Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jul 1923

Vol. 1 No. 32

ACCOMMODATION FOR OIREACHTAS.

An CATHAOIRLEACH

I propose that we should, in the first instance, take into account a communication I have received from the Clerk of the Dáil in the following terms:—

"Dáil Eireann have directed me to acquaint Seanad that they have appointed a Committee to consist of the Ceann Comhairle, the Minister for Local Government, Deputies Burke, Hughes, McGarry, Murphy, Gorey, Johnson, Davin, and Magennis (five to form a quorum) to join with a Committee of Seanad Eireann to consider how suitable accommodation for the Oireachtas may best be provided and to examine such plans as may be submitted to them, and it is an instruction to the Committee to report upon the matters submitted to them at their earliest convenience, but not later than the 27th July; and to request that Seanad Eireann will be pleased to appoint an equal number of Senators to be joined with the Deputies of Dáil Eireann."

In view of that communication I think it is essential that we should now proceed to appoint a Committee which will act jointly with the Committee of the other House. It is not stated precisely in this communication that it is to be a Joint Committee but it is stated that they are to work jointly, which may practically come to the same thing. At the same time I think it is framed deliberately to preserve, if necessary, the separate action of each Committee. Accordingly I suggest to the Seanad that they should now proceed with the appointment of a Committee of their own House, corresponding in number with that selected by the Dáil, and with the instructions to the Dáil Committee—that is to say, that they should report upon the matter at their earliest convenience, but not later than the 27th July. I suggest that the following members of the Seanad form a Committee to act in accordance with this communication: Senator Sir J. Griffith, Senator Guinness, Senator Mrs. Stopford Green, Senator Mrs. Wyse Power, Senator O'Farrell, Senator Yeats, Senator de Loughrey, Senator McKean, the Deputy Chairman and myself.

Mr. YEATS

I propose that that Committee be formed. I think that it should be clearly understood that in appointing this Committee, or in agreeing to sit upon it, we do not in any way commit ourselves to any decision about the site. I understand that plans are being prepared for Kilmainham, but I think it must be understood that we are quite free to object to that site, even as a temporary site. I do not say that I would recommend that, but we must go into it quite freely. I think most of us have a feeling that it is undesirable that Kilmainham should be the permanent site of an Irish Parliament. People coming up from the country, we feel, will want to find themselves nearer the Parliament than they would be if you put it out into a remote suburb.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Might I suggest to you, Senator Yeats, that this is not exactly the occasion for entering into a general discussion on the subject. That discussion will inevitably arise when we get the Committee's report. The question now before the House is simply whether we ought, in response to this communication from the Clerk of the Dáil, to appoint a Committee to act in co-operation with the Committee already appointed with the other House.

Mr. DOUGLAS

Would it be in order if I pointed out that I had a communication from the Ceann Comhairle to-day in which he said that lest there should be any misunderstanding he would like to make it quite clear that the Committee was perfectly free to report any way they thought fit, and that they were in no way bound by the terms of reference, and that any references in the Press to-day which might lead one to believe that they were in some way bound were quite incorrect.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I think, Senator Yeats, it would be more convenient if you simply move the motion for the appointment of the Committee and then when their report comes up it will be open to the Seanad to deal with it as they think fit.

Mr. YEATS

The only thing I would like to say is that the time is very short to report. I understand the reason for its urgency, but it is undoubtedly very short, and it may be necessary to take expert opinion. For instance, if we were going to the Royal Hospital temporarily, changes would be made in that building that would be of very great architectural importance, and it might be desirable for us to take expert opinion as to whether the permanent value of the building will be in any way affected by these designs. So I think that it will possibly be necessary for us to ask for an extension of time.

Mr. JAMESON

As regards the Committee, the first name you mentioned was that of Sir John Griffith, and so far as I understand, Sir John Griffith is abroad at present, and I doubt very much if he will be able to act on the Committee. I think, with a small Committee, it would be well, in that case, if you would name somebody else. I think we should be certain that every member of the Committee could be here between now and the 27th.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I had that in view in the selection I made. All the Senators are resident in the vicinity of Dublin with the exception of Senator de Loughrey and Senator McKean, but they represent interests which I think ought to have a representation on this Committee. That is the reason why they have been put on. Would you yourself act in place of Sir John Griffith?

Mr. JAMESON

I think Senator Guinness represents quite as much as any of us. I myself shall not be able to be here this month.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps Senator Sir Nugent Everard will act instead?

Sir NUGENT EVERARD

I shall agree with pleasure.

Mr. JAMESON

Name someone who could act instead of Sir John Griffith, and in the meantime you could find out if he could act.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Our selection to-day must be final, and if Sir Nugent Everard would act, I shall propose him in place of Sir John Griffith. I understand Sir Nugent Everard will act.

Sir NUGENT EVERARD

Yes.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Then the name of Sir Nugent Everard will be substituted for that of Sir John Griffith. Senator Yeats has proposed that that Committee be appointed to act in accordance with the terms of this communication.

DOWAGER COUNTESS of DESART

I have much pleasure in seconding it.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

This is a very important matter, and it may be a question on which very strong feeling prevails. We are all a little in the dark about the situation generally. The Dáil has appointed a Committee, and that is quite right and proper, and it invites us to form a similar Committee. There is only one remark I would like to make about the size of the Committee—they are appointing ten, and we are appointing ten, and that is a very large Committee. If a Committee is really to do business, a smaller Committee would be better. It may be that it was desired to give representation to various interests or various opinions on this Committee, and therefore, it was made a large one. Then, I see that it is to report by the 27th July. That is a little more than a fortnight hence. It does seem to me that that is a very near date to settle a question, which may be of very great importance. I do not know why it is necessary to appoint the 27th of July. Would it not be possible, say, to appoint the 27th August? Is it because it is not convenient to the public that the Dáil and the Seanad should remain in their present location for some weeks or months longer?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

As far as I can gather, Senator Sir Thomas Esmonde, the reason of the pressure is twofold. In the first place, the accommodation existing here is found to be greatly inadequate. In the next place, the public are complaining that they are excluded for such a long period from the National Museum. In addition to that, there is another reason, which I think must be one of considerable urgency. If the Committee is to report in favour, even as a temporary expedient, of the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham, substantial alterations will have to be made, and it will take a considerable time before that building is available, either as a permanent or temporary home of the future Parliament, therefore, the matter is really very urgent on all these grounds.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

Thank you very much. But, with great deference, what I was about to suggest was that inasmuch as we have been sitting here for some time, and inasmuch as the public have been for a certain time excluded from the National Gallery—I know it is very hard upon them, but then these have not been very pleasant times for anybody—would it not be possible to keep the Museum and the Picture Gallery closed in the meantime, although I do not see why the Picture Gallery should not be open, or even portions of the Museum. I should think those new premises would not be required until after the General Election. It is in view of the new Parliament that certain provisions will have to be made. I do not know the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham very well. I have not been there for many years, and I do not know what the accommodation is likely to be, but I should imagine it would not be necessary to make gigantic alterations there. However, that is a matter for the Committee to decide. We are a little bit hazy about the terms of reference, and I do not know exactly what they are.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

They are these. To consider how suitable accommodation for the Oireachtas may best be provided, and to examine such plans as may be submitted to them.

Sir T. ESMONDE

I was not quite clear about this. Is this Committee going to examine into a site for a permanent home for the Legislature. That raises a great issue at once. I take leave to say that I might find myself in very violent conflict with a decision, should it be arrived at, to make the permanent home of the Legislature at Kilmainham. I have not the least objection to this Committee. I welcome inquiry very much indeed, but I do not want to commit myself. I should like to have a perfectly free hand in this matter in case there are other developments of which, individually, I might not approve. If we agree to the appointment of this Committee, I hope it is on the understanding that the Seanad as a whole, retains its full liberty of action to deal with the report of the Committee as it thinks best. I would not like when the report would come before us, to be told that we are committed to some programme or otherwise.

There is a paragraph in a paper which reached me this morning, which may, perhaps, have some significance: "The question whether as an alternative the Bank of Ireland, College Green, should be taken over depends largely on the expenditure which would be involved in compensating the Bank," and so forth. It the question of the Bank of Ireland to come before the Committee? Is the Committee to decide finally on behalf of the Legislature on this question of the future site of the Parliament? Some Senators have spoken to me on the question, and they seem to think that if we decide to go to Kilmainham we may be there for a very long time. I have heard the period of ten years mentioned. If we are going to Kilmainham for ten years. I think we might just as well go to Mountjoy straight off. What I am very anxious about is that we should have complete liberty of action in this matter. I welcome the appointment of the Committee. I welcome inquiry into the whole question. But I know there is very strong feeling on this subject in the country generally, and I do not want, to-morrow or the next day, to be told that either I myself have been committed or that the Seanad, as a body, has been committed to the acceptance of a certain site which might, for our time at all events, be the home of the Irish Legislature. That is what I want to guard against.

Mr. McKEAN

A number of Senators are very much surprised that from the list you read out the name of Senator Sir T. Esmonde has been omitted. It is unfortunate that his name should be left out. Naturally he takes a hereditary interest in the home of the Irish Parliament. His great ancestor watched over the cradle and followed the hearse of the Irish Parliament of 1782. I think we ought to accord him the honour of taking part in the resurrection, or in finding a home for the new Irish Parliament. I propose that his name be added to the Committee.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I could understand the motion if it was proposed to substitute his name for some other name.

Mr. McKEAN

I should not like to do that.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not think we can exceed the number of ten. I do not think it would be desirable to do so.

Mr. J. McLOUGHLIN

Some Senators on the list are not present and may not be able to act. I suggest that you substitute the names of two Senators present for Senator Sir John Keane and Senator de Loughrey.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Senator Sir John Keane is not on it. It is Senator McKean.

Mr. McKEAN

If it is my name that is on it, I wish to have substituted for it that of Senator Sir T. Esmonde.

Sir T. ESMONDE

No, no.

Mr. McKEAN

His knowledge is of a more technical nature than mine, and for that and other reasons I would prefer that his name should be substituted for mine.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That will get rid of any difficulty, and would enable us to have the valuable services of Sir T. Esmonde.

Mr. McKEAN

I did not know it was my name was on the Committee, but as I have discovered that, there is no difficulty in the matter.

Sir T. ESMONDE

This is an amendment I presume to your resolution. Otherwise I cannot speak again on the resolution.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It will not be necessary to put it, as I am sure the Seanad will accept it gladly.

Mr. GUINNESS

Unfortunately I was absent when the names were read out, but I understand that my name is on the Committee. I think it would be inadvisable from various points of view that I should be put on the Committee as, in my official capacity as Governor of the Bank of Ireland, I would be precluded from attending the Committee. I think it would be in the best interests of the Committee that I should not be on it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Is Senator O'Dea prepared to act in place of Senator Guinness?

Mr. O'DEA

I am not, but I want to suggest the name of Senator Barrington, a gentleman of great experience in connection with buildings, and the reconstruction of buildings. I think he would be a most suitable person.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The difficulty about him is that he is not here.

Mr. O'DEA

That is a difficulty that applies to others.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I have endeavoured to avoid that as well as I could. I did not put on the names of any persons living at a distance except those of Senators de Loughrey and McKean. Senator McKean has graciously yielded his place in view of securing the services of Senator Sir T. Esmonde.

Mr. O'DEA

Then I suggest Senator Fitzgerald. He lives in Dublin and has considerable experience of buildings, particularly large buildings. I think he would be a very suitable person.

Mr. J.C. LOVE

I am very sorry that the Senator has withdrawn the name of Senator Barrington. The only flaw I see in the selection is that all the provinces, except Munster, will be represented.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It was in order that the provinces might be fairly represented that it occurred to me to suggest the names of Senators de Loughrey and McKean. I do not know whether Senator Sir T. Esmonde would be pleased or otherwise if I called him a provincial, but his name is now included in the list. If we add to that the name of Senator Barrington, in place of Senator Guinness, then I should think we would have all interests represented. The difficulty is that Senator Barrington may not be able to attend within the next fortnight.

Mr. O'DEA

That may be so, as he may be away. That is the reason I mentioned Senator Fitzgerald's name.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It would be preferable, if possible, to have a Dublin selection.

Mr. McLOUGHLIN

I second the nomination of Senator Fitzgerald.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The list will then stand like this: Senators Sir T. Esmonde, M. Fitzgerald, Mrs. Stopford Green, Mrs. Wyse Power, J.T. O'Farrell, W.B. Yeats, P. de Loughrey, Sir Nugent Everard, J.G. Douglas, and myself.

Mr. T. FARREN

I think it is essential that there should be somebody on the Committee who knows something about building construction. I am not questioning the abilities of those who have been nominated, but Senator McPartlin is an operative in the building trade, and I think he will know as much about building constuction as any other person on the Committee. Apart from location and everything else, it would be essential that there should be somebody who knows something about building construction. Therefore, I move that the name of Senator McPartlin be added to the list.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Are you moving an addition?

Mr. FARREN

No; but I am entitled to move it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I want to know what exactly is your motion?

Mr. FARREN

That Senator McPartlin be made a member of the Committee.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

We cannot accept that unless we alter the Committee.

Mr. FARREN

With all respect I suggest that I have as good a right to nominate a person on the Committee as anybody else.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

You are far too sensitive and you are always imagining——

Mr. FARREN

You are denying me the right to nominate a member.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

No one is questioning your right. I want Senator Farren to understand that so far from wanting to curtail his rights, I was rather going out of my way to help him. If he proposes that the Committee be increased to 11 he can propose the eleventh member. If the Committee is to be confined to 10 it would be necessary for him to move that the name be substituted for someone else.

Mr. FARREN

I suggest that you can take a ballot on the nomination.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

If you want to put the Seanad to that trouble, we can do so. If it is the wish of the Seanad I will leave the whole thing open, and take a ballot, if the Seanad thinks it worth while.

Mr. McPARTLIN

I was going to say that you allowed another Senator to prompt Senator Farren as Senator O'Dea referred to some Senator who had a knowledge of large buildings and another Senator wanted a member from the provinces. I suppose that prompted Senator Farren to think there should be someone else on the Committee. If you are going that far, you might as well select people for their religion, or the town they live in. I do not want to serve on the Committee. I think Senator Farren only wanted to emphasise the fact that every member of the Seanad ought to know a little about everything.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I quite accept it in that spirit, and I hope Senators will justify it.

Motion put and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I understand the Committee will be convened at the earliest opportunity, but it may not be possible to get them together before Tuesday next. If they are to be called together earlier they will be summoned. In any case they will probably be able to give a considerable amount of time to the matter during the next week, as, subject to what I may hear before the Seanad rises to-day, I think it is unlikely we will have business that would entitle me to have a meeting of the Seanad next week. I hope to be able to state that more definitely before the Seanad rises, as, so far as I can see from the state of business in the Dáil, there will not be enough business for us next week.