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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1923

Vol. 2 No. 5

PRIVATE BILL PROCEDURE. - MOTION BY THE LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH.

The following motion stood in the name of the Leas-Chathaoirleach:—
"That during the current Session the promoters of any Private Bill may publish the notice of intention required by Standing Order 8 during the months of December and January, instead of October and November, and that the dates for the deposit of plan and documents, the notice to owners, the deposit of copies of the Bill and of petitions against the Bill shall be correspondingly altered."

Might I ask leave to withdraw my motion?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Why not leave it stand adjourned for a fortnight?

Very well; it depends on the adoption of the Report.

I should prefer to hold over my motion on the Order Paper. Some members of the Seanad who were to speak have gone away. If we are going to sit to-morrow, I propose we should hold it over until then.

I second that.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

As far as I can see, there will be very little left for to-morrow. The only thing remaining is your motion, and that of Sir John Keane, and I do not know whether it would be desirable or necessary to have a second sitting for that. I am informed a fortnight would be too long to allow for the sending in of amendments, having regard to dates on which those notices must be published. The fortnight I mentioned would render those orders inoperative for a year. A limit of five days from this is the most that would be allowed. The matter would stand over for a fortnight, but the amendments must be sent in within five days.

To whom shall we send them?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Send them to the Clerk to the Committee. Mr. Christie is in charge. He has the whole thing at his fingers' ends and you could not be in better hands.

Agreed.

I move:—

"That, with a view to the establishment of two important industries in Saorstát Eireann, the Seanad suggests to the Government the desirability of offering substantial prizes for—

1st. The most efficient type of internal combustion engine developing 15 B.H.P. while using crude alcohol alone as the motor spirit;

2nd. The most suitable and economic crude alcohol for the development of power, so treated that it could not be consumed as a drink.

"Both to be manufactured in Saorstát Eireann.

"And that for the purposes of this competition, temporary exemption from excise duty be granted on such alcohol to bona fide competitors."

I should ask you to approach the consideration of this motion from a slightly different standpoint from that which we have adopted in many cases in the past, for several reasons. In the first place, the Seanad was supposed to be appointed for the special attainments of its members so that certain interests should be represented which would not be likely to obtain representation otherwise. It seems to me that it is our duty to suggest anything which will make for the improvement of the country, and which might be overlooked if attention were not called to it here. It might be squeezed out by the process of ordinary legislation. I may be told that the introduction of such legislation is a matter for the Executive Council, and in this I quite agree, but it is possible, in fulfilling their primary duty of establishing order and law, that such a question as this would escape their attention. I hope to show that the effects which would be wrought in a country like Ireland by the opening up of new fields of enterprise and labour would have a stabilising effect almost impossible to over-estimate. At present a great number of people are interned who will be returning to civil life. There are also a great number of soldiers who will be disbanded, and we have only to look at the history of countries around us to see what a disturbing effect the return of these men will have if no fresh sources of employment are opened up. A great number are unemployed at present, and if these other men are thrown on the labour market you will only have an extra number of people to deal with who can find no employment and who are therefore discontented.

I can hardly fancy any project which, with a smaller expenditure of public funds, would provide for the employment of more people than that which I have tabled. We are all aware that internal combustion engines can be run on a great many spirits besides petrol, and any money spent on fuel which can be produced in this country and which will prevent money going abroad for petrol is so much money kept at home. You can hardly go through a village in which you will not find garage after garage, practically kept going by the sale of imported cars, and if you could fancy the amount of employment which would be given by the manufacture of cars here, instead of bringing in cars from abroad, and of alcohol on which to run these cars, you can see the vast amount of work that would be given.

I remember some years ago being brought into close contact with a man whose name was a household word in connection with science and invention, a man who ran a very good second to Edison, and I will never forget the opinion that he expressed, that the world at large needs power which can be easily and cheaply developed and generally distributed. There are very large aggregations of power in various places, in Niagara, in the Falls of the Zambezi, in the Himalayes, and the Andes, but of what use is the power of Niagara to the plains of Texas? Of what use is the power derivable from the Zambezi to the veldt of South Africa, thousands of miles away, and of what use is the power derived from the Himalayas to the plains of India, or from the Andes to the pampas of South America? What you want is to have the power available. This man looked to the development of the internal combustion engine, and he was at that time engaged on the perfection of an engine which was run on gas, the lightest of motive powers. He has left behind an engine which is one of the most perfect combustion engines we have, and he said that if such engines could be supplied all over the world, being light and easily handled, they would completely supersede steam, which entailed the use of heavy machinery and a constant stream of coal which was, owing to its bulk, difficult to convey.

I think that anyone who is familiar with these things will know that it is not a new idea to suggest that this engine could be run on alcohol. Some few years ago all the motor papers were full of it. An agitation at that time was occasioned because some people who were greatly interested in oil had cornered the supply. They had put up the price of petrol, and everybody said, "Let us produce some spirit which will compete with petrol." I may be asked why it has not been done, and the reason is, I think, very simple. Manufacturers had no great inducement to do it. In order to make it a success, you would have to be certain that you could get the supply of alcohol, and every State has its own regulations, its own Customs.

For many years several of the States of the United States had prohibition in force, and it has now been extended to the whole country, and unless this spirit could be produced in a country like Ireland, which is now in control of its own affairs, and where the supply of alcohol could be assured for Ireland itself, I do not see how it could be done for the world at large. If it were done here and suitable regulations were made by which people could produce this alcohol and denature it, an enormous field for employment would be opened. It is well known that it can be produced from almost any vegetable matter which contains sugar. It can be produced from beet and from rotten potatoes, and the number of people who would obtain employment from the growing of the materials alone would be simply enormous. For these reasons I beg to propose this resolution, and I am quite sure that if we succeed in getting the thing through, we shall have done a very good day's work for the country.

I should like to make a few remarks on this matter as it strikes me, not in the least out of any spirit of hostility, but rather to face some of the difficulties that may arise in the practical application of the proposal. The proposal falls under two heads. First, the construction of an efficient type of internal combustion engine; secondly, the manufacture of the power to run that engine. I quite see that a substantial prize might produce an engine made in the Free State, but I do not see that it will therefore follow that that engine could be produced in quantity in the Free State. It will be produced in quantity undoubtedly where capital will be thrown in and where there are skilled artisans and the factory organisation which is lacking here.

It will only be produced where these conditions to facilitate economic production exist. That will lead, however, to questions of production, and it raises a very big question now. That is all I have to say regarding the production of the engine. There is a distinct difference between producing a single engine, a model, which is very expensive, on account of the tooling work involved, and being organised for mass production. Of course, it would be no advantage whatever unless there is quantity production within the country, but I do not speak as an expert. I imagine you could produce power alcohol purely from a laboratory point of view, sufficient to carry out an experiment, but that will have no regard to the economics of the problem. I have seen figures, and I am sorry the Senator did not give some, of the cost of producing power alcohol in quantities, for any figures I have seen are entirely prohibitive as compared with the price of benzol or petrol.

It would not be of much advantage to produce a small quantity of power alcohol on what you might call a laboratory scale, without any regard to the cost of production, if you are not also able to produce that in quantity as an economic problem, and to produce that in large quantity suitable for general industrial purposes would entail a considerable capital and factory organisation which will never be forthcoming until it can be proved that power alcohol can compete in price with petrol and other fuel for internal combustion engines. I hope the Senator will understand I do not make these criticisms in any hostile spirit, but in order to show that there are practical difficulties which his proposal would not meet.

I rise to support this motion in the interests of cheap power. I believe that with the knowledge we have of alcoholic products in this country, we have brains which will be capable of dealing with this particular item probably in a totally different method to what we have been accustomed to. I should very much like the Government to facilitate an investigation as to the possibilities of this power development by alcohol. The chief difficulty has been that of the Excise. The matter has been discussed for many years. It has been the subject of Commissions and Committees, and I think it has always been turned down by the problem of Excise and the control of the sale of the potable spirit, the fear being it would be used as drink. It is simply with a view to endeavouring to get these matters cleared up from our Irish point of view that I support Senator Barrington in his suggestions.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

You are seconding his motion?

Yes, I am. We have been face to face with the great difficulty of costly fuels. At present petrol is falling in price, but the question as to whether we shall be able to obtain petrol in another 10 or 20 years is a very doubtful one. I think it is quite time for the Government of this country, and in England, if I were speaking for it, to investigate these natural and almost domestic sources from which alcohol might be formed. It is for this reason that I second and support Senator Barrington's resolution.

I wish to support the resolution, and I do so because although I agree with Senator Sir John Keane that it would be better if it were possible to have given us further particulars as to the probable cost of extraction from any of the matters referred to by Senator Barrington, it seems to me one thing is essential, and that is to encourage industries in every possible way, and especially new industries. There is no doubt that if the amount of manufactured goods that come into Ireland in connection with such matters as motor cars, petrol, and articles of that description could be made at home, it would open up quite a new era of prosperity. Many attempts have been made in the last few years to interest the Government in the question of power in connection with water power resources, but if it would be possible to get crude oil that could be manufactured cheaply it would open up a very much greater question than we imagine. I accordingly support the motion.

I also support the motion. The question involved is this, Ireland has a small quantity of coal and a large quantity of turf, but neither is sufficient for the purpose of our manufactures, or the manufactures which we would wish to have large enough to balance with the agricultural population, and we have to search for some other means to make up for what the English have. The English have coal in abundance, and it is not so necessary for them to use alcohol, because they import a great deal of oil. They and the Americans have practically a monopoly of the oil of the world, and they can rig the market as they like, and stop it going, except for themselves, in any way they wish. Practically all the oil of the world is controlled by great trusts, and we may be one of these days left out. It is our business to see how we can make up in our own industries something to take the place of what other countries have.

We must increase our water power, and our turf supply, and if it can be done, our coal supply, but none of these goes far enough, and for that reason it is extremely important that Ireland should fill up the gap by industrial alcohol, which could be produced here in very large quantities.

There is no doubt that hitherto it has not obtained great support in England, because England does not require it. There are difficulties which have been already pointed out. It is only a question of making it undrinkable. One or two people have asked for figures. A Committee was appointed by the Second Dáil to investigate the various resources of Ireland. Some of the members of the Seanad were members of that Committee. We drew up a series of reports on various subjects—water power, coal, cattle, etc. Among them was a report on industrial alcohol. A copy of that report can be obtained by applying to the Clerk, and I think Senators will find in it a great deal of information. I think there is no doubt that this would not only increase the manufacturing power of Ireland but increase the agricultural power, because potatoes are the principal source from which it can be supplied. Ireland is a potato-producing country, and potatoes can be much more largely grown here than elsewhere. For that reason I desire to support the motion.

I also wish to support the motion from the point of view that I have for long thought industrial alcohol could be produced in this country. It was largely produced in Germany and largely used. In America it was very little used for some time, but during the last 8 or 10 years Excise protection has been given and it has been more used there. As Senator Colonel Moore has pointed out, we have very few sources of power here. We have a sympathetic Government now and they can give Excise facilities which are really the block against this. If this suggestion were adopted and the matter investigated, I feel an industry would be opened up for the country which would be of great advantage.

I also wish to support the resolution, because I think it would add another important rural industry which we want badly to help tillage in this country. This is not a new idea. Alcohol is largely used on the Continent for power, and I take it that the substantial prizes will only be necessary in order to improve the type of engine and also, if possible, to cheapen the machinery. I think it is generally admitted that the more suitable and economic crude alcohol for the development of power is to be obtained from potatoes. It can also be obtained from farmyard manure and from peat. In fact, there are many sources from which alcohol can be obtained, but the Excise rules stand in the way. If this was considered in certain quarters, I do not think those rules would be considered unalterable. I do not believe the Government, if they wish to encourage industries of the kind, would hesitate to allow such a modification of the rules as will enable this great industry to be established.

Might I just reply to one or two questions. I did not think when I set out to propose this that there was any need to go into the really elementary question of the use of alcohol. It is a thing which has been tried all over the world and been proved to be absolutely a success. I would like to remove Senator Sir John Keane's fears that there is any difficulty about the construction of engines. There is no difficulty about the construction of them. You can use alcohol in a petrol engine, but you naturally will not get as good results from alcohol burned in a petrol engine as you will from petrol. I know that during the war the Americans were running the light railways in Cuba, and those light railways were run on internal combustion engines. Falling short in the supply of petrol, they turned to use alcohol, and the difficulty they found was in denaturing it so that it could not be drunk by the people. They got over that successfully by introducing all sorts of unpleasant drugs which did not interfere with the gas-giving qualities of the alcohol. They found that using it in the ordinary engines that were supplied for petrol they were able to get from 65 to 80 per cent. of the power with alcohol that they got from petrol. The only difficulty in getting the same power from alcohol as from petrol is in altering the design of the engine. You have to alter the proportions of the engine slightly. The flash-point in one case differs from the flash-point in the other. In one case you want a larger cylinder with a smaller stroke. In the other case you get the same power exactly by a smaller diameter engine with a larger stroke. If you have a 100 h.p. engine you have only to alter the proportions of the engine to get the 100 h.p. from alcohol. It is such an elementary question that really I did not think it was necessary to dwell upon it. I know that Senator Guinness had a lot of statistics about the cost and how it was to be prepared, but unfortunately he has gone away. However, I am going to throw a certain amount of light on the cost. Raw crude alcohol in pre-war times could be purchased at something about 4d. per gallon. Supposing it could be purchased now at three times that sum, and if you put it down at 1/- per gallon, it would still compare very favourably with petrol.

Why do not people produce it now?

Because of the Excise regulations. I am not suggesting for a moment that these engines run on crude alcohol could be used all over the world. They cannot, owing to the Excise difficulties, but in a country like this, where the Government control the Excise, and can make their own regulations, there is no reason why they should not allow crude alcohol to be prepared under certain regulations within the Free State, so that alcohol could be obtainable. That is the reason alcohol was not used in the past, and if that difficulty is removed you will have plenty of alcohol, and plenty of engines running with alcohol. There was only one other question raised, and that was in reference to the cost of the engine. Senator Sir John Keane said that an engine produced with a certain amount of tool work would cost more. That is so. It is not so much a question of tools as the production of models. Of course, the first engine has to bear the entire cost of the models. It is for that reason that I suggest a substantial premium would be necessary. In the first case, you must give people some security that they will be able to get the fuel, and also give some security that if they get the fuel they will get a certain amount of protection until they get back the first costs. That is the reason prizes should be given, and I think it would be a sound policy for the Government to give them.

Motion put and agreed to.
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