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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 1923

Vol. 1 No. 30

LAND TRUST POWERS BILL, 1923. - SECOND STAGE.

When the Act confirming the Constitution of Saorstat Eireann was going through the British Parliament there was also an Act passed known as the Irish Free State (Consequential Provisions) Act. One of the provisions of that Act provided for the setting up of a body to be called the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust, to carry out work that had been previously undertaken by the Soldiers and Sailors Department of the Local Government Board. That Department was occupied in the provision of houses with plots of land for men who had served in the British Army or the British Navy during the European War. Certain schemes had been promulgated and adopted. These schemes were not carried out in full when the Treaty was signed and when the Irish Free State Agreement Act was passed. Some portion of the work on the uncompleted schemes was done by the officials of the old Soldiers and Sailors Department acting directly under the British Treasury. With the passing of the Constitution a new position arose. It would not have been easy, even if it had been possible, to have a British Government Department carrying out any function in the Saorstát. At the same time it certainly was desirable that provision should be made so that the work which had been begun of providing for these men, having regard to the promises given them time and again by British statesmen, should be continued. The device adopted was the setting up of a Trust consisting of five members, three representing the British Government, one representing the Government of Northern Ireland, and one representing the Government of Saorstát Eireann. It is provided in the Bill that as soon as legislation has been passed by the Parliament of Northern Ireland—which I believe has already passed this legislation—and by the Oireachtas of the Saorstát enabling the Trust to carry on its functions, and hold Land in the Saorstát, that a sum of £1,500,000 would be available for the work of the Trust. That will certainly provide a very considerable number of houses throughout Ireland. There is no provision in the Bill as to the way that money will be apportioned between the Six Counties and the portion of Ireland under the jurisdiction of Saorstát Eireann, but certainly on any basis a very much larger proportion of it is bound to be expended in our territory. The need for houses for every section of the population is very great. We all know that within the Saorstát 30,000 or 40,000 houses are wanted. It will be a great asset to this State to have this money made available for the provision of houses, apart altogether from the carrying out of the pledges given the men who will actually be put into them. That there should be money made available for the proper housing of any section of the citizens of the Saorstát is extremely desirable having regard to the great need for houses that exists. The Government propose when the Trust has been formally set up to nominate a respected member of this Seanád, General Sir Bryan Mahon, as the Saorstát representative on the Trust and I believe he has consented to act. The trust would have no compulsory powers to acquire land. If it does find it necessary at any time to have resort to compulsion, for the purpose of getting suitable sites at reasonable prices, these compulsory powers will be exercised through the Minister for Local Government at his discretion. I do not anticipate, nor do I think the people associated with this work in the past anticipate that it will be necessary anywhere to have land acquired compulsorily. I know that they have offers of very desirable sites in or in the neighbourhood of Dublin and other places on exceedingly reasonable terms, but in case we should find any attempt to make a ring and to rob the Trust, compulsory powers to acquire sites will be available and will be exercised, if it seems in all the circumstances that they should be exercised by the Ministry of Local Government at the request of the Trust.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he could tell us if in the original English Bill of 1919, any limitation was laid down as to the amount of land that was to be attached to these cottages. The reason I ask is that when this matter was discussed in the Dáil one Deputy said he knew of instances where 30 acres had been allotted in one case and 5 acres in another case. As there are 1,500 houses expected to be built under the Bill, I do not know if there was anything in the original English Bill dealing with the limitation of land to be attached to them. I suppose the administration and the regulations will rest with the Trust and the Minister for Local Government.

I am afraid I could hardly inform the Senator at the moment, whether there are any restrictions in the Act of 1919. Certainly there will be no such thing as acquiring 30 acres of land for anyone in future. The funds at the disposal of the Trust would not enable them to do that. If they chose to do it they would have to do it by voluntary agreement, as no compulsory powers would be used to acquire land to the extent of 30 acres to give to anyone. If the Trust were to be so foolish as to do so it would be hardly our concern, but I think there is no chance that it would happen. The Trust will have to carry on its work in accordance with the regulations made by the British Treasury, and I am sure the British Treasury would not allow money to be spent in such a way. The general complaint is that there is not nearly enough and provided to build the houses that have been promised.

I should like to ask the Minister whether the million and a half, which I understand is available for this purpose, is to be spent entirely and solely on the building of houses to be occupied by soldiers and sailors of the Imperial service or whether the money could be diverted to other purposes?

It must be spent solely for soldiers and sailors who served in the European War.

Might I ask the Minister if he has any information regarding some of the houses already built for this purpose? Is any limit fixed as to the rents to be charged for these houses? From the information I have received of houses built in the immediate vicinity of Dublin the rents have been so high that the soldiers and sailors cannot afford to pay and other people, who were not soldiers and sailors, are getting into the houses. Of course, the people who are paying the money have the right to call the tune, and it is not right that we should interfere, but I think, if the money has been specially earmarked for the purpose of providing houses for soldiers and sailors, these houses should be built at a rent which soldiers and sailors can afford to pay.

The houses already built will come under the control of the Trust as soon as it is set up, and if there are any complaints I think the Senator should attack his brother Senator.

As I understand it, if land is to be acquired compulsorily the Local Government Department is practically the court to fix the price. Is there no court of appeal? I merely ask the question because I know what happened in the attempt to acquire land compulsorily for the same purpose under the British Government. I know a case of a townland in Meath where it was sought to acquire compulsorily 500 acres for £5,000. When the owner objected it was immediately raised to £10.000. He still thought that this was not an adequate sum and appealed to Judge Ross. The sum fixed by Judge Ross, after hearing evidence, was £16,000 whereupon the Land Commission withdrew. I think there ought to be some appeal from the Local Government Department to a court where evidence could be heard on the part of the owner.

I take it that there is that appeal. The power will be the same power that the Local Government Board had for acquiring land under the Labourers Acts to provide sites for labourers' cottages.

Motion made and question put "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Agreed.

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