I wish to say a few words on this matter which has been introduced by Senator Bagwell, because it touches the fringe of a much bigger question that will inevitably arise when we come to consider the subsequent sections of this Bill. I refer now to the fact, greatly to be regretted, I think, that the Seanad of the country are asked to commit themselves to a Bill, containing many revolutionary sections, which will inevitably involve very large outlay, without the slightest information as to the probable cost. In a speech I made on the Second Reading of this Bill I pointed out that when the Committee were invited to take up the consideration of what the new Judiciary should be, and to make recommendations to the Government, that Committee was led to believe that simultaneously with the constitution of the Judiciary there would be a reorganisation of the staff and a setting up of the machinery necessary to carry out the Bill itself.
The invitation, extended to every member of the Committee, was put in such terms that it was calculated to convey that impression, because they were invited, not merely to make recommendations as to the new Judiciary, but also to make recommendations as to the reorganisation of the staff, and as to the machinery that would be necessary for the purpose of setting this Bill in motion. Speaking for myself, and only for myself, I say here deliberately that I would have hesitated long and often before being a party to the making of the recommendations contained in this Bill, were it not that I believed it was the intention of the Government, before the Bill was set in motion, to have its machinery set up and its staff re-organised, so as to be in a position to tell the Seanad, the Dáil and the country, before they committed themselves to it irrevocably, what the expense was likely to be. In this connection I would like to read to the Seanad some words that fell from the lips of the President yesterday, if he will allow me say so, in a very wise and statesmanlike speech. His text was: "That we must balance our national Budget," and on that text he said this:
"Within the national Budget, then, they must look for any improvements that were to be effected, and there was no use in tabling very attractive programmes the expense of which it was beyond the capacity of the country to bear.
"It would be necessary always to consider that, while they occupied the position of trustees of the nation, they must see that no inroads were made on the reserves of the nation that future generations would be called upon to pay for.
"They must then consider every service in relation to its costs and value. They must balance normal services with abnormal services, and they must be prepared to meet and defeat extravagant proposals, even when these extravagant proposals were fortified by arguments that, if a serious national crisis were to arise to-morrow, the Government would not hesitate to borrow large sums of money to deal with it.
"Once they started in that direction there was no limit to the amount the people would be called upon to bear, and the ultimate future of the country would be seriously compromised by having to pay extravagant sums for services which, even if secured, might not fulfil all the promises made about them."
I venture to say, applying these words, that it is an abnormal thing that the country, the Seanad and the Dáil, should be asked to pledge themselves to all the recommendations that are put forward in this Bill, and to the changes it must inevitably introduce into our Judiciary, with consequent heavy cost, without the slightest indication of what that cost is going to be. I cannot imagine, and certainly never heard of any great measure of this kind which must inevitably involve the country in obligations amounting to thousands of pounds, being introduced into any Parliament or assembly without the Government giving to that assembly some estimate at least of what the expense is going to be. We are taking this plunge in the dark—absolutely in the dark—as to what it is going to involve the country in financially. I would again urge the Government, before these Courts come into operation, that they should organise the staff, that they should organise the machinery, and, before the Bill is actually put on the Statute Book, that they should come before the Houses and tell them what the estimate is going to be, what they anticipate the cost will be, so that the country will at least know the obligation it is taking on itself, and not be in a position afterwards of bringing the Seanad, the Dáil or the Government to task for letting them in for some extravagance, some liability far in excess of anything they anticipated.
May I give an illustration of what I mean. I said that I would never commit myself, and speaking only for myself, to many of the recommendations in our Committee's Report had it not been in the belief that the Government before giving effect to them would make up their own minds and take the country into their confidence as to what the cost was going to be. I speak more particularly in regard to the expenses connected with the Circuit Courts. I had in my mind, owing to the abolition we recommended of the divisions that hitherto existed in the High Court, by which the High Court is set apart into certain water-tight compartments, there might have been an opportunity for a good deal of economy in the staff, and that the redundant staff could be used for the purpose of the offices that would become essential in the new Circuit Courts. I do not know whether it is accurate or not, but it has certainly been stated publicly in the newspapers, and I have been informed by some of the responsible officials that these statements are accurate, that since our Report was presented, nearly nine months ago, many drastic economies have been effected in the staff of the High Court. People there in a position to know state that these economies have reduced that staff to a minimum, and that the changes under this Bill will not permit of any further reduction in the High Courts staff.
That means the country is going to be confronted with an unestimated and an enormous expenditure in connection with the Circuit Courts. They are to become, for the first time, really High Courts. They are getting powers to enter up judgments, to register judgments, and a variety of things that will involve in every Circuit Court a reproduction, not perhaps on the same scale, but a reproduction of all the staff that is at present attached to the High Court and the Supreme Court in Dublin. What that will cost with all these stenographers as well as the other expenses, I cannot possibly estimate. It will be an enormous bill. While I am not suggesting for a moment that the changes may not be well worth the money, I do at least suggest to the Government that they would be well advised before they finally put this measure on the Statute Book to inform themselves of what they apparently have not yet arrived at, namely, what the estimated cost is going to be, and take the Dáil, the Seanad and the country into their confidence on the matter.
The only suggestion we have ever had as to the expense that will be involved in these great revolutionary changes is to be found in the White Paper. That is wholly illusory. Any one who has read it knows, and in fact the Government themselves state on the face of it, that they are the purest speculations and that they are not to be relied upon as accurate in any way. As I say, we are asked now to embark upon this new change, this revolution in the judicial system. If we put these courts actually in motion it would be too late for us to go back if we repent of the expense. Surely, as a matter of ordinary business prudence, and of ordinary common sense, it is the duty of the Government before they set up these new courts with all the consequent machinery they will necessarily entail to inform themselves in the first place of something of the nature of what the extra cost is going to be. When they have so informed themselves they should communicate it to the Dáil, the Seanad and the country so that the Houses of Parliament and the country may, if they so wish, and before it is too late, say "this experiment is going to cost too much. It is not going to be worth the money and we are not in favour of undertaking it."
I believe this experiment will be worth the money, but at the same time I cannot conceal from myself, and I would be unfair to my colleagues in the Seanad if I attempted to conceal from myself the fact that it would involve a very large outlay, indeed. It will entail a very heavy extra burden on the public and upon suitors. and, therefore, I would suggest to the Government once more before this Bill is put on the Statute Book, that there should be issued to the members of each House, and to the public, a detailed statement, an estimate of a real and bona fide character of what the extra expense and cost of this experiment is going to be.
