The next matter is a motion by Senator Sir John Keane. There is a motion, by way of amendment to that, standing in the name of Senator MacLysaght, and there is a motion also standing in the name of Senator Colonel Moore. I want to suggest to those who put down the various motions what I think would be desirable, in view of the situation which exists, and which may be known to Senator Sir John Keane, but which, perhaps is not known to Senator Colonel Moore, as regards the staff and arrangements between the two Houses. The Seanad will recollect that they have a Committee on Standing Orders, and this Committee brought in an interim report on the 13th of March of this year, which referred to the fact that a conference had been directed between the two Houses, with regard to the question of the staff of both Houses, and the report to which I have referred contained recommendations resulting from that joint conference. These recommendations were adopted by the Seanad, and one of them was this: The question of Standing Orders, regulating intercommunication between the two Houses, was discussed. It was agreed that these matters could best be settled by a joint conference between the Standing Orders Committee of the two Houses, and it was decided to recommend to the Seanad that a Message be sent to the Dáil requesting approval to such a joint conference. In addition to that, the Seanad agreed, at the request of the Dáil, to appoint a member to a Joint Committee to consider and go into the whole question of the staffing of the Oireachtas, and that Committee consisted of the Minister for Finance, the Speaker of the Dáil, and the Chairman of the Seanad. We met on several occasions. We went very fully into the matter, and in the result we prepared a report which was discussed with the President about a fortnight ago, and one or two suggestions came from him, which I, with my colleagues on this Committee, have to go into again. Substantially speaking, I should tell the House that our recommendations come to this, that with the exception of the position of the Clerk and the Assistant Clerk, all the remaining staff should be a joint staff. That is to say, the same thing also applies to the Dáil, with very few exceptions, excluding, of course, the Speaker and Deputy Speaker. Their entire staff and ours is to be a joint staff. The object we had there, of course, is economy, because that joint staff will not be attached all their time to either House, and we can always have them available according as their services are required, whether in the Dáil or here, and we can get on with a much smaller staff than was originally anticipated. So far as the Seanad is concerned, if this report of the Committee on which the Minister for Finance and myself acted, is adopted by the Dáil, as I believe it will, and by the Seanad when it comes up, there will be no staff actually or technically belonging to this House, except two—the Clerk of the House and the Assistant Clerk.
The Committee on Standing Orders recommended, and also the Committee dealing with the position of officers, the appointment of an Examiner of Private Bills who would also act as Counsel to the Seanad, but on subsequent consideration when the Joint Committee on Private Bills was appointed, they came to the conclusion that we could work with one Private Bill staff, that there should be only one office, and that it should be worked by one official, and by a Joint Standing Committee for dealing with Standing Orders for Private Bills. That Standing Committee produced the Standing Orders, and they have been accepted and passed in both Houses. The Speaker and myself, with, I think, the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, came to the conclusion that we would not require the extensive and expensive establishment in connection with Private Bills we originally contemplated, because these Standing Orders are so detailed and so minute, and I venture to say, though I had some hand in making them, so plain, that we have come to the conclusion that an established Civil Servant would be quite competent to discharge the duty of Examiner of Private Bills. That would considerably reduce the original estimate for the staffing of the Seanad or the Dáil. At this Conference, the Minister for Finance and myself came to the conclusion that we could dispense with the second Assistant Clerk in the Seanad, that is to say that his position should be made such that he would be available for working on the joint staff of the two Houses. Once we get our Private Bills into operation, we shall have Committees sitting, I hope, dealing with these Private Bills. These Committees will require Clerks, and the staff we have suggested should form the staff of both Houses. It includes a certain number of clerks who would be available to act as clerks to Private Bill Committees when they are sitting, in either House, and the proposal is that the third Assistant Clerk in the Seanad should be transferred to that staff and should be available to serve in either House when required in regard to Private Bills Committees. That would then, as I have said, reduce the exclusive staff of this Seanad to two—the Clerk and the Assistant Clerk. All the rest would be, as I have said, members of a joint staff. If the Seanad wishes I can give them the particulars of these officials that would form the joint staff. However, as this report is not yet in its completed form and has yet to come before the Seanad and the Dáil, probably it would be wiser for me not to go into any further details. The only reason I have mentioned what I have stated is, that in view of this report being practically completed and this Committee that you appointed still sitting to deal with it, I think it would be more in the interests of both Houses if the motions which stand in the names of Senator Colonel Moore and Senator Sir J. Keane were adjourned until after the Christmas recess. By that time, I think, this report will have been completed and will be coming before the Seanad and the Dáil for acceptance. If it is accepted it will cover a considerable portion, though not all, of the ground that would be covered by these motions. I do not want these motions to be taken off the Order Paper. I am only suggesting that the discussion upon them would be more useful and help us better if the Seanad had before them in its completed and accepted form the report of this Committee which is working on the same lines.
