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Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jun 2018

Accessibility of Public Transport for People with Disabilities: Discussion (Resumed)

I apologise to our witnesses who have been waiting and welcome them to the meeting. We started our meeting at 9.30 a.m. but we had other issues to deal with. Mr. Ciarán Delaney recommended that we invite the witnesses and we will call them in the following order: Ms Diane Hill, to be followed by Mr. Dermot O'Leary and then by Mr. Ciarán Delaney.

I remind members, delegates and those in the Visitors Gallery to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the recording and broadcasting equipment.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I apologise on behalf of members of the committee who were present earlier. They have to attend different meetings and they will return. A plenary session of the Dáil is also due to commence shortly.

I invite Ms Diane Hill to make her opening presentation.

Ms Diane Hill

I thank the committee for inviting me to speak. Mr. Ciarán Delaney has been a fantastic advocate of everything we at Now Group do. I hope my address will provide a flavour of what we do and how we think it could be beneficial for Ireland.

I am the director of business development in Now Group, which was founded more than 16 years ago. Our main mission is to support people with learning difficulties and autism to gain employment with a future. We look at many business opportunities, as a social enterprise, but everything we do is about finding opportunities for our participants.

I would like to introduce the committee to just a minute, JAM, cards. Hopefully, they have been circulated and members will get a chance to look at them. The JAM card originated from our social group of participants. The social group wanted to look at how its members could find employment, which is our main aim and which helps to create independent lives. As part of this we were asked to devise something that was simple and discreet but that made others aware of the need for compassion when dealing with particular customers. One of the main problems was transport links. They play a big part in helping people find employment, and also in promoting well-being in everything they do. We actively encourage this. We co-designed the JAM card. Initially, we wanted it to have many features to ensure that it did what we wanted it to do. We learned a lot from that, because our participants pushed back and said that they did not want the card to do more that was necessary. It is a "just a minute" card.

Our mission is to create a brand that people will become aware of so that users of the card do not need to explain their disabilities at every turn. Why should we label people at all times? The bus drivers' union came together and decided that it needed support on how it could provide assistance for people with whom there is a communication barrier. The JAM card was born from this discussion. The bus drivers' union supported us in its development, and since 2011, 10,000 cards have entered circulation. As a result of that, we developed an app, which now has 1,000 users. The app provides a voice for people with learning difficulties and autism because they are able to rate the customer service they experience on bus and train journeys and in any retail establishment they go into and share that experience with others. We have received fantastic user feedback, primarily on social media, where users could share experience with each other.

Community engagement has been a big factor in the success of the JAM card. We have now expanded to cover people with dementia, brain injuries, speech impediments and other communication barriers we have become aware of. JAM cards assist people suffering with those problems. We have a video explaining how the cards work but, unfortunately, it cannot be played. I would like to circulate it after the meeting.

Absolutely, that can be done.

Ms Diane Hill

It gives an idea of how the cards work in practice. We piloted much of our training, and have realised that the JAM card can only go so far. We need organisations, every council area and all interested parties to get behind this and make sure that staff are aware of the cards. Staff may also need support to provide customer service for everybody. We believe that everyone should be provided with excellent customer service, regardless of his or her ability. We hope that people start to value that.

My request is that accessibility is made consistently available throughout Ireland. We work well with Translink but, unfortunately, Enterprise trains do not have the same service. We would prefer if it was consistent everywhere. This would support employment, well-being and many other aspects that support people who want to lead independent lives. It would also support the tourist experience, and be seen as an all-Ireland initiative. We want to develop partnerships within Ireland. We have been working with WALK and other organisations. We want to ensure that JAM cards are embedded in the community and are not just the responsibility of certain organisations. We have to ensure that the cards are used. I envisage that a two-year plan to implement JAM card usage throughout the transport links across Ireland is required. This would involve e-learning training for staff and also face-to-face training, ensuring that the use of the cards is embedded into the culture of the companies and that everyone has an understanding of them. We want to ensure that our training is supportive of the needs of every organisation we work with and that it supports every participant who requires it.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

My colleagues from the three companies the union represents are in the Public Gallery. That is a demonstration of the commitment to access for people with disabilities that we have. I will explain more later.

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this hearing on access to public transport for people with disabilities. Any decent society, particularly a First World country such as ours, should be measured on how it treats its most vulnerable citizens, both those with visible ailments that are easily recognisable and those who outwardly, at least, look full-bodied and able minded, but are carrying some burden that afflicts their everyday lives.

As general secretary of the National Bus and Rail Union, NBRU, the foremost front-line transport trade union in Ireland, I am committed to ensuring that nobody is treated in a less favourable manner to any fellow citizen. However, our national infrastructure and the provisions made for people with disabilities fall far short of what is required and casts those with responsibility for such facilities in an extremely bad light. While the Dublin Bus fleet is 100% wheelchair accessible and Bus Éireann's public service obligation, PSO, and commercial fleets are almost 100% wheelchair accessible, the ability to deliver people with disabilities to their location or stop of choice is severely restricted by the shameful condition of some footpaths and hard-stands across the country. The responsibility for this lies with both national and local authorities. The National Transport Authority, NTA, has previously stated that the local councils have jurisdiction over the provision of infrastructure to facilitate disability access and embarkation onto our bus transport system. This is a cop-out, and the so-called authority, which is master of all it surveys in respect of transport provision, should not be allowed to get away with such mealy-mouthed responses. This crowd now has so much of a stranglehold over funding and revenue streams that it can even charge for advertising on bus shelters throughout the bus network. This is surely ironic, given that those same shelters are located adjacent to the very locations that do not have adequate infrastructural facilities for disability access. It is not much of a stretch to suggest that some of this income stream could be directed towards providing wheelchair accessibility countrywide.

Stripping the much-needed subvention over recent years from the three CIÉ companies has also had a direct impact on accessibility. There have been reports in the media, for example, of people being stranded on trains. This is not a reflection on the hardworking front-line staff. Rather, it is reflective of the attitude of successive Governments, which have cut funding for public transport. What is not mentioned, of course, is the fact that more than 3,000 jobs have been shed in Irish Rail over the past 15 years. Quite a number of those were shed to enable the company to cut its cloth in terms of State subvention, leading directly to the recent problems at that company regarding disability access. For example, the number of unmanned stations has mushroomed over recent years.

It has been a source of great disappointment to all of us at the NBRU that some commentary on the accessibility issue has sought to lay the blame at the door of front-line bus and rail workers. Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to make it abundantly clear to the committee that there are absolutely no industrial relation impediments to accessibility for any of our fellow citizens across the bus and train services run by CIÉ. Our members will fully co-operate with any initiative which will assist towards making all locations 100% accessible.

The NBRU has also, over the past number of years, been campaigning for sufficient funding for the three CIÉ companies for the so-called free travel scheme. There has been much discourse, on many media platforms, on this issue, particularly during the unfortunate Bus Éireann dispute last year. Much of it, unfortunately, centred on the notion that it is a free pass. The NBRU believes this is fundamentally wrong on a number of levels. We should have long ago changed the emphasis and perhaps the title of such travel into something which supports the entitlement of our most vulnerable. Perhaps the committee might lend its support to changing it to something more appropriate and potentially less stigmatising such as the social mobility card.

The entire bus and rail fleet, both private and State-owned, PSO and commercial, should be required compulsorily to be mobility friendly. Engineering infrastructural solutions need to be advanced to enable persons with difficulties to have access to all buses and trains. Front-line staff should be fully trained to assist those with disabilities. All of these require funding. The onus is on the Government to commit to providing such funding. No excuses should be offered or tolerated.

The NTA is entitled to the respect of Mr. O'Leary and myself when referring to it. Referring to it as a "so-called authority" and "this crowd" is unacceptable. However, I do take and support fully-----

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

Chairman-----

Just one second please. I am delighted Mr. O'Leary came in and I particularly welcome his clear and public commitment on this issue. As Chairman, it is my job to ensure every State body is referred to by its name, no matter what a delegate thinks of it.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

May I respond to that? The NTA is the NTA. I was reared on the basis that when people earn my respect, they get it.

I do not want to have to adjourn this meeting because we are here to talk about disability. That is the only issue.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

That is central.

As Chairman, it is my job to ensure that every State body or union is treated respectfully, even if one disagrees profoundly with it.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

I accept that. I accept the Chairman's acknowledgment.

That is fair. I very much welcome Mr. O'Leary's strong commitment to change and to supporting disability.

I call Mr. Delaney.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

My speech is different from that which was submitted. I will circulate copies of it later.

The disability community has had some fantastic advocates, such as the late Martin Naughton and Donal Toolan. People like me, Jess Ní Mhaoláin, Padraic Moran and Alannah Murray need to continue their legacy.

Everything regarding inclusivity and integration for people with disabilities on public transport has been Dublin-centric. Every vehicle in the Dublin Bus fleet has both audio and visual next-stop announcements and is wheelchair accessible. Bus Éireann is the polar opposite. Evidence was presented to the committee that all Bus Éireann city buses are low-floor vehicles. That is inaccurate. There are two services that are not. The 221 Parnell Place-Hazelwood service has private hire buses on in the evenings on a fairly regular basis and they are not wheelchair accessible. The 226A service from Kent Station-Parnell Place Bus Station to Cork Airport is rarely serviced by low-floor buses. The real-time passenger information signs have the wheelchair accessible logo placed beside them on the route. There is a wheelchair-accessible bus stop on the Lower Glamire side of Kent Station. All people had to do was get off the bus and roll into the station for access to the platform for the Cobh and Midleton commuter services or onto platform 4, from where most Mallow and Dublin trains depart. When the new public transport interface was built on the Horgan's Quay side of the station, the company failed to include a ramp to provide access. If the lift breaks down, people on wheelchairs cannot gain access to the station. I will be happy to elaborate on that later in the hearing.

Colbert Station was recently refurbished and had its platforms done, but not to the height that is necessary. There are only two types of train coming into that station. There was a perfect opportunity to facilitate easier access to rolling stock. It did not happen.

There are two main train sets that operate on the Irish Rail mainline. A lot of misinformation is circulating about the accessibility of the Cork-Dublin mark-4 sets. There are seven carriages in each mark-4 set. Carriage A is for first class and has a wheelchair-accessible space but one has to pay a surcharge to avail of that. Carriage B is the buffet car, which has no wheelchair space. The other five carriages have wheelchair spaces but, unfortunately, people seem to believe they are for buggies, collapsible bikes or cases. The priority seats on the mark-4 set that are located near the toilets have not been highlighted as such. Someone needs to order some stickers to highlight them and then order the quiet carriage stickers to be replaced. In fact, some privatised UK rail companies are now increasing the number of quiet carriages on their services. On what Irish Rail calls its inter-city railcar, ICR, fleet, which generally consists of five carriages, there are two wheelchair spaces in the standard class and possibly another two if there happens to be a first-class carriage in the set, again subject to a surcharge. That is three fewer wheelchair accessible spaces.

The NTA is allowing Irish Rail to charge disabled people €5 each way to reserve a seat when EU regulation states this should not happen. Irish Rail is now allowing people to reserve priority seats, which the business community seems to like. One's chair has a table so one can spread out. There are not two people on the opposite side. These can be reserved free when a person buys her ticket online. The next time members go into any railway station to look at the booking office, they should ask how they would feel trying to do their business from a wheelchair. For me, as an autistic person, travelling on Irish Rail can be a nightmare but I have no choice. There are glass partition doors within the mark-4 fleet that are never utilised so they should be removed. Previously there were quiet carriages on the mark-4 fleet. Without any consultation, the company withdrew them. Not even the train hosts were told about this happening. While engaging with Irish Rail management on this matter, it honourably admitted that it had never factored autism into the corporate thought process. Irish Rail management has been absolutely superb with me. It has confirmed it had no one on the autistic spectrum on its disability consultation group. It has recently informed me it would be engaging with an organisation that was never in contact with it previously regarding advocacy. That is a concern for me.

Mr. Jim Meade of Irish Rail is a breath of fresh air, as is Mr. Frank Allen, the new chairman. They are both honourable people and have inherited a myriad of problems, thanks in large part to the previous corporate culture that was fostered and empowered. The two are doing their best to resolve this. Mr. Padraic Moran and I met Mr. Meade at his office in Connolly Station. It was a very open, professionally conducted meeting, the like of which Mr. Meade will never experience again. He has begun to undo the damage caused in the past and I hope will succeed in eradicating the culture that pervaded in certain sections of the company in respect of people with disabilities. Again, he is top class.

There are issues regarding the audio announcements not working in the toilets for people who are visually impaired. I invite Irish Rail management to inspect the high-visibilty strips that are supposed to delineate the door frame from the rest of the carriage. They have been rendered useless with age.

The train hosts on the Cork-Dublin service are an exceptional group of people who have willingly engaged with me. When I knew that I was coming close to sensory overload, they did their best to accommodate me and even brought me up to first class. The noise would totally knock me out.

Before I move on to Bus Éireann, I will deal with the Luas. A simple challenge for any member of the committee or the NTA is to try to board the Luas at peak times in a wheelchair. One has no chance. When Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the question in here as to what supports existed to ensure wheelchair passengers could board at peak times, the officials managed to evade answering. Perhaps the committee could write to Luas and request a formal answer.

I am going to return to Bus Éireann now and to what I was saying regarding the disparity between the level of integration on Dublin Bus and that on Bus Éireann. They are polar opposites. My rationale for that statement is supported by the facts outlined earlier. I implore the committee to ask the NTA to supply the tender documents which should have the specifications for the supply of buses for Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus since its creation.

As the Chairman is well aware, there are no dot matrix signs and audio announcements in most buses in the Bus Éireann fleet, as outlined previously. Mr. Ray Hernan, in his testimony to this committee on 7 February this year, stated Bus Éireann has had the audio facility since 2015 but has only recently begun the process of recording the names of stops. I recall a figure of 550 stops having been recorded, leaving 6,100 to be done by the end of the year. That works out at 20 stop names per day to be recorded. The visual assistive technology scenario for city services throughout the State is sporadic. The next-stop announcement is virtually non-existent.

Members might like to note that nowhere has the NTA or the company factored in the time for facilitating the use of high-sided wheelchair access lifts in any of the non-city services. I have presented to the Chairman a book called the board book that the members can examine at their leisure.

I recently met Mr. Aidan Murphy, chairman of Bus Éireann. Members will be delighted to know there is now a seven-day telephone service for people to access wheelchair services. I have been advised that there are major issues nationally involving the Bus Éireann high-sided fleet and that wheelchair lifts have seized through lack of use. That is the same with anything in life; if it is not used, it will seize.

Bus Éireann decided a few years ago to mimic Transport for London by decaling the sides of buses. This involves putting the routes on the sides of buses. It is an excellent idea except when one route is on the dot matrix destination board and another is on the decal on the side of the bus. That is extremely confusing for somebody on the autistic spectrum.

Radios on buses are also becoming an issue, with some drivers having their radios blaring, which causes sensory overload for people like me. It has become such an issue in some locations that some autistic passengers cannot even travel on the service because if they complain, they may get grief from staff. Maintenance issues, such as doors not being serviced properly, resulting in a whistling noise going through the bus, or panels rattling owing to their not being screwed in properly when changed, cause stress for members of the autistic community. Inconsiderate passengers with their headphones blaring, which creates a hissing noise, is the equivalent of a teacher dragging his or her nails down a blackboard.

The NTA needs to submit by-laws to empower transport staff to tackle these issues head on. Fixed penalty fines of €150 would soon stop this. The same rationale pertains to wheelchair-accessible spaces on buses. The NTA launched a campaign, Please Don't Buggy in the Wheelchair Zone, in association with the Irish Wheelchair Association and Dublin Bus. Why did the NTA not roll that out nationally? Mr. O'Leary will support my contention that drivers are nervous about addressing issues to assist disabled passengers in case they face disciplinary procedures due to a complaint from able-bodied passengers. Legislation would assist drivers.

The NTA has announced that it will conduct an audit of all bus stops in the State in 2018. Mr. Ray Hernan made an excellent point when he gave evidence which is that the names assigned to the stops need to relate to the location of the stop. I would be happy to provide evidence to support Mr. Hernan's contention later.

Bus Éireann can only operate the fleet the NTA supplies. When Translink was procuring its new Glider fleet a mock-up of a bus was built and people in powered wheelchairs were asked to come to the depot so that they could make the bus accessible before it went into production. I do not believe the NTA has ever engaged in such an exercise. Its actions over the replacement 717 service in lieu of the fully wheelchair-accessible X7 Clonmel to Dublin and Dublin Airport service indicate lack of forethought.

Rules have been introduced in certain regions. One region banned mobility scooters. They are allowed on Dublin Bus vehicles once a risk assessment is conducted to ensure that the batteries have dry cells. Credit is due to Ray Hernan, who is an honourable man. Once it was brought to his attention, the matter was addressed immediately.

The NTA appears to have given the private sector a free ride on accessibility. There is not a level playing field when it comes to the Expressway service Bus Éireann provides. There are three bus services operating the Cork to Dublin and Dublin Airport route, the X8, 704X and 707. However, only one is required to have a wheelchair lift, signage in both Irish and English, and accept the free-travel pass. There is a very simple solution. Those seeking to operate a bus under a licence awarded by the NTA must match the requirements imposed on Bus Éireann or otherwise they do not operate. When licences come up for renewal, the operators need to be told that these are the criteria and factor in the cost when they are tendering for the service or seeking the licence.

The NTA has decided to rebrand buses at an enormous cost. I am unaware of any engagement with the autistic community on this. Mr. O'Leary might be able to help me with the costings on this but if there are 950 buses within the Dublin Bus fleet and there is an average cost of €15,000 to repaint each, that amounts to approximately €14 million. That could fund quite of a bit of retrofitting.

I will skip what I was going to say about local authorities because Mr. O'Leary has already said it.

Mr. Delaney should take his time. His words are words of wisdom.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Local authorities need to start working to make all bus stops wheelchair accessible. It is up to the elected representatives to make this happen. There are elections next year and here is a statistic all elected members need to consider. The most recent census put the number of disabled people at 643,131, which, multiplied by three, makes for 1.92 million votes. The disabled community has learned from recent campaigns and we will hold the political establishment to account.

There is no excuse for not making all taxis wheelchair accessible. If the NTA requires that by a certain date all taxis must be wheelchair accessible as they are in London, either the operator complies with it or hands back the licence. Last weekend our good friend, Padraic Moran, had an issue with a taxi driver who did not want to carry Gail, his assistance dog. One of the factors in Mr. Moran not bringing Gail is that every time Gail sees the Chairman, she makes a beeline for him because she knows she will get a hidden treat from him. When I rang the NTA taxi consumer line, I was informed that there is no statutory obligation on a taxi driver to take an assistance dog. A driver can refuse access or could fine the passenger by imposing a soiling charge.

It is only since my community has had Senator John Dolan in the Upper House that there has been some change in attitude. That, combined with a Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, who actually cares about us and is trying to undo the years of lack of investment and priority, seems to have given them the necessary jolt to force them onto the accessibility and integration route - pardon the pun.

The three chief executives now know what they will be facing if they do not start putting inclusivity and accessibility to the top of their agendas. They also know that they will have disabled directors to answer to shortly.

The Minister has been brilliant in dealing with us. He has taken the time to listen and act on the issues for our community. Dermot O’Leary from the NBRU is extremely supportive and has become a firm friend. It would be very remiss of me not to mention John Moloney, who has recently retired from Bus Éireann. He is a legend in his own lifetime. He and his colleagues have done valuable work for people in the disabled community, especially within the COPE foundation. John Buttimer, brother of the Leader of the Seanad, Senator Buttimer, works there.

I will conclude by posing a question to the Chairman and members of the committee. Do any of them know how the RSA's certificate of professional competence for buses module describes people with disabilities? We are people with peculiarities. That is what it taught to all professional bus drivers. I will read it out:

Objective: ability to ensure passenger comfort and safety... managing conflicts between safe driving and other roles as a driver, interacting with passengers, peculiarities of certain groups of passengers (disabled persons, children).

I offer my thanks to Paul Kelly. Etaoine Howlett and Jo Curran went above and beyond the call of duty as regards Padraic Moran and Alannah Murray. Padraic was extremely nervous and asked me to pass his particular thanks to Etaoine for the way she took care of Padraic and Gail. Jo has been fantastic. I thank Paul for his help. I wanted to place that on the record.

Before opening the discussion to members, I thank all the witnesses for attending and giving us the benefit of their knowledge. Mr. Delaney is the best advocate for change I know. I thank him for bringing more issues to our attention today.

I apologise that I had to go out for few minutes. I was obliged to do so because the meeting commenced later than anticipated. I apologise on behalf of my colleagues who are unavoidably absent. It would be better if more members of the committee were present. I am sure all members will read the presentations made in their own time. Those presentations will feed into the committee's report on how we can make public transport more accessible for people with varying levels of ability, be they physical or intellectual issues. That is only right and proper.

Mr. Delaney made a number of points. He was very complimentary of the Minister. We are critical of the NTA and certain other bodies. At the end of the day those bodies are responsible to the Minister. If Mr. Delaney were appointed Minister tomorrow and could implement three things from a legislative perspective, what would he do?

I have a question for Mr. O'Leary from the NBRU. In light of yesterday's re-announcement of BusConnects, does he envisage that it will be beneficial to people with a disability or might that proposal be negative to people with a disability?

Representatives of the NTA will appear before the committee next week to discuss the BusConnects proposal. It would be beneficial to hear from Mr. O'Leary, as the representative of bus drivers working on the ground, as to what he sees as the potential pitfalls and the potential gains.

I compliment Ms Diane Hill on her work. Since its introduction in 2011, how is the JAM card working out? How many cards are in circulation? Does somebody with an issue simply hold the card up to the person behind them on the bus? Is it recognisable in the jurisdiction where it is in operation? The first I heard of the JAM card was when the secretariat circulated Ms Hill's presentation early this week in advance of this meeting.

Ms Diane Hill

There are 10,000 cards in circulation. We started to provide them in 2011. Since the app was developed, there have been 1,000 downloads. We can track when they are used; they are used throughout the world. For the card, we have done a great deal of work on the community aspect in Northern Ireland.

We have not done any community work in Ireland because the training is based on UK legislation, so it would have to be transposed into Irish legislation. We have done a lot of work with that. Basically, people hold up either the card or the app. For us it is about organisation and encouraging the use of the card. If one gets on a bus or train in Northern Ireland one can see the JAM card logo so people are encouraged to use it. People are trained on how to recognise it throughout many organisations in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

Deputy Troy referred to the NTA. I work with Ms Anne Graham and her colleagues in the NTA and I have the height of respect for that lady. However, that does not stop me criticising what I sometimes consider to be the NTA's over-reach in terms of its power and authority.

To answer Deputy Troy's question, we were out yesterday talking about BusConnects. Of course, there is much positivity in it. I am not here to talk it down. Hopefully, the opportunity of the meeting with the committee next week will allow us to interrogate some of the details of the BusConnects plan. My colleague has just reminded me that, for example, there are thousands of Down's syndrome commuters in Dublin and they have to be route trained to access buses when they commute to school, college and, in many cases, work. Unless we are corrected, and hopefully we will be next week, the reduction in services in housing estates will mean the recognisable people in wheelchairs who live on those estates may find they either have to find their own way out onto the main corridors that are being proposed or use a feeder service. Given the way it is presented, it will discommode many people. Interchanging will be a huge factor for people with disabilities, whether they have an intellectual or mobility disability.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney will answer the Deputy's question more directly but I wish to make another point. One of my colleagues in the Public Gallery made a point to me before the meeting about the bus cage. This relates to the Dublin Bus driver in particular but not exclusively. The bus cage is the length of the bus stop, which effectively is longer than the bus, in which the bus has to park. The number of cars and lorries that park in bus cages has gone way beyond what is reasonable and acceptable. If I had my way tomorrow morning, there would be no comeback for people who park in bus cages and penalty points would be applied. That is what I would do in the morning in terms of accessing the bus cage. Mr. Delaney knows what I mean.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney made the point that certain bus drivers would like to be able to assist people who have mobility issues on or off the bus but they are afraid of doing so because they could be subject to disciplinary action.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

I will not go into too much detail on that. There were a few incidents where that may have happened but my role in supporting Mr. Delaney and Ms Hill is to ensure the committee understands there are no industrial relations impediments to people being assisted either on or off buses. If there are issues that I must address with the company's management, and Mr. Delaney highlighted a few to me earlier, I will do that. He mentioned the fact that the three executives in situ are progressive and open minded and will listen to people such as him, the committee members and the trade union. The disability issue was underplayed but thanks to Mr. Delaney and Senator Dolan that has now changed. I hope it will change even more. There are 643,000 people with disabilities in this country, which is a phenomenal number. I probably did not answer the Deputy's question directly but there are no industrial relations issues. That is one of the strong messages I want the committee to hear today.

There is nothing preventing the bus drivers from assisting.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

No, as far as we are concerned. However, I will talk to Mr. Delaney about the details of some of the cases he raised with me earlier. I have to investigate those.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

I wish to clarify something for anybody who is watching this meeting, and I apologise if I am putting Mr. O'Leary on the spot. To be clear, the NBRU and its colleagues in SIPTU have no issue with drivers being trained to operate the high-sided wheelchair lifts which are currently only being operated in the presence of supervisors. We have all agreed that there is an infrastructure issue. However, Mr. O'Leary would have no problem with the company training his members to operate the lift for a wheelchair passenger.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

We would have no problem. The training is for the company to provide. Again, the seven days notice which was mentioned earlier is bizarre. It has nothing at all to do with drivers or industrial relations. I hope I have cleared that up.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

To answer the question about legislation, I will not make myself popular with people but, to be blunt, I have suggested to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport that a €500 fine plus three penalty points be applied to anybody in a private vehicle who parks in a disabled space, on a footpath, in a bus bay or in a bus lane. If it is a commercial goods vehicle, that should increase to €750 plus five penalty points. There is a simple rationale for that. If people do that, they will lose their licences quickly. What is even better is that if somebody has penalty points on their licence not only is the person hit with the €500 or €750 fine, his or her insurance premium will also increase.

As regards other issues, I would make it mandatory for all taxis to be wheelchair accessible and to accept assistance dogs within a certain period. I would also insist that all buses would be low floor accessible buses. There is an opportunity for the committee to go on a fact-finding mission to Turkey in October, when the European bus exhibition is being held. The NBRU has started a disability committee, which is welcome. It also must be recognised that the Minister took on a proposal made by Senator Dolan. The Senator apologises for his absence but he is at the United Nations today. I made sure to ring him and wake him up for the speech. When we had the discussion with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, he asked us how we would do this. I told him that a disabled person should be appointed to the board. However, a culture shift is needed. A certain percentage should be ring-fenced. The members' colleagues on another committee basically came together in a tripartite committee to help employment activation for people with disabilities. If there is an improvement in infrastructure, that will encourage people to get to work.

I made the point in my presentation, and Mr. O'Leary has reiterated it, that people on the autism spectrum need to be trained on a route. I will outline an example involving my colleague, Mr. Graham Parker, and I got permission to use his name. Graham has a son, Jack, who is autistic. Jack was shown how to get to his place of work. However, his family got a telephone call to tell them that Jack had not turned up for work. An alert was put out and Jack was found still waiting at the bus stop. When he did his training to familiarise himself with the route there was a single decker bus. On that particular morning double decker buses were allocated but the change did not factor in for him. That is my point about the change of the bus brand. It was explained to me earlier that the value of the Dublin Bus logo and its fleet colours or livery is €30 million. It is proposed to spend €14.25 million on redesigning and recalibrating buses in Dublin. There are 204 pages in the NTA livery book regarding how to use its logo and on the website there is one page with a link to the transport companies. I have the height of respect for Ms Anne Graham, and Mr. Dermot O'Gara, the head of public affairs, has been fantastic on helping and engaging with me. They are the main issues with accessibility.

Compliance with EU regulation is an issue. It provides that people with a disability should be allowed to reserve their seats free of charge. It is stated categorically that there is to be no extra charge. I am glad Dermot O'Leary took on board my suggestion about the social mobility pass when we were discussing improvements. However, I must give credit where it is due. In our first meeting with the Minister, we outlined our position and he recognised that everything we were saying was achievable. He is the first Minister I am aware of who has demanded that all the boards have disabled people on them where there is a relevance. Yesterday, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport started the interview process for Sport Ireland. The Public Appointments Service has been inundated with applications for Irish Rail, Dublin Bus, NTA and Bus Éireann. I have applied for one of the positions so, fingers crossed, a lucky board could have me working with it.

I call Deputy O'Keefe and then Deputy Barry.

I do not think the witness will get an easy offer from Mr. O'Leary.

I welcome the opportunity to listen to the deliberations and I thank the people for coming in and taking time out to attend. This is being broadcast live and there are plenty of people watching us at the moment.

We have had these discussions over the last few months with the various interest groups and we welcome the further submissions.

Mr. Delaney raised a few issues from my own back yard about Horgan's Quay in Cork city which is a bit of a joke. I would suggest, Chairman, that the secretary might forward the snag list of Mr. Delaney's letter to the NTA for further comment. We are totally in agreement as to problems and we should have further comment from the NTA on the whole issue; it might refer back then to the respective operators.

On taxis, I know that Mr. Delaney wants to make every public transport vehicle wheelchair accessible. We need to be careful. Any taxi that would be disability accessible would be mostly a minibus type vehicle.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Correct.

How would one get a wheelchair-----

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Very simple, I will answer in three words: London taxi cab. Every one of them is wheelchair accessible. There is the Deputy's answer - they are not minibuses.

They are historic-----

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

No, they are not, they are brand new. Every single taxi in London, the black cabs and the metro cabs are all wheelchair accessible.

With regard to private operator access, I have concerns there. As recently as a month ago, I had parents of a child in a wheelchair whose class went off to Clare on a school trip. The child in the wheelchair could not go because there was no access facilitation for the wheelchair which was annoying.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Mr. O'Leary will confirm that a lot of the school transport fleet is cascading down from public service obligation, PSO, vehicles and the old vehicles do not have wheelchair lifts. A small number of the yellow low-floor buses was purchased in 2006. It is going to take probably 20 years before one has any hope of a wheelchair accessible bus. There is a crazy situation in the Department of Education and Skills, where if there are two siblings, one on the autistic spectrum and the other not on the spectrum, the sibling not on the spectrum cannot travel with the autistic person; if this was allowed, it could act as a relaxant rather than a stressor for the child. This means applying basic cop-on and a change.

With regard to Horgan's Quay, the Chairman indicated earlier that the committee would go on a little trip. I have a little present for members when the committee comes down to Cork. One of the committee - Deputy Barry will be excluded because he lives in the city - will be invited to use a wheelchair and see how he or she can get around from Horgan's Quay and try to get up the Lower Glanmire Road. Pádraic said he has tried it before, and it took 25 minutes in a power wheelchair to get from Horgan's Quay on to Railway Street - Mr. O'Leary knows that one can climb up that hill and down. One of the committee members can do this. I know Paul, Etaoine and Jo are delighted that they will not be the ones using the wheelchair.

I thank Mr. Delaney. Mr. O'Leary is attacking the local authorities, but the local authorities only provide the planning and the permits if the works need to be done. It is like blaming local authorities if there is a water leak. Just because something is located on public property one blames the county councils. I know where he is coming from and in fairness I was a member of a local authority for a good number of years and I can see the need to make the footpaths wheelchair accessible, and accessible too for people with guide dogs. On the issue of bus stops, unless funding is provided, they cannot build these bus stops. For example, in Ballincollig, they are looking for two or three bus stops. How many should they be given, health and safety wise?

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

Can I say in answer to Deputy O'Keeffe that my criticisms of the local authorities and the NTA and Government in general on this issue in particular are not an attack on them as individuals, but everyone passes the buck as to who is and is not responsible for infrastructure? The point I am making here - and maybe the committee should take it on board and do something about it effectively - is that someone should be given full responsibility for providing the infrastructure around bus stops for people with disabilities and be done with it. Whoever it is can then be lobbied and go to those people and say the infrastructure is not adequate. That body, be it the National Transport Authority or the local authority, can then lobby central government for funds to do that. That is the point I am making there.

In terms of the points made to Mr. Delaney on accessibility, always remember one thing, there are a lot of commercial bus services that received licences from the National Transport Authority, commercial bus operators with fairly new fleets in many cases that are not wheelchair accessible either. It is important to remember the State has a responsibility here in the issuing of licences.

I came in today on a good news story and I want to leave on one. My criticism is hopefully constructive. Someone needs to take responsibility, that is all I am saying.

The good news is that hopefully we are making progress in making public and private transport more accessible to people with disabilities. I commend Ms Hill on her initiative and I hope it will spread down south - from my own political background that is how I will put it. Get the word out there; I thank the witnesses and wish them the best of luck.

I call Deputy Barry.

I am sure that every chief executive officer of every State transport company in the country paused for a moment when they heard that Mr. Delaney is applying to go on to the board.

They will love him for that-----

I would like to be a fly on the wall at some of those meetings when it comes to pass.

The demand for just one person with a disability on the board of State transport companies is a very modest demand It is basic common sense, apart from anything else. Obviously it is not an end itself but may assist towards sorting out the issues and problems that exist. The disability campaigners and the trade unions representing the staff are natural allies in sorting these issues out. One could look at the issue in terms of two things, culture and funding.

If we start with the funding, in my view and I have said it before, the single biggest blow that has been struck against the interests of people with disabilities in the realm of transport in the past ten years has been austerity cutbacks. One can see that graphically, in respect of train stations and Dart stations, where one has stations which were previously staffed but no longer are staffed. What does that mean for a person who arrives in a wheelchair and wants to get on to public transportation by means of a ramp etc.? This idea of ringing up hours in advance or having to go to every third station is nonsense. What is good for the staff in employment terms is good for the people with disabilities in terms of assistance with access, as is their right to public transport. That is just a small example of how the interests of one group coincides with the interests of the other.

Many of the cultural issues also come down to finance at the end of the day.

People need to be educated and trained. The staff are, by and large, very good and, in some cases, are tremendous on that front. There is always room for improvement. No trade union representative would say other than that. That improvement can be achieved, in large measure, by investment in training and that is how one tackles the problems.

The only other question I will ask is a little from left field, but I suppose that is my territory anyway.

Here we go.

Aside from public transport companies dealing with people with disabilities who are accessing the services, I am curious as to the situation of people with disabilities who work for the companies. There are some disabilities that would make it very difficult to do some of the jobs involved in public transport, but obviously there is a significant number of people with disabilities who work in the transport companies. I would be interested to hear from the trade union representatives as to what is the record of the companies in that regard and where, if at all, there is room for improvement.

Mr. Dermot O'Leary

Not unlike other semi-State companies, the CIÉ group of companies has a proud record of employing people with disabilities. A certain percentage, with which the Deputy will be familiar, must be employed. There is an obligation on the semi-State companies, in particular. I believe the record is quite good on that. The difficulties we have with the companies on the disability issue in general is about the accessibility issue about which there is no doubt. We have covered some of that in our submission, as did Mr. Delaney and Ms Hill. The Deputy as well as everyone else knows that funding plays a huge part in the ability of the companies to facilitate accessibility. That is a huge issue which the Deputy touched upon himself in this opening remarks. In the past ten years alone, €100 million has come out of the subvention to public transport in this country. People and politicians as well sometimes think that this reduction - and we speak about it a lot - is just about workers' wages. It is not just about that; it is about the rights the Deputy has spoken about, where the plethora of unmanned stations, as I said in my submission, has now mushroomed directly as a result of a reduction of the workforce and, by extension, a reduction of the funding.

I am aware I did not answer the Deputy's question as directly as he might wish. The CIÉ companies - we do knock them at times - are the employers and we are the employees' representative but we tend to circle the wagons when it comes issues like this concerning their ability to employ people with disabilities and we try to work with them in relation to access for people with disabilities.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Can I come back to Deputy Barry there please? He made a comment that chief executives might have an intake of breath when they heard that I was applying for the boards-----

It was meant as a compliment.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

I am glad because I was going to clarify that, because as far as I know under the rules, I am entitled to respect and I would ask that the same respect that I have given to the Deputy might be extended to me. One of the chief executives said that if I was to be selected or so offered, they would welcome me for the simple reason of the way I have interacted with them.

We have a scenario now where at the public transport forum I was surprised to have the chair of Dublin Bus come looking for me. The chair of Dublin Bus asked me how things are with the disability sector in Dublin Bus and I said they were fine. The next thing he looked me straight in the face and asked what is the real situation. I said I had a great relationship with Ms Dolores Henchin, who has been fantastic and Ms Hill and I will be meeting Ms Henchin and Mr. Ray Hernan after this. He insisted on giving me his personal email so that if there were any issues that I needed to bring to his attention I could do so.

The Deputy raised another issue about Irish Rail. Automatic ramps need to be put in so that people can access the ramps. One presses a button and that is retrofitted. I will be meeting Mr. Liam Kenny this afternoon. This may sound like overkill but it is a fact. Since Mr. Jim Meade went in there has basically been a volte-face. A full review of all way-guidance signage in the station has been launched. I was invited to a meeting on that. I was asked for my opinions and whether I recommend people. The construct of the disability access group is being reviewed.

I forgot to mention changing places. If one is in the North, one sees these in shopping centres. These are changing places for an adult who may be incontinent. There is a hoist built into the ceiling and the person can be taken out of the wheelchair and changed. That should be mandatory in any transport hub, so that one people with those sorts of disabilities can travel and avail of these facilities.

On what Mr. O'Leary said earlier, wheelchair accessible bus stops in the Cork area have been withdrawn from service and non-wheelchair accessible bus stops have been put in. An NBRU member, Seán Murphy, highlighted that fact to great effect. He has recently retired but he was fantastic. Mr. Tim O'Leary, who is the acting services manager in Capwell bus station, Cork, has started engaging with people with disabilities and with Cork Association for Autism. I do not know if this is being read by the chief executive but those who know me know I do not plámás people. I say it as I see it and that is a trait of Asperger's syndrome. There is no filter and one simply comes straight out with something. I can stand over everything I say.

Does Deputy Barry wish to come in?

On a point of clarification, and in case there is any confusion, the point I am made about Mr. Delaney applying for the boards is that the job of someone representing people with disabilities on a board is, in part, to keep a chief executive officer on his or her toes. I believe anyone who knows Mr. Delaney would know that whatever else he will do, he will be keeping them on their toes. What I said was a compliment and I wanted to clarify that.

I agree. I have just a few questions. JAM is a very important and useful card to have. This question concerns the definition of who can and cannot carry it. I refer to somebody who may be of advanced years and might be confused as opposed to having a medical issue, and I am trying to use the right words here. How does one deal with that issue? For example, if someone is 85 years of age and does not have a physical disability but may have some hearing loss, how does it work?

Ms Diane Hill

Going forward, the back of the card will no longer state someone has a learning difficulty. Before we would have specified whether it was dementia or brain injury. Going forward, it will just state a condition because there is no reason to specify what that communication issue is.

I would agree, absolutely.

Ms Diane Hill

It is just the fact somebody may have a communication barrier and they need that patience.

That is what will be written on it. What does it cost? It is a wonderful idea and it make a lot of sense. It makes one think and say one had better pay attention here. What would it cost to introduce it here? Who would have to pay for that service? I presume it would be the witness's group.

Ms Diane Hill

At the moment, we issue the cards for free because we want everyone to use them and to make as much impact with them as possible. The organisations pay for their staff to be trained on JAM card and that is around disability in general. They pay for it and we use our reserve from that to pay for the cards.

If we were to introduce it in the South, we would have to get the consent of the transport operator to recognise it and that is why the buy-in from the unions is so important. What should we recommend to make this work?

Ms Diane Hill

What we would do is we would work with each organisation on the number of employees they have who are front-facing, what buses they have and all of the information around that. We would want to market each individual bus to make sure that they are promoting the use of it and what training they require, as a plan, to ensure that everyone is aware of what JAM card is and how they support disabilities.

To do this, we would have to recommend to the transport operators, public and private, that they would have to work with the witness's group on this.

Ms Hill made the point that people sometimes get confused when they hear noises they cannot interpret. In terms of best practice, what should the committee be recommending? Noises can be confusing for elderly people as well.

Ms Diane Hill

Consultation with people who have autism and learning difficulties on the model of supports they need is vital. We engage on an ongoing basis with our participants regarding their needs. It is not okay to assume what is required for them.

That is true.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

I will send the clerk to the committee a link to an 85-second YouTube video by the National Autistic Society in London for circulation to members. I ask members to listen to it via headphones on full volume. This will give them a flavour of what it is like for me and other members of the autistic community to survive everyday life. I am regularly seen out and about wearing headphones. When sensory issues become too much, I put on noise-cancelling headphones. When I am travelling on Irish Rail, I wear noise-cancelling headphones that cost me €199. I ask members to try to listen to the video for the 85 seconds, although I guarantee they will not be able to do so. I have asked other people to listen to it and after about 40 seconds they pulled the headphones off because it is so intense.

Irish Rail has improved its signage. If a bus is decaled it has to travel on the route. I will give an example. Yesterday, on my way here I saw a single decker bus, number 233, which at the front of it displayed Macroom as its destination but on the side displayed Frankfield as the destination. In other words, at the front of the bus the destination was west Cork but on the side it was different destination. That is an issue.

It would be remiss of me not to compliment those involved in broadcasting the hearing attended by Mr. Padraic Moran and Ms Alannah Murray on the transport issues for wheelchair users. People who watched the video of it have commented that it has helped them to understand and get the message.

That work was done by the broadcasting unit.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

A number of people have said it made a huge difference. If there are issues on which the committee would like clarification following the meeting they should not hesitate to contact us or Senator John Dolan.

I thank Mr. Delaney. The committee's deliberations today are crucial in terms of its report, which we hope to launch prior to the summer recess. If the witnesses would like to attend the launch they are welcome to do so. Their views and recommendations are enlightening and they will help us in compiling that report. The JAM card, which people can show rather than having to speak, is important and will, I believe, work well for many people.

The committee is due to meet representatives from the NTA next week. The RSA and An Garda Síochána will also attend but to discuss a different matter. We will invite the NBRU in as soon as possible thereafter, if that is okay.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

The committee might raise the issue of Operation Enable with An Garda Síochána, which is about keeping disabled parking bays and footpaths clear. The NBRU has been supportive of this campaign.

I assure the witnesses that every member of the committee takes this matter seriously. I hope that our report will meet their aspirations.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 June 2018.
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