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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 3 Aug 1923

Vol. 1 No. 39

PUBLIC SAFETY (EMERGENCY POWERS) (No. 2) BILL, 1923.

I regret having to approach the Seanad this morning in view of the circumstances of the last twenty-four hours and to ask consideration of a Bill—the Public Safety (Emergency Powers) (No. 2) Bill, 1923, which the Government has considered it necessary to introduce into the Dáil. The Dáil passed that Bill last night with a resolution declaring that it is necessary for the preservation of the public peace and safety and that the provisions of Article 47 of the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann shall not apply to the Bill. I do not think it is necessary to enter into any elaborate explanation of the causes of the necessity for this Bill to become law without delay and I think a perusal of the morning papers will show at once the vital need for passing this measure so as to enable us to carry on our responsibilities with a view to the preservation of the public peace.

You can quite understand that, with a large number of prisoners, a considerable number of whom would be very active if they were at large just now, and a considerable number of whom are not in a position to accept amnesty—which we are prepared at any moment to extend to them, granted that it is accepted in good faith—we do not consider that we are justified at this moment in bringing forward for the consideration of the Oireachtas an amnesty for prisoners. If we had any hope that it would be received in the same spirit in which it would be made it would be one of the pleasures of our existence to bring it in but we are not so satisfied, and I think from the view of the citizens outside that they would not be satisfied if we were to tamper with the rights we have secured after a long struggle at great expense, loss of blood and treasure to the nation. We have been forced at very short notice to submit this measure to the Oireachtas. We are advised that it will meet the necessities of the case, and I have only to apologise again for having drawn so much on your patience with regard to the consideration of this measure which the circumstances of the last twenty-four hours have rendered absolutely necessary.

We have listened to the President's grave and impressive though short statement, but the Seanad realizes that we are living in critical times and the question that he raises and asks us to decide upon involves wide constitutional issues and for my part, and I imagine I am speaking the feelings of the Seanad, I would very much like to have the benefit of our Chairman's advice on the situation. Therefore if I may be allowed to suggest I think we would be very glad if he would tell us what he thinks and advise us as to how we had better proceed in connection with the subject before us.

Would it not be better to look into the Standing Orders on this matter? What Senator Sir Thomas Esmonde has said is undoubtedly right. There probably never was a case in which our Chairman's advice would be more valuable, but I doubt if he could give it as well from the Chair. I think in this matter Standing Orders regulate the way we should act.

I would like before the Chairman leaves the Chair to know in what respect his advice is sought. Sir Thomas Esmonde asked that he should give us his advice, but he has not stated in what respect. The President seeks to introduce a very important motion and he has stated very briefly his reasons for it. Nobody has spoken for or against that motion so far and I would like to know in what respect the advice of the Chairman is sought. Is it legal advice or advice as an ordinary member of the Seanad?

In my humble judgment the situation before us now involves grave constitutional issues and I think it would be well to have the views of the Chairman with his trained mind and knowledge of these matters.

I support Sir Thomas Esmonde in his suggestion, and I would move that the Chairman leaves the Chair. I think that is in accordance with Standing Orders.

An Cathaoirleach then left the Chair and it was taken by An Leas Chathaoirleach.

Under a Standing Order that was adopted by the Seanad many months ago it is unnecessary that any request should be made to me as a condition precedent to my right to address the Seanad. I have the right conferred upon me under that Standing Order subject only to the condition that I vacate the Chair while addressing the Seanad. Personally I have up to now deliberately avoided taking any advantage of this privilege which the Seanad thought fit to confer on the Chairman not at my request nor at my invitation. I did so deliberately because I think it is in the interests of the Chair not only for its present temporary occupant, but for those who will fill the position hereafter that they should be as little as possible identified with current politics and controversies of the day. It is on that account that even to-day I should not for a moment have thought of intervening in this discussion had it not been for the request that has come to me from the Seanad itself.

Of course it is perfectly obvious that anything I say to you is purely by way of suggestion, not by way of dictation. I have no right to dictate to the Seanad in any way, and I certainly have no desire to do so, but in as much as the Seanad think that I may be, perhaps, in a position to explain clearly to them the constitutional position at which we have arrived and possibly from a lengthy experience to make suggestions to them I have without hesitation acceded to their request. Of course I am not in any way involved with the policy of the Government. I am not a member of the Government. I have no voice in their counsels. I have no responsibility whatever for their policy. At the same time, speaking with the utmost candour, I think it is greatly to be regretted that owing to a certain want of foresight on their part we and the country should find ourselves faced with this grave constitutional position. I do not venture to say anything more by way of criticism because it is very easy to be wise after the event, and I think one has very little cause for surprise when one realizes the tremendous amount of responsibility and work, the difficulties and dangers which beset their path during the last six months. Perhaps we have more cause for surprise that the mistakes they have made should be so few.

The position before the Government to-day as I understand it is that they have passed a Bill—the Public Safety Bill—in the interests, as they believe, of the safety of the general community, and in a matter of this kind it is perfectly obvious that as in other well-regulated communities and countries we have to take that on the credit of the responsible Ministers of the day. We in this Seanad and people outside have neither the opportunity nor the knowledge that they must possess as to the internal conditions and the dangers involved to the public safety.

Therefore, responsibility is cast upon the shoulders of the responsible Government of the day, and under normal conditions and in ordinary days it seems to me that not only this House but the country have to give them credit for their intentions, and have to assume that in their conjoint wisdom they have arrived at the solution which fits the situation. Accordingly they passed this Public Safety Bill which apparently looked as if it was sufficient to deal with the situation, but unfortunately they overlooked a rather evident, as I would have thought, patent Section in the Constitution, Section 47, which practically prescribes an interval of seven days before any Act of the Oireachtas can come into force, the seven days being plainly inserted with a view to enabling steps to be taken to have a referendum on the question should the community so desire.

In order that that interval of seven days should not be allowed to interfere with the public safety in days of difficulty and danger, the Constitution goes on to say that this interval of seven days can be voided by a resolution passed by the Oireachtas that the Act in the interests of the public safety is to come into operation at once. Had such a resolution been passed by the Oireachtas at the time when the Bill was going through its final stages this Constitutional question, in my opinion, could never have arisen, but, as I say, unfortunately that provision seems to have been overlooked by the Government and its advisers, and it is for that reason we are faced with the position we are in to-day. Naturally advantage is taken of this by those interested in obtaining the discharge of political prisoners at present under detention, and application was formally made for what is known as a writ of Habeas Corpus to obtain the release of those men on the ground that there was no Act of Parliament which justified their detention, once the Courts came to the conclusion that a state of war no longer existed because as you know the only justification for the detention of any citizen without trial is the fact that a state of war is existing in the country.

There is an old Latin maxim which illustrates what I am explaining "Salus reipublicæ suprema lex” which, shortly translated, means that the public safety is the paramount and supreme law of the land and all other considerations of law have to give way to it. But as I have said once the Courts came to the conclusion that a state of war ceased to exist it thus became inevitable that if the powers of detention were to be preserved even for the shortest period, an Act of the Oireachtas was necessary. That Act was the Act known as the Public Safety Act, and if, as I say, a resolution was passed in both Houses at the time it was going through its final stages certifying that in the interests of the public safety the Act should come in at once, the seven days interval would have been wiped out and the position would be normal and regular. That not having been done the Government is faced with the position in which they cannot during the seven days and until the expiration of seven days detain in custody men and women who have not been put on trial in the ordinary way

The Government tell us it is for them to decide. Certainly I for myself would not venture to suggest I had any opinion on the subject or was in any position of any kind either to say to myself or to say to you that the existing conditions demand and require a measure of the kind. I say that in every civilised community we have got to trust our Ministers for that. If the Seanad believes as the President has told us that it is essential to the public safety that the powers conferred under this Act having regard to the recent decision of the Court should come into operation at once then, it is for them to bring before us and ask us to pass the measures they think would rectify the position and bring about that. I am not here and it is no part of my duty as Chairman of the Seanad to give legal advice to my colleagues. All I would say is that they should act with deliberation and care in this matter. They should tread very warily and should be satisfied that the proposals the Government now make will close down the curtain on the last act of what I may call this tragedy of errors, that within the last few weeks enveloped the Constitution, and was mainly due to the extreme haste and pressure by which we are compelled to discharge our work.

I must again repeat my regret that with this position present in their minds as it must have been the Government did not introduce the Public Safety Bill and other measures at an earlier stage so as to enable not only the Dáil but this Seanad to give them the consideration and deliberation that they require. However that is passed and again there is no use in regretting the past. We have to provide for the future. If we get the assurance of the President that he is advised by his responsible legal advisers that the present proposition he is making to us in this Bill we are asked now to pass together with the resolution which will be submitted to you under Section 47 of the Constitution, will be the position normally and constitutionally, and that we shall not be asked to repeat the proceedings we are going through to-day by reason of some other gap or defect in the Government's policy, then all I can say to you is: take the Government in the faith of those assurances and let us give them the additional protection they require, leaving the responsibility upon themselves.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

(having resumed the Chair): To put this in order now I shall move that the Bill that has been introduced be read a Second time, that is to say the Public Safety (Emergency Powers) (No. 2) Bill, 1923. Perhaps I should say that this Bill consists of three sections. The first section incorporates in the Bill the recent Public Safety Emergency Powers Act. The second section declares that this new Bill is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace and safety, and that the provisions of Article 47 accordingly are not to apply to it. The last section provides that it is to come into operation immediately upon the signification of the Royal Assent thereto. The motion is that this Bill be a read second time.

I think the Seanad should be grateful to the Chairman for having made the speech that the President should really have made for the purpose of explaining the Constitutional position, in regard to this extraordinary motion before the Seanad. It has been stated several times that there are abnormal conditions obtaining outside, but the real fact is that the only place in which abnormal conditions are obtaining is in the Oireachtas itself. I am not going to say anything to add to the remarks that have been passed, both here and in the Courts, as to the extraordinary confusion and the lack of foresight which has characterised the actions of the Executive Council during the past few weeks, but merely to express the hope that for the future, at all events, we shall witness no such humiliating exhibitions as we have all been treated to during the past few weeks. There are I agree extenuating circumstances. Whether these extenuating circumstances are sufficient excuse for all that has happened or not is of course a matter of opinion. This motion which we are asked to pass this morning in the form of a Bill is somewhat confusing. Yesterday, Senator Jameson introduced a resolution providing for similar contingencies as far as the Defence Forces Bill was concerned.

We were assured that that declaration was necessary in order to make the Bill immediately operative or to bring it outside the ambit of Article 47 of the Constitution. I do not know if it is intended to introduce a No. 2 Defence Force Bill here also or whether it is intended to take the two bills separately, but certainly a great deal of confusion is bound to arise in the mind of people like myself with no legal knowledge and with only common sense powers to bring to bear on matters of this kind. I understand that there is a certain amount of doubt that this Bill before us will effect the purpose for which it is introduced. But we have it on the authority of the Government that it will. Perhaps it would be better for the Government and better for the country that it did not effect the purpose for which it was introduced. It is looked upon as a fearful calamity by some people if the prisoners were released. It may be or it may not. There may be amongst those men a number of criminals. Perhaps there are amongst them a large number of criminals, and it would be regrettable if any number of criminals like that were allowed to stalk the land unpunished. But I take it that the Government have not up to this failed to classify the prisoners in their custody. Surely some classification must have been made between the ordinary political prisoners and the criminals. The Government have now a very effective Detective Department, and that should be able to classify intelligently the prisoners into their proper category. The criminals on one side and ordinary prisoners on the other.

If the contingency again arose that the Government fear if the whole of the prisoners should be released there is nothing to prevent them re-arresting these prisoners immediately and charging them with the crimes of which they have been known to be guilty, or at all events alleged to have been guilty. But I do believe that advantage might be taken of this fortuitous incident to release the ordinary political prisoners. After all, we must realise that they are our own fellow-countrymen and fellow-countrywomen. We cannot keep them permanently in prison. Let us realise that we have got to live with them and their relatives and friends. Anybody who knows anything of Irish mentality or indeed of political mentality anywhere will know that many of these prisoners will remain there until they rot rather than give the simple undertaking simply because it is required by the Government which they look upon as their political opponents. In nearly all amnesties that have taken place in this country in the struggle with the British Government in the past, lots of prisoners were released without giving an undertaking, and the man who did give an undertaking was looked upon as a traitor, and was ashamed to show his face amongst his friends. We must take into consideration that mentality. We are assured now that if these prisoners are released we will have a recrudescence of hostilities. I do not know anyone can convince himself that that is the case.

From everything going on around the country one can see that notwithstanding that gory letter read here the other day, the country as a whole is sick to death of hostilities and violence. I honestly believe that if the prisoners were released to-morrow you could not muster 100 of them that would have the heart to enter upon hostilities again. The whole feeling and moral tone of the country is against it. The prisoners would be themselves glad to get out and return to their homes. There were very favourable conditions which encouraged the trouble last year, and naturally as things went along it developed the primitive instinct in man. One of the greatest reasons was that there was no law, no arm of the law to enforce justice and order. These conditions are very considerably changed. One has only to read the newspapers to find a gradual and increasing return to constitutional activities. We have the statement of a permanent Irregular leader that only one candidate would be put up in each electoral division to test the feelings of the people. We find now that that statement is being departed from. It is quite evident that there has been a general change of mind and heart.

The absolute hopelessness of physical violence has manifested itself. The bitterness of heart and passions reached at the time hostilities ceased have gradually softened down, I hope on both sides. Might it not be a generous gesture of statesmanship now to take advantage of this, particularly in view of the forthcoming election. I do not believe that it would in the least injure the interests of the country. It certainly would not hamper or injure the interests of the Government to take advantage of it. We know what was the attitude of Lincoln after the American Civil War, when he told Parliament that the insurgents of the South were to be treated as if the war had never occurred. It is, I think, in the highest interests of the country that a similar statement or a similar policy should be adopted on the part of our Government to-day. We are a very small country with potential enemies on our border. We cannot afford to rest for any considerable period of time with 12,000 or 14,000 prisoners locked up in internment camps. As I said, we can keep them there indefinitely, and in the end it will have to be realised that they will have to be released, without the undertaking they refused to give. Meanwhile they will be gathering up powerful influence outside, from the mere standpoint of sympathy. We know from amnesty movements in the past what will happen.

After the Fenian rising had failed it was the amnesty movement that rallied to the support of the prisoners, thousands of people who were absolutely opposed to them when they took up arms. It requires only ordinary common sense to know and to realise that holding the prisoners at the present time will simply defeat the very object which is sought to be achieved by keeping them interned. Apart from that there are thousands of people in these internment camps who are absolutely innocent. I have had myself scores of communications with the Minister for Defence in regard to prisoners who have arrested and detained for months, and he has kindly consented to release these prisoners after finding that they were absolutely innocent. Unless these people had somebody who took up their cases for them they would be detained up to the present time. If they were unknown people, without friends they might remain for years there, merely because there was nobody to advocate their case and see that it was investigated. That is a deplorable state of affairs, and one that would turn into rebels people who were loyal citizens. Their friends cannot understand why they are detained and naturally they will have a feeling of bitterness and hostility.

Apart from that, there is the ruinous economic effect which the detention of these prisoners is causing. There are large families suffering cruel hardships because their breadwinners are detained. It was not like this when it was a popular movement, when we were fighting against the British. There were then large funds for the support of the dependants of these people. There are no funds of any consequence to support them to-day. The people themselves are not subscribing to them because they look upon the relatives of the prisoners whether innocent or otherwise with suspicion and hostility. Therefore, quite unintentionally very serious wrongs and hardships are being inflicted, and from that point also the arguments are in favour of a generous gesture on the part of the Government. I believe although this decision was not foreseen, that the law should be allowed to take its course without any extraordinary unconstitutional action such as it is proposed we should take this morning. From that point of view I propose to vote against the Bill not in any spirit of hostility at all against the Government, not in any spirit of obstruction, but simply because I think and it is the opinion of thousands of people outside that the incident might well be taken advantage of to release the prisoners and thereby take one great step towards restoring peace and normal conditions throughout the country.

May I intervene for a moment to correct an interpretation that may be put upon the speech of the Senator who has just spoken. In the first place, I do not, the Government do not, and the people of this country do not accept the parallel that he has drawn between the position of the Government at the present moment and the position of the British Government, which has been operating in this country for the last hundred years in the matter of amnesties. We do not accept that parallel. The position is not the same. There is no parallel and it is not fair to the people of the country to draw any such parallel or to let the people form the impression from the statement that has just been made, that we are exactly in the same position as the British Government was in during the period to which he has referred. We are exercising our authority as a Government from the votes that were cast in June last by the people of this country. The Senator may, perhaps, claim that that was not a fair election, that it was not a free election, and so on. I accept that.

On a point of explanation, may I state that I said nothing at all about the election on the last occasion. I did not say it was not a free election and in regard to the British Government I certainly did not draw any analogy. I said the mentality of the people would be the same and that on that occasion people who were violently opposed to them when they took up arms became friends of the prisoners in jail, and I said we could not overlook the fact that a similar mentality exists to-day. It is but natural in human nature itself that people opposed to the prisoners may become very friendly to them through sympathy.

That is the mentality which for six months of last year we endeavoured by kindness and persuasion and by every possible means open to human ingenuity to bring to a state of normality. It did not succeed, and then, finding ourselves confronted with violence, we brought into play a little more violence than they had possibly contemplated. The result is that you have a very much healthier mentality, not alone amongst the prisoners, but amongst many of their friends and I would question very strongly any undue sympathy for a policy which has been so disastrous, not alone to the material resources of the country but to the moral future of the country.

Again on a point of explanation, I will not allow the President to misinterpret me. He talks of me as if I were expressing sympathy with those who have carried out destruction in the country; I have none.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Do not let us get too sensitive in these matters. There is always a certain amount of criticism and argument, that is always legitimate, and if whenever there is any view suggested of one speaker's sentiments or words that does not quite agree with what his own view of them is, surely it it is not worth while interrupting. The Seanad will be the best judge as to whether the criticism is just or not.

I have no objection to the President interpreting his own feelings, but I cannot have him interpreting my feelings and stating to the Seanad and to the country that anything in my speech savoured of favouring the policy which he condemns and which I equally condemn. That is what I object to.

I take it from the Senator's speech that he criticised the action of the Government with regard to those prisoners and with regard to the policy that they have advocated. I take that as a matter of some importance, because during the whole of last year, on more than one occasion we laid it down that we were prepared to withdraw entirely from the arena of Government and from the political sphere, if I may say so, granted they on their side would also withdraw. At no time during that period were we met by the people on whose behalf the Senator has certainly asked for some consideration and sympathy, with any corresponding accommodation. Certainly now that they have seen the error of their ways and that they have felt some of the disadvantages of the policy they have adopted, and which they ruthlessly imposed on the people of the country, and now that they are feeling the iron heel that they pressed for a long time upon others, and now that they are commencing to squeal, I say that this is the time to let them bear some of these disadvantages for at least a little while longer and let them realise that the people of the country are not going to tolerate any such nonsense in the future. That, I submit, is not at all unreasonable.

The Senator has stated that those people are so high-minded that they will not agree to sign certain forms. I may tell the Senator and any others who may be interested, that we have let out prisoners who did not sign a form at all. We have also allowed out prisoners who have signed forms and we have not published their names. We are not looking for any credit for those things. We are not at any time desirous of imposing any indignity or any humiliation upon those people; all we want is fair consideration. All we want is a fair bargain. If they say, "We will not sign the forms but we will not destroy and we will adopt constitutional methods," the whole thing is over, and there is no more to be said. But we, on our part, say that the dignity of the people has to be considered. Those erring children who have been such an expensive luxury in this country, finding their patriotism does not appeal to the people now, finding that there are no more banks to be robbed and that it is not so easy to rob banks at present, finding there are no more sympathetic purses to be drawn upon because the people are sick and tired of them, and finding that they are placed upon their own resources and are short of funds are now, we are told, to be considered in a sympathetic manner. Is this the time for us to say to them, "Poor erring sisters and brothers, we take you to our bosoms and if you do not rob us, if you do not stab us, if you do not shoot us any more you will be the leaders in this country."

You will do it eventually.

If we do they will, however, bear this in mind: these experiments are not without disadvantages for the people who experiment.

They realise that now.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is not fair that the Senator should be interrupting.

I would like to assure the Seanad that nobody is more anxious than I or the other members of the Government to see the slate wiped clean. We wish this thing over. As far as any persecution of these people is concerned, I may say that we do not wish it, but just as a father sometimes corrects his child, and perhaps feels that correction as much as the child does, so do we consider it is right that these people should feel this thing in such a way that it will not be likely to be brought on again in the future. I could not honestly say to the Seanad that there would be safety in releasing those prisoners. From information I have and from information which is at the disposal of the Government, I could not say so. Nobody would more willingly release those prisoners if it were advisable to do so. Some people may think that there is great pleasure in having surmounted the difficulties of the moment. I may tell you that even at this moment nothing would please me more than to withdraw and get back into private life and have done with all this thing if I were sure that by doing so I would have contributed something towards the establishment of peace in the country. I may assure you that it has not been any pleasure to us to oppose those people with whom we have been associated in the past and to adopt harsh methods towards them. We did it all in the interests of the country and we would do it again to-morrow if it were to secure safety and stability in the country. The Seanad may be quite certain that if at any time it appears to us to be safe to release those prisoners we will do so, but at this moment we would be failing in our duty and we would not be insuring the safety of the country if we were to do it.

There are just one or two points I would like to dwell upon. One is the rather irregular parallel that Senator O'Farrell drew with America. He forgot altogether to remind us of the result of the clemency of President Lincoln. It resulted in his assassination. There was another slightly confused expression which savours rather of the suppression of the truth, and it is this. The peace which we are enjoying at present, how was it brought about? It was brought about by the superhuman resolution and courage of a small group of men who represent the Government of this country. In the enjoyment of the fruits of that courage we are now being asked to embarrass that Government.

I am sorry this debate has taken this turn on the Second Reading. The real point we have to decide is whether we are going to pass this extra Bill or not. With most of what Senator O'Farrell has said I agree. I cannot, however, agree with his parallel about the insurgents of the South, because although they did not approve of the Government they at least recognised the State. However, we need not go into this matter. On the Second Reading of the Public Safety Bill I pleaded for an amnesty for the prisoners. My point was that it should be a generous gesture—to use the words of Senator O'Farrell—on the part of the Government, but I hold that to let them all out now as a result of this fortuitous circumstance would not achieve the same result. I was opposed to the other Bill and I voted against it in all its Stages. I think the proper attitude that I should take on this measure is simply to abstain.

"Tis an ill wind that blows nobody good." While I agree with all that the Cathaoirleach has said in regard to regret as to the present circumstances and the circumstances that have arisen which were the cause of this Bill, it may be there are some compensations. I for one as a believer and a firm believer in the Constitution, am not altogether sorry to see those who did their best to destroy it taking advantage of it and finding now that it may be used even for their protection. I take the same attitude towards this Bill as I did on the other one. I do not, however, intend to oppose the Bill, because I hold when we passed the other Bill it would be ridiculous not to take the necessary steps to allow it to have the force of law. It is rather regrettable that we have got into a discussion as to the question of the release of prisoners. I, too, agree with most of what Senator O'Farrell said, with just this exception: if and when those who have been tackling the State are prepared to recognise the State and return to absolutely constitutional methods, then I will agree with him. I absolutely welcome the statement of the President that when that occurs the Government is prepared to consider an amnesty. I think it would be well that we should receive an assurance, even more explicit than we have received from the President, that after careful consideration he is satisfied the Bill does what is required of it. I am not a lawyer, and I have been somewhat puzzled by the meaning of certain phrases. I am not quite sure, and perhaps it would be safer to make it clear that both this and the previous Act were declared necessary for the immediate preservation of peace, health and safety. I throw out that suggestion as one that should be considered for the purpose of clarity.

I want to raise one point in connection with the Bill. I have a distinct recollection that when this Bill was going through the Committee Stage the Minister in charge accepted an amendment that I proposed. In reading the Bill which is published on the White Paper to-day I do not see any reference to that amendment. I would like to call the attention of the Seanad to the amendment that I proposed. I proposed in Section 5, Sub-Section (3) to delete in lines 46 and 47 the words "nor less than £50." Immediately I got up to propose that amendment. The Minister in charge of the Bill said he would accept it, and I said I was much obliged and sat down. The amendment was accepted by the Minister. That is a distinct recollection of mine, and those with me.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It would be impossible to rectify that now, because that Bill is now an Act of Parliament.

Then the Act of Parliament is wrong. The Act of Parliament is not a correct record of what took place.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That, I am quite certain, has happened before now, but there it is and as long as it stands there and is not amended by any supplementary Act we have no control or power over it.

Then the position is that no matter what happens, when the Bill is printed if the printer puts in anything that is not a correct record of this Assembly it has to be left so? I say that is wrong and this is another constitutional position that I would like to see cleared up.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is not a constitutional position.

With all respect I suggest that I moved a certain amendment which was accepted by the Minister without a division, and I say that the words I moved to delete from the Bill are contained in the Bill, and, therefore, the Bill is not a correct record.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is an Act.

Excuse my ignorance, I did not know the difference between a Bill and an Act, not having legal knowledge.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That assumption of ignorance does not fit you at all. It is a question of strict constitutional phraseology. The Seanad can always amend the Bill as long as it is a Bill and is before them, but this is now an Act and nothing can amend it except a supplemental Act.

Then the printer is the person who makes the law?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

No.

If the printer prints a Bill that is not correct—

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I have told you three times that it is an Act, and once it becomes an Act and has received Royal Assent no matter what errors, clerical or otherwise that are in it, they can only be corrected by a supplemental Act.

It is admitted then that this Act is not a correct record of what took place in the Oireachtas, and it is the duty of the Government or somebody on their behalf to amend it, otherwise the printers are our legislators.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

You can tell that to the Government.

I tell it to the Seanad.

I am under the impression that the Bill as it was sent from this Seanad to the Dáil never came back to us. There were several amendments inserted, one that the Senator speaks of and another about the inspection of prisoners. I may be wrong, the Bill may have come back, but I do not believe it did.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I think those amendments were accepted.

I do not pretend to know the procedure, but I thought that in every case of a Bill having gone back to the Dáil with amendments it ought to come back to the Seanad.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I understand we received official notice from the Ceann Comhairle that the Bill had been passed with the amendments we had inserted.

If that is so I suggest that the Senator is in perfect order. For all I know the amendment I proposed about the inspection of prisoners may not have been inserted as I have not seen the Bill.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That is not my fault. What is to prevent you looking at it? This is a very inconvenient and awkward discussion. If you want to see whether your amendments have been accepted or not you can get a copy of the Act which was circulated this morning.

The amendment is in the Act.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I only wish to remind the Seanad that once a Bill becomes an Act of Parliament you cannot alter it by discussion or by suggesting that something has been left out by a mistake, or that something has been inserted through an inadvertence. If that is so, and the Oireachtas is satisfied that that is so, then the remedy is an amending Bill. If the Senator thought it worth while it might be possible when we get to the Committee Stage of this Bill to put in an amendment. I have myself some doubts whether it would be sufficient here in this Bill to say that such and such a Section of the incorporated Act shall be amended and the following substituted for it. It might be open to do that because we are dealing with a Bill which incorporates the Act referred to, and before we incorporate the Act referred to it might be-possible to amend it. I do not advise that course as I think it would be very awkward and somewhat irregular.

Senator Farren made a statement that he understood the Minister in charge of the Bill accepted an amendment of his with regard to this £50. If he accepted that amendment that is in our Official Report and if it is not in our Official Report then he is mistaken. I wish that to be made perfectly clear because I have known these things to occur before. Members having to consider amendments to an intricate Bill in a great hurry very often thought that the Minister had accepted an amendment, or had not accepted an amendment. If it is not in our Official Report then, of course, the Reporters, whom I have every confidence in, and who report officially, have not taken it down. That is a point I wish to make, because it is sure to arise.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

There is another consideration, that the Minister only speaks for himself, and that when a Bill goes back from the Seanad to the Dáil, even though the Minister might be satisfied to have a particular amendment inserted or changed, the Dáil may not consent or agree.

That would be in the Official report, too.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I may say that the Clerk's record in regard to that particular amendment is that it was lost.

That finishes it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That only shows you how difficult it is. A man's mind cannot go back very well to all sorts of things that happen when we are rushing Bills through at this speed. It is very likely that Senator Farren's recollection may be wrong. I am in a position to clear up the point raised by Senator Farren now. This question of £50 arises in two places in the Act. It comes in under Sub-section (2) of Section 5, and, as originally introduced in the Seanad, the words were "and may in addition be sentenced to a fine of £50." Senator Farren moved an amendment striking out the word "of" and substituting "not exceeding." That amendment was accepted by the Government and it appears in the Bill, and I think it is possible that the Senator may have confused the two, as they both relate to the same subject matter. Certainly the record of the Seanad is that the second amendment dealing with the £50 was not accepted by the Government.

There is some mistake, because as a matter of fact Senator MacPartlin moved previous to my amendment a similar amendment to delete the words. That amendment was put to the Seanad and defeated. Immediately afterward I got up to move a similar amendment where the words occurred later in the same clause and the moment I got up to move the amendment the Minister said "That is accepted," and I said "I am much obliged," and sat down. We were astonished here that he did not accept the previous amendment which was on identically the same terms. That is my recollection of what transpired. When the Minister said "I will accept it." I said "There is no necessity to bother you with a speech." It was never put.

Question put: "That this Bill be read a second time."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 5.

  • William Barrington.
  • Thomas Westropp Bennett.
  • John C. Counihan.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • Dowager Countess of Desart.
  • J.C. Dowdall.
  • Sir Thomas Esmonde.
  • Oliver St. John Gogarty.
  • Earl of Granard.
  • Henry S. Guinness.
  • Arthur Jackson.
  • Right Hon. Andrew Jameson.
  • Sir John Keane.
  • Patrick W. Kenny.
  • Earl of Kerry.
  • Joseph Clayton Love.
  • James MacKean.
  • John MacLoughlin.
  • General Sir Bryan Mahon.
  • Earl of Mayo.
  • James Moran.
  • Michael O'Dea.
  • Bernard O'Rourke.
  • William O'Sullivan.
  • Col. Sir Hutcheson Poe.
  • William Butler Yeats.

Níl

  • William Cummins.
  • Michael Duffy.
  • Thomas Farren.
  • Thomas MacPartlin.
  • John Thomas O'Farrell.
Question put and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

If it is the wish of the Seanad that this Bill should be put through its remaining stages it will be necessary to suspend Standing Orders.

I beg to move that the Standing Orders be suspended.

I beg to second.

Bill put through its remaining stages and passed.

I beg to move the following resolution:—

That it is hereby declared that the Bill entitled "The Public Safety (Emergency Powers) (No. 2) Bill, 1923," which has this day been passed by this House, is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace and safety, and that accordingly the provisions of Article 47 of the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann shall not apply to that Bill.

I beg to second.

Resolution put and agreed to.
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