Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport debate

Irish Rail, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus: Chairpersons Designate

Chairman

This meeting is an engagement with the chairpersons designate of three of the country's largest public transport providers. I welcome Mr. Frank Allen, chairperson designate of Irish Rail, Mr. Ultan Courtney, chairperson designate of Dublin Bus and Mr. Aidan Murphy, chairperson designate of Bus Éireann. They are all very welcome.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

If the members of the committee are agreeable, we will take all three presentations together and follow them with questions to the chairpersons designate. I propose to take the presentations in the following order: Mr. Frank Allen, Mr. Ultan Courtney and Mr. Aidan Murphy. I call Mr. Frank Allen, chairperson designate of Iarnród Éireann, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Frank Allen

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation. I am pleased to be here this morning having been nominated by the Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, to serve as the chairperson of Iarnród Éireann. My professional background is in infrastructure finance. I studied at University College Cork and at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I worked for many years at the World Bank for the International Finance Corporation financing infrastructure in developing and transitioning economies. Afterwards, I returned to Ireland and worked in infrastructure finance for KBC Bank at the Irish Financial Services Centre, IFSC. In 2002, when the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, was established to take responsibility for Luas and other projects, I was appointed as its first chief executive. During my ten years there, we launched Luas and extended it to the docklands, Cherrywood and Citywest, and we worked on other projects such as developing the leap card system. Since leaving the RPA in 2012, I have continued to work mostly in infrastructure finance, advising a range of clients internationally and in Ireland. I do much work in Asia, including in Vietnam and Indonesia, and in Jordan dealing with problems of urban congestion and particularly how mobilising the private sector to invest in and operate public transport can address infrastructure gaps there.

I have worked on projects in renewable energy and sustainability in Ireland. I chair the board of Depaul Ireland, which is a homeless agency.

In 2013, the then Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, invited me to join the board of Iarnród Éireann. I was very pleased to do that and it has been a great privilege to be on that very committed and dedicated board. The Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, reappointed me to the board last year and I have been chair of the audit and risk group. It has been a privilege to work with Mr. Phil Gaffney, who was an outstanding chairman and retired in July. That brings me here.

Iarnród Éireann plays a critical role in providing mobility in urban areas in Ireland and in offering an attractive alternative to private cars on intercity routes. Passenger numbers in 2017 will reach approximately 45 million, which is a record level. We are very pleased with that. As the economy has recovered and there has been more congestion on major routes, we are pleased that people are availing of the option to use public transport. Iarnród Éireann provides a very safe and comfortable service which we are very pleased to be able to provide. Iarnród Éireann's safety record is exceptionally high by international standards and that is paramount in everything the company does.

I believe that, in the future, railways will play an even more critical role in mobility as we move to a low-carbon economy. That is particularly the case for electrified transport in the greater Dublin area. Apart from that, Iarnród Éireann can get people out of cars and on to public transport in large numbers and it is the job of the board to ensure that we have the infrastructure, resources and skills to meet that growing need.

While I have that very positive message this morning, we are concerned about aspects of the infrastructure. During the recession, maintenance was deferred because of a shortage of money. That deferral of maintenance does not compromise safety but it results in temporary speed restrictions in some places and in the future we may struggle to provide the same quality of service to a growing number of passengers. That is a major concern for us. It would be bad news for us if we lost competitiveness in journey times, as well as being bad news for congestion and for how we, as a society, would meet our commitments on sustainability and climate change. The scale of the problem with deferred maintenance has been recognised. The National Transport Authority, with input from Iarnród Éireann, provided a rail review which was published last year. That rail review indicated that, because of the deferred maintenance during the recession, we would really need to spend another increment of €103 million per annum for five years to catch up with the deferred maintenance and make sure that we can continue to provide competitive journey times, restore the balance sheet of the company and are ready for future growth. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport recognises the issue and has committed to support us in doing that, subject to wider financial constraints. It is a big challenge for us to make sure that we continue to do that, with continuing support from the Department, which has been very welcome and meaningful. We need to recover the state of the assets to a level that can provide high quality transport.

The priorities Iarnród Éireann should have over the next years are, first, to make sure that we continue to provide an excellent service for the 45 million current passengers. Second, the railway infrastructure, an amazing resource, can be used to increase capacity. It will require investment, but we can and need to get more people on existing railways. We should plan for additional rail infrastructure in areas of high population density. Unless we provide high capacity, high quality mass transit, we have no way to meet our sustainability objectives as a community. All of that will require the continued commitment of management, the board, and the staff. Those 3,800 people have shown tremendous dedication to maintaining this railway over a period of under-investment. We need to make sure that we continue to provide an outstanding service for the travelling public.

I should refer to the industrial relations challenges facing Iarnród Éireann. Iarnród Éireann's management recognises and acknowledges that there is an expectation of salary increases among the workforce and, in light of that, management put forward proposals to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, for salary increases in the context of management and organisational change that takes accounts of our straitened financial circumstances. I hope that we can engage with workers and trade union representatives, the good offices of the WRC and the Labour Court, which we expect to have a role in this, to find a way to acknowledge and respond to workers' expectations of a salary increase after a certain period, since there has not been one, while recognising the financial circumstances of the company. I think there is a way to do that and hope that we can get there and avoid unnecessary disruption to the travelling public.

Mr. Ultan Courtney

It is an honour to be nominated for reappointment as chairman to the board of Dublin Bus by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross. I thank the Chairman, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, and the members of the committee for the invitation to appear here today.

I am a native of Dublin and grew up in Artane where I attended Chanel College. I joined Córas Iompair Éireann in 1979 as a bus conductor and qualified as a bus driver in 1985. During my time in CIE I became a full-time student in Trinity College Dublin and graduated in 1987 with a BA (Hons) in economics. In my final year I studied transport and labour economics and in my undergraduate thesis I examined how economically efficient Dublin Bus was against a backdrop of other bus operators. In 1987 I left CIE and joined the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, starting my journey into a career in human resources and industrial relations. Having held a number of different senior management positions throughout my career, I was group HR director in C&C Group plc for seven years until 2008. For the past ten years, I have been managing director of Courtney HR which provides management consultancy services to many leading Irish companies. Throughout my career, I have received postgraduate diploma awards in judicial skills and decision making, corporate legal governance, employment law, arbitration, and also strategic management and executive coaching from Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT. I am a qualified mediator and arbitrator, master trainer and executive coach. I am currently a member of the Public Service Pay Commission, Central Bank disputes resolution tribunal and a lay member of the client and complaints committee of the Law Society of Ireland. I am a former board member of the Equality Authority and a current member of the Institute of Directors in Ireland.

The vision for Dublin Bus is to provide a transport service where people feel safe, connected and part of sustainable community life in Dublin. Over the next three years, Dublin Bus will continue to operate in an environment where economic and social development will have a significant impact on the role of buses in public transport. The priority is to meet that customer demand and provide services that the city needs. The company’s strategic imperatives are to ensure a safe, reliable and efficient service for our customers, to continue to exceed contract performance objectives, to continue the enhancement of our customers' experience, to increase urban bus usage in the Dublin area and to further strengthen the Dublin Bus brand and public transport. It is evident that an efficient public transport system is key to delivering positive economic and social development in Dublin, and, in my recent tenure as chairman, this has been a key objective that the company has continued to make significant strides to achieve.

In 2014, Dublin Bus signed a new public service obligation, PSO, contract for a period of five years. The contract performance criteria are independently audited and Dublin Bus continues its strong record in exceeding its targets. Since 2014, the organisation has been able to grow its business in a sustainable, efficient and customer-focused manner. In 2017, Dublin Bus is on target to carry over 130 million customers, an increase of over 11 million in the past three years, while generating over €300 million in revenue, an increase of €24 million since 2014.

Dublin Bus has been successful in retaining its existing customers while attracting new customers to our service.

While Dublin commuters have a number of travel options available to them every day, at present 62% of all public transport trips into Dublin city centre are completed by bus. Our aim is to continue to make the bus the most attractive option by providing a clean, modern fleet, services that provide value for money, and innovative developments in technology. Dublin Bus services now include real-time passenger information and passenger displays at stops. The on-board experience provides accessible vehicles with on-bus real-time passenger announcements and free Wi-Fi access. The roll-out is taking place of USB charging points on our buses and both wheelchair user and buggy spaces for customers. Our daily aim is punctuality and reliability.

Dublin Bus has publicly stated that its employees are the greatest company asset, providing an essential economic service to the city. One of the company’s highest priorities is to develop its employees and continue to provide opportunities to grow and develop within the workplace. Dublin Bus is committed to equality and diversity and therefore ensures that all policies are developed to reflect the society in which it operates. This is evident in all employee policies, particularly the recently launched gender transition policy which is both progressive and inclusive. Recruitment has been a significant focus for the past few years, and many developments in recruitment policies have led to an increase in employment within the company, especially in respect of women. Dublin Bus continued to show its commitment to equality with the graduation of its first ever all-women class of drivers in 2016.

Operating in a fully competitive environment, Dublin Bus is confident in its future and its capacity to grow. While many challenges lie ahead, the company can be confident in its ability to tackle each one to ensure it remains an integral part of public transport provision in Dublin. However, on the journey to that future, the bus provides a viable option to keep the city moving, its economy growing and its citizens working.

Congestion remains a problem in Dublin, particularly in the morning and evening peak commuting times. Many users are competing for the limited road space available, including private transport in the form of cars and motorcycles, public transport, cyclists, taxis, delivery vehicles and pedestrians. As economic growth returns, congestion levels are increasing. Congestion limits a city’s ability to achieve its full potential in the economic, environmental, social and cultural areas. Dublin is positioning itself as a modern European capital, and a congested city does not fit with this outlook. Congestion is a key challenge for the economy and one which the bus can alleviate in the short term.

As chairman of Dublin Bus, I am pleased that the performance of the bus in delivering economic growth in Dublin has been recognised through the BusConnects proposals. Seeking investment of €1 billion in bus transport in Dublin, BusConnects recognises the strategic benefits for the country of investment in urban buses. The company is fully engaged with this project and is committed to promoting and protecting the interests of our customers. We want to ensure that all parts of Dublin city and the greater Dublin area enjoy a bus network that is reliable, efficient and accessible to all. An excellent bus network is clearly of strategic importance to the city, and Dublin Bus has worked and will continue to work closely with all involved in this project to future-proof the city’s bus network for the benefit of our customers and for a successful Dublin.

The Dublin Bus brand is our identifying mark for customers and a symbol of unity for our employees. It is a major component of Dublin Bus and an iconic brand, widely recognised throughout the greater Dublin area, GDA, and further afield. The brand is a notable part of the GDA and illustrates the unified mission of Dublin Bus of providing an effective public service with an enhanced customer experience that drives its purpose as a brand and an organisation. The company’s most recent independent tracker research illustrates that satisfaction with Dublin Bus as a brand is increasing continually among its customers. The continued growth in customer satisfaction and journeys is testament to the quality of the brand. The Dublin Bus brand unites employees internally under a common goal of serving our customers and underpins the company’s corporate social responsibility activity and community initiatives.

Over the past three years, Dublin Bus has seen a continual and significant investment in the development of its fleet which ensures that it remains modern, reliable and environmentally friendly, and enables Dublin Bus to play a significant role in combating climate change. A more modern fleet has led to a saving of 190,000 tonnes of CO2 and 76 million litres of fuel over three years. The future fleet of Dublin Bus will move toward environmentally friendly engines. Dublin Bus has a long history of trialling more efficient vehicles and will work with the National Transport Authority in assisting in the delivery of environmentally friendly vehicles.

Dublin Bus will be an integral part of an integrated transport network providing a safe, reliable, efficient and continuous service to the people of Dublin. Through ongoing service development and investment, Dublin Bus will continue to provide reliable services, quality customer experience and innovative developments to our customers while also proving its status as leader within the field of public transport. I look forward to making my contribution to the company by providing strategic support, supervision and guidance over the next three years.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Courtney. I call Mr. Aidan Murphy, chairperson designate of Bus Éireann, to make his statement.

Mr. Aidan Murphy

I thank the Chairman and committee for the invitation to address them today. I have served on the board of Bus Éireann since April 2013 and it is my great privilege to have been appointed chairman since July 2014. I am very pleased to have been nominated as chairman designate for another term. During my tenure, Bus Éireann has experienced profound challenges which have required major financial, cultural and structural reforms, all of which are now being embraced throughout the organisation which this year celebrates 30 years of service to the cities, towns and villages throughout Ireland.

Over the past year, the financial difficulties facing the company have been well documented and underpin our steadfast commitment to ensure the survival and future sustainability of Bus Éireann. In 2016, our accounts showed that the overall financial deficit had increased to €9.5 million from €6 million in the previous year, and this trend triggered a comprehensive review of all aspects of the business. The original focus was to deliver a sustainable plan for our Expressway commercial services which, as the committee members will know, do not receive any State subvention. The combination of an increase in competition on the motorways with a high cost base brought about an unsustainable position which culminated in the directors appointing external advisers, Grant Thornton, to undertake a full appraisal of the robustness of management's business plan. When the findings were presented to the board in December 2016, an urgent fresh review of the business was requested when it became evident that the challenges facing the company were not only confined to Expressway but, rather, were more far-reaching.

The review confirmed that prevailing work practices, structures, business processes and some routes at Bus Éireann were simply not sustainable and required urgent intervention to ensure the future viability of the company as a whole. A new management team was appointed by the board of directors to lead a new change plan, and communications with staff began in January of this year. Unfortunately, when efforts at constructive engagement to address change failed, the matter was mediated through the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission, which ultimately referred the matter to the Labour Court, which issued a recommendation. This was accepted by a majority of staff by ballot in May of this year. It is regrettable that a three-week strike took place during this process and I apologise again to our customers who were seriously discommoded during that period.

The Labour Court recommendation is the new cornerstone of our future and is currently being implemented. It includes more than 60 work practice change initiatives and 240 staff reductions, which is equivalent to 10% of the current workforce. Successful implementation of all the recommendations, which also include significant non-payroll cost savings, will deliver savings of approximately €20 million to Bus Éireann in a full financial year. This will not only restore the solvency and viability of the company but, crucially, set the foundation to ensure the business is capable of competing in an increasingly competitive market not only to hold existing business but also to win new business in the future.

On behalf of the board, I acknowledge the substantial commitment of our staff at this time to the survival plan which in itself has implications for many individuals throughout the organisation. I encourage our management and staff to continue to work together to ensure that the Labour Court recommendation is fully implemented. The hallmark of a successful implementation will be a business which is more efficient and more competitive. These two qualities will, I believe, not only safeguard the future of Bus Éireann but also open a gateway full of potential and possibilities. There is a new dynamic within the company and we can build a viable company that will continue to offer a first-class service to our customers. In the context of the advent of the bus market opening, the EU requirement for tendering of routes and continued competitive pressure on inter-regional corridors, it behoves us to deliver a plan which ensures the company is better positioned to compete effectively in this new era.

While we continue to expand our network and offer greater frequency and connectivity on our services to improve our product, we need steady State investment to underpin our growth ambitions, and in this regard I am pleased to advise the committee that we are positively engaging with our stakeholders on essential investment in our fleet, reasonable profit on our public service obligation, PSO, services, together with addressing the current underfunding of the free transport scheme, particularly on our Expressway services. I believe these commitments will be clarified over the coming weeks.

For my part, I want Bus Éireann to be recognised as progressive and to succeed by providing an excellent service to the public. We are the only national operator in Ireland with in excess of 250 routes and more than 50 years of experience in delivering a school transport scheme which is unparalleled in its scale throughout Europe. I assure the committee that the board will ensure that in our quest for cost savings, our position on safety will never be compromised. In this regard, I am pleased that our swift decision to suspend all services in the best interests of all of our customers and staff was recognised recently when Hurricane Ophelia visited our shores.

The future of public transport in Ireland is changing and Bus Éireann is committed to being part of that change. The establishment of the National Transport Authority, NTA, has changed the dynamic and many of the functions previously undertaken by the company are now the responsibility of the NTA. For our part, we recognise the fundamental change required by the company to become a high-quality service provider which can compete in the market, offer an unrivalled service to customers and provide real value for money to the State.

There is some ill-informed comment about the subvention to Bus Éireann. To be clear, we operate Expressway on a purely commercial basis with no subvention from the State. We operate city and stage carriage services under a PSO payment because they are not viable commercial services but the State judges them to be in the public interest. We also operate school transport services for the Department of Education and Skills. In this regard, we are no different from bus companies in the UK and Europe, except that we are owned by the State. However, our commitment is to provide value for money to the State and, as I said earlier, we now have the mechanism to achieve our objectives.

The board and management remain committed to delivering the best transport system possible in an efficient and effective manner given the funds available. Our commitment to delivering on the requirements of our stakeholders, such as the National Transport Authority, NTA, and the Department of Education and Skills, which we recognise are intensely customer-centric and efficiency-focused, has never been stronger. I look forward to working with the Minister, the Department, the NTA, CIE and the Bus Éireann board and management team in growing public transport in a sustainable, safe and efficient manner and to putting in place an investment framework matched to a new cost structure that can and will secure the long-term viability of Bus Éireann.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Murphy for his opening statement. I will now open the floor to questions from members of the committee, following which non-members will have an opportunity to put questions.

Senator Frank Feighan

I welcome the witnesses. I come from Boyle in County Roscommon. When in Dublin I use public transport to get to work. Public transport has evolved down through the years. I admire the manner in which the company has embraced modern technology in terms of the introduction of the Leap card and Google maps application for public transport, which I use when I visit the cities.

My first question is for Mr. Allen of Irish Rail. The journey time from Sligo to Dublin, which is 179 kilometres, is three hours. The journey time from Cork to Dublin, which is 267 kilometres, is two and a half hours and from Galway to Dublin, which is 209 kilometres, is two hours and ten minutes. I do not understand why it takes longer to get from Sligo to Dublin than it does to get from Cork or Galway to Dublin given Cork and Galway are further away from Dublin. I live in Boyle in Roscommon and my partner lives in Castlerea, which is further west, yet the train journey from there to Dublin is quicker. This issue needs to be addressed.

In regard to parking charges at train stations, while there is paid parking available at Boyle station, there are virtually no paid parking facilities anywhere else on that route. Paid parking should be available in towns with a population of more than 10,000. Recently, people travelling by train from Roscommon to a football match were unable to prepay for parking because of a problem with the prepay text service such that when they returned, their cars were clamped. Irish Rail did address the issue. I appreciate that the company has to make money but the policy of parking charges at small stations should be reviewed.

There is much talk about one Ireland. I previously chaired the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. A high-speed link between Dublin and Belfast would be of huge significance. There is already a high-speed link between Dublin and Cork, although it needs to be quicker. Are there any plans for a high-speed link between Dublin and Belfast? I would welcome Mr. Allen's views on that issue and on the Sligo service.

My next question is for Mr. Murphy. What did he mean by his statement that commitments in regard to the free transport scheme should be clarified over the coming weeks? Bus Éireann is competing with private operators. Three or four years ago an issue arose in regard to the Bus Éireann service on the Sligo to Dublin route which, as a politician, I tried to resolve. Bus Éireann was operating six services each way per day on that route and we sought to have three of those services serve Roosky and Dromod. It was a difficult issue to try to resolve. Mr. Murphy said that the Expressway service operates on a purely commercial basis. Is there any way around that? As a politician, I will never again get involved in this issue because I felt it was used as a political football. Bus Éireann was not able to clarify the situation at that time. Perhaps Mr. Murphy can do so today.

On the NTA, I believe it has done great work in filling in the gaps that Bus Éireann cannot fill. In Mr. Murphy's view, taking into account what has been already done, what more can be done?

Mr. Frank Allen

I thank Senator Feighan for his questions. The Sligo line is a critically important line on which passenger numbers are good. I agree with the Senator that unless we provide competitive journey times, people will return to using their cars. I was not aware that the journey time from Sligo to Dublin is three hours. In regard to journey times, in almost all cases the issue is one of fixed infrastructure. The work we are doing in terms of the rail review involves ensuring the maintenance and upgrade of fixed infrastructure, including cleaning the ballasts and removing any temporary speed restrictions in place and, closer to the cities, ensuring that the regulation of journeys is such that they are not conflicting with one another. I do not know why the Sligo-Dublin journey takes three hours but I agree that three hours is a long time. For it to be competitive with private transport, I would need to examine what changes could be made to the fixed infrastructure to ensure provision of a more competitive journey time. I do not disagree with the point made by the Senator.

I do not have an answer to it here and now, but we will look into the matter and get back to the Senator about it to see what can be done.

Parking charges at railway stations are an annoyance for some people, and I apologise that an issue arose with clamping and if there was a problem with the texting system. However, in our financial circumstances, small though the payment is to park a car at a railway station, we need to try to maintain whatever sources of income we can as long as that charging remains fair. When I see sometimes what I pay for commercial parking in many other places, I believe the charges at railway stations are quite moderate and also discourage people from leaving their cars there over extended periods. If the Senator is asking me whether we could come up with a policy not to charge at small railway stations, it would be difficult, even though the loss would not be enormous. It would be difficult to defend not charging at some stations while charging at others, so-----

Senator Frank Feighan

Iarnród Éireann already does that. On the Sligo line it charges for parking at Sligo, Boyle and other stations and does not charge at Castlerea or Roscommon. It is a small point, but-----

Mr. Frank Allen

I understand. It can be an annoyance, and we should do whatever is possible to get people out of the car and into the train for the journey to Dublin rather than putting in place obstacles to that. I did not know that at some stations on that line there are parking charges while at others there are none.

Regarding shortening the journey time from Dublin to Belfast, I do not think we will ever have a high-speed link between the two cities, but we do need to shorten the journey time, and a number of measures are being taken in this regard. I return to the point of ensuring that any delayed maintenance of the fixed infrastructure is recovered. Furthermore, coming closer to Dublin, because the northern line and the DART service share a track, we need to improve the regulation of those services and move to a ten-minute frequency on the DART, which would be in the best interests of the passengers. They would not have to know what the schedule is. They would just know that the DART comes every ten minutes. Doing this, particularly in the off-peak period, will allow much better regulation of trains coming in from Belfast. Frequently, when I am on that line - I do use it - the delays are often in the last section of the journey, as one comes into Dublin, rather than further north. I do not think the issue arises as much further north. We have plans in this regard and we hope to move ahead with them in 2018. They are part of the discussions at present with trade union representatives to move to that ten-minute frequency. If we move to a ten-minute frequency, ensure better regulation close to the city, reduce delays there and then recover any delayed maintenance on the line overall, journey times will be shortened. This is a priority for us because our passenger numbers on that line are very good and are growing and we want to continue to provide an excellent service on it.

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Regarding the free transport scheme, the difficulty is that the funding that came from the Department did not cover the number of passengers carried on Expressway in particular. There have been extensive discussions recently in this regard, and the budgets are being clarified. The clarification arising from these discussions of the budget amount that will come to Bus Éireann for free travel in 2018 will, I hope, be a significant improvement on the previous situation.

I am not quite clear on the point the Senator made about Expressway. Our Expressway service is purely commercial and no subvention from the State is involved either in day-to-day running or capital investment. With significant competition on all the routes we service, we must try to manage that competition as best we can while continuing to service the intermediate towns as best as possible. There is a dilemma there because passengers at the end of the line want almost a non-stop service. If someone gets on at Galway, for example, he or she will want a non-stop service to Dublin and will get frustrated if it calls at Athlone or Mullingar on the way. However, the reality is that we must service customers in those towns as well, so there is an issue there that is very difficult to manage.

Coming back to the Senator's third point about the NTA, we have worked very closely with the NTA where new licences have been granted to us for the bypassing of certain towns because of the number of passengers using the service. The NTA then infills with Local Link and so on in order that there is a match-up between bringing passengers locally to a point at which we can then pick them up on our Expressway service. A little more work probably needs to be done on this, and the NTA itself would recognise that, but I think it has substantially improved. Certainly, on any occasion where we are bypassing a town, we have substantial negotiation and discussion with the NTA on the matter. In general, we have forged a good relationship with the NTA in dealing with all the issues around ensuring seamless transport for Ireland. Its brief is to provide that interlinked transport using different service providers. This is the point I was making in my address. In the past, Bus Éireann was charged with responsibility for providing public transport as a mission. That is now the remit of the National Transport Authority. We are now a service provider and we will work to provide that level of best-quality service in conjunction with the plans that the NTA has to serve the country as a whole.

Chairman

I do not think there were any questions to Dublin Bus in Senator Feighan's contribution, so I call Deputy Troy.

Deputy Robert Troy

I welcome our three guests. I apologise for having kept them waiting when we were in private session. All the witnesses come to their respective positions with different qualifications and experience, some more so than others in so far as transport is concerned, and each is chair of the body he represents in very turbulent times, both currently and in the past. I read an article written by a current Minister at a time when he was not a Minister. He said:

On December 5, Minister Brendan Howlin announced that he was cutting the state subsidy to CIE ...

Not a bad idea as CIE has in recent years been exposed as a swamp of waste and skulduggery.

Quangos like CIE and its three subsidiaries - Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann - are in dire need of efficiencies. There is plenty of fat hidden in the darker corners of these bloated bodies.

That is the current Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport describing each of the witnesses' respective bodies. Has that "plenty of fat hidden in the darker corners of these ... bodies" been identified and eradicated, and are the witnesses sure that each of their bodies is operating to the greatest efficiencies possible? In that context, are there any vacancies on any of their respective boards? Do they feel there are particular competencies which may be missing from their respective boards?

Regarding Dublin Bus, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that while Mr. Courtney has vast experience in different areas, his experience in the transport sector is quite limited. How long has he been a board member of Dublin Bus? He might come back to me with a response to that. Specifically, when did he take up the position of chairperson? Last year we identified the fact that despite a significant increase in revenues in Dublin Bus, there was a decrease in profit. Why is that?

Mr. Murphy has been chairperson of Bus Éireann for a number of years and was recently reappointed. Last year was a particularly turbulent one for Bus Éireann, and the people who suffered the most were the passengers who rely on Bus Éireann to go about their daily work or to college or whatever else.

A report was presented in 2015 which clearly outlined the serious issues facing Bus Éireann. Did the chief executive officer, CEO, at that time make that report available to Mr. Murphy and his board? Did they discuss that report and what actions did they take as a consequence of having been made aware of it? It was the total and utter inaction by the board and the executive of Bus Éireann for a protracted period - effectively, they buried their heads in the sand - that led to the industrial action and the three weeks of widespread chaos in Bus Éireann last year. I would welcome Mr. Murphy's opinion on that.

Regarding Irish Rail, Mr. Allen said the job of the board is to make sure that Irish Rail is adequately resourced. He also went on to say that because of the lack of resources afforded to Irish Rail, it now needs €103 million per annum for the next five years. How does he intend to fund that? He said that Irish Rail is in danger of losing competitiveness but I would say it has lost it. My colleague cited the example of the Sligo line, which serves my home town of Mullingar. It is quicker for me to drive to Leinster House in the morning than to take the train, despite the current major traffic disruption and congestion. If Mr. Allen is serious about Irish Rail being a competitive choice for passengers, we need to see large-scale investment in the rail network to ensure the tracks are fit for purpose, that reduced speed limits do not have to be introduced and that carriages are brought up to standard and fit for purpose. If the speed of the rail services is not increased, we will not be able to attract people to use those services. The reason I drive to Leinster House is that I have free parking. The reason most people take the train is not related to the speed of getting into Dublin but due to the high cost of parking in the city.

Mr. Allen touched on the strike. I am glad he did so at the end of his contribution as I was worried he might not do so. Is it true that the CEO intervened at a crucial stage in a negative way which derailed the talks, as a consequence of which we are again going to have industrial action and the people who will suffer will be travelling public who rely on these services day in, day out?

I got correspondence, as I am sure did my colleagues, from an anonymous source - I want to put that on the record and Mr. Allen can treat it being anonymous however he wants - to the effect that a company, which had to defer maintenance of its tracks because of limited resources, spent tens of thousands of euro sponsoring a fishing trip to the North of Ireland for senior members of the executive in Irish Rail. Is Mr. Allen aware of that? Does he believe that is an appropriate use of limited resources? He might comment on that.

It will have to be funded from the multi-annual payment to be made to Iarnród Éireann by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

That is the only feasible source of the money. We are at a stage, in October, at which the allocations for 2018 have not been fully clarified or put in writing to us. I am very confident, however, that the engagement we have with the Department is such that there is an understanding of the need. Until such time as there is a letter in the post from the Department stating-----

Deputy Robert Troy

The Department got its budget.

Mr. Frank Allen

Indeed, but it takes a little time for the total budget to cascade to the various allocations. I can say with confidence that the matter is being taken seriously. I am hopeful that the money will be allocated but until such time as there is a letter in the post indicating the money available for 2018 and subsequent years, it is very hard for me to answer the Deputy's specific question in the affirmative. I can go so far as to say we have been informed. I am confident, however; that is the best way to put it. If there were a problem, I would take the opportunity now to say the matter was not being taken seriously, but I am not saying that in any way. I am confident it is being dealt with very seriously.

That is no problem at all. Absolutely.

I was asked whether Iarnród Éireann is a member of IBEC and it is. What does Iarnród Éireann get from it? As for many employers, there is a resource provided in terms of updating company law and company procedures. I do not know the IBEC fee but I can find out and get back to the committee on it.

Chairman

Do Mr. Courtney or Mr. Murphy wish to comment on the questions?

Mr. Ultan Courtney

With regard to efficiency in the organisation and waste, we are equally of the view that the efficient running of the company is very important. The use of public funds is extremely important to Dublin Bus. Like the committee, we are watching this very closely. The function of a board is to make sure there is no waste of public funds in regard to any moneys given to the company. We have a very tight view on that. If anybody, at any time, brought it to my attention or that of the board that there was any waste or a belief that there was a waste of money, we would investigate it, be it in respect of corporate entertainment or anything else. The funds are hard to get but when we get them we try to mind them as best we can. In my tenure, I have had no knowledge of anything untoward in that regard. We would certainly investigate immediately. Ours is not the kind of company whose officials go away on corporate junkets. We do not do that; we try to run a very tight, clean ship because management must answer to the board and the board must answer to the Dáil. That is the way it is and the way it should be.

With regard to vacancies on the board, there is one vacancy currently. We would like to have it filled. We have a broad range of skills. We have a very good and very balanced board. The system that was introduced recently has worked very well for us and we are looking for another person.

We have also introduced a board succession plan to allow us to identify the needs for future boards and when we can fill them. It will allow us to make a universal case to the Department and the Minister on when those positions should be filled and what skills are needed.

I have been chairman of Dublin Bus for the past three years. I am here looking for renomination. I do not know what further questions the committee wants me to answer about experience or qualifications in that regard.

Dublin Bus is a good company and is generating much revenue. However, we have the age-old problem with funding which we have to take to the Government and the Department. We try to make the company as efficient as possible and make it as hard as possible for the Dáil not to give us funds to run a service. We are in a growing economy. It is important public transport is seen as a strategic part of the State's infrastructure and is funded on that basis.

One can talk about one year and when it is up or down relative to other years. However, as Mr. Frank Allen said, one really needs to talk about multi-annual funding. When we do a contract with the State on public service obligations, it should be over five years. We would then have a good idea where we stand, rather than doing it every year. Over the past six months, we have been discussing funding with the NTA. Anybody who has run a business will understand how difficult that is. We understand these are the rules but we will always make the argument that multi-annual contracts would make a difference to us, as well as to the State. It would force us to tell the committee what our costs and expenses will be which we can then be held to.

The economy will change and will continue to do so. The challenge for us will be to ensure we can beat congestion and meet demand. The demand is there and people want bus services. We want to be ahead of the curve, not behind it. We will work extremely hard to stay ahead of the curve.

We will hold onto 30 buses this year to put them out on top of the existing buses the NTA will give to us. In that regard, we work closely with the NTA. We might not always agree but we work closely to ensure this service works.

Dublin Bus is a member of IBEC. We reviewed it this year and will review it next year. We review any payment we make to any group to make sure it gives us the service we need. Every last cent has to be accounted for and it has to be value for money for us as a service. The principal point about IBEC is that we get a range of services. We are employers and IBEC is an employer representative organisation. It has a national executive committee of which our managing director is a member. It also has transport committees and is a body of influence and information. We use it as a service. As soon as the service is not appropriate or relevant to us, we will not use it.

Mr. Aidan Murphy

I made the point several times in my presentation that the Bus Éireann board is conscious of value for money to the State and is careful of any expenditure. We do not have corporate entertainment and a strict code is in place for any corporate involvement which we operate. We can certainly provide the committee with details of that.

There is currently one board vacancy. Again, we have a good mix and will certainly have that vacancy filled soon. I have no concerns about the make-up of the board's skill sets in order to manage the company effectively.

With regard to 2015, the genesis of what happened was that the board in 2015 was increasingly concerned about trends in the company's financial position. As a consequence of that, approaching the latter half of 2015, the board asked the chief executive to come to it with proposals because of its concerns where the company might be from a financial perspective. In the latter part of 2015, the board threatened not to pass a budget for 2016, believing it would not be tenable. Reluctantly, on the final analysis, we passed a budget on the basis that by June 2016, the situation would have been resolved. The management, through its chief executive, presented a plan along those lines.

It was becoming clear to the board in 2016, however, that the plan was not being adhered to and it was seriously concerned about that. Despite promises to the effect of changes taking place, they did not happen. That is the genesis of the point I made. In the latter part of 2016, we appointed external advisers to advise us on the business plans that the chief executive and management team had presented. That is the basis on which that happened.

I reject totally that it was the board which was negligent in that regard. I would make the point that the board was conscious of the company's financial position. At all times, it monitored performance to ensure the company was sustainable. That is the basis on which the viability plan in the early part of this year was discussed with our employees. It is regrettable that a three-week strike took place. It was an unnecessary strike in my view. The outcome of the discussions that took place with the trade union representatives could have been achieved without a strike. Unfortunately, the environment was such that the strike took place and there was little we could do about that. At that point in time, if we had continued as we were, we would have been accused of reckless trading. Taking our responsibility as directors under the Companies Act, this was not a position into which we would put ourselves.

Deputy Robert Troy

I asked specifically when Mr. Aidan Murphy was made aware of the report given in January 2015. I agree that in the latter half of last year the board did begin to act and threatened it would not pass the budget or sign off on the company accounts. However, that was almost 24 months from when the initial report carried out by Grant Thornton was presented to the then Minister in 2015. Was the board aware of it in 2015? What action did it take at that stage? It was the lack of action taken for a period that contributed to the cumulative losses building up.

The letter said that Iarnród Éireann had provided some sponsorship for an angling event as part of an international association of railway engineers or something. That is true. The letter stated that it took place, I think, in Enniskillen. That is the case.

Chairman

The problem is that Mr. Allen is putting up the "gone fishing" sign to many of the people who have problems with public transport. I am not being rude. I am very concerned about his comments on the infrastructure but I will take the members as they offer. The issue is the shortage of money and the €5 billion paid to all the companies in the past eight years. The taxpayer is paying for everything. Deputy Troy has made very valuable points.

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

I welcome the three chairmen designate here and wish them well with their portfolios.

Irish Rail removed the ticket checkers on some of the routes in my area. Can the company stand behind that policy? On some trains that led to overcrowding and anti-social behaviour on carriages. There are also people freeloading, taking advantage of not being checked on the routes. Is that policy being reviewed?

On a larger scale, following the break-up of CIE, Irish Rail divided itself into two operations, infrastructure management and railway undertaking. Has this been of benefit to the company? How many people are employed at executive level in each company? Was it necessary to create two tiers of executives again? Does having these two separate operations provide value for money? There is a feeling at the lower levels that this is not delivering what it was intended to deliver. We could do with more drivers. When does Mr. Allen expect the rail review to be published?

Bus Éireann has come through a tumultuous and traumatic time with regard to the strike. I am glad to see that has been resolved. I am not sure whether all are in agreement with the cuts that have been implemented but I hear that management is working on it. One of the big issues was the Expressway routes. I have to reiterate that there is unfair competition when the NTA and the Department talk about a Cork to Dublin route for the private operator. Such an operator can fill his bus in Cork city and go straight to Dublin whereas the Expressway has to, and will I hope continue to, stop off at some of the major towns between Cork and Dublin. That adds to the cost and maybe the time but it is an invaluable service. The concern is that it gets no aid or funding for it even though it is obliged to accept the free travel pass, whereas the private operators are not. That creates unfair competition putting Expressway in jeopardy. Will there be any talks to resolve that discrepancy? Knowing the public transport service, I know there will always be strikes and this will become a thorn in our sides again. What is being done to resolve a problem of competition in future?

With pride in delivering a bus service Mr. Murphy mentioned the school bus runs but every year there are areas where those runs are reformulated at the direction of the Department of Education and Skills and in this case the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan. Nothing has been done about that. Families are in turmoil and have to send their children to different schools because they did not make the first roll for the ticketing system. Does the Department speak to people on the ground? There is no point implementing policy without being practical. Is there any co-ordination between Bus Éireann officials on the ground and the Department? In east Cork historically there was a parish catchment area where pupils went to Fermoy. Now, because of changes in the Department's rules parents are told to send the children over the border to County Waterford. If Mr. Murphy knew anything about the GAA he would know that it is not done to send people from one county to be educated in another county. I am referring to the historic connection. No thought went into these changes.

I will let my colleagues deal with Dublin Bus. My final question is on climate change and related issues. This may be one for Irish Rail.

I remember not so many years ago that when the port of Cork was relocating, its original proposal was refused by An Bord Pleanála. One of the reasons was the lack of a proper rail service. I thought it was extraordinary. Regarding getting many HGVs on the rail tracks, that is fine if one is travelling from the top of Sweden down to Spain where there is very little roll-on, roll-off activity. This country is a small nation. Where is Irish Rail with regard to the movement of heavy goods? Does it see it expanding its activities in that area?

Chairman

The clerk has informed me that there is no time limit on our meeting. We can remain here until 4 p.m. I intend to ask plenty of questions.

Mr. Aidan Murphy

I am pleased to confirm that the Labour Court recommendation is being implemented. Based on a meeting yesterday at the WRC, all the revised rosters will be finalised by next Monday so that is good news. There are over 60 work practice change recommendations involved in the process and they are all being worked on actively and as quickly as possible. There has been very good engagement between management and employee representatives in implementing that change so I am pleased to report that to the Deputy.

I take the point made by the Deputy regarding Expressway routes. It was one of the issues that caused great difficulty for the commerciality of Expressway in that we were committed to providing passage for people on free travel despite the fact that our competitors do not do that, and we will continue to do that.

However, we were not getting the funding from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection to compensate for that. Based on discussions this year, we have made substantial progress in improving that position. The figures will be confirmed in coming weeks. There will be a substantial improvement which we believe will go a considerable way towards helping us to make Expressway a much more competitive and sustainable operation. We are committed to ensuring the Expressway routes provide connectivity into the major provincial towns. Some passengers want to get on a bus in Cork and go all the way to Dublin without stopping in between, but the provincial towns such as Clare and Thurles along the way also need to be serviced. We are committed to providing those services in the best way possible. It is dependent on the patronage of passengers in those towns. In some of the areas where we have indicated the routes are under threat, sometimes there is demand to improve the number of passengers using the service but sometimes there is not and in those environments we must take the decision to discontinue a service in order to make Expressway competitive.

On school buses, we operate purely as a service provider. The Department has its policy guidelines on the number of students we pick up, the routes, the number servicing particular schools and so on. There is good communication, where we feed information from our guys on the ground through to the Department on which it can base its decisions. I do not have the level of detail to comment on individual areas but I take the general point that the Deputy is making and will convey it to the chief executive so that we are communicating as fully as possible with the Department on any local issues that might arise. It is important to preserve the sense of identity in a county or region because that kind of thing has an impact on people in those areas.

Chairman

We will suspend for ten minutes and then take the rest of the questions.

Sitting suspended at 11.32 a.m. and resumed at 11.47 a.m.

Chairman

I call Deputy Imelda Munster.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will begin with questions for Iarnród Éireann. I noted that Mr. Allen's opening statement made no reference to the budget. Given the dire financial circumstances in which Iarnród Éireann finds itself, he did not refer to there being no specific additional capital investment announcement in the budget. The additional public service obligation contribution was 8%, which is a paltry amount in the circumstances.

Has Iarnród Éireann applied any pressure on the Minister in any way? Mr. Allen said that Iarnród Éireann is confident that funding will come. His statement to the committee referred to the rail review but the one thing it flagged was that Iarnród Éireann was in dire financial circumstances to the point where serious safety issues had been raised and it would require €500 million over the next five years. We have just had the budget and the Minister has made no reference to that whatsoever and has given no clear indication regarding additional capital allocation or otherwise. The additional funding for the public service obligation is minimal when one considers the extra work for which it must pay. Mr. Allen seems comfortable that there may or may not be something coming down the road.

It is as if the seriousness of the financial position has not sunk in. What representation has been made to the Minister? How many meetings did the witness have before the budget with the Minister to argue the case for funding? Why has the Minister thus far ignored that call?

The possible industrial action coming down the road is exactly the same as what happened with the Bus Éireann workers. In Iarnród Éireann there has been a decade or more of gross underfunding. The company refers to it as deferred maintenance but it is a lack of funding in infrastructure that would keep a safe standard. The company again seems to be ignoring the fact that funding has issued and the same scapegoat seems to be targeted. It is the workforce and the change in management. Is the witness of the opinion that workers, ten years on and having taken pay cuts over that period, are entitled to the pay rises they seek? Do they have a right to ask for that, regardless of the lack of funding and investment over decades? That is not the fault of workers. The same as the witnesses or any of us, they are entitled to a pay rise. Does the witness accept that? The passenger numbers have increased so much that the company is back to 2007 levels. Passengers are coming back. As with Bus Éireann, the people singled out for changes and to bear the brunt are workers.

I have a question on rail operations and profits. Do operational profits go to infrastructure or where are they spent? Will the witnesses give some detail as I am sure they are aware of exactly where they go? There are a couple of other matters, including the safety concerns in the rail review and the lack of funding. It goes everywhere from signalling to the possibility of line closures and speed restrictions. There was an incident in Cork involving signalling problems and the station was closed for a number of weeks. There is overcrowding on carriages and problems with disability access. None of these has been addressed. I am at a loss as to what has been done by Iarnród Éireann other than making reference to it in the statement.

What is the opinion of the witness on the fact that the Minister, thus far, has given no real commitment? He certainly made no announcement in the budgetary measures. If the witnesses know of the commitment, what exactly is it? Will the company be happy if it gets funding for an extra couple of dozen carriages? The rail review clearly states that €500 million over the next five years is needed, but will the company settle for less?

Is the company is involved with public-private partnerships etc? If investment was made in the rail network, particularly carriages, would it be to prepare it for privatisation down the road and outsourcing? Have there been discussions with the Minister, the Department or the NTA on privatisation or outsourcing, which is the other word we have seen in conjunction with Bus Éireann?

Although it is minor relative to the bigger issues, we are seeing overcrowding on trains. In my county of Louth there is serious overcrowding on the Dundalk to Dublin train and vice versa. There are intercity trains, such as the train from Belfast to Dublin, but it does not get into Dublin before 9 a.m. I cringe with embarrassment as there is no other service across Europe like that which would not get workers in before 9 a.m. on a work day.

There is also the question of disability access. I will come to Bus Éireann in a moment but as part of the plan to deal with workers and pending strike action in Iarnród Éireann, is there a plan to leave stations unplanned or have certain stations closed and services shut down? If there is a plan to leave stations unmanned and put staff on trains, how will it affect the 24 hours' notice that wheelchair users must give to use public rail services? If a person is working in a train station and a person arrives who needs disability access, the worker would be able to get out a ramp and assist the person on to the train. How will this work in future?

What is the opinion of the representative of Bus Éireann on what has been happening with regard to Bus Éireann in County Meath? I asked a parliamentary question on how many bus drivers have sought redundancy in the past 12 months and since then I have asked how many drivers have left the organisation in that time. There was mention of the changed management and how rosters were being implemented. Is the witness confident that is the case? From what we hear on the ground it is not the case and there is much discontent among workers. They were previously working an eight-hour day and now it will be a 13-hour shift, with half-hour breaks and no toilet facilities. I hear from across the board there is much resentment or discontent. Will the witness explain what exactly is happening in Meath? Will we see a recurrence of those actions across the board?

The witnesses indicated their confidence in a significant improvement in the subsidy, which has been 47%. That was not announced in the budget and no commitment was given. The witnesses have clearly been given a commitment so what are the figures in that commitment?

Deputy Bríd Smith asked questions about the tendering process for the 10% of Dublin Bus routes that went to tender and specifically the competitor, Go-Ahead. Every question she asked received a reply indicating she was seeking commercially sensitive information. Was the tender made by Dublin Bus cheaper than Go-Ahead and what was the basis for Dublin Bus not securing the tender?

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did the Minister give an indication as to what Iarnród Éireann could expect?

Mr. Frank Allen

I met the Minister before the budget. He acknowledged and recognised the issue of crowding at stations. He is very concerned about this. He asked me if there were circumstances where people could be left behind at a railway station, and I told him that during the morning peak it is very tight. He understands the issue and is supportive. As the national budget cascades through the various areas of expenditure, it is expected that there will be funding to allow us proceed with refurbishing rolling stock, where the process of procurement and seeking a contractor has begun. It is expected that the company will be able to go to the market and buy new rolling stock and that funding will be made available to deal with the signalling project.

It is incremental, yes. Until such a time as we get the letter, it is appropriate for us to be a little cautious because we do not know what other calls or competing demands need to be dealt with.

The Deputy asked whether there are any proposals on privatisation, public private partnerships or any such thing. I do not see opportunities for it in Ireland. No discussions have taken place. That is not part of the agenda for anybody involved in the railway in Ireland at the moment.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will try to be brief. I will start with Bus Éireann. Mr. Murphy in his opening statement said the customer is central. I am sorry to say that does not bear out my recent experience with Bus Éireann. The only way I can test its commitment to putting the customer at the centre is with the complaints I get from people. I have ongoing, daily complaints from people left behind regarding the service being provided in a number of places in Kildare. I talk to the NTA about this. They are the only ones who would take a call from me. I have failed for the past three weeks to receive even a call back from someone in Bus Éireann, which is absolutely unacceptable. The service is erratic in spots. Double-decker buses are now single-decker buses and the latter do not have the capacity. People are at risk of losing their jobs. We are at that point. This has been going on for weeks. When I talked to the NTA it told me there was an industrial relations issue and that there would be penalties for non-compliance, but that happens quarterly in arrears, so people have been putting up with this erratic service for three months. If there is an industrial relations issue, it behoves the bus company to tell people that, that is, to put them on alert and not to have a situation where customers go out in the expectation that a bus will turn up, having looked at a timetable, only for it to pass them by when it does turn up because there is a capacity issue. There is a very serious issue right across the east coast. Bus Éireann needs to come out very publicly and say exactly what is happening and what it is doing about it, otherwise it will lose customers. It is certainly losing its reputation in this regard and this certainly does not bear out what Mr. Murphy said at the beginning of the meeting. I even approached the Minister on two occasions and asked him to get me someone who would give me a call back to tell me exactly what is going on in order that I could pass on that information. Even that has not worked. I just do not know. Bus Éireann seems to be impregnable at this stage and there is no public relations aspect to it. The company really needs to deal with this because Kildare is one area where there are very well used routes that will be compromised.

Moving to Irish Rail, I note that Mr. Allen has come through the Railway Procurement Agency, where he was chief executive from 2002. One of the ongoing talking points regarding rail services in the capital concerns the railway order in respect of the DART underground project, which was allowed to lapse for financial reasons. A lot of money was spent getting to the point where there was a railway order and design in place for the project. What percentage of that work is still usable and does Mr. Allen see the underground proposal forming part of his vision for the future of Irish Rail? I see Mr. Barry Kenny of Iarnród Éireann is in the Public Gallery. I often refer to his statement some years ago that the DART underground initiative would be the real game changer in terms of increasing the number of passenger journeys. Does Mr. Allen agree the project is necessary? The need to build underground was identified in a Dublin Transport Initiative, DTI, report published in 1996, at a time when transport funding came from the European Union in a thematic way. One of the arguments made then, more than 20 years ago, in favour of an underground facility was that Dublin was underperforming because of congestion. Does Mr. Allen see the bringing back into play of the underground project as a central component of efforts to resolve the congestion issue?

In regard to the maintenance costs of €103 million per year over five years, I understand what the chairperson designate is saying in regard to speeds. If that level of underfunding continues, when will we reach the point where it is not just speeds but safety that is potentially compromised? I accept that Mr. Allen will not take that risk but can he give us some idea of what risks might present if sufficient funding is not made available? Maintaining speed capacity is very important in terms of attracting people to use public transport instead of private cars but safety must always be the primary concern.

Dublin Bus is the workhorse of the public transport system in the greater Dublin area. The same question that arose in respect of Bus Éireann arises when it comes to Dublin Bus and the awarding of the contract to Go-Ahead, namely, whether there is a fair competition when one is up against a competitor who does not have to match pay and pensions. How does Mr. Courtney see that issue being overcome and could it compromise other routes? I accept his point that having a cohesive system is important. In my own area at one point we had a range of transport operators offering different services at an array of different bus stops. That type of arrangement is incoherent and difficult for people to navigate, and that can have knock-on consequences. What does the chairperson designate consider the best approach to take into the future to ensure a cohesive service? We will have to wait and see how the BusConnects initiative pans out but it seems to be a useful initiative. There have been several improvements in bus services in the capital in recent years, including, in particular, the real time information service. It took a long time for the various companies to get on board with the Leap card but that facility makes public transport much more attractive to people.

Wheelchair users have frequently voiced their concerns regarding the 24-hour notice requirement. Will the Chairpersons designate outline any proposals they have to address that issue? Have models been put in place in other jurisdictions to overcome the problem?

Chairman

What is best practice in this regard?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. It is an issue that comes up constantly in respect of Dublin Bus. I accept that it often comes down to the goodwill of passengers, especially those with buggies, but it is not unusual for wheelchair users to have to wait for several buses to pass by before they can board one. Are additional powers needed for bus drivers to impose rules as to who should have priority? Would a publicity campaign be helpful to educate the public on the specific needs of wheelchair users who access public transport? We must give more certainty to people who are dependent on the buses to get around. In the case of Bus Éireann, are there designated stops for wheelchair users in particular locations? I understand ground gradients are an issue at some stops. Is a strategic approach being taken to accommodate wheelchair users to a greater degree?

In regard to Dublin Bus, Mr. Courtney said the intention is to alleviate short-term congestion. Does he agree something more than additional bus services is needed to do that? I realise that in putting this question I may be asking him to sell Dublin Bus short.

On climate change, transport, as we all know, is one of the three major polluting sectors. We can do something with electric cars but how we move forward in more sustainable ways will be a key issue. How are the chairpersons designate engaging with the mitigation measures that have been identified for the transport sector? Do they, for example, have a process for informing the Department what is needed to reach the targets? What involvement do the witnesses have in that particular area of work?

According to the Comptroller and Auditor General, there have been no new service level agreements between the Department and Bus Éireann for the provision of school transport services. As I understand it, the current arrangement has not been updated since 1975 and involves the allocation of a lump sum payment, called the transport management charge or something like that. It seems, moreover, that no notes are taken at the operational meetings between the Department and Bus Éireann to document the issues discussed. How might that issue be addressed?

Deputy Mick Barry

I will be brief as I am due in the House to question the Taoiseach on funding issues relating to Irish Rail. My question to Mr. Allen is one I will not have time to ask the Taoiseach. We are facing a strike next Wednesday by Irish Rail staff, the first of five national stoppages planned for the coming weeks. These workers have not had a pay increase for a decade. Mr. Allen referred to a 1.75% pay offer but there are 18 conditions attached to that.

When they are taken into account, this in effect is not a pay increase, but a pay cut, and a significant one at that.

The DTI was right about the economic and social costs to the greater Dublin area and the people living here of a lack of high-capacity public transport. The fact that investment was not made as anticipated at the time has resulted in a sprawl, a certain quality of life for people travelling exceptionally long distances and being caught in congestion on the way into the city. The DTI was right and nothing has happened in the meantime to contradict its conclusion.

The initiatives that arose from the DTI, including the Luas, made a significant contribution to improving quality of life when implemented. Unfortunately, not enough was done, which has resulted in urban sprawl. The population of Dublin lives in approximately three times the space of a comparable population in continental Europe. This has adverse consequences in terms of the economy, quality of life and sustainability.

Regarding issues that need more urgent attention, for example, sustainability, our commitments as a community to addressing climate change and the national mitigation plan that was published in July, there is no way that we can meet our obligations under those proposals without a change in the number of people travelling using public transport rather than private cars. This requires high capacity.

Deputy Murphy referred to how my colleague, Mr. Kenny, stated that the DART underground would be a game changer. It would be. The Deputy asked me whether this remained our priority. In that regard, and given the amount of money that is realistically available to us, I would try to ensure that we protect the quality of public transport for the 45 million people who are using Iarnród Éireann this year, increase capacity on those routes and then determine how to extend further. The first step will be to determine how to extend electrification of the railway lines, which is a critical part of the DART underground project, incrementally and as soon as possible with a view to having more electrified transport. Rather than waiting for one big bang, we should be asking which pieces of the overall railway infrastructure can be implemented progressively so that more people can be brought onto it.

We are confident that we can compete with anybody who wishes to compete with us, but we need support in that. We need support from the Oireachtas and the Labour Court with regard to applications for sectoral employment agreements or employment regulation orders whereby there are policy decisions on the minimum floors which the State believes should not be breached because in those circumstances one always worries about safety and the concerns and standards of drivers. We have very high standard drivers and high safety standards and we are absolutely confident we can maintain those. There have been discussions and agreements about that and they are being processed at present.

We can deal with that. The most important thing is that we have to make change. I do not know how long I am doing change but at this stage it must be over 30 years. Where there are trade unions one has to sit down, make agreements, negotiate and do deals. It does not mean one does not fall out or have difficulties. Nobody wants to have them, but one does and at the end of the day one has to come to a fair agreement. We have a responsibility as an employer, as a commercial State company, to be a good and fair employer. Our employees are very valued. They are good people.

Reference was made to BusConnects. It is an investment in the bus network and I think BusConnects is great. Dublin Bus is also great because it is bus overground. One does not have to do a whole lot with it other than to provide the buses. One of the things we did this year was to retain 30 buses that were due to be retired. We are keeping them in service to try to provide more service where there is congestion and people end up waiting at the bus stop. Those people are trying to go to work and to engineer the economy to make money. It is a social backstop as well although it is still seen as cool in the sense that the person in the wheelchair who wants to go to work is as entitled to get on the bus as the able-bodied person. We work hard to do that. Our entire fleet is 100% accessible because we have been working on it for some time. It does happen occasionally - it is not good when it does - that a person has to wait because the wheelchair access is being taken up by another wheelchair or there is a dispute over buggies. That is something we have to work on and see what we can do. I have been reminded again today of how important it is to provide a social service to everybody, and not only a social service but an economic service for the person who is going to work.

Short-term congestion troubled me when I worked on the buses 30 years ago and it is still troubling me but there have been huge advances since in terms of the quality bus corridors and bus lanes. We have a state-of-the-art control centre that works with the Garda to try to keep them open and to keep the traffic moving. I could go on all night about the separation of bikes and buses. We all know it would be ideal to separate those who walk from those who are on bikes and those who are in cars. At the moment, the most important thing is to provide buses. We are in discussion with the NTA about another 30 buses and the renewal of the fleet.

Mr. Aidan Murphy

I wish to make one point on congestion because it would be of great assistance from Bus Éireann's point of view. There are dedicated bus lanes in the cities but more so in Dublin. The regional cities are not as well provided for in terms of bus priority measures and it is an issue where the focus that has been on Dublin has not transferred to Cork, Galway and Limerick. That is a serious issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy would be aware from her constituency that we have buses coming into Dublin on the motorway and when they reach the end of the motorway, they are stuck in the traffic with the rest of the traffic. People might as well be in a car. We do not see why there would be a difficulty in having the buses use the side lanes. I know it is for emergency vehicles but if buses could use the side lanes, they would then be able to move through the traffic and get into the city much faster. That would be a tremendous benefit for customers because they would then see a significant advantage in using the bus over the car to get into the city. We would welcome it if the committee was able to support such an initiative.

Chairman

I now call the former Minister of State, Senator Kevin Humphreys. He and I were both Ministers of State. He took over my office and now he is subservient to me again.

Senator Kevin Humphreys

I was thinking we might take a break at 1.30 p.m. for lunch.

Chairman

The Senator should turn off his phone.

Senator Kevin Humphreys

I think that might have been Deputy Catherine Murphy's phone as she left. The witnesses are very welcome. It has been quite a long morning for them so I will try to be brief. The Chairman referred to the fact that we have three male witnesses and inquired about gender balance on the board. That question has been answered but have any of the companies carried out a review of the gender pay gap? RTÉ thought it did not have a problem until it began to look at the issue closely. Have the boards considered the issue of a gender pay gap? I know many of the employees are paid a specific rate, such as that for bus drivers, but there are also many managerial roles and senior executives in the companies. Have the companies commissioned a review of the gender pay gap and, if so, when do they expect to get the results?

We talked about the investment needed for Irish Rail. Could the witnesses outline what they are bringing to the table? Irish Rail recently put out to tender a joint development on some of its lands at Grand Canal Harbour where the development of an office block is being considered. Landbanks are also a factor in several other locations across the network. What contribution will that make to the investment in infrastructure? I am aware of the commercial sensitivities in this regard but is it possible to get a global figure for the entire landbank assets?

Has Dublin Bus commissioned a review of its landbanks, assessed what is there and what can be brought to the table in terms of investment and making sure the company is maximising the returns from the landbanks? I am not saying Dublin Bus should close any stations but the company must examine whether it is utilising the spaces it has in the best way possible. If a review has been commissioned, are the results accessible? How long ago is it since the issue was examined? The property situation has changed significantly.

In terms of Dublin Bus, there has been a change with the NTA and I wonder what is the bottom line. In future, its rolling stock will not go onto its balance sheet. It will stay on the NTA balance sheet, unlike Irish Rail where its rolling stock will stay on its balance sheet. Is there a contractual basis to the relationship with the NTA in terms of maintenance and servicing of the fleet and will it have a financial impact on Dublin Bus? Currently, buses are maintained to a high standard and safety checks are part of that. Is the NTA placing an additional onus on Dublin Bus given that it will own the stock? What effect will that have on the balance sheet of Dublin Bus? The NTA has also been given a role in terms of branding the bus service across the city. Dublin Bus has invested a lot of money on branding and delivery of service. Do the witnesses see branding as being a source of conflict between the NTA and Dublin Bus and will it damage the current branding of Dublin Bus?

In terms of Irish Rail, electrification is something we all hope will happen. I know some of its rolling stock has been approved for refurbishment. When will a decision have to be made on commissioning additional rolling stock? How long is the lead-in time for that stock? We can see an increasing demand and decisions will have to be made for 2021 onwards. If the company does not get approval to order extra carriages, can we have electrification without the rolling stock? A degree of planning is required.

Expressway routes have been under significant pressure from commercial operators especially given that they do not have to stop at any towns and villages on the route. Have any hub developments been considered for Expressway? That is short and sweet and I will leave it at that.

Chairman

I should have said the former Minister of State. Will Senator Humphreys forgive me for my sins?

Senator Kevin Humphreys

Okay, but they are not paying you any longer, Chairman.

Mr. Frank Allen

In response to Senator Humphreys' questions, I am not aware of whether Iarnród Éireann has carried out a gender pay gap review. It has certainly not been brought to the board. I will follow up with management about that.

Iarnród Éireann and CIE have been engaging on that. That is a separate matter to the disposal of land which is intended to realise funds that can be invested in transport. The first three transactions are in the market at the moment. To take account of buoyant market conditions is a positive thing. When I say a property is in the market, I mean we will know within weeks what value will be realised from it. There is a property team within the CIE group looking at any other potential disposals. It will be guided to some extent by the transactions we will know about in the coming weeks. I hope I have not given the impression it is something we might get around to looking at in the future because that is not the case; it is the subject of very active attention. With regard to the properties that are the subject of the three transactions in the market at the moment, deciding to prepare them for sale and working out how they would fit with future railway infrastructure takes a bit of time. This work started some time ago. It was apparent to the property people and the wider public that there was value there, which was not there two or three years ago. That will continue and there is urgency. Some land was sold some years ago as part of the Spencer Dock development and the money was used for the requirements of the company. It is not something we will get around to in the future; it is very much on people's agenda. There are people in property working full time on it at the moment.

The third point the Senator raised was the timing of decisions regarding electrification. In some respects, that decision has been made already. Iarnród Éireann has a fleet strategy which favours hybrid rolling stock that can use either overhead catenaries or diesel. We have already made the decision to go that route. We have reviewed the product offerings and technical specifications and how they would fit our network. That has already happened. There are commitments to additional funding so we do not have to make a decision; the decision has already been made. We can go to the market very quickly to procure rolling stock that will have the required flexibility and will not depend on exactly the scenarios the Senator described in which we do not know which way to go. We can do both at the same time.

Chairman

No, I concur with the Chair.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.33 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 November 2017.

Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport debate - Wednesday, 25 Oct 2017

Irish Rail, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus: Chairpersons Designate

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Frank Allen

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Ultan Courtney

Mr. Aidan Murphy

Mr. Frank Allen

Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport debate -
Wednesday, 25 Oct 2017