As regards this section, I desire to ask how this special fund is to be made out. I would be glad to have some information on the matter.
THIRD STAGE. - THE SEANAD IN COMMITTEE.
Sections 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 were passed and added to the Bill.
SECTION 13.—(CONSTITUTION OF SPECIAL ACCOUNT).
I would like to support Senator Bennett in asking for some information as regards the cost of this Bill. The copy of the Bill in my hand is the copy that was originally introduced in the Dáil. I have not got a revised copy of the Bill, and I would like to know how much the carrying out of this measure is going to cost the State. I observe from the Estimates that there is a sum of £348,663 allocated for the purpose of carrying out this Act. In addition to that, it would be well to know how much goes out of the fund from the contributions of the employers and the employees, so that we may be able to ascertain whether the cost of working this Bill is in proportion to the sum to be paid out in benefits or not—that is to say, whether it costs a large or a small sum to distribute the benefits that this Act is supposed to give to the people concerned, and whether it is an expensive or a cheap Act to work.
This is a case in which all moneys to the credit of Irish members resident in the Saorstát, and at present insured in English Societies, will have to be discovered by means of an actuarial investigation, and having discovered them, they are to be paid into funds here in respect of the persons affected. And, conversely, persons living in England or in Northern Ireland who are members of Approved Societies in the Saorstát, their funds will be subject to the same analysis and segregation, and transfer will be made of the moneys due to the Irish members who are transferred here, and the money due to the others will be transferred across. I do not know whether that answers the points raised.
I am quite satisfied.
Question: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
SECTION 14.—(CONSTITUTION OF THE MILITARY FORCES (INTERNATIONAL ARRANGEMENTS) INSURANCE FUND.)
Here we have an actual compilation of the amount of the fund for Ireland. Has that been arrived at by actuarial calculation, or is it by arrangement?
It was after actuarial investigation.
The position about the transfer values of membership has already been settled under the various Insurance Acts that have been passed. Members have been transferred from one Society to another at different periods, and every member has what is known as a reserve value, and if that is based upon an actuarial estimate you know exactly what the transfer value of each member is. Therefore, when members transfer from a Society here to one at the other side, or vice versa, you easily know what their transfer value is.
Question: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Sections 15 to 26, inclusive, put and agreed to.
In connection with unused stamps, apparently an arrangement is being made by which these can be returned. I take it that unused insurance stamps can be handed in somewhere, and that the holders can be recouped for the cost of their purchase. I would be glad that the public should know that if there are any such stamps they will be able to get back the money they paid for them rather than have them incorporated in a fund which is going to benefit the people in the future.
It will be arranged by the Insurance Commissioners that they will meet what the Senator has raised with regard to that matter. If the stamps are sent to them they will arrange it.
Sections 27, 28, 29, and 30 agreed to.
An CATHAOIRLEACH
Senator Linehan, I hope I have not excluded you, because I understood that you were moving an amendment to some clause, but you have not risen. Do you wish to move an amendment to any of these clauses?
I intended to move an amendment to the part of the principal Act which makes it incumbent upon an employer to deduct weekly the amount of the employee's contribution, so that if he did not do it in that week he had no power to deduct it at any subsequent time. The amendment, of which I have sent in a rough draft—I did not know we would be at the Committee Stage of this Bill this afternoon—is merely to provide that in the case of a permanent employee—a man in regular permanent employment—the employer would be entitled to deduct——
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Pardon me, Senator. This is a little out of order. To what section or clause of the Bill would it be appropriate?
It refers to a section in the Act of 1911.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Well, we cannot amend that in the Committee Stage of a Bill of 1923.
But this Bill is amending that. The Bill before the House proposes to amend the Act of 1911.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I do not want to shut you out at all, having regard to the fact that the Bill has been more or less sprung upon us, and therefore I am anxious to meet you in every way; but if you want to move an amendment of that sort you must tell me to what section or to what clause of this Bill you propose to move it. Where do you suggest it should go in?
I have not the Act of 1911 before me at present. If I had it I could tell you. As I say, I was not prepared to put forward an amendment this afternoon. I thought I would have time, in the discussion in the Committee Stage of this Bill to-morrow or on a future occasion, to go into this matter.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
You see, you acquiesced in our taking the Committee Stage of the Bill to-day, and when you acquiesced in that I thought you would be prepared to move your amendment.
If you will permit me I will move the amendment on the Report Stage.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
If you can frame your amendment, I will give you every facility.
In connection with what Senator Linehan has said, I think, from my own experience, that it is a most important thing that such an amendment should be added, but would it not be better in the form of a new clause altogether?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Then the convenient place would be on the Report Stage, so that as you and Senator Linehan are both interested in it, if you put your heads together—in a friendly way, I mean—you might elaborate a new clause.
What I drew attention to is under Section 28, and I am afraid I must have seemed rather mixed when I referred to Section 26, which really is 28.
I wish to call attention to Part I. of the general interpretation, line 39: "The expression ‘Great Britain' shall be deemed to include Northern Ireland." I do not think that we ought to allow that to go. Northern Ireland opted itself out of the Free State, but it has not opted itself out of Ireland.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Do you think it worth while our going back? We have passed that clause, and, while I do not want to shut you out too rigorously, you were not here when we reached that clause. Perhaps I ought not to be too strict; but do you think that, for the sake of this particular point that you are raising, it is worth our while going back on what we have already done?
I think it is well worth while.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Could not you reserve it, then, for the Report Stage?
Question put: "That this Bill, as considered in Committee, be reported to the House."
Agreed.