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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 1923

Vol. 1 No. 17

OIREACHTAS STAFF. - MESSAGE FROM THE DÁIL.

Do ritheadh an run so leanas ag Dáil Eireann agus ba mhian leo aontú Sheanaid Eireann leis:—
"Go gceaptar an tAire Airgid agus an Ceann Comhairle ar Bhuan-Choiste chun uimhir, gráduíocht, luach saothair agus téarmaí oifige Fuireann an Oireachtais do shocrú; agus go n-iartar ar Sheanad Eireann ball den tSeanad d'ainmniú chun gníomhú ar an gCoiste seo."
Dáil Eireann has passed the following resolution to which the agreement of Seanad Eireann is desired:—
"That the Minister for Finance and the Ceann Comhairle be appointed to a Standing Committee to determine the number, grading, remuneration and terms of office of the Oireachtas Staff, and that Seanad Eireann be requested to nominate a member of the Seanad to act on this Committee."

I beg to move that the message from the Dáil be approved of.

I beg to second that.

I would like to know before voting for this motion whether this Committee will report back to the Seanad when they agree upon the recommendations. It seems a rather peculiar form of procedure for us to nominate a representative and at the same time receive no report, and, to that extent, have no responsibility for the actions of our representative upon that Committee. The motion as it is tabled makes no provision for reporting back, and it would look as if in appointing a representative we are giving him full power to act without retaining any authority or responsibility for his action.

Every Committee surely must report to us before their report is adopted. No Committee has absolute power to decide without referring back to the appointing body.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

If Senator Bennett is raising that as a point of order, I do not think he is correct. I think the Seanad is entitled, if it thinks fit, to appoint a member to act for it. It is entirely a matter of how the appointment is made. If the Seanad agrees with the point made by Senator O'Farrell, then, I think, a slight amendment should be made to the effect that the message from the Dáil is approved and it is decided to appoint a Senator on the Committee, subject to his reporting to the Seanad before agreeing to any definite proposals.

If you appoint a Committee, and they make certain suggestions, do you rule that they need not refer back their report for consideration?

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

I say the Committee, or the appointment made by the Seanad, is governed by its own terms of reference, whatever they may be, and the Seanad is entitled to give such power or to withhold such power, as it thinks fit.

Is the Seanad to have only one representative on this Committee, the member who will be nominated here to-day? Who composes that Standing Committee? Would it be adequate representation that we should only appoint one of our members on the Committee?

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

That is a matter for the Seanad.

I beg to move that the Chairman of the Seanad be appointed on the Committee. He will be in a minority always on the Committee.

I think it is perfectly clear if the Seanad agrees with this message on the Order Paper that it gives its representative plenary power. If, on the other hand, the Seanad desires to make the point suggested by Senator O'Farrell that it should have the right to review the findings of this Committee, obviously it must take the ordinary precautions. As you have very rightly pointed out, it must amend this proposition, and therefore an amendment ought to be added at the end of the resolution by adding the words "subject to the Seanad's approval of their report." I imagine the Seanad would rather like that, so as to know what is the nature of the report. To put the matter in order, I beg to move that these words be added to the resolution.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

The proposal suggested was that the Committee should do more than simply report. The form in which the amendment is moved would, I think, scarcely meet the whole difficulty.

Should not the word "to" in the motion be "as"? Is there a Standing Committee already in existence to which these persons are appointed or do they constitute the Standing Committee?

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

I understand this is a proposal from the Dáil that a Joint Standing Committee should be appointed to which we are asked to nominate one member.

What is the nature of the Standing Committee of the Dáil? From the resolution it seems to me to consist of two people, the Minister for Finance and the Ceann Comhairle. I think they ask us to appoint one member.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

Possibly the President would help us in the matter.

The idea is that the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach or any other member of the Seanad would be appointed with the Minister for Finance to decide these questions. Ordinarily all the various departments as far as the personnel and the staff are concerned are to some extent under the supervision of the Ministry for Finance —that is to say, sanction to the necessary payments is dealt with by one particular section of the Ministry for Finance, called the Establishment Section. Now, in this case it is necessary, in order to avoid duplication and unnecessary expense that some accommodation should be reached as between the two bodies forming the Oireachtas, and it appears to the Ministry of Finance and the Dáil that the most expeditious and best possible way of dealing with it is by simply having a Committee of three. To some extent, in fact entirely, it indicates that the position of the Oireachtas is different from that of the other parts of the Government under the organisation of the Government control and so on. It is a matter for arrangement, so that the two bodies having so much in common may work harmoniously together to limit expenditure. They will be enabled to do it by those means, and this is the only machinery.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

The question was asked whether it was the desire that this Committee should virtually have plenary powers.

I should say that is so; there is no necessity for reporting back on these matters.

After the President's statement, I beg to move that the Chairman of the Seanad be appointed to the Committee. In my opinion it is not our place to issue any instruction to the Committee; that would be going beyond our powers, and we should leave the whole matter to them.

I do not agree with the Amendment. I think the suggestion contained in the message from the Dáil is most satisfactory. It is a sensible proposition. It is a businesslike way of doing the work, and we ought to accept it and appoint a member of the Seanad as requested. I do not think it is our business to recommend that the Committee should report back.

I quite approve of Senator Farren's suggestion.

I should like to say that I am not in agreement with the last speakers. It is desirable that both the Seanad and the Dáil should know what is being done in this matter. Any Committees appointed by the Seanad ought to be free to do what they like but at the same time any conclusions arrived at should be subject to the agreement of the Seanad. That should be purely a matter of general principle.

The usual procedure with regard to the Civil Service generally is that a particular department applies to the Minister for Finance for whatever staff is required. During my experience in the last six or eight months there has been no dispute, no differences, no misunderstanding, as between the Ministry of Finance and other Ministries. In essence it comes to this, that in the event of differences the Minister enters either on one side or the other and the matter is settled once for all. There is a disadvantage, to my mind in having the report from this Committee submitted to the Dáil or Seanad. Obviously we do not want differences over minor matters of this kind between the two bodies. It may happen that on a particular matter the Dáil would want B instead of A, and the Seanad might want A instead of B, and then a deadlock would occur. It is to avoid that condition of things that this suggestion is made. It is made in good faith in order to facilitate matters and to get on without any differences between the two Houses. That, I think, is the general desire of the members of both Houses.

I do not think the President need be in the least bit alarmed that by reason of this amendment of mine we are going to have a constitutional conflict. We are just as anxious as he is that the relations between the Dáil and the Seanad should continue to be on the most amicable possible basis. I do not think there is the smallest likelihood of anything to the contrary resulting from this particular situation. The trouble about all those things is, we never know what we are going to be asked to do next. This resolution appears on the Paper this morning, and we do not know what exactly the thing means. In all these references by any Legislature to any Committee, or in most references of any business corporation to a committee of its own, there always is implied the right to ratify the arrangements arrived at, and in this the Seanad is asking that what we should agree to do is to know what the decision of this Committee is, and I have no doubt, from the composition of the Committee, there will be such recommendations as we will gladly accept. We do not know what this Committee is going to do. "The Standing Committee is to determine the number, grading, remuneration, and terms of office of the Oireachtas staff." That means that all the gentlemen appointed as officers of the Seanad are going to be brought into this category. Are they going to be put into the melting pot again? We should have some explanation as to what this proposal means. It is because we are in doubt that the Seanad would like to know something of the decisions arrived at before it ratifies them finally. Whatever happens, we shall be held responsible. Whatever arrangements are made should be the arrangements of the Seanad. I hope nobody will think I am endeavouring to prevent the Seanad from being represented on this Joint Committee. It ought to be, and as soon as we decide the terms of reference we shall appoint our representative to that Committee. I submit, inasmuch as we do not know what this Conference is going to do, and inasmuch as we have had short notice of it, we are handing all this over to this Committee, and are agreeing beforehand to whatever they subsequently decide.

I want to point out that the Committee is to determine the number, grading, remuneration, and terms of office of the Oireachtas staff.

We have fixed already the remuneration of certain officers appointed, and fixed their grading. If there are other officers to be appointed, I say the Seanad should have a say in the appointment of those other officers in so far as it is concerned itself. Supposing it happened that they did commit themselves, the Seanad would be very foolish by-and-by. Therefore I think our amendment is necessary and proper.

Amendment put and negatived.

The nomination of members to the Oireachtas staff is not left in the power of the Seanad at all. It is purely the grading. No one can be foisted on either House without permission as before. There is nothing about a nomination.

Question put, and agreed to

I move that Lord Glenavy be appointed to this Committee without any instructions from us I would leave all matters in the discretion of that Committee.

I second the motion.

Does that mean that he is appointed as Chairman, not as Lord Glenavy? In the event of this Committee being permanent, I take it the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad would have to be represented on that Standing Committee.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

I think that is what it would mean.

I should like to know whether this is going to be a permanent arrangement, or if it is for a purpose that may finish to-morrow or the next day.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

That is a matter which An Cathaoirleach will have to interpret.

I take it that by the terms of the resolution we are setting up a permanent body.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

There is no appointment which the Seanad makes which it cannot undo if it wishes.

Question put and agreed to.
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