keep the railway moving. We have just shifted our emphasis so that it is not about rescuing the trains; it is about rescuing the customer and bringing the customer to the very front of our focus. That is what that report is about. There are some very good sensible, solid actions out of that such that we will always keep the customer moving and we will worry about the train later.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I welcome Mr. Muldoon, Mr. Meade and Mr. Kenny. I will start on the basis of the stuff they have put forward as important to their organisations in the rail review and future planning. Mr. Meade and I have spoken previously regarding the Enterprise service, which is something that is close to my heart as I use it quite often. We said that until it is at least an hourly service, it will not do the business as a commuter facility. Are we still talking 2026-27 for an hourly service? Is there no chance of speeding that up? Regarding DART+, how far out are we on the timeline for that, particularly for Drogheda, etc.? On the entire cross-Border scenario, we have all seen the map of the north-west and that complete blank in rail infrastructure. Mr. Meade might not be aware of it at this point, but what sort of interactions, consultations or conversations have happened in the review on that? Where does Irish Rail sit on this?

Mr. Jim Meade

Certainly, on the Enterprise, the hourly service is more than an ambition; it is something we will deliver over time. I have been working with Mr. Chris Conway of Translink on looking at how we would bring in an hourly service, at least for the morning and evening peaks, as we wait to develop the full service for 2027. We have some extra fleet coming at the back end of this year - 41 InterCity intermediate railcars. We are looking to try to allocate some of them and Translink will do the same thing so that we can provide another train set at each end. That will allow us to do a morning and evening peak service initially. There is a requirement to get people into Dublin earlier in the morning and then out later in the evening.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

When is that expected to be in?

Mr. Jim Meade

We should be able to do that probably by the back end of next year. Therefore, it will be much sooner. Then we will work towards replacing the Enterprise fleet and having a full hourly service all day long from 2026-27. That is the current plan.

We are also working on getting within a target of a 90-minute journey time. We will bring in the new fleet and we are still working out the details on whether we electrify the line and what propulsion we use. Diesel is becoming a dirty word and rightly so, so we need to be looking at all other options of what kind of voltage we would use.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

So not all of those decisions are made yet?

Mr. Jim Meade

No, they are still very much a work in progress. We have a joint team on it, both from our side and Translink’s looking at it. The SEUPB funding is not in place yet, but we have moved ahead and the two companies are funding some research work and specifications on the fleet so that we do not lose any timeline on it. I think that is going to happen. Our journey time target will ultimately be 90 minutes.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is it. I just have the question on the wider cross-Border scenario and whether ----

Mr. Jim Meade

Arup is looking at the routes we could put on, what could be added to it and what other connectivities we could have. Mr. Muldoon and myself still are still waiting for the -----

Mr. Peter Muldoon

The north-west is a key issue for both sides of the Border and in the work that Arup is doing.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Everyone has seen the map.

Mr. Peter Muldoon

Yes, everybody has seen the map.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is sound. I would like to ask about Irish Rail's interaction with the NTA. We had the Minister in here. Promises had been made regarding a flexible TaxSaver ticket, particularly for people remote working who might only be travelling on public transport only two or three days a week, and possibly even less than that. We have been told, particularly in regard to trains, that it is a technical difficulty. Perhaps there is a facility for a swipe scenario. However, perhaps we could even go back to something prehistoric in the short term, such as literally punching holes or whatever it takes to get to that point, because it seems that this is something that people need and want and it is solution we could come up with relatively fast, even on an interim basis.

Mr. Jim Meade

Certainly, we work closely with the NTA on it and, in credit to the NTA, it is putting much time and effort into trying to come up with a solution. There are a couple of aspects involved - ticketing, revenue and taxation as well as security once we put it in. It is front and centre and it is getting a lot of discussion to see if we can come up with a product that is manageable. The other things that are happening with the young adult fares and the 20% reduction across all fares will also contribute to that. It is getting attention and I can say on the NTA's behalf that it is endeavouring to come up with a product as quickly as possible.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

As quickly as possible. There is no timeline on this. The previous ones it had it obviously did not take into account just how big of a difficulty it is. I assume Mr. Meade is interacting with it from a point of view of an interim solution being possible.

Mr. Jim Meade

I think there is, but I will be honest with the Deputy that there is not one the table yet. However, all solutions are being looked at. It is not just about how we modify the TaxSaver ticket that is there, it is about how we can come up with a system like the Deputy is describing that would work for it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Right.

Mr. Jim Meade

It is still a work in progress. It is not delivered.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is okay. Irish Rail does not have a solution that it can magic up today just because it would be very handy.

I refer to the earlier discussion on community safety and security. What is Irish Rail's spend at this point in time? Can Mr. Meade elaborate on the use of undercover gardaí? Is that on the basis of where problems have existed before or is it for specific reasons? I imagine that it is a limited enough operation.

Mr. Jim Meade

It is not; it is quite an extensive operation, in fairness to An Garda Síochána. Currently, we spend just under €6 million per year, which is up 40% from a couple of years ago.

We have invested a lot in both static security and roaming security across the network. When we look at the statistics, we see that the plan with the Garda is working well. I would not downplay that in any way. They have come on board, if members will excuse the pun, and impacted significantly on the activities on board. There is still activity. We also have to recognise sometimes that what is reported as antisocial behaviour might only be boisterous behaviour or people being loud. It varies a little. We take it seriously. We recognise there is much work to do. I highlight that a lot of work has been done by An Garda Síochána and will continue to be done. If we need to add more than the €6 million, we will.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I accept that. The witnesses mentioned recovery and resilience funding. I imagine the Brexit adjustment fund would be relevant. Have the witnesses asked for money from it?

Mr. Jim Meade

We have some projects running under the Brexit adjustment fund.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I welcome the witnesses. We are talking about the all-island rail strategy, which was directed towards interconnectivity between cities. It did not concentrate so much on suburban rail services. I contend that if we want people to take intercity journeys, they will often start with another public transport mode, such as suburban transport modes. I might get the DART from Bray to Connolly Station to get a train to Sligo, for example. Are the witnesses satisfied the suburban rail strategy is satisfactory and there is enough emphasis on that with the DART, the potential electrification of Limerick, Cork and the double-tracking into Galway?

Mr. Jim Meade

I think it is satisfactory. The DART+ programme highlights what can and will be done in the Dublin area strategy. We mentioned our regional cities strategy earlier in the conversation with other Deputies. The current Chair offered me €2 billion to do what I wanted. We outlined what we would spend that on. It would be concentrated on getting the regional cities up and running.

Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan)

It is not really in my gift but I take Mr. Meade's point.

Mr. Jim Meade

The greater Dublin area strategy is currently being reviewed again by the National Transport Authority, NTA. We will make submissions to that and put in what we believe should be the next steps with regard to the greater Dublin area. DART+ does not finish it by any means but it adds much capacity and electrification. We are now starting to look at what the next stage after DART+ will be.

Deputy Steven Matthews

On that line of thinking, we need railways to develop and to have long-term strategies because we need to move to public transport. We know the benefits that decarbonisation brings and about regional interconnectivity. It is important for any rail company to know there is a pipeline of funding and a vision at a strategic level in government. We have never seen as much investment in public transport as there is at the moment, including the national development plan, which assigned €35 billion to public transport projects. Will the witnesses outline the importance of that? Rail projects take a long time to develop, design, plan and construct, and then to get operational. We invited Northern Ireland Railways today and it is unfortunate it could not attend, because to have all-Ireland rail connectivity, we have to know that company is backed by whoever controls the finances in Northern Ireland. I am not sure that is the case. We see that clearly here with this Government and in the national development plan over the next ten years. Will the witnesses outline the importance of having that confidence that they have backing to develop projects?

Mr. Jim Meade

The Deputy is coming at it from a view that is relevant for the long-term development of all public transport, not just rail. The lesson from the crash that is important to take forward is not to stop the pipeline and the investment in planning. The issue for us is there was not a pipeline of projects when we decided to do this. The real benefit will come if we create that pipeline. If we cannot see the full funding profile in front of us, we could at least have a pipeline of projects. They could include projects to DART+, install four tracks north of Connolly to Malahide to create capacity and have a 90-minute journey time to Belfast, and have double-tracking on a single-track network to improve frequency or freight activity. Those projects would be mapped out, properly designed and taking through the planning process. We spoke earlier about how the planning process is elongated, but we recognise the Attorney General is looking at that. If we can make that process more efficient, that will contribute to ensuring the pipeline continues. That was the missing link for us.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I completely agree with Mr. Meade. Governments should plan beyond that four or five-year cycle of Government and look at ten-, 15- or 20-year plans, which is required for large-scale investment such as public transport projects. Decarbonisation is an important aspect in the rail strategy. Electrification of lines is the best, most efficient way we can do that. When we look at the cost of electrifying rail lines, what figure do the witnesses put on the electrification of a standard, simple twin-track, per kilometre?

Mr. Jim Meade

I do not know off the top of my head but we can get that for the Deputy. There is a cost per mile. We have to look at it from the point of view of installing 100-year infrastructure. When one builds rail infrastructure or any other infrastructure, one is building an asset that outlives several generations of politicians and managers. It is national infrastructure that is there for the long haul. The current infrastructure we are working on was built in the 1840s. Some of it is on the same alignment and will be there for 100 more years. We have to look at our costs over the life of the asset. We also need to look at electrification from the point of view of where technology is taking us. We may not need to electrify as much as we think. We can have discontinuous electrification. As we move towards electrification for Cork, we are considering just having charging points. We put an order in for trains last December with a battery capacity for about 100 km. They would travel from Mallow to Cork, Cobh and Midleton on batteries that would be charged at each station.

The technology is evolving and catenary may not be needed everywhere. Catenary is needed for a high-frequency service that runs every five or ten minutes like the DART at peak hours. There is a point in the level of frequency and with the size of trains where it is cheaper to have catenary doing the work. Electrification is the way forward. It is better at accelerating or decelerating. It is much more efficient. There is less maintenance involved on the units. The new trains are all electric. The battery pack is put on them. If we want to take it off or add more, we can. It is proper technology for the future.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I welcome the witnesses. One of the most profound statements they made is that railway planning usually covers several generations. The destruction of our railways around this country has impacted on several generations. That brings me to a question from a dear friend and colleague in the west, Mark Duffy, who is a councillor in Ballina. He speaks about the western rail corridor. He wonders if there is any chance of an interim report about where we are with the corridor and what is likely to happen there in the near future. I will leave that with the witnesses and move on.

We have moved to having a society that has the capacity to work from home often. Some of my colleagues have mentioned this. If I live in Westport, I can get a 5.20 a.m. train and be in Dublin for 9 a.m., or soon after that. If I live in Ballina, I cannot get to Dublin until 10.30 a.m. or 11 a.m. I normally do not do constituency stuff. I am a Senator and should not be engaging in local politics. I see Councillor Duffy's point that commuters from Ballina need to be able to get to Dublin just as those from Westport do. What would it take to review the start time for Westport? I will come back to Mr. Meade after those two questions.

Mr. Jim Meade

The western rail corridor will be included as part of the all-island rail review. It is one of the routes that is being looked at by the review, and when it comes back to us, a decision will be made by the two Departments about whether it is progressed. It is still a live issue. We expect the first report in about a month.

It is very much still a live issue and part of the all-island rail review.

I would make two points on what the Senator said about travelling from Westport and from Ballina. We have just started, with the National Transport Authority, a review of the whole network timetable. It is coming from the point of view of what the future will be post the pandemic and with blended working and remote working. That timetable review is looking at the fact we are getting a new fleet. Probably part of the reason we do not have a service everywhere at present is we have every wheel turning as it is and the higher flows of people are getting the fleet that is there. As we start to bring in some fleet at the end of this year and then new electric trains in 18 months or two years, that will allow us cascade trains or other fleet across the country. We intend increasing the frequency to regional cities. We intend looking at the branch lines. We intend looking at what the Senator mentioned - the Ballina service - and asking whether we can put another set-up there and provide an earlier morning service.

People will move to the regions. We are seeing some of it already. People will have blended working. They will travel to Dublin a day or two a week or three days a week. We are seeing that within our own organisation. I believe blended working will bring more people onto public transport. If you are driving that distance for a couple of hours, you have to drive it. If you get on a train, you can work and do what you want. You can eat or take a snooze if you are going home from a long day. You cannot do any of that in the car. That blended working will bring not only the people we had previously back onto public transport but many new people. As we said earlier, if at the end we have the right infrastructure, be it bus connections beyond Ballina and beyond Westport, be it hopping on the Luas or on a bike here in Dublin or in Athlone, Galway or any of the intermediate stations, that is where we will get to. The timetable review will look at more services such as the Senator outlined. The blended working will bring more demand and the all-island rail review will take cognisance of that.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Has Irish Rail ever considered a Ryanair approach to rail travel? If I travel by public transport, I like to travel on a train because I have the freedom to move about and I can get a meal on many trains, which suits me nicely. I am looking at fares. From Galway to Dublin costs €20 on a train and €12 on a bus. Killarney to Dublin costs €43 on the train and €25 on a bus. I guess it comes down to choice and personal economic circumstances whether a person will travel on a train or a bus.

I see the point Mr. Meade makes that on the train I have the comfort of being able to work while I travel. Most of the trains are well-equipped with Wi-Fi etc. My experience on Irish Rail's trains is that the staff are wonderful. We are well looked after when we get on the trains, albeit there are security issues arising. Mr. Meade can be proud enough of his staff. However, if Irish Rail drops the fare structure, will they come. That might be the way I would put it.

Mr. Jim Meade

The Minister believes they will because he is dropping fares by 20% by the end of April. The Senator will see that in play.

On the Ryanair model, I am not sure. I was in the airport very early this morning dropping off my daughter-in-law who had to go to see her sister. She had to travel at short notice for family reasons. I would like to be getting €250 if the Senator turns up the day before for a train ticket, and I will not charge him €20 for his bag if he wants to bring it with him. There is a good fare structure. With the likes of trains and buses and land-based transport, we get a chance to plan a bit more. If you plan in advance, there are some very good fares. We all get caught from time to time and need to walk up and go because something has changed. It is a little dearer, but that is supply and demand.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

There are two more points I want to put to Mr. Meade quickly. I drive quite a lot across the country as well. For example, when I would arrive in Cork, I might want to go out to west Cork or somewhere like that, and I take my car instead. Senator Horkan made the point that he would love to be able to drive onto a train and drive off at the other end.

Similarly, as I drive across the country, there are a couple of noted haulage contractors the names of which I see. We often play a bit of a game to count how many of a particular contractor's trucks we see on a particular journey. I cannot for the life of me understand why we do not have lo-lo working with trains where the majority of goods travel across the country and have pick-up points in Limerick, Ballina, Castlebar or wherever, and we distribute from there. I believe the carbon saving would be considerable. If the pricing structure were right, it would suit the haulage companies. I drove a truck many years ago and it is rough going. I would much rather drive a small truck around than a great big 40 ft one.

My last point is on wind energy. There is substantial funding available at present in Germany for the development and storage of hydrogen. Has Irish Rail engaged with either GMIT in Galway or UCC in Cork, which is quite advanced in research in this area? It may be a cash cow for Irish Rail in years to come that would supplement its income. I believe there is €2 billion available through the German Bundestag for research and development in this area. I will leave those points with Mr. Meade.

Mr. Jim Meade

On the fare structure and the lo-lo principle, a version of that is what we are looking at in our freight strategy that I referenced earlier. We believe there should be inland ports and that we would do the trunk into inland ports and reduce the demand on the haulage sector, while maybe it could do double trips then in a day rather than single trips. It is a combined approach of inland ports that become big logistic centres where we do the heavy lifting into them and then they can do the runs to the regional cities. That blended approach would work.

We are working with a Victorian railway and bridge heights etc. are an issue in putting trucks on trains as would be seen on the Continent. It does not work for us.

We are part of a group that is looking at hydrogen. Particularly our sister company is looking at it from a bus perspective, but we also have some of our key engineers on it for what we can develop over time for trains. We believe that is a little further off. Two companies in Germany have small trains running, merely testing it and seeing how it works. We believe it is some way off.

Deputy James O'Connor

I welcome the people who have come in to the committee today from Irish Rail. I acknowledge that throughout the pandemic it has been extremely difficult for many people working within public transport. I thank Irish Rail for coming through what has been an horrendous two years. I hope we are out of the worst of it. I wish Irish Rail well with the recovery of passenger traffic.

My questions are focused on the all-island rail review. I am a big believer in Ireland having the ability many of our European neighbours have in terms of high-speed rail between our major population centres on the Cork-Dublin, Dublin-Belfast and Limerick-Dublin lines, which would all be significantly busy lines. Does Mr. Meade envisage a time when we could get the journey times on those journeys in and around an hour and a half, or even less, by implementing traffic speeds in excess of 250 km per hour to 300 km per hour, which have been in use in many European countries for decades?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell resumed the Chair.

Mr. Jim Meade

We see a subtle but significant difference between high-speed rail and higher speed rail. The Deputy will have seen that in my submission that I read into the record at the start. For the real high speeds, such as those of the Shinkansen in Japan, you need long distance and dedicated line. It is only between major urban centres. It does 600 km or 700 km and does not serve anywhere in between. We are looking at what are probably more modest speeds compared with what the Deputy mentioned, namely nearer the 200 km per hour mark between Belfast and Dublin, and Dublin and Cork, in particular, as the main corridor. We are targeting sub-two hour journeys on all those. We would be targeting over the next couple of years to get the journeys to all the major cities down to under two hours. We are currently, to Cork itself, at 2 hours 15 minutes and we would be targeting 2 hours or 1 hour 55 minutes with the business train. As we increase the level of activity on the track work, we are increasing the speeds gradually and bringing it all to 100 miles per hour or 160 km per hour.

Beyond that, speeds will be heading towards the 200 km/h mark on a phased basis. That is a realistic number for us. After that, a completely new railway line on a greenfield site would be required, with all the costs that would come with that.

Deputy James O'Connor

I completely understand the premise of the question I am asking and how big a challenge it is. I am asking because there is a drive at European level for increased investment in rail. The latter will require completely new infrastructure because of the electrification requirements. We probably cannot use ancient rail bridges and all of that. Irish infrastructure went through a renaissance during the Celtic tiger years with buildings on the motorway network to a cost in the tens of billions. I wonder will the great undertaking in Ireland from an infrastructural point of view in the next 50 years be the implementation of high-speed rail. The reality is that for somebody like me who regularly drives from Cork to Dublin, the incentive is not yet there to leave the car at home because of the time saved by driving. By the time someone from east Cork has parked at Kent Station, boarded a train to Heuston Station and arrived in the city centre of Dublin, an extra hour or hour and a half will have been added to the journey time compared with how long it would have taken by car. The premise of my question about high-speed rail is to address that. Have our guests costings on how much it would cost to install railway lines that could accommodate speeds of 300 km/h in Ireland?

Mr. Jim Meade

The answer to that is "No" because we are concentrating on the existing infrastructure and footprint we have and maximising the return from it. The Deputy's point is valid. I would say it could take people an extra half an hour or 45 minutes at the end of a journey if they travel by train. However, they have a two-hour window to do things while they are travelling that they cannot do in the car, as we said earlier. That is working time. I do it all the time when I travel up and down to Limerick. Committee members who travel do the same thing. That is quiet time or working time. If I travel up and down from home on the train, I can do three hours' or three and a half hours' work.

Deputy James O'Connor

If a European fund every became available to co-fund projects for electrified high-speed rail, would Irish Rail consider it?

Mr. Jim Meade

We absolutely would. That is what the section of my colleague, Mr. Muldoon, does. He is the director of capital investment. If that was a decision we could make, we would be first up and best dressed to do it. At the moment, however, our plans are all around enhancing the infrastructure we have.

Deputy James O'Connor

I have another question I want to ask and I ask the Chair for a little leniency because it is a difficult question to answer. It is very important for Irish Rail to give its feedback to the Oireachtas. On the planning process for the implementation of new rail lines and the reinstatement of pre-existing rail lines that are now closed down, could Mr. Meade speak about any difficulties or annoyances he may have or any areas in which he would like to see reform? I am talking about the whole planning process to get new rail lines laid. Could he suggest improvements to get the job done efficiently and quickly? Part of the rail review will, we hope, be the implementation of new and additional rail lines in areas that badly need them. Mr. Meade might address that, if he can.

Mr. Jim Meade

I certainly will. We spoke earlier about the fact that the planning process we have is the planning process we have. It is certainly slow and cumbersome from our perspective. A railway audit process takes 18 months form start to finish. If, in an ideal world, we could condense that to three to six months, it would help us get shovels into the ground. Mr. Muldoon's teams are ready to go. We can do the contracts over a short period of time. We have our own infrastructure teams and can complement them. We have contacts in place to call on. There is no problem doing the work. The issue is getting to the point where the paperwork and the business cases are done, and the Department of Public Expenditure and An Bord Pleanála are happy. It is only after that we can get going. Those processes are the only ones we have. I am well aware that the Attorney General is looking at that and considering recommendations as to how we can streamline the process.

Deputy James O'Connor

I would encourage Mr. Meade to feed into that process, if he could seek a meeting to do so. It is imperative for that to happen.

Mr. Jim Meade

I absolutely agree.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is representatives of Irish Rail who, primarily, need to be making the case about how to make things more efficient.

My final question relates to the new greenway. There is obviously a historical aspect to the rail line in Youghal. We would be delighted if there was a chance to get a historic train to Youghal as a focal point for the greenway. If that is something our guests could help me and Cork County Council with, we would appreciate it. It would recognise the heritage that Youghal has from a rail point of view. We would love to get a locomotive for presentation in the town, if that is something our guests could help with.

Mr. Jim Meade

We will have a look at that for the Deputy. That is no problem at all.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank our guests.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy and call Senator Dooley. The Senator has seven minutes.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I will probably not need that much time because my colleagues from the Clare and mid-west region have covered many of the issues. I thank our guests for their presentation and their ongoing work, which is much appreciated. The concept of the Shannon Airport spur has been around for a considerable period. In my view, the strength of that offering will be the speed at which a train can get from Dublin to Shannon, not just to Limerick. Our guests might outline their expectations for that service offering. If it is just a commuter train between Limerick and Shannon, while that might help from the point of view of carbon reduction in the region, it is not going to benefit the airport and the wider economic activity in the region. What we really need from the perspective of balanced regional development is a development that makes it easy for people to get from the east coast to the west coast, from the city with the largest population to a city such as Limerick. There are many good plans that enhance the commuter service in the Limerick metropolitan transport initiative, which is good. However, unless we can show high-speed access from Limerick to Shannon Airport, we are not going to gain the opportunity that we otherwise might. Perhaps our guests will talk a little about that.

Mr. Jim Meade

The Deputy makes a good point. The question is what is the best mix. There are a couple of pieces to that Shannon rail link. The study will probably happen next year and Mr. Muldoon's team will probably do it for the NTA. The question, first and foremost, is which is the best route into Shannon. We must get that right. The next question is about capacity. Another of the projects we did not mention directly is the double-tracking from Limerick Junction to Limerick, which would give us capacity and line speed. We can leave Dublin today and get direct services all the way to Ennis because we do not need to change at Limerick station. We stay on the same train, more people get on and the train heads away again. I fully agree with the Deputy that it is about getting all those elements right. As we double-track out to Limerick Junction and improve that route, we are creating more capacity and speed. I do not want to prejudge what the study will show but Cratloe would probably be the ideal location, or perhaps Sixmilebridge. That would need to be double-tracked to create capacity. Single tracks create restrictions and a need for passing loops. It reduces the frequency available. We certainly hope the spur is built because we want to operate trains and a railway. We believe the region would benefit significantly. It is not just about moving the people of Shannon and Limerick. There is a much wider benefit than just the benefits to the local area. That is going to be important.

Senator Timmy Dooley

One of the biggest things to recognise is that Dublin Airport is reaching capacity. I know there is an additional runway but that is not going to meet demand as we head towards 2040 and 2050. People who understand the infrastructure of Dublin Airport know it is reaching a point beyond which it cannot go. There is a lot of latent capacity at Shannon Airport. There was an initiative by a previous EU Commissioner for Transport, Commissioner Violeta Bulc. Her vision was that countries should invest in the connections between key infrastructure, such as airports, to ensure that if there is latent capacity, it is utilised, rather than building additional runways or terminals, and thereby benefiting the cities in between, in essence. That vision may still be in the bowels of the European Commission but I think our guests are already clued into it. I thank them for that.

I will follow on from what my colleague referred to about offshore potential. Our guests have talked about Rosslare. Perhaps this proposal will be way off the scale and impossible but do our guests see any opportunity for a rail link between Moneypoint and the wider rail network? It would recognise the potential for floating offshore wind development off the west coast of Ireland, particularly in Moneypoint. It is probably at that point most of the electricity is going to come ashore. The ESB has plans for generating hydrogen there and other operators will want to do the same thing.

It may be that Moneypoint, in addition to being the landing point for electricity, has the potential to become a major hub for hydrogen. Is there potential to have a rail connection to the plant, purely for hydrogen freight?

Mr. Jim Meade

It would make land there very valuable if we put a rail spur along it.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Many people would be very happy with that.

Mr. Jim Meade

The point is well made but we would probably consider the other side of the estuary because we are constantly in discussion with the Shannon–Foynes board on reconnecting Shannon–Foynes to the network. It has a very extensive plan for Foynes Island and for putting more jetties there. It may be a case of bringing the product across the estuary and loading it onto the rail network.

Senator Timmy Dooley

So Mr. Meade is working on the principle of having hydrogen on the rail network?

Mr. Jim Meade

Absolutely.

Senator Timmy Dooley

On the western rail corridor, which others have mentioned, I have been in contact with Mr. Meade and his predecessors about the opening of the station at Crusheen. Could he talk to us about the current position on the further development of the western rail corridor? Does he envisage potential in that regard?

Mr. Jim Meade

We see potential. When the Minister launched the rail review, he referred to this matter in as much as there is potential from a freight perspective. He wanted it considered from a freight point of view. Much of our current freight activity is generated in the west, in Westport and Ballina, and the freight goes to Dublin and Waterford. Therefore, there is an opportunity for freight to go along the western corridor down into Limerick and maybe through Limerick Junction to Waterford. We are rail-connected in Waterford and haul into Waterford. We have been in close contact with the Port of Waterford and its CEO, Mr. Frank Ronan, on how we can bring more freight to the port. Reconnecting Foynes and Cork are also on our agenda. There is an opportunity for freight and the western rail corridor. We know from our interactions in respect of the rail review that this is being examined specifically.

Senator Timmy Dooley

My final point is very local. There is a trespass issue at Sixmilebridge station. Is there anything Mr. Meade might want to, or can, say to us about that?

Mr. Jim Meade

There is nothing we can say. It is a unique station in that we do not own the car park or anything like that. It is owned by the county council. The issue has featured for quite some time. We liaise closely with the Garda on it and manage as best we can, but it is council property, not ours.

Senator Timmy Dooley

It is an issue for commuters. Mr. Meade is familiar with it. Others and I regularly hear concerns about it. There are wider legal issues but it needs to be-----

Mr. Jim Meade

It is constantly being followed up. There is interaction between us and the county council on activity in that area.

Senator Timmy Dooley

And efforts are being made to solve it?

Mr. Jim Meade

Yes.

Senator Timmy Dooley: I thank Mr. Meade for the ongoing work. I have been around this House for a while and have served on the transport committee for most of my time here. I remember a time when issues were more fractious at meetings of this committee. I thought to myself at times that they were entertaining too, but a lot of good work was done. I thank the delegates for all the work they do. I also thank their staff, who regularly engage with Members of the Oireachtas in a nice quiet, dignified way and resolve many local issues.

Mr. Jim Meade

I thank the Senator.

Chairman

I endorse what was said. I believe the way Mr. Meade does business is a breath of fresh air. I commend the delegates for their interaction.

I have couple of questions. I am taken by the fact that Iarnród Éireann is seeking, as a priority, to reduce journey times between Dublin and all major cities to under two hours, at a minimum. I use the train service from Limerick to Dublin all the time and have done so for many years. It depends on the train. If Irish Rail proceeds to lay the second rail track between Limerick Junction and Limerick city, how much time will it save for those going from Limerick to Dublin or from Cork to Dublin? How long will it take? What is the current position? Roughly how much will it cost? It is a practical measure that could be significant in reducing the journey times between Limerick and Dublin. I know the journey at first hand.

Mr. Jim Meade

There are 17 or 18 miles of track to be laid. One of the important points is that it is on our own footprint. Back in old God’s time, in the 1800s and early 1900s, it was double-tracked. It is easier for us to work on our own footprint. We currently have some funding from the NTA to get all designs and studies done and to get planning permissions, although we believe we will need very few because the work is on our own footprint.

The journey time would be reduced in two ways. We can increase the speed on the line from the current speed, which is nearly 90 miles per hour, or 80 miles per hour in sections. It will give us more flexibility so we do not have to wait at crossing points or delay trains at intermediate stations. Our target is to reduce the Limerick journey to one hour and 45 minutes or one hour and 40 minutes.

Chairman

What is it at present?

Mr. Jim Meade

It is generally two hours.

Chairman

It is roughly two hours, but Mr. Meade is saying 20 minutes will be taken from the journey time.

Mr. Jim Meade

Ultimately.

Chairman: That would be ground-breaking. It would mean people could nearly commute daily if they wished. When will that happen?

Mr. Jim Meade

In real terms, it will probably be five years before it is all delivered.

Chairman

How long will it be before the planning and work start? How much will it cost? A figure was mentioned.

Mr. Jim Meade

About two years.

Chairman

Reference was made to about €60 million previously. Is the figure in that order?

Mr. Jim Meade

I do not have that figure. I will have to check it for the Chairman.

Chairman

Does Irish Rail have the go-ahead to proceed?

Mr. Jim Meade

We have some funding got. Mr. Muldoon looks after it. We do not have the final go-ahead just yet.

Mr. Peter Muldoon

We have some funding to look at the cost of it. If we were to start today, we could have contracts awarded within two years and construction finished about 18 months later.

Chairman

If Irish Rail got the go-ahead today to put rail on the ground, it would take approximately four years. It would take two to get construction under way. Whom does Irish Rail have to get approval from to proceed?

Mr. Peter Muldoon

We have not done the designs, so we have not actually evaluated whether we need a railway order. I believe we can probably do the work without a railway order. We have to go through a process to secure the funding. We have to adhere to the public spending code and demonstrate value for money. That takes time.

Chairman

Does that money come from the Department of Transport directly?

Mr. Peter Muldoon

It will probably come through the NTA. That decision is not made. It would probably come from the Department to the NTA.

Chairman

Is it supportive at this moment in time?

Mr. Peter Muldoon

The best way to put it is that it is agnostic on it. It is considering the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy, LSMATS. When that is published, it will let us know the position. However, it has given us funding so we can start preparing.

Chairman

The delegates will appreciate that, as a Deputy for Limerick city, I am very supportive. I very much agree with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, on rail. We wish the delegates well with the project. We will keep an eye on the matter.

May I go through a couple of other things? Regarding the LSMATS, the Minister has made a proposal that I believe is very good. The spur between Shannon Airport and Cratloe or Sixmilebridge is what causes the problem. What if there were a bus service from Shannon Airport to Cratloe, for example? I want this to be considered in the context of the LSMATS because it concerns the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area. How quickly does Mr. Meade envisage a light-rail system in operation whereby one will be able to fly into Shannon Airport, get a commuter bus to Cratloe, for example, and a train to Adare Manor to attend the Ryder Cup in 2027?

Mr. Jim Meade

A bus service can be put in place within months. If we get the go-ahead once the LSMATS is published, we will be well within the timeline to ensure people will be able to arrive at the Ryder Cup by train.

Chairman

How long if it is in the LMATS? Mr. Muldoon laid out very well the position on the double track to Limerick Junction. It is very easy to understand. There is a four-year time period, involving two years for procurement and 18 months for construction. Accounting for the LMATS and using existing rail tracks from Limerick city out into Clare, what is the timeframe?

Mr. Jim Meade

It is the same timeframe.

Mr. Peter Muldoon

It is very similar. We are proposing to start off on the freight line and get it up to freight line standard. We are hopeful we do not have to go through a railway order process but that will be determined. While we are doing that we will go through the railway order process necessary for it to open for passengers lines. All going well, we believe we can do that in time for 2027.

Chairman

You will obviously-----

Mr. Peter Muldoon

This may well be a limited service but we-----

Chairman

What does Mr. Muldoon mean by a limited service?

Mr. Peter Muldoon

I mean there are a number of obstacles. There are level crossings at junctions. It may be that in order to overcome the logistical problems with the level crossings we may have a shorter service in time for us to sort out what we are going to do with the level crossings.

Chairman

The Ryder Cup is five years out from today. Is Mr. Muldoon saying it is four-year process again, with two years for procurement and then two more to do the work?

Mr. Peter Muldoon

Approximately, yes.

Chairman

The previous draft LMATS plan did not have this in it. Mr. Meade would have attended a public meeting I held on it. There is an appetite for it. If it is in the revised LMATS plan due to be published, Mr. Meade is saying the double rail line from Limerick to Limerick Junction could be in place within a four-year period of two years for procurement and 18 months to build. He is saying the LMATS rail line linking Shannon Airport to the likes of Adare and through the city, using Moyross, going out to Killonan and all these other sites could equally be in place within a four-year period.

Mr. Jim Meade

There is a limit to how much we can do at one time but those are the approximate timelines with the best knowledge we have today.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Muldoon. I have a few national matters to raise. Going back to Deputy Cathal Crowe's point, is Iarnród Éireann considering rail specials? Take Dublin Zoo, for instance. Has Iarnród Éireann come up with specials with Dublin Zoo such that if I were going to visit Dublin Zoo in the morning, I could a train ticket at a subsidised rate? It would be a way of broadening the cost.

A bugbear of mine is the fact that mobile coverage on the rail line is still not up to par. Mr. Kenny will be aware we have discussed this for as long as I am involved. Where is that at?

It is just those two things. I welcome the Limerick Junction to Limerick double rail line. We await that with great interest. It is significant for us. The officials may respond to those two quick points and then I will conclude.

Mr. Jim Meade

The Chairman has flagged the mobile coverage to me before. The mobile operators do not put masts along the train lines. They put them in urban areas. We are at the mercy of the providers. We have good Wi-Fi on the trains-----

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Jim Meade

-----and we are recommending people use WhatsApp calls.

Chairman

I appreciate that. I use WhatsApp.

Mr. Jim Meade

They will eliminate that issue. We have our commercial people along with the NTA looking at how we attract people back onto trains post the pandemic. We are looking at commercial offerings and incentives that will bring people back. We are looking at how we can combine ticketing for people for things like Dublin Zoo and other locations in Dublin.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Meade, Mr. Muldoon and Mr. Kenny. Deputy Lowry is next. He has roughly seven minutes.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I thank the representatives for their comprehensive overview and stating their ambitions for the future. The service has improved significantly. I use it and must say the staff are exceptionally good. They are always courteous and friendly and that is obviously important.

I have two questions. I am going to be parochial on this one. What is the position, what money has Iarnród Éireann expended and what does it intend to spend on the Nenagh to Ballybrophy line? That is a very underutilised line. This is because the timetabling is not conducive to people travelling on the line, especially to work. It is also very slow. Then there is the frequency of service. Down the years, it has always been said this service was not being used and for that reason there was not investment on it. It was not being used because it was not attractive to the commuter. We have put a lot of pressure on. The representatives have been forthcoming about what they can do. Will they outline to me what they have done and propose to do to make this line more attractive and make it easier for people to access their destination?

On the other side of that line, there is a need for a commuter service between Nenagh and Limerick. Many people are travelling from Limerick out to Nenagh on a daily basis. Many of them have told me they would use a service if one was available. Nenagh is a satellite town to Limerick and with its proximity to the University of Limerick there is a big demand there. Will the representatives tell me what proposals Iarnród Éireann has on that? How could they improve it and what kind of a timeframe are we talking about?

How is Iarnród Éireann is catering for people with disabilities? What improvements has it made? Yesterday we had a debate in the Dáil on people with disabilities and how difficult they are finding it to access public transport. The representative might outline what improvements have been made there and what its plans are to enhance the service for those with a disability.

On the PSO and the overall financial position of the company, its trading has obviously been severely impacted by Covid. Will the representative give us an overview of the company's current financial position? What do they expect the outturn to be for the year? What impact will the Government's decision to reduce fares have on it? I presume there is an arrangement in place whereby the company recoups that money from the Exchequer. What kind of cost is put on that particular measure from Iarnród Éireann's perspective?

Mr. Jim Meade

I thank the Deputy. The Limerick-Ballybrophy line was in a poor state and was allowed deteriorate back through the decades. I am happy to say that in the last couple of years we have been renewing the track on that line. We have been doing planned closures of the line and doing four or six miles at a time. We planned for four miles this year and I am happy to say the Department is looking at funding the remaining eight miles. We are doing four miles this year then we will have eight miles left. It has not been approved yet but the Department is looking and we believe it will look favourably at allocating the funding to finish it. That will be the track brought back up to the specification it should be at. It is a line with an awful lot of level crossings on it. There are 12 manned level crossings and several hundred, I think, farmer's crossings. There is an issue with that. The speeds will never get to what you would get on the mainline but that said, the trackwork, infrastructure and track bed itself will be finished if this last €6.5 million comes. That would be significant for us because then that trackwork will be there for decades.

The Deputy mentioned people with disabilities.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I apologise for interrupting, but on the trackwork on the Ballybrophy line, I am aware there have been gradual improvements of it but it is slow. We have been in contact with the Department and it is certainly looking favourably at increasing it. In other words, this would double it from 4 km to 8 km in the current year.

Mr. Jim Meade

Yes.

Deputy Michael Lowry

That would conclude Iarnród Éireann's new tracking.

Mr. Jim Meade

Correct.

Deputy Michael Lowry

What difference will that make to the duration of the journey?

Mr. Jim Meade

I mentioned earlier in the meeting we are looking at a complete timetable review with the NTA and are looking at journey times and service levels for it. It will take several minutes off the journey time. I can check for the accurate figure for the Deputy afterwards. I do not want to put a time on it here and be incorrect but it will reduce the journey time. By how much I am not sure off the top of my head, but it will have a positive impact on the journey time and should be relatively significant.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I ask Mr. Meade to send me a note on that when he gets it.

Mr. Jim Meade

We absolutely will.

I am happy to say the new trains we have placed the order for have a real focus on disabilities. They are all level-floored so there are no steps in or out. When you press the button to open the door a step will come out to bridge the gap to the platform to reduce that risk. People with limited mobility or disabilities will be able to self-serve.

They will not need assistance to get on the trains. Over the past two years, we have added staff to our existing trains. We have customer service officers on board to assist people who have disabilities. They are there. We went through a period of time when we did not have staff on every train but we have now reversed that decision. That will also help.

On the public service obligation, PSO, which the Deputy mentioned, as we went into the Covid pandemic, we were all unsure what was going to happen but I am happy to say that, through the Department of Transport, the National Transport Authority, NTA, funded us back to zero at the end of every period. It funded us to the value of whatever the shortfall in revenue was to keep services running. It has done so right through the Covid pandemic and continues to do so. There was no loss made last year and there will be no loss made this year. We will be funded to a break-even point.

The 20% reduction that is to come in at the end of April will impact potential revenue by approximately €47 million. That is our current estimate. That will be taken up by the NTA. It is funding the difference. It will be an additional cost on the PSO.

Deputy Michael Lowry

So whether it is mammy or daddy, it is effectively a cost to the Exchequer.

Mr. Jim Meade

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Mr. Meade has said that the initiative to reduce fares by 20% will equate to a cost of €47 million to Irish Rail, which will be taken up by the NTA.

Mr. Jim Meade

It will be a reduction of €47 million in ticket revenue to the NTA.

Deputy Michael Lowry

What was the estimated cost to Irish Rail of business lost as a result of Covid?

Mr. Jim Meade

I will have to put a number on it. In the early part of the pandemic, we were only carrying approximately 10% of our original numbers. That grew right back up to approximately 75% as of last October. As a result of the Omicron variant, it dropped back to approximately 45%. It is now back up around the 70% mark.

Deputy Michael Lowry

In terms of Exchequer funding, whether from the NTA or anywhere else, what total deficit has been met by the State on behalf of Irish Rail's operation in the last 12 months?

Mr. Jim Meade

I do not have the total off the top of my head but we can give it to the Deputy. We do know what the extra contribution was.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Does Mr. Meade have a ballpark figure?

Mr. Jim Meade

For the two years, it was somewhere north of €200 million.

Chairman

That contribution is on top of what Irish Rail normally gets. It is carrying 70% of the normal number at the moment. When does Mr. Meade believe it will be carrying 100% of the number it was carrying pre Covid?

Mr. Jim Meade

We are budgeting for this year based on averaging 80% of the normal figure across the year. Our five-year plan has us back to pre-Covid 2019 numbers in 2024.

Chairman

With regard to Irish Rail's model, what kind of capacity must it reach to break even or make money?

Mr. Jim Meade

The Chairman mentioned breaking even or making money but the model is that we do not-----

Chairman

I am referring to the normal course of events. Irish Rail has PSOs and so forth but, with the model-----

Mr. Jim Meade

Our five-year plan has mapped out what the situation will be. If we hit 80% this year, we will be breaking even again. We will get to 90% and 100% by 2024 and will push on from there. Each-----

Chairman

The benchmark is 80%.

Mr. Jim Meade

Yes.

Chairman

Mr. Meade expects to be at that point by-----

Mr. Jim Meade

We are still only in the third week of period 2. Period 1 was weak but period 2 is looking good. On the current trends, if nothing else happens with Covid, that is the direction of travel.

Chairman

It is expected to hit 80% by the end of the year. I am conscious that Mr. Meade has to go. We have six minutes. I assume the members are okay. I am sorry, did Deputy Lowry have a quick question?

Deputy Michael Lowry

If somebody else wants to get in, I will let him or her in.

Chairman

I might let Deputy Ó Cuív in and then, if Deputy Lowry wishes, he can-----

Deputy Michael Lowry

That is fine.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

First of all, I was very interested in the matter of the battery trains. It is like going back to the Drumm battery trains of the 1930s which ran on what is now the green Luas line. I note in the statement that the rail strategy is to support balanced regional development. I presume that, if this is an all-Ireland strategy, this big black hole will be a big focus. Mr. Meade might confirm if I am correct in that. Can Mr. Meade give us some ballpark figures as to the cost of reopening a kilometre of Iarnród Éireann-owned disused railway line as compared to building railway lines on greenfield sites or on totally new alignments? When answering, he might give me the relative cost of doing that.

Mr. Meade mentioned dramatically increased demand on lines where frequency has increased. He also mentioned the benefits of higher frequency on the network. Has Iarnród Éireann modelled what might happen if the frequency were to be increased significantly on the Limerick to Galway line, the Ballybrophy to Limerick line, which Deputy Lowry mentioned, and the Waterford to Limerick line, particularly the section between Waterford and Limerick Junction because you cannot get from Waterford to Limerick without travelling that section of the line? I am interested in that because they are three least serviced lines in the whole country. On the last two I mentioned, I believe there is one train in each direction twice a day.

Mr. Meade said that Iarnród Éireann would do the required works at Crusheen and Ballycar if it got the funding. I presume he is talking about dedicated funding. That is fair enough. Urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, funding for the passing loop in Oranmore for Ceannt Station is mentioned in the documentation. Mr. Meade will know I know about this because it is near where I live in my constituency. If an application was made under category 2 of the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, which provides money for planning and developing projects, to carry out the first steps, it would be 85% funded by the RRDF with a contribution from the local authorities as well. This could allow a detailed physical survey of the western rail corridor from Athenry to Claremorris to be carried out. In other words, we could get on the ground and find out exactly what physical work would need to be done. All the physical surveys could be done, allowing for the design work. What would Iarnród Éireann's attitude be to such an approach and to funding like that coming into the process sideways so that it does not compete with its other alternative? If you are given a ball of money, you will spend it where the people are.

In that connection and on a second parallel issue, an undertaking was given by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, that it would fund the reinstatement of Ballyglunin bridge. As a parallel process, could design work to reinstate that bridge, on what I believe is a slightly different alignment, not be undertaken at the same time and that project actioned? We know where the money is going to come from in that regard because there is a written letter from TII absolutely guaranteeing that money is in the bag and should be drawn down to resolve that issue once and for all.

Mr. Jim Meade

I confirm that the north west is very much a part of the all-island review, as we said earlier. On the relative costs, I will come back to the Deputy with accurate figures but you are probably looking at €1.5 million or €1.75 million on our own land. After that, you are into the price of land and compulsory purchase orders so that figure could easily double if you are compulsorily purchasing virgin soil. On category 2 RRDF funding, if we can get funding to do any of those studies, we will be more than happy to do them. We will work through them with whatever agencies are involved. We worked with the local authority and supported it in getting the URDF funding for Galway and Oranmore. That was very successful and those works were fully funded. We got a letter of intent from the NTA which said that, if we were successful in getting that funding with the local authority, it would make up the difference. That all worked. "Yes" is the short answer on that question.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Will Mr. Meade address the issue of frequency?

Mr. Jim Meade

Frequency will happen. We have always had an issue with the fleet but we are now starting to correct that. As I referenced earlier, we have some carriages and vehicles coming this year and we will have new trains in approximately two years. That is cascading, which allows us to add frequency on routes. One of the issues on the Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction lines is that we do not have enough fleet to put everything in.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What about Galway and Limerick, even nearer to home?

Mr. Jim Meade

We are looking at adding frequency to all routes once we create capacity within the fleet.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Was any modelling done, based on Irish Rail's experience, that would show the increase on all services between, say, Galway and Limerick if three additional two-hour services were added per day during commuter hours?

Mr. Jim Meade

There is some modelling under way on that front to understand how we need to operate in Galway and Athenry. Yes, modelling does-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is it only in Galway and Athenry?

Mr. Jim Meade

We can extend that, I am sure, to include the western rail corridor as well.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Major rivers normally have a whole lot of streams, if you go back far enough. It seems that if the objective is to get a lot of people from Galway to Athenry, one requirement is to have feeder streams. That is why I am so keen to have Tuam and Claremorris included. If there are no feeder streams, there will be a really busy line. Anybody who uses the Tube in London, for example, will see there are not many people on the trains at the far-out stations, even at rush hour.

Chairman

Just before we conclude, I welcome Nina O'Connor, a transition year student on placement with Senator Horkan. It is great to see young people involved. I hope Senator Horkan is showing her the insider tricks of the trade.

I thank Mr. Meade and his colleagues — Mr. Muldoon and Mr. Kenny — very much for attending to engage with the committee. I wish them well. We will have them back.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.31 a.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 23 February 2022.