I welcome Mr. Gary Owens, chairman designate of Bus Átha Cliath, and Ms Clíodhna Ní Fhatharta, media and communications manager. I am glad Mr. Owens made it. We took the scenic route to get here but we are here today, so I thank him.
Bus Átha Cliath: Chairman Designate
Mr. Gary Owens
I thank the Chairman.
All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege for witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised they should also be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate if he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts of Leinster House will be reluctantly asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting. If members are attending in the committee room, they are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contacting Covid-19.
I invite Mr. Owens to make his opening statement.
Mr. Gary Owens
I am honoured to have been asked by the Minister for Transport and Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to become chairperson of Dublin Bus. I thank the Chairman and other members of the committee for the invitation to appear before them today.
I was born and grew up in Dún Laoghaire and attended the Christian Brothers school in Eblana Avenue. I have lived all my life in Dublin and am very proud to have been given the opportunity to be the chairperson of Dublin Bus over the next five years.
I have served as chief executive in the financial industry and technology and disability services and, more recently, as interim chief executive officer for the Football Association of Ireland. As a non-executive director over many years, I have served on national and international boards and was chairperson of audit and risk committees of large companies at both local and global levels. I am a chartered insurer and have attended both Columbia and Wharton universities during my career.
I am currently chairperson of Diona, chairperson of the risk committee and independent director of LeasePlan Insurance, and chairperson of a general insurance business called Icare Capital Partners.
I am conscious, as chairperson designate, that I am a custodian of what is a strategic State asset and a Dublin institution. As I assume this role, I would like to thank the outgoing chairperson, Mr. Ultan Courtney, who worked closely with the chief executive and board of directors over the past seven years to successfully position Dublin Bus as Ireland's leading transport provider. Today, the company is Ireland's largest public transport provider, carrying 70 million customers in 2021, and we hope to get back to over 150 million customers travelling per year as our society recovers from the pandemic.
Dublin Bus is a vital part of our domestic economy, with over 3,600 people employed in good, secure jobs. The stories of how companies are responding to these changeable and uncertain times are still emerging. Our employees responded exceptionally well in difficult circumstances and their resilience is at the heart of everything we do in Dublin Bus. I really look forward to meeting them in our depots across the city to thank them for their hard work and listen to their views and hopes for the future of the company.
At all times, our focus is on providing customers with safe, comfortable and efficient journeys, putting them at the centre of everything we do. That is why we recently bolstered our operational excellence and network resilience by introducing two new 24-hour routes, which will provide all-day and all-night services to customers in west Dublin and north Kildare.
The company is also assisting the National Transport Authority, NTA, with the implementation of the BusConnects Dublin area network redesign. The successful delivery of BusConnects is vital to the future aspiration of a sustainable Dublin city. It is also critical to achieving the company's goal of being the State's delivery partner of choice.
Over the centuries public transport in Dublin has grown and evolved, and the periods when it has thrived the most are the times when it has embraced change. With this in mind, we recently worked with Transport for Ireland, TFI, on the roll-out of a new 90-minute fare. This is a significant enhancement to our customer offering. The new 90-minute fare, when combined with fare reductions and, in particular, the 50% reduction for young adults, will incentivise the use of our services and help deliver on our ambitious modal shift targets.
Despite this progress, the gains made by Dublin Bus and public transport need to be further reinforced. One of the key advantages of using a bus is its ability to quickly adapt and accommodate additional customer demand in a way that no other transport mode can. As the economy began to recover from recession in 2014, Dublin Bus was able to quickly provide the additional services required to meet customer demand and deliver retail spend to the city centre.
The operating environment during the pandemic offered us a glimpse of what is possible for our city. With the optimal operating environment, we can have fast, reliable and sustainable bus services to the city centre. During the lockdowns, with fewer private modes of transport on the road, we saw sustainable public transport journey times reduced, bringing essential workers to their destinations more quickly. We can have a city where priority lies with the sustainable public transport user and those using active travel. We have seen that Dublin does not have to be a car-dominated, congested city. Sadly, however, as normality has returned so too has congestion.
Another key issue is sustainable urban development. New residential developments do not need enough car parking spaces to provide each household with the capacity to park multiple cars. Residential development should encourage the use of the local public transport links, which should be invested in to ensure there is sufficient capacity and frequency to handle this increased demand. It is 42 years since the introduction of bus lanes that transformed bus services across the capital. Today, they need to be protected and improved. When it comes to bus lane enhancement, we believe it would be appropriate to move away from time-specific bus lanes and towards 24-hour designation for all bus lanes on all days of the week. If we do not take these steps, we will inevitably see congestion get worse, commute times get longer, and emissions rise in line with population growth.
Over many years we have seen the benefits of embracing technology in our lives and in business. At its purest form, technology makes things easier to use and by design, better. We have seen the benefits of technology in the transport industry over many years leading to greater accessibility of our buses with zero tailpipe emission buses on order, traffic light priority for public transport and timely information for customers. We are now at a time where the technology and transport industries are significantly integrating. If we can plan together and capture the benefits that technology and transport can offer, we can facilitate modal shift and achieve our climate change targets.
Short-term initiatives include the use of account-based ticketing, for example using a token to pay a fare. The token can be a smartphone, smart watch, debit card or QR code. In March, the Government agreed funding to progress under the next generation ticketing project of BusConnects. Account-based ticketing can provide faster boarding times, allow for dynamic pricing to manage demand, provide a single payment system for the whole transport system, and can provide the cheapest fare given the journeys and modes taken, in real time.
Technology will also provide a platform for enhanced reliability and efficiency of service provision through greater use of data, analytics and artificial intelligence. Historically, traditional companies have not been imaginative enough with their assets and the benefits technology can bring. There is an opportunity for Dublin Bus to further build on its reputation through the early adoption of new technology to create and capture value for our customers and the State. Examples include the use of predictive maintenance to increase reliability and real-time capacity deployment to meet customer needs as they arise.
Technology is also an enabler for the sustainable development of our city by assisting with increased movements by way of an integrated multi-modal transport system. Many public transport users are also car users and there will always be a need for public and private modes. We must ensure priority is given to high capacity transport modes but that it works in harmony. We need to achieve modal shift in an appropriately managed fashion. This will require a consensus on the introduction of demand-management principles in our city, which technology can facilitate. The technology and innovations are there to deliver if consensus can be achieved.
I am pleased to report that when it comes to environmental sustainability, Dublin Bus is well on its way to achieving our long-term goal of zero emissions and being net carbon positive by 2050. We have big ambitions, because we deeply understand our part in creating meaningful and positive change in our city’s environment.
As chairperson designate, I want to see significant modal shift from private car to bus because I know it is vital to building a truly sustainable Dublin. Every time one of our customers chooses the bus, rather than taking the same journey by car, they are reducing their own carbon footprint and making a positive contribution to the environment. Every full Dublin Bus means a 92% reduction in carbon emissions for every kilometre travelled by our customers compared to the same journey taken by car.
As the largest public transport company in the State, we know it is our responsibility to embed sustainable practices in every aspect of our business, from the vehicles that carry our customers, to the energy and materials we use throughout the organisation. This collective responsibility is why we, in conjunction with the NTA continue to expand our hybrid-electric fleet, which now stands at 213 vehicles. The company is under no illusion of the enormity of the task ahead of us all in fighting climate change. It will take hard work, dedication, and commitment to achieve. We are doing this because it is the right thing to do for our company, our communities, our city and our future.
I know that Dublin Bus has a long-standing reputation for trust that is built on the solid foundations of strong leadership and good governance. It is my firm belief that robust governance underpins a healthy culture and good corporate behaviour, and I know that trust and transparency will continue to define the company in the years ahead. If appointed, during my tenure as chairperson Dublin Bus will continue to take a disciplined approach to strengthening our capabilities, including innovation and operational excellence, continued focus on inclusion for all, the digitisation of our company, and the advancement of technology for our customers' benefit. Equally, as one of Ireland’s largest businesses, we recognise that we have a responsibility and an opportunity to act on some of the most pressing social and environmental challenges in the world today. With our unparalleled reach across the capital, in thousands of communities, we are acutely aware that we have a real opportunity to create change. We will seize this opportunity.
Although we know that the recovery from the Covid-19 pandemic and other challenges will not be simple or straightforward, my greatest source of confidence that we will emerge even stronger and smarter is the strength, adaptability and dedication of the 3,600-strong Dublin Bus team.
I thank the committee members for taking the time to listen and I am happy to take any questions.
I thank Mr. Owens.
I thank Mr. Owens. Although I am aware that he is not quite set up yet, I congratulate him on his pending appointment.
As I mentioned in my contribution to the previous witnesses, we have two trusted organisations in front of the committee today. The previous session was with An Post, and now we have Dublin Bus. I loved to see Mr. Owens focus in his opening statement on continuing building the trust the people of Dublin have for this wonderful company, in which we feel invested and feel ownership of.
I wish to raise a number of points. Obviously, this is a period of change in Dublin Bus. I am not sure if we will see him at this committee before he departs so I want to put on the record that Ray Coyne will be moving on as CEO after seven years of operating Dublin Bus. He led on and brought forward climate and accessibility considerations, with great strides and great work, in his time at the company. I am sure a lot of this will be built upon, and that Mr. Owens will be part of the team to build upon that in his role as chairman.
His background is in disability services. I have been working with Dublin Bus on that in the past couple of years and a lot has been done in the standardisation of bus stops and level access. I have, however, been dealing with a number of wheelchair users who have larger wheelchairs - some wheelchairs are bigger than those used previously - where manoeuvrability on and off a bus is very difficult. In the context of wheelchair users and other people with limited mobility or other disabilities, and given Mr. Owens's experience and where he is coming from, what will be his area of focus for changes or improvements made? That is my first question. I might come in for a second.
Mr. Gary Owens
First, I acknowledge the Deputy's point about Mr. Coyne. He has done an excellent job over seven years and has been very impressive and helpful n my brief encounters with him so I echo the Deputy's point.
People with disabilities are close to my heart. When I left the private sector, I went to work with Down Syndrome Ireland so I would have had considerable interest in that. My PA, who had Down's syndrome, was concerned about the changes to buses as part of BusConnects so I get that. I know 100% of our buses have wheelchair access. I do not know the detail of what is in the plan. I have not seen it yet because I have not had access to all the information. I have significant interest in trying to make sure people with disabilities are catered for. If I learned anything when I worked with people with Down's syndrome, it is that people with disabilities face significant disadvantages so I would like to see the issue at the top of our agenda.
Given his background, I have confidence that Mr. Owens will ensure this issue will always be a focus regardless of how it manifests itself.
Mr. Gary Owens
I will have an interest in it because of my background.
That is encouraging. If Mr. Owens could push that to make sure it is always a focus, it would be great.
I am a big fan of BusConnects but it must be rolled out if it is going to dramatically improve public transport in Dublin. I am not making a political point but where I feel things fall down slightly is outside the M50. I represent Dublin Fingal. While there are some changes in BusConnects, it looks like north County Dublin will have a route and model very familiar to the one that has existed for decades. Fingal has a slightly lopsided nature in that the DART does a lot of heavy lifting on the coast while Dublin Bus does a lot for the middle, from Swords down, but then has real competition in the form of private contractors. That said, Dublin Bus still provides an unbelievable service and is always striving to improve.
Journeys are a lot longer in respect of those areas outside the M50. As good as the buses are and as improved as they have become over the years, long journeys are never entirely comfortable on double-decker buses. I would like to see a bit of focus because we could be waiting for a metro link for years. There are people who are public operator-minded and want to use Dublin Bus - their State-owned service - but they are under intense competition from private contractors with their fancy coaches. I would like to see some more innovation and extra effort to provide an increased service. My family lives on the Ballymun Road corridor. It does not matter what day of the week it is, they do not even have to check the bus timetable. They just walk out and they know they will be waiting four or five minutes and a No. 4, 13, 11 or 155 bus will come along. It does not matter. That is the way it should work. We do not quite have that outside the M50.
I wish Mr. Owens well. Dublin Bus is a great and trusted company. Be it during the pandemic where everyone's backs are to the wall and we need services that Dublin Bus or An Post provided or a concert at Slane, Dublin Bus is always there and I hope it will always be there in the future. When we are looking at new forms of transport, public bicycle schemes and possibly public scooter schemes, we need to ensure that Dublin Bus always leads and that if we put stations anywhere, we will put them where bus services congregate or have critical mass. I wish Mr. Owens well and thank him for all the work he will do in the future.
Mr. Gary Owens
BusConnects is a significant investment, including €2 billion in Dublin. We are quite confident. A significant consultation process was involved in BusConnects and a lot of thought has gone into it. I believe it can be transformational. For Dublin Bus, it is all about getting more people to use buses, increasing frequency, learning and reviewing as we go along and making sure we meet the increase in customer demand wherever that comes from. It is a most exciting project.
It will be transformational. Mr. Owens spoke about 24-7 bus lanes. These can be tricky local issues for politicians but that is when people on our side of the table need to be strong and say we are going to back public transport in a real way. We need to be strong when these tricky issues come up because they are not tricky. We need 24-7 bus lanes, tailor-made cycle lanes and traffic lights dedicated purely to them. This is how journey times are reduced and journeys become comfortable for people coming from the north end of Swords to where we are sitting today.
Mr. Gary Owens
If ever we needed this, Covid has proved that. Everything improved when there was not a lot of traffic on the roads.
It was great. I acknowledge all the work done by workers in Dublin Bus. It is fantastic. I have gone over my time.
No, it is quality.
Regionally, we are quite lopsided here.
It goes against the national trend politically so we are trying to rebalance matters in this committee.
If Dublin Bus ran a shuttle bus to Shannon Airport, this place would be packed.
We are doing our bit for balanced regional development.
Mr. Gary Owens
I thank Deputy Smith for his contribution. It was very useful and offer a good insight.
I congratulate Mr. Owens on his appointment. I will pick up on the point made by Deputy Smith about the staff in Dublin Bus. I worked in the company a long time ago. I started my apprenticeship with the CIÉ Group so I spent a lot of time working in the garages. I have seen real advancement in the service, the fleet, the technology and the reliability of the buses. It is rare to see a bus broken down on the side of the road, whereas that was a familiar sight many years. We must acknowledge the investment and the staff throughout the service, not just the drivers but also the back office and maintenance staff, and the vital service they provide us day in, day out. There are only a few 24-hour routes. I support the expansion of more 24-hour routes where they are feasible and deliverable. I hear talk of the 155 route becoming a 24-hour route.
I ask Mr. Owens to consider two issues during his time as chair. One is the provision of a 24-hour bus service. Many people would avail of such a service and it would be really helpful to have it. The second issue is the safety of passengers. Transport Infrastructure Ireland appeared before the committee to discuss its report entitled Travelling in a Woman's Shoes. It is not just travelling on the bus and in-journey time. It also concerns bus shelters. The shelters can be well-lit and maintained but it also involves the surrounding area. Will Mr. Owens discuss where passengers wait for or disembark from buses? We heard stories of women getting off at a different stop from the one nearest to them because they felt it was safer to walk that particular journey as they just did not like that particular stop. There is so much to discuss, including BusConnects and moving to an electric bus fleet, of which we are all supportive. Passenger safety and the expansion to 24-hour services would be really beneficial to everybody involved. I wish Mr. Owens the best of luck in his time as chair.
Mr. Gary Owens
I echo the Deputy's comments about Dublin Bus staff. I have limited access because I have not been appointed but anybody to whom I have had access has really impressed me, much more so than I would have thought, to be honest. I use the bus and find the service to be excellent. I am lucky enough to be on a good route. We have had one or two issues relating to safety. It must be paramount in terms of what we do, both for customers and staff and we need to make sure we protect both. They must be two key inputs in any strategy at which we are looking so they will be.
The maintenance of shelters is down to Dublin Bus. The placement of shelters is a planning issue. The roads section in the local authority would be involved in that. It is about making sure everybody is looking at this issue, not only in terms of sight lines and where the bus driver can pull in and pull away safely but looking at it fully from an aerial perspective and asking where are the safe walking routes to the bus stop and where can people feel comfortable walking.
We must use the landscaping and lighting in that general area to make it attractive for people to use the bus.
Mr. Gary Owens
When I get involved as chair, I will make sure that is on the agenda. It probably already is, to be fair. I just need to get more into the detail to make sure. I hear the Deputy and accept his input.
To reiterate, the 155 service to Bray should be prioritised as a 24-hour service.
I was here for Mr. Owens's opening statement. I also read it. I did not hear the contributions others have made because we were voting in the Seanad. I recognise some of the content of the speech because some it was the same as the speech Ray Coyne made two weeks ago. It also referenced 24-hour bus lanes, the Covid pandemic and other things. This meeting is as much about Mr. Owens as it is about Dublin Bus. The fact he has taken the role as chairman-designate is why we are all here. For my benefit and that of the people who may be looking in, he said in his statement he was honoured to be asked by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, to become the chairperson. Perhaps Mr. Owens will take us through how that came about. Was there a phone call from the Minister or what was the process?
Mr. Gary Owens
No, not at all. I dealt with Signium. I registered with Signium, a recruiting firm, and indicated I was interested in getting involved. When I left the private sector when we sold the business to Willis Group, I wanted to focus on Down's syndrome. I was facing non-compete clauses so decided to put something back in. I worked with Down's syndrome for a couple of years-----
With who did Mr. Owens work?
Mr. Gary Owens
I worked with Down Syndrome Ireland. I also worked as an interim CEO for the FAI. That was a one-year task to put in new structures and a new constitution as CEO. I enjoyed that work. I had a lot of interface with the then Minister of State with responsibility for disability, former Deputy Finian McGrath. I had a lot of contact with Secretaries General and Ministers as interim CEO. I enjoyed it so I registered with Signium to see were any positions available. I went through a lengthy process to get appointed. I did not meet the Minister until my final interview with him.
What is the process of becoming a chair? I am not familiar with Signium.
Mr. Gary Owens
There are three series of interviews. There is a panel to bring one through the interview process and a final interview with the Minister. There is a series of three interviews. Signium also conducts an interview and submits names.
Is that to stateboards.ie or one of these public appointment systems?
Mr. Gary Owens
I registered on that site as part of the process.
Mr. Owens expressed an interest in looking for the position of chairperson for Dublin Bus. Was it advertised?
Mr. Gary Owens
I expressed an interest in semi-State or State roles. I was then asked would I be interested in applying for the chairmanship of Dublin Bus and put my name forward.
Mr. Owen put his name forward with the help of Signium or whoever else.
Mr. Gary Owens
Yes.
He went through the process and here we are. It is useful for us to understand the process. I am not taking away from his statement, but when he said he was honoured to have been asked by the Minister, it sounded as if the Minister picked up the phone and called Mr. Owens. I do not think that of the Minister, Deputy Ryan.
Mr. Gary Owens
He did not do that and I did not mean anything by that.
I know Mr. Owens did not mean anything. It is useful for us know about the transparent process. There was, I presume, a field of other people who also wanted the job, Mr. Owens emerged as the successful candidate we are being asked to talk to, and here we are.
I will touch on the FAI. The previous Minister with responsibility for transport also had responsibility for sport. Mr. Owens probably came across his radar at some point. Mr. Owens was the interim CEO of the FAI. Would he have liked to stay on as CEO? Did he decide not to or was he superseded by events?
What period was that?
Mr. Gary Owens
I was appointed in February 2020. It lasted the full year of 2020. I made it clear at the start that I only wanted to go in as an interim CEO.
Mr. Owens did not go for the CEO position.
Mr. Gary Owens
I did not. To be absolutely transparent, I applied originally but then pulled out pretty much straight away. To be honest, it was good for everybody that Jonathan Hill was appointed. He was not resident in Ireland at the time. We needed an independent CEO with experience in that space and he had good experience. My job was to help source a new CEO, put a new board in place, rewrite the constitution and refinance. We erased €75 million in debt with Bank of Ireland. My job was also to build relationships with UEFA and FIFA. They were all the tasks set to me by the board and that was what I did.
I remember it was a turbulent time. Covid had just hit and everything was going on. Lest anyone accuses me of not declaring an interest, my father was a delegate to the FAI in 1990 or thereabouts, which is neither today nor yesterday, but I wanted to say that in case anyone accuses me of not mentioning it.
Mr. Owens has good experience as a member of boards, audit committees, risk committees and so on at both larger and smaller companies, international and local. Other than perhaps being a passenger, has Mr. Owens any exposure to the transport sector, in particular the public transport sector?
Mr. Gary Owens
I have been involved with Leaseplan for 11 years. It is a big European company.
Is Mr. Owens involved with Leaseplan Insurance?
Mr. Gary Owens
I am on the board of Leaseplan Insurance which is a subsidiary of Leaseplan Europe. It is the European insurance board. It is not an Irish insurance board. The business is based here. The insurance business is linked to-----
Is it predominantly car leasing?
Mr. Gary Owens
Yes. It allows one an insight into the technology that is going into cars and the changing behaviour in cities in respect of who is using cars and who is not. I have a good insight into the mobility side of the transport sector because I am interested. If you are trying to lease cars, you are interested in what is happening everywhere else.
Is Mr. Owens still involved with Leaseplan?
Mr. Gary Owens
I chair the risk committee.
Mr. Owens is now poacher and gamekeeper. He is trying to get people to lease cars with one hand and, on the other hand, he is trying to get people out of their cars and onto public transport.
Mr. Gary Owens
Leaseplan has already seen a significant shift in cities. It would believe in a fully integrated model. I do not see any conflict at all. I am on the insurance side rather than the leasing side. If anything, Leaseplan has been a brilliant company for learning and educating me around what is going on. Its main business is based in Holland. It has been a wonderful company in terms of leading on technology. I have learned an awful lot. It is helpful to be part of that time.
What about his experience with Leaseplan will Mr. Owens be able to bring to Dublin Bus?
Mr. Gary Owens
I think what I said. The fewer cars we have in cities the better. The evidence is pretty clear. Even from a consumer point of view, there is less demand from people in cities. Fewer people in cities want to buy cars. The mobility, from a leasing perspective, is facilitating customers to lease cars for one or two days. They only have cars when they need them in the city at weekends. That has been the big shift in terms of what is going on.
I am not very familiar with Leaseplan. The impression I had was that it was longer term leasing and the likes of the banks would have taken a fleet of cars and given them to certain executives and Leaseplan would have facilitated that. In fact, cars can be hired by the day or the hour.
Mr. Gary Owens
It was typical for someone who wanted a company car to go to Leaseplan. Companies would use Leaseplan for their company car structure.
I am familiar with Leaseplan and know it is very successful. I did not know it does short-time rental.
Mr. Gary Owens
It is shifting to personal leases. Personal leases are replacing people buying cars. People are only paying for cars when they need to use them. The technology that has been involved in all of that, and the changing customer behaviour, has been interesting to me. That is why-----
The point to be made generally is that, once I have bought a car, insured it, got its national car test and taxed it, I have already outlayed X amount of thousands of euro. The mentality now is to ask whether a car can be justified. Someone who does not have all those outlays and pays by journey may decide to cycle or get the bus. If I want to hire a car from Leaseplan for a couple of days because I want to go away to rural Ireland for the weekend, where I want to be able to drive around, I can do that.
Mr. Gary Owens
The Senator can do that.
In the same way I could with other car rental companies.
Mr. Gary Owens
That is why Leaseplan believes the integrated model will work. Personal leases will be for a year, a month, a week or a day. That model is shifting significantly in Europe.
I will turn to the content of the rest of Mr. Owens' speech. I am not accusing him of plagiarism or anything but much of it was similar to what Mr. Coyne told the committee. That information is probably coming from Dublin Bus. There was reference to 24-hour bus lanes.
There is much overlap between what Mr. Ray Coyne said two weeks ago at this committee and what Mr. Owens said. It makes sense that the chief executive and the chairman have similar thoughts about transport. The point about daytime bus lanes is very valid. The lanes running from 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. and for a few hours in the evening do not really work. The 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. lanes are in places like the N11. Having gone to the school on Eblana Avenue, I am sure Mr. Owens is more than familiar with the 46A, which is a successful corridor. If one is asking the general public for 24-hour road space, one will have to offer them 24-hour bus services on that road space. I do not see how any of us can tell constituents that they cannot use a bus lane at 1 a.m. when there are no buses on that bus lane.
(Interruptions).
Perhaps not. Let us get 24-hour services and then have 24-hour bus lanes. The 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. lane on the N11 has worked quite effectively. Many people still do not drive in the bus lane after 7 p.m. anyway. The dual carriageway goes the whole way through what would have been my council area, from Belfield to Cabinteely church. People do not park in that bus lane and, by and large, they do not squat in it after 7 p.m. It is not unfair to say that if there are to be 24-hour bus lanes, there need to be 24-hour services on those corridors. What scope is there for 24-hour bus lanes? We have a huge problem with taxis as the night-time economy picks up. We will have more activity at night-time when licensing legislation changes. What ambitions do Dublin Bus and Mr. Owens have relating to 24-hour services?
Mr. Gary Owens
The Senator would be more surprised if Mr. Coyne and I were not aligned.
Exactly. I was saying that I saw some of this just two weeks ago.
It is consistent.
Mr. Gary Owens
I have been working with Mr. Coyne. There is only so much I can see until I get approved. I found him fair, open and transparent. We are working together and have worked together on that. The Senator would be surprised if we did not. The Senator's point is solid. If we are looking for 24-hour bus lanes, we need to have a service to go with them. That comes back to the NTA's overall strategy. We consult it all the time. Part of the strategy is to provide a 24-hour service. We have already started that and it has been successful. The challenge that there is no point in having 24-hour bus lanes if we do not have the service is valid.
What opportunities does Mr. Owens see for Dublin Bus in his first 24 months that it is not doing already?
Mr. Gary Owens
My first challenge is to get a new CEO.
I would like to put on record how good Mr. Ray Coyne has been, as have some of his predecessors. I knew Paddy Doherty. Mr. Coyne has been an excellent chief executive. Mr. Owens has a big challenge in finding someone as good and knowledgeable as he was.
Mr. Gary Owens
I completely respect that. For me, as incoming chairman, the most important appointment that I will make is of a CEO. The top priority is to have a good new CEO, who can sustain the type of progress that Mr. Coyne has made, in place as quickly as we can. In two years, if we have successfully implemented much of the BusConnects project, we will have made a lot of progress. It is all down to the number of people travelling on the buses. If we can get more people to travel on the buses with confidence, it will ultimately be successful. That will be a priority strategy.
If I am right, BusConnects is not scheduled to finish until 2030.
Mr. Gary Owens
It will happen progressively.
How much of BusConnects has already been implemented? What percentage can be implemented in the next 24 months? Is it 10% or 30% more?
Mr. Gary Owens
I would need to see the detail before I can give a percentage.
That is fair enough. The implementation of BusConnects and the appointment of a new chief executive are two of Mr. Owens's priorities. Is there anything else in particular?
Mr. Gary Owens
We have to keep competing to be re-awarded the contracts. We need to be in a good position for that in two years. We need quality of service, to have more customers using it and to have a competitive cost base. That is all important for us. When we get around to the new tender, we need to make sure we are in a strong position. Those are my key priorities.
What challenges does Mr. Owens see down the line?
Mr. Gary Owens
In the current environment, I would worry about inflation and the implications of inflation when trying to provide services to consumers, while having 3,600 staff. That is a big issue for every business now. That is the number one risk, which we need to manage carefully. We need to make sure that we remain cost competitive in a high inflationary environment.
I have seen stuff on Twitter lately about the real time passenger information, RTPI, system. I have also experienced it myself. A bus was coming and then it was not coming. I looked down at my phone, then after the system told me the bus was 16 minutes away, it flew past. That happened again, but I was much more conscious the second time. I was looking out for the bus that was not coming and it arrived. Is Mr. Owens familiar with challenges with RTPI? It seems to be less reliable now than previously.
Mr. Gary Owens
We had a bug which I am told is fixed. It resulted in that type of experience. I think it is fixed. I will get more information and be able to dig into and understand that when I am appointed. Mr. Coyne briefed me about a bug on the system this week.
This is very recent. It happened to me the Friday before last and the Sunday before that.
Mr. Gary Owens
I was told it was fixed in the last week.
I wish Mr. Owens well. We do not have as much say as people might think. We can bring Mr. Owens in to have a chat with him, but I do not think we have ever said no. I wish Mr. Owens well on the journey, if he will pardon the pun, with Dublin Bus. It is an important provider of public transport systems. I did not grow up too far away from Mr. Owens, in Dún Laoghaire. It is fair to say that the Dublin Bus product on offer now is far superior to the old CIÉ product that I had when growing up and going to school. The quality of the buses and of the services is pretty good, most of the time. There are blips, which I have taken up with Mr. Coyne and others in the organisation. I wish Mr. Owens well in his term as chairman, subject to him actually taking the position. Hopefully we will see him back here shortly to report on progress in BusConnects and how he is managing the challenges of operating the system across the city.
I welcome Mr. Owens. I am sorry that he was here, then we were gone and now we are back. That is the nature of committees. I am deeply impressed to hear that he was educated on Eblana Avenue. I spent 25 years right next door to him in the Senior College Dún Laoghaire, which later had classrooms on Eblana Avenue. There has been some change to the buildings in that sector. I have to put this on the record and it is nothing to do with Mr. Owens at all. Bringing him in here to make a submission to the committee is a waste of time, when all we can do is thank him for coming. We have no jurisdiction or say as to whether he is a good or a bad chairman. His curriculum vitae is impeccable. The only thing I would say is that during the Covid-19 pandemic, his members served the State really well. They turned up for work every day and drove around the city, making sure that people got to their workplaces, knowing all the time that they themselves were in danger of picking up whichever strain of Covid-19 was prevalent. Dublin Bus has a tremendous workforce, running the transport system in Dublin. As he takes over as chairman, I ask him to embrace that type of commitment. It is not often that one sees it in public service, but they pushed themselves way beyond what is required of any public servant at a time of an emergency.
I do not have anything else to say to Mr. Owens other than to wish him all the best as he moves into a challenging time, with the green agenda and so on. I thank him for coming here. I hope the Chairman takes notes on my negative comments about wasting Mr. Owens's time and our time.
Mr. Gary Owens
I acknowledge what the Senator said about the staff. They did a fantastic job during that period. I thank him for recognising that.
I duly note the remarks from Senator Craughwell, which are very consistent. It is a subject we have discussed more broadly as a committee. I get the train up from Limerick a lot so I sometimes use Dublin Bus, although not always, getting from Heuston Station to Kildare Street. It is a very good service, very punctual and very easy to use.
Why would someone from Mr. Owens's background go for a job as chair of the board of a semi-State body like Dublin Bus? What does he see the role of a chair for such a State body being? How would he distinguish between himself as chair, the board and the CEO? What will he be looking for in a new CEO?
On the green agenda, Mr. Owens referred in his presentation to a more sustainable Dublin. He wants to be carbon-neutral with zero emissions by 2050 and to expand Dublin Bus's hybrid electric fleet, which now stands at 213. Has he had an opportunity to get an update on that? What stamp would Mr. Owens put on the board? The chair has a pivotal role. I would like to hear Mr. Owens's thoughts on what he thinks the chair should do.
Mr. Gary Owens
The first question was why I would be interested in this role. I have worked in the private sector all my life. I have enjoyed working in both the disability sector and the sport sector. I wanted to put something back in and I wanted to have some sort of semi-State role that would keep me informed, keep a good network going and allow me to put something back in after all the experience I have had on the private side. Dublin Bus appeals to me because I think it will be pivotal in the city. Having a very vibrant Dublin Bus will be important in getting the city going again post Covid.
The greater Dublin transportation strategy is about to be published. We had a meeting about that recently.
Mr. Gary Owens
I am impressed with the strategy that has been adopted, including BusConnects. I believe in the sustainable agenda so I feel I can contribute something there. I have chaired loads of committees and boards in the private sector. There are three fundamental things in this area. First, the strategy has to be right. Second, there must be as much intelligent input into the strategy as possible, with good data analytics, good research and good competency around the table. Third, one needs to set ambitious strategies. I have always wanted to be part of an ambitious strategy and I think this one is.
As part of the role as chairperson, it is important to have a good, open and transparent relationship with both the directors and the CEO. That is an important relationship. The most important thing is the appointment of the CEO. Ray Coyne has done an excellent job. He has a brilliant track record and everybody I have met has been hugely complimentary of him. The committee has heard that here today. I need to find somebody who is as good as him. I would have loved to retain him but he is beyond the seven-year term. I have been very impressed with the board members. They are very experienced people and they have the same ambition we all have. When we get to the next award tender, we want Dublin Bus to be in a very strong competitive position. We want a lot more customers using the facility. We want to implement the strategy we have agreed with the NTA and we all want to be proud that we have delivered it. That is what I would hope to achieve as chair for the next five years. I want to be part of it because I am a Dub. I believe the city can be much more vibrant without cars, or with fewer cars, and the only way to do that is to have an integrated transport system that involves buses, bikes and walking. I am fully committed to that and I believe in it.
Would it be too harsh to ask if Mr. Owens is anti-car?
Mr. Gary Owens
I have a car, so I am not anti-car. I have an electric bike and a Leap card and I travel on the bus. I only use the car when I need to.
Has Mr. Owens had a chance to look at the matter of Dublin Bus getting to its target of zero carbon emissions by 2050?
Mr. Gary Owens
The targets are laid out and both Government and NTA policies are pretty clear on them. We have to deliver our commitment to that and we have agreed the steps all the way up to 2050. Electrification of buses and the infrastructure to support that is a key part of it. To be fair, we have the capital to deliver this. It is in the programme. It is up to us. We are the executors of the Government policy and the NTA policy, which are very committed to making sure we achieve those objectives.
At the end of Mr. Owens's five-year term, what would the landscape of Dublin Bus be, in terms of infrastructure in Dublin itself? Let us say ten years, because a lot of the policies Mr. Owens will be looking to implement at board level would probably not come to fruition until a couple of years later. What is Mr. Owens's vision for the landscape of the geographical area Dublin Bus covers?
Mr. Gary Owens
If it was perfect, in ten years' time we would have successfully implemented our strategic plan and the commitments we have made to the NTA and we would have implemented Government policy. That would look like fewer cars, if any-----
Does Mr. Owens see Dublin city as being car-free? Is it moving in that direction?
Mr. Gary Owens
Personally, I think it could be. It would help create a vibrant city. A very good integrated transport system with buses, bikes and people walking can help achieve that.
Why do you say that?
Mr. Gary Owens
The evidence is there with regard to emissions from cars. Converting all buses, or a lot of them, to electric buses is one of the key inputs to delivering the sustainable project. If that is not done, the project will not be delivered.
Does Mr. Owens see us moving in the direction of park-and-ride facilities on the outskirts of the city and people within the city using public transport?
Mr. Gary Owens
If we can deliver and create the type of public transport system we want, with quality and frequency of service, then yes.
How long will that take?
Mr. Gary Owens
I do not know. I need to see and understand the detail of what the steps are. We have a sustainable project all the way to 2050 and that is a long time. We have clear objectives up to 2030 and we have made commitments to the NTA and the Government that we will deliver on those objectives. My job as chair is to make sure we do that.
I do not think any other members wish to come in. We will write to the Minister to say we have met Mr. Owens. We wish him well in his role. We have had meetings on the greater Dublin transport strategy and we will follow up that engagement, so we will probably be engaging again with Dublin Bus. I thank Mr. Owens and his colleague for attending today's meeting and engaging with the committee.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 May 2022.